#2432 - 乔什·杜宾

伊克不是那种会惹是生非的人。

Ike is not the guy to pick a fight with.

他其实是在为妻子的名誉挺身而出。

He was standing up for his wife's honor, really.

你看。

And, look.

有时候你惹错了人，我之前说什么来着？

Sometimes you pick a fight with the wrong person and you what did I say?

你瞎折腾就会知道后果。

You fuck around and find out.

有很多人就是一直瞎折腾，直到吃够了苦头。

There's a lot of people that fuck around a lot until they find out.

听起来这家伙可能就是那种人。

And it sounds like this guy might have been one of those people.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我的意思是，也许？

I mean Perhaps?

也许。

Perhaps.

据称。

Allegedly.

就是觉得有些人一辈子都卷在冲突里，老哥，他们就是走不出这个模式。

It just seems like there's people that are involved in conflict their whole fucking life, man, and they never get out of that pattern.

我不懂。

I don't get it.

是啊。

Yeah.

不健康的人。

Unhealthy people.

他们形成了一个模式。

They develop a pattern.

他们形成了某种思维和行为模式。

They develop a pattern of thinking and behaving.

你知道的？

You know?

嗯，

Well,

我不确定是不是因为我有同理心，但我试着去理解，你在想什么？

I don't know if it's the empath in me, but I try to see, like, what are you thinking?

你为什么不能意识到我已经走错路了？

Why can't you realize I've I've gone down the wrong path?

让我调整一下方向。

Let me course correct.

而你最终只会得出一些理论。

And you just end up with theories.

我的意思是，你看。

I mean, look.

我能理解为什么一位前侦探会担心责任问题，所以他们不能直接说：‘嘿，我这段时间其实一直在做这个。’

I I can understand why a former detective might be concerned about liability so they can't just say, well, here's what I was up to all this time.

我想我能理解这种想法，而不仅仅是说‘我走错路了’。

I guess I can understand that, but I can understand the thinking and not just saying, I've gone down the wrong path.

我认为，有些人会开始相信自己的谎言。

And some people start to believe their own lies, I think.

有些人会开始相信自己的理论。

Some people start to believe their own theories.

人类心理学是广阔、抽象且极其复杂的。

Human psychology is like it's vast and abstract and so complicated

在某些方面有所不同。

on some varies.

因人而异。

Varies from individual to individual.

他们能合理化、能在心里为自己辩解的东西。

What they can justify, what they can sort of rationalize in their head.

看。

Look.

我一开始就跟你说过，只有寥寥几起案件让我觉得，不对，这不可能。

I told you at the beginning that there's only been, like, a handful of cases where I was like, yeah, that can't be.

那个故事里肯定有什么你没告诉我的缺失环节。

There's some there's gotta be something missing from that story that you're not telling me.

但你看着。

But what watch this.

1998年，两名警官在纽约市布鲁克林的皮特金大道巡逻。

Two officers in 1998 were on patrol in New York City in Brooklyn on Pitkin Avenue.

突然响起枪声。

Gunfire breaks out.

就在他们开车经过时，枪声突然响起。

And, literally, as they're rolling down the street, the gunfire breaks out.

其中一名警官向左看，看到了用来杀害这名年轻男子特雷弗·维拉的枪的枪口火光。

One of the officers looks to his left and sees the muzzle flash of the gun that was used to kill this young man, Trevor Vieira.

他跳出巡逻车，用枪指着那个人，说：放下枪。

He exits the patrol car, draws on the man, and says, drop the gun.

那人仍然拿着用来杀害特雷弗·维拉的枪，现场气氛紧张。

The guy's pointing the gun still that was used to shoot Trevor Vieira, and there's a tense moment.

这名警官作证说，当时附近有一名14岁的女孩，否则他早就开枪了。

And this officer has testified that there was a 14 year old girl in the area, or he otherwise would have just shot the guy.

所以他 literally 抓住了手里还冒着烟的凶手。

So he literally catches the murderer with the gun smoking in his hand.

为什么你过去二十年一直用这个表达？

Why you've used that expression over the past two decades?

哦，这就是铁证。

Oh, it's a smoking gun.

这他妈的就是铁证。

This is the fucking smoking gun.

他终于放下了枪。

He finally drops the gun.

他的名字是爱德华多·罗德里格斯。

His name is Eduardo Eduardo Rodriguez.

他被戴上手铐，你知道，在定罪后的发现过程中，你会收到各种文件。

He's put in handcuffs, and, you know, you get documents as you're going through the discovery process during post conviction.

你从检察官和警察那里获得这些材料，其中有一条警长或侦探的无线电通话记录，称‘嫌疑人已被控制’。

You get it from the prosecutor, from the police, and there's a radio call by a sergeant a detective that says, perps in custody.

这与逮捕是同时发生的。

Contemporaneous with the arrest.

他们逮捕了两名男子。

They arrest two men.

一个是站在他旁边的人，另一个是爱德华多·罗德里格斯开枪射击的那个人。

One guy standing next to him and the guy that Eduardo Rodriguez had shot the gun.

他被逮捕了。

He's placed under arrest.

他被带到警局，交到了一位我心目中布鲁克林重案组最腐败、最残忍的侦探手中——刘易斯·斯卡雷拉。

He's brought to the precinct, and he is delivered into the arms of no other than one of the most corrupt, sadistic detectives to ever work homicide in Brooklyn, in my opinion, Lewis Scarcella.

不。

No.

为什么这个名字对你或其他人来说会感到熟悉？

Why should that name sound familiar to you or to others?

因为刘易斯·斯卡雷拉就是那个陷害德里克·哈密尔顿的人，而哈密尔顿现在是卡多佐法学院珀尔穆特法律正义中心的副主任。

Because Lewis Scarcella is the guy that framed Derrick Hamilton, who's the deputy director of the Perlmutter Center for legal justice at Cardozo.

刘易斯·斯卡雷拉和他的搭档，我想他叫基梅尔或奇梅尔。

Lewis Scarcella and his partner I think his his name is Schimmel or Chimmel.

基梅尔。

Kimmel.

拼写是 c-h-m-i-l。

It's c h m I l.

这些家伙因诬陷无辜者犯下他们并未实施的谋杀案而臭名昭著，已有21起案件因他们担任主侦办人而被撤销定罪。

These guys were so notorious for framing people for murders they didn't commit that there have been 21 cases where people's convictions were vacated, where they were the lead detectives.

21起。

21.

德里克的案件就是其中之一。

Derrick's is one of them.

所以爱德华多·罗德里格斯被带到警局时，手里还拿着那把沾血的枪。几个小时后，他被带到内尔森·克鲁兹的家中，当时内尔森年仅17岁，刚满16岁。

So Ed Eduardo Rodriguez is delivered to the precinct, smoking gun in his hand, And a couple of hours later, he's brought to the home of Nelson Cruz, who was 17 years old at the time, 16 turning 17.

这些警察的说法是，他在警局里大喊大叫，把现场搅得天翻地覆。

And it's the story of these cops that while he was in the precinct, that he was yelling and screaming and tearing the place up.

我没干这事。

I didn't do it.

是内尔森·克鲁兹干的。

Nelson Cruz did it.

他开枪杀了人，然后逃跑，把枪扔在地上，我只是捡了起来。

He shot him and ran and dropped the gun, and I just picked it up.

逮捕他的警官从未见过内尔森·克鲁兹。

The officer that arrested him never saw Nelson Cruz.

他没有看到有人开枪并丢下枪。

He didn't see someone shoot and drop a gun.

这个说法简直荒谬至极。

The story is literally ludicrous.

内尔森·克鲁兹被逮捕并被控谋杀。

Nelson Cruz is arrested and charged with murder.

所以当我听到这个故事时，我想，这绝对不可能是事实。

So when I heard the story, I was like, there's no fucking way that this is what happened.

你隐瞒了什么。

You're leaving something out.

然后我阅读了庭审笔录。

And I then read the trial transcript.

有另一个叫安德烈·贝林格的人出现在警局。

There's another guy that shows up at the precinct named Andre Bellinger.

安德烈·贝林格说，是的。

And Andre Bellinger says, yeah.

我也看到纳尔逊·克鲁兹干的。

I saw Nelson Cruz do it too.

他来到警局，被告知了使用的枪支类型。

And he shows up at the precinct, and he's told what kind of gun was used.

他被告知纳尔逊·克鲁兹是嫌疑人，然后在被告知我们会把纳尔逊·克鲁兹放进辨认队列后，他从人群中指认了他。

He's told that Nelson Cruz is the suspect, and then he picks him out of a lineup after being told we're gonna put Nelson Cruz in a lineup.

这三件事都严重违反了调查规范，这一点早已被确立了数十年。

All three of those things are gross violations of investigatory practices, and this has been established for decades.

所以这个人最终受审，但他们却声称找不到那个声称目击了犯罪的人。

So this guy ends up put on trial, and they somehow claim that they don't have they can't locate this guy that is saying that he witnessed the crime.

他们找不到他。

They can't locate him.

他根本不在那里，无法被找到。

He's not around to be located.

所以那个手里拿着枪、开枪的人，那个声称纳尔逊·克鲁兹行凶的人，在纳尔逊·克鲁兹的审判中却失踪了。

So this the the person who had the gun in his hand that is shooting the gun who they believe who who says Nelson Cruz did it, and Nelson Cruz's trial, he's nowhere to be found.

你不觉得检察官应该让这个男人，爱德华多·罗德里格斯，出庭作证，解释他是怎么捡到那把枪的吗？

Wouldn't you think that the prosecutors would put that man, Eduardo Rodriguez, on the stand so he could explain how he picked up a gun?

他可以说明你看到了什么？

He could explain what did you see?

你看到纳尔逊·克鲁兹干了这件事，他跑掉了并丢下了枪，但他从未被传上法庭作证。

You saw Nelson Cruz do this, and he ran and dropped the gun, and he's never put on the stand.

这简直就像一场三天的审判。

It's like a three day trial.

唯一被传上法庭声称目击了事件的人，就是这个叫安德烈·贝林格的人。

The only person put on the stand that claimed to have been a witness is this guy, Andre Bellinger.

所以，我的意思是，有些人运气差，霉运连连，或者遭遇了灾难性的、末日般的倒霉事，而纳尔逊·克鲁兹恰好就中了这种该死的彩票。

So, I mean, some people have, like, bad luck, shitty luck, or cataclysmic fucking, apocalyptically bad luck, and Nelson Cruz just happens to have, you know, won that shit lottery.

大约八年前和六年前，纳尔逊·克鲁兹曾两次出现在法官面前。

Nelson Cruz ends up before a judge about eight years ago and about six years ago.

这是一次定罪后听证会，而声称亲眼目睹纳尔逊·克鲁兹作案的安德烈·贝林格，被揭穿是个骗子。

And it's a post conviction hearing, and this guy, Andre Bellinger, who claims that he watched Nelson Cruz do it, is outed as a liar.

当晚与他在一起的目击者表示，他当时并不在谋杀现场。

There are eyewitnesses that were with him that night who said he wasn't at that murder scene.

他当时和我在一起，离那里好几条街远。

He was, like, blocks away with me.

他在许多不同场合都被揭穿是骗子。

He was outed as a liar on so many different occasions.

如果这不是如此严重的事情，这简直会变得可笑。

It becomes like it would become laughable if it wasn't so serious.

在这些后续审判程序中，有二十多位证人出庭作证，判决日当天法庭座无虚席，因为媒体和法律界普遍预期纳尔逊·克鲁兹即将被无罪释放。

After these post conviction proceedings during which 20 some odd witnesses were called, The courtroom is packed on the day of the decision because the expectation amongst the press and in the legal community is Nelson Cruz is about to get exonerated.

这位法官曾为刘易斯·斯卡塞拉调查过的人员平反，但这次她表现得异常古怪和不稳定。

This judge had exonerated people that had been investigated by Lewis Scarcella, and she's acting kinda weird and erratic.

她裁定纳尔逊·克鲁兹败诉，并在多个场合自相矛盾。

And she rules against Nelson Cruz and contradicts herself on multiple occasions.

这是在2019年，而到了2020年，我们后来得知她再也没有出庭，而是因患有晚期阿尔茨海默病而辞职。

And this is in 2019, and we lay or 2020, and we later learn she never takes the bench again, and she resigns because she has advanced stage Alzheimer's disease.

哦，天哪。

Oh, Jesus.

我有一份调查员的宣誓书，其中提到她的丈夫说，她早在多年前就开始出现这些症状。

I have an affidavit that from an investigator that says her husband said that she had been suffering from these symptoms for years before.

曾有人就她多次不出庭的问题提交了司法投诉。

There was a judicial complaint filed because she wasn't showing up to court.

ProPublica 上有一篇关于这场丑闻的文章。

There's a ProPublica article about it, about this whole debacle.

你知道，就是这类故事。

And, you know, it's stories like this.

因此，佩尔穆特法律正义中心正在处理这个案件。

And so the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, is working on the case.

而且，幸运的是，我们是在布鲁克林的定罪完整性部门处理此事，由一位非常特别的人领导。

And, you know, thankfully, we're before the conviction integrity unit in Brooklyn, and it's led by a really special guy.

埃里克·冈萨雷斯是布鲁克林的地区检察官，他会听取这些案件。

Eric Gonzalez is the district attorney in Brooklyn, and he listens to these cases.

他有一个真正的定罪完整性部门。

He has a real conviction integrity unit.

因此，我希望能向他们提交这个案件后，能为他争取到一些宽恕。

So I'm hopeful that once we present the case to them, that we'll get him some relief.

但想想看，他早在2023年就获释了。

But to think about he was paroled in 2023.

他现在一团糟。

He's a mess.

他走路时总是紧张不安。

He walks around nervous.

他有严重的焦虑和偏执。

He's got terrible anxiety and paranoia.

他是个很棒的人，而且他绝对清白无辜。

He's a wonderful guy, and he's he's so stone cold innocent.

你不禁会想，这种事怎么会发生在一个人身上。

And you just wonder how and why this shit can happen to someone.

而且你知道，这简直就是一系列完美的巧合：你有这些已经被证实毁掉过很多人生活的腐败侦探。

And, you know, it's like the the perfect constellation of, like, you got this these crooked detectives who have already been found to have ruined a bunch of people's lives.

你有凶器被发现握在凶手手中，但凶手却神秘消失了。

You have the smoking gun found in the hand of the murderer who mysteriously disappears.

如果你在想，为什么他们会相信这个家伙呢？

And if you're wondering, so why why do they believe this guy?

他是怎么去警局大闹一场，声称纳尔逊·克鲁兹干的，还说自己捡起了枪，尽管根本没有证据，你觉得会是什么原因？

How does he go to the precinct and he raises hell and says, Nelson Cruz did, and I picked up the gun even though there's no evidence of that, what would be your guess?

嗯，他可能在别的事情上是个证人。

Well, he's probably some sort of a witness in something else.

当时大家都知道，刘易斯、加塞尔以及其他布鲁克林重案组的侦探，还有各个区的警探，都有线人。

It was pretty well known back at the time that Lewis, Garcella, other detectives in Brooklyn homicide, and and all the boroughs had informants.

我的最佳猜测就是这个。

I mean, that's my best guess.

否则，你为什么要直接删除？他们甚至已经走到了试图诋毁自己人的地步，说：‘皮亚蒂肯定没看到他扔下枪逃跑。’

Why else would you just delete and they they've gone as far as to try to discredit their own and say, well, Piatti must not have seen him drop the gun and run.

这个人一直都很一致。

This guy has been consistent throughout.

他听到枪声，抬头一看，看到了枪口的火光。

He hears the gunfire, looks, sees the muzzle flash.

他亲眼目睹了这起谋杀。

He literally witnesses the murder.

所以，你知道，当时有一个联邦调查局和纽约市警察局联合成立的任务小组。

So, you know, there was an f there was a joint FBI task force with the NYPD going at the time.

所以，是的，他们依赖线人。

So, yeah, they relied on informants.

那个真正实施谋杀的人现在怎么样？

Where what's the state of the guy who actually committed the murder currently?

他被释放了。

He's out.

天啊。

Jesus.

他在街上到处乱跑。

He's running around the streets.

谁知道他在哪儿？

Who knows where he is?

所以如果你们的人被无罪释放，这个人会被审判吗？

So if your guy gets exonerated, does this guy get tried?

不会。

No.

这种情况非常罕见。

That very rarely happens.

我的意思是，这种情况几乎从不发生。

That very I mean

所以那个人刚犯了谋杀，却自由自在。

So that guy just committed murder, and he's free.

哦，这种事确实发生过。

Oh, that's happened.

你知道有多少次这种事发生在做过定罪后工作的任何人身上吗？

You know how many times that's happened to anyone that's done post conviction work?

所以你甚至不认为这是可能的。

So you but you don't even think that's a possibility.

你只是在无视它。

You're you're just dismissing it.

不，根本不可能。

Like, no.

凶手将会被释放。

The the murderer is gonna go free.

是的。

Yeah.

因为如果我要指望这种情况发生，那就违背了我在这个世界上所认知的逻辑。

Because in order for me to expect that that would happen will be to defy logic as I know it in this world.

因为想想会发生什么。

Because think about what happens.

如果你的市政当局承认我们做了一件可怕的事，这是个错误，我们做错了。

If your municipality, admits we did something horrible, and it was a mistake, and we did the wrong thing.

将会有一场民权诉讼。

There's gonna be a civil rights lawsuit.

我的意思是，你看。

I mean, look.

值得赞扬的是，布鲁克林的这位地方检察官已经这样做了，并且做了正确的事。

To Brooklyn's credit with this DA, they have done that and done the right thing.

但就随后去追查他们认为是真凶的人而言，现在是1926年2月，而这起犯罪发生在1998年。

But in terms of then going after the person that they think did it, you know, it's 02/1926, and this crime happened in 1998.

三十年后，要重新召集证人，其中一些人可能已经去世或难以找到。

It's thirty years later to be able to reassemble the witnesses and some of whom are probably dead or hard to find.

但一旦出现无罪释放，并且能够指认出真正的凶手，执法部门去追查辩护律师已证实的真凶，这种情况极为罕见。

But it's very rare that once there's an exoneration and you're able to point to who the true killer is, very rare that law enforcement will go after the person that defense counsel has established actually did it.

这太疯狂了。

That's insane.

是吗？

Is it?

是的。

Yeah.

因为如果辩护律师已经认定另一个人无罪，并且警察确实目睹了那个人实施谋杀，你怎么能不以谋杀罪起诉他呢？

Because if the defense counsel has ruled that this other guy is innocent and that the police officer did see the guy execute that person, how do you not try that person with murder?

你现在正陷入我们司法体系中‘这怎么可能’的困惑之中。

Now you're you're stumbling into the how could that the the how could that be's of our legal justice system.

这根本就不会发生。

It just it doesn't happen.

我的意思是，克莱门蒂亚·吉里，我之前提到过她，她从死囚牢中获得平反。

I mean, Clement Clementia Geary, who I've talked about before, who was exonerated from death row.

如果你对儿童杀害父母这种现象还有任何疑虑，我想几天前就已经彻底澄清了。

You know, if there's any doubt about this phenomenon of children killing their parents, I think that that was laid to rest a few days ago.

这种事情确实会发生。

It happens.

这种情况比最近报道的要多得多。

Happens a lot more than than was recently publicized.

你知道，真正的凶手是她母亲和祖母的女儿。

You know, the real killer was the daughter of this of her mother and her grandmother.

克莱门特·阿吉雷被指控并送上死囚牢房，而在他的重审过程中，她几乎当着我的面承认了罪行。

Clemente Aguirre gets, you know, charged, put on death row, and in the middle of his retrial, you know, she all but confessed on the stand to me.

他们在犯罪现场发现了她的血与她母亲的血混合在一起。

They have her blood mixed with her mother's blood at the crime scene.

在通往浴室的线索中，凶手在那里清理了现场，她曾六七次向镇上不同的人坦白，不是在胁迫下，也不是对执法人员。

And in a trail leading to the bathroom where the killer cleaned up, she confessed on six or seven different occasions, not under duress, not to law enforcement, to various people around town.

她仍在街头游荡。

She's roaming the streets.

克莱门特被无罪释放的那天，我，你知道，我说，我想我可能引用了吉姆·莫里森的话。

The the day that Clemente got exonerated, I I you know, like, I I said, you know, I think I might have quoted, like, Jim Morrison.

我说过，有个杀手在四处游荡，她人在肯塔基，你们最好去抓她。

Was like, there's a killer on the roam, and she's in Kentucky, and you better go get her.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们就说：‘反对。’

And they were like, oh, objection.

这就是你所知道的？

That's what you know?

但没错，这种事情确实会发生。

But, yeah, it happens.

我的看法是，她完全是罪有应得，但他们却没去追查她。

I mean, it's my belief that she's she's stone cold guilty, and they haven't gone after her.

这种事情经常发生。

And that happens a lot.

我的意思是，你看。

I mean, look.

‘无罪释放’这个词被随意使用，但其实德里克的案子是罕见的。

The word exoneration is thrown around, but it's like, Derek's case is rare.

他被正式宣告无罪。

He was declared actually innocent.

有时定罪会被撤销。

Sometimes the conviction gets vacated.

有时他们会决定不再重审，同意以已服刑期了结，但每次你都在推着一块巨石上陡坡。

Sometimes it, you know, they decide not to retry the person and agree to time served, but you're pushing a massive boulder up a steep hill every time.

像纳尔逊·克鲁兹，再也不该背负这样的重担了。

Like, Nelson Cruz should not have to carry this weight around anymore.

他之前有其他律师为他做了出色的辩护。

He's had other lawyers that had done a great job representing him.

你知道，我们现在介入了。

You know, we've come in now.

他最终服刑了多久？

How much time did he wind up doing?

我觉得是二十六年。

I think twenty six years.

天啊。

Jesus.

嗯。

Yep.

是啊。

Yeah.

这太可怕了。

It's horrifying.

天啊。

Jesus.

我的意思是，当你服刑这么久，即使获释了，还在努力证明自己的清白

I mean, when you've done so much time that you've paroled out and are still trying to prove your innocence

天啊。

Jesus.

我不忍心让你吃不下饭。

I hate to give you indigestion.

我的意思是，到这个地步，我已经哭不出来了。

I mean, but it's this is like I'm past tears at this point.

我现在更觉得，我们只能继续前进，继续抗争。

I'm I'm more like, we just gotta keep going and keep fighting.

当你偶尔取得一些小胜利时，比如最近我们有几起释放案例，非常鼓舞人心——你能让人们获得第二次机会，能让即使他们没做过这件事的人，也最终达成认罪协议。

And when you get these little victories here and there, like, we've had a few releases recently that were super encouraging, where you're able to get people a second chance, where you're able to, you know, get get it to the point where they could, even though they didn't do it, plead guilty.

我们刚刚刚释放了一人。

We just had a a release.

她其实是我在克莱门特·阿吉雷案中的共同辩护律师，玛丽·帕尔默，她的当事人认了罪，但我们相信他是无辜的。

She was actually my co counsel in the Clemente Aguirre case, Mari Palmer, and her client plead guilty, but we believe he's innocent.

他只是为了能出去才这么做的。

He did it to get out.

他已经服刑二十四年了，实在撑不下去了。

He had done twenty four years, and he'd had enough.

但对哈来说，服刑这么久之后，还能走到认罪这一步，你知道吗？无辜的人经常被迫认罪。

But for Har to get it to the place where he could even plead guilty after serving all that time, you know, innocent people plead guilty all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

他们只是为了获得较轻的判决。

They do just to get a lighter sentence.

没错。

Yep.

你干的这行真够肮脏的，伙计。

It's a dirty business you're in, buddy.

肮脏透顶。

Filthy.

这太肮脏了。

It's filthy.

而且它牵涉面极广，因为如果你做定罪后的工作，不仅仅涉及被错误指控和定罪的人。

And it's got all these tentacles because if you're doing post conviction work, it's not just the wrongfully accused and convicted.

还包括，你知道的，我们还处理赦免、减刑和特赦。

It's also, you know, we do clemency work, commutations and pardons.

当我们深入这些人的混乱境遇时，会发现人们确实犯过错误，但他们值得拥有第二次机会。

We you start to wade into the the human mess, and you see that, like, people have made mistakes and are worth a second chance.

他们如何利用这个机会取决于他们自己，但有些事情你根本无法解释。

What they do with it is up to them, but some of the stuff you can't explain.

有些起诉是政治性的。

Some of these prosecutions are political.

你看。

Look.

我目前正在处理一个案件，它正好处于冤假错案与我们国家移民政策究竟在做什么的交界点上。

I'm dealing with a case right now that's, like, at the intersection of wrongful conviction and what the fuck are we doing with our immigration policy in this country.

我甚至不想提他的名字，因为我不想让州政府知道，以免影响我们为他争取公开听证会的进展，但我可以这么说。

And I don't even wanna mention his name because I don't wanna, you know or the state because I don't wanna sacrifice the good work that we're doing to get him a public hearing, but I can say this much.

这个人来自阿尔巴尼亚，上世纪七十年代初来到这个国家，却不得不在意大利的一个难民营里，忍受着恶劣的条件待了将近一个月，只为来到这里谋求生存。

This is a guy from Albania that came to this country in the early seventies and had to sit in a refugee camp in Italy for damn near a month under horrid conditions just to come here to try to live a a life.

他当时才二十出头。

He's in his early twenties.

他在加油站。

He's at a gas station.

他用一张100美元的钞票买5美元的汽油。

He has a $100 bill for $5 of gas.

他走进了加油站。

He goes into the gas station.

那个人收下了那张100美元的钞票。

The guy takes the $100 bill.

他没有零钱。

He doesn't have change.

他说：等你找到5美元时再回来。

He says, when you get $5, come back.

我会先保留这张100美元的钞票。

I'm gonna hold on to this $100 bill.

然后他们发生了争执。

And they get into an argument.

他不肯把那张100美元的钞票还给他。

He won't give him back the $100 bill.

于是他离开去叫他哥哥，并把这件事告诉了哥哥。

So he leaves and goes to get his brother, and he tells his brother about it.

他们回到加油站。

They return to the gas station.

他们车的后座上有一把枪。

They have a gun in the back seat of their car.

他哥哥告诉他：你待在这儿。

His brother tells him, you stay here.

我要进去试着跟这家伙讲道理，把你的钱要回来，再给他5美元。

I'm gonna go in and try to talk some sense into this guy and get your money back and give him $5.

我的当事人坐在车里，突然枪声大作。

My client's sitting in the car, and gunshots erupt.

他回到后座，拿起枪，绕到侧面，走进加油站。

He goes in the back seat, gets the gun, goes around to the side, comes into the gas station.

就是那种八十年代你去付款时的柜台，你还记得吗？

It comes into the, you know, the you remember back in the eighties where the you would go in to pay?

嗯。

Mhmm.

那里会有一个小小的前台区域。

And there would be, like, a little a little front desk area.

嗯。

Mhmm.

加油站员工拿着枪，往左一看，发现他哥哥正在流血致死。

And the gas station attendant is holding the gun, and he looks to his left, and his brother is bleeding out.

加油站员工朝他哥哥的腹部开了一枪。

The gas station attendant had shot his brother in the stomach.

他仍握着枪，浑身发抖，开了一枪，把他打死了。

Still holding the gun shaking, he shoots him one time dead.

然后朝加油站员工开枪，将其击毙。

Shoots the gas station attendant dead.

他的兄弟奇迹般地活了下来，随后他因谋杀罪受审。

His brother miraculously survives, and he's put on trial for murder.

他第一次上了法庭。

And he goes to trial the first time.

记住，那时他刚二十出头，陪审团未能达成一致意见。

Remember, he's in his early twenties, and it's a hung jury.

大多数陪审员倾向于无罪释放。

Most of them are in favor of acquittal.

他第二次受审后被定罪。

Goes to trial a second time and gets convicted.

法官一定认为这几乎就是最接近正当防卫的案例了。

The judge must have seen that this was damn near as close to self defense as it gets.

他被判了四到七年监禁。

He got sentenced to, like, four to seven years.

他实际只服刑了不到四年。

He was out in just under four years.

他在监狱里成为了一名出色的拳击手。

He had become an accomplished boxer in prison.

在过去五十一年里，他连一张交通罚单都没收到过。

He's lived the last fifty one years of his life without so much as a traffic ticket.

他去了纽约，作为建筑主管加入了工会。

He goes to New York, joins the union as a super for buildings.

他缴税，缴纳社会保障金，为养老金做贡献，为自己建立了生活，育有五个孩子、八个孙子孙女，现在住在纽约州北部。

He pays taxes, Social Security, pays into his pension, builds a life for himself, has five kids, eight grandchildren, and he's living in Upstate New York.

几年前他离开美国去阿尔巴尼亚探亲，回来时在边境被拦下。

Leaves the country a couple of years ago to go to Albania to see family, comes back and gets stopped at the border.

不知为何，他在边境没有被拘留，但当局对他启动了驱逐程序。

Somehow is not detained at the border, but they start removal proceedings on him.

为什么？

Why?

因为那里有Is

Because there is Is

他现在是公民吗？

he a citizen at this point?

不是。

No.

他不是，但他有

He's not, but he's Is

他是绿卡持有者吗？

he a green card?

是的。

Yeah.

他是绿卡持有者。

He's a green card holder.

本集由The Farmer's Dog赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog.

食谱、烹饪方法，甚至份量控制，都会影响狗狗的健康。

Recipes, cooking methods, even portioning, it all makes a difference for your dog's health.

而且，The Farmer's Dog 正在为新的研究项目投入大量资源。

And the Farmer's Dog is pouring a ton of resources into new research studies.

他们还刚刚启动了田纳西大学兽医学院的住院医师项目，旨在推动新研究并塑造宠物健康的未来。

They've also just started sponsoring a residency program at the University of Tennessee's College of Veterinary Medicine, which aims to contribute new research and help shape the future of pet health.

你可以在他们的狗粮中看到他们对科学支持的犬类营养的承诺。

You can see their dedication to science backed dog nutrition in their food.

每一种配方都由一群具有认证资格的兽医营养师团队开发，并为不同年龄、体型和品种的狗狗提供定制化方案。

Every recipe is developed by a team of board certified veterinary nutritionists, and they offer tailored plans for dogs of all ages, sizes, and breeds.

除了提供高品质的真肉、新鲜蔬菜和必需营养素产品外，他们还做了以上所有工作。

They do all this on top of offering a high quality product of real meat, fresh vegetables, and essential nutrients.

他们甚至根据狗狗的具体热量需求进行分量控制，因为保持狗狗健康体重可以帮助它们多活两年半。

They even portion the food to your dog's specific caloric needs because keeping dogs at a healthy weight can help them live up to two and a half years longer.

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Plus, get free shipping.

直接访问 thefarmersdog.com/rogan。

Just go to the farmersdog.com/rogan.

此优惠仅限新客户。

This offer is for new customers only.

他正是我们希望这个国家拥有的那种人。

He's exactly who we would want in this country.

一个来到这里的人，顺便提一下，我想谈谈这个州。

A guy that comes here and mid and by the way, I wanna mention the state.

当时并不存在自卫法。

There are self defense laws that did not exist then.

许多州都有‘就地抵抗’法律。

Many states have stand your ground laws.

我认为在不同情况下，他甚至不会被起诉，如果法律已经演进的话。

I think under different circumstances, he doesn't even and if the laws had evolved, he doesn't even get charged.

我的意思是，你看到你兄弟被枪击，而关于这件事的事实并无争议。

I mean, you see your brother shot, and the facts are not in dispute about this.

我对此进行了彻底的研究。

I've researched it exhaustively.

你知道吗，难道我们不希望这样的人吗？他为这个社会贡献了五十一年，还建立了一个家庭？

You know, isn't that the type of person we want who has contributed to this society for fifty one years and built a family?

那兄弟和店员之间发生了什么？

What what happened with the brother and the attendant?

他们发生了争执，他称店员为针对阿尔巴尼亚人的侮辱性词汇，于是他们开始争吵，他直接朝他肚子开了一枪。

They got into an argument, and he called the attendant called him some some slur against Albanians, and they started to argue, and he just shot him in the stomach.

发生的事情根本没有任何争议。

There's this isn't even it's not in dispute at all what happened.

而且有一项法律规定，如果你犯了暴力罪，就会被驱逐。

And there's a law that if you committed a violent crime, you're removable.

但五十年来，他从未被这个国家驱逐。

But for fifty one years, he was not removed from this country.

他作为绿卡持有人生活在这里，缴纳税款，建立了家庭和生活。

And he lived here as a green card holder, and he paid taxes, and he built a family and a life.

那这次驱逐是在拜登政府期间发生的吗？

And now So this removal was all during the Biden administration?

不是。

No.

不幸的是，这发生在特朗普政府时期。

Unfortunately, it was during the Trump administration.

但你

But you

你说是两年前的事？

said it was two years ago?

他第一次在机场被问到时就被标记了，我认为那是在拜登政府时期，但当时没有采取任何执法行动。

It was when he was first when he was first asked at the airport, and they flagged him, I believe it was during the Biden administration, but no enforcement action was taken.

这是在当前政府期间发生的，这并不是对总统的指控。

It was during the current and this isn't an indictment of the president.

正是在当前政府期间，他们才对他启动了驱逐程序，试图将他驱逐出美国。

This is just during the current administration that they started removal proceedings against him to try to have him removed from the country.

所以，他们只是翻查了所有旧案，找出任何有暴力犯罪记录的人吗？

So did did they just go through all the old cases and find out anybody that had any sort of a violent offense?

我认为，事情就是这样发生的。

I believe I believe that that's what happened.

没人知道确切情况，但我觉得就是这样。

I nobody knows, but that's what I believe happened.

所以，再次说，我犯了个错误——或者说，到目前为止这反而成了一种美德，那就是我了解了这个家庭。

So, again, I made the mistake or maybe it's a virtue at this point of getting to know this family.

我见过每一个兄弟姐妹。

And I I've met every sibling.

有两个男孩和三个女孩，他们真的是我见过的最棒的人之一。

There's two boys and three girls, and they're literally, like, some of the most wonderful people I've ever met.

我真希望我没有那么喜欢他们，但我一直和其中一个保持密切联系——嗯，我想我可以透露其中一个儿子的姓氏，安东尼和他的妹妹乔安娜，看到他们对父亲的爱，以及他们生活在恐惧中，担心父亲会被驱逐到黑山共和国。

I wish I didn't like them as much as I did, and I stay in close contact with one of the I mean, I guess I could give first names with with one of the sons, Anthony and his sister, Joanna, and to see the love that they have for their father and the the fear that they're living under that this man could get deported and sent to Montenegro.

为什么是黑山？

Why Montenegro?

因为如果你是阿尔巴尼亚人，拥有阿尔巴尼亚国籍，你就会被送到那里。

Because that's where you you get sent if you're Albanian, if you have Albanian citizenship.

但为什么是那里呢？

Why why there, though?

我认为现在那里是阿尔巴尼亚的保护国。

I think that that's the protectorate of Albania at this point.

好的。

Okay.

而且，看着他们，他们参加了一次驱逐听证会，我手上有那次听证会的记录，法官对检察官说：

So, and to watch them, they went to one removal proceeding, and the judge I have the transcripts of the proceeding, and the judge is, like, saying to the prosecutors.

有一次，他问：‘你们在这儿干什么？’

At one point, he said, what are you doing here?

他开始用阿尔巴尼亚语跟我当事人说话。

He starts speaking Albanian to my client.

你看。

And look.

我对移民法不太了解。

I don't know immigration law that well.

我不是移民律师，但我跟移民律师谈过，他说你看。

I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I spoke to the immigration lawyer, and he's like, look.

我担心他们会把他带走。

I'm afraid that they're gonna take him.

我的意思是，移民局就在法院外等着，他们会抓走这个人。

I mean, ICE is waiting outside courthouses, and they're gonna take this guy.

他七十多岁了。

He's in his seventies.

把他从家人和孙子孙女身边带走。

Take him away from his family and his grandchildren.

所以，再次强调，你看到的不只是冤案。

So, again, you don't just see these wrongful conviction cases.

你还会看到这种人已经建立起了生活的情况。

You see cases that are like, this man has built a life.

如果你深入表面，看到人们所承受的痛苦、煎熬与恐惧，就会发现他们日复一日地活在这样的状态中。

And if you start to get beneath the surface and you see the pain and agony and fear that people are living, it's it's they're living it day to day.

我们成功将他的驱逐听证会推迟到了二月，所以我现在正努力为他争取赦免。

We were able to get a delay into February for his removal proceedings, so I'm now trying to get him pardoned.

因为如果他获得赦免，就没有理由将他驱逐了。

Because if he gets pardoned, there's no basis upon which to remove him.

而且，你知道，我们中心有一支团队正在处理这件事，一旦你真正了解了这些人，你就会想要为他们而战。

And, you know, we have a team in my center that's working on it, and you want these are the kind of people you wanna fight for once you get to know them.

所以，我不想一个接一个地讲述噩梦，但我觉得让人们听到这些很重要，因为这不仅仅是你在电视上看到或听到的那些内容。

So I, there's like I don't wanna just tell nightmare after nightmare, but the reason why it's important, I think, for people to hear this is it's not just what you're seeing on TV or what you're hearing about.

我的意思是，我们有什么理由驱逐一位在这里生活了五十年、为社会做出贡献、缴纳税款、缴纳社会保障金、并加入工会的祖父呢？

I mean, what basis do we have to remove a grandfather who's lived here for fifty years and contributed to this society and paid his taxes and paid into Social Security and was part of a union?

我只是在寻找一个瑕疵。

And just like, I'm looking for a flaw.

我真的在找。

I really am.

我在找一个不喜欢他们的理由，但我却越来越被他们吸引。

I'm looking for, like, a reason for me not to like them, and I just get drawn in more and more.

他们真的是很棒的人，

They're just wonderful people,

这些正是那种

and the these are the kinds of things that

值得为之奋斗的人。

are, like, worth fighting for.

我认为ICE正在发生的事情，就像开罚单和类似事情的配额一样，他们有想要达成的数字，而且他们公开谈论过，希望每周驱逐一定数量的人。

I think what's going on with ICE is one of the things that's going on with quotas for speeding tickets and things along those lines is that they have numbers that they wanna achieve, and they've openly talked about this, that they wanna remove a certain amount of people per week.

当他们这样做时，我认为一切都成了可能的目标。

And when they do that, I think everything's on the table.

然后他们就开始出现在家得宝（Home Depot）。

Then they start showing up at Home Depot.

他们不是去寻找帮派分子、罪犯和贩毒集团成员，而是去抓最容易下手的人，以便完成指标。

Instead of, like, looking for gangbangers, looking for criminals and cartel members, they're they go to whatever's easiest pickings so they can get numbers up.

你知道埃德·卡德隆吗？

There's do you know Ed Calderon?

你知道他是谁吗？

Do know who he is?

他曾经是墨西哥军人，现在是美国公民，但长期深入报道贩毒集团，刚给我讲了一些关于移民局突袭的恐怖故事。

He's he worked he was a Mexican military guy who now is an American citizen, but he reports extensively on the cartels and just was telling me some horror stories about ICE raids.

其中一个故事是，他们抓走了一个婴儿时期就被带到这里、却从未获得美国公民身份的人。

And one of them was they took this guy who had been brought over here when he was a baby but didn't have American citizenship.

船。

Ship.

他的家人非法来到这里，在这里生活了二十年。

His family, you know, came over here illegally, lived here for twenty years.

他不会说西班牙语。

Can't speak Spanish.

他们把他驱逐了。

They deport him.

把他送到蒂华纳。

Send him to Tijuana.

不会说西班牙语。

Can't speak Spanish.

不会说西班牙语。

Can't speak Spanish.

不会说西班牙语。

Does not speak Spanish.

他本质上是个美国公民。

He is essentially an American citizen.

他从未在其他地方生活过。

He just never lived anywhere else.

他只是没有文件。

He just doesn't have the paperwork.

他不是罪犯。

He's not a criminal.

他们把他送到了蒂华纳，现在他不得不住在墨西哥。

They sent him over to Tijuana, and now he has to live in Mexico.

他根本不知道该做什么。

He he doesn't know what the fuck to do.

他流落街头。

He's on the streets.

他完全不知道怎么办。

He has no idea.

他身无分文。

He doesn't have any money.

是的。

Yeah.

我不明白。

I don't understand.

我希望移民政策能像一个黑箱一样，明确到底是什么政策，以及为什么你们要继续这种说法——这看起来更像是一个人权问题，而不是政治问题。

I wish that there was it's it's sort of a black box immigration in terms of what is what the policy exactly is, and why do you want to continue this narrative that seems to be, again, more of a human rights issue than a political issue?

我的意思是，这里的最终目标是什么？

Like, what is the endgame here?

最终目标是尽可能多地驱逐非法移民，因为过去四年里涌入了太多人。

The endgame is to get as many illegals out as they can because so many were brought in over the last four years.

嗯，这个说法挺有道理的。

Well, that's that's a fair argument.

我理解这一点。

I understand that.

但我们真要驱逐那些七岁的孩子吗？不。

But do we wanna be getting rid of seven year old men that No.

真的，我得跟你说。

Really, I mean, I gotta tell you.

我有个哥哥，如果有人对他做了这种事，我真不敢说我会不会做出同样的事。

I have an older brother, and if someone had did something like that to him, I can't tell you I wouldn't have done the same fucking thing.

当然。

Of course.

几乎任何有家人的人都会这么说。

Almost anybody who has family would say that.

去看看你的兄弟被枪杀，你知道围绕这件事的全部情况。

Go and you see your brother shot and you know the whole circumstances surrounding it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我不只是觉得，而且我了解到，这些移民法官并没有多少灵活性。

So I don't I just don't and and it's not these immigration judges I've come to learn don't have much flexibility.

他们有关于某人是否被视为可驱逐的严格而明确的法规。

You know, they're hard and fast statutes about whether or not someone is considered removable.

我的诉求其实是对检察官说：你们为什么要做这种事？

And, you know, my appeal is really to the prosecutor is like, why are you doing this?

但他们只是在执行上级的命令，上级告诉他们：这是你的案子。

But then they're following orders from someone above them that's telling them, this is your case.

你被指派负责这个案子。

You're assigned to it.

尽力做好你的工作。

Do the best job you can.

这种破事不幸地总是往下传。

So that kind of shit just rolls downhill, unfortunately.

是的。

Yeah.

我尽量不让自己被这些事影响到心理健康。

And and, you know, I try not to I try not to wear this from my own mental health.

我正努力稍微克制一下自己的同情心，但有时候这很难，比如内尔森的案子，我正在说的这个案子。

I'm trying to keep the empath in me in check a little bit more because but sometimes it's difficult, like Nelson's case, this case that I'm talking about.

我之所以不在这起案件中使用名字，是因为我不想得罪人。

And the only reason I'm not using names in that case is I don't wanna alienate.

在这个事件发生的地方（不是纽约），有很多了不起的人，他们真的关心此事，并且已经表现出：这看起来不对劲，我们希望确保你能获得一次公开听证。

There's great people in the state that this happened in, which wasn't New York, that I think actually care and have shown that, yeah, this is doesn't seem right, and we wanna make sure that you get a public hearing.

我相信在二月之前我们一定会做到，如果真能这样，我对我们的胜算很有信心，因为我认为他的故事值得获得赦免。

I'm confident that we will before February, and I like my chances if we do because I think that the story he's worth pardoning.

他值得被拯救。

He's worth saving.

但你知道，我不明白，我的意思就是我之前说的这种人性的混乱。

But, you know, I don't I don't understand I mean, that's what I what I meant by this human mess.

我真希望有一个更透明的流程，能说明人们是如何以及为何获得赦免的，无论是在州一级还是联邦一级。

It's like, I wish there was a more transparent process of how and why people get pardons certainly on the state and on the federal level.

我不懂。

I don't get it.

嗯，最荒谬的是，总统可以赦免任何人。

Well, I mean, the the nuttiest thing is that the president can pardon people.

只要你当了总统或州长，就可以随意决定。

That you could just decide because you're the president or the governor.

你可以 simply 决定：我喜欢这个人。

You could just decide this person, I like him.

这是一种了不起的责任，也是一种令人敬畏的权力。

It's an it's an amazing responsibility, and it's kind of an awesome power to have.

而如何行使这一权力就变得颇具挑战性。

And how you go about exercising it becomes challenging.

对吧？

Right?

因为，嗯，

Because Well,

这变得真的很奇怪。

it gets real weird.

比如，在拜登政府时期，有些赦免根本不是拜登亲自签署的？

Like, how about during the Biden administration when some of them, Biden clearly didn't even sign the pardons?

全是自动签署，而他拥有的赦免数量比任何总统都多。

It was all auto pen, and he had the most pardons of any president ever.

所以你有政治影响力。

So you have political influence.

你有想让某人获得赦免的人，而且他们认识内部人士。

You have people that would like to get someone pardoned and you know someone inside.

你觉得你能办到吗？

You think you can make this happen?

他赦免了9000个人。

Well, he's pardoning 9,000 people.

去他的。

Fuck it.

咱们就顺便把这一个也加上吧。

Let's just throw that one in there.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不太了解自动签署赦免令这件事。

I mean, I don't think he's I don't really know the auto pen issue that well.

我不知道他有没有看到那些文件，还是没看到。

I don't know if he saw those, didn't see them.

我不知道每届总统的运作是不是都像这种有组织的混乱。

I don't know what it's like organized chaos for for every presidency.

你知道吗，比尔·克林顿在任期结束时赦免了一些人，看看那些人，简直疯了。

You know, Bill Clinton pardoned people at the end of his terms that fucking bananas when you look at them.

拜登为他儿子这么做了。

Biden did it with his son.

你知道吗？

You know?

拜登为他的家人——那些根本没被指控的人——也这么做了。

Biden did it with his with family members that weren't even accused

提前赦免。

of Preemptive pardon.

是啊。

Yeah.

我都不知道以前还有这种事。

I don't even know that that was a thing before.

以前从来没有过。

It never was.

他为福奇做了这件事。

He did it with Fauci.

提前赦免到2014年。

Preemptive back to 2014.

是的。

Yeah.

听我说。

Listen.

我不觉得现任政府发出的一些赦免对他有利。

I don't some of the pardons that the current administration issues are, like, good for him.

是的。

Yeah.

其他的则让人费解，你会想：这到底是什么鬼？

Others are, like, head scratchers, and you're like, what the fuck?

对。

Right.

但你知道，一个人为什么值得赦免而另一个人不值得，这很难理解。

But, like, I you know, what makes one person deserving and another not is a difficult thing to understand.

我曾经去过白宫。

I like, I have I've been to the White House.

我曾经为赦免奔走过。

I've I've advocated for pardons.

这是一段令人沮丧的经历，因为你知道有成千上万的人在做同样的事，而你竭尽全力说明这个案子为什么特别。

It's a frustrating experience because you know that there are thousands of people doing the same thing, and you try your best to say this is why this case means something.

但事情之后会如何发展，就很难理解了。

But where it goes from there is hard to understand.

我对现任赦免事务主管爱丽丝·约翰逊怀有极大的尊重和钦佩，因为她曾经亲身经历过。

I think I have tremendous respect for an admiration of the current pardon czar, Alice Johnson, because she's been there before.

她曾经被监禁，后来被总统赦免，现在却担任了赦免事务主管的角色。

You know, she was actually incarcerated and pardoned by the president, and she's now in that role as the pardon czar.

她是由谁赦免的？

Who is she pardoned by?

特朗普总统。

President Trump.

哇。

Wow.

在他第一个任期内。

During his first prem.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

而且她现在

And she's

她当初被错误指控了什么？

What was she wrongfully accused of?

她因某种毒品犯罪被判了很长的刑期。

Some drug offense, and she did a ton of time.

她后来成为了一位了不起的人，不仅是普通人，更是为他人争取改过自新机会的倡导者，而总统也任命她负责赦免事务。

And she's gone on to become this amazing, not just human being, but advocate for people to get second chances, and he designated her the pardons are.

现在我认为，她要想见到总统并为赦免案件奔走是困难的，因为中间有层层影响。

Now I think between her and getting to the president and making her case for pardons is difficult because there's layers of influence in between.

但你知道，我目前手上就有几个案子，背后有非常有名的人物支持，你自然希望这些案子最终能送到他桌上，获得一些宽恕。

But, you know, I have I have cases before them right now that, have very prominent people backing them, and, you know, you would hope that they end up, you know, on his desk and seeing getting some relief.

我有一个客户，我知道迈克·泰森公开且私下都支持他。

I have one client that I know Mike Tyson has backs him publicly, privately.

他是他儿时的朋友。

He was a childhood friend of his.

他的名字叫斯宾塞·鲍恩斯。

His name is Spencer Bowens.

他是众多在这些荒谬的毒品量刑制度下被判刑的人之一，比如，让我们来称量毒品。

And, you know, he's one of many people that were sentenced under these crazy regimes of, like, let's weigh let's weigh the drugs.

那么什么更重？

So what's heavier?

快克可卡因还是可卡因？

Crack or cocaine?

可卡因。

Cocaine.

好的。

Alright.

什么更重？

What's heavier?

海洛因还是快克？

Heroin or crack?

海洛因。

Heroin.

好的。

Alright.

所以他们开始衡量，什么更具破坏性？

So they start to weigh, and what's more destructive?

他妈的谁知道呢？

Who fucking knows?

可卡因确实非常具有破坏性。

Crack was pretty damn destructive.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，斯宾塞已经在监狱里待了三十多年，如果这些荒谬的毒品法律不存在，如果它们能追溯适用——毕竟它们已经被废除了——他早就该出狱了。

And, you know, they Spencer's been in prison for more than three decades on and he would have been out if these nutty drug laws didn't exist and if they applied retroactively since they have been abolished.

他现在被困在里面，我和他交谈时，开始感到绝望。

And he's a guy that's sitting in there, and I speak to, and I start to lose hope.

我没有失去希望。

I don't lose hope.

我通过电话感受到他的绝望，因为他本应在法庭上获得宽恕，他真的非常、非常值得被释放。

I start to feel his hopelessness over the phone because he should have been granted relief in the courts, and he's someone that just really, really deserves to be out.

你知道的。

You know?

而且我这里有好多类似的情况，我们一直在努力，但与此同时，你又得表达出对负责这些事情的人的信心，但又不能让他们觉得你在指责他们。

And I I have there's a bunch of cases like that where we're trying so hard, and you have to, at the same time at the same time you express, you know, confidence in the people that are responsible for this stuff, but you also wanna make sure that you're not offending them by saying, look.

我知道你手头也有很多这样的案子。

I know you have a bunch of cases.

埃莫里·琼斯是另一个例子。

Emory Emory Jones is another one.

我知道，我经常和Jay Z的母亲合作，Jay Z也成立了一个基金会。

I, you know, I do a lot of work with Jay Z's mom, and Jay Z, we have a found he has a foundation.

我也有一个项目，我们夏天一起辅导大学生，资助他们完成大学最后一年的学业。

I have one, and we mentor college students together in the summer, pay for their last year, of college.

埃莫里是Jay Z的童年好友，得到了他的全力支持。

And Emery is a a childhood friend of, of Jay Z's and has his full support.

Rock Nation，你知道的，就是Jay Z的公司，也在支持他。

Rock Nation, you know, Jay Z's company, they're behind him.