#2440 - 马特·达蒙与本·阿弗莱克

因为这部电影让他们感到非常不安。

Because the movie was disturbing them so much.

哇。

Wow.

但这并不是坏事。

But which is not a bad thing.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以，如果这部电影是在Netflix或Amazon上播放，有人觉得不舒服就切换频道，

So had that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody says, oh, I'm disturbed and they turned and they changed the channel

是啊。

Yeah.

但这并不意味着我们就不该拍《出租车司机》。

Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.

对。

Right.

确实如此。

That's true.

比如，去影院观影的投入要大得多。

Like, the investment of going to a place is much greater.

是的。

Yeah.

而这一点的价值在于，你可以观看七十年代的电影。

And one of the values of that is that you could you look at movies from the seventies.

第一部大约有二十五到三十分钟。

The first act was twenty five, thirty minutes.

对。

Right.

你知道，人们对它的评价是一部好电影。

You know, the verdict for it's a great movie.

需要很长时间

Takes a long time

去看看《猎鹿人》。

to get Look at deer hunter.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，

I mean,

那确实是这样，你说得对。

that's And and you're right.

就像你所说的，中途离场的门槛确实很高，比如任何场景，我都想独自看《裸体独行》。

Like, what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real, like, any scene like, I wanna watch naked alone.

比如，你知道的，你得翻来覆去地看，你就在和这种感觉作斗争，而且你知道，它

Like, for the you know, you flip the fucking so you're you are battling that and, you know, it's

我前几天看了《拉蒙斯》，史蒂夫·麦奎因导演的，整整五分钟都没人说话。

I watched Lamons the other night, Steve McQueen, and there's no one talks for, like, five minutes.

完全没人说话。

There's no talking.

就是一堆事情在默默进行。

It's just a bunch of stuff getting done.

对。

Yeah.

就是一群人做着各种事，真让人惊叹。

Just a bunch of people doing things, and it's like, wow.

你那时候可以拍得不一样，可以让画面留白。

You could make it diff you could let it air out back then.

对。

Yeah.

那时候的人对电影本身有不一样的尊重。

It was they had a different respect for what it was.

就像你在讲故事，你会让故事慢慢展开。

Like, you were telling a story, and you're gonna let it air out.

嗯，他们也知道自己的观众在哪里。

Well, they also knew where their audience was.

他们在一家剧院里，

They were in a theater that

其中一部分原因是他们想来这里。

they Part of it was they wanted to come there.

我的意思是，我喜欢的克里斯的故事是他们第一次首映电影，伙计们，哦，是的。

I mean, this Chris story I like is the first time they they debuted a movie, guys Oh, yeah.

在一个满是人的房间里，用投影仪播放。

With a with a projector in a room full of people.

那是一部火车进站的电影。

It was a it was a movie of a train pulling into the station.

于是他们放上了胶片，进行了演示，给观众放映，但所有人都错过了，因为他们转过身盯着投影仪。

So they put the reel up and they did demonstrate, and they showed the people, and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector.

他们从来没看过这种东西。

They never fucking seen anything like that.

你知道，技术在抢风头，但你来是为了参加一个活动，为了某件事，我们都聚在这里，这本身就是一部分。

Know, it's like the technology is upstaging but like you come for an event, come for a thing, we're all gonna be here, that's part of it.

我不知道。

It's I don't know.

存在相互竞争的观点。

There's competing arguments.

你可以想，你能做什么呢？

You can think well, what do you get to do?

有些人就干脆不管了。

And some people just go ahead and fuck it.

就像詹姆斯·卡梅隆的《阿凡达》，我要拍一部三小时的电影，人们会来看的，很棒。

Like Jim Cameron's Avatar, I'm gonna make my three hour movie and people are gonna come and great.

你懂我的意思吗？

Know what I mean?

人们说，哦，你不可能拍一部三小时的电影。

And people say oh well you can't have a three hour movie.

他却说，我是詹姆斯·卡梅隆，我有票房排名第一和第二的电影，你知道的。

And he's like well I'm Jim Cameron and I've actually got the number one and two and you know movies.

我觉得我能做到。

I think I got this.

他还是去做了。

He goes ahead and does it.

你知道，历史上充满了这样的人：他们被灌输了一大堆传统观念，却说，是的，但我们要做点不一样的。

Know, this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're gonna do something different.

结果发现，人们其实也想要这样的东西。

And it as it turns out, like, that's actually what people want too.

你没必要一味重复以前做过、成功过的东西。

It's not for you to just repeat the other shit that's been done before and worked before.

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It's the one line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month.

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Taxes and fees included all on Verizon's five g network.

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Share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet.

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我读到的一件事我觉得特别酷，就是你们设置了一个机制：如果这部电影表现良好，整个剧组都能拿到奖金。

One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses.

嗯。

Yeah.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

嗯。

Yeah.

希望它能成功。

Hopefully, it's successful.

如果失败了，那就完蛋了。

It's gonna be a shit

烂摊子，这他妈是一部

house if it doesn't It's a fucking

很棒的电影，兄弟。

great movie, man.

这是一部很有趣的电影。

It's a fun movie.

但说实话，这很好，但并不是说我们是圣人或慈善家，我认为这完全是出于自私，因为要想把工作做好，每个参与的人都必须真正投入，关心结果。

But it's it's it's good, but it's not like, you know fucking we're saints or philanthropists like it's completely self serving in my opinion because in order to do the job well everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a shit about the result.

而不仅仅是为了薪水。

Not their paycheck only.

有时候你会担心，那些本来就很出色的工作人员，即使他们本不必在意，但他们还是在意了。

Sometimes you worry the crew that just happen to be great anyway even though they don't really have to care about it and they do.

我们看到的这种现象会让你们的电影变得更好。

What we saw was like that makes your movie better.

然后就是这个行业正在发生变化。

And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing.

你看到这些罢工、停工，还有所有这些该死的问题。

You see these strikes and workstoppers and all these fucking questions.

为了能让这份工作——我认为这是一份能维持中产阶级生活的、手工艺般的艺术工作——持续下去，我们需要1200人拥有稳定的工作，而谈判中总是这样：是是是，但最终我们都会被坑。

In order for this, I think, to survive and to be a good middle class fucking artist, artisanal craftsman job, we've got 1,200 people that you know need to have reliable jobs and part of the negotiations is always like yeah yeah yeah but we're all gonna get fucked.

我们根本没有任何参与感。

Like we have no participation.

我们以前拍电影时，演员也常遇到这种情况：你发现，我们都投入了，特别辛苦，还额外付出了很多努力。

We used to work on movies and it happens to actors too where you go oh we all invested it was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort.

结果别人却拿走了所有的成功，我和马特当时就想着：要不我们干脆讲点公平吧？

Somebody else walked away with all the success and you know my theory was with Matt was we were like How about where let's say okay it's just fairness right?

如果这部作品真的大获成功，你们也应该从中受益。

If this thing actually blows up and does really well you should benefit from that.

人们一直被承诺可以参与分成，但这些承诺从未实现。

People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of participation back and haven't come true.

大家都拿到了自己的薪酬，每个人都按小时计酬，没人削减任何东西。

This is like everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything.

这只是一个证明它并非空谈的实践。

This is just an exercise in actually proving that it's not bullshit.

如果取得成功，你们会得到一些额外回报。

That if there's success, you'll get some extra.

一点成功，就有一点额外回报。

A little success, a little extra.

再多一点成功，就再多一点回报。

A little more, a little more.

而且，就像你所说的，因为这是公平的。

Also, like you said, because it's fair.

在成功的情况下，制作电影的人理应参与分享成果。

And in success, the people who made the movie know, should participate in that.

而且关于这一点，对我们来说很重要，他们区分了‘线上’和‘线下’。

And and also with this one, which was important to us, there's a you know, they they delineate above the line and below the line.

对吧？

Right?

比如‘线上’基本上就是我们这些人。

Like above the line being like us Basically, really.

还有演员。

And the cast.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而‘线下’则是我们行业里更偏向蓝领的那一部分，而且这是

And below the line being kind of the more blue collar side of our industry and and It was

比如油漆工、植物布置员、摄影团队，还能让其他人替换成司机。

like painters, greensman, camera, be able to switch everybody else with drivers on.

所以我们只是希望，也相信，当我们创办这家公司时，我们就说：你知道吗，我们知道是谁让我们的电影变得更好。

And so we just wanted we we and believe, like, when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better.

对吧？

Right?

一直以来，这种情况都被定价错误了，经济模型根本不对，每当有大成功时，所有参与其中的人都应该受益。

It's not it's it's it's like they've this has kind of been mispriced the whole time like the economics have been wrong like when there's a when there's a big success everybody who had a hand on it.

因为当你看到一位出色的导演，或者一位被认为有票房保障的演员时，大家都会想：我需要让我的所有团队成员都参与进来。

Because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable, they're all going okay I need all my people with it.

没错，我合作过的每一位优秀导演——我合作过很多——他们都有固定的团队成员，这些人是真正愿意与他们共进退的。

Yeah, every great director I've worked with and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members that they that are ride or die with these people.

对吧？

Right.

因为我在我们刚创办公司时就跟你说过，你知道吗，那些部门主管——比如摄影、摄像部门、道具组、灯光组——这些人最终才是让电影变好的关键。

Because I mean and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling, like, you know, cinematography, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric like, these these those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good.

他们确实能显著提升电影的质量。

Like, they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is.

想象一下，当你和一支优秀的团队建立起良好的默契后

And imagine once you get a good flow with a great crew

没错。

Exactly.

就像你有一支乐队。

Like, you got the band.

对。

Yeah.

根本没必要再招新的乐队成员。

Like, there's no need to bring in new band members.

那我们再来一次吧。

So let's let's do this again.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

因为他们本身也都是电影人。

Because they and then, like, you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too.

每个人都知道我们想做什么。

Everybody knows what we're trying to do.

所以，你想获得一些特别的、有趣的东西，一些他妈的神奇的瞬间，这到底靠什么？

So, like, then what makes it you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment.

你必须意识到，如果人们紧张、状态不好，或者环境出了问题，大家无法放松，演员就无法发挥最佳水平，而这正是好、普通、优秀等不同水准之间的关键区别。我认为，从认知上讲，人们能理解这一点，但你看看周围，比如摄像师科林·安德森。

You have to, like if people are tight or they're been out of shape or, you know, fucks up the environment, people aren't relaxed, actors can't do their best work and that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever and I think that if you say like you know it makes cognitive sense to people but if you look around like Colin Anderson camera operator.

对吧？

Right?

不是摄影指导，但我会告诉你，他是好莱坞最伟大的摄像师。

Not the cinematographer but I would tell you he's the I think he's the greatest camera operator he is in Hollywood.

如果你想证明他的实力，看看他拍的《马蒂·苏普雷姆》就知道了。

If you want evidence that he shot Marty Supreme.

他在一场又一场战斗中担任摄像师。

He was camera operator in one battle after another.

你看看他的履历，就会发现，哇，这些全都是他妈的优秀电影。

Know, he's you look at his resume you're like oh that's interesting these are all fucking great movies.

那么，他个人对这一切都负责吗？

Now is he personally responsible for all of it?

不，因为这是一个协作的媒介。

No, because it's a collaborative medium.

你可以像画家一样独自作画。

There is no like you can be a painter and paint by yourself.

你可以像小说家那样写作，或者唱歌、作曲。

You can be a novelist and do that, sing, write music.

但你无法独自完成这项工作。

You can't do this job alone.

有很多人参与其中，比如当我意识到在上一部我执导的电影中，马特是主角时。

Like there are a lot of people that go into it, you know, even when I realized like Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed.

一个如此出色的人出现在你的电影里，认真完成自己的工作，友善待人，不捣乱、不玩花样、不怪异，这种态度会定下基调。

Somebody so fucking good in your movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird, like that sets this tone.

其他人就会觉得，好吧。

Everybody else kinda goes, okay.

达蒙是个什么样的人？

What's Damon like?

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

我们是认真对待这件事的，但没人会耍脾气。

This is we're taking this seriously, but nobody's gonna be a dick.

我们都会做好自己的本职工作。

We're all gonna do our job.

我们不会太把自己当回事，但会非常认真地对待工作。

We're not gonna take ourselves too seriously but we're gonna take the job really seriously.

于是大家立刻就进入了这种状态。

And immediately everybody kind of snaps into that.

这种潜移默化的影响会贯穿整个团队，我认为作为一名导演，我最擅长的就是营造一种环境，让人觉得他们来了之后，喜欢我，支持我，我可以出丑、表现糟糕，但这些都不会出现在电影里，也不会让我感到尴尬和

That trickle down effect goes across the whole thing and the I think the the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment where people feel like they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me, I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad and it's not gonna be in the movie and it was gonna make me feel self conscious and

我在听我的想法，是的，如果我

I'm listening to my ideas Yeah, if I

他们会有东西贡献，然后会说，‘这主意不错，你懂我的意思吗？’

have something to offer they're gonna go oh that's a good idea, you know what I mean?

在我看来，这就是诀窍。

And that's kind of the trick in my view.

然后你就得依赖这些人的天赋。

And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people.

每一个人，你明白吗？

Every single one of them, you know?

比如，有个女助理或道具师，居然找到了菲尔·奈特当年鞋底的华夫饼纹路，他们是在eBay上找到的，这真是做到了极致。

Guys was you know, some woman's assistant prop masters coming up with like the stuff that Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe, they found it on eBay, like that's an extra mile.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

如果你让人觉得这很重要，你真心在意，他们是在做出贡献，那就会很棒，让我们来个特写吧。

If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and oh cool, let's do a close-up of that.

这真的太酷了。

That's really fucking cool.

他们会为你赴汤蹈火，全力以赴，这会改变整个局面

They'll die for you, they'll go all the way and it changes the whole

如果你给他们额外奖励的话。

And if you bonus them.

这并不会

It doesn't

造成任何伤害。

hurt either.

你知道，这不仅仅是你所知道的那样

You know it's not just all you know

不只是抢匪而已。

not just rob robbers.

实际上有一个明确的奖励机制，比如说

There's an actual like codified bonus structure to say like

这就是认可这种 shit 的方式。

This the is way of recognizing that shit.

对吧？

Right?

这也在你的工资里体现。

That's, in your paycheck too.

这并不真实。

It's not very real.

你们是自己开发的吗？

And you guys developed this?

所以，首先我要为你们解决这个问题、认识到它并持有这种态度点赞，因为这太重要了，大明星们很容易只想着自己的

Is this so this is something that you would like, kudos to you guys for addressing this, first of all, and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and it's so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves in their

职业生涯。

own career.

乔。

Joe.

我们来自剑桥。

We're from Cambridge.

让车继续开着。

Keep the car running.

嗯。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

但但但每一个协议都存在这种情况，我们迄今为止做的每一个协议都不同，因为我们和不同的工作室、平台等达成了协议。

But but but each each deal has had this kind of each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with the, you know, different studios and platforms and stuff like that.

而且基本上是事后才想起我们，说：嘿，我们超额完成了任务，干得很棒，有额外的钱，给你们。

And just involved us basically retroactively going, hey, we came in under, we did a great job, there's extra money, here you go.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是我们第一次能够真正制定出一个时间表，因为顺便说一下，如果没有Netflix说‘好吧’，我们是不可能做到的。

This is the first time that we were able to to actually create like a schedule where it's like because and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going, okay.

酷。

Cool.

你觉得你能让这件事成真吗？

You think you can make this work?

这是我们愿意给你一次机会。

Is this we'll give you a shot.

否则，我们根本做不到。

Otherwise, we wouldn't have able to do it.

所以我们得说，听着。

So we had to say, look.

我们不是要你让出分成。

We're not asking you to take a cut.

但你知道，如果我们能告诉你，这部电影在前90天内的观看时长能达到像你都知道的那部电影A那样的水平，那大概就是你20%的薪水，对吧？

But you know if we can and we can tell you if the movie is watched as many hours in the first ninety days as like this movie A that you all know what it is then that's you know 20% of your salary let's say right?

我的意思是，你要承受损失。

I mean you take a hit.

所以就是这样，你赚得更多，奖金也更多，一切都跟你所达到的水平挂钩，因为这是我们想到的最公平的方案。

So it's like yeah you make more money your bonus is more it's all just pegged to where you're at just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with.

所以他们给了我们五个不同的级别，对吧？

So they gave us like five different levels right?

比如前两个级别我们希望能达到，第三个可能也能达成，然后就到了

Like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get and then it got to

第五个级别。

like the fifth one.

就像一垒、二垒、三垒，然后全垒打。

Like single double triple home run.

全垒打，简直是满贯全垒打。

Home run fucking grand slam.

第五个级别是要求达到Netflix所有观众的110%之类的。

The fifth one was was a 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that.

所以每个有Netflix账户的人都看了，然后大约有10%的人又看了一遍，我们当时说：‘哦，这是K-pop恶魔猎手。’

So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again And we were like Oh, it's K pop demon.

如果这是最大的K-pop恶魔猎手现象的话。

If this is the biggest K demon hunters happened.

我们当时在笑，结果K-pop恶魔猎手真的做到了。

We were laughing and then K pop demon hunters came along and actually did that.

这是第一部做到这一点的电影，天啊。

That's the first movie that's ever Jesus.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我觉得很多

Well, I think a lot

自闭症儿童一遍又一遍地看，

of autistic kids watch that over and over and

而且看了好多遍。

and over seen it.

我的意思是，有人一直在看它

I I mean, somebody's watching it over

哦，没错。

and Oh, yeah.

老兄，人们超爱这个。

Dude, people love it.

我的意思是，它的价值在于，之前大家在罢工中争抢的最大焦点之一就是分成，以前是有重播酬金的。

I mean, it's, you know, it the the the value of it is the biggest before this, one of the big things that everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, share your there used to be residuals.

对吧？

Right?

重播酬金只适用于演员工会和少数其他群体，但你知道，如果你在电影里有一句台词，当票房达到某个数字时，你就能再拿到两千美元，这可是大事。

Residuals and it was only for SAG and a few other things but it was like and you knew if you had a line in the movie and there would be a certain number like at the box office where you're gonna get another $2,000 and that was a big deal.

收到那张支票，心想，太好了，我又可以付一个月房租了，能继续干这行了。

Get that check-in the mail and like okay I can pay the rent for another month and I can do that shit.

但后来，人们对什么是成功开始有了模糊的认识。

But then it then there was this like sort of ill of what constitutes success?

因为流媒体平台在你观看这部电影时，并不会实际卖出另一张票。

Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie right?

很难说清楚，那你为什么要订阅这个服务呢？

It's hard to tell well why did you sign up for this service right?

所以有一段时间，大家都在关注你订阅时第一个看的内容——比如你买了Hulu，你第一眼看了什么？

So for a while everyone's looking at the first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody okay you're gonna go buy Hulu what did you watch first?

《熊》。

The bear.

好吧，《熊》肯定为我们创造了价值，但你无法给它一个精确的数值，因为它不像票房那样，你可以清楚地说《奥本海默》赚了十亿美元，或者类似的数据，从而在我们的资产负债表上再增加十亿美元，因为流媒体采用的是订阅模式。

Well the bear must be creating value for us but it's you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go well know Oppenheimer's a billion dollars or whatever and you know that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model you know.

这就像健身房会员，或者年初你心想：‘我要重新开始健身了’，于是买了年卡，但你可能只去了两次，也可能每天都去，但你付的钱是一样的。

Whether it's like a gym membership or in the fucking you know first of the year you're like I'm gonna work out again I'm gonna buy that annual membership and you go twice or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount.

另外，流媒体的一个奇怪之处在于，当你打开Netflix时，并不像去电影院那样有七部电影在放映。

Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing.

你打开Netflix时，面对的是一个无限的选择列表。

You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list.

内容多得简直不可思议。

It's insane how much content.

你这辈子都看不完，没错。

You could waste the rest of your life Yeah.

坐在Netflix前消磨时光，直到死去，还有数百万小时的内容等着你看或听。

Sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have, you know, millions of hours more to listen to or watch.

你说得对。

You're right.

当我们刚开始研究这个话题，并建立自己的数据来分析用户行为时，发现人们实际上一直在看那些老节目。

Like, when we'd start researching that and built our own data to pull people and examine all this stuff, it's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time.

如果说新内容理论上能留住用户订阅，但从观看时长来看，真正受欢迎的其实是那些老剧，比如《女子监狱》、《律政狂人》、《老友记》和《宋飞正传》。

If you said like the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever, but in terms of like volume of time, I think, and doesn't come from them, but it looks a lot like, you know, we're gonna watch, like, Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and Mhmm.

你知道的，《烘焙大赛》之类的节目才是主流，因为美国人每天要看六个小时电视。

What you know, Cupcake Wars or you know, that that's what's because Americans watch six hours of TV a day.

对吧？

Right?

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

然后

And then

另外六小时他们都在玩手机。

the other six hours are on their phone.

那怎么还能做成事呢？

Like, how does anything get done?

怎么还能做到

How does anything

做成事呢？

get done?

当你开始拍这部电影时，过程是怎样的？

When you started to make this film, like, what what is the process?

你们是怎么达成一致的？

Like, how did you guys agree on it?

你们是先写好了剧本吗？

Like, what did you guys have it written first?

是乔·卡根写的乔。

Was it Joe Cargan wrote Joe.

所以在你们知道要和Netflix合作之前？

So Before you knew you were going to Netflix with it?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他带着剧本来找我们，我们早就认识乔了，他拍过一部电影。

He came to us with the script, and we've known Joe for a really he did a movie.

他的第一部电影叫《Gnarc》。

His first movie is called Gnarc.

我不确定你有没有看过。

I don't know if you ever saw it.

嗯。

Yeah.

太棒了。

It's terrific.

一部好电影。

Great movie.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我们早在二十五年前就认识他了，或者差不多是那时候。

So we met him way back this twenty five years ago or something like that.

那时候我们认识了他，本拍了一部他的电影

And so we met him met him back then, and Ben did a movie of

《Smokin' Hastings》。

his The Smokin' Hastings.

四部，我觉得。

Four, I think.

所以我们认识乔已经很久了，这些年一直保持联系，他刚刚把这部作品发给我们，说他读了之后觉得特别棒，就为公司买下了它。

And so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years, and and he just sent this to us and said we read it, we thought it was great and and and and bought it for the company.

然后我们开始和乔讨论，他是怎么看这部作品的，他想怎么拍，他建议我们 actually 来拍这部电影。

And then we started talking to Joe about, you know, how he saw it, you know, how he wanted to do it and and he suggested that we'd actually do the movie.

我们当时就说，对啊，我们为什么不拍呢？

And we and we're like, yeah, why don't we do it?

这看起来似乎

It seems

基本上是因为我们喜欢它。

Basically because we like it.

我们喜欢它。

We like it.

这部分是

Part of this is

我们并不是只想拍自己的电影。

we're not trying to just do our movies.

我们希望和那些我们喜欢并尊重的人一起拍电影。

We wanna be, you know, doing movies with all these the people that we like and respect.

然后，我们设定的方式是，历史上通常是这样的：制片厂拥有某个IP、剧本之类的，然后你去谈，他们会说：好的，我们想让你拍，那多少钱？你上一部拿了多少？预算多少？他们就用这些来评估价值。但我的想法是，尤其是当这些流媒体平台涌入市场、争相抢购时，这部电影可能值更多，也可能值更少，我们所有人都受此影响，所以我们尽量争取最好的价格，然后按比例共同分享。实际上，我们已经用这个方式做了八部左右的电影了，我们把它拿出来，人们想要，而Netflix真正吸引我们的地方在于，他们愿意接受我们一直想制度化的这种模式。

And and and then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like the historically the way it's worked is like the you know studio will own an IP or a script or whatever and then you cut and they'll say okay we want you to do it okay well how much well how much do you get for the last one right and you go and what's the budget and then that's how they assign a value to it right But my belief was well especially when these streams are coming into the market and chasing stuff is like this movie may be worth more, it may be worth less and that we're all just subject to that so we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it you know pro rata and essentially that was the same process we've done eight I guess movies or so now and we took it out and you know people wanted it and then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize.

我当时就想，太好了，这真的很有意义，因为理想情况下，这会成为其他人的模板，他们会说：嘿，我们也想这么做，然后我们就可以说：喏，这是文件。

I was like okay great that's that's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template to other people go hey we want to do that thing you know and then we go oh here's the paperwork.

没错，很多人都说他们想这么做，但现在模板已经存在了，就像即插即用一样。

Yeah that's the thing like a lot of people say that they would want to do it but it now now that template exists so it's like plug and play.

所以，如果你不是在吹牛，真的打算这么做，那很简单，拿去用吧。

So if you're if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that then guess what just take this and

而且这也能帮你，我希望，更好地管理风险。

And it also is gonna let you you know I hope like manage the risk.

换句话说，你总是会遇到这样的争论：天啊，我们得在电影上投这么多钱，所以主角不能太招人反感，不能太前卫，也不能定为R级，因为那样成本太高了。

In other words the argument you always have is like well shit we gotta invest all this money in the movie so you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable, that's too edgy or can't be r rated because it costs this much.

我明白，对吧？

I get it right?

你会把所有的钱都投进去。

You're gonna put all your money into it.

你不想看到钱莫名其妙地消失。

You want you don't want money to fucking disappear.

你想赚钱吗？

You want to make money?

好吧。

Okay.

所以当我们写第一部电影《心灵捕手》时，我们知道那部电影必须拍得便宜。

So it's like when we wrote the first movie that we're in Good Will Hunting it was like we knew that had to be a cheap movie.

因为人们只会在房间里对话，没人愿意为我们的电影投一大笔钱

People talking in rooms to each other because no one's gonna put a bunch of money

投给我们这样的团队。

into a movie with us.

两个没人听说过的混蛋。

Two assholes that no one heard of.

所以我们想，好吧，我们能做点什么有趣的事，尽量控制成本，以便说服别人投资拍这部电影。

So it was like okay, what can we do that's interesting and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie.

这种逻辑在你每次请求别人投资时都会延续下去。

That same logic like carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something.

所以，我希望的是：既然我们现在知道有一个可靠的系统，明白一旦成功我们真的能受益，我们可以降低你们的前期投入门槛，让你们能以极低的风险参与进来，这样我们就能做一些真正有趣、原创的东西，比如《奥本海默》、《罪恶》或者《马丁·斯科塞斯》那样的作品。

So what I'd like to have happen is to say okay now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that like in success we'll actually benefit, we can lower the price upfront for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting that's an original idea, that's an Oppenheimer or Sinners or a fucking Marty Supreme or whatever it is.

如果成功了，我们不会像一群混蛋那样，让你们把所有钱都拿走，而是可以持续地让你们参与进来，这样你们就能制作更多有趣的作品。

And then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes where you guys walk off with all the money, but and you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more interesting stuff.

很多关于罢工的事情

A lot of those stuff that

当时罢工的焦点集中在人工智能以及AI将如何影响这个行业。

was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is gonna do to the business.

你觉得AI最大的问题会是什么？

Like, what where do you feel is gonna be, like, the biggest problem with AI?

会涉及到人们的肖像吗？

Is it gonna be with people's likenesses?

因为有很多这种情况，他们想使用群众演员并永久拥有他们的数字权利，本质上能够将他们复刻到任何类型的电影中。

Because there's a lot of that where they want they wanna use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film.

但同时，也会有由人工智能撰写的电影。

But then there's also you're gonna have films that are written by artificial intelligence.

你会看到一些不涉及人的场景，这就变得怪异了。

You're gonna have scenes that don't involve people, and it gets weird.

对吧？

Right?

确实会变得非常怪异，但实际上有一个

It gets really weird, but there's actually an

适合他的领域。

area that's for him.

是的。

Yeah.

我们一直花时间研究这个。

We've been spending time looking at this.

我的看法是，这有点像电力会发生什么？

Like, my belief is it's sort of like, what's gonna happen with electricity?

电力会带来很多变化。

Well, a lot of shit's gonna happen with electricity.

有些是好事，有些会改变事物，有些则会像……你知道的，导致很多人死亡的东西。

Some of it's gonna be good, some of it's gonna change stuff, some of it's gonna be, like, you know, it gonna be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people.

比如，如果你试图让ChatGPT、Claude或Gemini给你写点东西，那简直烂透了。

Like, it's it's it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, talk about in a kind of a blanket way, but I think with what I see is, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty.

它之所以烂，是因为它的本质就是趋向平均、趋向平庸。

And it's shitty because by its nature it goes to the mean, to the average.

不可靠，我的意思是，我根本无法忍受看到这些糟糕的东西。

And not reliable and it's I mean, I just can't stand to see what's right.

不过，如果你是个作家，想设定某个场景，比如有人寄信但延迟了两天才收到，它倒是个有用的工具，能给你一些例子。

Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, what's the thing I'm trying to set something up or somebody sends someone a letter but it's delayed two days and gets and they can give you some examples of that.

我其实不觉得它能写出任何有意义的东西，尤其是像霍尔克洛斯那样的蒂莉·诺顿风格的电影，那完全是胡扯。

I actually don't think it's very likely that it can it's gonna be able to write anything meaningful or and in particular that it's going to be making movies like from Holcloth like Tilly Norton like that's bullshit.

我不认为这种事情会发生。

I don't think that's going to happen.

我认为，事实是这项技术并没有像他们所描述的那样发展。

I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it.

事实上，它只不过是一个工具。

And really what it is, is going be a tool.

就像视觉特效一样，是的，它需要有相应的语言规范，你需要保护自己的姓名和肖像权，这是可以做到的，你可以给它加水印。

Just like sort of visual effects and yeah, it needs to have language around it, you need to protect your name and likeness, you can do that, you can watermark it.

这些法律已经存在了。

Those laws already exist.

我不能拿你的照片去赚钱。

I can't sell your fucking picture for money.

我不能这么做，你可以起诉我。

I can't, you can sue me.

就这样。

Period.

我可能有能力以非常逼真的方式描绘你，但这已经违法了，工会和行会会对此进行管理，比如：好吧，如果这个工具真的能帮到我们，例如，我们就不必去北极了，对吧？

I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law and the unions are gonna the guilds are gonna manage this where it's like, Okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right?

我们可以在公园里穿着羽绒服拍摄场景，不管是什么情况，然后让它看起来非常逼真，仿佛我们真的在北极，这样能节省大量时间和金钱。

We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and you know, whatever it is, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole, It'll save us a lot of money, lot of time.

我们将专注于表演，而不是在外面冻得要死，还得跑回室内。

We're gonna focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside.

这很有用。

That's useful.

就像斯宾塞·特雷西和凯瑟琳·赫本过去开车时，背景里有一幅画被风吹得晃动，看起来很滑稽。

Just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them and look goofy.

而现在，计算机生成的人物大量使用计算机生成的内容，其中一些将取代这类做法。

And, you know, Now, know, computer generated people use a lot of computer generated stuff and some of it is gonna replace just that.

比如，不再需要500个在新加坡、每小时只赚2美元的人来渲染超级英雄电影的所有图形，现在可以更容易地完成这项工作。

Like, instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2 an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, there's gonna be able to do that a lot easier.

目前已经有关于必须使用多少名工会群众演员的法律法规和工会指南。

There's already laws around and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use.

但我们也一直在用替身演员来填补场景，就像中土世界并没有一百万个兽人一样。

But also we've been tiling extras like there weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

那里并没有什么‘无敌者’。

There aren't Invictus.

体育场里也没有那么多的人。

There weren't all those people in the stadium.

这其实是我们一直都在做的事情。

Like, that's something we've been doing.

对我来说，这感觉就像我们之前讨论过的，现在有更多恐惧，因为我们有一种末日般的焦虑。

It kinda feels to me like I think we're talking about earlier where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense this existential dread.

它会把一切全都抹去。

It's gonna wipe everything out.

对。

Right.

但在我看来，这实际上与历史所显示的情况相反，即采用过程是缓慢且渐进的。

But that actually runs counter in my view to what history seems to show, which is adoption is slow, it's incremental.

我认为，很多这种言论来自于那些试图为公司估值辩护的人，他们声称我们将彻底改变一切。

I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies where they go, we're gonna change everything.

两年内，工作将不复存在。

In two years, there's gonna be no more work.

他们这样说的原因是，他们需要为投资赋予一个估值，以证明他们在这些数据中心上的资本支出是合理的，理由是：一旦我们推出下一个模型，性能就会提升三倍。

Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the CapEx spend they're gonna make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up and be three times as good.

但事实上，ChatGPT-5比ChatGPT-4仅提升了约25%，而耗电量和数据成本却高出约四倍。

Except that actually ChatGP five, about 25 time percent better than ChatGP four and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data.

所以当他们说AI已经趋于平稳时，早期AI的增长曲线非常陡峭，而现在则逐渐趋于平缓。

So when they say that it's like plateauing, the early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off.

我认为这是因为AI确实会变得更好，但要变得更好将变得极其昂贵。

I think it's because and yes it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better.

很多人觉得算了，我们还是用ChatGPT-4吧，因为事实上，绝大多数使用AI的人只是把它当作晚上聊天的陪伴型机器人。

A lot of people were like fuck this, we want ChatGPT four because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like as like companion bots to chat with at night.

所以这里没有工作，没有生产力，也没有任何价值。

And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it.

我认为，让人们专注于一个AI朋友，让它不断夸你、倾听你的一切、对你阿谀奉承，这也没什么太大的社会价值。

I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to, like, focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic.

但这只是个次要问题。

But that's sort of a side issue.

在我看来，这项技术擅长什么、不擅长什么，它的作用将是填补那些成本高昂、负担沉重的领域，而当这些领域越来越难被替代时，它始终还是得依赖人类的艺术性层面。

I think for this particular purpose like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and then they get harder to do it It's always gonna rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.

我认为，随着AI变得越来越普及，人们会越来越欣赏由真人亲手制作的东西。

Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are gonna appreciate real things that are made by real people.

你知道的。

You know?

比如，你还是会欣赏一张手工制作的桌子。

Like, you're you you still appreciate a handmade table.

你知道的？

You know?

你肯定会欣赏《内心的野兽》吧，克莱尔·丹妮丝演的？

You're you're gonna appreciate like, did you see The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?

嗯。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我没看过。

I didn't.

我看过。

I did.

太好了。

Great.

嗯。

Yeah.

我听说这部剧很棒。

I heard it was great.

那位女士。

That lady.

哇哦。

Whoo.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Was terrific.

哇哦。

Whoo.

她一出场，你就忍不住想：天哪。

When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ.

出色的女演员。

Great, great actress.

就像你感觉她那该死的嘴唇在颤抖。

Like you like her fucking lips are quivering.

就像你完全相信她说的每一句话。

Like, believe everything that she's saying.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

人们就是想要这种感觉。

People want that.

人们没法假装被囚禁。

Can't people can't fake captivity.

你没错。

You can't Right.

我跟你说，我曾经采访过道恩·约翰逊，因为颁奖季的时候，他们有时会让其他演员去采访受访者，我就做了这次采访，我问了道恩一个场景，就是《摔跤手》里他吸毒过量，朋友去医院看他那段。

I'll tell you, like, I I did this interview with with Dwayne Johnson because they, you know, they when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them, you know, and I did this interview with Dwayne and and and I asked him, there's this scene in the smashing machine where where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital.

对。

Yeah.

这个场景真的深深震撼了我。

And and it really walloped me, this scene.

我觉得太棒了。

I thought it was so great.

我问他，我就直接说：你能跟我讲讲这个场景吗？

And and I asked him and I was just like, you just tell me about this scene?

是本尼·萨菲迪执导的吗？

Like, Benny Benny Safdie directed it?

本尼写了这个场景吗？

Did Benny write this write that?

你和他们一起拍了这个场景吗？

Did you work on that scene with them?

他回答说：没有。

Did you he goes, no.

其实我们是一起打磨这个场景的。

We we actually worked on it together.

于是我问：‘这个场景是怎么来的？’

And I go, well, how did that scene come to be?

杜安说：‘我父亲是个酒鬼。’

And Duane goes, well, my father was an alcoholic.

我不记得他到底是说‘药物滥用者’还是‘酒鬼’，但我不认识那个人。

And I don't remember if he said substance abuser, alcoholic, but but I didn't know the man.

我不想诋毁他。

I don't wanna impugn him.

但他确实有药物问题，不管那是什么。

But but he had he had a substance issue, whatever it was.

他说，当他跟我谈话时，你知道，那就是他为自己辩解的方式。

He goes, and and when he would talk to me, you know, that's how he would defend himself.

这几乎是一种讨价还价，因为当这个人来找他时，他已经过量了，而杜安在这场戏中的表现非常出色。

He was almost a bargaining thing because there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed and Duane's amazing in this scene.

他当时的样子是这样的：

He's he's going like, he's going like

是啊，这不是很疯狂吗？然后我醒过来，心想我的天

yeah isn't it crazy and then I woke up and thought I mean

我能听到他说话，但其实听不太清，你看到他，他有点在原地踏步，他的朋友最终逼得他无路可退，就在那一刻，杜安突然泪如雨下，直接拉过医院的被子蒙住了头。

I could hear him but I couldn't really hear him and you see him he's kind of tap dancing and his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire and at that moment Duane literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head.

然后就是这样，就是这样，我的意思是，它真的，它就是，如果你没看过，我根本没法形容出来，我的意思是，我

And it's like, and it's, and it's, I mean, it just, it was, I'm not doing it justice if you haven't, I mean, I

你知道你看过，你知道你看过，但你看过

know you've it, know you've But seen it,

他说，是的。

he said, yeah.

所以他解释了关于他父亲的事，然后他说，当我妈妈被诊断出三期肺癌时，我陪在她身边，当时肿瘤科医生进来了，她正躺在病床上。

So he explains that about his father and then he goes, and and when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed.

当医生告诉她病情时，她拉过被子蒙住了头，我看着她，她看起来就像个小孩子一样。

And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head and I looked at her and she just looked like a little a little kid, you know.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, alright.

也就是说，这两个人生中的创伤事件，来自他的生活经历。

Like, so that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right, from his life experience.

而作为演员的他，看到这个场景，回忆起这些经历，提取出这两件事，明白它们适合这个场景，并能将它们融合在一起。

And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene.

然后他就以这种方式去表演。

And then he goes and performs it that way.

一个路人走进电影院，看到这一幕， somehow 感觉到它无比真实。

And a dude walking in off the road goes to the movies, sees this, understands somehow that it's fucking real.

我不明白为什么。

I didn't know why.

所以我才想问他，这个场景是怎么来的。

That's why I wanted to ask him how did that scene come to be.

我真的不知道。

I genuinely didn't know.

它让我泪流满面，你知道，这种情感是任何AI都无法做到的。

And made me tear up and you know like that is there's no fucking AI that can do that.

不。

No.

这远不止是逼真的图像。

It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images.

是的。

Yeah.

你也许可以让AI理解杜安的脸，并把他的脸移到不同的表情上，但没有任何东西能做到

You could you could you could have an AI understand Duane's face and move his face into different no fucking thing could ever

那样。

do that.

真实生活经历的复杂性被传达出来

The complications of real life experiences relayed

这是完全属于人类的。

That is a completely human.

这是一种艺术，是一位艺术家。

That is an art that is an artist.

那是一件艺术品。

That's a piece of art.

是的。

Yes.

它源自真实的人类体验。

Comes out of a lived human experience.

那部电影让我感到非常焦虑。

That movie gave me so much anxiety.

有一些场景中，艾米莉·布朗特

There's moments where Emily Blunt is

在电影里和我争吵。

arguing with me in that movie.

我说，我真的说，我觉得她在这部电影里的表现是她最棒的。

I said I really said I I I was like, that I think I think that's the best she's ever been.

你知道，我们住在纽约同一栋楼里。

I live you know, we live in the same building in New York.

她是我非常亲密的朋友，我当时真的觉得那是她演得最好的一次。

She's, a very dear friend of mine, and I and I I I I was like, I I really think that's the best she's ever been.

然后我跟克里斯托弗·诺兰说了这句话，他停了一下，看着我，虽然没说话，但意思好像是：她在我的电影里也演得相当棒。

And then I said and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan, and and he kinda stopped and looked at me like he didn't say it, but he was kinda like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie too.

她真是

Well, she's

很棒，没得说。

great, period.

她很棒，没得说。

She's great, period.

她很棒，没得说。

She's great, period.

但有一点是，我认识马克。

But there's something about that well, I knew Mark.

我认识马克，是1997年他在打UFC的时候认识的。

I I knew Mark from I met Mark in '97 when he was fighting in the UFC.

所以我了解他整个历程。

So I knew the whole journey of him.

我为道恩感到非常高兴，因为这部电影里，他不再是那个该死的超级英雄、大片式的壮汉形象，而是能以这样的形象成为一名出色的演员。

And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero, blockbuster, Hulk of a man, he gets to be that but be an great actor.

你知道，很难让一个人看起来那样，还能表达情感，而他演的就是马克·科尔。

And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that to express emotions and express and and he was Mark Kerr.

我知道。

I know.

如果你了解马克，我的意思是，

If you know Mark, I mean,

那真是他妈的精彩表演。

it was fucking great acting.

我完全忘了那是他，有个看过这部电影的人告诉我会发生这种情况。

I completely forgot it was him, and somebody who had seen it before told me that was gonna happen.

我当时就说，好吧。

And I was like, alright.

我们走着瞧。

We'll see.

从一开始就这样。

And it was like from the second it started out.

虽然观看这部电影的人数没有得到应有的认可，但我相信随着时间的推移，人们会欣赏它的。

It didn't get the credit deserved in terms of, like, the amount of people that went to see it, but I think overall in time, people appreciate it.

这就是人们会回头再看并谈论的原因。

That's one of people will go back to Yeah.

并且会讨论它。

And talk about it.

一部关于综合格斗的电影。

A movie about MMA.

所以很多人会说：我不想看一部关于一群肌肉笨蛋的电影，但其实不是这样的。

So a lot of people are like, I don't wanna see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads, but it's not.

它只是恰好以综合格斗为背景，但这部电影非常出色。

It's just a movie that happens to be around MA, but it MMA, but it's a great movie.

是的。

Yeah.

那些场景简直太棒了。

The the the scenes are fucking fantastic.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

表演太好了。

The acting is so good.

绝对。

Absolutely.

还有那些打斗场面，真的太真实了，老兄。

And the right and even this the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man.

简直就像我亲眼看过那些比赛一样。

It's really like they I've saw all those fights.

他们把那些比赛还原得几乎完美了。

They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get.

是的。

Yeah.

还有他疯狂的挣扎。

And just his crazy struggle.

你知道这部纪录片《粉碎机》背后的故事吗？

And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine?

不知道。

No.

所以，当马克处于巅峰状态、自信心爆棚时，他创造了‘粉碎机’这个形象，那时他是世界上最可怕的人。

So the Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride, and he was the most terrifying guy in the world.

是的。

Yeah.

他体重二百六十五磅，全身都是结实的肌肉，横扫一切对手，根本不像个普通人。

He was two hundred and sixty five pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people, didn't even look like a human being.

每个人都害怕他。

Everyone was terrified of him.

没人知道他是个药物成瘾者。

No one knew he was a drug addict.

没人知道。

No one knew.

在拍摄过程中，他逐渐失控，并允许他们拍摄他。

And he spiraled out as they were filming, and he let them film him.

让他们拍他注射毒品。

Let them film him shooting up.

让他们拍他带着一大包药和各种东西到处走，彻底崩溃。

Let them film him, like, bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all his shit everywhere and just completely falling apart.

当时他们本应捕捉这位英雄的

While they were supposed to be capturing this hero

电影，没错。

movie Right.

这位世界上最伟大的拳击手正在纪录片镜头前真实地崩塌。

Of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart, like, live in front of the documentary.

这是一部太棒的纪录片了。

It was fucking amazing documentary.

我得看看。

I gotta see it.

这真的很好，而且我很高兴他们把它拍成了电影。

It's really good, but the I was so happy that they put it in a film.

我很高兴这部电影让巨石强森有机会展示他真正的实力，因为他在很多角色中都受到太多限制。

And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of because he's so so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，渐渐地，还有星际般的成功。

And by and by, like, galactic success too.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，他不得不，而且将来也必须继续为此努力。

I mean, it's it's it's he he has he had to and will continue to have to push for that.

对吧？

Right?

因为这是他想要的。

Because it's what he wants.

嗯。

Yeah.

而不是因为别人希望他继续做的那些事——你知道的，那些能给他们带来巨额利润的事情。

And not because what because what what they're gonna continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that that that mints them money.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我怀疑他对这部电影的体验和感受。

But I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie.

根据我和他交谈过的那些内容，是的，这确实改变了他。

From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this this is this is this has changed him.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这些超级英雄角色必须做点什么，因为如果不改变，你就会被定型。

Well, I mean, it's like this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're gonna be boxed.

没错。

Yeah.

对于一个长成那样的人来说，把他放进那个框里太容易了。

And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box.

所以你现在可以看到他，他瘦了，减了很多体重。

And so you can see him now, he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight.

就像戴夫·巴蒂斯塔也经历过非常类似的事情。

Like Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing too.

对吧？

Right?

他希望拥有更多元的演技范围，想要有更多机会去尝试刺激、不同且富有挑战性的角色。

He wanted to be he wanted to have more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things.

另外，也要想想他来自什么样的背景。

Well, think also coming from where he came from.