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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
晚上是乔·罗根播客，全天都是。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
是的。
Yes.
安德鲁。
Andrew.
你好。
Hello.
很高兴见到你，兄弟。
Good to see you, brother.
很高兴
Good to
见到你。
see you too.
你说过，几乎整整六年了，差不多就是上一次见面的时候。
It has been, you said, six years almost to the day Almost to the last time.
所以变化很大。
So Lots changed.
就在一切变得疯狂之前。
Right before everything went crazy.
那是
That's
的。
it.
就在那之前。
Right before.
是的。
Yeah.
整个世界都发生了某种转变。
The whole world sort of shifted.
大概三月左右一切都乱了。
Went cookie around March.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以那是2020年2月，然后我们就遇到了新冠疫情，接着中间还经历了特朗普执政。
So it was February 2020, and then then we have COVID, and then we have, you know, we've had Trump in between of that.
还有黑人的命也是命运动。
We have BLM.
2020年，这一切一经发布就彻底爆发了。
That 2020, everything just exploded when it came out.
然后，是的，一切都发生了转变。
And, yeah, and then everything shifted.
所以，而且
So And
然后你写了一本书。
then you wrote a book.
你写了一本书。
You wrote a book.
这本书叫《觉醒的终结：文化战争如何走得太远，以及如何应对反动浪潮》。
It's called The End of Woke, How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect from the Counter Revolution.
不过，这不一直都是这样吗？
Isn't that how it always goes, though?
它总是这样，我们走得太远了，是的。
It goes, like, we go too far Yeah.
然后我们矫枉过正，变成了纳粹。
And then we overcorrect, and we become Nazis.
是的。
Yeah.
或者
Or
就是这样。
That's it.
没错。
Exactly.
嗯，你
Well, you
知道，或者正好相反。
know Or it's it's the opposite.
我们走向社会主义。
We go socialist.
你知道吧？
You know?
这就像一个巨大的摆钟。
It's it's a big pendulum.
我明白。
I get that.
它基本上是来回摆动的。
It sort of goes back and forth.
我的意思是，我在那本书里试图表达的是，‘觉醒文化’其实是某种与生俱来的权威主义冲动的最新表现形式。
I mean, I was trying to in that book, was I'm trying to make the point that what woke was was like a kind of the latest manifestation of an a kind of innate authoritarian impulse.
我认为人类天生就倾向于压制那些他们不喜欢的人。
I think human beings are, by default, quite inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them.
是的。
Yeah.
只是强行施加他们的权威。
Just imposing their authority.
所以，‘觉醒’这个词让很多人感到不满，因为我称之为工作的终结
And so woke mean, a lot of people are annoyed that I've called it the end
的工作。
of work.
我不是说一切都结束了。
I'm not saying it's all over.
我们回家吧。
Let's just go home.
别管它了。
Forget about it.
它还在继续。
It's still going on.
但
But the
关键在于，以它当前的表现形式，事情正在迅速变化。
point about it is is that in its current manifestation, things are changing now so rapidly.
我们正在进入某种新的阶段。
We are moving into some sort of new phase.
而我们曾与左派联系起来的威权主义，可能会从右派兴起，它可能来自任何地方。
And that authoritarianism, which we've associated with the left, might come up from the right, it could come up from anywhere.
这就是你所说的钟摆效应。
It's what you say about the pendulum.
所以你只需要对此保持警惕。
So you just have to be kind of vigilant about it.
我认为我们不够警惕。
I don't think we were vigilant.
我认为这就是‘觉醒’文化兴起的原因。
I think that's why woke happened.
我们当时没有警惕这种可能性，你知道，在我们原以为的自由社会里也可能出现威权主义。
We weren't vigilant against this prospect that you know, authoritarianism could emerge in what we thought was a free society.
嗯，威权主义是披着羊皮悄悄潜入的。
Well, authoritarianism, it snuck in through a sheep costume.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的。
You know?
披着羊皮的狼。
A wolf in a sheep's costume.
是的。
Yeah.
它披着包容、开放、建设更美好社会、更友善的外衣，结果却导致了儿童性别手术，引发了混乱。
It was a it was a costume of being more inclusive, being more open minded, being a better society, being kinder, you know, and and it led to, you know, child trans surgeries, led to chaos.
还导致了许多你根本想不到的、极其怪异的事情。
It led to, like, a lot of, like, really fucking freaky things that you'd have never expected.
有人竟然说第一修正案并不重要。
People people saying that the First Amendment's not important.
对。
Right.
更重要的是保护人们。
What's more important is protecting people.
好吧，这正是关键，不是吗？
Well, that was the key, wasn't it?
重点在于，它的运作方式是通过听起来非常甜美、可爱、柔和的语言来质问人们。
The point was that the way it worked was that it was grilling people through language that sounded really sweet and kitten ish and fluffy.
比如‘公平’这样的词。
You know, things like equity.
这听起来和‘平等’很像，不是吗？
Well that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it?
对。
Right.
但是
But
它并不意味着平等，而是根据群体身份，以不平等的方式对待人，以确保结果平等。
it doesn't mean equality, it means treating people unequally to ensure equal outcomes according to group identity.
这是完全不同的事情。
That's a very different thing.
你说你在谈‘让我们包容一切’，但你真正意思是‘让我们排斥任何不同意我们观点的人’。
You say you're talking about 'let's make everything inclusive', but what you really mean is 'let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say'.
所以你是在用语言表达完全相反的含义。
So you're using language to mean the exact opposite.
他们说性别肯定护理。
They say gender affirming care.
他们真的这个意思吗？
Do they mean that?
还是说他们是在肯定一种在脆弱人群中流行的伪科学信念？
Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudoscientific belief among vulnerable people?
所以这一切都是关于滥用语言，因为我认为大多数人——或者我愿意相信——都是相当善良的。
So it's all about misusing language because most people I think, or I like to think, are pretty decent.
是的。
Yeah.
但大多数人都是想与人为善、想要公平的。
But most people want to be kind and want to be fair.
当你听到这些活动人士说，要善良，要有同情心，否则的话。
And when you hear these activists saying, be kind, be compassionate, or else.
对吧？
Right?
你明白吗？
You know?
你大概会想，好吧。
You kind of think, okay.
嗯，也许他们的初衷是好的，但也挺吓人的。
Well, maybe their intentions are good, but also they're pretty scary.
我的意思是，觉醒主义这件事有点诡异，一方面它宣称自己是那种伟大、高尚、仁慈、进步、站在历史正确一边的力量。
I mean, there's there's a there's a weird there was a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that, on the one hand, it proclaimed to be this sort of great, virtuous, kind, progressive, right side of history.
你以前经常听到这种说法吗？
How often did you hear that phrase?
是的。
Right.
而与此同时，他们又像危险的恶犬。
And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs.
就像，你会觉得，哦，最好别惹他们生气。
Like, you're you're you're like, oh, better not piss them off.
我最好别在工作场合说错话，因为他们会彻底毁了你。
I better not say the wrong thing in the workplace because they'll just they'll destroy you.
嗯，我总觉得，一个想法越是荒谬、越经不起推敲，其强制推行的手段就会越暴力，因为你无法用理性去反驳它。
Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is and the the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent the enforcement of that idea will be because you cannot combat that.
你无法用逻辑为那个想法辩护，所以只能用恐惧和武力来维护它，没错。
You you can't defend that idea with logic, so you have to defend it with fear and force Yeah.
而且就是靠大声压制别人，这正是我们所看到的情况。
And just just shouting people down, and that's what we saw.
而这正是人类的一种自然冲动。
And that's it's a natural impulse of human beings.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
就像你和小孩争论时那样。
Like, when you're arguing with a kid.
你知道，当你还是个孩子，和另一个孩子争论时，你说点什么，你甚至不知道——你就直接闭嘴。
You know, when you're a kid and you're arguing with a kid and you say something, you don't even know you you shut the fuck up.
就像他们开始吓唬你一样。
Like, they just started scaring you.
那么为什么有些国家和社会似乎比其他地方更能保护自己呢？是的。
So why is it though that some countries and some societies seem to protect themselves better than others Yeah.
对抗那种冲动？
Against that against that impulse?
而且我觉得目前英国在这方面有些失败，而美国在某种程度上是成功的，当然不是在所有方面，但在自由和言论自由的理念上。
And I feel at the moment that The UK is kind of failing where America is to a degree succeed, not in, obviously, in all ways, but when it comes to the idea of freedom and free speech.
就像，我认为英国已经很大程度上屈服于那种‘觉醒’的坚持，即你需要控制人们的语言来创造一个永远无法实现的完美社会。
Like, I think UK is pretty far has pretty fallen to the kind of the the the woke insistence that you need to control people's language so that you can create this perfect society, which can never come anyway.
就是你
It's just you
我觉得这已经被利用了。
Well, think it's been co opted.
我认为任何从社会中自然涌现出来的有机版本都是如此，是的。
I think whatever organic version of that emerges naturally from society Yeah.
我认为在英国，由于你们没有言论自由法律，情况完全不同，所以出现了过度纠正。
Where people where there's an overcorrection, I think in The U UK, because you guys don't have free speech laws, because it's just different over there.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以做很多疯狂的事情而不受惩罚。
You can get away with a lot of crazy shit.
首先，我们得解释一下我们在说什么。
Like, first of all, like, we should explain what we're talking about.
在过去一年里，英国已有超过12,000人因社交媒体发帖而被逮捕。
More than 12,000 people have been arrested in The UK in the past year for social media posts.
如果你读一些那些社交媒体帖子，它们根本一点都不吓人。
And if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying.
我不是那种会拿刀去砍每一个我看到的移民的家伙，嘿，伙计。
It's not like I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see like, hey, buddy.
也许我们应该把这家伙关起来，评估一下他。
Maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him.
他听起来像个疯子。
He sounds like a crazy person.
不，不是这样的。
Like, no.
移民们正在涌入这个该死的国家，制造了所有的犯罪。
The immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime.
敲敲门。
Knock on the door.
是的。
Yeah.
你会进监狱的。
You're going to jail.
我担心美国人认为我们疯了。
I worry that Americans think we're mad.
有时候我觉得我们确实疯了。
Sometimes I think We do.
是的。
Yeah.
你这么认为吗？
Do you?
我们现在确实这么觉得。
We do now.
对。
Yeah.
我们认为你疯了。
We think you've lost it.
是的。
Yeah.
但我们同时也认为，你们的领导层正在故意试图搞垮你们的国家。
We but we also think something happened where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country.
看起来他们正试图引进尽可能多的移民，迎合他们而不是英国民众，并且公开这样做，没错。
It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible, cater to them, not to the British people, and do it openly Yeah.
这样所有人都知道他们在做什么，然后因此制造街头混乱。
So that everyone knows what they're doing, and then create chaos on the streets because of it.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，人们对此有个说法叫无政府暴政，你知道的，就是你惩罚那些没有违法的人。
I mean, people have a phrase for that an anarcho tyranny, you know, where you where you punish people who aren't breaking the law Yeah.
但却保护那些违法的人。
But you protect those who are.
而且我认为——我不确定美国人了解的程度——我是说你引用的那个数据来自伦敦的《泰晤士报》，他们通过信息自由请求向警方获取的信息，发现平均每年有12000起，相当于每天30起，不仅仅是接受调查或审查，而是直接被逮捕。
And I think with the I I don't know the extent that Americans know the I mean the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, had a freedom information request to the police, found out that it's 12,000 a year on average, so that's like 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into but being arrested.
但仅仅在过去几年里，如果你回溯一下，才只有大约一千或五百人。
But over the last few years only, if you go back, it's only like a thousand or 500.
以前是
It was
我们上次交谈时，也就是2020年，已经是三千人了。
3,000 last time we spoke, back in 2020.
真的是一年吗？
Was it really a year?
确实是。
It was.
那时候吗？
Back then?
是的。
Yeah.
天啊，所以我们当时就已经有这个问题了。
Oh my So we already had that problem.
我的意思是，我们当时根本不知道有那么多。
I mean, we already didn't know it was that many.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
就连那时候也是吗？
Even back then?
已经非常高了。
Was already really high.
我的意思是，以前就有类似的故事，比如2010年有个人在网上开玩笑说他正在英国唐卡斯特机场。
I mean, had stuff like the old stories of like there was that guy in 2010 who made a joke online about he was at Doncaster Airport in The UK.
他说：如果这个队伍再不快点，我就炸了机场。
He said, oh, if this queue doesn't hurry up, I'm gonna blow up the airport.
只是一条愚蠢又搞笑的推文。
Just a stupid funny tweet.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他最后还上了法庭。
He went all the way to court.
那是一场完整的审判。
That was a full trial.
还有这些法律，我觉得人们没有意识到这些在英国已经根深蒂固很久了。
Also these these laws and I think I think what happens with this stuff is people don't realize how long this has been embedded in The UK.
我们有多项立法中都规定了仇恨言论法。
We have hate speech laws that are encoded in a number of different legislations.
我们有一项叫做《公共秩序法》的法律。
We have a thing called the Public Order Act.
我们还有一项《恶意通讯法》。
We have a thing called Malicious Communications Act.
那是1988年制定的。
That's from 1988.
我们还有2003年的《通讯法》。
We have the Communications Act from 2003.
所有这些都把言论定为犯罪，我跟你说，我真的没骗你。
And all of these things criminalize I tell you, I I kid you not.
法律条文中的措辞是‘严重冒犯’。
The language in the statute books is if it's grossly offensive.
这就是那个词。
That's the phrase.
如果你发布的内容被认定为严重冒犯，你就会被送上法庭，遭到起诉。
If you post something that is grossly offensive, you can go to court, you can be prosecuted.
但你知道吗，我觉得这太主观了。
But, you know, I find So subjective.
好吧，就是这样。
Well, that's it.
这到底是什么意思？
What does that even mean?
我觉得那些限制言论自由的法律本身才是严重冒犯的。
I find laws against free speech to be grossly offensive.
对。
Right.
那么，英国政府应该被逮捕吗？
So should the the British state be arrested?
我不知道。
I don't know.
还有一条，我认为是在《恶意通信法》中，提到了‘无谓的焦虑’。
And there's one I think it's in the malicious communications communications act where it talks about needless anxiety.
制造无谓的焦虑可能会让你被逮捕。
Causing needless anxiety can get you arrested.
你觉得这根本不是一回事。
And you think you think that's not a thing.
我可以给你一个具体的例子，
I can give you a specific example of
就想抽支雪茄。
Just want cigars.
我有一次，我的朋友温斯顿·马歇尔，我担心如果我尝试的话会咳嗽，那样看起来会很懦弱和可怜。
I have once, my friend Winston Marshall, I think I worry that if I try it, I'll cough and I'll look really wimpish and and pathetic.
而且它会
And it'll And
对你的论点不利。
won't be good for your arguments.
适得其反。
It backfire.
它会破坏一切，我告诉你。
It will I tell you, it'll undermine everything.
那就好像我圣诞节戴着纸帽子坐在这里，破坏我所有的关键论点。
It'd be like I'm sitting here with a paper hat on at Christmas, undermining all of my key points.
对。
Right.
我喜欢那个味道，也喜欢和吸烟者待在一起，因为我祖母以前总在我旁边一根接一根地抽烟。
I I I like the flavor, and I like being around smokers because my grandmother used to chain smoke around me.
所以这有点，天哪。
So it's kind of Oh, boy.
嗯，她是北爱尔兰人。
Well, she's Northern Irish.
你知道吗？
You know?
我是说，他们就是那样的。
Mean, that's that's the way they do.
她在我三岁的时候会给我威士忌让我安静下来，你知道，
She used to give me whiskey when I was three to calm me down, you know,
所以那是
so it's
就是那种家庭。
that sort of family.
那是他们过去对孩子常用的老办法。
That's an old thing they used to do with kids.
以前会把
Used put
放进婴儿嘴里。
it in their babies.
他们会把酒涂在孩子的嘴里。
They'd put it in their mouth.
它
It
很有效。
worked.
比如他们会把手指蘸上威士忌，擦在孩子的口腔内侧。
Like they would dip their finger in whiskey and rub it on the inside of a kid's mouth.
如果你孩子闹得厉害，就把他灌醉。
If you're struggling with a child, get it drunk.
这就是老一辈北爱尔兰人的智慧。
That's how you it's old Northern Irish wisdom.
我不认为你应该嘲笑它。
I don't think you should scoff at it.
这是件好事。
It's a good thing.
但我远不止是高兴。
But I'll be more than That's happy to
极其令人反感。
grossly offensive.
这极其令人反感。
It's grossly offensive.
我本来想举的例子是这个叫达伦·布雷迪的人。
The example I was gonna give was this guy called Darren Brady.
这听起来像是编的，每当我告诉别人这件事，他们都觉得是编的。
This sounds made up, and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up.
他发了一个表情包。
He posted a meme.
我不知道你有没有看到那个关于四个进步骄傲旗的梗图。
I don't know if you saw this meme where it was the four progress pride flags.
你知道它上面有那些奇怪的三角形之类的东西吗？
You know that it's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it?
嗯，有看到。
Uh-huh.
你把它们全放在一起，就变成了万字符。
You put them all together and they become a swastika.
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
而且这个图到处都在传播。
And that was going everywhere.
他发了这个图。
And he posted it.
还有一段他被逮捕、戴上手铐的视频。
And there's a video of him being arrested, put in handcuffs.
顺便说一句，他是一名退伍军人。
He's an army veteran, by the way.
对吧？
Right?
视频中警察给他戴上手铐，并说：你引起了某人的焦虑。
Put in handcuffs by the police, and the policeman says in the video, you caused someone anxiety.
所以这项法律的实际条文正被用来进行这种重组，你知道吗？
So the the actual language from the law is being used for this rearrangement of the and you know what?
这是一个相当不错的讽刺观点，是的。
That's quite a good satirical point Yeah.
这是他提出的观点。
That he was making.
这甚至都不是他原创的表情包。
It wasn't even his meme.
他只是转推了一个表情包。
He was just retweeting a meme.
但即使那是个糟糕透顶的冒犯性内容，又有什么关系呢？
But even if it was some horrible offensive thing, who cares?
这有什么冒犯性的？
How is that offensive?
嗯，我想我的意思是，问题就在这里。
Well, I guess I mean, well, you can find that's the problem.
你可以觉得任何东西都冒犯。
You can find anything offensive.
如果你特别敏感，你甚至会觉得任何东西都极其冒犯。
You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive.
你可以这么说。
You could.
但那不正是重点所在吗？
And but wasn't there a point to that?
他的意思是，LGBTQIA+ 运动已经变得相当专制。
Mean, was kinda saying that the LGBTQIA plus movement has become quite authoritarian.
是的。
Yeah.
他并不是说他们真的是纳粹，而是说，有趣的是，当你把它们放在一起时，看起来像一个万字符？
He's not saying they're actual Nazis, and he's saying, oh, isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a it looks like a swastika?
居然因为这个就被铐起来。
The idea that you get handcuffed for that.
对。
Yeah.
尤其是因为一个转推。
Especially for a retweet.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
是转发的内容。
It's retweets.
是推文。
It's tweets.
是帖子。
It's posts.
表情包是重灾区。
We've had memes are the big ones.
有个叫李·约瑟夫·邓恩的人因此被判入狱八周。
So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn who went to prison for eight weeks.
那应该是去年的事，就因为他发了三个表情包。
That was last year, I think, for three memes that he posted.
八周。
Eight weeks.
八周的监禁。
Eight weeks in prison.
我再告诉你这三个表情包中最冒犯的是哪一个，然后你告诉我，你觉得这值不值得坐牢。
What the right so, again, I'll tell you what the most offensive of the three memes was, and you can tell me whether you think it was worth prison time.
他发了一张移民拿着刀的照片，下面写着‘即将来到你附近的城镇’，就这么简单。
He put a picture of some immigrants with knives, and underneath it said, coming to a town near you, and that was it.
所以我不确定你觉得这是否值得坐牢。
So I don't know if you think that's worth prison time.
这是最冒犯的一个吗？
That's the most offensive one?
在三个中，这个是最冒犯的。
Of the three, that's the most.
最不冒犯的是哪一个？
What's the least offensive one?
我不记得另外两个是什么了。
I can't remember what the other two were.
因为我记得我看过它们。
Because I remember I looked at them.
当时想，嗯，这甚至都不值得去考虑。
Thought, well, that's not even worth that's not even worth thinking about.
但这个才是真正的问题所在，因为在英国，他们说传播这种表情包是在煽动对少数群体的仇恨。
But this one was the one that really because because they say in England, you're stirring up hatred against minorities through the the spreading of the meme.
对。
Right.
你知道吗？
You know?
但这显然不够，你明白吗？
But that's clearly not sufficient, you know?
我...我认为在美国，你有更多的保护措施。
I I and I think in The US, you have you have far more protections.
我在想，这是否与美国有第一修正案有关。
I I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that in The US, you have the First Amendment.
你看，美国有明文规定，是的。
Like, you see, you have something codified Yeah.
它规定了你可以自由表达任何想法。
That says, you can say what you want.
我们从未有过这样的规定。
We've never had that.
这一点非常重要，而二十年前或三十年前人们并不觉得它重要，因为当时没人会认为英国会是那种会把人关起来的国家，当然，这都是社交媒体出现之前的事。
It's very important, and it didn't seem important twenty years ago or thirty years ago because no one ever looked at England as being that kind of a country that would just put people well, obviously, this was all pre social media.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
英国一直是一个相当有礼貌的社会。
And England has always been a a fairly polite society.
是的。
Yes.
但问题是，现在连酒吧里的闲聊都变成非法的了。
And and but the thing is, like, now pub talk has become illegal.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yeah.
比如，如果你在酒吧说了冒犯性的话，你可能会被逮捕，而且他们还在要求人们互相举报。
Like, if you say something offensive in a pub, you're subject to be arrested, and they're asking people to turn people in.
有一个叫做‘玩笑禁令’的东西，是工党政府试图推行的。
There's a thing called the banter ban, which the labor the labor government was trying to put in.
这就是玩笑禁令的逻辑。
Here's the logic of the banter ban.
我我我我忘了这个，但你一提我就想起来了。
I I I I forgot about this, but now you mentioned it.
他们想出台这项法律，比如，如果你在酒吧或酒馆工作，听到有人对你所属于的受保护特征发表不当言论，比如说你是同性恋酒吧服务员，有人却说‘我不喜欢同性恋’之类的话，而你恰好听到了。
They wanted to introduce this law so that, for instance, if you're working in a bar or a pub and you overhear someone who says something against your protected characteristic say you're a gay bar man and someone says, oh, I don't like the gays or something, and you overhear it.
你的雇主有责任保护你免受这种仇恨言论和伤害。
Your employer has a duty to protect you from that kind of hate speech, that kind of harm.
因此，酒吧内某些类型的言论将被全面禁止。
So therefore, there's gonna be a blanket ban on speech in on certain kinds of speech within the the pub.
对吧？
Right?
我认为，那个偷听的人才是问题所在。
I would say the guy who's eavesdropping, he's the problem.
对吧？
Right?
你不应该偷听别人的谈话。
You shouldn't be listening in on other people's conversations.
这确实是个现实问题。
So that's a real thing.
是的。
Yes.
我想这一切都归结于这种我认为完全错误的观点：言语和暴力是等同的，言语会造就一个更暴力的社会，人们所说的话与他们在网络上的言论，和他们在现实世界中的行为之间存在直接的因果关系。
And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world.
我认为你们的观点是正确的，因为你们有布兰登堡测试。
And I think you guys have got it right because you've got the Brandenburg test.
你们知道美国关于煽动暴力的这个测试吗？
Do know about the the the test incitement to violence in The US?
不知道。
No.
那是什么？
What is that?
这基本上是一个在六十年代左右确立的测试。
It's it's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the sixties.
当时是一名名叫克拉伦斯·布兰登堡的三K党领袖，因煽动暴力而被起诉。
It was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg who was prosecuted for incitement to violence.
该测试自那个先例确立以来，标准是任何言论若要被判定为煽动暴力，必须具有引发暴力的意图，很可能导致暴力，且暴力必须迫在眉睫。
And the test was it that was established since that precedent was that any words that can be convicted for incitement to violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent.
如果你满足了这些门槛条件，在美国就可能因煽动暴力而被起诉。
And if you satisfy those that that threshold, you can be prosecuted in The US for incitement to violence.
就好比想象一个煽动者被粉丝包围，激起狂热情绪，然后指着前排的一个人说‘现在就杀了他’。
So it'd be like kind of imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans whipping up a frenzy then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying kill him now.
这种情况就符合布兰登伯格测试的标准。
That would qualify for the Brandenburg test.
但在英国，因为我们没有那个标准，我们只能看人们是否觉得它冒犯。
But in The UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive.
这就是门槛的差异。
That's the difference of the threshold.
所以美国的标准和英国的标准之间存在巨大差异。
So it's a massive difference between what The US has and what The UK has.
巨大的差异。
Massive.
这太疯狂了。
It's insane.
我是说，举一个最近最明显的例子，因为我不确定大家是否知道这件事，英国有个叫露西·康诺利的女人。
I mean, to give the most obvious recent example, because I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in The UK.
我不知道这件事在美国这边有没有报道过。
I don't know if this was reported over here at all.
你还记得去年夏天我们发生的那些骚乱吗？当时有人反对收容寻求庇护者的酒店，还纵火烧了它们。
Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when against hotels which were housing asylum seekers, and people were setting fire to them?
当时那些骚乱中确实存在真正的种族主义行为，对吧？
There were genuinely racist stuff going on, right, during those riots.
而这起事件的背景是一个家伙在舞蹈课上谋杀了一群小女孩。
And this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class.
当时有传言说这个人是一名寻求庇护者。
And there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker.
对吧？
Right?
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而这位女性，一位失去了女儿的母亲，对露西·康诺利这件事非常敏感，对失去孩子的想法也非常敏感。
And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of Lucy Connolly, very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids.
她在愤怒中发推说，去把所有酒店都烧了吧，我才不在乎。
She tweeted in a fit of anger, go and burn down all the hotels for all I care.
如果这让我成为种族主义者，那就这样吧。
If that makes me racist, so be it.
把政府也一起带走。
And take the government with you.
类似这样的事情。
Something like that.
她在几个小时内就删掉了它。
And she deleted it within a couple of hours.
她出门遛狗时删掉了它，然后心想，我真的不是那样的人。
She went out, walked her dog, she deleted it, and she thought, I really that's not me.
那不是真正的我。
That's not who I am.
删掉了。
Deleted it.
警察来了，上了法庭，就因为这条迅速删除的推文，她被判了31个月监禁，实际服刑超过一年。
Police came, went to court, sentenced to thirty one months in prison for that delete swiftly deleted tweet, and she served over a year.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我不是说那条推文很好。
Now I'm not saying the tweet was nice.
对吧？
Right?
那条推文非常恶劣，她自己也说那是一条恶劣的推文。
The tweet was a horrible tweet, and she says it was a horrible tweet.
这就是她删除它的原因。
That's why she deleted it.
但我们没有布兰登堡测试，没有对煽动暴力的界定标准。
But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, don't have a test for incitement to violence.
关键是那条推文，她根本不可能是有影响力的人。
Because the key is that tweet, there was no way it could have she wasn't someone with influence.
她没有多少粉丝。
She didn't have many followers.
没人会看到那条推文并去付诸行动。
No one was going to read that and go and act upon it.
即使有人这么做了，那也是他们自己的责任。
And if they did, that would be on them.
对吧？
Right?
因为是的。
Because Yeah.
这是一种谬论。
This is a myth.
这种谬论认为人们会根据网上看到的内容立即行动。
This myth that people act on cue to what they read online.
嗯，它
Well, it
它确实会影响人们。
it influences people for sure.
但问题是，你在多大程度上需要对自己的思想和行为拥有自主权？
But it it what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我认为它确实会加剧紧张局势，尤其是当政治领袖这么做的时候。
Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it.
对。
Right.
但是政治——但我的观点是，它不会煽动你去实施暴力。
But when political but my point is, like, it's not gonna incite you to violence.
它也不会煽动我去实施暴力。
It's not going to incite me to violence.
那我们是在讨论谁呢？
So who are we talking about?
这其中的一部分问题是，他们似乎在保护社会中最愚昧的成员。
What this is part of the thing is like they're protecting the dumbest members of society.
这就好比禁止网络上的疯狂言论。
This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online.
如果你在谈论女巫，或者随便什么，比如地平说。
If you're talking about witches or, you know, whatever it is, flat earth.
比如，我们必须制止错误信息。
Like, we have to stop misinformation.
从谁那里？
From from who?
这对你不起作用。
It's not working on you.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
你
You
不相信这一点。
don't believe it.
那么我们到底在保护谁？
So who are we protecting?
我们在保护最愚蠢的人吗？
We're protecting the dumbest people?
而且，你这不是在为他们开脱吗？
Also, aren't you kind of letting them off?
比如，如果有人去实施暴力行为，却说：‘哦，是别人让我这么做的’，你这不是在为他们开脱责任吗？
Like, if if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, oh, I did it because someone told me to do it, aren't you kind of letting them off the hook?
对。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
而且还在转移责任。
And and sort of displacing the blame.
就像那个射杀约翰·列侬的人，他说《麦田里的守望者》让他这么做的。
You know, it's like that guy who shot John Lennon, who said Catcher in the Rye made him do it.
读了那本《麦田里的守望者》。
Reading the book Catcher.
我们现在是在怪J.D.塞林格吗？
Are we now blaming JD Salinger Right.
为约翰·列侬的谋杀案负责？
For the murder of John Lennon?
是约翰·列侬吧？
Was It John Lennon, wasn't it?
我想他是的。
Think he Yes.
所以我认为最稳妥的做法是说，人们要为自己的行为负责。
So do you I think the safest approach is to say people are responsible for their own actions.
我认为你最好说的是，当政治领袖和有影响力的人说出这样的话时，他们实际上是在暗示，出去实施暴力是可以接受的。
I think the best that you could say is when political leaders and people with clout say things like that, they sort of and say, you know, it's fine to go out and commit violence.
我认为他们的做法是营造了一种批准的象征。
I think what they do is they create a kind of imprimatur of approval.
他们制造了一种感觉，让你觉得如果你这么做了，掌权者会支持你。
They create this kind of sense that if you do it, the people in charge will have your back.
如果你这么做了，那就没问题。
If you do it, it's okay.
嗯，这正是关于1月6日特朗普的争论点。
Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6.
这就是为什么BBC剪辑了他的演讲，让他看起来像是在表达这个意思。
And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.
你看到那个片段了吗？
Do you see you saw that clip.
对吧？
Right?
我的天啊。
Oh my god.
这简直太疯狂了。
It's fucking crazy.
我的意思是，我早就说过BBC确实存在一种...为BBC辩护的话，他们一向在党派政治上保持中立这方面做得还不错。
I I mean, I've been saying for a long time the BBC has a real like, what I will say in the BBC's defense is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral.
比如，他们会以一种相当中立的方式质询右翼和左翼的人士。
Like, they will interrogate someone in the the right and someone in the left in a pretty neutral way.
我认为他们做得相当不错——我知道这么说会有人不高兴，但我确实这么认为。
They don't I think they do pretty good I know people would be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do.
但在意识形态方面，特别是觉醒意识形态，他们被裹挟了。
But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured.
BBC内部曾有一个叫LGBT事务部的机构（直到最近才撤销），它可以否决任何新闻报道，这意味着任何对跨性别活动略有批评的新闻都不会被报道。
They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of trans activism or or anything like that just didn't get reported.
所以我对BBC感到并不意外
So I'm not surprised that the BBC
他们给了他们否决权？
They gave them veto power?
他们确实给了他们否决权。
They gave them veto power.
是的。
Yeah.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
这一切都出自一份报告，是几个月前刚公布的，直接导致了总干事蒂姆·戴维的辞职，他表面上是因为那个特朗普片段而辞职，但顺便说一句，这并不是他们第一次这么干。
This all came out in a report, quite a recent report just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim David, the director general, and he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which, by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it.
一年前，在另一个节目里，就发生过类似的片段。
There there was another clip about a year a year before in a different program that did the same thing.
他们截取了那段视频，重新剪辑，让他看起来说了根本没说过的话。
Took the clip, reedited it, and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said.
所以我认为BBC显然存在意识形态偏见，即便不是党派政治偏见。
So I think the the BBC quite obviously has an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.
但这不仅仅是偏见。
But that's more than a bias.
而是误导性的。
But it's misleading.
对吧？
Right?
这完全是欺骗行为。
It's it's It's completely deceptive.
你是在编辑内容，我的意思是，他们删掉了他演讲中的一大段。
You're you're editing something and chain I mean, you they took out a giant chunk of his speech.
是的。
Yeah.
本期节目由1800flowers.com赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by 1800flowers.com.
情人节快到了。
Valentine's Day is coming up.
它总是悄然而至。
It always sneaks up on people.
如果你想在今年轻松地大获成功，就选这个吧。
If you want an easy way to absolutely crush it this year, this is it.
一月玫瑰。
January Roses.
它们更大，而且更持久。
They're bigger and actually last.
此外，他们还提供七天新鲜保证，让你放心送出最好的礼物。
Plus, they back it with a seven day freshness guarantee so you can feel confident that you're sending the best.
这是优惠活动。
Here's the deal.
现在，他们正在推出双倍花束优惠。
Right now, they've got this double blooms offer.
你买一打玫瑰，他们免费给你加倍到两打。
You buy one dozen roses, they double it to two dozen for free.
没有附加条件。
No catch.
同样的价格，效果却更震撼。
Same price, way bigger statement.
他们还提供全国范围内的当日送达服务。
They also do same day delivery nationwide.
所以即使你拖得有点久，也完全没问题。
So even if you waited longer than you should have, you're still good.
这是那种难得的情况，做一件大事其实很容易。
This is one of those rare situations where doing something big is actually easy.
访问 1800flowers.com/rogan 获取双倍花束优惠。
Go to 1800flowers.com/rogan to get the double blooms offer.
购买一打玫瑰，他们免费给你加送一打，变成两打。
Buy one dozen, they double it to two dozen roses free.
那就是 1800flowers.com/rogan。
That's 1800flowers.com/rogan.
我忘了具体是多少分钟。
I forget how many minutes it was.
他们跳了大约四十五分钟之类的。
They leapt, like, forty five minutes or something.
他说了些疯狂的话。
Like, so he said Something crazy
就是这样。
like that.
是的。
Yeah.
他说这让他看起来像是在说‘去’
He said it made him look like he was saying go
没错。
and Exactly.
把‘Exactly’记下来。
Commit the Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
而他却是以一种调侃的语气，谈论那位非常优秀的参议员，说参议员和国会议员们干得不错，对吧。
And instead, he he was in tongue in cheek talking about the very fine senator that they're doing a great job, the senators and congresspeople Yeah.
说了其他一大堆话。
Said all this other stuff.
说你必须拼尽全力才能保住自己的国家，这真是太奇怪了。
It's so weird that said you have to fight like hell to keep your country.
我的意思是，不是有意冒犯，但你很容易就能找到特朗普说的那些荒唐话。
I mean, no offense, but you can find daft stuff that Trump says pretty easily.
对吧？
Right?
你不需要把那些内容删减掉。
You don't you don't you don't need to edit that stuff down.
这是因为他们有机会像我们之前说的那样塑造叙事，我们在节目开始前就聊过，你可以放出一个说法。
Well, it's because they had an opportunity to like like what we're saying before earlier, we were talking before the show, you can put out a narrative.
是的。
Yeah.
而且它不必是真实的，但人们会记住这个说法。
And it doesn't have to be true, and then that's the one that sticks.
于是这个说法就会广泛传播。
So that's the one that spreads wide.
等过了这么多年，他们不得不进行审判，大家才发现这并不真实，但伤害已经造成了。
And then when all these years later, they have to have this, you know, trial and everybody finds out it's not true, But the damage is done.
我的意思是，他们在整个斯蒂尔备忘录事件中对特朗普就是这么做的。
I mean, that's what they did with Trump during the whole Steele dossier.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的，那些妓女和往人身上撒尿，还有所有那些疯狂的事。
You know, the the hookers and peeing on people and, you know, all that crazy shit.
你还记得吗？
Remember that?
我记得那个说法，说他雇了妓女在奥巴马曾经睡过的床上撒尿。
I remember the idea that he'd hired hookers to urinate on the bed that was once occupied by the Obamas.
差不多就是这样。
Something along Right.
那些现在，
Those Now,
我不相信这个的原因是我认为特朗普没那么前卫。
the reason I didn't believe that is I don't think Trump is that avant garde.
我认为他没那么有创意。
I don't think he's that creative.
如果真是他想出来的，我反而会为他鼓掌。
Like if he'd have come up with that, I would have been actually applauding that.
这有点惊人。
That's kind of amazing.
但显然他没有——这根本不可能。
But obviously he didn't That's do
根本不值得称赞。
not even something to applaud.
这听起来简直荒谬至极。
That just sounds like work of It's ridiculous.
对。
Right.
通过卖淫的方式让尿液弄到敌人的床上。
Get urination on the bed of your enemy through the medium of prostitution.
我觉得这倒是一种很有艺术感的做法。
I think that's kind of an artistic thing to do.
但我认为他没这么做。
But I don't think he did it.
显然他没有那么做。
I don't obviously, he didn't do it.
这些都不是真的。
None of it's true.
对。
Right.
但你想想，这难道不奇怪吗？我觉得没人会真的相信这种事。
But you put that but isn't that weird that that in that's like something I don't think anyone seriously could believe.
嗯，有很多人相信了这件事。
Well, there's plenty of people that believed it.
而且他们并不——是的。
And they don't yeah.
他们不必相信它。
They don't have to believe it.
他们只是说说而已。
They just say it.
这正是整个审判的关键所在，你知道的，他被逮捕并被判定犯有34项重罪，但实际上没有一项是真正的重罪。
Like, that was the whole point about, you know, the trial where he got arrested and con or and convicted of 34 counts that are felony, none of which are actually a felony.
这全是记账问题，是的。
That's all bookkeeping Yeah.
欺骗。
Deception.
那就是支付给那个女孩的钱。
It's that was the paying off of the girl.
是的。
Yes.
所以现在你可以称他为有罪的重罪犯。
So now you can say he's a convicted felon.
你就可以这么说。
You can just say that.
尽管所有这些指控都是轻罪，而且全都过了追诉时效。
And even though all those counts were misdemeanors, all of them had passed the statute of limitations.
是的。
Yeah.
但出于某种原因，通过任何法律专家都无法真正诚实解释的方式，他们决定将其定性为重罪，目的就是为了把他变成重罪犯。
But for some reason, through no legal way that anybody could ever really honestly explain, they decided to label it a felony, and it was just to turn him into a felon.
我看到连左派的反特朗普律师都说法律不该这样运作。
I saw the I saw even left leaning anti Trump lawyers saying this is not how the law should work.
确实不该。
No.
你不能人为地将已过诉讼时效的轻罪升级为重罪。
You can't artificially elevate a misdemeanor to a felony outside the statute of limitations.
太疯狂了。
Crazy.
问题是，如果你这么做，他们也会对你这么做的。
Thing is, if you do that, they're gonna do that to you.
是的。
Yeah.
这就好比我们要把那种权力交给共和党人，现在他们上台了，难道他们也会开始做类似的事情吗？
It's like we're gonna give that kind of power to the Republicans, and now when they're in office, they're gonna start doing things like that?
我们疯了吗？
Are we crazy?
嗯，还有，这件事真的让我很困扰。
Well, also, this really bothers me.
就像，我认为过去几年发生的一个关键问题是双方都完全缺乏对真相的忠诚。
Like, one of the key things that I think has happened over the past few years is this complete lack of fealty to the truth from both sides.
对。
Right.
现在最重要的是什么方便就用什么。
It's whatever is convenient matters more.
完全缺乏求知欲，完全缺乏调查、审视和彻底核查。
A complete lack of intellectual curiosity, a complete lack of of of investigating and looking and and thoroughly checking.
顺便说一句，这对BBC来说非常重要，因为与这里可以随心所欲偏袒一方的新闻媒体不同，BBC是国家广播公司。
And by the way, with the BBC, that really matters because unlike the the the news media here, which can be as partisan as it likes, the BBC is the state broadcaster.
根据宪章，它有责任保持平衡、公正，但它完全失败了。
It's got a responsibility by charter to not be to, you know, to be balanced, to be even handed, and it completely failed.
我今天早上看到，你知道，现在大家都在疯狂关注爱泼斯坦的文件。
And I saw today, just this morning, some people you know, we've got all the mania about the Epstein files at the moment.
一些活动人士现在声称，JK·罗琳曾邀请爱泼斯坦参加她戏剧的首演。
Some activists have now said, JK Rowling once invited Epstein to the opening of her theater her play.
根本没这回事。
Never happened.
但由于现在爱泼斯坦事件闹得沸沸扬扬，他们就直接说事情发生了。
But because there's a furore about Epstein at the moment, they're just saying it happened.
消息会到处传播开来。
It gets spread all over the place.
你只需要这么做就行了。
That's all you have to do.
而你只需要
And that's all you
必须做的事。
have to do.
然后水坝就……然后这事就被传开了。
And then then the dam and then that gets repeated.
哦，这事难道没发生过吗？
Oh, didn't this happen?
我知道。
I know.
就像你说的关于特朗普的事情，没错，我总是听到他是个已定罪的重罪犯。
Like, what you say about Trump is, right, I always hear that he's a convicted felon.
他是个已定罪的重罪犯。
He's a convicted felon.
那你为什么不暂停一下，评估一下这个定罪是否合理，是否出于政治动机，或者这有多大帮助呢？
Well, why don't you pause for a minute and assess whether or not that conviction is sound or whether it was politically motivated or how helpful that is?
但就像你说的
But like you say
而且，这简直是个极其危险的先例。
Also, it's like, it's such a dangerous precedent to send.
太糟糕了。
It's terrible.
比如，如果你这么看的话。
Like, if you do that look.
不过，目前在美国，媒体普遍偏向左翼，除了福克斯新闻之外的主流大型媒体。
Right now in The United States, though, the media predominantly leans left except for Fox News, the mainstream large scale media.
我想CBS现在可能更偏向右翼了。
I guess CBS is probably going to lean more right now.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
看起来它似乎正在朝那个方向发展。
It seems like it's in the process of that.
但总的来说，当你看CNN、MSNBC或主流新闻时，它们都非常偏向左翼。
But for the most part, when you watch CNN, if you watch MSNBC, if you watch the mainstream news, it's very left leaning.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果右翼人士开始这样做——如果新闻普遍偏向右翼，然后他们对左翼候选人也采取同样的做法，那会怎样？
But if the fucking if right wing people started if if it was, like, more common for the news to be right leaning, and then they started doing the exact same thing about a left leaning candidate Yeah.
这太危险了。
This is so dangerous.
而那些一直支持言论自由的左翼人士，竟然不认识到这一点？
And the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech?
直到现在，支持言论自由从来都不是右翼的立场。
It's never been a right wing thing to support free speech until now.
是的。
Yeah.
这一直都是左翼的立场。
It's always been a left wing thing.
我小时候，ADL为纳粹分子抗议的权利辩护，这广为人知，他们说：看。
When I was a kid, it was famously the case of the ADL defending Nazis having the right to protest and saying, look.
我们认为他们所说的内容令人憎恶，但你有权利表达任何你内心的想法，这非常重要。
We we we think what they're saying is abhorrent, but it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel.
而应对这种言论的方法，是用更出色、更简洁、更合乎逻辑且有说服力的言论来回应。
And then the way to combat that is with much better, more concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是你要做的。
And this is what you do.
辩论的意义就在于此。
This is what debate is for.
我们一直都知道这一点。
This is this is we we've always known this.
是的。
Yeah.
但是，我的意思是，我同意。
But, I mean, I I agree.
你指出的这一点让我非常沮丧，左派过去确实是这样的。
I'm so dispirited by that that very thing that you've identified that the left used to be about this.
左派过去一直主张——你提到的那个例子是斯科基吧，在芝加哥，纳粹分子游行穿过斯科基，而美国公民自由联盟表示他们在为此辩护。
The left used to be all about mean, I that example you mentioned of Skokie, wasn't it, in Chicago, the Nazis marching through Skokie and the ACLU saying, you know, we're defending this.
有一位名叫艾亚·尼亚的人写过一本书，他是美国公民自由联盟的负责人，书名叫《为迈阿密辩护》。
There was a book by a guy called Aya Nea, who was the head of the ACLU called Defending Miami.
是的。
Yeah.
不是ADL。
Wasn't the ADL.
是ACLU。
It was the ACLU.
是ACLU，他说，要知道，他是犹太人，他有家人在大屠杀中丧生，但他正在写一本书说，我捍卫新纳粹言论自由的权利，不是因为支持他们，而是因为我不支持。
It was the ACLU, and he was saying, know, he's Jewish, he's got family members who died in the Holocaust, but he's writing a book saying, I'm defending neo Nazis' right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't.
而我想捍卫这个原则，通过它我能够应对他们，那就是言论自由。
And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them, and that's speech.
没错。
Right.
所以换句话说，这个原则要宏大得多。
So the the in other words, the the principle is so much bigger.
我的意思是，我认为现在已经丧失的东西，顺便说一句，美国公民自由联盟已经完全转向了。
I mean, the thing that I think has been lost and now, by the way, the ACLU, complete about turn.
我是说，有一位ACLU的律师发推说他想禁止阿比盖尔·施里尔的书，他还说，这是我愿意为之奋斗到底的事情。
I mean, there was a a lawyer for the ACLU tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Shrier's book banned, and he said, this is the hill I will die on.
你知道，那个人叫蔡斯还是什么，我想是一个叫蔡斯的跨性别活动家。
You know, that's a guy called Chase or was it a guy I think it's a trans activist called Chase something.
我不记得了。
I can't remember.
总之，但但关键是，你们堕落到了什么地步？
Anyway, but but the point is, how far have you fallen?
在这些言论自由问题上，无论左右，都与此无关。
When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it.
关键在于，你不该因为是否同意对方所说的内容而决定立场，而应坚持维护这一原则本身。
It should be about this principle of it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying, it's whether you want the principle intact.
这一原则适用于我们所有人。
And that principle applies to us all.
正是同一项原则，允许纳粹发表他们那些疯狂的言论，也让我们能够挑战和应对这些言论。
The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to to to challenge it, to to to tackle it.
这只是一个短期的胜利。
Well, it's it's a very short term win.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
本质上，他们在下棋，他们决定，不管怎样，我都要那个车。
Basically, they're playing chess, and they decided, I want that rook no matter what.
然后他们就牺牲了皇后。
And then they just sacrificed their queen.
看看你干了些什么。
Like, look what you've done.
看看你为了这个短期胜利做了什么。
Look what you've done for this short term victory.
你本质上是在毁掉文明长达十年，我们需要在这段时间里解决这个问题，让这艘船来回漂荡，直到它自行稳定。
You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade where we have to sort this out and, like, let the ship wash itself back and forth until it writes.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，你该如何确保这种事情不会发生在你身上？
So how how and how do you ensure that it's not gonna happen to you?
想想看。
Like, think about that.
大约一年半前，布鲁塞尔举办了一次国家保守派会议。
There was a national conservative conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago.
当地市长说，我不喜欢这个，于是他让警察冲进去，把它关停了。
The local mayor said, I don't like this, and he had the police rush it, shut it down.
你还有像奈杰尔·法拉奇、索哈拉·布拉瓦曼这样的主流右翼人物。
And you had mainstream right wing figures like Nigel Farage, Sohala Braavaman.
他们怎么会不觉得，等一下。
How do they not think, hang on a minute.
如果我们确立了可以仅仅通过警力来关停政治对手的先例，这怎么会不反过来影响到我呢？
If we establish that precedent where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me?
这种情况怎么会不发生在我们身上呢？
How will that not happen to us?
嗯，这正是他们现在用来支持特朗普追查政治对手的论点。
Well, it's just the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents.
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
因为他们打开了那个潘多拉魔盒。
Because they opened that Pandora's box.
对吧？
Right?
你们对他就是这么做的。
You guys did that with him.
是的。
Yeah.
你们你们还有所有人都在说这有多危险。
You're you're and everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is.
是的。
Yeah.
你他妈不能那么做。
You can't fucking do that.
即使你讨厌那个人，如果，比如，如果有确凿的罪行可以抓人，但当你拿簿记这种事当罪名时 是的。
Even if you hate the guy, if, like, if there's a real crime that you can get someone, but when you take a crime like the bookkeeping stuff Yeah.
把一件最终被证明是合法的行为，变成一项足以让这个人终身监禁的重罪，你却可以花钱让人闭嘴。
And turn it into a felony that could put this man in jail for the rest of his life for doing something that turns out to be legal, you can pay people to shut up.
是的。
Yeah.
为了这种短期利益，人们竟然愿意这么做，这真是太奇怪了。
And this is so it's just it's so weird that people for this short term gain Yeah.
他们愿意摧毁我们文明赖以存在、保障自由表达的唯一核心结构。
Are willing to tank, which is essentially the sole structure of our civilization that allows free discourse.
你需要它。
You need it.
它极其重要。
It's so important.
能够自由交流和表达，是如此重要。
So important to be able to communicate and talk.
如果没有播客，人们就只能通过主流新闻来传递思想。
If podcasts didn't exist, there was no way to talk through ideas other than mainstream news.
我们可能还困在九十年代或八十年代那种对世界运作方式的非常怪异的叙事中。
We would still be stuck in some very bizarre nineteen nineties or nineteen eighties narrative about how the world works.
是的。
Yeah.
我们会遇到真正的问题。
We would have real problems.
如果没有像推特或其他平台上那样的独立新闻业，我们确实会遇到真正的问题。
We'd have real problems if there wasn't independent journalism, like, on Twitter and on wherever they can post.
是的。
Yeah.
那他们为什么不明白呢？
So why don't they get it?
我的意思是，我们甚至看到英国左倾报纸上有人呼吁逮捕埃隆·马斯克，就因为他允许在X（或推特，随便你怎么称呼）上自由发言。
I mean, we've had, like, people in left leaning papers in The UK calling for Elon Musk to be arrested because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter or whatever you wanna call it.
就像，这到底——
Like, what Well,
他们的办公室今天被搜查了，是吗？
their offices got raided today in Did it?
某个国家。
Some country.
有一个国家，X的办公室被搜查了。
There was a country where X's offices got raided.
我想其中一件事是，他们 somehow 又涉及了儿童色情内容，我记得是这样。
I think one of the things was they somehow another let there were I think something had to do with child pornography.
那是在哪里？
Where was that?
法国。
France.
法国。
France.
对Grok的调查。
Investigation into grok.
那是什么？
And what is it?
什么是
What are the
哦，所以你知道这是怎么回事？
Oh, so you know what this is all about?
是的。
Yeah.
涉嫌罪行包括非法数据提取和协助持有儿童色情内容。
Suspected offenses including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography.
是的。
Yeah.
但那不是
But that's not what
这件事的重点。
this is about.
这是因为有人滥用Grok，比如给她们喜欢的女性穿上比基尼，甚至在一些极其恶劣的情况下生成儿童性内容。
This is because people have been misusing grok to, like, put bikinis on women they like or even in a few horrible cases creating child child sex
等等，你不能这么做。
You can do wait a minute.
你不能制造儿童色情内容。
You can't create child pornography
在Grok上不行。
on grok.
不行。
No.
或者至少我认为这方面已经被严格禁止和防护了。
Or or at least I think that's very much been shut down and safeguarded.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得情况就是这样。
I think that's what's happened.
我的意思是，除非有什么漏洞，让你能让它这么做。
I mean, unless there's, like, some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it.
在潜在的犯罪行为中，它提到将调查涉及共谋、持有或有组织传播儿童色情图像，以及利用深度伪造技术侵犯他人形象权的行为。
Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate where complicity and possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature, infringement of people's image rights with sexual deepfakes.
好的。
Okay.
性深伪技术。
The sexual deepfakes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以性深伪就是比如把希拉里·克林顿P成穿比基尼的样子，还让她变得很性感，这就是性深伪。
So sexual deepfakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton in a bikini and made her hot, that's a sexual deepfake.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
有组织团体的欺诈性数据提取。
Fraudulent data extraction by an organized group.
我认为你仍然可以做其中一些事情。
I think you can still do some of that stuff.
你可以把人们放进比基尼里。
You can put people in bikinis.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为你可以做到。
I think you can do that.
所以，比如，如果你想给沙奎尔·奥尼尔穿上比基尼，你可以说你是在对他进行性化处理。
So, like, if you wanted to take Shaquille O'Neal and put him in a bikini, you could say you're sexualizing him.
好的。
Okay.
我...是的。
I I yeah.
我的意思是，我想你可以这么做。
I mean, I guess you can do that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么，你知道，最近英国首相基尔·斯塔默表示他正在考虑是否要禁止X，虽然不一定真要禁止，但也没排除这个可能性。
So but that's what so that'll be why, you know, recently, Keir Stahmer, Prime Minister of UK, said he wanted was considering or not necessarily he was gonna ban x, but it wasn't off the table.
大概就是说他好像打算这么做。
It's something like he as though he's gonna do that.
但这总是借口。
But this is always the excuse.
就像是的。
Like Yeah.
我们在保护儿童。
We're protecting children.
没错。
Right.
而且你看，没人想要这种东西。
And and look, no one wants that sort of stuff.
对吧？
Right?
当然，没人希望孩子遭受严重的侵害。
No one wants deep acts of kids, obviously.
但事实上，从相关数据来看，Snapchat 上儿童性剥削的情况要严重得多。
But there's far I mean, looking at the stats on that, there's far more child sexual sexual exploitation on Snapchat, for instance.
但他们并不针对 Snapchat，因为 Snapchat 并不是凯尔·斯塔默每天都被人们严厉质疑、逐条核查事实的地方。
But they don't go after Snapchat because Snapchat isn't the form where Keir Starmer is getting criticized every single day and brutally hauled over the coals by by people checking his facts.
X 最近最棒的一点就是社区笔记功能。
One of the best things about X recently is the community notes.
它能实时用事实核查记者和政客，他们对此恨之入骨。
Check it checking journalists and politicians in real time with facts, they hate it.
他们就是讨厌这个。
They hate that.
所以难怪他们会针对X。
So no wonder they're going after X.
对。
Yeah.
拜登多次被社区笔记揭穿。
Biden got cooked by community notes multiple times.
是的。
Yeah.
就是政府删除帖子的那部分。
To the
行政当局删除帖子的那部分。
part where the administration was taking down posts.
是的。
Yeah.
就连左倾报纸《卫报》也是如此。
So did the The Guardian, the left leaning newspaper.
它发表了一份重大声明后愤然离开X平台，说我们要去蓝天了。
It flounced off x with a big statement saying, we're going to blue sky.
我们受够了。
We've had it.
我们要去蓝天了。
We're off to blue sky.
那真是愤然离去的样子。
It was such a flounce.
当然，然后所有人都在转发他们的社区注释。
And of course and then, of course, everyone was retweeting all the their community notes.
他们有很多这样的注释。
They had loads of them.
当然。
Of course.
简直多到数不清
Just absolutely loads
他们也是。
of them too.
没错。
True.
而且，你知道的，尤其是当它向全世界开放的时候，是的。
And, you know, especially when it's open to the whole world Yeah.
而那些不受你规则约束的人，比如在美国，我们就可以随便说。
And people that aren't stuck under your guidelines, like in America, we could just talk shit.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为它出现在法国的原因很可能与
And I think the reason why it's in France probably has a lot to do with
坎迪斯·欧文斯有关。
Candace Owens.
哦，对。
Oh, yes.
这完全说得通。
That makes complete sense.
是的。
Yeah.
可能是马克龙，还有就是，是的。
Might be Macron and, like Yeah.
我的意思是，这个被分享了多少次？
I mean, how many times did that get shared?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我的意思是，这真是
I mean, that is
现在就说得通了。
That makes sense of it now.
顺便说一下，有个很快的方法可以解决这个问题。
By the way, there's a real quick way to solve that.
打开染色体测试。
Open chromosome test.
继续说吧，可能会比那更直白一些。
Go ahead and gonna be bit more graphic than that.
但我没必要这么做。
But I don't have to.
不。
No.
你不
You don't
需要。
have to.
因为那并不能真正解决问题，除非——我是说，虽然没有手术这回事，但如果她做过手术，那么你知道，你可以展示一张照片，而且可能相当逼真，尤其是有多久没见过70岁老太太的私处了？
Because that doesn't really solve it because you could if unless, I mean, there's no operation, but if she's gone through a surgery, then, you know, you could show a picture, and it's probably pretty realistic, especially when's the last time you saw a 70 year old lady's cooter?
上周。
Last week.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
恭喜。
Congratulations.
我只是对这类事情感兴趣。
I'm just interested in sort of stuff.
你知道的，你有权利好奇，是的。
Well, you know, you're allowed to be curious Yeah.
在这个国家。
In this country.
但这其实是个非常好的例子，说明了明显不真实的东西竟然能在瞬间传遍全球。
That's actually a really good example though, isn't it, of the just something so obviously not true just going all over the world, like like, in a in a matter of moments.
但那不是真的吗？
Is it not true though?
马克龙的妻子是个男人。
Well, the Macron's wife is a man.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那不是真的。
That's not true.
百分之百吗？
A 100%?
你知道的，声称这是真的的人才需要承担举证责任。
Well, you know, the burden of proof is on those who want to say that it is true.
这个故事的真相本身就够离奇了，不需要是真的。
The reality of the story is weird enough without it being true.
比如，那个40岁的男人，他不是她的学校老师吗？
Like, the 40 year old man and the He was wasn't she his his school teacher?
40岁。
40.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
如果她确实是女性的话，当时她40岁。
She was 40 if it was if if it is actually a woman.
她40岁，而他15岁。
She was 40 and he was 15.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
然后大家都说，嗯，他们是法国人。
And everyone says, well, they're French.
这似乎是...这似乎是关键所在。
That's that seems to be the that seems to be the thing.
真是个疯狂的国家。
What a wild country.
人们就是会说，在法国就是这样运作的。
That that's that's people just say that's the way it works in France.
是的。
Yep.
但我还是要说，对于所有这些事情，你需要某种证据。
But I again, look, I would say, with all of this stuff, you need some sort of proof.
你需要一些确凿的证据。
You need some like Right.
当你...这难道不是卡尔·萨根说的吗？非凡的主张需要非凡的证据。
When you when you wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?
我认为这是一个相当稳妥的说法。
I think that's a pretty safe dictator.
这个观点是，好吧，任何事情都可能是真的。
The idea that, okay, anything could be true.
你知道吗？
Know?
或者你知道，有些疯狂阴谋论最后被证明是真的。
Or you know, there have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true.
所以我不会，我绝不会排除任何可能性。
So I'm not I would never rule anything out.
但我要说的是，如果你要提出这样的主张，你最好有十足的把握，有非常确凿的证据证明她掌握了
But what I'm saying is if you're gonna make a claim like that, you better be damn sure you've got really solid evidence about She's got
关于这个有长达数小时的纪录片。
hours long documentaries on this.
是的。
Yeah.
那它们有说服力吗？
And are they are they persuasive?
我没有全部看完。
I haven't watched them all.
我还没看过。
I haven't watched them.
你觉得我有那么多时间吗，唐？
You think I have that kind of time, Don?
你应该做的是，在你成为问题的一部分之前先做好研究。
What you should do, what you should do is your research before you're part of the problem.
太离谱了。
Outrageous.
我没法研究那个。
I can't do research on that.
我想等它在法庭上见分晓。
I I wanna wait till it plays out in court.
但每当我做研究时，我就拿这周的例子给你说吧，因为我现在正在读它。
But whenever I do do research like, I'll give you the the example from this week, just because I'm reading it now.
一位女性写了一本书，声称莎士比亚是一位黑人女性。
A woman's written a book claiming that Shakespeare was a black woman.
哦，我看过这个。
Oh, I saw that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，这可是个重大剧透。
So so this is a major spoiler alert.
莎士比亚其实并不是一位黑人女性，因为
Shakespeare wasn't a black woman by
太疯狂了。
the Crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
我有这本书，现在正在读。
I've got the book, I'm reading the book now.
情况比你想象的更糟。
It is worse than you imagined.
部分证据是：怎么可能比你想象的更糟？
Part of the evidence How could it be worse than I imagined?
因为，首先，这显然不是真的。
Because, because it's obviously not true, firstly.
当然。
Of course.
但她在这本书中基本声称，这件事应该是真的，所以呢？
But she basically says in the book that it's important that it should be true and therefore What?
是的。
Yeah.
事实上，这本书以一幅莎士比亚作为黑人女性的画像开篇，这幅画是作者画的。
And in fact, the book opens with a picture of Shakespeare as a black woman, which was drawn by the author.
哇哦。
Woah.
那那那真是...画得好吗？
That's that's that's so Is it a good drawing?
不好。
No.
还行吧。
It's okay.
我，我不想嘲笑别人
I I get I don't wanna mock someone
会看到的。
It's Gonna see it.
如果出版了，那是封面，是第一页哦，就是那本书。
If it's out, it's the front it's the first Oh, that's the book.
那其实还挺不错的。
That's actually pretty good.
不。
No.
不。
No.
那不是。
That's no.
不。
No.
那是一个黑人女性？
That's a black woman?
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
那是一幅艾米莉亚·拉尼亚的肖像，她说，嗯，莎士比亚。
That's a portrait of Emilia Lagna who she says well, Shakespeare.
她说当时的肖像画被漂白以掩盖她的黑人身份。
And she says that the portraits at the time were whitened to disguise her blackness.
在书里面
In in the book itself
不方便。
inconvenient.
在书里面，你是进不去书里的，别想了，杰米。
In the book itself, you won't be able to get in the book, don't think, Jamie.
但在书里面，有她画的一幅素描。
But in the book itself, there's a sketch that she's done.
所以就像是，我能想象出版商说，哦，你有什么证据？
So it's like, I can imagine a publisher saying, oh, what evidence have you got?
然后她就说，哦，好吧，我去给你画出来。
And she's like, oh, well, I'll I'll go and draw it for you.
而这正是她所谓的，哦，
And that's sort of what she Oh,
她是黑人，也是犹太人？
she was black and Jewish?
是的。
Yeah.
黑人犹太人。
Black Jewish.
实际上，埃米莉亚·拉尼亚有摩尔人血统，但不是黑人，皮肤也不特别深。
Well, actually, mean, Emilia Lanya was part part Moorish, but wasn't black, and she wasn't particularly dark skinned.
她也是犹太人吗？
And she was Jewish as well?
是的。
Yeah.
有一部分犹太血统。
Part Jewish.
好的。
Okay.
那么他们说的这位实际上是莎士比亚的女人是谁？
So who is this woman that they're saying actually was Shakespeare?
她叫艾米莉亚·拉尼亚或艾米莉亚·巴萨诺。
So she's called Emilia Lagna or Emilia Bassano.
其中一个论点是，如果她是女性，当时的莎士比亚是无法出版的，因为女性无法出版作品。
And one of the arguments is that Shakespeare at the time, if she was a woman, wouldn't have been able to get published, because women couldn't get published.
但艾米莉亚·拉尼亚是出版过的。
But Emilia Lagna was published.
她出版过一本诗集。
She had a book of poetry.
所以所有这些说法瞬间就站不住脚了。
So all of this stuff falls apart like in two seconds flat.
她还好吧。
She alright.
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