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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
兄弟。
Bro.
乔，很高兴认识你，兄弟。
Joe, very nice to meet you, brother.
见到你真是太好了。
It's so good to meet you.
我非常喜欢你在网上的内容，今天早上我看了你发现秘鲁一处未被记录的巨石遗址的视频，真的让我很着迷。
I have enjoyed your content tremendously online, and I really got into a video this morning that I was watching where you found this megalithic site that was undocumented in Peru.
令人难以置信的是，他们仍然有这些古代遗址，但不知为何，似乎他们得到的资金被窃取了，本该用于记录和登记这些遗址的资金，人们就直接说，去他妈的。
It's incredible that they still have these ancient sites that for whatever reason, it seems like the the money that they get gets stolen, like the money that is supposed to be allocated towards documenting these things and registering these things, people just say, fuck it.
我要把它收起来。
I'm gonna pocket it.
然后
And
这种情况发生的频率比你想象的要高得多。
It happens a lot more than you would you think.
它就是
It's just
难以置信，老兄。
hard to believe, man.
你记录的一些事情非常令人心碎。
Some of the stuff that you document is very heartbreaking.
比如有一次你用无人机飞越那些古代遗址，展示了有多少地方遭到了盗掘。
Like, one of them was when you flew a drone over these ancient ruins and you showed the amount of places that have been looted.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
而且就是这样，所有的一切。
And it's just all of it.
就是你看到这些洞。
It's just you see these holes.
当我第一次看到时，我在想，他给我看的是什么？
And when I first saw the I'm like, what is what is he showing me?
然后你就会意识到，这些都是有人挖掘和盗掘的地方，而且大部分都是在秘鲁这个地区过去二十年里发生的。
And then you're like, these are all spots where someone has dug in and looted, and most of it has been done in this area of Peru over the last twenty years.
在过去二十年里。
Over the last twenty years.
所以从2006年到2026年，更多
So from 2006 to 2026, more
我认为盗掘最严重的时期其实是上世纪八十年代到二千一十年代，虽然现在有所缓解。
I I I would have the biggest amount of looting happened it's actually died down some, but the end of the '20 so nineteen eighties to twenty tens, I would say.
那就是它
That's what it
真正开始爆发的时候。
really like, when it really took off.
你可以从那里留下的垃圾看出端倪，比如只在八十年代生产的香烟，或者只在九十年代生产的汽水瓶。
And you can tell from the trash that's left there, like cigarettes that were only produced in the eighties or, you know, soda bottles that were only produced in the nineties.
他们偷走文物，却留下垃圾，真是‘贴心’。
How nice of them to steal the artifacts and leave trash.
它们已经变成了人类遗骸的垃圾场。
It it they've become landfills of of human remains.
你所说的这个地方，足足有八公里长，看起来就像月球表面一样。
It's this place you're talking about is I mean, it's eight full kilometers of just it looks like the moon.
每个地点都被盗掘过，我必须亲自上去看看这到底是什么样子。
Every single location has been looted, and I like, was gotta go up up there and see what this looks like.
而且所以
And and so
请再靠近麦克风一点。
Pull up to the microphone a little bit more.
那么盗掘者在那个时期到底在找什么？
So looting, what are they at at that point in time?
我的意思是，这些遗址都有几百年甚至上千年的历史。
I mean, these are hundreds, thousands of years old, these sites.
那么他们到底发现了什么？
So what are they finding?
嗯，我找到的很多木乃伊都被撕得粉碎，那些包裹他们的棉布和纺织品也都被扯坏了。
Well, a lot of the mummies that I've because I've I've found mummies that have been torn torn apart literally, like they're the cotton that they're wrapped in, the textiles that they're wrapped in.
我的意思是，它们已经被搜刮一空了。
I mean, it's just they've been scavenged.
他们在找珠宝吗？
Are they looking for jewels?
是找人体上的某种金属制品，比如饰品之类的。
For for some sort of metallurgy, like, on on the person themselves.
不幸的是，你所看到的只是这些骨头散落在各处，还有破碎的陶器碎片。
The unfortunate thing is, I mean, all you'll see is you'll just see these these bones littered across the landscape with broken pieces of pottery.
这也很令人不安。
And That was also disturbing.
你到处都能看到骨头。
How much bones you see everywhere.
所以，你看，那边就有一根骨头。
So this is like, you see a bone right there.
这些都是你随手就能发现的散落的人类骨骼。
These are all human bones that you just find scattered.
这些都是棉布，而我们即将看到的是一具被撕碎的木乃伊。
That's all cotton, and what we're about to see here is an actual mummy that's been torn apart.
这太令人难过了，竟然没有任何保护措施。
This is it's so sad that there's no protection.
没人会去那里，老兄。
Nobody's going out there, man.
没人去。
Nobody.
只有盗墓者才会去。
Except for the looters.
我对秘鲁的了解非常少，除了众所周知的纳斯卡线条、木乃伊，还有这些各种各样的东西，以及这个地方的神秘之处。
But I know very little about Peru other than, you know, obviously, the Nazca lines, the mummies, all these different things, the the mystery of the place.
你能给他看一下吗？
Can you show him that, please?
视频是
The video is
结束了。
over.
哦，结束了？
Oh, it's over?
但有一些墓葬的无人机航拍镜头。
But There's a there's a couple burial burial drone shots.
你
You
但这只是
But it's just
你到顶部去。
You go to the top.
秘鲁有多大？
How big is Peru?
我甚至不知道它在地理上有多大
I don't even know geographically how large it
是。
is.
我的意思是，秘鲁非常大。
I mean, Peru Peru Peru is huge.
我的意思是，这又是一个不同的被盗掘遗址。
I mean, it takes up this is another this is a different looted site.
所以这一切都位于帕拉卡斯-纳斯卡生态区。
So this is all this all of this is in the Paracas Nazca ecoregion.
这些头骨就只是这样摆在那儿？
And these this is skulls are just sitting there?
盗墓者通常会离开，我不知道，但会把它们这样摆放。
So the looters will oftentimes leave, I don't know, set them up in this fashion.
我去过的每一个遗址，最后都会看到类似这样的布置。
There there isn't a site I've gone to where I haven't seen something like set up like this in in the end.
但我后退拍摄，以展示它的规模。
But so I I I pull out to show the scale of it.
我的意思是，你看到的每一片白色，都是人体的一部分。
I mean, every little piece of white you see is is some part of a human.
哇。
Wow.
这太悲惨了，老兄。
It's tragic, man.
这么多历史就这么遗失了。
Just so much history lost.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这些东西最后会流入私人收藏吗？
And so does this stuff wind up in private collections?
博物馆会得到这些吗？
Is do museums ever get it?
这些玩意儿到底去哪儿了？
Like, what what happens to that stuff?
我认为博物馆根本得不到这些东西。
I don't think museums get it at all.
都是私人买家。
It's private private buyers.
我Actually遇到了一个术语，叫盗墓者。
I actually met a the term is, it's a grave robber.
我确实在利马的米拉弗洛雷斯区的一家手工艺品店遇到过一个，那里正在出售一些古董。
I actually met one in Mira Flores in in Lima proper at one of the artesanales where they're selling, you know, ancient goods.
有些东西确实是他们亲自去盗掘的真品。
Well, some of them have real things that they they go out and they loot.
我的意思是，这正是我一直在思考的问题，比如未来能对此做些什么，因为政府根本没人出去处理。
And I mean, that this is one of the things I've been thinking about, like, for for the future, like, what what can be done about this because the government nobody from the government's going out there.
所以这些东西最终都流入了私人收藏，包括纺织品、人类遗骸、陶器，这些本该在博物馆里看到的东西。
And so these things end up in private collections, textiles, humans, pottery, things that you would see in museums.
就是没有任何官方机构愿意专门跑一趟去保护这些文物。
It's just nobody from that official administration is taking the trip to go out there and preserve these things.
它
It
秘鲁的古代文明似乎是一个巨大的谜团。
seems like just the ancient civilization of Peru is a massive mystery.
看起来那个地区还有很多未被揭示的故事。
It's it seems like there are a lot of uncovered stories in that area.
曾经是个热点地区。
Was a hotspot.
除了独立研究者之外，似乎并没有太多研究在进行。
And it doesn't seem like there's an incredible amount of research being done other than by independent people.
我的意思是，乔，秘鲁有太多东西了。
They I mean, so Joe, there there's just so much in Peru.
你随便扔块石头，都能找到一个古代考古遗址。
I mean, you throw a stone and you're finding an ancient archaeological site.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，他们每次进行建设时，总会遇到古代建筑或遗骸。
I mean, they're they're doing whenever they do construction, they end up coming across structures or bones.
我是说，上次考察我走遍了全国，考古遗址随处可见。
I mean, this last expedition, I I went all over the country and there is no lack of archaeological sites.
所以资金——研究所有这些地方所需的资金量是极其庞大的。
So the money and I just the money it would take to fund research on all these places is just extreme.
这确实非常庞大。
It it's extreme.
我认为有很多历史因为当前发生的事情而被忽略了，但很多时候，很多研究都集中在能带来旅游业的东西上。
I think there's a lot of history that that goes missed because because of what's currently happening, but a lot of times, a lot of the research is focused on what's going to bring tourism.
没错。
Right.
比如马丘比丘之类的，那些地方也很不可思议。
Like Machu Picchu, things along those lines, which is also insane.
但确实非常壮观。
But phenomenal.
真是不可思议。
It's incredible.
就像，那个地方简直让人难以置信。
Like, that place is like, what?
为什么？
Why?
怎么做到的？
How?
为什么要建在这上面？
Why'd you build it up here?
真是疯了。
Fucking nuts.
我的一个好朋友刚去过。
A a good friend of mine just actually went.
他最近刚带家人去了马丘比丘，他说这完全不合常理，老兄。
Just recently took his family up to Machu Picchu, and he's like, it doesn't even make any sense, man.
老兄，马丘比丘是我家来自秘鲁的起点，所以我从小就去那里，而且我还有个老式的，就是你们用那种录像带摄像机拍摄的时候，
Dude, Machu Picchu is what started my family's from Peru, so I would grow up going there, and and I have this old back when you were filming with cameras with, like,
呃
a a
录像带，里面有我在马丘比丘捡贝壳的镜头，那时候我才多大？
videotape, There's footage of me finding seashells at Machu Picchu when I was What?
大概10岁的时候。
When I was, like, 10 years old.
那时候，你想去哪儿都可以。
Back then, you you could go wherever you wanted.
你不必非得沿着路线走。
You didn't have to stay on a path.
所以我我
And so I I
不知道。
don't know.
10岁？对于不了解的人，马丘比丘海拔大约12,000英尺吧？
Was 10 For people that don't know, Machu Picchu is, like, what, 12,000
海拔12,000英尺？
feet above sea level?
是的。
Yeah.
所以那时候我还是个孩子，在那里到处跑。
And so and so I'm I'm a kid in it.
我到现在还留着那段模糊的录像，当时我正对着摄像机给我爸爸看。
I mean, I still have the footage, the grainy footage, and I'm showing my dad on the cam.
爸爸，爸爸，快看。
Like, dad, dad, look.
我找到了贝壳。
I found seashells.
你知道吗？
You know?
我看到它们嵌在墙里的泥里，闪闪发亮，于是我就把它们挖了出来。
I saw them in in inside of they were, like, glinting in the mud in the wall, and so I I took them out.
这正是引发我整个探索过程的起点。
And that's what started this whole process for me.
我当时就是那样的。
I was just like that.
让我震惊的是，那里居然会有贝壳，海拔那么高。
It blew my mind that there were seashells way up there.
于是我开始研究地球灾变和古代历史，了解海平面曾经的变化，正是这一刻开启了我人生的这条道路。
And so I studied about earth cataclysms and ancient history and and when sea levels were different, and that just that that is a moment that started kind of this whole path for me.
那时候你多大？
How old were you at the time?
十岁或十二岁。
10 or 12.
真厉害。
Wow.
哇。
Wow.
自从那以后，你去过多少次了？
How many times have you been there since?
嗯，我小时候，我们差不多每一年半就去一次，这种习惯一直延续到了我的成年时期。
Well, growing up, we used to go every year and a half or so, and that's continued into my adulthood.
直到最近这两年，我才开始做我现在所做的事情——也就是高强度的独自探险。
It's only been recently the past two years that I've been doing what I've what I've been doing, which is like hardcore solo expeditions.
所以当你看到马丘比丘这样的遗址，或者任何这些古代遗址时，传统考古学家认为它们的年代是怎样的？
And so when you look at a site like Machu Picchu or, you know, any of these ancient sites, what what is the timeline that conventional archaeologists attribute?
我的意思是，他们认为这些是印加人建造的，也就是14世纪末到15世纪初左右。
I mean, they they attribute it to the Inca, which, you know, '14, late fourteen hundreds, early fifteen hundreds.
我觉得印加人是在1530年左右被西班牙人征服的，我想是这样。
I think the Inca were conquered in by the Spanish in fifteen fifteen thirty, I think.
因此，他们大多将这些巨石建筑归因于印加人。
And so most of that megalithic architecture they attribute to the Inca.
然而，有一些证据表明，有一个叫Vinayake的遗址，杰米，如果你能调出来看一下。
However, there's evidence that there's a site, Jamie, if you could pull it up, it's called Vinayake.
这个地方有巨石建筑，其精度深入到这座山下50英尺。
This this place is there's megalithic architecture with precision that goes down 50 feet under under this mountain.
你来看看这个。
It's check this out.
哇哦。
Woah.
我不可能把它埋得这么深。
I can't bury it so deeply underneath.
这太疯狂了。
This is crazy.
所以我认为他们是在现代时期填平了顶部，但顶部仍有灰浆。
So I believe they filled in the top to in modern times, but the There's mortar at the top.
很快，就会有一个人给我们看一张地图。
And very soon, there's gonna be a guy who shows us a map.
这太不可思议了。
That's incredible.
哇。
Wow.
所以你看到的是非常不同的建筑结构
And so you see very different construction
非常不同的建筑结构。
Very different construction.
从底部到顶部。
From the bottom to the top.
但事情总是这样的。
But that's how it always is.
对吧？
Right?
最复杂的东西。
The most complex stuff.
所以
So
这这显示这里的建筑结构，它深入山中50英尺。
that's that's showing that this architecture here, it goes down 50 feet into this mountain.
他们认为这是什么？
And what do they think this was?
所以这个建筑群都被认为是瓦里人所建。
So this complex is all attributed to the Wari.
这被归功于印加文明之前的文化，但这让我不太理解，因为你在地表看到的都是瓦雷风格的建筑。
It's attributed to the culture that came right before the Inca, which doesn't make much sense to me because what you see on the surface, that's warrey construction.
那是用小石头砌成的。
They Which is small stones.
对。
Right.
它们是用什么材料粘合在一起的？
And What are what are they held together with?
泥浆作为灰浆。
Mud mortar.
用泥巴当灰浆。
Mud as mortar.
但这个遗址目前只挖掘了4%。
And but then so this site has only been 4% excavated.
4%。
4%.
所有这些下面都是这种建筑结构，
It's underneath all of it is that type of architecture,
这太疯狂了。
which is crazy.
所以你上面用的是泥浆和小石块，而下面却是精确切割的巨石。
So you have mud and mortar with very small stones, and then underneath it, you have precision cut megalithic stones.
是的。
Yeah.
这些石头有多大？它们据说是从哪里来的？
And how big are these stones, and where are they supposedly coming from?
这有个有趣的故事。
That so here's a funny story.
所以这个地方，如果你看的话，可以在谷歌地图上找到。
So this place if you look you can you can find it on on Google Maps.
他们称它为埃尔孔普雷霍德沃里，也就是沃里遗址。
It's you know, they call it the El Complrejo De Worri, so the Worri Complex.
但如果你回溯西班牙编年史，佩德罗·塞斯·德莱昂在蒂瓦纳库时。
But if you go back to the Spanish chronicles, Pedro Seyes de Leon when he was in Tiwanaku.
蒂瓦纳库就是普马彭库所在的地方，在玻利维亚。
So Tiwanaku where Puma Punku is in Bolivia.
当他们问当地人是谁建造了这些时，他们说：我们不知道。
When they ask the natives, you know, who built this, they say, we don't know.
它是在我们之前，由湖边的人建造的。
It was built before us from the people from the lake.
就是那些建造了维尼亚克的人。
The same people who built Vinyake.
当地人就是这么说的。
That's what the natives said.
那个叫维尼亚克的地方距离蒂瓦纳库有八百到一千公里。
That place Vinyake is 800, a thousand kilometers from Tiwanaku.
而且它们的建造方式是一样的。
So and it's the same construction.
所以当地人说的这种说法还挺有道理的。
So would it makes sense kinda what they're saying.
建造蒂瓦纳库的人也建造了这个地方。
The people who built Tiwanaku also built this place.
但在他们知道之前，他们并没有亲眼见证过。
But before they know before they knew that they didn't witness it.
当地人说，当他们到达那里时，这些地方就已经存在了。
They was just there when they got there is what the locals say.
嗯，那就是
Well, that's
很多东西啊。
a lot of stuff.
对吧？
Right?
这正是南美洲的奇特之处的一部分。
That's part of the weirdness of South America.
是的。
Yeah.
还有，你知道的，甚至墨西哥。
And, you know, even Mexico.
对吧？
Right?
天哪。
Damn.
这就是阿兹特克建筑的奇怪之处。
It's that's the the weirdness of the axe Aztec structures.
直到最近我才了解到，阿兹特克人把特诺奇蒂特兰称为众神诞生之地。
I didn't know that until pretty recently that the Aztecs labeled, like, Tenochtitlan, the place where the gods were born.
我不知道这一点。
I didn't know that.
是的。
Yeah.
我也不知道这一点。
I didn't know that.
他们并不把这一点归于自己。
They they don't attribute that to themselves.
他们自己。
Themselves.
我们在清理这片区域时发现了它。
They they found it when we cleared the area.
我的意思是，你想想看。
I mean, you think about it.
直到今天，我仍然记得，我当时在的的喀喀湖，那里到处都是建筑，但你会想，这些人住在哪里？
I I've still to this day, you know, I I I was up in Lake Titicaca, and, I mean, there's structures all over the place, but you're like, where were these people living?
因为根本看不到城市或城镇的遗迹。
And you because there's no remnants of cities or towns.
原因是，在现代，人们把那些石块重新利用，用来建农场、盖房子之类的。
And the reason is is because in modern times, people have recommissioned the blocks and started and used them for their farms and their homes and things like that.
你有一个好地点，一个神圣的地方，下一个文明就会在此基础上建造，你知道的，我认为这在很多地方都发生过。
You have a good location, a place of reverence, a play you're gonna build the next the next culture is going to build on it, you know, and I think that's happened a lot in a lot of places.
是的。
Yeah.
到处都是。
Well, everywhere.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，黎巴嫩也是这样。
I mean, that's Lebanon too.
那就是巴勒贝克。
That's Baalbek.
似乎这些巨大的石头确实如此。
It's it seems to be the case that those Yeah.
那些巨大的石块，罗马人是在它们上面建造的。
Those immense stones where the Romans built on top of them.
但罗马人的记录非常精确。
But there's the Roman documentation is pretty precise.
他们记录了一切，却从未提及那些重达千吨、高七米悬在空中的巨石。
They documented everything, and they never talked about these enormous thousand ton stones that are seven meters up in the air.
现在我们只是把它们放在我们结构的底部。
Now we're just gonna put them in the base of our structure here.
对吧？
Right?
什么？
What?
他们甚至根本没提到过这些石头。
They didn't even talk about them.
他们只谈论了那些明显是罗马风格的、建在上面的精美建筑，但下面的那些东西完全违背了常理。
They talked about the the these beautiful structures that are on top of that are clearly Roman, but the stuff underneath it just defies logic.
有些石头从未被移动或安放，它们被切割和开采出来，但就是这样。
And some of the stones that were never moved and put into place that were cut and quarried Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但就是从未被移动过。
But just never moved.
1600吨？
1,600 tons?
怎么可能？
Like How?
还有一些东西，是如今无法复制的，你知道的。
And things you can't replicate, you know, nowadays.
这真是
It's
这才是最疯狂的地方。
That's what's crazy.
即使有现代机械，我们也做不到。
Like, with modern machinery, we can't do it.
我
I
我的意思是，自从我踏上这条道路，我就一直这样想，你知道的，《上帝的指纹》是我最早读的书之一。
mean, it's I've always when I started this path, you know, I was you know, Fingerprints of the Gods was one of the first books I picked up.
我也是。
Me too.
我爸爸的书架上就有这本书，就是它让我走上了这条道路。
My dad had it in his library and and and and that just that set me off on a on a course.
而且那种无法做到的能力，我不知道怎么说。
And the the inability to be able to to I I don't know.
我不相信主流的说法。
I don't I don't buy the mainstream.
主流对这些事情的回应显得有点懒惰，与其给出那些解释，不如直接说‘我不知道’。
It's it feels a little bit lazy, the the responses that that the mainstream kinda gives to some of this stuff as opposed to just saying I don't know.
这是故意无知。
It's purposely ignorant.
这不仅仅是懒惰。
It's more than lazy.
因为如果只是懒惰，那他们早就面对过这么多另类考古学的证据，面对过这么多探索过这些现象并展示出结果的人。
Because if it was just lazy, the the I mean, they've been confronted by all this other alternative archaeology evidence and all these other people that have, like, explored these things and shown.
而传统的观点一直认为，当时根本不存在能够完成这些工程的社会，所以他们不得不把这些归功于更晚近的社会。
And that there was always the conventional wisdom that there was no society back then that was capable of doing this, so they had to attribute it to more recent societies.
直到回去，别管那个糟糕的。
Until go back, leave that bad.
是的
Yeah.
然后
Then
然后你就想，好吧。
Then you're like, okay.
你们闭嘴吧。
You guys need to shut the fuck up.
我的意思是，承认这一点是有力量的，如果我们真的在寻找真相，那么好吧。
It's I mean, the the there's a power in admitting, like, you're if we're looking for the truth here, then it's like, okay.
我们有了这些证据，它们颠覆了我们以前的认知。
We got this evidence that disrupts this that we thought before.
好吧。
Alright.
就说
Just say
那个。
that.
对。
Right.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
他们就是这么说的。
They just say it.
它它
It it
令人着迷的是，他们无法做到，你知道的，因为他们就像其他任何学术领域一样。
it It's fascinating that they can't, you know, because they are like every other form of academia.
他们就跟我说，你还不如跟一个性别研究老师说话呢。
They're they are just like I mean, you might as well be talking to a gender studies teacher.
就像他们不愿意正视现实一样。
Just like they don't wanna look at reality.
他们只是想要自己的叙事，想成为信息的把关者，然后一味地推动这个叙事。
They just did just want their narrative, and they wanna be the gatekeepers of information, and then they just wanna push that narrative forward.
而且他们还特别刻薄。
And they're so mean.
老兄，我最近才开始用X，就在过去一年，我简直被这里的勾心斗角惊到了，真的，就是
Dude, it I only started recently being on x within the past year, and I'm just like the cattiness of it all, man, is Well, it just
暴露了他们的真实面目。
exposes them.
暴露了他们的性格，他们根本不是我想和任何人讨论问题的那种人。
It exposes their personality, and they're just not the type of people that I wanna talk to about anything.
尤其是你，一个41岁的人，怎么可能成为古代历史的把关者呢？
Especially not you're not the gate if you're a 41 year old person, you're not the gatekeeper of ancient history.
你根本不可能是。
You can't be.
可讨论的东西太多了。
There's too much.
全世界到处都是这样。
There's too much all over the world.
这毫无道理。
It doesn't make sense.
这一切都毫无意义。
None of it makes sense.
我想，这就是他们如此害怕像费利佩·奥比昂迪这样的人，以及金字塔下的扫描结果的原因。
And that's, I think, why they're so terrified of people like Felipe Obiondi and the the And the scans under the pyramids.
因为如果他是对的，而看起来他确实是对的，已经有超过200次独立的扫描结果。
Because if he's right, and it appears he is, over 200 different independent scans.
是的。
Yeah.
而它们都说的是完全相同的事情。
And they all say the exact same thing.
如果他是对的，你们就完蛋了，因为你们最终不得不承认：我们错了。
If he's right, you guys are fucked because you have to you're gonna eventually have to say, we're wrong.
你现在有一个时刻，可以做出正确的选择。
It's it's you you you have a a moment here where you can choose Right.
选择前进的方向。
Which direction to go.
很快，这个时刻就会消失。
Pretty soon, that moment's gonna be lost.
是的。
Yeah.
但正如证据所展示的，正如你所说，已经有超过200项独立研究证实了这一点。
But it's like, this is what the evidence has presented, and like you said, it's verified over 200 different studies.
好吧。
It's like, alright.
我们可能错了。
We might be wrong.
让我们
Let's
对。
Right.
他去了
He went
通过
through the
他们那些
ones they
他们不想做，他们不想做那件事。
don't wanna do they don't wanna do that.
他们仍然顽固不化，只是在自我贬低，这很有趣。
They're still digging their heels in, and they're just discrediting themselves, which is fascinating.
这真的很有趣。
It's really interesting.
看着这些混蛋手足无措，真的很有意思。
It's really interesting to watch these assholes just like flounder.
而且这让我想到，你知道，背后的原因是什么？
Well and and it it makes me think, you know, what's the reason behind it?
是自尊吗？
Is it pride?
是自负吗？
Is it ego?
是因为你写过关于这个的书，所以你得继续卖吗？
It's is it because you wrote some books on it that you need to keep selling?
是因为它被写进了大学使用的教科书里吗？
Is it because it's in textbooks that universities use?
我的意思是，这确实
I mean, it there's It's
全都包括在内。
all above.
这其中有很多层面。
There's a lot of layers to it.
以上原因都有，但从他们在网上的交流方式就能看出来，很大程度上是自尊心作祟。
It's all the above, but you can tell just by the way they communicate online, a lot of it is ego.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
很大程度上是自尊心作祟，而且性格真的很糟糕。
A lot of it is ego and just really bad personalities.
你知道，这些人习惯了从不被质疑，习惯了学术界的等级制度，那里有终身教授，然后有在他们手下成长的人，大家都遵循着同样的
You know, these people that are accustomed to never being questioned, accustomed to being in the hierarchy of academia where, you know, you have these tenured professors, and then they have the people that are coming up under them, and they all follow the same sort of
是的。
Yeah.
僵化结构。
Rigid structure.
所以任何异端思想家，任何跳出框架的人，都会遭到猛烈抨击。
And so any heterodox thinkers, anybody who comes in from outside the box, they just get shit all over.
是的。
Yeah.
缺乏开放的心态。
There's no open mindedness.
我知道，我不确定这是否像一个寓言之类的，但你知道，我不确定。
I know I I don't know if this is like a parable or something, but, you know, I don't know.
有个故事，说有一辆卡车开进隧道，卡住了，堵住了交通，没人能通过。
Some story where there's there's a truck going into a tunnel and it gets stuck, and it's backing up traffic and nobody can get through.
大家都想尽办法弄清楚该怎么让这辆卡车通过。
Everybody's trying to figure out what the hell how to get this truck through.
结果，一个农夫走过来，只是说：把轮胎的气放掉。
And just, you know, some some farmer walks up and he's just like, take the air out the tires.
问题就解决了。
And and problem solved.
所以，无法允许他人带着想法和观点加入，这真的严重影响了对这些事物的研究，因为就我所去的一些地方而言，我认为确实如此，我们有研究。
And so the inability to let other people come in with with thoughts and opinions, it just it really I think it's it's a real detriment to to to the study of these things because in my approach to some of the places I've gone, I think it is that yes, we have research.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
是的，这些地方对发生的事情有一定程度的理解。
Yes, there is a level of understanding at a lot of these places what happened.
但同时也需要带着全新的视角去审视。
But it's also that going into it with a fresh set of eyes.
有时候，我会完全沉浸在自己的工作中。
Sometimes, I I get so locked in my work.
有时候我无法跳出这个框架来看问题。
Sometimes I can't see outside of it.
有时候需要另一个人介入，然后你的思维突然就朝着完全不同的方向被打开了。
Sometimes it takes another party to come in and all of a sudden your mind is blown in a completely different direction.
我觉得在很多主流学术界，对于这类事情缺乏那种程度的开放性。
I don't see that level of openness to things on the side of a lot of a lot of the mainstream academia when it comes to this stuff.
第六十届超级碗值得拥有一个为此刻而生的体育博彩平台。
Super Bowl sixty deserves a sports book built for the moment.
DraftKings体育博彩，作为第六十届超级碗的官方体育博彩合作伙伴，让你直接置身于年度最大赛事的中心。
DraftKings sports book, an official sports betting partner of Super Bowl sixty, puts you right in the center of the biggest game of the year.
超级碗期间任何事情都可能发生，DraftKings为您提供提前结算保障。
Anything can happen during the Super Bowl, and DraftKings has your back with early exit.
如果您的球员在上半场受伤，投注结算时您仍能获得现金赔付。
If your player goes down in the first half, you still get paid in cash when your bet settles.
没有奖励投注，无需等待。
No bonus bets, no waiting.
当其他体育博彩平台不提供伤病保障时，DraftKings覆盖整个上半场，甚至包括第二节。
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提前结算功能也适用于实时投注。
An early exit works on live bets too.
赛前还是赛中，DraftKings都能满足你的需求。
Pregame or in game, DraftKings has got you covered.
刚接触DraftKings？
New to DraftKings?
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New customers can bet just $5 to get 300 in bonus bets if your bet wins.
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使用代码ROGAN，即可将5美元转化为300美元的奖金投注，如果你的投注获胜的话。
That's code ROGAN to turn $5 into 300 in bonus bets if your bet wins.
与DraftKings合作，王冠属于你。
In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.
有赌博问题吗？
Gambling problem?
在纽约请拨打+1 800，或拨打8778，或发送短信HOPE至47369。
Call +1 800 In New York, call 8778 or text HOPE and Y 47369.
在康涅狄格州，请拨打(888) 789-7777或访问ccpg.org，代表堪萨斯州布特希尔赌场度假村。
In Connecticut, call (888) 789-7777 or visit ccpg.org on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas.
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Pass through of per wager tax may apply in Illinois.
年满21岁方可参与。
21 and over.
年龄和资格要求因司法管辖区而异。
Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction.
在安大略省无效。
Void in Ontario.
适用限制条件。
Restrictions apply.
投注必须获胜才能获得奖金投注，奖金投注将在七天后过期。
Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days.
最低赔率要求。
Minimum odds required.
更多条款及负责任博彩资源，请访问dkng.co/audio。
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限时优惠。
Limited time offer.
人们必须明白，宾夕法尼亚大学这个概念只有几百年历史，这才是奇怪的地方。
Well, people have to really understand that the whole concept of Bing's Ching Academia is only a few 100 years old, and that's what's weird.
就像这些非常近期的结构，这些非常近期的机构想要成为世界上大片信息领域的看门人。
It's like so these very recent structures, these very recent establishments want to be the gatekeepers of information of a vast swath of the world.
我的意思是，那是不可能的。
I mean, there it's not possible.
你不可能知道所有事情。
It's not possible that you know everything.
确实不是。
It's it's not.
我刚才也在想这个问题。
I was thinking about that.
你懂得真多。
You know a lot.
他们对自己发现的事物了解得很深入。
They know a lot about things they have discovered.
确实如此。
They do.
他们对美索不达米亚了解很多。
They know a lot about Mesopotamia.
他们对伊拉克了解很多，那些他们发现的令人惊叹的东西。
They know a lot about Iraq, all the the the amazing stuff that they find.
有些东西他们精确地确定了年代，但这并不能解释那些无法解释的现象，而他们试图去
There's some stuff they they're very accurately dated, but it doesn't it doesn't explain things that you can't explain, and they want to try to
只是把它套进
Just fit it into the
是的。
Yeah.
这真是荒谬。
That's what's goofy.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你看。
That's I mean, look.
如果拼图块不合适，就别硬往里塞了。
If the puzzle piece doesn't fit, stop trying to force it.
嗯，而且更像是那些更巨大壮观的部分，你却觉得它们不重要。
Well, it's also it's like more gigantic spectacular pieces, and you're like, oh, those aren't important.
我是说，本·范·柯克最近的那些发现，他们用探地雷达找到了迷宫，还有那个在地下中庭里的40米长金属物体？
I mean, Ben Van Kirkwick with this most recent discoveries where they're using the ground penetrating radar to find the labyrinths and this 40 meter long metallic object that's inside of an atrium down there?
那东西到底是什么？
Like, what is that thing?
是的。
Yeah.
我我希望这是——如果不管怎样如果他们去寻找，我希望他们会去，这是另一件事。
I I have my I hope it's something my my if if whatever if they go looking, and I hope they do, and this is the other thing.
就像是，我们现在就开始为这个投入资金吧。
It's like, let's let's start putting money towards this, like, now.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
对。
Right.
赶紧弄清楚这个。
Like, figure this out.
我不明白我为什么会这么想。
I don't know why I thought this.
我觉得它可能是一块陨石。
I I think it might be a meteorite.
如果它是一种金属物体的话。
If if it's some sort of, like, metallic thing.
40米长的陨石。
40 meter long meteor.
我知道。
I know.
那可是能终结文明的东西。
That's a fucking civilization ender.
但想象一下下一个文明发现那东西并听到这些故事的情景。
But imagine the next civilization coming across that thing and hearing the stories.
就像是
It's like
没错。
Right.
靠。
Shit.
我们就在那里崇拜它吧。
Let's worship this there.
比如，我们要以某种方式尊崇它，把它放在中庭里。
Like, let's revere it somehow and put it in an atrium.
嗯，就像麦加那样。
Well, like, Mecca.
想法。
Thought.
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
对吧
Right?
没错
Exactly.
比如，这个有40米长。
Like, there's this one's 40 meters.
是的
Yeah.
麦加有一块陨石，大家都去摸它，是的。
There's a meteorite at Mecca that they all go to touch Yeah.
这有点疯狂。
Which is kinda crazy.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但这完全说得通。
But completely makes sense.
对吧？
Right?
从天上掉下来东西，砸在地上，造成混乱，然后你就去崇拜它。
Something comes from the sky, it lands, causes chaos, and then you worship it.
我的意思是，图坦卡蒙国王的刀子不也是用陨石做的吗？
I mean, that also, wasn't one of, like, king king Tut's knives was made instead of a meteorite or something like that?
我的意思是，他们当时确实在发现这些东西。
I mean, so they were finding these things.
你知道的？
You know?
40米长的已经相当大了。
40 meter one is pretty big, though.
我知道。
I know.
但它的形状还是像糖果那样。
But also Tic Tac shaped.
这正是另一件事。
That's the that's the other thing.
我一听说它来了，就只想赶紧走。
I'm like so when it come I'm just like, let's let's go.
赶紧走。
Let's go.
你知道的，这属于鲍勃·拉扎尔的传说的一部分。
Well, you know, that's part of the Bob Lazar lore.
我记得。
I I remember.
鲍勃·拉扎尔说过，当他被告知这些东西至少有一个来自考古挖掘时。
Bob Lazar said that when he was told that at least one of these things came from an archaeological dig.
是的。
Yep.
比如，什么？
Like, what?
什么什么什么意思？
What what what do what do mean?
他说，他们就是这么告诉我的。
He's like, that's what they were telling me.
我不知道。
I don't know.
但他们告诉我其中一个是考古挖掘出来的。
But they told me that one of them was from an archaeological dig.
所以这些东西真的很古老。
So these things are really old.
老兄，他的准确性涉及到元素118
Dude, and and his accuracy was some of with the element one eighteen
115号元素。
One fifteen.
01/15，类似这样的。
01/15, something like that.
从1989年开始，是的。
From 1989 Yeah.
元素115直到二月份才被发现。
When element one fifteen wasn't even discovered until the February.
我的意思是，这就是为什么当他和...我忘了在外面和谁聊天，但我们在讨论，我想是在和杰米聊这个，关于鲍勃·拉扎尔提到的某些东西来自考古遗址的事情。
I mean, that's why when when he's I forget who I was I was talking to outside, but we were talking about I think it's talking to Jamie about that, about Bob's Bob Lazar talking about some of these things coming from an archaeological sites.
是的。
Yeah.
我们去找找看吧。
Let's go find it.
对。
Right.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
嗯，这就变得非常诡异了。
Well, that's where it gets really weird.
真正诡异的地方在于这些木乃伊。
Where it gets really weird is these mummies.
哦，我们要去看那些木乃伊了。
Oh, we're gonna go to the mummies.
我们到了，杰米。
We're there, Jamie.
埃里克·伯勒森，一位代表，谈到他如何请求白宫授予国防部权力，让他们去查看这些东西，包括那个被掩埋的UFO。
Eric Burleson, a representative, talking about how he's asked the White House to give DOD the power to let them go see this stuff, including that a buried UFO.
据报道，有一个不在本国的物体，其体积庞大到无法移动。
Reportedly an object that is not in this country that is so large it cannot be moved.
他们围绕它建造了一整栋建筑，我认为要么是格里尔要么是另一个人确实提到过这个地方，但我不会具体说明，因为这是一个机密地点。
That they've built an entire building around it and I think that I think either Greer or another individual has actually mentioned this site but I'm not gonna mention it because it is a classified location.
但据报道确实存在一个非常大的物体，那就是我请求前往的地点之一。
But there is a a a really apparent there's reported a really large object, and and that's one of the locations that I've I'm requesting to to get to.
要实现这个目标需要付出很多努力，但那可能是最终的目的地。
It's gonna involve a lot to get to make that happen, but that may be the final destination.
这种事情让我真想竞选总统
Shit like that makes me wanna run for president
因为就这些了
because that's all
我会关心的
I would care about.
经济会一团糟
The economy would be in shambles.
我会说，给我看看那些UFO
I'd be like, show me the UFOs.
你觉得他们会这么做吗？
Do you think do you think they'd do it?
因为我听说那种事，简直要了我的命。
Because I because I've heard that like kill me.
我的意思是，这是基于需要知道的原则，他们连总统都瞒着。
I mean, it on that need to know basis where they're keeping stuff from presidents.
你知道的。
You know?
肯尼迪靠得太近了。
Kennedy got too close.
就像
Like
我不认为他们杀肯尼迪就是为了这个，但我认为还有很多其他事情。
I don't think that's what they killed Kennedy for, but I think there's a bunch of things.
他们知道。
The the know.
这里面有很多层内幕。
There's there's a whole lot of layers.
是的。
Yeah.
但研究UFO的人喜欢认为那是UFO的原因。
But the the UFO people love to think that it's UFOs.
所以他们才杀了肯尼迪。
That's why they killed Kennedy.
但他们觉得所有事情都是UFO。
But they think everything's UFOs.
但这确实看起来像是——我不了解证据，你知道，因为这些只是传闻。
But it it's it it definitely seems like I don't know about the evidence, you know, because it's just stories.
问题在于很多这类事情——这也是很多人上播客跟我交谈时的感觉，你知道，那些所谓的吹哨人。
And that's the problem is that a lot of this stuff and this is how I feel when a lot of people come on the podcast and talk to me, you know, supposed whistleblowers.
我觉得其中一些人是真实的，而另一些我认为是散布虚假信息的专家。
Some of them I think are legitimate, and some of them I think are disinformation specialists.
所以我认为它们是故意把水搅浑，这就是它们的目的，你知道，它们所说的就是为了混淆视听，这就是它们试图做的。
So I think they're designed to muddy up the water and this is the they're what, you know, what they're saying is designed to muddy up the water and that's what they're trying to do.
它们试图让很多这类事情看起来荒谬可笑，推动某些特定叙事，制造混乱。
They're trying to make a lot of this stuff look silly and and push certain narratives and just create confusion.
而且我认为其中很多可能是我们拥有的某些黑色预算下的怪异科学项目。
And I think a lot of it is probably some black budget weird science stuff that we have.
但这又引出了一个问题：你们是从哪里得到这些东西的？
But then it begs the question, where'd you get that?
嗯，就像戴安娜·帕苏尔卡的研究那样，她谈到这些本质上就像是捐赠品，我们应该接收这些东西并尝试解开谜团，然后你看看罗斯威尔事件之后迅速出现的一些不同发明创造。
Well, is is that really like the Diana Pasulka work where she's talking about their essentially, these things are donations and that we're supposed to, like, take these things and try to figure it out, and then you look at some of the creation of some different inventions that happened very quickly after Roswell.
我的意思是，
I mean,
我们的文明，我是说，从那以后就一直处于爆发式发展。
our our our civilization just, I mean, just been on a boom ever since.
确实。
Yeah.
奇怪的东西。
Weird stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
比如光纤材料和晶体管，晶体管，晶体管发明的历史以及参与其中的人们。
Like the fiber optic stuff and transistors, transistors, the the just the the the history of the creation of the transistor and the people that were involved in it.
看起来真他妈的诡异。
Seems awful fucking fishy.
我是说，我尽量坚持我能切实弄清楚的证据，但这变得非常模糊不清。
I mean, I I try to stick with what I evidence that I can make out tangibly, and it just gets so murky.
就像你说的，这一切都变得如此模糊，以至于我甚至不知道真相会如何呈现。
Like like you said, it just it just all of this gets so murky that I I don't I don't know how the truth would even land.
你明白吗？
You know?
嗯，如果世界各国政府进行全面协调的努力，真相就必须呈现出来。
Well, the truth would have to land if there was an overall comprehensive effort by all of the world governments.
而且这一切必须达成某种统一，必须有一种共识，认识到这对整个人类理解我们的过去至关重要。
And there would have to be some sort of unity in this and some some sort of, like, an a a recognition that this is really important for the entire human population to understand our past.
是的。
Yeah.
如果这是胡说八道，那就让我们弄清楚它确实是胡说八道。
And if this is nonsense, let's find out that it's nonsense.
如果这是真的，那就会改变一切。
And if this is real, this changes everything.
对。
Yeah.
当你仅仅看看宇宙的浩瀚时。
And when you look at just just look at the vastness of the cosmos.
这并不超出可能的范围。
It's not outside of the realm of possibility.
这些东西要么来自别处，要么就是当初它们就在这里。
This stuff either came from somewhere else or was here because they were here.
这里曾经存在过一个先进的文明，无论是我们的文明，还是那些木乃伊到底是什么。
That there was an advanced civilization here, whether it's our civilization or whatever the hell those mummies are.
因为三指木乃伊太奇怪了。
Because the the tridactyl mummies are weird.
我们确实觉得这些东西很奇怪。
We get we get That stuff's weird.
我们可以聊聊这个，因为我和朋友威尔做了一次深入研究，从那以后，这些事情中有太多异常，让我无法客观地认为它们就是人们声称的那样。
We can talk about that because I went I I I did a deep dive with my friend Will, and from there there is there is too much amok going on with these things for me to for me to objectively say that they are what people are claiming them to be.
这张图片中有太多问题了。
There there's just there's too much wrong with this with the picture.
没错。
Right.
首先，很多都是假的。
Well, first of all, a lot of them are fake.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
哦，
Oh,
是的。
yeah.
很多是人们用各种动物骨头拼凑出来的
A lot of them, people have seemingly created with a bunch of different animal bones
还有人类的骨头。
And human bones.
还有人类的骨头，然后拼凑在一起。
And human bones and pieced them together.
但还有一些奇怪的。
But then there's the weird ones.
你知道的？
You know?
有一些奇怪的木乃伊，呈胎儿姿势，你能看到一些在人体中根本不存在的结构，但它们却完整地带有肌腱和韧带，有些里面甚至还有蛋。
There's the weird ones that are mummified, and they're in the fetal position, and you see a structure structure that doesn't exist in the human body, but it's complete with tendons and ligaments, and some of them have eggs inside of them.
乔，我真的跟你说，老兄。
That Joe, I'm telling you, man.
我看了看。
I look.
我想相信。
I want to believe.
你呢
Do you
觉得这是胡说八道吗？
think it's bullshit?
我觉得这更接近胡说八道，而不是
I think it is much closer to bullshit than it is
全部都是吗？
All of them?
现实。
Reality.
我认为我们这里面对的是真实存在的古代人类。
I think what we're dealing with here are real human beings from the past.
他们是古代人，被拼接起来的。
They are ancient that have been put together.
威尔与一些顶尖专家合作，在这方面做出了惊人的工作，我指的是该领域最顶尖的人物。
Will from incredible history has done some amazing work with some amazing specialists that I mean, people at the top of their field on this stuff.
看着X光片和DICOM文件，指出切割痕迹，指出所做的切口，指出为什么有些地方说不通。
Looking at the x rays and the dicom files and calling out calling out cuts, calling out incisions that were made, calling out why things don't make sense.
对我来说，我之所以发布上一个关于纳斯卡木乃伊的视频，是因为还存在另一种说法，涉及资金来源以及谁在通过这些事物牟利。
And for me, the reason I put out my last video on the NASCA mummies is because there's this whole other narrative too of where the money is, who's making money off of these things.
而且我认为
And and I think that
那些小木乃伊能用来赚钱吗？
Is there money being made off those little mummies?
哦。
Oh.
我本来想请。
I was gonna Please.
是的。
Yeah.
让我。
Let let me
你有什么发现吗？
You got something?
是的。
Yeah.
我记得你，但我忘了你刚才在和谁说话。
So I remember you I forget who you're talking to.
可能是杰西·迈克尔斯。
It may it might have been Jesse Michaels.
但我记得你说过，你知道，如果这些是假的，它们也算是最伟大的艺术项目之一。
But I remember you saying, you know, if the these are one of the greatest art projects if they were fake.
对吧？
Right?
好吧，如果你往右滑一下，这就是那些
Well, if you just scroll to the right here, this is what the
这一个真够傻的。
That's a goofy one.
是的。
Yeah.
但那就是他们在卖的东西。
But that's what the was selling.
那个卖这些东西的人亲自发给了我。
He sent that to me personally, the the guy selling these things.
这些傻乎乎的，是的。
These goofy ass Yeah.
给在家的人看。
For people at home.
你看不见吗？
You can't see it?
上面有一个文件夹，里面有那些照片。
There there's a folder on there that has the pictures
这些
in the These
这些是照片。
are the photos.
但那个女性角色，是在玛丽亚里面的那个，是哪一个？
But what is the one that is the female that's in the Maria.
它们是这么叫的吗？
Is that what they're called?
是的。
Yeah.
玛丽亚是其中之一。
Maria is one of them.
我是说，威尔请了威廉·莫里森医生、普罗克特医生和威尔逊医生。
I mean, so Will had on doctor William Morrison and doctor Proctor, doctor Wilson.
我是说，就像，这些领域的顶尖专家在分析这些东西，
I mean, like, people in the in the in the top of their in the top of their field analyzing these things and
这这真是假得不能再假了。
This is this is what's fake as fuck.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
各位，这个你们可以花一万五千美元买到。
Everybody, you can get this for $15,000.
顺便说一下，这些都是直接从华克罗人那里找到的。
This has come this comes directly from the Huaquero finding these things, by the way.
是的。
Yeah.
我搞了个小小的卧底行动，想看看能从他那里套出什么来。
I I I did it like a little undercover thing trying to see what I could lure out of him.
所以这对我来说并没有特别的说服力。
Is so this is not particularly compelling to me.
但它属于同一类，来自同一个地方。
But But it's in the same it's in the same class coming from the same place.
据说，同一群人正在把这些东西提供给那些人。
Supposedly, the same group of people are providing these things to the yeah.
这就在生态博物馆里。
This is in this is in the Eco Museum.
这些东西就存放在那里。
This is where they're housed.
蒙特塞拉特？
Montserrat?
那就是蒙特塞拉特吗？
Is that what the Montserrat.
是的。
Yeah.
蒙特塞拉特？
Montserrat?
所以这些，像之前说的，对我来说没什么吸引力。
So these are, like, again, these are not that compelling to me.
小的那些，没有。
The small ones, no.
大的那些，哦天啊，大的那些倒是。
The big one so the big ones, though, are gosh.
他们不断推出新的标本。
They they they keep coming out with new specimen.
有一个新的，叫安东尼奥，是个少年，只是脚不一样。
There's a new one, Antonio, who's a teenage boy except for his feet.
脚部患有关节炎，这表明他们把另一个标本的脚骨装在了这个东西上。
Feet are have arthritis in them, and and which indicates that they put the foot bones of another specimen on on this thing.
现在这些医生们做了什么，你看。
Now what what these doctors have done look.
关键点在这里。
And here's the thing.
我的意思是，我想说清楚。
I mean, wanna I wanted to be clear.
我当然再乐意不过了。
I would love nothing more than Of course.
秘鲁成为某些新物种的热点地区。
Peru to be the hot spot of of of some new species.
我认为我们并不孤单。
I I don't think we're alone.
我认为我们还没有识别出所有物种。
I don't think we've identified every species.
但我也不会押注这些物品会是真品。
But also, I'm not I'm not putting my money on these things coming out as authentic.
我认为它们是用真正的骨头制作的，这就是为什么能得出这些年代数据。
I think they have been used with authentic bones, which is why they're getting the dates.
我觉得这家伙，我真的深入研究过这个问题。
I think that dude, I I I I did a deep dive on this.
请往下说。
Please go down.
请随意。
Feel free.
告诉我。
Tell me.
告诉我你发现了什么。
Tell me what you found out.
我本来不打算拍这个视频的，但花了好几天熬夜做这项研究后，我实在无法不拍。
I initially wasn't gonna make the video I did, but after spending days staying up doing this research, I just I I I I couldn't not do it.
我还看了关于这个话题的整个Gaia系列，结果发现自己不知不觉被那种‘可能吧’的说法吸引住了。
And I found that like, I even watched the whole Gaia series on this stuff, and and I found myself, like, getting entranced by the like, maybe.
可能吧。
Maybe.
然后，没错。
And then Right.
而且，把这些内容发布出来的真正目的，就是想说：自己做判断，但别只接受这些幻想。
And then also watching the whole reason of of putting this stuff out there is like, look, make your own decision, but don't just take in the fantasy.
也要考虑其他可能性，做出决定前掌握所有信息。
Take in the the other possibilities too, and and just have all the information before you make your decision.
显然，我们知道其中一些是假的。
Well, clearly, we know some of them are fake.
很明显。
Clearly.
很明显。
Clearly.
你知道吗？
You know?
就连像我这样非常渴望相信的人也是如此，还有过去对应的艺术作品，那些三趾三指的怪异艺术品。
Even people like me who want so desperately to believe and it's also the the corresponding artwork from the past, the three toed, three fingered artwork, which is weird.
那确实很奇怪。
That is that is weird.
而且我在那些偏远地区看到了一些地质符号，你知道的，还有詹姆斯·福克斯和巴西事件那整件事。
And I saw some of those geo geo glyphs down there in the middle of nowhere, you know, these and so and then the whole thing with, you know, the with James Fox and the the Brazil incident and that thing.
你知道吗？
You know?
三指现象在历史上是个奇怪的事情。
The the three fingered thing is a weird thing in history.
关于这些骨骼，我得推荐你看看一些专家分析这些文件的视频。
With these bones, I mean, I'm gonna have to point you to some of some of the videos that that these specialists have come out analyzing the the files.
但真正关键的是现在正在发生的事情。
So but where where the money is is exactly what's happening now.
我们有这种可能性。
It it's it's we have this possibility.
我们要为此做一档节目。
We're gonna make a show about it.
我们要推出这个新东西。
We're gonna put out this new thing.
这事儿很深啊，乔。
We're gonna it goes it goes deep, Joe.
好的。
Okay.
那些目前正在验证纳斯卡木乃伊的医生和专家，过去二十年来一直同属一个团队，验证过其他物种和标本，声称它们是外星人混血儿，说的都是同一件事。我的整个视频里，我就只是点头。
The the same doctors, the same specialists that are verifying currently the NASCA mummies have been on the same team for the past twenty years verifying other species and specimens that they've alien hybrids and say the same peep literally, my whole video, I'm just like Mhmm.
这是他在2007年说的。
This is what he said in twenty two thousand seven.
这是他在2012年对这个假货所说的话。
This is what he said about this fake thing in 2012.
这是他在2017年关于这个假货的说法。
This is what he said about the fake thing in 2017.
我把它们放在一起，你会发现，这完全是同一个该死的叙事。
And I put it back to back, so you it's the same fucking narrative.
是同一群人。
Same people.
是同一群人，同一个叙事。
It's the same people, the same narrative.
所以你觉得这种造假手段变得更加复杂了吗？
And so you think that the construction has just gotten more sophisticated?
百分之百。
100%.
百分之百，他们一直在学习。
100 per they learn.
那最主要的手段是什么？
What is that the the major one?
玛丽亚和蒙塞拉特。
Maria and and Montserrat.
好吧，我们来找找蒙塞拉特，看看杰西·迈克尔的相关内容，因为他曾去那里调查过他们。
Well, look at let's find Montserrat and see see the Jesse Michael stuff because he went down there and looked at them.
他们对尸体进行了扫描。
They did scans on the bodies.
而且
And
然后他们如果我有链接，我想是莫里森医生在谈论蒙塞拉特的脚，他脚的X光片，并指出那就在电子表格上。
And then they if I have I have a link to I think it's doctor Morrison talking about Montserrat's feet, the the X rays of of his feet and pointing out that's that's on the spreadsheet.
让我们看看那个。
Let's see that.
我想看看那个。
I'd like to see that.
所以你认为这些是近期用旧骨头伪造的吗？
So do you think that these are recent creations of old bones?
就是这样吗？
Is that what it is?
就是这样
That's what
我觉得是。
I think.
好的。
Okay.
你觉得他们是怎么办到的？
And how do you think they did it?
有什么推测吗？
Is there any speculation?
我觉得是这样的，所以这里有
I think that so there are So here's the
我打断一下。
I'm a cut them off.
那是什么，吉米？
What's that, Jimmy?
只是
Just
问他们一个问题。
ask them a question.
我打断了他们。
I cut them off.
哦。
Oh.
你觉得他们是怎么办到的？
How did you think they did it?
你觉得他们是怎么办到的？
How do you think they did it?
嗯，我觉得他们把标本制作技术练得非常好了。
Well, I think that they I think they've gotten very good with taxidermy.
对。
Right.
就像，因为我们之前见过，比如把猫头鹰和鬣蜥拼在一起。
Like, because we've seen that before where you take, like, an owl and you attach it to an iguana.
事实上，我做研究时发现，2017年真有这么个恶魔精灵的东西。
In fact, in in the research I did, there was this, dude, there was this demon fairy thing in 2017.
如果你要翻看我的视频，咱们就从这个开始吧。
If if you wanna pull up my my video Let's start
就从这个开始。
with this.
就从这个开始。
Let's start with this.
我们稍后会说到
We'll get to
那个恶魔精灵的东西马上就能看到。
the demon fairy thing soon.
说到
Talk to
你
you.
这玩意儿太疯狂了
Shit is wild.
元
Meta.
好的。
Okay.
这是从一个可用的表面扫描中获取的。
This is a from a surface scan that was available.
我进去稍微处理了一下模糊的部分，以便能突出骨骼结构。
And I went in and just kinda removed some of the fuzziness so that I could highlight the bones.
还有一点，你再次注意到的是关节之间有大量空隙。
And one of the things, again, that you notice is that the joints have a lot of spacing between them.
这些关节并没有接触，因此是脱位的。
These are not joints that are in contact, so they're dislocated.
现在这里的主要部分是中央区域，楔骨和骰骨通常与五个跖骨相连。
Now the main the main part here this the central area where the cuneiforms are in the cuboid, those articulate with five metatarsals normally.
按照这些字母的标注方式，A对应大脚趾，E对应小脚趾。
The way the the way these are lettered, a would go with the big toe and e would go with the little toe.
而且，就像在玛丽亚的情况中一样，这些骨头缺失了，但关节也没有正确对齐。
And, again, just like in Maria, those are missing, but the joints are not lined up properly.
关节的形状与楔骨或骰骨上对应的骨骼并不匹配。
The the shapes of the joints don't don't go with the matching bone on the cuneiforms of the cuboid.
这正是我在CT扫描中看到的情况。
That's exactly what I was seeing in CT.
所以，跖骨连接处的任何关节都没有合理对应，有些骨头甚至根本没有接触到任何关节面。
So none of the articulations of the the metatarsal junction really made any sense, and some of the bones didn't even meet an articular surface at all.
这立刻引起了我的注意，因为我的第一个疑问是：这样的脚怎么可能具有功能？
So that jumped out to me immediately because then my first question goes to how would that even be a functional foot?
所以蒙特塞拉特，那是
So Montserrat, that's
所以那就是
So that's
为什么蒙特塞拉特有肌腱？
why does Montserrat have tendons?
点击那个
Click on that.
继续播放一小段。
Keep it going a little bit.
我以为我看到了抬高切除的位置。
Where I thought I saw the raise resection.
因为人们当时还在讨论肌腱等组织是否完好。
Because people were talking about there still being tendons and stuff intact.
我同意其中一些跖骨正如普罗克特医生指出的那样处于正确位置，但另一些则完全缺失了。
And I would agree that some of those metatarsals are, as doctor Proctor pointed out, in the correct position, but then some are just missing.
所以如果你想提升这种假象，其中一种方法就是进行抬高切除术，这本质上是一种功能保留手术——如果你的掌骨或跖骨受损，医生会移除那块骨头，然后重新排列你的手指、脚趾以及剩余的掌骨，以保持肢体的功能。
So if you wanted to elevate the illusion, one of the ways you could do that would be by performing a raised resection, and essentially that's a function conserving surgery where if you've had damage to your metacarpals or your metatarsals, they'll remove that metacarpal or metatarsal and kind of rearrange your fingers or your toes and the remaining metacarpals to keep your limb functioning.
因此蒙塞拉特的脚部情况略有不同，我认为他们可能对她使用了更复杂的手术程序，而玛丽亚的脚在我看来更像是手工制作的艺术品。
So her feet Montserrat's feet were just a little bit different where I think they might have used more complex procedure like that versus Maria where her feet just looked more like arts and crafts to my eye.
那么也就是说，如果这些都是骗局的话，玛丽亚就属于这种情况。嗯。
So and that's the so Maria came up if these things are are hoaxes Mhmm.
如果我们从这个角度考虑，还能明显看出幕后制作工艺存在一个演进过程。
There is also if we're just going with that angle, there's a clear evolution of the work that goes into them behind the scenes.
比如，那个是在第一个之后出来的。
Like, that one came out after the first one.
第一个被指出了很多问题。
The first one got called out on a whole bunch
方面的问题。
of things.
突然之间，下一个版本就没有同样的问题了。
All of a sudden, the next iteration doesn't have the same issues.
哦，对。
Oh, right.
他们在改进。
They're correcting.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，这个，其实我忘了。
And so and that and that's actually I forget.
有个考古学家在X上说过。
There was there was an archaeologist on X.
他说，在假古董领域，这非常常见。
He said that's very common in in the world of fake antiquities.
比如，他们会学习。
Like, they learn.
一旦被指出问题，他们就会想办法改进陶器之类的。
Once they get called out on something, they'll figure out how to make the pottery better or something like that.
这东西能赚很多钱吗？
Is there a lot of money in this stuff?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是， apparently
I mean, apparently
钱是从哪里来的？
Where's the money coming from?
它是怎么
How does it
对我来说，这根本不是在销售中赚到的。
For me, it's it's not even in in the it's not in the sale.
这些物品带来的最大收益并不来自销售。
The the most money coming from this is not in the sale of these things.
而是来自与之相关的展览。
It's in the shows that come from it.
是在剧集本身。
It's it's in the series.
在于订阅观看下一季，他们最终会在那里揭示真相。
It's in the subscriptions to get to the next season where they're going to tell finally reveal the truth about it.
幕后有很多资金流动，这正是我深入调查的一部分，比如追踪资金去向。
There's a lot of be money being made in the background with and and that's part of the deep dive I went on, like, following the money.
那你认为是谁在制作这些东西？
So who do you think is making them?
你有什么理论吗？
Do you have a theory?
我相信实际上它出现在我的视频和威尔的一个视频里。
I believe that there's actually it was in it was in my video and one of Will's videos.
有一个盗墓贼，一个举报人盗墓贼，他是这个团队的一员，他分享了他是如何为马里奥——就是那个主要人物——搞到东西的。
There was a a grave robber, a whistleblower grave robber who was part of this team, and he shares how he was getting stuff for Mario, like the main guy.
我觉得肯定有一个专家团队在负责这些东西。
I there's gotta be a team of specialists working on this stuff.
而且，我的意思是，钱被投入到了制作这些东西上，因为钱会从这里流回来。
And, I mean, money went into money went into making these things because money's gonna come from it.
我的意思是，这看起来花了不少钱啊。
I mean, that's Seems like a lot of money, though.
是的。
Yeah.
但你可能会觉得，这些东西迟早会垮掉。
But what you you would think that that would kinda fall apart.
我会这么觉得。
I would.
我觉得它们已经在瓦解了。
I would think that It is falling apart.
但它们正在被扫描中。
But it is under scans.
但我会说，总有人会举报别人。
But I would I would say, like, someone would rat somebody out.
比如，这些人都是些毫无道德底线的人。
Like, these are unscrupulous people.
这也是我决定制作这个视频的部分原因，而且很多人对此的反驳是，哦，你不信任拉丁美洲的医生之类的，根本不是这样。
That's part of the reason I also decided to make this video, and and a lot of the pushback on this stuff is like, oh, you don't you don't trust, you know, Latin American doctors or any no.
不是那样的。
It's it's it's not that.
是因为来自秘鲁的拉丁美洲医生和记者们不敢谈论这些事情，因为围绕这个话题，当地可能会发生暴力事件。
It's the Latin American doctors from Peru and and journalists from they're afraid to talk about this stuff because things can get violent down there surrounding this topic.
一篇2012年的文章提到一具木乃伊被盗，接着谈到它位于颅骨底部。
Article from 2012 about a mummy being stolen, and it goes on to talk about there's a it's at the bottom of skull.
ECA黑手党。
The ECA mafia.
是的。
Yeah.
确实存在一个黑手党组织。
There's a mafia.
ECA黑手党。
The ECA mafia.
事实上，是那个黑手党。
And in fact, the guy mafia.
那个叫马里奥的人，你看吧。
The guy Mario who There you go.
官员们警告称，存在一个专门从事走私贸易的黑手党，其网络遍及南美洲和欧洲，当时每年被盗的考古文物价值高达1800万美元。
Officials have warned about the existence of a mafia dedicated to the trade with links throughout Southern America and Europe, and at the time, it was $18,000,000 a year in stolen archaeological artifacts.
秘鲁估计这些文物正被运出国外。
Peru estimated it was being taken out of the country.
所以这一切都是流向那些希望在家中收藏这些文物的富裕国家的人吗？
So this is all going to, like, wealthy people in other countries that wanna have these artifacts in their homes?
是的。
Yeah.
而且我见过
And I've seen
一些美国买家的短信记录。
the text messages with some of the American buyers.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
所以这些人就像说：来吧，进我的书房。
So these guys are just like, come on into my den.
我给你看看一具木乃伊。
I'll show you a mummy.
我具体说的那些是挂毯，实际上是我曾在米拉弗洛雷斯的手工艺市场遇到的那个人。
The the what I'm talking about specifically was tapestries, and and it was actually the guy I met in the Artesanalis in Mira Flores.
他给我看了视频。
And and he showed me video.
他对我说话非常坦诚。
He was very open with me.
他给我看了视频，因为买家想了解物品的来源。
He showed me videos of because the the buyers wanna see provenance.
买家想看到他们从地下挖出文物的过程。
The buyers wanna see them pulling the the artifacts out of the ground.
是的。
Right.
所以他们只是把东西埋起来，然后
So they just bury them, and
然后他们只是——不，不是这样的。
then they just Well, no.
我的意思是
I mean
这才能把东西卖出去。
that sells the stuff.
木乃伊众筹项目让考古学家愤慨。
Mummy crowdfunder leaves archaeologists fuming.
所以伦敦有个人在卖这些东西？
So there's a guy in London that's selling this stuff?
伦敦的维克托·温博物馆。
The Victor Wind Museum in London.
一个专门展示逝者的展柜。
Cabinet dedicated to dead people.
他们试图弄到一具秘鲁的木乃伊。
And they were trying to get a mummy from Peru.
哇。
Wow.
所以这是
So it's
你觉得那些拉长的头骨是怎么回事？
What do you think is going on with the skulls, the elongated skulls?
如果你是杰米，我有个是的。
If you Jamie, I have a Yeah.
但我得到了。
But I got it.
我觉得这是我的一个。
I think that it's one I
找到了。
found.
这有一个。
Here's one.
你找到这个了？
You found that one?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
这是我遇到过的三个中的一个。
That's one of three I've come across.
据说，当你是孩子的时候，头骨的形态会有所不同，那个叫什么来着？
Now there supposedly, there's a difference in the way the the skull, you know, when you're a child, what is it called?
矢状缝。
The the sagittal sutures.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我找到的一些例子中，所有我遇到的三个细长头骨都具有矢状缝。
I found some without the I I I every elongated skull that I've the three I've come across all had the sagittal all had that suture.
就像正常人类一样。
Like a normal human does.
就像正常人类一样。
Like a normal human.
所以这些是由于在儿童发育期间用压板压迫头部造成的。
So these would be from pressing boards on the child's head when they're in development.
是的。
Yeah.
捆绑。
Binding.
是的。
Yeah.
但问题是为什么要这么做呢？
But then the question is why would you do that?
而且，我的意思是，我倾向于认为这不是凭空想出来的。
And, I mean, I air air on the side of you don't just come up with that.
你在试图模仿某种东西。
You're trying to imitate something.
没错。
Right.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以，然后你在埃及的象形文字之类的东西中也能看到它。
And so that that's and then you see it in Egypt and the hieroglyphs and stuff.
所以我觉得，我们确实会仅凭一块骨头碎片就给其他物种贴上标签。
So I I I do think like there is you know, there there's we've we've labeled things other species with just a bone fragment.
你知道的？
You know?
我觉得这些地方到处都是，如果有人愿意投入资金去研究这些，你可能会发现它们是独立的物种，因为这些东西明明就在那里啊。
I'm like, there there's there's deserts of these things, and and I think that if the right study went to them, you might have a separate species if if you put the money towards studying this stuff because it it's all out there, man.
都是独立的人类分支吗？
It's all out Like a separate branch of the human species?
有可能。
Possibly.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
这说得通。
Which makes sense.
我是说，他们一直在发现不同的分支。
I mean, they're finding separate branches all the time.
一直都有。
All the time.
丹尼索瓦人，你知道的，就是过去二十年里他们发现的所有这些不同的分支。
The Denisovans, you know, all the all these different ones that they've found within the last twenty years.
是的。
Yeah.
而且可能存在头部更大、更长的某种生物。
And there could be something with a larger head, an elongated head.
是的。
Yep.
这就是——我对骨骼学什么的了解不够，嗯。
And that's the I I don't know enough about osteo whatever to Mhmm.
深入探讨这个问题，但我的意思是，要么是整个文化都在这么做，要么就是数量太多了，不可能只是某种精英阶层的做法，我认为。
Go in-depth about it, but it I mean, either you had whole cultures just doing this or there's there's too many of them for it to have just been kinda some elitist practice, I I think.
而且这还是一个非常奇怪的习俗。
And a bizarre practice at that.
比如，你为什么要对孩子的头做这种事？
Like, why would you wanna do that to your kid's head?
是的。
Yeah.
显然，至少最早的人群中，并没有人把自己的头弄成这样。
When clearly, it's probably not been done to your head, at least the first people.
你们当时想模仿什么呢？
Like, what were you trying to imitate?
有。
There
我忘了是谁告诉我的。
I forget who told me this.
我记得好像是威尔告诉我的。
There is some I think Will told me this.
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