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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
晚上是乔·罗根播客，全天都是。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
好的。
Alright.
很高兴认识您，先生。
Nice to meet you, sir.
充满刺激的思维。
Stimulated mind.
为你的大脑做几项面向未来的保护措施。
A few future proof for your brain.
这可能吗？
Is that possible?
面向未来？为什么我不能这么说？
Future proof why can't I say that?
我已经得了痴呆症了。
I already I already have dementia.
为你的大脑抵御痴呆症，无论什么年龄都保持敏锐。
Future proof your brain from dementia and stay sharp at any age.
首先，是什么促使你写这本书？
What first of all, what prompted you to write this?
我长期致力于与大脑相关的多个领域，比如治疗新生儿脑损伤、治疗甚至预防某些创伤性脑损伤和脑震荡，研究影响长期认知衰退和痴呆的因素，同时也与精英职业运动员，特别是F1车手合作，帮助他们尽可能长时间地保持巅峰状态。
So I've spent a long time working in a whole range of different spheres related to the brain, how to treat newborn brain injury, how to treat and maybe even prevent certain traumatic brain injuries and concussions, looking at what affects long term cognitive decline and dementia, as well as working with elite, professional athletes, particularly Formula One drivers, trying to help them, you know, stay on top of their game for as long as possible.
在所有这些不同领域中，我注意到大脑 thriving 所依赖的一些核心要素，这些要素对于认知功能的发展或维持都是必需的，而人们可以在日常生活中应用这些方法，提升当下的专注力和幸福感，长期来看，则能降低患痴呆症的风险。
And I saw across all those different areas, there are these core things that the brain seems to thrive on that are required either for development or maintenance of cognitive function, and these are things that people can apply to themselves on a day to day basis, improve their focus, and well-being now, and then long term, that translates to a lower risk of dementia.
那么，痴呆是遗传问题，还是脑萎缩的结果？
So is dementia an is it is a is it a genetic thing, or is it a function of atrophy?
是这两者的结合吗？
Is it a combination of those things?
是这两者的结合。
It's a combination of those things.
当然，它有遗传成分。
Certainly, there's a genetic component.
也许我先宏观来看一下，痴呆到底是什么？
So maybe I will zoom out to start with and just think about, like, what is dementia?
痴呆是一种临床诊断，指认知功能严重退化，以至于无法日常自理。
Dementia is the clinical diagnosis of losing so much cognitive function that you're not able to take care of yourself on a day to day basis.
痴呆有几种不同类型。
There are several different types of dementia.
最常见的是阿尔茨海默病。
The most common is Alzheimer's disease.
这大约占了百分之六十到八十的痴呆病例。
That's something like sixty to eighty percent of cases of dementia.
接下来最常见的是血管性痴呆，约占百分之十到二十。
The next most common is vascular dementia, something like ten to twenty percent.
还有其他类型，如额颞叶痴呆、路易体痴呆，以及帕金森病引起的痴呆。
And then there are others like frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, dementia you get with Parkinson's disease.
但前两种类型，约占百分之七十到九十的痴呆病例，都直接与生活方式和环境相关。
But those first two, something like seventy to ninety percent of dementias, they are directly tied to lifestyle and the environment.
目前估计，百分之四十五甚至高达百分之七十以上的痴呆病例是可以预防的，其中大多数属于这两类。
And right now, it's estimated that somewhere between forty five and maybe even seventy or more percent of dementias are preventable, and most of those fall into those two categories.
确实存在遗传因素。
There is a genetic component.
阿尔茨海默病大致分为两种类型。
So, Alzheimer's disease has two broad types.
有一种早发性阿尔茨海默病，由单个基因的单一突变引起，比如淀粉样前体蛋白基因或早老素基因。
There's early onset Alzheimer's disease that's caused by a single mutation in a single gene, something like the amyloid precursor protein gene or one of the presenilin genes.
这些人会在30到50岁之间患上阿尔茨海默病。
Those people get Alzheimer's in their 30s to 50s.
病情发展往往可预测且相当迅速，但这种情况只占阿尔茨海默病的一%左右。
It's a very predictable and quite rapid decline sometimes, but that's maybe one percent of Alzheimer's.
绝大多数情况下，当我们想到阿尔茨海默病时，都会认为这是一种与年龄相关的痴呆，而它更多与环境因素相关。
The vast majority, like, when we think about Alzheimer's, we think about an age related dementia, and this is much more related to the environment.
因此，遗传因素确实存在。
So there is a genetic component.
你可能听说过APOE4。
You might have heard of APOE four.
是的。
Yeah.
APOE，即载脂蛋白E，有三种类型：E2、E3和E4。
So you can have three different flavors of APOE, apolipoprotein e, two, three, and four.
每个人会继承两个拷贝。
You get two copies.
哪个版本会让你更容易患上慢性创伤性脑病？
Which is the one that makes you more more likely to get CTE?
是二号吗？
Is that two?
不是。
No.
是四号。
So that's that's that's four
也是。
as well.
是的。
Yeah.
四号基本上会放大大脑中的某些炎症反应。
So four essentially has an effect of amplifying certain inflammatory effects in the brain.
这可能就是它使慢性创伤性脑病更严重的原因。
That's probably why it makes CTE worse.
它让你更容易患上慢性创伤性脑病，因为如果你反复受到撞击、反复受伤，就会加剧或恶化这种炎症反应。
It makes it more likely for you to get CTE, because if you're if you're getting repetitive impacts, repetitive injuries, then it sort of exacerbates or makes that inflammatory response worse.
但当你从阿尔茨海默病的角度来看，如果你携带一个APOE4基因副本，你患阿尔茨海默病的风险会增加两到六倍。
But when you think about that in terms of Alzheimer's, if you have one copy of of APOE four, your increase your risk of Alzheimer's is increased by sort of two to six times.
如果你携带两个副本，风险会增加六到二十倍，具体取决于如何解读数据——但所有数据都表明，APOE4是一种风险倍增因子。
If you have two copies, it's six to 20 times, depending on how you look But at all the data suggest that ApoE four is a risk multiplier.
对吧？
Right?
所以，并不是说你只要携带一个APOE4基因副本，就一定会得痴呆。
So it's not that if you have a copy of ApoE four, you're definitely gonna get dementia.
而是说，在现代环境背景下，痴呆的风险或致病因素会被放大，比如过量饮酒、缺乏运动、饮食质量差等。
It's that in the setting, particularly of the modern environment, risks of dementia or risk factors for dementia are amplified, like excessive alcohol intake, physical inactivity, low quality diet.
因此，这也意味着，如果你能改善这些风险因素，获益会更大。
So that also means that if you have if you if you then address those risk factors, you have greater benefit.
对吧？
Right?
因为你正在抵消一部分额外的风险。
Because you're offsetting some of that additional risk.
所以无论从遗传角度如何看待痴呆症，家族史也是一个因素。
So however you look at dementia from a genetic standpoint, and it can also be family history.
对吧？
Right?
如果你有痴呆症的家族史，你患痴呆症的风险会增加。
If you have a family history of dementia, you have an increased risk of dementia.
但家族史所涉及的很多内容是共享的环境和生活方式。
But a lot of what comes with family history is shared environment and shared lifestyle.
对吧？
Right?
你的饮食、睡眠和活动方式都和你的父母一样。
You eat and sleep and move like your parents did.
因此，如果他们的生活方式增加了他们患痴呆症的风险，你也会继承这些风险。
And so if they had a lifestyle that might increase their risk of dementia, you get that as well.
所以，即使你确实有更高的遗传风险，也可以通过生活方式和其他环境因素抵消其中很大一部分。
So even if you do have an increased genetic risk, you can offset a large part of that through lifestyle and other environmental factors.
好的。
Okay.
所以对一些人来说，虽然有更高的遗传风险，但那些没有这种遗传风险的人，是否仍然可能因为脑萎缩或久坐不动、完全缺乏刺激而患上痴呆？
So for some people, there's an increased genetic risk, but do some people who do not have this increased genetic risk, do they still have a possibility of getting dementia just from atrophy or just from sedentary lifestyle, no stimulation whatsoever?
是的。
Yes.
我们通常会说，
So the the kind of the way we would
并不是所有携带APOE4基因的人都会患上阿尔茨海默病，而大多数阿尔茨海默病患者其实并不携带APOE4基因。
say it is that not everybody who has APOE four gets Alzheimer's, and most people who have Alzheimer's do not have APOE four.
嗯。
So Mhmm.
当然。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
所以这就像其他一切一样吗？
So is it just like everything else?
比如，肌肉不使用就会萎缩，骨骼缺乏负重也会变弱。
Like, muscles atrophy, your bones weaken when you don't put load on them.
就是这样吗？
Is that what it is?
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我书中的核心观点。
So that's like the core thesis of my book.
对吧？
Right?
这本书叫《受刺激的大脑》。
It's called the stimulated mind.
正因为如此。
For that reason.
我认为这个标题有点挑衅性，因为在现代世界中，我们处于过度刺激的状态。
I think that in the and the and the title is slightly provocative because in the modern world, we are Hyperstimulated.
过度刺激。
Overstimulated.
这太荒谬了。
That's nonsense.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我们同时处于过度刺激和刺激不足的状态。
So we're overstimulated and understimulated at the same time.
对。
Right.
我们接收了大量信息，但并没有进行任何思考。
We're getting a lot of input, but we're not doing any calculations.
是的
Yeah.
我们没有形成新的想法。
We're not formulating new ideas.
我们没有创造力。
We're not being creative.
我们没有解决问题。
We're not problem solving.
没错。
Exactly.
我们只是被一堆废话淹没。
We're just being inundated with nonsense.
没错。
Exactly.
是的
Yeah.
所以，身体内任何组织的功能，对吧？你提到了肌肉、骨骼、肝脏、免疫系统，它们的功能都取决于你施加给它们的刺激。
So the the function of any tissue in the body, right, you mentioned the muscles, the bones, the liver, the immune system, their function is dependent on the stimulus you apply to them.
对吗？
Right?
没错。
Right.
大脑也是如此。
And so the brain is exactly the same.
如果你想让大脑中的功能和神经网络表现良好，就需要挑战它们，以提升其能力。
And if you want functions and networks in the brain to function to perform well, you need to challenge them in order to enhance capacity
在其中。
in them.
你觉得你需要
Do think you need
通过时不时喝酒来保持肝脏健康吗？
to keep your liver working healthy by drinking every now and then?
所以，举个例子，如果你大量饮酒，你的肝脏就会更擅长代谢酒精。
So the it it's the example of, yes, if you drink a lot of alcohol, your your liver gets better at metabolizing alcohol.
所以这在某种程度上印证了这个观点，但并不意味着酒精的存在是为了让肝脏保持健康。
So it kind of it proves the point, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that the alcohol is is there to keep your liver healthy.
大概不是。
Probably not.
他们以前是不是对有肺部问题的人，会给他们香烟？
Didn't they used to do that with people that had if they had lung problems, they would give them cigarettes?
是的。
Yeah.
比如哮喘患者？
Like people with asthma?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
结果并不太好。
And that didn't turn out so great.
这个理论本来是不错的，
The the theory was okay,
但我认为他们应该只是进行深呼吸。
but I think they should've just been breathing heavy.
那样才是更好的应用方式。
That would've been a better application of that.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
因为这就像，你的肺根本不是用来折磨你的过滤器。
Because it's just like, you don't wanna tore your lungs aren't a filter to, like, torture you.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当你开始研究这个时，你身边有亲人患有阿尔茨海默病吗？
So when you started studying this, do
还是这只是你感兴趣的学术领域？
you have someone close to you that has Alzheimer's,
是的。
or is it just a a field of study that you're interested in?
是的。
Yeah.
有两方面的原因。
There was two different things.
一方面，我最初专注于大脑在人生早期的发展，以及运动员的顶级认知表现。
One, I I focused initially on the brain early in life, and then your elite level cognitive performance in athletes.
你会看到这些事情是相互关联的——人生早期和人生过程中发生的事，会影响晚年的情况。嗯。
And you kind of see that these things sort of tie together, like what happens early in life, what happens during life affects what happens later in Mhmm.
但我也曾祖父死于痴呆症。
But I also had my grandfather died of dementia.
他是个酒鬼，患有酒精性脑萎缩和血管性痴呆的综合症状。
He he was an alcoholic, and he had a combination of alcoholic, you know, alcohol induced brain atrophy plus vascular dementia.
我真的很想知道现在的人们，这也是我对这个话题如此感兴趣的原因之一——我们刚才谈到的，人们被大量无意义的信息淹没，却没有任何能挑战思维的刺激。
I really wonder about people today, and this is one of the reasons why I was so interested in this because the what are we what we were just talking about before, that people are being oversaturated with nonsense but not stimulated in any way that challenges your mind.
我的意思是，如今这种状态是持续存在的。
I mean, this is constant state today.
更糟糕的是，很多人整天都在使用AI来解决所有问题，根本不再动脑思考。
And then on top of that, you've got a lot of people that are using AI throughout their day to solve all their problems where they don't think at all.
是的。
Yeah.
已经有一些研究显示，这会导致认知功能下降。
And there's been some studies on that that show that it's a decrease in cognitive function.
比如，当让他们真正动脑时，大脑的表现还不如他们使用AI之前。
Like, when they ask them to actually use their brain, the brain works less well than it did before they start ill.
所以你并不是在通过ChatGPT接受教育。
So you're not getting educated by chat GBT.
不。
No.
或者你所做的就是让AI替你思考。
Or any of these what you're doing is you're letting it think for you.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
所以，你可能想到的其中一项研究是麻省理工学院做的一个研究，他们让学生写论文。
So this one what maybe one of the studies you're thinking of was a study they did at MIT, and they had students write essays.
学生可以选择完全依靠自己脑海中的内容来写，或者使用谷歌搜索，或者使用大语言模型。
And they could either just write it using whatever they had in their head already, or using Google, or using an LLM.
研究发现，随着你获得的外部辅助越多——比如先用谷歌，然后是ChatGPT——大脑中与实际完成任务相关的网络活动就越少，学生之后的记忆效果也更差。
And what they showed was that as you increase the amount of, like, outside support you got, you know, Google and then, I think it was ChatGPT, then there was less activity in the brain networks associated with actually doing the task, and students remembered less well afterwards.
所以，这并不令人惊讶。
So, I mean, this isn't surprising.
一点也不。
Not at all.
你没有在动用你的大脑。
You're not using your brain.
因此，它并没有真正参与这项任务。
Therefore, it it doesn't engage in the task.
但有趣的是，他们发现了一种情况：一些之前自己写过论文的学生，后来又被要求在原有基础上使用ChatGPT进行修改。
But what's interesting is that they they found a version so, like, some of the students who had previously written that written written an essay just for themselves, then they asked them to go back and use ChatGPT on top.
他们发现，最终的成果更好了。
And what they found was that the final output was better.
所以，我们使用这些工具的正确方式，不是像大多数人那样直接让它们替我们完成所有工作——那样会导致技能退化，甚至可能让大脑的某些部分因缺乏使用而萎缩，而是把它们当作辅助工具。
So the way that we can use these tools rather than just asking it to do all the stuff for us, which is what most people are doing, and I think will cause skills and maybe even parts of the brain to atrophy because they're not being used, is we use them as orthotics.
就像它们可以扩展我们的能力一样。
Like, they can expand our capacities.
对吧？
Right?
你先自己试着全部写出来，然后再说：嘿。
You try writing it all first, and then you say, hey.
我错过了什么？
What did I miss?
我没想到什么？
What am I not thinking about?
对。
Right.
然后你可以在此基础上继续发展。
And you can kind of build on it from there.
这或许真的能激发你的思维
And that might perhaps actually stimulate your mind
去思考，
to think,
我怎么没想到这一点？
why didn't I think of that?
是的。
Yeah.
比如，下次我写段落时，我会考虑这些选项。
Like, next time I'm writing a paragraph, I'll consider these options.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以你真的必须完全投入你的大脑到这个过程中。
So you actually have to, like, fully engage your brain in that process.
是的。
Yeah.
但这样最终的结果可能会更好。
But then they might might the end result might be better.
嗯，这对我们来说完全是未知领域。
Well, the it's just such uncharted territory for us.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所有这些，尤其是社交媒体。
All this, the especially social media.
我的意思是，人们每天盯着自己的手八个小时，这完全是未知领域。
I mean, completely uncharted territory that people are staring at their hand for eight hours a day.
我的意思是，你实际上就是在做这个。
I mean, that's really what you're doing.
你盯着自己的手，通常希望——虽然大多失败——能获得一些真正让你兴奋、独特且改变你对事物看法的内容。
You're staring at your hand, and you're hoping, usually unsuccessfully, to get something that really excites you and something that's really unique and and changes your perspective on things.
我的意思是，也许当我每天使用社交媒体时，每天可能只有一回，我会遇到一些真正感兴趣并收藏的内容。
I mean, I think maybe when I was using social media every day, maybe once a day, I would get something that was really interested in that I would save.
我会想，哦，这其实挺有意思的。
I'd go, oh, that's actually interesting.
然后我会想，好吧。
And I would think, okay.
这会是个在播客里提出来的好话题。
That'd be a good subject to bring up on the podcast.
但其余时间，只是
But the rest of the time, it was just
废话。
horseshit.
算法的一部分，你知道的，我不是训练算法的专家，但算法的目标之一就是你不会一开始就看到所有完美或立即吸引你注意力的内容。
Well, part of the algorithm and this you know, I'm not an expert in training algorithms to do this, but part of the the the goal of the algorithm is that you don't get everything that is perfect or that will immediately capture your attention upfront.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为你希望它是随机的，而这种随机性中有一种策略，让你不停滑动。
Because you want it to be random, and there's like, method in the randomness that keeps you scrolling.
对。
Right.
因为最终，你会遇到那些小小的起伏，正是这些起伏让你继续下去。
Because eventually, you'll you'll you'll get those small bumps that then that then keep that keep keep you going.
但社交媒体特别有趣的一点是，它利用了我们作为社会性生物的特性。
But what's particularly interesting about social media is it leverages the fact that we are social beings.
因此，我们更重视被称为PRIME的信息——即声望高、群体内、道德感强和情绪化的信息。
So we prioritize information that is called we, the acronym is PRIME, prestigious, in group, moral, and emotional.
而在社交情境下，这种倾向更为明显。
And this is even greater in social context.
对吧？
Right?
因为我们试图了解自己的社交环境，以便在群体中生存并更具优势。
Because we are trying to learn about our social environment so that we can survive our group and be fitter.
因此，社交媒体让我们以为自己能获得这些信息，但实际上却提供完全相反的东西——本质上是孤立。
And so social media makes us think that we will get that information, whilst at the same time offering us the exact opposite, which is essentially isolation.
但它利用了人类大脑寻找社交信息和社交联系的渴望，却从不真正给予我们这些。
But it leverages that desire of the human brain to find this social information and this social connection whilst not giving us any of that.
而且，当你在表达想法时，如果没有来自他人的反馈，你可能会对别人说出最恶劣的话，比如在评论或短信里，因为你感觉不到对面是个活生生的人。
Also, without it getting any feedback from another human being while you're communicating ideas, So you could say the most horrible shit to people in a comment or a text message, and you don't think about it because it's like there's not a person there
是的。
Yeah.
不是就在你面前。
Not right in front of you.
对。
Yeah.
而且这种设计就像是一个反人性的设备。
And It's designed for, like it's like an anti human device.
太奇怪了。
Very weird.
但话说回来，如果你的目标是吸引注意力，它们确实做得非常成功。
But, I mean, if if your goal is to capture attention, they're doing a great job of it.
不仅仅是这样。
Well, not just that.
他们正在获取巨大的财富，同时也对政治、经济等各种领域产生了巨大的影响力。
They're acquiring enormous wealth and also enormous influence over the just all sorts of things, politics, economics.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，世界上一些最富有的公司，他们收集了一种我们从未想过会有价值的东西——数据。
I mean, some of the richest corporations in the world, they they gather a thing that we never thought of was valuable, which is data.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，当人们刚开始使用这些技术、刚开始使用互联网时，没人真正想到数据会成为世界上最重要的商品之一。
I mean, when we when people first started using these things, when people first started using the Internet, nobody really thought that data was going to be one of the biggest commodities in the world.
是的。
Yeah.
但现在，如果他们知道什么能吸引你的注意力、你愿意在什么上花钱，没错。
But now, if they know what captures your attention and what you'll spend money on and Right.
这正是最大限度榨取你价值的完美方式。
Like, that's a that's a perfect way to to get as much out of you as possible.
所以这个概念是为你的大脑做好未来准备。
So the concept is future proofing your brain.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，除了尽量避免使用社交媒体等很多东西之外，你认为人们应该做些什么来为未来做准备呢？
Like, what are the things that you think people should be doing to try to future proof the other than avoiding social media a lot of the stuff
我们在这里讨论的这些？
that we're talking about here?
所以我认为，每一种工具都有其可能的用途。
So I think, right, every every tool has a possible use.
比如，社交媒体。
So like, for instance, social media.
如果你能打造一个社交媒体，让你维持那些原本无法保持的联系，就像二十五年前Facebook最初的样子，只是发照片、和家人聊聊天。
If if you have crafted a social media that allows you to maintain connections that you wouldn't have otherwise, like the original version of Facebook as it existed twenty five years ago was just like posting pictures and you could like chat with some family members.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
所以如果你这样使用社交媒体，有研究表明，如果你使用包括社交媒体在内的在线工具，并且它增加了你原本不会有的沟通和联系，那可能是一种净收益。
So if you use social media like that, and there are studies that show that if you're using online tools, including social media, and it increases communication and connection beyond what you would have had otherwise, that can be a net benefit.
如果你只使用它并且它取代了面对面的真实人际联系，那么它就是净损失。
If it's all you use and it's replacing in person human connection, then it's then it's a net negative.
所以它也可能存在有益的方式。
So there can be ways that it could be beneficial.
而且，你知道，如果你的Instagram推送都是些在雪地里跑来跑去的可爱狗狗，就像我现在的大部分内容一样，对吧，那可以在完成认知要求高的任务之间，提供一个不错的五分钟休息时间。
And, you know, if your Instagram feed is just like cute dogs running around in the snow, which is what most of mine is right now, right, That can be a nice five minute break in between comp, like, cognitively demanding tasks.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
那样那样那样那样是可以的。
That's that's that's that's fine.
但当你考虑为大脑做好未来准备时，这种想法是存在一个不可预知的未来。
But when you think about future proofing your brain, this this idea that there is some unknowable future.
对吧？
Right?
我们不知道未来会是什么样子。
We don't know what the future's gonna look like.
但如果我们想在那个未来中生存，我们就需要良好的信息处理速度、决策能力、工作记忆，以及良好的情绪和社会技能。
But if we want to exist in that future, we're going to need good processing speed, good decision making skills, good working memory, good emotional and social skills.
对吧？
Right?
因此，为了维持这些能力，我们需要挑战和刺激它们。
And so, in order to maintain those, we need to challenge and stimulate them.
所以，我认为大多数人最重要的做法是去学习新的、具有挑战性且常常是创造性的技能，有很多证据支持创意艺术和音乐。
So, the I think the most important thing most people can do is think about new challenging and often creative skills, and there's a lot of evidence for creative arts, music.
它们的作用是改善大脑中在衰老过程中容易受损的网络功能，特别是那些对注意力和社会联系至关重要的网络。
What what they do is they improve the function of networks in the brain that are at risk during the processes of aging, particularly because they're important for attention and social connection.
因此，如果我们真正投入时间去练习那些我们不擅长但能逐渐提高的事情，就能保持这些未来无论发生什么都会需要的广泛认知能力。
And so, if we really invest time in doing these things that we suck at and get better at but get get better at them, we maintain these broad cognitive skills that we're gonna need in the future regardless of of what happens.
而且其中一些也关乎个人层面。
And some of that is also personal.
所以，我的目标是尽可能提升自己的认知能力。
So I like, the goal is to build as much cognitive capacity as possible.
对吧？
Right?
我有一个‘余量’的概念，指的是日常所需与你真正能力之间的差距。
I have this idea of headroom, which is the difference between what you what you need on a day to day basis versus what you're truly capable of.
嗯。
Mhmm.
比如，日常生活中，你的腿只需要足够有力，能让你从马桶上站起来就够了。
It's it's the difference between like on a day to day basis, your legs need to be strong enough to like get you up off the toilet.
对吧？
Right?
但你的最大能力就像是你能深蹲的最大重量？
But your maximum capacity is like, what's your max back squat?
这两者之间的差距就是你的余量。
The the difference between those is your headroom.
这样一来，当你受伤、生病，或者需要把翻车的车从朋友身上抬起来时，你就有了足够的能力去应对。
And then that gives you capacity to perform when you're injured or sick or you need to like lift your car off your buddy because it got flipped in a car accident.
就是所有这些情况。
Like, all those things.
当你需要调动更多资源时，你希望这些资源是随时可用的。
Like, when you need to draw on greater resources, you want those resources to be there.
因为我们总会面临压力、睡眠不足、生病，但仍然希望大脑能正常运转。
Because we are gonna be stressed, sleep deprived, sick, and we still want our brains to function.
所以，投入精力去挑战那些困难的任务和技能，能建立起这种能力，以便在需要时能随时调用。
So investing in, like, really challenging tasks and skills builds that capacity so that we have access to it when we need it.
当你学习一项新技能，比如刚开始时很不擅长时，这对大脑有什么作用和影响？
What what is the function and, like, what what is the effect on the brain when you learn a new skill, like sucking at something?
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
我总是告诉人们，这是你能做的最好的事情之一
Which I always tell people is one of the best things you
确实。
can do.
完全正确。
100%.
很多人不喜欢这样，因为他们的自尊心受不了自己在某件事上表现得很差，但是
A lot of people don't enjoy it because their ego, they don't like being frustrated that they're terrible at something, but
是的。
Yeah.
不擅长某件事却依然全身心投入，并看到明显的进步，这种经历会刺激大脑的多个区域，嗯嗯。
There's something about not being good at something and dedicating yourself to it and and seeing market improvement that stimulates all sorts of areas of your mind Uh-huh.
我发现
Which I find
是的。
Yeah.
非常有趣。
Really interesting.
所以大多数人没有意识到，学习的过程本身正是神经可塑性的核心过程。
So most people don't realize that the process of learning, which in it self is like the core process of neuroplasticity.
对吧？
Right?
大脑在形成新的连接并巩固这些新连接。
The the brain making new connections and cementing new connections.
整个过程本质上是由失败和犯错驱动的。
That whole process is driven by failure, essentially, and making mistakes.
因为你的大脑是一个预测机器。
Because your brain is a prediction machine.
它不断根据你周围的环境和你试图做的事情来预测接下来会发生什么。
It's constantly predicting what's gonna happen next based on the world around you and what you're trying to do.
所以，想象一下，你正在尝试学习柔术中的某个新动作，但你完全不知道怎么做。
And so, imagine that you're trying to do some kind of new move in jujitsu or something, and you have no idea how to do it.
你会去尝试，但你的预期和现实之间会存在巨大的差距。
You're you're gonna try it, and there's gonna be this big gap between your expectation and reality.
这会让你感到沮丧。
That's gonna be frustrating.
对吧？
Right?
这就是失败的感觉。
That's the feeling of failure.
但正是这种感觉促使大脑调动资源，提醒我们：我们需要弥合期望发生的事与实际发生的事之间的差距。
But that's what diverts resources in the brain to say, hey, we need to close the gap between what we hoped would happen and what actually happened.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这正是推动神经可塑性的关键。
And that's what drives neuroplasticity.
而这同样也是促使大脑中与之相关的神经网络得以巩固和发挥功能的原因。
And this is also then what drives the cementing and function of these networks in the brain associated with that.
所以，你一开始做某件事很糟糕，但随着时间推移逐渐变好，这正是大脑为提升和维持功能所需要的。
So the idea that you you start sucking at something and you get better at it over time, that is exactly the thing that the brain needs in order to improve and maintain its function.
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选择一个话题。
Pick a topic.
做出你的预测。
Make your prediction.
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What will the total score be?
冷门球队能赢盘吗？
Will the underdog cover?
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Which team will be lifting the trophy at the end?
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Then c, will your big game smarts pay off?
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Don't just feel it, predict it.
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不过，你同时该承担多少这样的事情呢？
How many of those things should you take on at once, though?
这正是我的问题。
This is my issue.
是的。
Uh-huh.
我有个问题。
I I have a problem.
我希望自己能有四条生命，可以同时进行。
I I wish I could have four lives that I could run simultaneously.
我会做四种不同的职业。
I would do four I'd have four different occupations.
所以我尽量把很多事情塞进一天里。
So I try to smash as many things into a day as possible.
但很多时候我会想，天啊，我是不是同时在尝试太多不同的事情，想把它们都做好。
But there's many times where I think, boy, I think I'm doing too many different things that I'm trying to get good at.
是的。
Yeah.
也许如果我只专注于一件事，会更好。
And maybe it would be better if I just concentrated on one.
所以看待这个问题有几个不同的角度。
So there's a few different ways to look at this.
我认为，拥有广泛的基础和多样化的技能，可能是我们都应该追求的。
I think that a broad base and a broad range of different skills is probably something that we should all hope to have.
就像才能叠加。
Like talent stacking.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
如果你想想，我最喜欢的一本书是大卫·爱泼斯坦的《范围》，这本书探讨了那些在学术或体育领域真正取得成功的人所拥有的广泛技能。
And if you think about like, one of my favorite books is Range by David Epstein, which which talks about the broad range of skills that people who then really success really succeed in academia or sports have.
对吧？
Right?
他们并没有很早就开始专精。
They didn't specialize really early.
他们拥有广泛的能力基础，可以在日后专精时加以利用。
They had like a broad base of talents that they can then draw upon as they as they specialize later in life.
我认为这是我们所有人都可以追求的目标。
And I think that's something that we can all aspire to.
但同样更常见的情况是，我们尝试某件事，做一段时间后，就差不多放弃了，然后去尝试别的东西。
But equally, what's probably more common is that we try something, and we do it for a little while, and then we just kinda like give up on it, and we try something else.
是的。
And Yeah.
这样做确实有一点好处。
There's there's like a little bit of benefit to that.
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但当你查看一些真正研究学习这些创意技能效果的研究时，这些研究对象包括探戈舞者、画家和电子游戏玩家。
But when you look at some of the studies that really examine the effect of learning some of these creative skills, and they've done it with tango dancers and painters and video gamers.
当你将专家与新手进行比较时，你会发现专家在大脑某些网络功能上的优势，这确实需要达到一定程度的专业水平。
When you when you when you compare an expert to an amateur, and where you're seeing the benefits of expertise in terms of the function of some of these networks in the brain, it really is the development of some level of expertise.
要获得最大益处，很可能必须达到这种专业水平。
It it is probably required to see the maximum benefit.
显然，学习曲线在初期最为陡峭。
Obviously, the learning curve is steepest at the at the beginning.
对吧？
Right?
当你刚开始学习某样东西时，正是你进步最快的阶段。
Right when you're learn beginning to learn something, that's when you'll learn the fastest.
但专业水平也确实带来一些益处。
But there there is also some benefit to expertise.
所以，有些时候，简单来说，选择一两件你真正感兴趣并愿意长期持续提升的事情。
So some of that, like, just to say that pick one or two things that you're actually excited to continue getting better at for a long period of time.
所以你可能真的需要尝试各种不同的事情，直到找到真正让你兴奋的那一个。
And so then maybe you do have to, like, chart like, try a bunch of different things until you find the thing that, like, really, like, gets you going.
但所有这些不同的技能，对大脑都有相似的核心影响。
But across all those different skills, they have similar core effects on the brain.
所以你不必非得做其中一个或两个。
So you don't have to do one or both.
你只需要选择你最喜欢的那个就行了。
You can just pick the one that you enjoy the most.
所以这其实就是关于努力提升某项技能的过程，是的。
So it's just about the struggle of trying to get better at something Yeah.
本质上是这样。
Essentially.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我妻子目前正在学习一门新语言，她对此非常兴奋。
And my wife is learning a new language right now, and she's she's been so excited about it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这真的很有趣，因为她开始在家里用法语说话了，而这种事就是你会看着她这么做。
It's like, it's really interesting because she starts talking around the house in French, and and it's one of those things where you like I was I'm watching her do it.
她以前并不这样，但过去几个月里她一直在这么做。
She wasn't doing it, and then she's been doing it over the last couple months.
我看到她对这个新项目充满热情，我们讨论过，这种事做起来非常困难，但它比单纯学习更复杂，因为它涉及学习和互动。
And I'm seeing this, like, excitement in this, like, new project, and we were talking about it about how that is one of the things that's very difficult to do, but it's it's more complex than learning because it's learning and interacting.
这不仅仅是学习。
It's not just learning.
你是在学习，但你还必须与另一个人进行互动交流。
You're learning, but you have to you it requires, requires, like, like, this this back and forth with another person.
是的。
Yeah.
你得理解句子结构。
You have to understand sentence structure.
这就像要保持平静，尤其是法语和英语差别太大了。
You go to it's just like calm and especially French is so different than English.
里面涉及太多奇怪的东西，但我能看出来，这对她的大脑来说非常有刺激性。
There's there's so much weird shit involved in it, but you could see like, I could see in her that, like, this is very stimulating to her mind.
是的。
Yeah.
这让我想，天啊。
And it made me go, oh, man.
我应该学一门语言。
I should learn
一门语言。
a language.
但我心想，去他的。
But I'm like, fuck.
你哪来的时间学语言？
Where do have the time to learn a language?
但后来我想了想，当我整天刷社交媒体的时候，有些日子低头看手机，上面会显示：今天屏幕使用时间六小时。
But then I thought about, like, when I was on social media all the time, I would look down at my phone some days, and it would say, screen use today, six hours.
我心想：操，六小时。
I'm like, fucking six hours.
你的时间就花在这上面了。
That's where your time is.
没错。
Right.
如果你每天花六小时学西班牙语，早就流利了。
If you spent six hours just learning Spanish, how you'd be fluent.
我就能去塔可店用西班牙语点餐了。
I'd be able to go to Taqueria and order in Spanish.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
就像我们花了大量时间做无意义的事，而任何需要你大脑进入那种不适状态——‘这到底是什么？’的事情——
It's like we spend so much time doing nonsense that anything that you can do that requires your brain to be in that uncomfortable state of what is the oh, what is this?
哦，原来是这个。
Oh, it's this.
是这个吗？
Is that this?
明白了。
Got it.
你知道的，那种互动，嗯哼。
You know, that that dance Mhmm.
那种神经元的激活，强迫你的大脑去解开这个谜题，很多人根本没有这种体验。
That firing of the synapses and and forcing your brain to figure this this puzzle out, so many people don't have that.
我在那些每天做着相同事情、陷入停滞的人身上看到了这一点。
And I see it in people that get stagnant where they're doing the same thing every day.
他们的工作相当单调乏味，可能他们还喜欢，但完全没有任何刺激性。
Their job is fairly mundane and kinda boring, and maybe they like it, but there's nothing stimulating about it.
他们每天跟那些无聊透顶的人聊天。
They're talking to the same boring ass people.
他们从不锻炼。
They don't exercise.
他们回家。
They go home.
他们看电视。
They watch TV.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后他们就关闭了自己，日复一日地重复这一切。
And then they shut off, and they do it all again.
再过五到十年，你跟他们聊天时，简直感觉他们正在退化。
And then you talk to them, like, five, ten years later, and it's almost like they've they're slipping.
是的。
Yeah.
就像，你能看出来。
Like, you see it.
你能从那些生活单调的人身上看出来。
You can see it in people that have mundane existences.
他们的刺激水平太低了，以至于他们接受刺激的能力也变低了。
Like, their stimulation is so low that their ability to be stimulated is low.
我觉得。
I think that
你所描述的这种现象已经深深融入我们的社会，以至于我们开始觉得这是正常的。
that thing you describe is so baked into our society that we've started to believe that it's normal.
对。
Right.
所以当你观察一个人一生中认知功能的变化趋势时，想象一下，有一张图表，一边是认知功能，可能是一些基本的指标，比如信息处理速度。
So when you look at the trajectory of cognitive function over the over like your entire life, Imagine, like, a graph where on the one side you have cognitive function, and it could be something basic like processing speed.
你的大脑处理信息的速度有多快？
How quickly do you does your brain process information?
底部是年龄。
On the bottom is age.
对吧？
Right?
它往往在我们二十多岁到三十岁出头的时候达到顶峰。
It tends to peak sometime around our sort of mid twenties to early thirties.
通常来说，平均峰值往往越高且出现得越晚，取决于我们接受教育的时间长短。
It's usually the peak on average tends to be higher and later the more time we spend in education.
所以本质上我们作为专业学习者投入的时间越多，就越能构建那种最终的能力容量。
So the more time we spend essentially as professional learners, the more we can build that kind of final capacity.
之后，基本上就是逐渐平均下降的趋势。
After that, it's just sort of like, an average decrease downwards.
我的同事乔什·特克内特——他是位神经学家——和我几年前合写过一篇论文，我们在文中提出理论：之所以在人口层面观察到从那个年龄起认知功能开始衰退，是因为我们开始工作，日复一日重复相同事务，生活中其他琐事又接踵而至，再也无法像童年和求学时期那样投入同等时间去建设我们的认知能力。
And, colleague of of mine, Josh Turknet and I, he's a neurologist, we wrote a paper a couple a couple of years ago where we theorized that the reason why we see that decline in at the population level in cognitive function from about that age is because we go to work, we do the same thing again and again and again, and then everything else in our life gets in the way, and we never spend that same time investing in building our cognitive capacities the way we did when we were kids and when we were in school.
因此，这种下降部分是因为我们只是停止了这些活动。
And so the decline is partly because we just stop doing that.
所以，关于衰老的一个理论是，它只是发育的延续，就像发育的过程一样，大脑中大多数发育过程都是根据环境和大脑接收到的刺激来优化连接。
So the part you know, one of the theories of aging is that it's just a continuation of development, like process of development, and most of the processes of development in the brain are refining connections based on the environment and the stimulus the brain receives.
所以，如果你开始减少刺激，因为你不再从事这些具有认知挑战性的事情，大脑就会开始删除连接。
So if you start removing stimuli because you're no longer engaging in these, like, cognitively challenging things, the brain's gonna start removing connections.
嘿。
Hey.
我不需要那个。
I don't need that.
对吧？
Right?
我没有在使用我大脑的这部分。
I'm not I'm not using this part of my brain.
结果，你就开始看到能力的下降。
And then as a result, you start to see decline.
因此，有研究表明，如果你从事一份非常刺激、复杂、需要解决问题能力并包含大量社交互动的工作，那么你作为成年人的认知衰退速度会更慢，患痴呆症的风险也更低。
And so there are studies that show if you have cog if you have a very stimulating job, it's very complex, problem solving skills, lots of social interactions, you have a slower rate of cognitive decline as an adult and a and a lower risk of dementia.
你会发现，那些持续进行阅读、写作、听讲座、跳舞等一系列爱好的人，认知衰退的速度也会减缓。
You see, in individuals who, continue to engage in reading, writing, lectures, dancing, you know, a whole bunch of hobbies, again, you see a slowed rate of decline.
因此，我们原本以为随年龄增长必然发生的一些变化，其实是因为我们停止了与世界的互动，停止了挑战自己。
So some of what we just expect to happen with age is because of the way we we we stop engaging with the world and we stop challenging ourselves.
这完全说得通。
Well, it completely makes sense.
对吧？
Right?
比如，如果你想想身体活动，情况也是类似的。
Like, if you think about physical activity, it it goes along the same kind of path.
没错。
Exactly.
你看，我有一些朋友。
You see I have friends.
我58岁了，说出口真让人惊讶。
I'm 58, which is crazy to say.
听起来好像老了很多。
It sounds so old.
但我有一些58岁的朋友，他们简直就像骨架上挂着几块肉。
But I have friends that are 58 that are basically they're skeletons with, like, meat hanging around various parts of it.
但我的身体能力和三十多岁时非常相似。
But my physical ability is very similar to what it was when I was in my thirties.
我唯一能真正测试的方式就是参加体力竞赛，但我对这个并不感兴趣。
The only way that I could really test it was, like, physical competition, and I'm not really interested in that.
我不想受伤。
I I don't wanna get hurt.
但我的工作能力依然非常相似。
But my capacity for work is very similar.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道这一点，因为我强迫自己这样做。
And I know that because I force it.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我逼着自己去做。
You know, I I make myself do it.
我想，对于大脑来说，情况也是一样的。
And I would imagine the same thing is true with with the mind.
我的意思是，这一定是真的。
I mean, it has to be.
我觉得这一切是相互关联的。
I think it's all together.
这是用进废退。
It's a use it or lose it.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你的大脑不需要持续被吸引和刺激，比如为了生存而思考，会怎样？
And if your mind doesn't have a a need to be constantly intrigued and stimulated, like, could think for survival.
对吧？
Right?
我曾经推测过，也许可以问问你，因为这是我经常思考的问题。
Of the things that speculated maybe I can ask you about this because this is one of I I think about this a lot.
那么，什么是注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）？
Like, what is ADHD?
它到底是不是一个问题？我认为它是一种超能力，因为我很确定自己有。
And I whether or not it's actually a problem, I think it's a superpower because I'm pretty sure I have it.
嗯，是的。
Uh-huh.
你知道的？
You know?
但我依然能保持高效运作。
But yet I can folk I'm very functional.
我能专注于某些事情。
I can focus on things.
只要我通过活动把自己累垮，就能放松下来，嗯。
And as long as I tire myself out from activity, I can relax Mhmm.
我能集中注意力在事情上。
And I can concentrate on things.
我对某些事物非常感兴趣，能够全神贯注地投入其中。
And I'm I'm very interested in certain things, and I can lock into them and concentrate.
但如果我小时候被迫坐在一个非常无聊的老师面前，学习我不感兴趣的内容，而且碰巧父母又不对劲——幸运的是，我的父母并没有那样——我可能会被用药治疗。
But if if I was forced to be in a classroom with a very boring teacher teaching a subject I'm not that interested in, and I was a child, if I had the wrong parents, luckily, didn't, I would be medicated.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
但我认为，这种对特定事物的专注能力——也就是超专注——很可能是长期猎人的一种本能。
But I think that that is this ability to focus on certain things like hyperfocus was probably a function of a persistent hunter.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果你想抓动物，你不能是个容易放弃的人。
Because if you wanted to catch an animal, you couldn't be a person that gives up quick.
你得是个会持续追踪足迹的人。
You had to be a person that you you would keep looking for tracks.
你会不断寻找痕迹。
You keep trying to find sign.
你会想办法，比如，我得再坚持一小时。
You're trying to figure out a way, like, I've got keep pushing one more hour.
我们只剩下二十分钟的光线了。
We got twenty minutes of daylight left.
我得搞清楚这件事。
I've gotta figure this out.
对吧？
Right?
你必须有那种东西，才能成为一个成功的猎人。
You you that thing had to be in you in order to be a successful hunter.
所以我相信那确实是其中一部分。
So I'm sure that that's that's part of it.
目前对注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）的理解非常复杂。
The the current picture of ADHD, think, is is quite complicated.
我家里有患ADHD的亲人。
So I have family members with ADHD.
当他们开始服药后，他们说：‘哦，突然间，我的大脑正常运转了。’
When they then started on medication, they were like, oh, actually, all of a sudden, my brain works.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
So Right.
但那种药是阿德拉。
But that medication is Adderall.
对吧？
Right?
如果我吃了阿德拉，我也会说同样的话。
If I took Adderall, I would say the same fucking thing.
我不需要兴奋剂。
I don't need a stimulant.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果我现在吃了一剂兴奋剂，我会说：天啊，我感觉好多了。
But if I took a stimulant right now, I'd be like, dude, I'm so much better.
所以不是。
So no.
但你知道吗？对于某些患有多动症的人，给予兴奋剂反而能让他们平静下来。
But but you know what happens in in certain individuals with ADHD when you give them stimulants They calm down.
他们反而会平静下来。
They calm down.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为这是多种因素的综合作用。
So I think there's a combination of multiple things.
一方面，没错，在合适的环境中，这些特质确实非常有益，但你也必须考虑到，我们所处的现代环境充满了夜晚的强光、大量的咖啡因和兴奋剂。
Some is, yes, these can be very beneficial traits in the right settings, but you also have to consider that we're layering on a modern environment that's like bright lights at night, a whole bunch of caffeine and stimulants.
对吧？
Right?
而且当然，我认为其中一部分原因是老师讲得无聊，他们只是因为不感兴趣而无法投入——但事实上，大多数患有多动症的人仍然能够专注于他们感兴趣的事情，没错。
And yeah, of course, some of it is, I think, right, the teacher is boring and that, like, they're just not engaged because the majority of people with ADHD can still focus, right, on things that they're interested in focusing in Yes.
或者
Or
在。
on.
即使没有任何药物干预。
Even without any kind of medication.
是的。
Yeah.
但这是一个连续谱，我认为每个人表现出 ADHD 症状与否，背后有各种不同的原因。
So but there's, like, a sliding scale, and I think there's a whole bunch of different reasons why for one individual they might experience simp symptoms of ADHD or not.
所以我觉得这很复杂。
So I think I think it's complicated.
在你继续深入之前，我可以问你一个问题吗？
Can I ask you before you go any further on that?
我可以问你，这在多大程度上取决于体力活动？
Can I ask you, how much of that is dependent upon physical activity?
我们研究 ADHD 时，会考虑一个人是否经常进行体力活动吗？
Like, do we study ADHD based on whether someone is physically active or not?
因为你看，如果我不运动，我就会一团糟。
Because, look, if I'm not physically active, I'm a mess.
嗯。
Mhmm.
比如，如果发生了什么事，出于某种原因，我被法院命令禁止锻炼六个月，否则就坐牢，天哪。
Like, if for something if something happened and for some reason, like, I got a court order, you're not allowed to exercise for six months or you go to jail, like, oh god.
我可能会彻底崩溃。
I'd probably be a fucking complete basket case.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
也许我会完全患上多动症。
And maybe I would have full on ADHD.
也许我根本无法集中注意力。
Maybe I wouldn't be able to concentrate on anything.
我的大脑会到处乱窜。
My brain would be bouncing all over the place.
我的意思是，有多少是身体必须释放能量的生理需求？
Like, how much of it is a biological requirement that your body has to release energy?
我认为你可以把这一点扩展得更广，因为身体活动是我们生物学和生理学的核心需求。
So I think you can I would expand that out even further than that because physical activity is a core requirement of our biology and physiology?
对。
Right.
有一位著名的运动生理学家伊尼戈·萨尔蒙在米兰说过一句很精彩的话：过度的身体活动已经深深植根于我们的进化发展中，以至于我们现在不得不发明‘锻炼’这个概念，来防止不运动时发生的问题。
There's a there's a nice quote by Inigo Salmon on Milan, who's a, you know, well known exercise physiologist, who says that, excess physical activity is baked into our evolutionary, development so much so that now we've had to invent exercise in order to, like, like, to prevent what happens when we don't move.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，缺乏运动是一种致病、加速衰老的状态。
So it's the lack of movement is a disease causing, pro aging, like, situation.
所以，先打断你一下，是的。
So to stop you there Yeah.
如果我问，他们治疗患有多动症的孩子时，会考虑这一点吗？
What if I mean or do they when they treat kids with ADHD, do they take that into consideration?
所以，我不是研究注意力缺陷多动障碍的专家，我真的不知道。
So as I well, I'm not an ADHD researcher, so I I I genuinely don't know.
但我觉得，在给某人开兴奋剂之前，也许可以先让他们参加田径运动。
But I would think that before you would give someone a stimulant, maybe track and field.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
是的。
Yeah.
也许打打羽毛球。
And maybe play badminton.
做点需要四处跑动的事情，是吧。
Do something where you've gotta run around Yeah.
让你觉得，天啊。
Where you're like, oh, boy.
我现在能集中注意力了。
I can focus now.
我认为，无论孩子是否有潜在的诊断，这种做法都是必要的。
I think I think that that's again, would say that that's needed for all kids regardless of any potential diagnosis.
所以当然，我认为这一点应该被考虑进去。
So of course, we need I I think that should be taken into consideration.
是否这对每个孩子都足够，这很难说。
Whether that's gonna be enough for every kid, you know, hard to say.
但我们知道，所有人类都需要大量的身体活动，才能让身体机能正常运作。
But we know that all humans require significant amounts of physical activity just for their biology to work properly.
没错。
Right.
因此，如果这一点没有被重视、无法实现或不被鼓励，就会引发一系列问题。
So certainly, if that's not being taken into account or it's not available or it's not encouraged, there are a whole host of conditions where that's gonna become a problem.
这确实很有道理。
Well, it just only makes sense.
对吧？
Right?
而且，这可是个老生常谈的话题了。
And, I mean, this has been talked about forever.
斯多葛学派以前就讨论过这个。
The stoics used to talk about it.
这是在让心灵平静。
This is quieting the mind.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，武士们也经常谈论这个。
I mean, samurais used to talk about it.
它。
It.
就像这种身体活动。
Like, that physical activity.
你知道的，几千年前中国人练功夫时主要的好处之一，就是让心灵平静。
Just what, you know, one of the main benefits the Chinese used for kung fu thousands of years ago, quieting the mind.
而我们社会中普遍存在一种倾向，那就是几乎立刻为各种问题开药，但实际上你只是在抑制一种生物需求。
And the propensity that we have in the society, this direction of almost immediately prescribing a medication for something, when it seems like what you're what you're doing is you're dulling a biological requirement.
你是在掩盖那种你未能满足的生物需求所带来的影响。
You're you're dulling the impact of this biological requirement that you're not meeting.
为什么我们不先推荐锻炼呢？
Why wouldn't we prescribe exercise first?
然后再去考虑那些其他方法。
And then think about those things.
比如，荷尔蒙替代疗法。
Like, for instance, like, hormone replacement.
如果你遇到一位好医生，一位有职业道德的医生，他们在发现你睾酮水平低时，第一件事就是调整你的饮食。
If you have a good doctor, an ethical doctor that is working with someone and they they find out you have low testosterone, one of the first things they do is adjust your diet.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们会说，你的饮食中摄入了太多导致炎症的食物。
They say, well, you have so much food in your diet that causes inflammation.
你的饮食中含有大量的复合碳水化合物。
You have a very high rate of complex carbohydrates.
你的饮食中含有很多糖分。
You have a a a lot of sugar in your diet.
你饮酒过量。
You drink too much alcohol.
你吸烟。
You smoke cigarettes.
让我们先去掉这些因素，然后再看看会发生什么。
Let's remove those things first, and then let's see what happens.
然后你增加蛋白质摄入，开始喝水，你会发现，瞧，
And then you increase your protein, and you start drinking water, and you go, oh, look.
你的激素水平自然上升了。
Your hormone levels are going up naturally.
因为你正在把自己毒害。
Well, because you're fucking poisoning yourself.
对吧？
Right?
所以你不觉得，我的意思是，为什么他们不给孩子们开运动处方呢？
So wouldn't you I mean, why don't they prescribe exercise for kids?
除了这没法赚钱之外，难道这不是
Other than the fact that you can't make money off of it, wouldn't it be
一个好主意吗？
a good idea?
所以我认为所有孩子都应该每天进行数小时、最好是多种类型的运动和体力活动。
So I think that all kids should absolutely get, you know, several hours ideally of of movement and physical activity of different kinds every day.
问题的一部分在于，科学家和医生并不是不认为这很重要。
Part of the problem, it's not that scientists or doctors don't think that's that's important.
目前，我们现有的体系使得这些措施很难实施。
Right now, the systems that we have make it very difficult for those things to be to be put in place.
对吧？
Right?
所以要确保每个孩子都有时间与资源去锻炼，并且有合适的人指导他们，让他们知道该怎么做，并得到监督。
So making sure that every kid has the time and the resources to be able to exercise and, like, the the right kind of people so that they know what they're doing and they're they're supervised.
同样，如果你的睾酮水平低，睾酮替代疗法也是如此。
And, you know, it's the same with, say, with testosterone replacement if your if your testosterone's low.
大多数情况下是这样的。
Like, most right.
男性睾酮水平低的主要原因，或者最常见的原因之一，就是代谢疾病、久坐不动和饮食质量差的综合作用。
The the primary cause or one of the most common cause of of low testosterone in men is, right, that combination of metabolic disease, being sedentary, poor quality diet.
这一点我们都知道。
Like, we know that.
但要建立允许人们改变这些习惯的系统，并支持他们去实施，真的很难。
But creating the systems that allow people to change those things and then supporting them to do that is really hard.
没有人真正解决过行为改变的问题。
Nobody has solved the behavior change problem.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们考虑一下现代环境，以及它促使我们做或不做的事情，其实我们已经掌握了所有这些信息。
If we think about if we think about the modern environment and we think about what that drives us to do and not do, but we know we we have all this information.
对吧？
Right?
我们知道如何预防这些疾病。
We know how to prevent these diseases.
我们知道如何逆转其中许多疾病，而很多都与生活方式和环境有关。
We know how to reverse many of them, and a lot of it is driven by lifestyle and the environment.
但要支持人们改变这些行为，确保他们有资源和时间去做，这真的很难。
But supporting people to change those behaviors and make sure they have the resources and time to do it, that's really hard.
说实话，还没人解决这个问题。
Like, nobody solved that problem yet.
天啊，这看起来像是个很容易解决的问题。
Boy, that seems like a problem that's easy to solve.
这仅仅取决于个人责任感。
It's just based on personal responsibility.
不。
No.
但事实并非如此。
But it's not.
但如果你能告诉某人，这是你今天的要求。
But if you can tell someone, this is your requirement for the day.
我希望你跑一英里。
I want you to run one mile.
我希望你做一百个俯卧撑和一百个仰卧起坐，并记录下来。
I want you to do a 100 push ups and a 100 sit ups and write it down.
但你怎么能
But how are
你首先
you so first of all
但你说得好像这是不可能的。
But you're saying some you're saying it like it's impossible.
我不是说非常、非常困难。
I'm not saying very, very difficult.
我不是说这不可能。
I'm not saying it's I'm not saying it's impossible.
我认为，对于我们这些将这变成个性和生活一部分的人来说，就像你和我，当然，这就像，当然，你就会去做。
I think that those of us for whom this has become a part of our personality and our and our lives, like like you and me, Of course, it's been like, of course, you just do that.
你就去跑步。
Like, you just go for the run.
你就做一百个俯卧撑。
You do the 100 push ups.
对。
Right.
但对于那些从未有过类似经历、这从未成为他们环境或自我一部分的人来说，要改变这一点实际上需要大量的努力和指导，而且确实非常困难。
But for people who, like, have never had anything like this, and it's never been a part of their environment, it's never been a part of who they are, Changing that actually requires a ton of work and coaching, and it's actually it's actually really difficult.
当我说到
When I when I say
这很难，但从身体上讲完全是可实现的。
It's difficult, but it's totally doable physically.
我不是让你在水下呼吸。
It's not like I'm asking you to breathe underwater.
有人已经做到了，你可以从我的朋友Jelly Roll那里获得灵感。
Like, people have done it, and you can draw inspiration from the like, my friend Jelly Roll.
你知道Jelly Roll这位音乐人吗？
Oh, you know Jelly Roll, the musician?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
Jelly Roll曾经有500磅重。
Jelly Roll was 500 pounds.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他减掉了300磅。
And he's lost 300 pounds.
他没有使用Ozempic，也没有使用GLP类药物。
And he did it with no Ozempic, no GLP ones.
他只是开始走路，逐渐从饮食中戒掉糖分，而且进展甚至不慢。
He just started walking and started cutting sugar out of his diet and slowly but not even slowly.
在短短几年内，他就瘦成了一个普通人大小。
Over the course of just a couple of years, he shrunk to like a normal sized human.
这简直太惊人了。
It's fucking amazing.
但他从很多人身上汲取了灵感。
But he drew inspiration from a lot of other people.
你知道的？
You know?
其中一个人，他和我好朋友卡姆·海恩斯是好朋友。
One of them, he's he's good friends with my good friend Cam Haines Mhmm.
他是一位超马跑者和耐力运动员。
Who's a ultramarathon runner and endurance athlete.
所以，你知道，他带着他一起跑步、锻炼，帮助他，还让他看YouTube视频，他开始做的就是走路——以前连上坡都走不动，他就绕着街区走，明明不想爬坡的时候也硬是去爬，就这样坚持下来了。
And so, you know, he's taken him on runs and worked out with him and helped him and just watching YouTube videos and just all he started doing was just walking, you know, where he couldn't walk up hills, and he would just walk around his block and walk up the hill when he didn't wanna do it, and he did it.
这其实并不是。
It's like it's not.
你可以做到的。
It's you can do it.
你只需要开始去做。
You just have to start doing it.
我认为最难的就是开始行动。
And I think the starting doing it is the most difficult.
我不觉得一旦你有了动力之后会很难，因为当人们开始做某件事时，会变得兴奋，然后就会期待下一次再做。
I don't think it's difficult to do it once you gather momentum because there's a there's a thing that happens with people when they start doing something, they get excited, and then they look forward to doing it again.
你不能找一个体重五百磅的人，然后说：今天我们要做一百个俯卧撑、一百个仰卧起坐。
As long as you don't like, you don't take a guy who's five hundred pounds and say, today, we're gonna do a 100 push ups, 100 sit ups.
我们先做壶铃训练，然后绕街区跑几圈。
We're gonna do kettlebells, and then we're gonna do laps around the the block.
你做不到的。
You can't do it.
这不可能。
It's not possible.
是的。
Yeah.
但你可以先去散个步。
But you could just go for a walk.
明天，我们再走远一点。
And then tomorrow, we're gonna go for a walk a little bit further.
两周后，我们把走路的距离翻倍。
And then in two weeks, we're gonna double that walk.
三周后，我们会加入一些轻量的自重深蹲。
And then in three weeks, you know, we're gonna incorporate some light body weight squats.
在这个过程中，我们会调整你的饮食，并把这些事情记录下来。
And along the way, we're gonna adjust your diet, and then write these things down.
这并不是不可能的。
Like, this is it's not impossible.
所以他们只是需要动力。
So It's just they need motivation.
是的，我同意。
So I I I agree.
这并不是不可能的。
It's it's not impossible.
但你知道，我曾与几家从事行为改变领域的数字健康公司合作过，人们并不需要更多信息。
But, you know, I've worked with several digital health companies who are working in the behavior change space, and people don't need more information.
他们知道需要多走路，知道可以吃得更好，也知道可以睡得更好。
Like, they know that they need to to walk more, and they know that they could eat better, and they know that they could sleep better.
对。
Right.
但这个过程是试图首先理解，我到底该怎么做？
But the the process of trying to, first of all, understand, like, how should I do that?
我该做什么呢？
What should I do that?
什么时候，你知道，我该在什么时候做？
When, you know, when when should I do that?
然后，确实，有些人可能完全没时间，或者他们住的地方，说实话，他们不想在外面散步。
And then, right, like, some people may absolutely not have the time or the maybe they live somewhere where actually, you know what, they don't want to be walking around outside.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Right.
这种情况相当常见。
That's that's relatively common.
或者他们没有厨房。
Or they don't have a kitchen.
对吧？
Right?
那么你怎么做饭呢？
So then how do you how do you cook food?
你是怎么应对这个饮食环境的？
Like, how how do you navigate that that food environment?
我同意。
So I I agree.
我完全同意你的观点。
I I completely agree with you.
所有这些都是可以做到的。
All of this is doable.
只是不同的人在最初阶段需要不同程度的支持。
It's just that different people are gonna need different levels of support to do that initially.
对吧？
Right?
抓住这个势头。
Gain that momentum.
对。
Right.
理解那种感觉，理解它如何改变他们。
Understand understand how how that feels, how it changes them.
而目前，大多数人无法获得这种支持。
And right now, the majority of people don't have access to that that kind of support.
我绝对希望这种情况能改变。
And I absolutely hope that that changes.
对吗？
Right?
饮食环境发生变化，使改变饮食方式变得容易得多；同时，建成环境也发生变化，使外出散步和进行大量活动变得容易得多。
The food environment changes so that it's much easier to change the way that you eat, and that the built environment changes so that it's much easier to go out and and have a walk, and and and do a lot of that.
所以我认为我们必须考虑到这两方面。
So I think that we just have to consider that it's both.
对吧？
Right?
有一个个人层面的因素。
There's there's an individual component.
对吧？
Right?
但同时也存在一个社会层面的因素，我们需要让这一切尽可能地合理。
But there's also like a societal component where we have to make this as Right.
融入人们现有的生活之中。
As for people as possible, and sort of like build it into their lives such as they are.
好的。
Okay.
那么我们来谈谈它的社会层面。
So let's consider the societal aspect of it.
想想看，你会如何实施这样的措施？
Let's consider the like, how would you implement something?
比如说，假设你被任命加入某个委员会，负责尝试推动这种嗯哼。
Like, let's let's imagine that you get appointed to some committee that's in charge of try trying to facilitate this Mhmm.
人们的成长与进步，你会怎么做？
Growth and improvement in people, what would you do?
所以我认为需要几个不同的组成部分。
So I think you need a few a few different parts to it.
一个很好的部分是通过，你知道，如果能大幅提高各个阶段教育的质量和可及性，并使体育活动成为其中的常规部分。
One great part would be to say through you know, if you could dramatically improve quality and access of, like, education at all levels and make physical activity just be a regular part of that.
这一点随着时间的推移，已经在全球许多教育课程中被逐渐移除了。
That has been slowly removed from many educational curriculums around the world over over time.
对吧？
Right?
所以把其中一些内容重新引入，让它成为日常生活的一部分。
So bring some of that back, and it just becomes part of day to day life.
然后你还需要教人们掌握这些其他事物所涉及的技能。
And then you would also teach people the skills involved in some of these these other things.
所以，教人们如何烹饪，以及如何在他们所能接触到的资源范围内，结合他们的文化偏好、饮食习惯和经济能力来进行烹饪。
So, like, teach teach people how how to cook and and how to do that within the bounds of what they have access to their, you know, cultural preferences, dietary preferences, you know, financial, you know, financial abilities, that kind of stuff.
对。
Right.
这应该成为学校课程的一部分。
That should be a part of school curriculum.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
就像你应该教孩子们关于税收和其他这些事情一样。
Just like you should teach kids about taxes and all these all these other things.
对。
Right.
所以我认为，如果从早期开始，以好奇心和技能培养的方式进行，就能让人们更好地融入生活，我认为这就是应该开始的地方。
And so I think if you start early on and you do this with sort of curiosity and and skill building, then you release people out into the you know, that that that I think that's that that's the place to start.
因为当你进入现实世界，打着三份工，住在你根本不想出门散步的地方，每晚勉强只能睡六个小时，还要照顾三个孩子的时候，如果有人对你说‘嘿，你应该每天做100个俯卧撑’
Because when you get out into the real world and you're working three jobs and you live somewhere where you don't want to go for a walk outside, and like you can barely get six hours of sleep every night, and you know, you've got three kids that you're trying to look after, saying, oh, hey, you should do a 100 push ups every day.
那根本不可能实现。
Like, that's not gonna happen.
会有其他更重要的事情发生。
Like, other things are gonna happen that that are more important.
所以我认为存在这部分问题，也许关键在于技能培养方面。
So so I I think there's that part, maybe the the the skill building part.
然后要考虑的是，如何让人们有机会去做这些事情。
Then it's thinking about, like, how people have opportunities to do those things.
接着我会考虑，比如获得高质量医疗保健、心理护理的机会，有时候人们需要帮助却无法获得，或者费用太高等等。
And then I would think about, you know, access to high quality, you know, healthcare, psychological care, like these things that's like some sometimes people need help that they can't get access to or it's expensive or whatever.
所以我认为提供更多这方面的支持，让他们在需要时能得到帮助，肯定也会大有裨益。
So I think giving more of that, so that they get support when they need it is definitely would definitely help as well.
我觉得一个很好的方法是设计一个网站，甚至可以是一个政府网站，让你输入体重、上次体育活动时间、饮食习惯等各种信息。
I think one great way would be to devise a website, make like maybe, like, even a government website where you put in, like, your body weight, when was your last physical activity, what this, that, the other thing, all the what's your diet?
然后他们推出一个项目，你可以在线上和其他正在做同样事情的人一起参与，并分享你的成果。
And then they implement a program, and you could follow online with a bunch of other people that are doing the same thing and post your results.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这具有社区的属性。
So you have a community aspect to it.
你有一个可以遵循的专属计划，就不必再想，‘我不想做这个’。
You have a dedicated program that you can follow so you don't have to think about, oh, I don't wanna do that.
我不想做那个。
I don't wanna do this.
它会直接告诉你：就做这个。
Like, it'll just tell you, just do this.
就做这个。
Just do this.
哦，你体重有四百磅。
Oh, you weigh four hundred pounds.
你39岁了。
You're 39 years old.
你已经有十年没锻炼了。
You haven't worked out in ten years.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
这是第一天。
Here's here's day one.
是的。
Yeah.
跟着做，记录你的体重和饮食情况。
And follow along, post your weight, post your what you're eating.
我的意思是，我的意思是，有了AI，这正是大语言模型的一个优点。
I mean, that I mean and with AI, I mean, that's one of the good things about an LLM.
对吧？
Right?
借助人工智能，你可以让它帮你制定调整方案。
With AI, you could ask it to formulate adjustments.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以说，好的。
And you could say, okay.
我应该摄入哪些营养素？
What nutrients should I be consuming?
我到底需要多少蛋白质？
What how much protein do I actually need?
我需要多少卡路里？
How much how many calories do I need?
这个和那个里有多少卡路里？
How many calories are in this and that?
而且你知道，我到底从二十盎司的西兰花或者别的什么东西里能获取多少蛋白质？
And, you know, how what is how much protein do I get from, you know, 20 ounces of broccoli or whatever the fuck it is.
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
是的。
Yeah.
当你查看一些最成功的改变行为的试验时，其中大多数都是围绕减重研究展开的。
So when you look at some of the most successful trials of behavior change, and most of them are based around weight loss studies.
对吧？
Right?
那是一种非常典型的做法。
That that's that's a very typical way to do it.
当你希望某人改变行为并对此感觉良好时，其中一个概念是自我决定理论，你可能听说过。
When you see when when you want somebody to change their behavior and feel feel good about it, one of the sort of constructs is self determination theory, you've probably heard of.
对吧？
Right?
人类需要三样东西：自主性、胜任感和归属感。
Humans need three things, autonomy, competence, and relatedness.
自主性就是说，我掌控自己的生活，我掌控自己的决定。
So autonomy is the like, I am in charge of my life and I'm in charge of my decisions.
那么，今天我想专注于哪些事情呢？
So what are the things that I want to work on today?
对吧？
Right?
在这方面我有一定的选择权。
I have some choice there.
胜任感，就是如何让人觉得自己知道自己在做什么？
Competence, like, how do I help somebody feel like they know what they're doing?
很多人在锻炼或饮食上的障碍就在于：我不知道自己该怎么做。
Like, a lot of the hurdles with exercise or diet is like, I don't know what I'm doing.
这个人说我要做冲刺训练，那个人说我要举重，还有人说我要做一定量的二区训练。
And like, this guy says that I need to do sprints, and this guy says I need to lift weights, and this guy says I need to do x amounts of zone two.
但我是说，这到底是什么意思？
But I like, what does that even mean?
就是
Like
对。
Right.
我连自己该做什么都不知道吗？
Like, do I even know what I'm supposed to do?
那你怎么才能让人建立能力呢？
Like, so how do you build competence in people?
然后是归属感，这正是你刚才提到的重点。
And then relatedness, that's the point that that you were making.
对吧？
Right?
你有一个群体。
You have a group.
比如，你们会互相支持。
Like, you support each other.
也许你们会一起做一些事情。
Maybe you do stuff you do stuff together.
有史以来最成功的减肥试验之一被称为广度研究。
So one of the most successful weight loss trials of all time was called the broad study.
他们做的一件事是，减掉了大量体重，并且保持住了。
And one of the things they did, so they they lost a lot of weight and they kept it off.
大多数减肥研究中，人们之后都会复胖，但这项研究中，他们每周见面好几次。
And so most weight loss studies, people regain it afterwards, is they they met several times a week.
他们举办聚餐、团体活动，嗯。
They did like potlucks, group activities Mhmm.
比如，他们互相帮助。
Like they helped each other.
是的。
Yeah.
社区。
Community.
是的。
Yeah.
社区。
Community.
同样的道理。
Same thing.
那样做的一个缺点是，曾经有一个应用程序，我想不起名字了，它试图为锻炼建立这样的机制。
The one downside of that is that there were there were there was there was an app, I can't remember the name of it, that would that tried to build that for exercise.
比如，你会有这些伙伴，他们是你负责监督的同伴。
So like, you'd have these buddies and they'd be your accountability buddies.
但实际情况是，当人们开始懈怠时，他们会更快地离开平台，因为他们觉得：我不想让我的同伴知道我没有做他们本该帮助我完成的事。
But what happened was that when people started to slip, they left the platform much faster because they were like, I don't want my buddies to know that I'm not doing what they are supposed to be helping me do.
所以你必须建立多种缓冲机制和不同的方式，来根据每个人不同的动机提供帮助。
So you kind of have to like build in multiple buffers and different ways to help people depending on what it is that motivates them or not.
我的意思是，我们有公立教育。
I mean, we have public education.
对吧？
Right?
我们有大学。
We have universities.
我们有公立高中和初中。
We have public high schools and middle schools.
那为什么没有公立健身房呢？
Why don't we have public gyms?
我的意思是，建立社区健身房要花多少钱？那里不需要钱就能加入，费用由你的税收承担。
Why don't I mean, how much money would it cost to have community gyms set up where you don't have to have money to join, where it's paid for by your your taxes.
你谈论的并不是在财政上不可行的事情。
You're not talking about something that's out outside of, you know, like, financially, it wouldn't be feasible.
是的。
Yeah.
这并不难
It's not that hard
去做。
to do.
所以我认为，我不知道现在的财务模式是什么，但当时的想法就像YMCA那样。
So I think that was the I don't know what the financial model is now, but that was the the the idea of, like, the YMCAs.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
成为一个社区的中心点。
Becomes a a community focus point.
嗯，对。
Like Uh-huh.
我妻子在北卡罗来纳州长大。
My wife grew up in North Carolina.
她总是说起他们小时候经常去 YMCA 打篮球，
It's like she talks about how they were down the YMCA all the time, like, playing basketball and
我住在波士顿时，那里也有个 YMCA，我常去。
like have a YMCA when I lived in Boston that I used to go to.
费用真的很便宜。
It was really cheap.
那里有健身器材。
They had weights.
还有一条跑道。
They had a a track.
他们还有一个游泳池。
They had all they had a swimming pool.
他们有各种各样的设施。
They had all sorts of stuff.
比普通健身房便宜多了，而且还有各种课程可以参加。
It was way cheaper than a regular gym, and they had classes you could take.
是的。
Yeah.
在我长大的英国地方，也有类似的地方。
And there was something very similar close to where I grew up in The UK.
只要花几英镑，就可以去参加某种武术课程之类的。
Just like for a couple of pounds, you go do a a some kind of martial arts class or something.
是的。
Yeah.
他们那里也有。
They had that too.
奥斯汀有YMCA吗？
Does Austin even have a YMCA?
有的。
Yep.
当然有。
Definitely.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
市中心有个很大的YMCA。
There's one there's like a big one downtown.
我曾经开车路过过一次。
I've driven past it once.
有着很大的玻璃前厅。
Like big glass front.
我的意思是，我不知道它收费多少。
Like, I I mean, I don't know what it costs.
在奥斯汀，进入YMCA要花多少钱？
How much does it cost to get into the YMCA in Austin?
我们来查一下吧。
Let's find that out.
我的意思是，这本该由税收来支付。
I mean, that should be paid for by taxes.
是的。
Yeah.
为什么？
Why?
我的意思是，如果我们为所有这些我们不需要的东西买单，那为什么不能为这个呢？
I mean, if we pay for all this other shit that we don't need, why don't why don't,
你知道，当一个主要障碍是可及性的时候
you know When when when a big hurdle is accessibility and
有一年，新进度包今天加入了。
One year, new progress pack joined today.
多少钱？
How much?
一年125美元？
A $125 value for a year?
上面是这么写的吗？
Is that what it says?
需要多少钱？
How much does it cost?
没写价格是多少。
Doesn't say how much it cost.
多少钱？
What does it cost?
立即加入。
Join today.
点击多少？另外，大多数健身房会员的秘诀是，他们根本不会在网站上列出价格。
How much do I click on Also, the secret of most memberships for gyms, they don't list their prices on Yeah.
但它在YMCA上。
But it's on YMCA.
点击加入，今天就加入。
Click on join join today.
我告诉你，他们希望你进来打个招呼，这样他们就能和你交谈。
Telling you, they want you to come in and say hi so they can talk to you.
哦，原来是这样吗？
Oh, is that what it is?
每一个都是。
Every yeah.
大家都这么操作，但可能比大多数都便宜。
That's how everyone works, but it's probably cheaper than most.
那你为什么不把它输入到Perplexity之类的东西里呢？
Well, why don't you put it into perplexity or something like that?
问一下，加入YMCA要花多少钱？
Say, what is how much does it cost to join a YMCA?
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