第2454集 - Robert Malone医学博士

而这些技术与能力，你知道，它们被系统性地构建起来，主要由英国和美国的情报机构主导，作为一种战争武器，用来应对我们不断失利的那些叛乱局势。

And that, you know, is is and has has you know, this this suite of technology and capabilities that we saw deployed in all of us were built in a kind of a structured way largely by UK and US leadership in the intelligence community as a weapon of war to counter these successful insurgencies that we keep losing wars over.

越南战争就是一个显著的例子，一直延续到阿富汗战争。

You know, Vietnam being a notable example all the way through Afghanistan.

因此，这些技术最初是为此目的而开发的，但后来却被政府用于对付本国公民。

And so that that's why it was built, but then that tech got deployed by governments against their own citizens.

而这一做法在美国很大程度上是由巴拉克·奥巴马总统的一项行政命令启动的。

And this was really launched in large part in The United States by a presidential directive from Barack Obama.

我不是在编造这个。

I'm not making this up.

你可以去查证。

You can look it up.

顺便说一句，那项确立美国‘助推技术’单位的总统行政命令至今仍然有效。

And by the way, the presidential directive is still in place that established the, Nudge Technology units of The United States.

这些技术在英国早已投入运作，而且在英国已经相当成熟。

They were already operating in The UK, and in The UK, quite advanced.

当你现在看英国的政治，以及那里发生的各种审查和其他事情时，你知道，这可不是闹着玩的。

When you look at The UK politics right now and what's going on there with all the censorship and everything, you know, this is no joke.

我们正朝着那个终点飞速前进，就像加拿大一样。

We're we're barreling right to that endpoint same as Canada has.

你知道，我们只是稍微慢了一点。

You know, we're just a little bit behind.

而在我们这里，我们有宪法第一修正案的保护，还有法院的制约，你知道的。

And there, they you know, we have the benefit of the First Amendment in a constitution and, you know, often on courts.

但在那里，他们没有这些障碍。

But there, they they don't have those obstacles.

英国政府认为，一旦赢得选举，就有充分的理由对本国人民使用这种现代心理学和信息控制技术。

And the government believes in The UK that once they have won an election, it's perfectly acceptable to deploy this modern psychology and information control technology on their own population.

我认为，一旦跨越了这条界线，由于技术力量过于强大，民主的理念就会被彻底扭曲。

And I argue that once that Rubicon is crossed, the idea of democracy, because the tech is so powerful, becomes completely perverted.

我们在新冠疫情期间就深刻体会到了这一点。

And we got a good hard taste of that during COVID.

你我所经历的，你关于伊维菌素的经历，你关于分享个人经历后所遭遇的反弹，都是一个极其有力、清晰的案例，帮助我们理解现代心理学、战争技术与数字世界交汇的现状，以及信息的算法控制、为我们每个人创建数字化身、如今人工智能被用来定制化推送信息，这些信息定期进入我们的数字领域，目的不仅是推销商品，更是塑造我们的思维方式，控制我们随时能接触到的信息。

What what you and I experienced, what you experienced with ivermectin, what you experienced with, you know, just talking about your own experiences, and the blowback that happened after we did that little hit is is a super powerful clear case study in understanding this intersection of modern psychology, warfare technology, and the digital world, and and algorithmic control of information, the creation of digital avatars for all of us, the application now in present of artificial intelligence to custom craft messaging that gets fed into our digital domains on a regular basis in order to, you know, sell us whatever, but also to shape how we think and to control what information we get access to all the time.

举个例子，我妻子经常为我们Substack做研究，前几天她跟我聊了聊。

Just to give an example, my wife, who does a lot of our research for a substack, was talking to me the other day.

她给了我几个例子，说明美国主流媒体发布的某些报道中，故意不提及某些关键名字之类的内容。

She she just gave me a couple examples where stories that were in corporate media in The United States that weren't listing certain key names or whatever.

她说，我就直接去看《印度斯坦时报》。

She said, I just go to the Hindustan Times.

《印度斯坦时报》是了解我们在美国无法看到的各类信息的绝佳来源。

Hindustan Times is a great source for all the stuff that we're not allowed to see here in The United States.

你现在处在一个信息环境中，你无法再依赖主流媒体——但我们其实都心知肚明。

You're now in a in an environment, in an information environment where you cannot rely on but we all know that.

你不能依赖主流媒体，但如今围绕信息所设定的规则和界限极为深刻，正在严重扭曲我们理解周围发生之事的能力。

You can't rely on corporate media, but the but the the rules, the boundaries that are being set up about information are profound, and they're completely distorting our ability to process what's happening around us.

我能给你举个实际发生过的例子吗？

Can I give you the example of what actually happened?

你在我们关于Spotify负面反应的例子中提到过。

You you said in in our example with the blowback in Spotify.

这份报告由国会发布，记录了与COVID相关的情况。

This is documented by a a report out, from the house about COVID and what happened.

这份报告只涵盖到疫苗初期阶段，之后就停止了。

And that report only carries just through to the early part of the vaccines, and then it stops.

不知为何，他们并不想深入探讨疫苗相关的问题。

They for some reason, they didn't really wanna go down the road to the vaccines.

他们确实大量讨论了所谓的‘实验室泄漏’假说，这是被允许的。

They did talk a lot about the events around the, let's say, Lablick hypothesis, which is allowed.

现在在华盛顿，你可以自由谈论这一点。

You're you're allowed in DC now to talk about that.

终于。

Finally.

是的。

Yeah.

你仍然很好

You're still you're well

大约四年之后，你才被允许。

and It was about four years later you allowed.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，记录显示，事件的脉络是我们进行了讨论。

So what was documented was that the the trail of events was that we had our discussion.

这引发了后续发展，听起来可能很奇怪，但这就是记录的内容。

That triggered and then this is gonna sound bizarre, but this is what's documented.

这促使可口可乐公司向全球负责任媒体联盟投诉，该联盟由世界经济论坛创立。

That triggered Coca Cola Corporation to complain to the Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which is created by the World Economic Forum.

它是这些控制广告的全球聚合平台之一。

It is one of these global aggregators that controls advertising.

全球负责任媒体联盟，顺便说一下，曾与埃隆·马斯克发生过冲突并败北，随后作为非营利组织关闭了。

The Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which, by the way, had a dust up with, Elon Musk and lost, and they closed it down as a nonprofit.

但它仍以其他形式存在；然而，作为可被X起诉的实体结构，当马斯克站出来对抗它时，它就消失了。

It still exists in other ways, But as a structure that could be sued by x, it disappeared when he stood up against it.

但全球负责任媒体联盟，顺便说一下，与谷歌AdSense有合作关系。

But Global Alliance for Responsible Media had a socket with Google AdSense, by the way.

因此，他们控制着广告生态系统，这对Spotify来说相当重要。

So they control the advertising ecosystem, which kinda matters to Spotify.

于是可口可乐向GARM投诉，说这个叫罗根的人，你们必须封杀他。

So Coca Cola complains to Garm saying, this guy, Rogan, you gotta shut him down.

明白吗？

K?

你得给Spotify施加压力。

You gotta put pressure on Spotify.

所以Spotify从Garm那里收到了消息，说我们要撤回你的广告。

So Spotify gets the message from Garm that we're gonna we're threatening to pull your advertising.

明白吗？

K?

但在那之后和你的经历之间发生了什么，我不清楚。

Now what happens between that and your experience, I don't know.

说实话，我对你的经历并不了解。

You know, it's not transparent to me what you experienced.

是的。

Yeah.

我们都记得劳雷尔峡谷那群人说要撤回他们的凯迪拉克，而实际上他们根本没拥有那些车。

We all remember the Laurel Canyon crowd saying they were gonna pull their Cadillacs, which they didn't actually own.

对吧？

Right?

那又是另一回事。

That was that was another thing.

然后他们用一系列内在的历史事件来针对你。

And then they they went after you with this mashup of inward historic events.

很明显，有人蓄意要打压乔·罗根，远超过针对罗伯特·马龙。

You know, there was clearly a concerted effort to take out Joe Rogan, much more than to take out Robert Malone.

于是问题来了，为什么可口可乐会成为全球应对联盟的赞助方，而它可是世界上最大的广告商之一？

And so then the question comes, why the heck would Coca Cola be the socket with the global alliance for response one of the biggest advertisers in the world.

对吧？

Right?

可口可乐为什么会关心乔·罗根在新年夜对罗伯特·马龙说了什么？

Why would Coca Cola give a hooey about what Joe Rogan said to Robert Malone on, you know, New Year's Eve?

可口可乐与疾控中心关系密切。

Coca Cola is really tight with the CDC.

可口可乐曾资助过疾控中心的建筑。

Coca Cola has funded buildings at the CDC.

可口可乐资助了疾控中心基金会，比尔和梅琳达·盖茨基金会以及主要的疫苗制造商等也都如此。

Coca Cola funds the CDC foundation foundation for the CDC as does Bill and Melinda Gates, has done all the major vaccine manufacturers, etcetera, etcetera.

表面上看，我无法证实这一点，但疾控中心似乎是通过其盟友可口可乐采取行动的。

The appearance is, I can't verify this, that CDC acted through its ally, Coca Cola.

他们为什么是盟友？

Why are they allies?

可口可乐和疾控中心有什么关系？

What's Coca Cola got to do with CDC?

这里的重点是，可口可乐希望疾控中心促使世卫组织不要对糖类摄入的宣传施加限制。

The angle there is that Coca Cola wanted the CDC to get WHO to not implement restrictions in messaging about sugar use.

明白吗？

K?

他们不希望出现这些信息。

They didn't want those messages.

记住，这正是如今被颠倒的膳食金字塔的核心所在。

Remember, this is at the heart of the inverted food triangle now.

那个旧的食品金字塔是糖业游说集团的产物。

The the the old food triangle was the product of sugar lobby.

我的意思是，糖业游说集团非常强大，因为这些东西上瘾。

I mean, the sugar lobby is incredibly powerful because this stuff is addictive.

这就像有可卡因游说集团一样。

I mean, it's it's like having the cocaine lobby.

对吧？

Right?

而且，这个说法很有趣，因为可口可乐的历史确实如此。

Well and, you know, that's an interesting analogy because, of course, the history of Coca Cola.

对。

Right.

糖确实让人上瘾。

But so sugar's addictive.

可口可乐不想让CDC影响公共卫生政策，避免在全球层面提出关于糖摄入风险的建议，因为这可能会损害他们的市场份额——毕竟他们是一家大型全球化公司。

The the c d c the Coca Cola didn't want the c d wanted the CDC to influence public health policy to avoid global positions on the risks associated with sugar intake because it would potentially hurt their market share with you know, they're a major globalized company.

所以我刚刚描述的这个小生态系统，展示了我们当前所面对的情况，以及所有这些影响、信息传递和信号表达是如何在我们如今所处的这种横向与纵向一体化的生态系统中发生的。

So that's that little ecosystem that I just described illustrates what we're dealing with here and the many ways that all of this kind of influence in messaging and signaling happens in this kind of integrated horizontally and vertically ecosystem that we live in right now.

从这一点中衍生出的一件事，你还记得吗？你被问到——我记得，你曾说过，我拍过一段人质视频。

And one of the things that came out of that, you'll recall, was that you were asked as I recall, you you gave this you know, I've I've had a hostage video.

我想那是在你早年说‘我要这么做’的时候，几乎就像一段人质视频。

I think that was a close to a hostage video from you back in the day when you were saying, this is what I'm going to do.

那是在你家门廊之类的地方拍的。

It was like out on your porch or something.

我记得当时在毛伊岛的篝火旁，有人突然说：‘你刚看了罗根的那段视频吗？’

I remember I was sitting around a campfire in Maui quite literally when somebody said, oh, did you just see this from Rogan?

事实上，当时我正坐在加文·德·贝克尔的篝火旁，就是那位你认识的人。

And a matter of fact, I was sitting around Gavin De Becker's campfire at that time, somebody that you know.

所以最后的妥协方案是，在那集节目的底部加一个小小的提示片段。

And so the compromise was that there would be a little trailer put at the bottom of that episode.

顺便说一句，你可能也知道，那集节目很长一段时间都很难找到了。

And by the way, you probably know that episode for a long time became very hard to find.

它基本上被搜索引擎屏蔽了，等等等等。

It was it was basically blacklisted from the search engines, etcetera, etcetera.

但我想，那个小横幅仍然存在，上面写着：如果你想了解关于新冠的真相，应该去CDC。

But you it carries on I think it still does, that little banner that says, you know, you should go to the CDC if you want the true true about COVID.

你仍然能在YouTube上经常看到这类横幅弹出。

And you can still find that those kinds of banners popping up all the time on YouTube.

如果你谈论疫苗

If you if you talk about vaccines

和

and

新冠疫苗，只要通过了过滤器，YouTube允许它继续存在——因为你没有说某些话，那么就会出现那个小横幅。

COVID vaccines, that will get if if you pass the filters, if if YouTube will allow that to still be up because you didn't say something, whatever it is, then you'll get the little banner.

好的。

Okay.

这个横幅是由CDC的助推团队推送的。

That banner is pushed out by the nudge units at the CDC.

好的。

K.

这就是助推技术。

That is nudge technology.

它无处不在，本质上仍是源于奥巴马总统时期尚未废除的旧政令所延续的公共政策。

It is all around us all the time, and it's it's basically still public policy consequent to the old Obama presidential directive that still hasn't been rescinded.

你知道，我非常喜欢特朗普总统。

You know, I love president Trump.

我认为他正在做着了不起的事情。

I think he's doing amazing things.

我认为他非常勇敢。

I think he's amazingly brave.

我前几天在茂宜岛见到加文时，他提到特朗普，称他是五百年一遇的领袖，而加文这么说绝非轻率之言。

I just mentioned our friend Gavin De Becker referred to Trump the other day when I saw Gavin in in Maui as a once in 500 year leader, and that's that's not that's not nothing coming from Gavin.

因此，我是个坚定的支持者，但总统仍然保留了这一机制，它指导联邦政府对美国民众使用助推技术以及我所称的心理战技术。

And so I'm I'm a big supporter, but the president has still left in place this mechanism that exists that directs the federal government to use nudge technology and related what I assert is psychological warfare technology on the American populace.

对。

Right.

这事儿是多久以前的来着？

This is from back in what was it?

2015年左右吧？

2015 or something like that?

那已经是很久以前了。

It's it's quite early.

是的。

Yeah.

接着，你还有奥巴马后来在斯坦福胡佛研究所那场著名的演讲，他在演讲中说，为了维护民主，我们将实施某种程度的审查。

And then you had his you had Obama's subsequent, like, the notorious speech at Hoover at Stanford where he talks about in order to preserve democracy, we're going to have basically, he says we're gonna have have censorship

对。

Right.

为了维护民主，或者不管民主到底是什么。

In order to preserve democracy or whatever democracy is.

对于不知道我们在说什么的人，我们是在谈《史密斯法案》吗？

For people that don't know what we're talking about, we're relating to the Smith act?

大家总是聚焦在史密斯-蒙特法案上。

The Smith Munt everybody focuses on Smith Munt.

好的。

Okay.

但当我研究史密斯-蒙特法案时，我们在三年前的Substack上写过一篇相关的文章，因为当时在我们这一边的替代媒体中，正流行着这样的叙事。

But as I examined Smith Munt, and we did an essay on this in the Substack, you know, like, three years ago, because that was the kind of the narrative that was coming out in, let's say, our side of alternative media.

对。

Right.

在我研究之后，我认为史密斯-蒙特法案的影响要有限得多。

And in my examination, Smith Muntz impact is a lot more limited.

它主要涉及美国之音和其他一些事情。

It has to do with Voice of America and some other things.

在我看来，它对国内宣传的广泛影响并没有人们所认为的那么大。

The broad impact wasn't quite, in my opinion, what was believed to be of of enabling propaganda domestically.

嗯。

Mhmm.

更具体地说，有一项总统指令推动了助推技术，并设立了助推办公室，规定助推技术应由一个

More specifically, there is a presidential directive that nudge technology that established a nudge office, that Nudge Technology shall be used by a

公司。他们并不称它为助推办公室。

company They don't call it a Nudge Office.

对吧？

Right?

他们，我不清楚。

They they I don't know.

它经历了多次迭代，抱歉，我没有最新的版本。

It's it's got they've they've gone through various iterations, and I'm sorry I don't have the latest version.

而且它已经变得分散化了。

And it's kinda become decentralized.

它曾被称为社会与行为科学团队。

It was called the social social and behavioral science team.

我的维基百科上说，这个项目在2017年被叫停了，但在特朗普政府时期又以……继续下去了。

My Wikipedia says that that was stopped in 2017 but continued under the Trump administration under sorry.

美国总务管理局的评估与科学办公室。

The General Services Administration's Office of Evaluation and Science.

就是这样。

There we go.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Boy.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，正如我所说，它已经被分散到许多机构中了。

It's and it's kinda become it's been like I said, it's been pushed out into a lot of the agencies.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们不用那个术语，因为那样就容易被找到。

They don't use that that lexicon because then it's easy to find them.

对。

Right.

他们使用其他委婉语来描述这类活动，但这些做法已经变得正常化了。

And they use there's other euphemisms they use to describe those kinds of activities, but it's become normalized.

宣传的武器化已经变得正常化了。

The the weaponization of propaganda has become normalized.

措辞来自

There's the wording from

最近的心理学科学文章指出，总体行为干预或像OES实施的助推措施已被证明是有效的。

Overall behavioral interventions or nudges like the ones implemented by OES have been found to be effective in recent psychological science article.

研究人员确定了几个感兴趣的政策领域，例如医疗保健。

Researchers identified several policy areas of interest, example, health care.

我们开始了。

Here we go.

2015年实施的。

2015 is when it was implemented.

所以是2015年。

So 2015.

行政命令。

Executive order.

奥巴马总统签署了一项行政命令，要求联邦机构在评估工作中融入行为洞察。

President Obama signs an executive order requiring federal agencies to incorporate behavioral insights into their evaluation efforts.

这听起来像是在说对美国民众使用宣传手段。

That's a nice way of saying the use of propaganda on the American people.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以，非常感谢你把这一点找出来。

And so this this has kinda become thank you so much for for pulling that up.

这非常有帮助。

That's super helpful.

所以，正如我所说，如果我能举例的话，大约四年前，我曾上过英国新闻的节目，那时候他们偶尔会邀请我，但情况很微妙，只有GB新闻愿意找我。

So this this is like I said, if I can illustrate, I was on a Great Britain News broadcast about four years ago at the time when they would you know, I was there was a window time where they would have me on, but it was sketchy, and GB News was the only one that would do it.

但当时的规则是，如果你要邀请一位反对政府叙事的人，就必须在同一节目中安排一位代表政府立场的人。

And but the rules were then that if you were gonna have somebody that was speaking against the government narrative, then you had to have somebody representing the government's interests in the same broadcast.

因此，这实际上是通过英国一个活跃的审查机构来实施的，该机构控制着新闻媒体。

So that's, implemented by basically, The UK has an active censorship organization that controls news media.

于是，我和这位穿着条纹西装、打着领结的英国新闻主持人一起上了节目。

And so I'm on with this guy, Great Britain News, pinstripe, bow tie.

你知道，那感觉简直太糟糕了。

You know, it just reeks.

我在谈论心理战和第七十七旅，这是英国陆军的一部分，属于他们的心理战单位。

And and I'm talking about psychological warfare and the seventy seventh brigade, which is part of the British Army, which is their psychological warfare unit.

这一点非常公开，他们还设立了一个民间分支，雇佣人员在社交媒体上反对政府不认可的叙事。

It's very open that that's the case as is the existence of of a civilian branch that they set up and paid people to do social media in opposition of counter narratives that the government didn't approve of.

我的意思是，现在在斯塔默领导下，他们直接封杀你，把你送进监狱。

I mean, now they just, under Starmer, they just censor you and send you to jail.

他们直接切断

They they just cut

切断

cut

直接绕过中间人。

cut out the middleman.

是的。

Yeah.

但那时候，他们还在某种程度上雇佣平民。

But back then, they were still kinda buying civilians.

所以我在谈论这个。

And so I'm talking about this.

那个人说，是的。

And that's that the the guy says, yeah.

但在英国，我们的信念是，如果政府赢得选举，他们就有权执政。

But here in The UK, our belief is that if the government wins the election, they have the right to govern.

而这种执政权包括我们使用这类技术的能力，我们认为这样做是合理的。

And that right to govern includes our ability to use this type of technology, and we believe that it's justified to do so.

当这场对话发生时，坦白说，我们还没有推出我们的最新出版物《SciWar》。

And that when that conversation happened, frankly, I hadn't we hadn't launched the book yet, SciWar, which is our most recent publication.

所有这些事情在我脑海中突然汇聚在一起，天哪。

And and it just kind of all coalesced in my mind that, oh my god.

马蒂亚斯所讲的关于群体性成瘾的种种，我所看到的，我和你一起经历的，以及我所经历的媒体协同攻击。

What all these things Matthias' teaching about mass formation, what I saw, what I experienced with you, what I experienced with the concerted attacks of the media.

随后，这一观点得到了一份国会报告的验证，该报告提到了例如JuraTicket系统。

And then subsequently, it's been validated by this congressional report that talks about, for instance, the JuraTicket system.

JuraTickets 是一种所有软件公司用来追踪错误和投诉等信息的系统。

JuraTickets are are what it's a system that all the software companies use to track glitches and complaints and stuff like that.

政府建立了自己的 Jira 工单系统，用于记录他们想要审查和压制的人员的活动信息。

Well, the government had their own Jira ticket system set up to log information about activities of persons that they wanted to have censored and suppressed.

他们会用这些信息创建这些工单。

And they would build these juror tickets with information.

因此，国会报告中提到的一件事是我自己其实也被列在一个工单上。

And so one of the things that's out on the congressional report was that I actually had a juror ticket.

我对此感到惊讶，但回头想想，这也不意外。

I was surprised that this is the case or I'm not surprised in retrospect.

我的个人‘罪状’是被列为反疫苗者和保守派。

And and my personal sins were that I was listed as an anti vaxxer and a conservative.

尽管你是一名疫苗学家，同时也是保守派。

Even though you're a vaccinologist and a conservative.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

你不能是保守派。

You can't be conservative.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

我的意思是，现在出来的东西太疯狂了。

I mean, the stuff that's coming out That's wild.

我意思是，即使像Grok这样的工具，去查询某些话题时，你也能发现它们算法构建的防火墙。

It's it's fascinating to query things like grok, even grok, about certain subjects, and and you will find where they have algorithmically built firewalls.

而且你可以接近并检测到它们，因为它们会表现得像个傻子。

And and you can you can approach them and detect them because, it will it will act dumb.

哦，你知道的，它似乎会突然卡住。

Oh, you know, it'll lock up seemingly.

它不会给你那个答案，或者会绕开问题，等等。

It won't give you that answer, or it'll talk around the issue, etcetera, etcetera.

你可以识别出这些被算法内置的东西。

You can identify these things that have been built in algorithmically.

当然，随后我们见证了所有那些披露事件，扎克伯格那场令人抱歉的道歉巡演，你还记得吗？当时他被国会和整个科技圈揭穿了。

And, of course, then we we had all of the disclosures, the Zuckerberg, oh, I'm so sorry apology tour that happened, remember, when basically he got outed by congress, and and the rest of the tech bros.

而推动这一切的导火索是，马斯克决定拿出一大笔钱收购推特。

And, of course, the thing that catalyzed all of that was that Elon decided to pony up a good chunk of change and buy buy Twitter.

我认为这是任何美国公民做出的最具影响力的决定之一。

Which I think is one of the most impactful decisions that any American citizen has ever made.

太惊人了。

Amazing.

如果他没有这么做，我想我们会陷入大麻烦。

If he didn't do that, I think we would be really screwed.

你怎么能对此有不同意见？

There's how how can you debate that?

当你看了推特文件，发现政府在多大程度上参与了压制来自正派教授、德高望重的研究人员——任何不顺从官方叙事的人——的准确信息时，你还能怎么辩解？

How can you debate it when you look at the Twitter files and you find out how much the government was involved in censoring accurate information from legitimate professors, esteemed researchers, anybody who didn't go along with the official narrative.

现在这些事情全都涌出来了，而我们正面对这一切带来的美好变化。

It's it's all coming out now in spades, and and we're dealing now the lovely thing about all of this.

我的观点是，现在美国正处于清晨时分。

I mean, let's let's try to it is morning in America, in my opinion.

很多人变得非常悲观，这个时代确实充满阴暗。

I mean, a lot of people get very dark, and and there's a darkness to the times.

但你知道，别把这个比喻推得太远，新的光明正在到来。

But there's, you know, not to push the metaphor too far, but there there is, new light coming in.

而我们现在能够看清这些，并意识到你我和属于同一代人。

And the fact that we can now see this and we recognize that you and I are of a similar generation.

我的早期记忆之一就是总统遇刺事件。

I mean, one of my earliest memories was the assassination of the president.

从那以后，围绕越南战争的种种宣传，我们一直浸泡在日益精妙的信息操控中。

And all of the propaganda around that, the propaganda around Vietnam War ever since, we've just been swimming in information control that's gotten increasingly sophisticated.

幸运的是，作为美国人，我们随着时间推移逐渐对营销和宣传产生了免疫力，因为我们长期生活在其中，努力分辨什么是真实的，什么是虚假的。

And, fortunately, as Americans, we also kind of have become more and more immune to marketing and propaganda over time because we've been living with it, trying to discern what is real and what is, you know, false.

再说一遍，如果你的工作核心就是如此，我认为关键在于多进行对话，以便能揭开那些胡说八道的真相。

Again, this is if it's a core part of what you do for a living, I think, is is just try to, you know, have conversations to be able to get to the bottom of the bullshit.

但我们一直沉浸其中，现在终于能看清了。

But, that we've we've been swimming in it, and now we can see it.

我们可以看到那些结构——比如人工智能、影响力图谱，以及当前互联网上正在发生的各种尖端技术。

We can see the the structures that, you know, the the power of artificial intelligence and influence mapping and all the things that are going on in the Internet right now that are the cutting cutting edge technology.

它们令人恐惧，因为可能被用来对付我们；但同时也非常酷，因为我们现在能看清这些关系。

They're scary because they could be weaponized against us, but they're also super cool because we can now see those relationships.

如果你想要一个例子，就看看X平台上关于最新爱泼斯坦文件公开后浮现的那些线索，它们揭示了相关的关联网络。

If you want an example of that, look at the the threads that are coming out on x, illuminating the networks of affiliation associated with this latest Epstein file release.

简直令人难以置信。

Just mind blowing.

难以置信。

Mind blowing.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我们就坐在这儿抱怨、发牢骚，说他们没公布这个啊， blah blah blah。

And and it is just just like, you know, we can we can sit here and bitch and whine saying, oh, they didn't release that or blah blah blah.

这些都是被删减过的。

This is this is redacted.

这些都属实。

All that's true.

但即便如此，这些信息的影响，我们仍在逐步揭开真相。

But still, the the impact of of that information, we're still getting to the bottom of it.

它彻底改变了大多数人对事件发生经过的认知。

It's completely changed most people's narrative of what happened.

比如，我们之前只有个模糊的理解，但当你在邮件里看到明确的证据，显示他们在谈论儿童时。

Like, we had this sort of vague understanding, you know, but when you see in the email, like, clear evidence that they're talking about children.

用极其下流的方式。

In in pretty obscene ways.

令人毛骨悚然的方式。

Horrifying ways.

所以，就连我在和迈克·本茨聊这件事时，他也对此感到难以置信。

So that was the thing that, like, even I when I talked to Mike Benz about that, he was sort of incredulous about that.

我觉得他们不会利用孩子。

It's like, I I don't think they would use children.

如果他们被抓住，这根本说不通，但看起来就是

It just doesn't make any sense if they get caught, but it just seems like

是的。

Yeah.

迈克·本茨感到难以置信，这确实很惊人。

If We were Mike Benz was incredulous

我知道。

I know.

这事儿可不小。

That's pretty big.

说实话，直到看到那些文件公布出来，我们才真正明白。

I well, I just don't think we really knew until we saw those files come out.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就意识到，现在再也无法否认了。

And then you go, oh, well, you there's no denying it now.

我对此的看法完全改变了。

My my position on this completely shifted.

我原本以为可能有一些心理异常的人对这种事有胃口，但我直到看到这些文件之前，都没见过任何确凿的证据。

I thought there's probably some really sick people that have an appetite for that, but I hadn't seen any real evidence for it until these files.

现在他们就说，哦，这简直是恶魔的行为。

And now they're like, oh, this is demonic.

这明显是恶魔的行为。

This is clearly demonic.

好的。

The okay.

谢谢你这么说。

So thank you for saying that.

我从小是基督徒，上过圣经学校，参加过青年团契，后来在加利福尼亚中部海岸长大，对这些事有了不同的看法。

I'm somebody who was raised a Christian and went to bible school and that kind of stuff as a kid and youth groups and then growing up in Central Coast Of California, let's say, beard in different ways.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但过去六七年里我们所经历的这些事，很难用其他语言来描述我们在世界上所观察到的现象，只能用神学的语言。

But the experiences that we've encountered over the last half a dozen years, it's hard to come up with a language to express what we're observing in the world other than than the language of theology.

通过行为来界定是恶魔的。

Well, demonic by action.

无论恶魔是否存在，如果它们真的存在，它们的行为就是这样。

So whether or not demons exist, if they did exist, that is how they would behave.

它们会欺凌儿童，折磨儿童。

They would prey on children and torture children.

还有一件事，有人提议一个孩子在向耶稣祷告时，有人开玩笑说应该打扮成耶稣的样子。

And there was the one where there was a suggestion where that a child was praying to Jesus that, like, there was a joke that someone should dress up like Jesus.

我我，乔，你看到那个了吗？

I'm I'm Did you see that one, Joe?

我没在看

I'm I'm not I'm not watching

我根本不想看这些东西。

this stuff from want to.

我甚至不希望别人发给我，然后我就说，好吧。

I don't even want people send it to me, and I go, okay.

因为大部分时间我都远离社交媒体。

Because I'm, for for the most part, off social media.

但偶尔会有人发给我一些我不得不看的东西。

But every now and then, someone will send me something that I have to look at.

我心想，天哪。

I'm like, oh my god.

是的。

Yeah.

这些是来回的邮件。

And these are these are emails back and forth.

其中有一条是爱泼斯坦说，他享受过虐待视频。

There's one of them where Epstein says, I enjoyed the torture video.

还有很多关于披萨的提及，这些百分之百都是某种暗语。

There's these references to pizza, a lot of references to pizza that are 100% some kind of a code.

是的。

Yeah.

然后这就把你带回了披萨门事件，是吧。

And then it brings you back to Pizzagate Yeah.

而那个事件当时被广泛驳斥。

And which was widely dismissed.

你知道的。

You know?

大家都说，哦，这是一群怪人。

Everybody's like, oh, this is a bunch of kooks.

就在这里。

Here it is.

她说她躺在床上时感受到了上帝的同在。

She said she felt God's presence next to her when she was in bed.

她知道耶稣在守护着她，耶稣帮助了她，救了她的命。

She knows that Jesus watches over her, and he helps her save he helped save her life.

然后他写道：哎呀。

And then he writes, whoops.

接着，杰弗里·爱泼斯坦说：你去见她的时候应该打扮成他的样子。

And then in response, Jeffrey Epstein says, you should dress up as him when you see her.

这真是太黑暗了。

It it is it is dark.

你去见她的时候应该打扮成耶稣的样子。

You should dress up like Jesus when you see her.

什么？！

What the fuck?

而且，你看这条线。

And well, look at the line.

你在说

You're talking about

一个瞎眼的小孩的耶稣。

a little kid's blind Jesus.

在它上面。

Above it.

我该怎么理解我来了的把戏？

How am I how am I supposed to interpret I'm coming trick?

哦，耶稣，我来了的把戏。

The o h Jesus, I'm coming trick.

这只是整个事情，所以我们看到这种黑暗。

It's just the the whole thing but so so we see this darkness.

它涉及学术界、科学界、工业界和政界的领导人。

It involves leaders in academe, in science, in industry, in politics.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我记得在过去的六年里，有一段时间有一支摄制组来到我的农场，想拍一些片段。

And and it it just you know, I I remember a point in this arc of the last six years where a film crew came onto my farm and wanted to shoot some segments.

他们在谈论这些事，老实说，我觉得这简直是疯话。

And they were talking this and frankly, I thought it was crazy talk.

我笑了笑，尽量保持礼貌和友善，没有直接反驳他们关于新世界秩序的说法。

I kind of smiled and and, you know, tried to be civil and nice, not contradict them, about the new world order.

然后有一天，我妻子突然跟我说，嘿。

And and then along comes you know, then my wife one day says, hey.

你该去看看克劳斯·施瓦布写的那本书。

You ought to look at this book from Klaus Schwab.

书名叫《新世界秩序》。

It's called the New World Order.

什么？

Like, what?

我的意思是，他只是

I mean, he was just

说出来。

saying it out loud.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，世界经济论坛曾经投放过广告，说你会一无所有，但你会很开心。

I mean, the World Economic Forum had those ads where they were saying, you will own nothing, and you'll be happy.

对。

Yeah.

这还得追溯到现任英国国王，正是他率先推动了这一理念。

And and it goes back to the current king of England was the guy that kinda launched that.

他是第一个真正开始谈论你可以用你最喜欢的AI去自行查证这件事的人。

He was the first one to be really talking about that you can if you you can goo use your use your favorite AI and track it down yourself.

我最近不太喜欢用谷歌来搜索东西。

I prefer not to use Google these days to try to find stuff.

但我们看到一个又一个领域，信息都被精心策划和操控。

But it it we see vertical after vertical after vertical after vertical where information has been crafted and manipulated.

而那种使人们失去合法性的相同手段，比如指责你是阴谋论者，或者你是被操控的反对派，这又是另一个常用的伎俩。

And the same tools of of delegitimization, of promotion of these messages that you are a conspiracy theorist or that you are controlled opposition is another favorite one.

很多这种手法早在六十年代就被联邦调查局用来对付各种抗议运动，你可以回溯并追踪这些历史。

A lot of this was pioneered in the sixties by the FBI against the various protest movements, and you can go back and track that.

明白？

K?

那种暗中将人塑造为合作者的叙事被称为‘披上坏外套’，它有一套专门的语言和操作规程，用于分化运动。

The the the narrative of being a a collaborator surreptitiously is called bad jacketing, and and it has its own its own language and and protocols for how to do this to people to divide movements.

我们正处在这个时代，我的意思是，从某种角度看，这是一个辉煌的时刻——各种社会压力在当下这个我们恰好生活的时间点上汇聚在一起。

We're we're we're in this I mean, in a way, it's kind of a glorious moment where you we're having a huge amount of social pressures coming together in this moment in time that you and I happen to live in.

这难道不是很棒吗？

How fantastic is that?

能身处这样一个充满巨变、社会互动、压力以及不同意识形态激烈竞争的时代，而我们正游弋其中，这多么令人感慨。

To be at a point in time where there is so much change, There's so much social interaction and pressure and competition between these different philosophies, and and we're swimming in it.

我每天都在Substack上写文章，因为这是我如今谋生的方式——我已无法再从事过去的工作了，这简直就像个孩子进了糖果店。

I from as as somebody writes on a daily basis these essays on Substack because that's how I make my living now because I can't do what I used to do, it's it's you're a kid in a candy shop.

腐败太严重了。

There there's so much corruption.

有太多虚假信息在被传播。

There's so much falsehood being promoted.

这种对现实的操控太多了。

There's so much of this manipulation of of reality.

所以，如果你从事帮助人们理解这一切的工作——这正是我现在在做的，

And so if if you're in the business of of trying to help people to make sense out of that, which is kinda what I do now for a

为了谋生，

living,

你知道，我每天早上醒来。

it's, you know, I wake up every morning.

我会收到人们的反馈。

People I get the feedback.

你是怎么想出这么多点子的？

How do you come up with all these ideas?

我心想，你怎么可能不这么做呢？

I'm like, how do you not?

你只需要睁大眼睛就行了。

All you gotta do is keep your eyes open.

是的。

Yeah.

现在搜索根本不难。

It's not hard to search anymore.

你之前提到过伊维菌素。

So so you talked about ivermectin.

我的意思是，伊维菌素的故事还在继续。

I mean, the ivermectin story is is still ongoing.

前几天卫生与公共服务部宣布，将启动新举措，调查伊维菌素在癌症治疗中的应用。

There was an announcement the other day from HHS that they are launching new initiatives to investigate the use of ivermectin in cancer.

随后立即引发了强烈反弹，肿瘤科医生们表示愤怒。

And there was immediate blowback along the lines of oncologists are outraged.

你知道，这个说法是博比，虽然没有明说，但基本上就是博比·肯尼迪又一次在散布虚假信息和阴谋论，说我们都会死，因为科学家们要研究伊维菌素和其他药物的使用。

You know, the narrative is Bobby you know, not saying this explicitly, but, basically, Bobby Kennedy is at it once again promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories, and it's gonna you know, we're all gonna die because because scientists are gonna investigate the use of ivermectin and and other drugs.

那为什么是伊维菌素呢？

So why ivermectin?

这才是核心问题，也是让我百思不得其解的一点。

So this is the this is the core question, and this is one of the things that puzzled me to no end.

我明白他们之所以生气，是因为我没打疫苗就康复了，而且我是个受欢迎的、有名的人，还拍了一个关于节目取消的视频。

I understood that they were upset that I had gotten better without the use of the vaccine, that I was a popular person, that I was a famous person, and I made a video about a canceled show.

我和戴夫·查普尔本来要一起做一档节目，我拍了那个视频，告诉大家我因为感染了新冠没法参加节目。

Dave Chappelle and I were supposed to do a show, and I made that video to let everyone know that I couldn't do the show because I had COVID.

我根本没想到这会引发争议，但我列出了我服用的一堆东西。

I had no idea it was going to be even controversial, but I listed a bunch of things that I took.

结果事情爆发了

And the shit hit

了。

the fan.

我谈到了静脉注射维生素。

I talked about IV vitamins.

是的。

Yeah.

我谈到了单克隆抗体。

I talked about monoclonal antibodies.

我谈到了

I talked about

哪些是

Which were

被允许的？

allowed?

泼尼松。

Prednisone.

是的。

Yeah.

我提到的这些东西，Z Pak。

All these things that I talked about, Z Pak.

我谈到了我服用过的所有这些不同的东西。

I talked about all these different things that I took.

这些事情根本没有被提及。

There was no mention of any of those things.

只提到了伊维菌素，这真的让我很困惑。

There was only ivermectin, and that's what really puzzled me.

我当时就想，这太有意思了，因为我列出了很多不同的东西，但并没有对单克隆抗体进行污名化，只是让他们变得很难获得，最后还撤下了。

I was like, this is fascinating because I listed a bunch of different things, but there was no demonization of monoclonal antibodies, but they did make them much harder to get and eventually pulled them.

我有个朋友，他朋友住院时，一进医院就不给用单克隆抗体。

So I I have a friend, and his friend was in the hospital, and they wouldn't administer monoclonal antibodies once he got into the hospital.

他们根本不允许他使用这些药。

They wouldn't allow him to have them.

医院里发生的事是另一回事了。

What went on in the hospital is a whole another thing.

但你可能疯了。

But you might crazy.

但所以所以为什么。

But so so the the why.

为什么，就是那种药物。

The why, that one medication.

我能抓住的只有两条线索：伊维菌素是一种神奇的药物。

The only two threads that I can pull on it all is that ivermectin is a miracle drug.

我的意思是，诺贝尔奖。

I mean, Nobel Prize.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

我们还不完全理解它是如何起作用的。

We don't understand completely how it works.

在这种情况下，它似乎并没有发挥抗病毒的作用。

In this case, it doesn't seem to be working as an antiviral.

它似乎作为一种免疫刺激剂、促炎因子或以某种微妙的方式增强免疫反应，因为它对那些具有免疫反应成分的病原体具有广泛的抑制作用。

It seems to be working as an immuno immune stimulant, pro inflammatory or or pro immune response in some way that's subtle because it has this broad spectrum of activity against things that have an immune response component in controlling.

但它的专利已经过期了。

But it's off patent.

是的。

Right.

他们并不理解它。

They don't understand it.

它已经过期，而人们对它的反应却像是它对某些商业利益构成了重大威胁。

It's off patent, and it it the response is as if it represents a significant threat to some business interests.

很难分辨这一点。

It's hard to discern that.

你提到了Z包。

And you mentioned Z Pak.

这是另一个非常有趣的现象。

So that's another fascinating one.

说它只是伊维菌素，伊维菌素最突出，但实际上他们成功地遏制了阿奇霉素和羟氯喹的使用。

To say that it was only ivermectin, ivermectin was the most prominent, but they were actually effective in shutting down the the Z Pak, the use of hydroxychloroquine.

羟氯喹有一个非常引人注目的故事。

And hydroxychloroquine has a fascinating story.

当你提到阿奇霉素时，你指的是泽伦科医生。

When you mention Z Pak, you're talking about Zev Zelenko.

泽伦科是写信给总统的人，说：嘿。

And Zev was the one that wrote the letter to the president saying, hey.

这里有这些关于这种已过专利期药物的数据和信息。

Here's this data and this information about this drug that is off patent.

我们在使用这种药物方面积累了丰富的经验。

We have a huge portfolio of experience in using it.

数以百万计的剂量。

Millions and millions of doses.

它在孕期使用是安全的。

It's safe in pregnancy.

这里有什么不好的吗？

What's not to like here?

这个故事非常有趣，是一个缩影，因为它可以追溯到拉尔夫·巴里克。

And and the story of that is is a fascinating microcosm because it goes back to Ralph Barack.

拉尔夫·巴里克多年前就发表过相关研究，他是冠状病毒领域的权威，有充分理由认为他对这种特定病毒的工程设计有深远影响。

Ralph Barack had published that back years ago when you know, he's he's kind of the guru of coronaviruses, and a good case can be made that he had his fingers all over the engineering of this particular virus.

因此，他曾发表过这种药物对冠状病毒有效的研究。

So he had published that this drug was effective against coronaviruses.

而现已去世的泽夫·泽伦科，曾努力寻找方法帮助纽约的新冠患者康复和治疗。

And Zev Zelenko, who's passed away now, got engaged in trying to find some way to help his patients in New York with recovering from COVID and treating COVID.

他回溯了巴里克的研究，从中发现了被推荐的药物——羟氯喹，写信给总统推荐它，并开始积累临床经验。

And he went back, did a deep dive into into Barrick's work, pulled out this drug, hydroxychloroquine that had been recommended, wrote to the president about it, start he got clinical experience with it.

顺便提一下，米基·威利斯目前正在为泽夫做传记，我也参与其中。

And, you know, caveat, Mickey Willis is doing a bio on ZEV now, and I'm involved in that.

所以这是利益冲突。

So conflict of interest.

但正是他把这种药提出来，并带着自己的临床经验给总统写了信。

But he was the one that pulled it out, sent the letter to the president with his clinical experience.

总统委派彼得·纳瓦罗负责采购这种药物，而彼得，这位经济学家，立刻行动起来。

President tasked Peter Navarro with sourcing the drug for the and and Peter, economist, went to town.

我记得当时我所在的公司Olkham接到了彼得的电话。

I remember, the company I was working with, Olkham, at the time getting a call from Peter.

你们能不能想办法在国内增加这种药物的产量？

Can you come up with some way to make more of this drug here domestically?

我们希望采购足够多的剂量，让每个人都能用上。

We wanna source it so we have enough doses for everybody.

然后我认为《柳叶刀》发表了一篇数据完全造假的论文，诋毁这种药物，说它有毒、无效，诸如此类。

And then I think it was Lancet published this paper that had totally made up data that trashed the drug, said that it's toxic, doesn't work, blah blah blah blah blah.

这一切都是假的。

It was all fake.

K？

K?

当人们发现这篇论文基于虚构的数据，且是美国顶级医学期刊之一发布的宣传材料时，它被撤回了。

They pulled the paper when it became revealed that it was based on nonexistent data, that it was more propaganda published in one of the top medical journals in The United States.

但到那时，它已经被彻底摧毁了。

But by that time, it was completely crushed.

所以他们不必再去针对ZStack。

So they didn't have to go after ZStack.

他们已经把ZStack搞垮了。

They'd already killed ZStack.

不过，伊维菌素是一个新的威胁。

Ivermectin, though, that was a new threat.

它之所以构成威胁，原因之一是科克伦团队完成了一项荟萃分析。

And one of the reasons why it was a threat was there was a meta analysis that had been done at the Cochrane.

英国的科克伦研究所是药物和生物制剂荟萃分析的权威机构。

So the Cochrane Institute in The UK is like, you know, the holy grail for analysis of drugs in biologics and this process of meta analysis.

他们基本上制定了如何操作的规则。

They kinda they kinda wrote the rules for how to do it.

他们做了一项分析，显示伊维菌素非常有效。

And they had done an analysis that showed that ivermectin was quite effective.

然后发生了一些事情。

And then something happened.

有人施加了影响。

And there was some influence exerted.

突然间，那项荟萃分析被压制了。

And suddenly that meta analysis got quenched.

它被压垮了。

It got squashed.

有两位研究者参与了这项工作。

There were two investigators that were involved in building that.

其中一个隐退了，拿到了一大笔资助，继续做学术工作。

One kinda went underground and and got a big grant and carried on as an academic.

另一个则非常愤怒，于是创建了一个名为世界卫生委员会的组织。

The other one got so pissed off that she created this organization called the World Council for Health.

她就是特丝·洛里。

That's Tess Lohrey.

她真的对发生的事情表示反对，但伊维菌素，你知道，那里确实有某种迹象。

And she really objected to what happened, but ivermectin, you know, there was a signal there.

那里有明确的迹象。

There was a clear signal there.

有数据支持这一迹象，但随后发生了某些事情，导致这项荟萃分析被重新调整。

There was data supporting that signal, and then something happened to cause that meta analysis to be restructured.

一些显示伊维菌素有效的研究被剔除，同时来自印度的数据也被压制。

And certain studies that were showing how effective it was to be thrown out and then the suppression of the data coming out of India.

你还记得吗？

You remember that?

是的。

Mhmm.

北方邦。

Uttar Pradesh.

还有北方邦。

And and Uttar Pradesh.

而且我觉得，事情已经闹得人尽皆知，他们再也压不住了。

And and and it I guess it had kinda it's like the cat was out of the bag, and they had trouble putting him back in.

所以我的感觉是，他们加大了宣传和审查的力度，试图压住这件事。

So they just my sense is they turned up the amplitude on the on the propaganda and the censorship in order to try to overcome this.

而且我确实记得，当初是谁持有原始专利？

And and I'm pretty sure remember who was it that held the original patent?

默克公司。

Merck.

我当时以DITRA观察员的身份参与了由NIH基金会主导、默克公司大力资助的临床试验，如今该基金会由前默克疫苗负责人朱莉·格伯丁领导。

Now I was involved as an observer on behalf of of DITRA to the active trials that were going on under the foundation for NIH, is sponsored in a significant way by Merck and which is now headed up by the former head of Merck vaccines, Julie Gerberding.

鲍比没法把她赶走。

Bobby can't get her out.

这是规定。

It's the rules.

他们正在开展这些临床试验，包括通过调整剂量等方式，得出伊维菌素无效的结果的那项试验。

And they were running these clinical trials, including the clinical trial that essentially by tweaking the dosing, etcetera, made it so that they came up with a result suggesting that ivermectin is not effective.

在‘为什么’这一部分，存在大量操纵行为。

There there was a whole lot of manipulation in the why part.

不过，我听到的最好解释是，这与一个风险有关：如果存在有效的应对措施，那么利用《预备法案》和应急应对措施程序来快速推进这些新型疫苗的审批就不再有效，因为规定是：如果已有应对措施，就不能启用这些条款。

Still, the best explanation I've heard is that it had a lot to do with the risk that if there was an effective countermeasure, then the utilization of the PREP Act and the emergency countermeasures to process to enable fast tracking of these vaccines using this new technology would no longer be valid because those are the rules is if there's an existing countermeasure, then you can't implement those clauses.

所以这完全关乎紧急使用授权。

So it's all about emergency use authorization.

我不确定是不是这样。

It it's the I don't know that that's the case.

就是这样。

It's it is.

这是它

It's It

当你看到他们如何……时，这根本说不通

only didn't make sense when you see how

他们赚了巨额利润。

much profit they made.

简直多得惊人。

Like Which which was enormous.

惊人。

Enormous.

所以它是有效的。

So it was effective.

而且确实如此。

And Yeah.

所有这些宣传，无论怎样揭露他们和他们的手段，他们都赚了数千亿美元。

All that propaganda, regardless of how much exposed them and exposed their methods, they made hundreds of billions of dollars.

它

It

嗯，这一切中最丑陋的部分。

well, and and that that the ugliest part of all of this.

我的意思是，当我跟那些还在犹豫不决、试图弄明白这一切的人交谈时，你会发现，这样的人还有很多。

I mean, people the big big picture when I talk to people that are still kind of on the fence trying to make sense out of it, you know, there's still a lot of those folks out there.

真正进入他们脑海的是，现代历史上最大规模的财富向上转移发生在新冠疫情期间。

The the thing that kinda gets into their brain is the greatest upward transfer of wealth in modern history occurred during COVID.

是的。

Yeah.

这不仅仅是疫苗的事。

It wasn't just the vaccines.

而是整个体系。

It was the whole enterprise.

包括封锁措施。

With the lockdowns.

封锁、对小企业的打压、对经济的破坏、刺激计划——他们至今仍在摆脱这一切的欺诈后果。

Lockdowns, all the the what was done to small businesses, what was done to the economy, the stimulus packages, they're still digging out of all that fraud.

你知道，事后看来，对于那些只是想吃饱饭、付得起房租的普通人来说，回望一下他们究竟被怎样对待了。

It it you know, in retrospect, for for average folks that are just trying to put food on the table and pay their rent, to look at, in retrospect, what was, you know, quite literally done to them.

中产阶级在极短的时间内被掏空了。

The middle class was hollowed out in, like, on hyper speed.

所以，是的，我到现在还是对此非常愤怒。

This so, yeah, I'm still pissed off about this.

不。

No.

你应该感到愤怒。

You should be.

问题是

The thing

足够多的人没有意识到，太多人对此置之不理。

is not enough people are and so many people let it go.

而人们对此不愤怒的部分原因，是因为他们打了疫苗，想要为自己的决定找借口。

And part of the reason why not enough people are pissed off about it is because they took the vaccine, and they wanna justify their decision.

你会遇到很多人做出这种笼统的宣称，说疫苗拯救了数百万人的生命，他们就这么简单地说。

And you will talk to a lot of people that make this blanket claim, the vaccine saved millions of lives, and they'll just say that.

是的。

Yeah.

当你说到

And when you say

这和‘安全有效’一样，都是宣传话术。

That's the propaganda along with fault with safe and effective.

这是一个被推广的叙事。

That was a promoted narrative.

没错。

And Right.

顺便说一句，诺贝尔奖委员会授予卡里科和魏斯曼奖项的理由是，他们所研发的产品发挥了核心作用。

That was, by the way, the rationale given by the Nobel Prize Committee to award to Carriquel and Weissman was that these products which they had the the thesis is they had been playing the central role.

我不同意。

I disagree.

我认为彼得·卡利斯才应该是得奖的人。

I think Peter Cullis is the one that should have got it.

如果你要因为这些疫苗颁奖，那真正起到关键作用的技术是彼得·卡利斯和他的UBC团队。

If you're gonna give it for if you're gonna give it for these vaccines, it was Peter Cullis and his team at UBC that really was an enabling tech.

但无论如何，决定已经做出了。

But be that as it may, the decision's made.

委员会说，基本上，数百万条生命因此得救。

And the committee said, basically, you know, millions of lives have been saved.

而在这个时候颁发这个诺贝尔奖，我们希望它能促进更多人接受这种产品。

And by giving this Nobel at this time, we are we hope that it will promote more people to accept this product.

当时明确给出的逻辑就是如此，这反映了真正的推动力。

That that was explicitly the logic given at the time, and that reflects what was really a thrust vector.

乔，你知道吗，自从我们上次见面以来，这个世界变得多么荒谬。

Joe, I I've you know, it's what a bizarre world since we met.

确实如此。

Very.

所以我被卷入了所谓的欧洲中间偏右阵营，这其实是个误称，因为在我看来，他们全是社会主义者，比如乔吉奥·马洛尼和其他所有人。

And and so I've been sucked into to call it the center right of Europe is a little bit of a misnomer because they're all socialists as far as I'm concerned, Giorgio Maloney and everybody else.

但你知道，与极左派相比，他们却被贴上新纳粹的标签。

But, you know, compared to the far left, they're labeled as neo Nazis.

但我一直往返欧洲，与这些人互动交流。

But I've been traveling to Europe, interacting with these people.

你以为我们这边已经够糟了。

You think it was bad for us.

欧盟、英国和加拿大的情况糟糕得多。

The European Union, The UK, and the Canada were order of magnitude worse.

我们真该感恩自己生活在这个时代、这个国家，还能保有像第一和第二修正案这样基本的宪法权利。

That we we we should be so grateful that we live in this country at this time and that we still have something like a functioning constitution with the first and second amendment.

看看澳大利亚和新西兰那些可怜的人吧。

Look at the poor suckers in Australia and New Zealand.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，要提醒自己，这里的情况本可能糟糕得多，而欧洲曾经糟糕得多。

You know, it remind yourself, it could be a heck of a lot worse here, and it has been a heck of a lot worse in in Europe.

我在罗马尼亚有个朋友，是主要反对党的成员，他们管自己叫中间偏右，但最近，我觉得是副总统出来明确说，上一次选举被操纵了。

I've got buddies in Romania in the leading alternative party, you know, calling it center right, let's say, but that, you know, recently, I think it was the vice president that came out and said specifically that that last election was stolen.

这事发生在罗马尼亚。

It was in in Romania.

格奥尔格斯库被试图关进监狱，理由是，我觉得是TikTok支持了他的竞选，而TikTok被俄罗斯资助了。

Georgescu, they tried to put in jail, and the logic was that, I think it was TikTok supporting his campaign had been sponsored by the Russians.

这和他们对付特朗普的‘通俄门’把戏一模一样。

It was the same game that they played against Trump of Russian collusion.

他们在罗马尼亚成功地用了这一套手法。

They played that same book in Romania successfully.

但在欧盟环境下，欧洲理事会根本没什么宪法可言，他们可以直接介入，把你关进监狱，取消你的参选资格，想干嘛就干嘛，只要你对现有体制构成民粹主义威胁。

But in the European Union environment under the European Council, they they don't you know, they ain't got a constitution, and they can just step right in and and throw you in jail, inactivate your candidacy, do whatever if you represent a populist threat to the existing structure.

我们总在说‘深层政府’，但其实你懂的，它根本不是那么回事。

We talk about the deep state, but it's it it doesn't you know?