#2461 - 小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪

这是一个活着的迷人时代。

It's a fascinating time to be alive.

你知道的？

You know?

关于你入行前对这份工作的预期，和实际成为什么样之间的差距，你刚入行时有什么期待？

As far as what you thought this job was gonna be before you get in before you got in and what it became, what what was your expectations when you got in?

比如，有什么事情真的让你感到惊讶吗？

Like, did it would did anything really surprise you?

我的意思是，我尽量在生活的每个部分都保持无期待，只专注于每天具体在做什么。

I mean, know, I try to go into every part of my life without expectations and and just focus on really narrowly on what I'm doing day by day.

这实际上让我更有韧性，因为如果你没有期待，就不会有失望，也就永远不会被击垮。

And that actually makes me a lot more resilient because if you don't have expectations, you never get disappointments and so you can never get crushed.

但我想说的是。

And I'm but I would say that.

你知道，我过去并没有花很多时间跟共和党人相处。

You know, I had not spent a lot of my life hanging out with Republicans.

我想象他们谈论的内容，恰恰与现在相反——我现在所在的政府团队中，围绕着一群极其优秀且充满理想主义的人。

And what I imagine that they were talking about is exactly the opposite of, you know, now I'm in an administration that surrounded by immensely talented people and and they're immensely idealistic.

我一直以为共和党人聚在一起时，会想着怎么坑害穷人、怎么给富人减税，但事实上，他们只是专注于如何解决这些重大问题、如何让国家有效运转。

And, you know, nobody I always imagined that Republicans would get together and they'd be thinking about how do we screw the poor and how do we, you know, reduce the And tax on the all they're they're just narrowly focused on how do we solve these big problems and how do we make our country work.

我在白宫和我所在机构的各个层级所看到的理想主义程度，令人深受鼓舞。

And the level of idealism that I see at every level in the White House and, you know, in my agency is inspiring.

而我身边这些人所展现出的能力和专业素养，也让我印象深刻。

And then the level of of the capabilities, just the, you know, the competence of the people who I'm surrounded with that.

最让我震惊的是，这个机构竟然如此糟糕，效率低下到令人难以置信，似乎没人关心人们正在越来越生病。

I think the thing that shocked me most was how bad the agency was, how you know, just how inefficient and nobody seemed to care that people were getting sicker and sicker.

没人对这样一个事实负责：我们是卫生机构，却拥有世界上最富裕的资源，同时却有着最糟糕的健康成果。

Nobody was taking accountability of the fact we're the health agency and yet we have the worst health and the richest health agency in the world.

如果看预算规模，卫生与公共服务部（HHS）几乎是世界上第六大‘国家’。

I think HHS is the sixth biggest country in the world if you look at its budget.

它的预算规模是联邦政府中最大的，甚至超过了国防预算。

It's got the biggest budget in the federal government, bigger than the defense budget.

但我们在这方面却做得极其糟糕。

And yet we are absolutely miserable at what we did.

我的意思是，我们正眼睁睁看着悬崖，每个美国人都在走向困境，77%的美国青少年无法达到参军标准。

I mean, you know, we're literally presiding over this cliff where every American is getting where people are just 77 of American kids can't qualify for military service.

没人问过为什么会这样吗？

Nobody's asking why is that happening?

我小时候，一个典型的儿科医生在四十年或五十年的职业生涯中可能只会遇到一例儿童糖尿病病例。

We've gone when I was a kid, the the typical pediatrician would see one case of juvenile diabetes over a forty or fifty year career.

如今，38%的青少年患有糖尿病或前期糖尿病。

Today, thirty eight percent of teens are diabetic or pre diabetic.

也就是说，每三个走进他诊室的孩子中就有一个。

So one out of every three kids who walks through his office door.

为什么没人注意到自闭症发病率从1970年的一万分之一飙升至今？当时人们都清楚自闭症是什么。

Why isn't anybody noticing as the autism rates have gone from one in ten thousand in 1970 and people knew what autism was.

1970年的时候，人们都知道自闭症是什么样子。

They knew what it looked like in 1970.

他们进行了历史上规模最大的流行病学研究，以回答这个问题：患病率是多少？结果发现是每万人中有0.8例。

They did the biggest epidemiological study in history to answer the question what is the percentage and they came up with zero point eight per ten thousand.

也就是说，不到万分之一，而今天已经上升到每三十一人中就有一例。

So less than one in ten thousand and today it's one in thirty one.

在加利福尼亚州，比例是每十九人中就有一例，男孩更是达到每十二点五人中就有一例。

In California it's one in nineteen and one in twelve point five boys.

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

我们确实，你知道，这太不可思议了。

We are, you know That's so crazy.

每十二点五个男孩就有一例，这太疯狂了。

One in twelve point five boys is crazy.

当我叔叔当总统的时候，那时我十岁，我们在慢性病上的投入是零，一分钱都没有。

And when my uncle was president, know, I was a 10 year old boy, we spent zero on chronic disease, zero.

而今天，我们每年的支出高达四万三千亿美元。

And today we spend $4,300,000,000,000 a year.

这是联邦预算中增长最快的项目，当我们无法持续负担时，它就变成了生存问题。

And it's the fastest growing item in the federal budget And it's existential when we can't sustain it.

共和党和民主党多年来一直在争论，我们是应该实行单一支付的奥巴马医改，还是其他方案。

And the Republicans and Democrats have been arguing for years about whether we do the single payer Obamacare or this or that.

这一切都是关于投钱。

It's all about throwing money.

我们把钱投进一个彻底崩溃的系统里，谁来保留这些钱？

Who gets to keep the money that we're throwing in a system that's completely broken?

这并不是

It's not a

一个医疗体系。

health care system.

人们变得越来越病重。

Getting sicker and sicker.

是的。

Yep.

这就像在泰坦尼克号上挪动甲板椅子。

It's like changing deck chairs on the Titanic.

为什么没人关注如何让人们保持健康？

Why is nobody focusing on how do we get people healthy?

因为这才是解决医疗成本问题的方法。

Because that's how you solve the health care cost problem.

如今，你缴纳的每一分钱联邦税中，有40美分流向了医疗保健，其中约90%用于治疗慢性病。

Right now, 40¢ out of every dollar that you spend in federal taxes is going to to health care, and about 90% of that is chronic disease.

所以，很明显，美国人并不想生病。

So, you know, it's clear and Americans don't want to be sick.

你知道，他们是被逼得生病的。

You know, they're being made sick.

儿童肥胖率从我小时候的5%上升到了现在的近20%。

They're being the obesity rates have gone from five percent in kids when I was a kid now close to twenty percent.

而在成年人中，70%的人属于肥胖或超重。

And in adults, seventy percent of adults are obese or overweight.

我们小时候可不是这样。

That was not true when we were kids.

这并不是因为美国人变得懒惰、懈怠或饥饿。

And it's not because Americans got indolent or lazy or hungry.

而是因为他们被大规模毒害了。

It's because they were being mass poisoned.

而且，那些靠让我们生病赚钱的利益集团，确实靠让我们生病赚钱。

And, you know, the the vested interests that are making money on keeping everybody makes money on keeping us sick.

食品公司靠让我们生病赚钱，而制药公司则靠让我们长期生病赚钱。

The food companies make money on getting us sick, but pharma makes money on keeping us sick.

你可能会以为保险公司希望我们保持健康，但事实并非如此。

The insurance might you would think insurance would want to keep you well, but it doesn't.

实际上，病人越多，它们赚的钱就越多。

It actually makes more money if more people are sick.

医院也是如此。

The hospitals.

为什么？

Why?

保险公司怎么会在人们生病时赚更多钱？

How does the insurance company make more money if people are sick?

嗯，你可以这样想。

Well, I mean, think of it this way.

如果你是劳合社。

If you're Lloyds of London.

你是希望只有一艘船，而你承保了整个海洋的所有船只？

Do you want one ship and you're you're insuring all the ships in the ocean?

你是希望每年只有一艘船沉没，还是希望有一千艘沉没？

Do you want one ship to sink a year or do you want a thousand to sink?

如果有一千艘沉没，每个人都会支付保费来为自己防范这种可能性。

If a thousand sink, everybody's going to be paying you premiums to insure themselves against that eventuality.

而你则从这种摩擦中获利。

And you're making money on the friction.

所以你赚的是进入这个系统的钱。

So you're making the money that comes into this.

你赚的是流入这个体系的资金。

You're making your money on the money that comes to the system.

你把资金规模推得越大，赚得就越多。

And the more that you pump up that volume of money, the more you make.

所以，你知道，没人感兴趣。

So, you know, nobody is interested.

没有人有经济动力去让人变健康，除非我们把经济激励与我们期望的健康结果对齐——那就是没人生病。

Nobody is economically incentivized to make people well, and we are not going to get well until we align those economic incentives with the health outcomes that we want, which is nobody gets sick.

我们终结了慢性病流行，而这正是我们现在正在做的。

We end the chronic disease epidemic, and that's what we're doing now.

我们正试图重新调整那些奖励你的扭曲激励机制。

We're trying to realign all those perverse incentives that reward you.

比如，医疗系统采用按服务收费的方式支付。

Example, the medical system pays out on fee based service.

这意味着医生为你做的检查越多，开的药越多，与你接触越多，他就越有钱。

That means at the more tests the doctor orders for you, the more drugs he prescribes you, the more contact he has with you, the richer he gets.

他根本没有动力让你康复。

Oh, he is not incentivized to get you well.

我们应该在年初给他一笔固定费用，并告诉他：这一年里，任何来自这位病人的医疗支出都从你自己的口袋里出。

We ought to be paying him a flat fee at the beginning of the year and saying anything, any cause from this patient the rest of the year come out of your pocket.

然后他会想，我怎么才能让这个人不生病呢？

And then he's like, Okay, how do I get this guy from getting sick?

于是他开始研究营养学书籍，你知道的？

And he started studying nutrition books and you know?

这其实是个有趣的想法。

That's actually an interesting idea.

但目前系统已经被牢牢锁定住了。

It seems so captured at this point.

要解开这一切将会非常困难。

It's gonna be difficult to unravel all that.

这很难，但并非不可能，而且我们正在做。

It it's difficult, but it's not impossible, and we're doing it.

明白吗？

Know?

但三年后，你会看到一种不同的医疗模式

But three years from now, you're gonna see a different health care model

在我们国家。

in our country.

谈论这个问题会产生很大影响，因为大多数人根本不知道整个系统是如何运作的，以及它到底哪里出了问题。

Talking about it has a big impact because most people are just not aware of how the whole system works and what is actually wrong with it.

你知道，大多数人只是听说而已。

You know, most people just hear about it.

医疗保健，人们生病了。

Health care, people are sick.

他们需要医疗保健。

They need health care.

他们为什么要削减医疗保健？

Why would they cut health care?

削减医疗保健是坏事。

Cutting health care is bad.

那就是他们立刻会想到的。

That's what they would just immediately think.

而且确实如此。

And Yeah.

我认为大多数人想到的都是欺诈问题，然后就想 dismiss 它。

I think most people are they they think of the fraud stuff, and they wanna dismiss it.

比如，我听过很多人 dismiss 这个来自明尼阿波利斯的尼克·雪莉孩子所揭露的事情。

Like, they I've heard all these people dismiss this Nick Shirley kid and what he exposed in in Minneapolis.

但真正的原因是因为涉事方不对。

But the the reason why is because it's the wrong party.

如果曝光欺诈的是民主党人，针对的是共和党的欺诈行为，那他们就会全力支持。

If this was a Democrat that was exposing Republican fraud, then they would be all into it.

他们会在每一份报纸上都报道这件事。

They would be it would be on every newspaper.

但相反，他们却试图把它说成不相关、不重要。

But instead, they're trying to dismiss it as not, you know, not relevant.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这很奇怪，因为我了解民主党人也是普通人，他们关心的和我是一样的。

And it to me, it's weird because I know Democrats are human beings and they care about the same things that I do.

我认识这些人中的绝大多数，很多人我都认识了四十年。

I've known all of these guys, almost all of them for many of them for forty years.

我认识伯尼·桑德斯已经四十年了。

Bernie Sanders, I've known for forty years.

他们的唯一解决方案就是给这个系统投入更多资金，而这个系统已经坏了，正让我们越来越生病。

Their only solution is more money to the system, a system that is broken, that is making us sicker and sicker.

特朗普总统想做的，是修复这个系统。

And what President Trump wants to do is he wants to fix the system.

停下。

Stop.

大部分钱并没有流向患者，而是流向了保险公司、药品福利管理公司以及这些从中牟利的中间商。

Most of that money is not going to the patients, it's going to the insurance companies and the PBMs and all of these middlemen that are, you know, are milking the system.

因此，特朗普总统说，解决方案不是支付给保险公司，而是直接支付给消费者，让他成为自己医疗保健的首席执行官，从而能够自主支配资金。

And that's why President Trump says, you know, the answer is to not pay the insurance company, it's to pay the consumer directly and put him make him the CEO of his own health care so that he can spend money.

这样一来，他就有了动力去进行预防保健，或许会选择整体医学、服用维生素或维生素D——你知道的，这些方法相当神奇，或者选择其他替代疗法，进行预防性护理。

He's now incentivized to do prevention and to maybe do holistic medicine or take vitamins or take vitamin D, which, you know, is as you know, it's kind of miraculous or to or to do alternatives, you know, to do preventative care.

他希望现在就能省钱。

And he wants to say he's going to want to save money right now.

没有人处于这种负有责任的位置上。

You nobody nobody is in that position of accountability.

我们需要让每个人成为自己健康的第一责任人，这样他们才会对自己的健康负责，如果生病了，就得自己承担后果。

We need to make them the CEO of their own health so that they have responsibility and they're going to pay the cause if they get sick.

政府支付费用，但由政府决定如何分配这笔钱。

Government pays, But they then decide to allocate that how to allocate that money.

然后我们需要让这个系统透明化。

And then we need to make the system transparent.

这正是我们正在做的一件事。

And that's, you know, one of the things that we're doing.

在特朗普第一任期内，他通过了一项透明度法案，但因为特朗普推动了，所有人都要求透明。

We're during his first term, Trump passed a transparency bill, but because Trump had passed everybody wanted transparency.

如果你是一位孕妇，你想知道自己生孩子要花多少钱。

If you if you're a woman, you're pregnant, you wanna know how much it's gonna cost you to to have that baby.

对于大多数情况，你根本无法查到这个信息。

There's no way you can find that out for most of them.

你可能每天打电话九个月。

You can go nine months on a phone every day.

问它要花多少钱，却永远得不到一个明确的答案。

How much it's going to cost and you'll never get a straight answer.

因此，比如在纽约，我们现在要做的，是要求所有医院和所有医疗服务提供者公布他们的价格清单，让每个人都能看到，并且这些信息会发布在我们正在创建的网站上。

And so, you know, in New York, for example, what we're doing now is we're gonna make all of the hospitals and all the providers post a menu of their prices so that are available to everybody and that are available on a website that we're creating.

如果你需要做核磁共振，而你家周围有40家机构提供这项服务，你现在根本无法知道它们的收费。

So if you want an MRI and you there's 40 places around your home that offer MRIs, you can't right now figure out what they cost.

现在，你可以在一个页面上查看所有这些机构，找出最便宜的那个。

Now you're gonna be able to go and look out of them all on a single page and figure out what the cheapest one is.

如果你去餐厅，价格都会明明白白地写在菜单上。

If you go to a restaurant, the price are on the menu.

如果你去买车，销售员对你说：‘是的，你可以买这辆车，但我不会告诉你价格，直到你买完之后才告诉你。’

If you go to buy a car and the guy said to you, yeah, you can buy the car, but I'm not gonna tell you how much it cost till after you bought by it.

没人会这样做生意，但我们的医疗系统却正是这样运作的。

Nobody would operate that way, but that's how our medical system operates.

所以我查看了我们为这个网站制作的原型。

So I looked at we have a mock up of the of this website.

目前，在拜登政府时期，由于特朗普曾通过这项法律，拜登政府却拒绝执行它。

We're right now during the Biden administration, because Trump had passed that law, the Biden administration just refused to enforce it.

因此，我们现在又回到了缺乏透明度的境地。

So we're in the same position now where there's no transparency.

我们现在正在改变这一点。

We're changing that now.

我们已经向医院寄出了上千封警告信。

We sent out we've sent out over a a thousand letters to hospitals, you know, warning letters.

他说必须立即公布，而我们刚刚 finalized 了新的规定。

He said, gotta post them right now and we're gonna and we just finalized new regulations.

如果他们不这么做，将会被处以巨额罚款。

If they don't do that, they're gonna pay a huge fine.

我看到了这个网站的原型，于是问了一个问题：曼哈顿一英里范围内的医院，生一个孩子的费用是多少？

So I saw the mock up of the of the website and I said I asked the question, how much does it cost in the hospitals within a mile of Manhattan of a baby?

其中有大约30家医院，我可以在一个页面上看到它们。

One of them was there were about 30 hospitals that you I could visualize on one page.

其中最低的是1300美元。

One of them was $1,300 That was the lowest.

最高的是22000美元。

Highest was 22,000.

在底特律，生孩子的 cheapest 地方大约是5000美元，最贵的则是6万美元。

In Detroit, it is the cheapest place to have a baby is about $5,000 and the most expensive is 60,000.

但这是同样的服务，同样的医疗质量。

And it's the same service, the same quality care.

唯一改变的只有价格。

Nothing changes except that price.

为什么我们会陷入这种信息混乱？

Why do we have that information chaos?

我们之所以如此，是因为这个行业想掩盖他们的所作所为。

We have it because the industry wants to hide what it's doing.

因此，这里根本没有市场。

And so there's no market.

人们无法做出明智的选择。

There's no ability for people to make good choices.

当我和一位医生住在一起的时候，我了解到……

And when, you know, the I met I was staying with Doctor.

奥兹在佛罗里达家中过渡期间。

Oz during the transition at his house in Florida.

有一天，澳大利亚前总理陆克文来访。

And one day Prime Minister Rudd, who was the former Prime Minister of Australia, came by.

他在卸任总理后，被任命负责一个旨在降低医疗成本并提高质量的委员会。

And he had after he was prime minister, he had been appointed to run a commission to reduce health care costs and improve quality.

他们取得了非常成功的成果。

And they were very successful.

但他表示，他们所做过的、改变一切的最重要事情就是价格透明化——让公众清楚知道自己将支付多少钱。

But he said the number one thing that they did that changed everything was price transparency, was showing people the price of what they're gonna pay.

所以我们现在也要这么做，让人们能够货比三家。

So we're now gonna do that and people will be able to shop.

而且你知道，我们还必须把原本流向保险公司的资金转移出来，交到公众手中，让他们有最大的动力去做出明智的选择。

And you know, now we also have to we also have to shift all of those that money away from the insurance companies and put it in the hands of, you know, of the public so that they have an are incentivized maximum incentivized to make good choices.

至于在食物方面做出明智选择，我喜欢你们的做法。

So as far as making good choices with, like, food, I I like what you guys did.

我喜欢你们对食物金字塔所做的改变。

I love what you guys did with the food pyramid.

你们基本上把它完全颠倒过来了，这真有点不可思议，因为长期以来，我们一直被告诉说，饮食中最重要的应该是谷物、大米和小麦，但现在我们回归到了早已知晓的真相。

You you essentially flipped it on its head, which is kind of crazy that for the longest time, we are being told that the most important things, the primary diet should be grains and rice and wheat, and and now it's things that we've known for a long time.

这才是你应该吃的食物——全天然、真正的食物。

It's whole food, actual real food.

这才是你真正该吃的东西。

That's what you're supposed to be eating.

问题是让人们改变他们的习惯和生活方式。

The the problem is getting people to change their habits and change their ways.

如果人们不开始吃健康的食物，不开始照顾自己的身体，你还能想象出什么其他方法能改变这种趋势呢？

And if people don't start eating good food and if people don't start taking care of their body, how what other things can you even imagine would shift this trend?

好吧，接下来会发生的是。

Well, here's what's gonna happen.

首先，我接手时的饮食金字塔是我在一年零两周前上任时从前任那里继承来的。

First of all, the food pyramid I inherited a food pyramid from the the first way I was I came into office one year and two weeks ago.

我上任一周后，收到了拜登政府提供的那份饮食指南。

A week after I got in, I was handed the food pyramid that the Biden administration had.

那根本就不是什么饮食金字塔。

It wasn't even the food pyramid.

他们已经取消了金字塔的版本。

They got rid of that.

他们只是在做饮食建议。

They just were doing the dietary guidelines.

那些推荐内容本应体现在饮食金字塔上。

So it was the recommendations that would go be reflected in the food pyramid.

那份文件长达数百页，令人完全看不懂，而且被五十年来腐蚀饮食金字塔的所有商业利益所主导。

It was hundreds of pages long and it was incomprehensible and it was driven by all the mercantile impulses that had corrupted the food pyramid for fifty years.

它是由游说者撰写的。

And it was was written by lobbyists.

它是由食品行业的游说者撰写的，正是这些利益驱使着把水果圈（Froot Loops）放在饮食金字塔顶端——而那根本算不上食物。

It was written by the food industry lobbyists and the same impulses that put Froot Loops at the top of the food pyramid, which isn't even a food.

Froot Loops 被列在食物金字塔推荐的顶端。

Froot Loops were at the top the recommendation of the food pyramid.

你可以让他们查一下旧的食物金字塔。

You can ask them to look up the old food pyramid.

我需要看一下

I need to see

Froot Loops 处于什么位置。

where Froot Loops stand.

他们不是在 Froot Loops 上加了一些维生素吗？

Don't they throw some vitamins on Froot Loops?

它不是富含维生素吗？

Isn't it, like, vitamin rich?

是的。

Oh, yeah.

好像这对你有好处似的。

As if that's good for you.

这只是说‘哦，是的’。

It's just Oh, yeah.

对。

Right.

他们确实添加了维生素。

They add vitamins.

他们连氰化物都加维生素吗？你知道，这并不会让它对你更有益。

Do they even add vitamins for cyanide, and, you know, it's not gonna make it any better for you.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我在开玩笑。

I'm joking.

但但但那太荒谬了，那么到底是怎么

But but But It was a ridiculous so the so how did

所以我们做的第一件事是请来了全国最好的营养学家。

so then what we did is we got the best nutritionist in the country.

我们请来了马克·海曼，还有来自全国顶尖大学的营养学家，把他们全都聚在一个房间里。

We, you know, we got Mark Hyman and we got the nutritionists from the best universities in the country and we put them all in a room.

我以为这会花一个月的时间。

And I thought it was going to take a month.

但实际上花了十一个月，因为他们对每一项建议都争论不休，所有内容都有引用和来源，以确保我们的科学依据扎实。

It took eleven months because they fought over every recommendation and everything is cited and sourced so that we know we have good science.

但你知道，由于多年来监管失职，有些研究根本就没做过。

But, you know, some of the stuff because of regulatory malpractice all these years, some of the studies simply haven't been done.

因此存在一些本不该存在的知识空白。

So there are knowledge gaps which we should not have.

所以我们现在有了一个新的食物金字塔，但因为旧的食物金字塔，人们不喜欢上面推荐的食物，转而选择超加工食品，而这些食品在旧金字塔上却是被允许的。

So now we have a food pyramid and because of the old food pyramid, people didn't like the food on it and they were going to ultra processed food, which was okay on the food pyramid.

现在，我们的孩子70%的食物都是超加工食品，他们摄入的70%的热量也来自这些食品，这简直是在毒害他们。

So now 70% of the food that our kids eat is ultra processed food, 70% of the calories they get, and it's just poisoning them.

他们去掉了好的食物，比如全脂牛奶，这种食物营养丰富，有助于大脑发育。

And they took off the good stuff like a whole milk, which is nutrient dense, which is feeding their brain.

我们已经有两代孩子在没有牛奶、缺乏大脑所需营养的环境中长大。

We have two generations of kids that grew up without milk, without the proper nutrients for their brain.

我们是地球上第一个同时面临慢性肥胖和营养不良的国家。

We have the first country in the face of the earth that has chronic obesity and in the same people malnutrition.

所以你看到的是极度肥胖的人，但他们却营养不良。

So you have immensely obese people and they're malnourished.

他们是医学意义上的营养不良。

They're medically malnourished.

这是因为食物金字塔被搞得一团糟。

That's because the food pyramid was so messed up.

那么，乔，现在会发生什么？我们将能够扭转这一趋势。

So what's going to happen now, Joe, is that we are going to be able to drive that.

我们将能够改变饮食文化。

We're going be able to change dietary culture.

仅仅是食物金字塔的调整就能改变饮食文化，以下是原因。

Just the food pyramid is going change dietary culture and here's how.

布鲁克·罗林斯是一位了不起的农业部长，她每天管理着五亿美元的食品补贴拨款，用于学校午餐、WIC计划、SNAP计划、印第安人医疗服务以及其他所有项目。

Brooke Rollins, who's an incredible USDA secretary, she had administers four zero five million dollars a day that she gives out food subsidies or school lunches, the WICS program, the SNAP program, Indian Health Services and all of these other programs.

因此，这些项目现在将提供更健康的食物，因为膳食指南规定了他们可以和不可以给孩子们提供哪些食物。

And so those programs now are going to get good food because the dietary guidelines dictate what they can and cannot feed kids.

军队和退伍军人事务部也在进行变革。

Military and the VA also are changing.

这周，我见到了一位名叫罗伯特·欧文的厨师，他是一位电视厨师。

Now I you know, this week I met with a guy, Chef Robert Irvine, who is a television chef.

他被彼得·哈格塞夫聘请来全面改造军队的餐食。

He's been hired by Pete Hagsef to come in and change all the military meals.

他已经在五个军事基地开始工作。

Military and he's already on five bases.

到本月底，他将覆盖二十个基地。

By the end of this month, he'll be on 20.

他所做的就是，我们提供给军人的食物太差了，他们根本不愿意吃。

What he's done is the food that we give our military is so bad, they won't eat it.

所以他们只好出去花钱买快餐。

So they're going out and they're spending their money on fast food.

而快餐并不便宜。

And fast food is not cheap.

一份巨无霸套餐要12到14美元，这不是便宜的饭。

A Big Mac meal costs $12 to $14 It's not a cheap meal.

这个价格你完全可以吃到很好的食物。

You can get a really good food for that price.

用这个价格，你一整天都能吃上健康美味的餐食。

You could feed yourself the whole day for that price with good food.

马克·海曼的新书里介绍了一种每天10美元的饮食方案，三餐都有高品质的食物。

Mark Hyman's new book has a diet, a $10 a day diet, three meals, great food.

总之，罗伯特·欧文已经进入这些地方，为他们提供新鲜食材，几乎全部来自本地采购。

Anyway, Robert Irvine has gone into these places and he gives them all fresh food, almost all of it locally sourced.

结果发现，这样更便宜。

As it turns out, it's cheaper.

军方每天为每位士兵的三餐花费18美元。

The military is spending $18 a day for three meals for each soldier.

他每天只花10美元，却提供真正的、优质的餐食，现在排队的人多到排到街角，没人再去吃快餐了。

He's spending $10 a day and giving them real food, good food, and the lines now are allowed around the block and nobody's going to fast food.

人人都争着要进去。

Everybody's fighting to get in.

他说，这并不会增加更多开支。

What he says is it doesn't cause more.

不需要更多的钱。

Don't need any more money.

我们只需要更聪明地采购，更聪明地执行。

We just need to buy smarter and to be smarter about how we do it.

而且，你知道的，我们一定能做到。

And, you know, we're going to be able to do that.

我们正在将膳食指南与SNAP计划结合起来。

One of the things that we're doing with the dietary guidelines is the SNAP program.

SNAP计划方面，目前已有20个州申请并获得了豁免，禁止用SNAP购买糖果。

SNAP, we have 20 states now that have applied for SNAP waivers and have been granted so that you can no longer get candy on SNAP.

现在也不能再用SNAP购买碳酸饮料。

You can no longer get soda.

这曾占SNAP消费总额的18%。

That was 18% of SNAP purchases.

我们正在让全国六千三百万最贫困的孩子接受纳税人资助的糖尿病，其中78%最终会进入医疗补助计划，许多人正在接受糖尿病治疗——也就是说，我们一边花钱让他们得病，一边又花钱终身为他们治疗。

So we are taking the sixty three million poorest kids in our country, giving them taxpayer funded diabetes, and seventy eight percent of them end up on Medicaid, Many of them are being treated for diabetes, so we're paying to give them the disease and then we're paying to treat it for the rest of their lives.

我们正在改变这种状况。

And we're changing that.

布鲁克正在推动的一项措施是，要求任何接受食品券的零售商必须将其商品中真正健康食品的比例翻倍。

And one of the things that Brooke is doing is she's going to require that any retailer that accepts food stamps has to double the amount of real food in their establishment.

我们正在与农民合作。

We're working with farmers.

我们正在与创业者合作，确保每个美国人都能获得负担得起的高质量食品。

We're working with entrepreneurs to make sure every American can get high quality food that is affordable.

我不明白怎么会有人反对这一点。

I don't know how anybody would be opposed to that.

这听起来太棒了。

That all sounds fantastic.

真奇怪他们会这样。

Weird that they are.

你刚才这么一说，怎么可能有人反对呢？

How how could you, the way you just laid it out?

怎么可能有人反对这一点呢？

How could anybody be opposed to that?

这听起来非常好。

That all sounds great.

我的意思是，尤其是对士兵们来说。

I mean, what the Especially for the soldiers.

他们吃到如此糟糕、根本不想吃的食物，这真的非常令人反感。

The the the fact that they were getting terrible food that they didn't wanna eat is just that's that's really offensive.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

当你想到你对他们提出的要求，却给他们连吃都不想吃的垃圾食物时，他们怎么会觉得你关心他们呢？

When you think about what you're asking of them, and then you're you're giving them garbage that they don't even wanna eat, like, what do they how do they feel that you care about them?

而且，罗伯特·欧文这位厨师告诉我，一份冷冻三文鱼要花9美元。

Well and, you know, one of the things Robert Irvine, the chef told me, he said, you know, it costs $9 to get a frozen salmon.

一份新鲜三文鱼只要6美元。

It costs $6 to get a fresh salmon.

所以你知道吗，自己在家做饭的话，好食物其实便宜得多。

So, you know, food food, good food is actually if you cook yourself at home, good food is much, much less expensive.

问题是美国人已经忘了怎么做饭。

The problem is Americans have forgotten how to cook.

而且烹饪非常重要，因为它有助于家庭凝聚和社区归属感。

And so and cooking is really important because it's not it's important for family cohesion, for a sense of community.

这是一种日常的、近乎神圣的仪式。

It's a daily, almost sacred ritual.

而将这种仪式从我们的生活中剥夺，加剧了我们当前的精神空虚。

And and, you know, taking that away from our lives has has amplified the spiritual malaise that we're in.

我们打算做的一件事，就是派遣联邦工作人员去教人们如何烹饪。

And one of the things we're going to do is to start sending federal workers out to teach people how to cook.

他们连基本的厨具都没有。

They don't have the implements.

他们连砧板都没有。

They don't have the cutting boards.

他们也不知道该怎么买菜。

They don't have, you know, they don't know how to buy groceries.

对。

Right.

你知道，你可以去这个国家的任何一家大型杂货店。

And, you know, you can go into any any big grocery store in this country.

如果你去买牛排，价格仍然相当昂贵。

If you go and buy a steak, it's still pretty expensive.

但如果你买便宜一点的部位，肉质非常好，而且非常实惠，比如牛肝或者其他这些替代品。

But if you buy the cheaper cuts, it's great meat and it is very, very affordable or liver or, you know, all these alternatives.

肩胛肉。

Chuck Rose.

你怎么可能反对这个呢？

You know, how can you be against that?

我跟你说过，已经有20个州申请了SNAP计划，我们已经批准了它们的SNAP豁免。

Well, I I told you 20 states have applied for the SNAP program and we've granted them SNAP waivers.

如果你想要喝可乐，为什么不能用纳税人的钱呢？

Why would you want taxpayer if you want to drink a Coke, you ought to be able to.

我们生活在美国。

We live in The United States.

我们不会剥夺任何人的东西。

We're not going to take anything away from anybody.

但纳税人不应当为它买单，尤其是在我们另一方面还要为糖尿病支付费用的情况下。

But the taxpayer shouldn't be paying for it, particularly when we're paying for it on the other end in diabetes.

所以这对任何人来说都是合情合理的。

So this just makes sense to anybody.

但已经有二十个州提出了申请。

But 20 states have applied.

其中只有两个是民主党执政的州。

Only two of them are blue states.

为什么？

Why?

伯尼·桑德斯多年来一直在为这件事奔走，但佛蒙特州却不愿申请。

Bernie Sanders has been fighting for this for years, but Vermont won't apply for one.

这全是党派之争，他们把对唐纳德·特朗普的憎恨置于对自身孩子的关爱之上。

And it's all partisanship, and they're putting their hatred of Donald Trump ahead of their love for their own children.

在我们学会停止这样做之前，这个国家的医疗保健，至少在这些州，是不会改善的。

And until we learn to stop doing that, this, you know, the health care in this country is not gonna improve, at least in those states.

那么，您能想象出任何可能实施的策略，来让人们在这些事情上达成一致，不再对如此重要的事情——保持健康——如此党派化吗？

So what strategies, if any, could you ever imagine that could be implemented that would kind of unite people on these things and get them to stop being so partisan about one of the most important aspects of being a human being is staying healthy.

这就像爱和健康一样。

It's it's a, you know, it's like love and health.

这些都是我们所有人都最渴望的东西。

They're all those are the the the top ones that we all want.

我们竟然把这当作战场，这看起来简直疯狂；而且它竟然与某个政党挂钩，这同样荒谬。

It just seems insane that we would choose this as a battleground, and it it it seems insane that it's connected to one party or another.

这不应该是这样的。

It shouldn't be.

它本该如此，我们至少在这一点上应该团结一致。

It's a it it should just we should all be united on at least this.

我认为，如果人们更健康、更健壮，他们可能会少很多焦虑，政治分歧带来的冲突也会少很多。

And I think if people were a little healthier and they're a little more fit, they'd probably have a lot less anxiety, probably a lot less conflict when it comes to political disagreements.

事情本可以更友好地解决，尤其是在朋友之间。

Things could probably worked out more amicably, especially among friends.

拥有良好的健康状况几乎能改善你生活的方方面面。

It's like having good health improves virtually every aspect of your life.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我希望每个人都能这样。

I mean, I I would everybody.

我想说两点。

I'd say two things.

饮食与你的心理健康直接相关。

The food ties directly into your mental health.

对。

Yes.

我们现在已充分证实，这存在肠脑连接，比如抑郁、多动症。

And we now know that this is so well documented that there's a gut brain connection and that, you know, depression, ADHD.

哈佛的克里斯·帕尔默通过改变人们的饮食，显著减少了精神分裂症的症状。

Chris Palmer up at Harvard is dramatically reducing the symptoms of schizophrenia simply by changing people's diets.

他使用的是生酮饮食。

He's using a keto diet.

有这么显著吗？具体是什么样的

There are Dramatically, like, what what kind

百分比？

of percentage?

症状减少了30%。

Losing 30% of their symptoms.

真的吗？

Really?

仅仅靠酮体？

Just from ketones.

通过生酮饮食。

From keto.

那他们有没有对……做过什么吗？

What about have they done anything with,

同样的情况也成立。

same thing is true.

我的意思是，你知道，现在有一篇大论文即将发表，说的是那些通过改变饮食而摆脱双相情感障碍诊断的孩子。

I mean, you know, there there are now there's a big paper about to come out on losing a bipolar diagnosis kids who lose bipolar diagnosis simply by changing their diet.

我们知道，注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）是由各种食物类型等因素引起的，这一点已有充分的文献证实。

We know that ADHD is driven by all these food types and stuff and that's very well documented.

如果你上网搜索研究，看看当改变监狱和少管所的饮食时会发生什么，就会发现很多案例。

If there's all of these, you go on the internet and you look for studies that show what happens when you change the food in prisons and juvenile detention facilities.

他们会把健康饮食放在监狱的一侧。

And they, you know, they'll put it in one wing of the prison.

另一侧则提供标准饮食。

They'll put good food, and then they'll put the standard food in the other.

结果，暴力行为减少了百分之四十、四十五，甚至百分之五十。

And the level of violence goes down by forty, forty five, 50.

在青少年拘留设施中，使用约束措施的情况减少了75%。

The use of restraints in juvenile detention facilities goes down 75%.

事件发生的数量大幅下降。

The the number of incidents dramatically drops.

因此，这在监狱中是一个公共安全问题。

And so it's a public safety issue in the prisons.

而且，我现在一直在与所有监狱进行会面。

And, you know, I've been meeting now with all the prisons.

监狱面临一个严重问题，因为州立监狱每天每人仅被拨款0.60美元用于伙食。

Prisons have a real problem because they're allocated the state prisons are allocated to $0.60 a day to feed the prisoners.

这全部都是为了他们。

It's and it's all for them.

一切都只考虑保质期。

It's all about shelf life.

所以他们只是给囚犯喂食你所能想象的最糟糕的毒物。

So they're just feeding them the worst kind of poison that you could possibly.

这全都是化学物质。

It's all just chemicals.

天哪。

Oh my god.

但你知道，

But, you know

我们基本上已经放弃了改造的理念。

Well, we've kind of given up on the idea of rehabilitation.

一切都只是为了惩罚。

It's just all about punishment.

然后

And then

但这同样关乎公共安全。

But this is also public safety.

这是狱警的安全。

It's guard safety.

是的。

Yeah.

还有另一点，关于你第一个问题的答案——如何缓解这种两极分化。

And the other thing, the answer to your first question about how do you sort of, you know, mitigate the polarization.

我认为唯一的方法是让人们开始彼此交谈。

I would say the only way that you do that is by getting people to start talking to each other.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你必须能够找到与他人共同的立场。

Because that you gotta be able to find common ground with other people.

如果你不和他们交谈，你就看不到他们的为人。

And if you don't talk to them, you don't see their humanity.

对。

Right.

你知道，你做的一件特别棒的事就是，你邀请了很多你不同意观点的人来这里，和他们进行文明的对话，展现出你对他们的兴趣，并且你能够听到他们的理由。

And, you know, that's one of the things that you do that is so great, which is you bring a lot of people on here who you disagree with and you have a civil conversation about them and you you show your curiosity about them and you, you know, you you get to hear their rationale.

很多时候，我会听这个节目里的某个人。

And a lot of times, I'll listen to somebody on this show.

我会说，我不喜欢这个人。

I I'll say, I don't like this guy.

但当我听完他的理由后，我会觉得，哦，其实他说得很有道理。

And then I'll listen to his rationale and I'll think, oh, actually, he's making a lot of sense.

我们必须停止因为标签而憎恨他人。

And we have to stop hating people because of the label on them.

是的。

Yeah.

而要开始倾听。

And start, you know, listening.

现在我们这么做非常重要，因为这些算法的设计就是为了把我们所有人分开。

And it's really important we do that now because these algorithms are designed to drive us all apart.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我们国家一直都有政治极化现象。

And, you know, we've always had political polarization in this country.

我的意思是，我成长于六十年代，那时候炸弹爆炸，人们被枪击，我父亲竞选时，一切都非常暴力、充满敌意。

I mean, I grew up during the sixties and, you know, there were bombs going off and people being shot and, you know, all it was very, very violent and vitriolic when my dad was running.

而当时的极化程度，可能是自美国内战以来最严重的。

And the polarization probably was the worst since the American Civil War.

但如今，当这种极化被算法放大时，如果我们不开始学会彼此沟通，很难想象事情会走向一个好结果。

But but today, when it is amplified by the algorithms, it's hard to see where it's gonna end up in a good place unless we start learning to talk to each other.

这不仅仅是算法的问题。

It's not just the algorithm.

这同时也是沟通方式的问题。

It's just the it's also the method of communication.

当你只是通过愤怒的推文彼此来回争吵时，你说过要坐下来和人交谈。

When you're you're only talking to people through, like, angry tweets back and forth with each other, you were saying, like, sit down and talk to people.

现在没人这么做了。

That's no one's doing that anymore.

很少有人这样了，不过还是有一些FaceTime对话在进行。

Very few be there's a few FaceTime conversations going on.

如果你和朋友出去，就能见到他们。

You see your friends if you go out with them.

人们现在不再那么交谈了，也不再坐下来好好聊天。

People are not talking that much anymore, and they're not sitting down and talking.

而当你真的坐下来时，每个人都很分心。

And when you do, everyone's distracted.

每个人都拿出手机。

Everyone has their phones out.

每个人都在查看短信。

Everyone's checking text messages.

让我告诉你，我们目前根据我所在机构的MAHA法案正在做的最重要的一件事。

I I'll tell you one of the most important things that we're doing right now as part of the MAHA legislation from my agency.

我们正在逐州推进，要求各州通过‘从铃响到铃响’的立法，目前已有26个州完成了这项立法，超过一半的州，这样孩子们在学校就不能使用手机了。

We're going state by state, and we're asking them to do bell to bell legislation so that and 26 states have now already done it, so more than half the states, so that kids can't use cell phones at schools.

前几天我去了一所位于劳登县的学校，那里的州政府非常支持这项措施。

I went to a school in Loudoun County the other day and the states love them.

我去劳登县的时候，学生们曾积极反对禁止使用手机的政策。

I went to Loudoun County and, you know, they had the students had fought and fought against this this against getting their cell phones.

不过，各个学校、学区和州的做法都不尽相同。

So they they the way they do it, all of the schools, school districts and states do it differently.

但在那个州，学生可以带手机上学，但必须把手机放在背包里。

But in that state, they can bring their cell phone to school, but they have to leave it in their backpack.

如果家长需要联系孩子，他们仍然可以做到。

And and if the parent calls and needs to talk to them, they can do it.

我走进食堂，看到那里有600名学生，他们都在彼此交谈。

But I walked into the cafeteria, 600 kids in that cafeteria, and they're all talking to each other.

他们面对面坐着。

They're sitting across the table.

没有人看自己的手机。

Nobody's looking at their labs.

那天家长们也来了，你知道的。

The parents the parents came, you know, that day.

我把学生们叫过来，问他们觉得这个做法怎么样。

I pulled the students and I said, how many do you think this is a good idea?

他们都举起了手，说前两周我们都很讨厌，但现在我们爱上了。

And they all put their hands up and they said, we all hated it for the first two weeks and now we love it.

真棒。

Wow.

家长们说，这是发生过的最好的事情。

The the parents said, it's the best thing that ever happened.

我的孩子现在开车时不会再玩手机了，因为他们知道没有手机也能活。

My kid is not driving with their cell phone in the car anymore because they know they can live without it.

或者和家人一起吃晚饭，我们真的在交流了。

Or eating dinner with the family and we're actually having conversations.

老师和学校也特别喜欢，因为纪律问题减少了，考试成绩也大幅提升，因为他们更专注于学习了。

And then the the teachers and the schools love it because the disciplinary problems go down and the the test scores go through the roof because they're focusing on work.

这简直不言而喻。

It's just like a no brainer.

但again，最难说服的是那些蓝州，因为他们觉得这是特朗普阵营的一部分，是把特朗普妖魔化成暴君之类的。

But again, it's the blue states that, you know, are the hardest to convince to do it because they see it as as, you know, as a a Trump part of the, you know, the demonization of, you know, Trump being the tyrant or whatever.

不承认孩子们分心，这实在太荒谬了。

It's just so stupid to to not recognize the kids are distracted.

就像，为什么偏偏是这件事呢？

Like, what Why it's just one of those things.

为什么这非得变成左右派的问题？

I've why does that have to be a right or a left issue?

这太蠢了。

It's stupid.

这根本不是美国的问题。

This isn't a United States issue.

让一群人在这个世界上取得成功的最好方式，就是为他们铺平一条清晰的道路。

The best way to have a group of people that succeed in this world is make it as clear a path for them as possible.

一旦允许他们整天使用手机，就会变得太过上瘾。

And as soon as you allow them to use their phone all day, it's too addictive.

是的。

Yeah.

没人能让他们放下手机。

No one can put them down.

没错。

No.

我估计，你很容易就会损失30%甚至更多的注意力。

You're gonna lose 30% of your concentration or more easily, I would imagine.

居然把这件事变成党派之争，真是荒谬。

The the fact that that would be a partisan thing is just nuts.

这充分说明了我们有多荒唐。

It just shows how goofy we are.

我不明白你怎么能让人们开始讨论这个问题。

I don't I don't know how you get people to talk, though.

我的意思是，除了我做播客，但那是我的工作。

I mean, other than I mean, I do it on a podcast, but that's my job.

我不知道自己会有多多少少次有机会和那些在政治上、意识形态上或观点上与我相左的人交谈，我想了解他们的想法。

I don't know how many conversations I'd be having with people who I was politically opposed to or ideologically opposed to or just didn't see eye to eye with them and wanted to know how they think.

我甚至不知道自己会有多少这样的机会。

I I don't know how many opportunities I would ever even get to do that.

你所做的事情非常重要。

What you're doing is so important.

现在，你知道，有成千上万的人在模仿你，很多优秀的播客节目，但它们都在教人们如何交谈。

And now, you know, there's a thousand people imitating you, many really good podcasts, but it's teaching people to have conversations.

我的意思是，你是最棒的老师和导师，大家都很钦佩你。

I mean, you are the best teacher, mentor on that and people admire you.

哦，我有七个孩子，他们是在有各种电子设备的环境中长大的。

They oh, and my I have seven kids and they grew up with with devices and stuff.

我会看着他们，把他们的设备打掉，而且他们也无法专注于长时间的、深入的对话。

And I would look, you know, I'd slap them out of their hand and I I and, also, they couldn't concentrate on long, you know, long points, long conversations.

他们就说，直接说重点。

They're like, get to the point.

你知道的。

You know?

我就只有五秒钟的时间。

Like, I only got five seconds.

你得把重点讲清楚。

You gotta make your point.

但我却看到他们坐上三个半小时，听罗根的播客。

And then I see them sitting for three and a half hours and listening to a Rogan podcast.

这是一场文化现象。

That was a cultural phenomenon.

这是一次文化变革。

That was a cultural change.

我对这一代孩子充满希望，因为他们从小接触这些，而且你知道，他们渴望这样的内容。

This generation of kids, I have so much hope for because they grew up with that and, you know, they want it.

所以我确实对我们将能实现这一点充满希望。

So I do have a lot of hope that we're going to be able to do this.

然后，你知道，我认为查理·柯克也做了类似的事，作为给那些孩子的榜样，无论你是否同意他的观点，他确实有很强的意见，有些人觉得这些观点很糟糕。

And then, you know, I think Charlie Kirk did that too as an example to a lot of those kids, because whether you agree with him or not and he had very strong opinions that people, you know, consider terrible.

但他真正做的一件事是，他与那些他不同意的人交谈，总是给他们麦克风，让他们发声。

But the one thing that he really did is he talked to people he didn't agree with, and he always gave them the microphone and allowed them to amplify their voice.

然后他保持了礼貌，与他们交谈，很多时候用逻辑进行辩论，但并不是以愤怒的方式。

And then he had a civility, and he talked to them and he used logic a lot of times destructively, but not in an angry way.

所以我认为，你知道，他是在教人们如何再次进行对话。

And so I think, you know, he was teaching people to how to have conversations again.

你是在教人们如何再次进行对话。

You're teaching people how to have conversations again.

而且你知道，我认为这正是我对未来的一大希望：人们学会与那些他们不同意的人交谈。

And it's, you know, I think that's, you know, one of the big hopes that I have for the future that people learn to talk to each other with whom they did with with people with whom they disagree.

那会很好。

It would be nice.

但如今，在愤怒经济中确实存在一个真正的问题，很多人的播客几乎完全聚焦于煽动愤怒、与人争吵、尖叫互怼、贬低他人，而不是进行文明的对话，他们只想赢、想在争论中压倒别人，甚至想扼杀对方。

But there's also a a real genuine problem today in the marketplace of outrage that a a lot of people a lot of their podcasts are just focused almost entirely on on outrage and of, like, having arguments and screaming matches with people and, you know, putting people down and not having civil discourse, but trying to win, trying to dominate someone in an argument, you know, trying to squash people.

某种程度上，这确实有好处，因为它揭露了错误的观点，但它也助长了一种言论氛围：只要某人在意识形态上反对你，他们就成了敌人，你只想摧毁他们。

And I guess in a sense, some of that is really good because it exposes bad ideas, but it just encourages that kind of discourse where if someone's ideologically opposed to you, they are the enemy and you wanna destroy them.

我觉得，好吧。

And I'm I'm like, okay.

他们只是普通人。

They're just a human being.

弄清楚他们为什么会走到这一步，为什么他们的观点和你不同，也弄清楚你自己的立场是怎么形成的，然后试着找找看有没有中间地带。

Like, find out why they got to where they are that is a different perspective than you have and why you got to where you are and try to figure out if there's some middle ground in there.

你到底相信什么？为什么相信这些？

Like, what what do you believe like, why do you believe that?

去了解原因，然后去问他们。

And find out why and and ask them.

别打断他们。

And don't don't cut them off.

让他们说。

Let them talk.

让他们表达自己。

Let them express themselves.

如果可以的话，帮助他们。

Help them if you can.

试着弄清楚是什么让人真正思考，而不是认为你的想法就是你自身的一部分。

Try to figure out what makes someone actually think instead of just thinking that your ideas are a part of you.

这些只是想法。

They're just ideas.

它们并不是你。

Like, they're not you.

有些想法你可以在脑海中持有，但它们对你有害。

Like, some ideas you can hold in your mind, and they're bad for you.

它们很糟糕。

They're bad.

你从未仔细审视过这些想法。

You haven't examined them.

你把这些想法当作教条来行动，然后因为你反复宣扬它们，就被困在这些想法里了。

You're acting on them like they're doctrine, and then you're stuck with that idea because you've already espoused it so many times.

你不想做个反复无常的人，所以人们会生气。

You don't wanna be a flip flopper, and so people get mad.

于是你陷入了一种糟糕的沟通循环，没人能打破它，什么事也做不成。

And you you get this weird cycle of shitty communication, and nobody ever breaks out of it, and nothing ever gets done.

也永远无法达成任何共识。

And there's no common ground is ever achieved.

而你唯一能打破这种循环的方式，就是别再这样跟人说话了。

And the only way you're gonna ever break that is to stop talking to people like that.

你就该好好跟他们聊聊。

You gotta just talk to them.

别把他们当敌人那样说话，而是把他们当作普通人，就一些想法进行交流，并给予他们尊重。

Just to instead of talk to them like they're the enemy, just talk to them like they're a fellow human being about some ideas and just treat them with respect.

像对待一个在其他情况下可能成为你朋友的人一样和他们交谈。

Talk to them like a person that, you know, in any other circumstance, maybe even could be your friend.

就直接和他聊聊。

Just talk to him.

人们是可以做到的。

People can do that.

这是可能的。

It's possible.

这只需要自律。

It just takes discipline.

你得学会怎么做。

You have to learn how to do it.

我花了好一阵子。

Took me a while.

我花了很长时间才学会如何更好地与人交谈，但这是可以做到的。

Took me a long time to learn how to talk to people better, but it can be done.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

但这是一种技巧。

But it's technique.

但这种恶意言论在播客界如此普遍，

But as prevalent as, you know, that kind of vitriol is on in the podcast world

对。

Right.

这与电视上发生的情况完全无法相比，因为电视上根本不存在对话。

It's it is incomparable to what's happening on television because there are no conversations on television.

对。

Right.

说实话，我更想说的是，有些节目确实如此，但像一些CNN的节目，纯粹就是疯狂的意识形态对决。

That's more of what I was getting at, honestly, is there's some shows that do that, but, like, some of these CNN shows, it's just these crazy ideological battles.

而且，没错，朋友们，一个小贴士：你不能让六个人坐在桌旁一起大喊大叫七分钟。

And, yeah, also, guys, pro tip, you can't have fucking six people at a table all yelling out for seven minutes.

你没有足够的时间来传达一个真正的观点，结果变成了一场谁的准备好的金句最出色、谁的讽刺俏皮话最犀利的较量。

You don't have enough time to get a real point across, and it becomes a battle of, like, who's got the best prepared sound bites or who's got the best snarky quip.

这太蠢了。

It's stupid.

用这种方式谈论事情真的很愚蠢。

It's a stupid way to talk about things.

你知道的？

You know?

我的意思是，谢丽尔上了

I mean, Cheryl went on

《观点》节目？

The View?

是的。

Yeah.

《观点》节目。

The View.

而且这根本不是像你说的那样，咱们来一场友好的对话，让每个人都能表达自己，轻松有趣，是的。

And it was that it wasn't like like you say, you know, like, let's have a congenial conversation with people and, you know, allow them to to express themselves and to be fun and funny and Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

就只是跟某人好好聊一聊。

Well, just have a conversation with someone.

如果你在某些事情上和他们意见不合，就像他们不同意她的观点一样，与其让一群人一起对她叽叽喳喳，不如一对一地交谈会更有成效。

If you disagree with them about certain things like they disagree with her, it would have been far more productive to have a one on one conversation instead of this gaggle of hands squawking all at her.

你一再看到，当他们反对某人时，就是这样。

It's just like you you see it over and over again when they oppose somebody.

他们全都抢着发言，但这根本不可能深入探讨一个话题，而且他们的形式也受限。

It's like they're all chiming in, and this is not the way you could ever, like, thoroughly cover a subject, and they're limited by their format.

这种形式非常局限。

That format is very limiting.

这是一种糟糕的形式，你得在预定的时间插播广告，不管正在说什么，都必须停。

It's a shitty format where you, you know, you go to a commercial at predetermined times, period, no matter what.

也许你在这里或那里有点弹性，但你必须得插进广告。

Like, maybe you got a little leeway here or there, but you've gotta get that commercial in.

这太疯狂了，因为当你正在谈话时，很多观点需要很长时间才能展开。

And that's crazy because if you're in the middle of talking, a lot of points take a long time to flesh out.

想想你刚才解释的关于医疗补助的所有内容。

Like, just think about all the stuff you just explained about Medicaid.

想象一下，如果你试图这么做，你可以。

Imagine if you try to do that and You can.

你做不到。

You can't.

你根本做不到。

You can't do it.

他们会试图阻止你。

And they would they would try to stop you.

你太钻牛角尖了。

You're too in the weeds.

没人会关注这个。

No one's gonna pay attention to this.

我觉得这不对，而且我们通过播客已经明白了，因为那时候没有制作团队，没有高管，什么人都没有。

It's like, I don't think that's true, and I think we've learned that because of podcast, because there was no production, there was no executives, there was no one there.

人们只是打开网络摄像头就开始说话。

People were just putting on a webcam and talking.

所以我们意识到，其实人们还是喜欢对话的。

And so we realized, like, well, people actually do like conversations still.

只是他们很少遇到真正的对话。

They just don't get a lot of them, not real ones.

你知道的。

You know?

你看到的采访都是有人拿着一沓问题照着念。

You get interviews where someone has, like, a sheet of questions.

你知道的。

You know?