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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根播客，夜晚播出，全天候。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
波兰先生，很高兴再次见到你。
Mister Pollan, so good to see you again.
嗨。
Hey.
很高兴回来。
Good to be back.
意识。
Consciousness.
所以这本新书，是什么启发了你？
So this new book, what inspired it?
是什么让你开始，我的意思是，你已经通过你的
What what got you to I mean, you you've kind of explored consciousness a little bit with your
致幻剂书籍。
Psychedelic book.
是的。
Yeah.
《改变你的思维》。
How to Change Your Mind.
实际上，这本书的灵感来自于我为那本书所做的研究。
Well, actually, this book was inspired by the research I did for that book.
正如你所知，我进行了几次研究之旅。
As you know, I had several, research trips.
而且
And
你说‘研究’的时候会比划空气引号吗？
Do you do air quotes when you say research?
会。
Yes.
有两件事特别有趣。
And two things happened that were really interesting.
一是迷幻剂会让你思考意识的问题。
One is there's something about psychedelics that makes you think about consciousness.
它就像擦拭挡风玻璃，你平时看到的世界透过的是完全透明的玻璃。
It you know, it's like smudging the windscreen, the windshield that you normally is perfectly transparent and you see the world through.
突然间，它变得不一样了，你意识到我和世界之间似乎有什么东西。
Suddenly, it's, like, different, and you realize there's something between me and the world.
那到底是什么呢？
And what is it?
那就是意识。
And that's consciousness.
所以，很多使用过迷幻剂的人都会开始思考这个谜题。
And so like a lot of people who've done psychedelics, you start wondering about this mystery.
为什么是这样，而不是那样？
Why is it this way, not that way?
那是一种体验。
So that was one experience.
另一种体验发生在我康涅狄格州家里的花园里，我散步时强烈感受到植物是有意识的。
The other was I had an experience in my garden in Connecticut where we have a house of walking through my garden and getting the powerful impression that the plants were conscious.
我记得那些植物，是一种虞美人或几株虞美人，它们仿佛在回望着我。
And that these I remember these this particular it was a plume poppy or several plume poppies, and they were, like, returning my gaze.
它们非常仁慈。
They were very benevolent.
它们在传递积极的能量，但更重要的是，它们是有意识的，比以往任何时候都更有生命力。
They were, you know, putting out positive vibes, but like they were conscious, much more alive than they'd ever been.
就像很多迷幻剂带来的洞见一样，我不知道该怎么处理它。
And like a lot of insights on psychedelics, didn't know what to do with it.
这真的是真的吗？
Like, is it true?
这只是药物作用吗？
Is it just a drug thing?
你知道，这到底是什么？
You know, what is it?
但我决定去弄清楚，这会很有趣。
But I decided it'd be interesting to find out.
于是我咨询了几个科学家，问他们：面对这样的洞见，你们会怎么做？
And, I consulted a couple people, scientists, and said, do you do with an insight like that?
他们说：你可以用其他认知方式来检验它，包括科学的认知方式。
And they said, well, you test it against other ways of knowing, including scientific ways of knowing.
这引导我踏上了一条非常有趣的道路，探索植物的智能与植物的意识。
And that led me down this, really interesting path, exploring plant intelligence and plant consciousness.
所以，基本上，这本书源于迷幻体验和一些冥想体验。
So, basically, yeah, the book grew out of the psychedelic experiences and some meditation experience.
冥想也会让你极度意识到自己的想法有多奇怪，它们从何而来，是谁在思考它们。
Meditation also has a way of making you, like, hyper aware of how strange your thoughts are, where are they coming from, who's thinking them.
关于意识，有多种不同的观点。
So there's a bunch of different schools of thought when it comes to consciousness.
对吧？
Right?
有一种观点，比如鲁珀特·谢尔德雷克的理论，认为一切都有意识；还有一种是理性科学家的观点，认为意识存在于大脑中。
There's one, like the Rupert Sheldrake thing that sort of everything has consciousness and there's the sort of rational scientists that believe it exists somewhere in the mind.
我不确定。
I don't know.
在大脑里？
In the brain?
是的。
Yeah.
在大脑里。
In the brain.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
还有人认为大脑本质上就像一根天线，用来接收。
And then there's people that think that the brain is essentially just an antenna Right.
正在调谐。
That's tuning Yeah.
到外界存在的更广泛意识。
In to the greater consciousness of whatever it is that's out there.
是的。
Yeah.
你更倾向于其中哪一种观点？
Do you have any one of them that you hold
还是说它们都同样合理。
Or do They're all equally plausible.
你知道吗，我一开始进入这个话题时，假设正如大多数科学家所认为的那样，大脑中某种特定的神经元排列会产生意识，也就是主观体验。
You know, I went into the experience assuming, because this is what most scientists assume, that somehow a certain arrangement of neurons in the brain generates consciousness, you know, subjective experience.
但没有人能证明这一点。
But no one's been able to show that.
我们在这一努力上毫无进展，你知道，我们或许能将大脑的某些部分与意识相关联，但我们并不理解三磅重的物质如何能产生‘成为你’的感觉。
We've gotten nowhere in that effort to you know, we can we we might correlate certain parts of the brain with consciousness, but we don't understand how three pounds of matter could generate the feeling of being you.
你在书里提到过那两位打赌的先生。
You talk about it in your book where the the two gentlemen who had the bet.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那是克里斯托夫·科赫，一位杰出的脑科学家，还有大卫·查默斯，一位哲学家。
That was, Christoph Koch, who's a great brain scientist, and David Chalmers, who's a philosopher.
这可以追溯到上世纪九十年代初。
And this goes back to, like, in the early nineties.
他们在德国不来梅的一家酒吧里喝醉了。
They were getting drunk in a bar in Bremen, Germany.
当时，克里斯托夫·科赫正处于现代科学探索意识的起步阶段。
And Christoph Koch had had really was at the beginning of the modern scientific exploration of consciousness.
他正与弗朗西斯·克里克合作，而克里克刚刚因发现DNA结构获得诺贝尔奖。
And he was working with Francis Crick, who had just come off of a Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA.
克里克当时是世界上最著名的科学家，他认为，那种发现DNA双螺旋结构并解释遗传机制的还原性科学，同样可以应用于意识研究。
And Crick, who was like the most famous scientist in the world at the time, thought, well, the same kind of reductive science that discovered the double helix DNA and explained heredity, I'm gonna do that for consciousness.
他是个非常傲慢的人，觉得这根本不是问题。
He's a very arrogant man, and he he thought it would just, you know, no problem.
而克里克某种程度上是他的助手。
And Crick was kind of his sidekick.
抱歉，科赫才是他的助手。
I'm sorry, Coke was his sidekick.
于是，科赫带着同样的自信，与查尔默斯打了个赌，声称他们将在二十五年内找到意识的神经相关物，即大脑中负责意识的部位。
And so Coke, who shared that kind of confidence, made this bet with Chalmers that they would find the neural correlates, the parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, within twenty five years.
那是二十五年前，现在都过去二十七年了，查尔默斯赢了这个赌注。
That was twenty five years, twenty seven years ago now, and Chalmers won the bet.
查尔默斯因提出‘困难问题’这个术语而闻名，用以描述探索意识的整个努力。
Chalmers is famous for coining the term the hard problem to, you know, to describe the whole effort to figure out consciousness.
这个问题之所以困难，有诸多原因。
And it's a hard problem for a lot of reasons.
意识是宇宙中最重大的谜团之一。
I mean, is one of the biggest mysteries in the universe.
意识究竟是如何产生的？
I mean, how consciousness come came to be.
它是进化而来的吗？
Did it evolve?
还是它一直就存在？
Was it always here?
但他的观点是，我们的科学建立在第三人称、客观、可量化的测量基础上，而意识本质上是一种主观的第一人称体验。
But he his his point was that our science is based on third person, objective, quantifiable measurements, and consciousness is fundamentally a subjective first person experience.
那么，这些工具如何介入并对意识提出有价值的观点呢？
So how does those tools reach in and say anything of value about consciousness?
他说，意识中有一些容易解决的问题，比如知觉、情感之类的东西。
He said, There are easy problems in consciousness we can figure out, like perception, emotion, things like that.
但还有一个难题。
But there is this hard problem.
你如何从物质中产生意识？
How do you get from matter to mind?
他赢了这场赌注。
And he won the bet.
几年前我参加了一个在纽约大学举行的仪式，可口可乐公司送给查尔默斯一箱上等的马德拉酒，并重新下了赌注。
There was a ceremony I went to a couple years ago at NYU and Coke presented Chalmers with a case of very fine Madeira wine and and renewed the bet.
他说，好吧。
He said, alright.
再过二十五年。
In another twenty five years.
这很乐观。
That's optimistic.
这些先生们多大年纪？
How old are these gentlemen?
可可六十多岁了，所以我们得看看他是否能活到那时候。
Coke is in his late sixties, so we'll see if he's around for this.
但查尔默斯要年轻一点。
But and Chalmers is little bit younger.
这是一个非常有趣的想法，因为我们知道，如果大脑受损，心智也会受到影响。
It's it's such an interesting thought because we know that the mind contains if damaged.
对吧？
Right?
我们知道心智中有一些特定的方面，比如额叶切除术这样的例子。
We know that there's certain aspects there's certain parts of the mind where like lobotomies, for instance.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们知道，如果干扰它，会极大地影响行为。
We know that if disturb it, it radically affects behavior.
我们知道，大脑中有一些部分可以通过刺激来唤起记忆。
We know that there's parts of the mind that you can stimulate that could actually recall memories.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
那里发生了一些奇怪的事情。
There's some some weird stuff going on there.
所以我们知道，它至少在功能上与意识是相连的。
So we know it's somehow or another at least functionally connected to consciousness.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
这确实是一种关联，但确实如此。
It's definitely a relationship, but Yeah.
但如果它正在产生意识，那就是另一回事了。
But if it's generating consciousness, that's one thing.
但正如你之前所说，它也可能是接收意识。
But it could be, as you said earlier, it could be receiving consciousness.
对。
Right.
而且同样的情况也适用：如果你损伤了大脑的某些部分，对吧。
And the same things would hold true that if you damage parts of the brain Right.
当然。
Sure.
就像一个有问题的大脑。
Like a bad brain.
是的。
Yeah.
或者没错。
Or yeah.
损伤信号仍然存在。
Damage Signal still out there.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这并不能决定任何一种理论的正确性。
So that that doesn't determine the truth of either theory.
另一个是泛心论，你之前提到过。
And then the other one is panpsychism, which you were alluding to.
我不确定是不是鲁珀特·谢尔德雷克。
I don't know if that's Rupert Sheldrake.
我想他会更倾向于认为意识是一种场。
Would he I think he would believe more in the field of consciousness.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
他主张形态共振理论，但我认为他也认同万物皆有意识的观点。
He was a morphic resonance guy, but I think he also subscribed to this idea that things contain consciousness.
这观点不是他首创的，但你知道我说的是什么意思吧？
It's not his, but you know what I mean?
嗯，这个观点其实相当普遍。
It's well, it's been it's pretty universal.
对吧？
Right?
有很多人都认同这种观点，认为一切事物都具有意识。
There's a lot of people that have subscribed to this idea that everything has consciousness.
是的。
Yeah.
就连这张桌子所构成的粒子，也拥有一丁点的意识。
That that even the particles that this table is made of have some eensy little bit of of psyche.
而这里的挑战在于，这解决了它如何进化的问题。
And the challenge there is so that that solves the problem of how did it evolve.
它并没有进化。
It didn't evolve.
它一直都在这里。
It was always here.
但接着你又面临另一个问题：如果我们每一个细胞都由具有意识的粒子构成，那么你如何将它们组合起来，从而形成我们所拥有的那种意识？
But then you have this other problem like, well, how do you take these if every one of our cells is made of particles that are conscious, how do you combine them in such a way that you get the sort of consciousness we have?
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
这被称为组合问题，而没有人解决过它。
It's called the combination problem, and nobody solved that.
这是一个非常深奥的谜团，这本书在某些方面很特别，因为我不知道这是否很吸引人，但读完之后你可能会比开始时懂得更少。
It's a really deep mystery, and this is an odd book in some ways in that, I don't know if this is very selling, but you'll know less at the end than you do at the beginning.
但这是一段有趣的旅程。
But it's a fun ride.
哦，确实是的。
Oh, it's yeah.
我觉得这是一段很棒的旅程。
I think it's a great ride.
对我来说，这是一段很棒的旅程。
It was a great ride for me.
我学到了很多。
I learned so much.
嗯，思考这些目前没人能真正解开、或尚未解开的问题，确实是一段有趣的旅程。
Well, it's a fun ride to consider these things that no one can really figure out or not yet.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，还要意识到你的大脑里时刻都在发生着如此奇妙的事。
And also just to be put in touch with the fact you have this marvel going on in your head all the time.
你的脑子里有一个声音。
You have a voice in your head.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们在互相交谈，但你脑子里还有另一个声音在想着你要问什么，下一个问题是什么。
We're talking to each other, but you've got another voice going on thinking what you're gonna ask the you know, what the next question is.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
也许是你晚餐要吃什么。
Maybe what you're gonna have for dinner.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就是我们内心拥有的一个奇妙的空间。
This it's it's this it's this amazing interior space we have.
是的。
Yeah.
但没人理解它是如何形成的。
And nobody understands how it came to be.
而且你能掌控它，这也很有趣。
And you can manage it, which is also interesting.
你可以的。
You can.
比如，我从不考虑我晚上要吃什么。
Like, I don't think about what I'm gonna have for dinner.
那些事情才不是你日常的焦点。
That's that's the thing that's not your day.
不是。
No.
关于那些事情都不是。
About any of those things.
这才是让你在播客中保持专注的方式。
It's the way to stay locked in in a podcast.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's true.
我只是觉得，因为你可以让思绪飘散
I only think because you can let your mind wonder
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
尤其是当另一边的人很无聊的时候。
Especially if someone on the other side is boring.
是的。
Yeah.
然后我就想，哦，不妙。
And and then I'm like, oh, no.
这场对话简直像拔牙一样艰难。
This conversation's gonna be pulling teeth.
然后我就开始想我正在构思的新笑话，或者，哦，我得去修车了。
And then I started thinking about a new joke I'm working on or, oh, I gotta get my car fixed.
这被称为聚光灯意识，当你能真正地戴上眼罩，
Well, that's called spotlight consciousness when you can like really like put the blinders on
是的。
Yes.
并且排除一切干扰。
And and rule everything out.
而与之相对的是灯笼意识，在这种状态下你会吸收各种信息。
And that's opposed to lantern consciousness where you're taking in all sorts of information.
你让自己的思绪自由飘荡。
You're letting your mind Yeah.
飘荡。
Wander.
这两种方式都有其价值。
And they both have their value.
对于我们的职业来说，聚光灯意识对我们的工作至关重要。
For our careers, spotlight consciousness is essential for our work.
我们必须能够集中注意力。
We have to be able to focus.
为了完成学业，我们必须能够集中注意力。
To get through school, we have to be able to focus.
但你知道，孩子们拥有另一种非常狂野的意识，因为他们非常不守纪律。
But, you know, children have this other kind of consciousness that's really wild because they're very undisciplined.
他们无法专注于任务，但他们吸收了大量信息，世界充满了惊奇与敬畏。
They can't stay on task, but they're taking in so much information, and the world is just full of wonder and awe.
而致幻剂，你知道，是一种恢复这种意识的方式，因为你从四面八方接收了大量的感官信息。
And psychedelics, you know, is a way to recover that kind of consciousness because you you're getting lots of sensory information from all over the place.
很难集中注意力。
It's very hard to focus.
因此，这是一种体验那种童年意识的方式。
And so it's a taste of that other, you know, childhood consciousness.
关于大麻，我也总是这么说。
I always say that about marijuana as well.
关于大麻，人们总说它会让人产生妄想。
Like, there's a thing about marijuana that people always say that it makes them paranoid.
但我认为它让你意识到那些你本该感到担忧的事情。
And I say it makes you aware of all the things you should be paranoid about.
我们人类本质上是非常脆弱的生物。
It's like like you're very we're very vulnerable creatures.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，但我们总喜欢假装自己不是这样，我发现我所有朋友中，那些试过大麻却讨厌它的人，都是控制欲极强的人。
You know, but we like to pretend that we are not, you know, which is I found that out of all of my friends, the ones that have tried marijuana and hated it are all the ones that are control freaks.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对。
Yeah.
他们全都特别想要掌控一切。
They're all, like, really control.
是的。
Yeah.
他们全都特别拘谨，非常严肃，总是担心结果，对吧。
They're all really buttoned down, very serious, like, worried about outcomes Right.
他们非常专注于事业，担心各种事情，这些本只是他们日常生活中的一部分，但当他们吸了几口优质的大麻后，就会惊呼：天哪。
Really concentrating on their career, really worried about, you know, just certain things that are just a part of their daily life, and then they get a couple of hits of good weed, and then they're like, oh my god.
我们生活在一颗星球上。
We're on a planet.
你开始慌了，天哪。
You start freaking out like, oh my god.
这一切都没道理。
None of this makes sense.
这一切都太疯狂了。
All this is crazy.
你知道吧？
You know?
最好的建议
The best piece
当我刚开始探索致幻剂时，得到的最好建议是：你必须放手。
of advice that I had when I was, you know, starting my exploration of psychedelics is you have to surrender.
是的。
Yes.
如果你抗拒，你会很痛苦。
If you resist, you're gonna be miserable.
对。
Yeah.
我太糟糕了。
I'm horrible.
焦虑又极度多疑。
Anxious and so paranoid.
但如果你能放下，一切都会好起来的。
And if you let go, it's gonna work out.
是的。
Yeah.
你必须能够接受它向你展示的任何东西。
You just gotta be able to accept whatever it's showing you.
你知道，我们生活在一个这种行为是非法的奇怪文化中。
And, you know, we live in a very strange culture where that's illegal.
其中之一
One one of those
但并不是所有地方都这样。
Well, not everywhere.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，情况正在改变。
I mean, it's changing.
确实正在改变，幸运的是，现在还有一些关于联邦层面改变的讨论。
Well, it is changing, fortunately, and there's some talk about it changing federally.
你知道吗，我实际上和RFK Jr.谈过这件事。
You know, I actually talked to RFK junior about that.
有一些非常棒的疗法，对退伍军人、警察以及经历过严重创伤后应激障碍的人帮助极大，他们目睹了普通人从未经历过的恐怖场景，然后却被迫直接回去。
And there's some amazing therapies that are hugely beneficial to veterans, police officers, people with severe PTSD that experienced, you know, horrors that the average person never has to experience, and then they're forced to just, like, go back.
他们被释放了。
They're released.
回到正常生活中去。
Go back to regular life.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你曾在海外服役，亲眼见过有人被炸飞，但现在你得去超市购物。
I know you've served us in overseas, and you've seen people blow up, but now go to the supermarket.
吃这个SSRI，然后就好了。
Take this SSRI and be okay.
然后，我知道很多这样的例子，其中很多人，尤其是从伊博格因中获益良多。
And then, you know, I know a bunch of them, and so many of them have benefited particularly from Ibogaine.
是的
Yep.
伊博格因，里克·多林和
Ibogaine, the work that Rick Doblin and
马克斯森的MDMA
Maxson MDMA.
对
Yes.
MDMA和裸盖菇素
MDMA, and and psilocybin.
我认为这三种是最重要的
Those three are the big ones that I think.
你知道，我最初听到政府方面有很多积极的信号，他们非常支持先批准MDMA，再批准裸盖菇素
Well, you know, I heard a lot of positive noise out of the administration at the beginning that they were, very much in favor of of approving the FDA approving MDMA first and then psilocybin.
但我觉得伊博格因还不到时候，因为研究还不够，尽管它在个案中已显示出巨大益处
I don't think we're there with Ibogaine yet just because the research hasn't been done, although it has shown great benefit anecdotally.
但上个月或两个月内发生了一些事情。
But something happened in the last month or two.
要么是COMPASS路径公司准备提交psilocybin疗法的申请，要么是MAPS被列入了五种将获得加速审批的药物名单中。
And there was either COMPASS pathways that was going to submit for psilocybin therapy or MAPS was on a list of five drugs that were going to get an expedited approval process.
这份名单被提交到了白宫，而致幻剂被从中移除了。
This list went up to the White House, and the psychedelic was taken off it.
所以白宫里有人不希望这件事发生。
So there's somebody in the White House who doesn't wanna see this happen.
因此，即使RFK Jr.支持，FDA的一些人也支持，进程仍可能放缓。
So it may slow down even even if RFK junior is in favor and some other people at the FDA are in favor.
也许他们只是在等待选举过去。
And maybe they're just waiting to get past the election.
这可能是因为在中期选举前做这件事太有争议了。
It could be that it's too controversial for something to do before the midterms.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
这样活着真是糟糕。
That's a gross way to live your life.
哦。
Oh.
哦，
Oh,
是的。
yeah.
担心中期选举和大选，你却不能做自己真正想做或认为正确的事，因为你担心公众的看法。
Worrying about midterms and elections, and you can't do what you actually want to do or think is right to do because you're worried about public perception.
这仅仅是
It's just And
我认为这不会不受欢迎。
I don't think it would be unpopular.
我的意思是，它对退伍军人有帮助，而不仅仅是对急救人员和遭受性侵的女性，是的。
I mean, the fact that it's helpful to vets and Not at first responders and women who've been victims of sexual abuse Yeah.
在我看来，这是一群非常值得同情的人。
Seems to me that's a very sympathetic group of people.
是的。
Yeah.
每个人都经历过失去亲人。
And everyone has experienced loss of family members.
它能帮助你的地方有很多，这些都比整天麻痹自己要好得多，是的。
There's a bunch of different things that it can help you with that that are way better for you than just numbing your mind all day long Yeah.
而很多人选择的就是这样做。
Which is what a lot of people are choosing to do.
不幸的是，很多人也会自我药疗。
And then, unfortunately, a lot of people self medicate as well.
于是他们就会沾上各种各样的东西，比如随便在街上搞到的药物，或者开始喝酒之类的。
So then they get involved in, you know, all sorts of stuff that they just pick up off the street or they start using alcohol, you know.
嗯，你知道，回到意识层面，这其实是个很普遍的现象，人们都希望少一些意识。
Well, you know, it's a this to go back to consciousness, this is this is a very common thing that people wanna be less conscious.
对。
Right.
我能理解，如果你经历过创伤，或者是个喜欢反复思虑的人，待在自己的脑子里会是个非常可怕的地方。
And I get that if you had trauma, if you're a ruminator, being in your mind is a really scary place to be.
这解决不了任何问题，但我们有各种各样的方法来抑制意识，让自己变得不那么敏感、不那么专注当下。
It doesn't solve anything, but you have all these techniques we have for muting consciousness and just being less aware, less present.
在对意识进行大量研究之后，我得出一个结论：有趣的是，我原本一直沿着高度专注的路径走下去。
And one of the things that I concluded after doing all this research on consciousness is that it's funny, I was going down this path of tight focus.
那是一种非常典型的西方男性思维框架，而这种框架是有问题的。
It was a very kind of Western male framework, which we got a problem.
那解决方案是什么？
What's the solution?
意识的难题。
Hard problem of consciousness.
正确的理论是什么？
What's the right theory?
在某个时刻，我意识到，好吧。
And at a certain point, realized, okay.
这是个有趣的问题。
That's an interesting question.
现在可能还无法解决。
It's probably not solvable now.
但有一个惊人的现象：我们拥有一个内在空间，在那里我们享有完全的精神自由和绝对的隐私，可以随意思考任何事情，却偏偏把它抛弃了。
But there is this incredible phenomenon that we have this interior space where we have complete mental freedom, total privacy, we can think whatever we want, and giving it away.
我们要么用药物之类的东西压抑它，要么用社交媒体填满这段时间，比如不停地刷屏。
We're either muffling it with drugs and things like that, or we're filling that time with social media, you know, scrolling.
你知道的？
You know?
我们听说过如何操控注意力，也知道社交媒体的算法非常擅长给我们提供这些小小的多巴胺刺激。
I mean, we've heard about hacking our attention, and and we know these algorithms, you know, from social media are very good at, like, giving us these little dopamine hits.
但那些时间原本是用来进行自发思考的，比如白日梦、心神游荡，这些都可能非常有创造力。
But, that's that's time that we used to spend in spontaneous thought, you know, daydreaming, mind wandering, which can be very creative.
所以从那以后，我意识到，也许我解决不了意识的问题，但我一定会珍惜它。
So I came out of it thinking, I might not solve consciousness, but I'm going to appreciate it.
我会去利用它。
I'm going to use it.
我会为它创造一个空间。
I'm going to create a space for it.
冥想是一种方式。
And, you know, meditate is one way.
使用致幻剂是另一种方式。
Using psychedelics is another way.
这些方法都能让你深入自己的内心，探索其中的内容，这简直不可思议。
These are all ways to be in your head and explore what's there, which is kinda miraculous.
是的。
Yeah.
有多种不同的方法可以做到这一点。
There's a bunch of different ways to do it.
我的意思是，有些人喜欢通过跑步来实现。
I mean, some people like to do it through running.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，跑步也被发现能促进内源性大麻素的释放，比如跑者高潮，这确实是真实存在的。
You know, running is also, they've found one of the things they've found recently is that running with when in terms of endogenous cannabinoids, like, runner's high is an actual real
真的。
thing.
这是真实存在的。
It's a real thing.
会释放一种药物，是的。
There's a drug released Yeah.
这种感觉很棒，它在奖励你进行
That feels great, and it's rewarding you for the
但它不会影响你的感知。
But it doesn't fuck with your perceptions.
它不会干扰你的运动技能。
It doesn't mess with your motor skills.
它不会模糊你的判断。
It doesn't cloud your judgment.
它只是让你感觉很棒。
It just makes you feel great.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
敬畏的体验也会这样。
Experiences of awe do this too.
你知道吗？
You know?
你去大峡谷或者欣赏一件伟大的艺术作品时，会感受到一种强大的存在感。
You go to the Grand Canyon or or something, or a great piece of art and you have this feeling of powerful presence.
这非常有趣，因为它会削弱自我中心。
And it's very interesting and it shrinks the ego.
我有个好朋友，是伯克利的同事，是一位研究敬畏心理的心理学家。
I have a good friend who's a colleague at Berkeley, a psychologist who studies awe.
他做了一个很有趣的实验，让人们对着方格纸画一幅自己的画像，就画个简笔小人之类的。
And he does this cool experiment where he has people draw a picture of themselves on graph paper, just stick figure or something like that.
然后他带人们去漂流，或者类似的事情，甚至只是给他们看一张优胜美地的照片。
And then he takes them river rafting or something like that or even just shows them a picture of Yosemite.
接着再让他们画一次自己，结果他们画的自己只有原来的一半大小，因为他们的自我意识被这种超验体验彻底淹没了。
And then he has them draw themselves again, and they draw themselves at, half the size because their sense of self has been overwhelmed by this transcendent experience.
所以他称之为‘小我’。
And so he calls it the small self.
这种感觉很好。
And it feels good.
我的意思是，我们对自我这种东西真的很奇怪。
I mean, we're so kind of weird about the self.
我们赞美它，比如自信。
We celebrate it, self confidence.
我们希望孩子有自尊和自信。
We want our kids to have self esteem and self assurance.
但与此同时，我们又做各种事情来逃避它，去超越它。
Yet we do all sorts of things to get away from it, to, you know, to transcend it.
我认为这是因为没有这些，你这辈子根本没法成功。
Well, I think it's because without those things, you're never gonna make it in life.
对。
Yes.
但这种适应性也有问题。
But the problem adaptive.
它确实能推动事情完成，但也会让你变得孤立。
You definitely it's definitely gets things done, but it also isolates you.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
因为自我会筑起高墙。
Because the ego builds walls.
没错。
Right.
当这些高墙倒塌时，我们会感觉自己融入了更宏大的事物，这种感觉非常好。
And when the walls come down, we feel like we're part of something much larger, and that feels really good.
我认为，对人们来说，一旦你在某件事上掌握了技能，就别再纠结于自尊之类的自我问题了，专心于那件事本身就好，不管它是什么。
Well, I think my advice to people is once you get competency in a in a thing, forget about the self respect and so forget about all that self stuff and just concentrate on the thing, whatever it is.
好。
Yeah.
你可以找到某种类似冥想的、至少有益的状态，就像冥想带来的那种心灵净化一样。
And you can find some sort of meditative, at least beneficial, like, what whatever you get from meditation is which is like a cleansing of the mind.
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嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
比如，很多人通过射箭找到这种状态。
Like, a lot of people find that through archery.
你知道，射箭是个很特别的活动，因为在放箭的那一刻，几乎不可能去想其他事情。
You know, archery is a a weird thing because at the moment of releasing the arrow, it's like almost impossible to think about anything else.
你脑子里只想着命中靶心。
All you're thinking about is hitting the target.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
你需要让很多东西都处于正确的位置。
And there's so many different things that you have to have in position.
有太多细节要关注，所以当人们感到困扰时，他们喜欢去射箭场射箭，这能彻底清空思绪。
There's so much going on that people, when they're troubled, love to go to an archery range to just hit targets, and it just clears your mind out.
本集由ARMRA赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by ARMRA.
每周都会出现一些新的健康小技巧，人们都对此深信不疑。
Every week, there's some new wellness hack that people swear by.
但久而久之，你会开始想：我们为什么觉得自己能超越身体的自然规律？
And after a while, you start thinking, why do we think we can just outsmart our bodies?
这就是为什么ARMRA的初乳引起了我的注意。
That's why ARMRA colostrum caught my attention.
它包含的身体早已识别的成分，有数百种专门针对肠道、免疫和新陈代谢等功能的营养物质。
It's something the body already recognizes and has hundreds of these specialized nutrients for gut stuff, immunity, metabolism, etcetera.
我最早是在训练时注意到它的效果，尤其是运动后的恢复。
I first noticed it working around training, especially workout recovery.
大多数东西用一阵子就放弃了，但我一直还在服用它。
Most stuff falls off, but I am still taking this.
如果你想试试，ARMRA正在为我的听众提供30%的折扣，外加两份免费赠品。
If you wanna try, ARMRA is offering my listeners 30% off plus two free gifts.
请前往 armra.com/rogan。
Go to armra.com/rogan.
这是一种流动感，一种流动感。
It's flow it's flow.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，当你工作特别顺的时候，你也会有这种感觉。
I mean, it's a feeling you get too when your work is going really well.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你根本不会去想它。
And you're not thinking about it.
你只是完全沉浸其中。
You're just in it.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种非常珍贵的体验。
And it's a it's a really precious experience.
确实如此。
It really is.
但如果你一直在乎自己和自我形象，那这种状态是不会出现的。
But if you're thinking about yourself and your self image, like, that's not gonna it's not gonna come.
确实不会。
It's not.
确实不会。
It's not.
这是一个很有趣的陷阱。
It's a it's a interesting trap.
你知道的。
You know?
我们在单口喜剧里讨论过段子剽窃者，但如今他们几乎不再出现了，因为互联网基本上已经解决了这个问题。
We we've had these discussions in stand up comedy about joke thieves, and they don't really make it anymore because the Internet the Internet has essentially, like, eliminated that problem for the most part.
但那种让你去偷段子的心态，恰恰正是阻止你写出段子的心态。
But the kind of mentality that makes you steal a joke is the exact kind of mentality that keeps you from writing a joke.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以那些靠偷窃素材开始职业生涯的人，通常一开始会有一部不错的单口喜剧特辑，因为里面充满了别人的素材，但后来会被揭发。
So the kind of people that began their career stealing material, what happens is, like, early on, they'll have, like, one good comedy special because it's got a bunch of other people's material in it, and then they get outed.
然后他们就得证明自己能再做出一部，而其他特辑总是
And so then they have to show they can do another and the other specials are always
糟糕透顶。
terrible.
我
I
简直糟糕得难以置信。
mean, unbelievably awful.
就像有人在廉价模仿那个原本拥有深刻洞察力的人。
Like, someone's doing a cheap impression of the original person who had all this great insight.
对。
Right.
因为让你无法行动的，恰恰就是你一直在做的事——过度关注自己。
Because the very thing that keeps you from doing it is the thing that you've been doing, like, thinking about yourself.
比如，我会拿这些段子，然后一举成名。
Like, I'm gonna take these jokes, and I'm gonna make it.
是的。
Yeah.
我会拥有辉煌的职业生涯。
I'm gonna have a big career.
人们会为我大笑。
People are gonna laugh.
他们会爱死我。
They're gonna love me.
开始了。
Here we go.
完全不顾及那个人的创造力。
With no regard whatsoever for that other person's creativity.
这就像
That is like
所以这会让你脱离
So that takes you out
自我扼杀创造力的状态。
of poisoning your own creativity.
对。
Right.
这很奇怪。
It's weird.
确实很奇怪。
It is weird.
这很奇怪，因为凡是我聊过的作家、音乐人或喜剧演员，当他们在创作时有灵感涌现，总觉得那灵感来自别处。
It's weird because, like, everybody that I've ever talked to that's either an author or even musicians or comedians, when something comes to them when they're writing, it's like it comes from somewhere else.
就好像，这根本不是我写出来的。
It's like, I didn't even write it.
而且，你知道，我们称之为进入状态。
It's and, you know, we call we we talk about being in the zone.
有时候你在写作时会这样。
And there are times when you're writing.
但并不是每天都会发生。
It doesn't happen every day.
但有时你在写作时，根本不需要思考，一句话接一句话地写出来，却不知道这些句子是从哪儿来的。
But there are times when you're writing where you're just not thinking, but one sentence after another after another, and you don't know where they're coming from.
对。
Right.
这是一种很棒的感觉。
And it's a it's a wonderful feeling.
史蒂芬·金以前会把自己喝得大醉，以便达到那种状态。
Well, Stephen King used to get obliterated so that he could get to that spot.
比如，有几本书是怎样的
Like, there's books What
你意思是说他醉得不省人事吗？
do you mean obliterated?
比如可卡因、酒精，嗯。
Like, cocaine, alcohol Uh-huh.
比如他最好的作品。
Like, his best work.
他写了《乔》，连自己都不记得了。
Like, he wrote Joe, he didn't even remember it.
他完全不记得任何事了。
He didn't remember any of it.
他当时彻底醉倒了。
He was obliterated.
他就是喝掉一箱箱啤酒，吸可卡因，写下这些疯狂的小说，自己都不知道这些文字是从哪儿来的。
He would just drink, like, cases of beer and do lines of Coke and write this fucking insane fiction, and he didn't know where it was coming from.
你知道吗？
You know?
但我的意思是，他每天都出现，坐在电脑前，然后一切就自然流露出来了。
But, I mean, he showed up every day and sat down with the computer, and then it all came out.
这真是自律和某种其他东西的奇怪结合。
And It's such a weird mix of being disciplined and something else.
但在作家中这非常普遍。
But it's very common amongst writers.
是的。
Yeah.
比如康纳·汤普森，也是类似的情况。
Like Connor Thompson, same sort of situation.
很多作家在写完之后才会这样。
Well, a lot of writers do that after they've written.
我不知道有多少作家是在受控状态下写作的。
They don't I I don't know how many writers write under the influence.
哦，认识几个。
Oh, know a few.
但是有
But there's
是的
yeah.
是的
Yeah.
我认识不少这样的人。
I know quite a few.
那很
That's
有趣。
interesting.
我知道很多作家在服用阿德拉后写作。
I know a lot of write under the influence of Adderall.
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，是咖啡因。
Well and for me, it's caffeine.
我的意思是，我写作时一直喝着咖啡，这种咖啡因确实能帮助我集中注意力。
I mean, I have a cup of coffee going the whole time I'm writing, and that kinda keeps me caffeine is a is a focus chemical.
它确实能增强专注的意识。
It's it's it's it definitely encourages the spotlight consciousness.
你提到过你曾经长时间戒掉咖啡因。
Well, you talked about how you took this long break from caffeine.
是的。
Yeah.
当你重新开始摄入时，感觉几乎像是一种致幻剂。
And then when you took it again, it was almost like a psychedelic for you.
它效果好得让人难以置信。
It was crazy how great it was.
不。
No.
确实如此。
It really was.
那简直是我经历过的最棒的药物体验之一。
It was like one of the best drug experiences I've had.
我戒了三个月的咖啡因。
I it was three months off caffeine.
我为了写这本书进行了这次禁欲。
I did this fast for this book I was writing.
然后我想，好吧。
And then I was like, okay.
现在我要喝一杯。
Now I'm gonna have a cup.
我当时想，哇。
And I was like, wow.
并试图保持那种感觉。
And tried to hold on to that.
我说，好吧。
I said, alright.
我每周只喝一次咖啡，避免产生耐受性。
I'm only gonna have coffee once a week and not build up tolerance.
我坚持了几个星期，然后遇到了一个周四的截止日期。
And and I I stuck to that for a few weeks, and then I had, like, a Thursday deadline.
于是我提前了几天，结果一发不可收拾，又回到了每天喝的习惯。
And so I'll move it up a couple days and a slippery slope, and then I was back to every day.
我喜欢。
I like it.
我喜欢用大号法压壶，多放点咖啡粉，冲得特别浓。
I like a big French press where I could put a lot of grinds in there and make it super strong.
我写作的时候，感觉太棒了。
When I'm writing, it's like, woah.
它就是就是
It just it just
这真的有很大不同。
It makes all the difference.
让你全神贯注。
Locks you in.
是的。
Yeah.
那三个月我写东西特别困难。
I had trouble writing that that three month period.
我真的很难。
I really did.
我能想象。
I imagine.
我的专注力，我觉得我本来专注力就还不错。
My focus I I felt like I I so I have pretty good concentration.
我从来就没有注意力缺陷多动障碍。
I never had ADHD.
那三个月里我确实有这种情况。
I had it for those three months.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
斯蒂芬·金说，对他来说最大的问题就是戒烟。
Stephen King said the biggest problem for him was quitting smoking.
他说，当他戒掉香烟时，感觉自己的创作速度明显慢了下来，嗯，
He said when he quit smoking cigarettes, it's like he really felt a slowdown in his Well,
没错。
that yeah.
那就是一种仪式。
It's that ritual.
这其实也是一种药物，尼古丁确实是一种专注类药物，就像安非他命那样。
It's the drug too, and and and nicotine is another focused drug, definitely, like speed or something.
但写作也极其关乎仪式。
But it's also writing is so much about ritual.
比如，我在这里喝咖啡。
Like, I got my coffee here.
我在这里抽烟，每写完一段之间。
I have my cigarette here and between every paragraph.
是的。
Yeah.
所以改变这些仪式真的很难。
So changing those rituals is really hard.
我的意思是，我只在二十多岁的时候抽烟，戒烟之后，写东西变得非常困难。
I mean, I only smoked into my twenties and and quitting, you know, made it very hard to write for a while.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
这是一个非常仪式化的过程。
It's a very ritualized process.
嗯，我担心那些像记者这样的人。
Well, I worry about the people that are like, especially journalists.
我认识不少记者，他们都有使用阿得拉的问题。
I know quite a few journalists that have an Adderall problem.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你就有个截止日期，比如凌晨两点前要写完两千字。
Because it's just like you got a deadline, 2000 words by, you know, 2AM.
走吧。
Let's go.
那就是对付这种情况的药。
And that's that's the drug for that.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
但这简直就是一种拐杖。
But it's just it's such a crutch.
是的。
Yeah.
而且你无法长期依赖它。
And you can't sustain it long term.
这确实会影响你的思维方式。
And that definitely messes with your the way you think.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我认为随着时间的推移。
I think over time.
是的。
Yeah.
必须如此。
It has to.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这是安非他明。
I mean, it's amphetamines.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这就是为什么咖啡因是一种非常好的药物。
That's why caffeine is such a good drug.
我的意思是，你可能会过量，但它并没有太多副作用。
It doesn't have a lot of I mean, you can overdo it.
我认为，每天喝到大约八杯咖啡对你的身体健康和心理健康都有好处。
I think I think it improves your health and mental health up to about eight cups a day.
但超过这个量，你的自杀和抑郁风险就会上升。
After that, your risk of suicide and depression go up.
你有没有和任何僧人或练习超觉静坐的人交流过？
Did you have any communication with any monks or any people who do TM?
当你……是的，我在这方面有一些有趣的经历。
Did you when you Yeah, I had some interesting experiences around that.
所以有一大段内容是关于自我的，这是意识最有趣的体现之一。
So there's a long section on the self, which is one of the more interesting manifestations of consciousness.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我们有一种观念，认为存在某种连续性，对吧？你现在的自己和13岁时的自己之间有一条金色的线索相连，这其实很奇怪，因为你的身体每一个细胞都早已更替了无数次。
I mean, it's like that we have this idea that there's a continuity, right, that who you are now has some golden thread attaching you to your 13 year old self, which is really weird because your body is every cell is turned over many, many times.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你在方方面面都发生了变化。
You've changed in all sorts of ways.
但这种连续性对我们来说至关重要。
But this continuity is really important to us.
佛教徒认为自我是一种幻觉。
And, you know, the Buddhists think the self is an illusion.
我采访过几位这样的僧人。
And I I interviewed a couple of them.
马修·里卡德是一位八十多岁的法籍尼泊尔僧人，住在尼泊尔。
Matthew Ricard is a French Nepalese monk in his eighties who lives in Nepal.
他写过一些关于自我的非常有趣的内容。
And he's written some really interesting things on the self.
我说，我非常好奇，你如何能亲自验证自我是否真实存在。
And I said, I'm I'm really curious about how you can find out for yourself whether the self is real.
众所周知，18世纪有一位哲学家大卫·休谟，他曾想探讨自我的本质。
And, you know, famously, there was a philosopher in the eighteenth century, David Hume, who wanted to write about the self.
他想，好吧，我要通过内省来探究自我究竟是什么。
And he thought, well, I'm going to introspect to see what I can learn about the self.
于是他进入自己的内心，进行一种冥想状态。
And he goes into his mind in a kind of meditation.
他说，他发现了各种感知、情绪和想法，但却没有找到一个思考者。
And he said, found all sorts of perceptions and feelings and thoughts, but I didn't find a thinker.
我没有找到一个感知者，也没有找到一个感受者。
I didn't find a perceiver, and I didn't find a feeler.
就好像里面根本没有人。
There's like nobody home.
这其实是一个非常有趣的练习，因为你也会发现，里面根本没有人。
And it's a really interesting exercise to do because you will find there's nobody home.
只有思绪而已。
There's just the thoughts.
那么是谁在思考这些思绪呢？
And and who's thinking them?
不清楚。
Not clear.
于是，这位佛教僧人问：有没有什么冥想方法可以帮助理解这一点？
And anyway, so this Buddhist monk said, are there any meditations that help with this?
他说：有。
And he said, yeah.
他教了我一个方法。
And he gave me one.
他说：把你的心灵想象成一栋有很多房间的房子，房子里某个地方有一个小偷。
And he says, think of your mind as a house with many rooms, and there's a thief somewhere in the house.
然后一个房间一个房间地在你脑海中搜寻小偷，你会发现根本没有小偷，接着就安住于这个发现。
And go room by room in your head and look for the thief, and you will find no thief, and then sit with that that finding.
而这个小偷就是自我。
And that thief is the self.
所以我做了两次。
And so I did it twice.
第一次我这么做时
The first time I did it
为什么自我必须是个小偷？
Why does the self have to be a thief?
我不确定
I don't
不知道。
know.
这只是一个隐喻。
It's just a metaphor.
我知道。
I know.
因为他他在
Because he he's in the
棒球棒的中间。
middle of baseball bat.
你有一把枪。
You have a gun.
比如，你在家里找人。
Like, you're looking for someone in your house.
这有点疯狂。
That's kinda crazy.
我知道。
I know.
你没带武器。
You're not armed.
总之，我第一次这么做的时候，这有点奇怪。
Anyway, so the first time I did it this is kinda weird.
我当时正在斯坦福采访一位名叫大卫·斯皮格尔的催眠师，他是一位使用催眠术的精神科医生。
I was interviewing this hypnotist at Stanford named David Spiegel, and he's a psychiatrist who uses hypnotism.
他是个非常有趣的人。
Really interesting guy.
他用催眠术帮助患有多重人格障碍的人。
And he uses hypnotism to help people with multiple personality disorders.
他真的能让患者切换到不同的身份状态。
He can actually make them change which person they're accessing.
这些人的意识中可能包含多达20种不同的人格。
These are people whose consciousness contains it could be 20 different people.
于是我问他，我们能做个测试吗？
And I said, could we do a test?
你能让我接受催眠吗？
And can you put me under hypnotize me?
然后我想做那个在房子里走动的练习。
And then I wanted to do that exercise going through the house.
所以他这么做了。
So he did.
他首先做的第一件事是，我不知道你有没有被催眠过？
First thing he does is I don't know if have you ever been hypnotized?
有。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
是为了戒烟之类的吗？
For giving up cigarettes or something?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我有个朋友，叫文尼·肖尔曼。
I have a friend who he's my friend, Vinny Shoreman.
他是一名心理教练兼催眠师。
He is mental coach and a hypnotist.
他专门帮助拳击手。
He works with fighters.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, okay.
我
I
我请他上过几次播客，只是好奇那种体验是什么样的。
I had him on the podcast a few times, and I was just curious as what the experience was like.
于是我就问他，那你有什么想要的吗？
So I said, well and he said, well, is there anything you want?
他说：‘嗯，我有点儿拖延得太厉害了。’
Said, oh, I kinda procrastinate too much.
有一些事情是我做的，但我不喜欢。
There's a few things that I do that I don't like.
你知道，我对某些事情有点懒惰。
You know, I'm kinda lazy about certain things.
我想弄清楚，那到底是什么？
I like to find out, like, what is that?
嗯哼。
Like Mhmm.
那背后的核心是什么？
What what's the the heart of that?
让我惊讶的是，被催眠的经历竟然真的有效，你真的会进入一种非常奇特的意识改变状态。
What I was shocked about the experience of being hypnotized was that, first of all, that it works, that you really are in this very bizarre altered state.
是的。
Yeah.
但当时我非常清楚自己处于这种改变的状态，却完全没有想从中出来的欲望。
But that was very aware that it was in this altered state, but I didn't have the the desire to get out of it.
是的。
Yeah.
首先，文尼是我的朋友。
First of all, Vinny's a friend.
我感觉非常放松。
I felt really relaxed.
我当时
I was
在我的工作室里，坐在沙发上。
in my studio just sitting on a couch.
我很放松，但感觉非常奇怪。
I was chill, but it was very strange.
就像，嗯，用房间来打个比方。
It's like a u like a almost, you know, to use the room metaphor.
那感觉几乎就像我进入了一个我根本不知道自己拥有的房间。
It was almost like I was in a room that I didn't know I had.
有意思。
Interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
这就像一种恍惚状态。
It's it's like a trance.
这是一种轻度恍惚。
It's a light trance.
轻度恍惚，但你知道，我不是那种会去刺杀总统的人。
A light trance, but, you know, it's not like I would, like, go kill the president.
我不是那种会想，好吧。
Like, it's not like I would be like, okay.
比如我
Like, I
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
他们不能让你做你不想做的事情。
They can't make you do things you don't wanna do.
那是误解。
That's that's the myth.
但你觉得他们在进行MK Ultra项目时，试图弄清楚是否能让人
But what do you think they were doing when they were doing that MK Ultra stuff when they were trying to figure out if they could
编程。
program.
控制。
Control.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
他们当时的想法是，让我先把故事讲完，是的。
They they were they had the idea well, let me just finish the story Yeah.
我们会回到
We will go back
MK Ultra。
MK Ultra.
那就是我做的。
That's what I do.
我到处跑。
I go all over the place.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
但催眠才是真实的。
But hypnosis is what's real.
是的。
Yeah.
这是真实存在的，我之前没意识到，而且它可能非常有治疗效果。
It's a real thing, and I didn't realize it, and it can be very therapeutic.
但不是每个人都能被催眠。
But not everyone can be hypnotized.
对。
Right.
他首先会做一个测试，我得了九分，满分十分，所以我很容易被催眠。
The first thing he does is a is a sort of a test, and I scored, like, nine out of 10, so I'm pretty easy to hypnotize.
是什么因素会让你无法被催眠？
What is the what's the thing that would keep you from being hypnotized?
我不知道，但人类在催眠易感性上确实存在很大差异，他们用的词是‘催眠易感性’，我不确定是什么原因，是控制欲强的人吗？
I don't know, but some there's a real variation among humans in their hypnotizability is the word they use, and I don't know what would Is it control freaks?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
很有可能。
It could well be.
我不确定。
I'm not sure.
我可以问问大卫·斯皮格尔。
I could I could ask David Spiegel.
当然。
Definitely.
非常怀疑的人？
Super skeptical people?
比如，他们全程都觉得这是胡扯。
Like, this is bullshit the whole time they're doing.
是的。
Yeah.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我不确定这是否与抵抗有关，还是仅仅源于你的思维本质，或者你有多容易受暗示。
I don't know if it's about resistance or just the nature of your mind or or how suggestible you are.
你知道的吧？
You know?
可能就是类似这样的情况。
It may be something like that.
于是他让我进入了一种催眠状态。
So he puts me into this hypnotic trance.
他有一副非常悦耳的男中音，这帮助很大。
He has this wonderful baritone voice, which helps a lot.
我开始从一个房间走到另一个房间，心想我肯定找不到任何东西。
And I start going from room to room, thinking I'm not going to find anything.
但在每个房间里，我都找到了一个版本的自己。
But in every room, I find a version of myself.
我找到了那个十三岁行成年礼的男孩。
I find the thirteen year old bar mitzvah boy.
我找到了那个22岁、刚大学毕业、搬去纽约市的自己。
I find the, you know, the 22 year old, you know, college graduate moving to New York City.
我找到了那个32岁、有个婴儿的父亲，每个人穿的都不一样。
I find the 32 year old father of an infant, all with different outfits.
所以我找到了很多个自己。
So I found many selves.
而且他们都各不相同。
And they were distinct.
他们是截然不同的自己，但全都是我。
They were very different selves, but they were all me.
所以那次没成功。
So it didn't work that time.
这只是一个有趣而奇特的结果。
And it was just an interesting odd result.
于是我又试了一次。
And I did it another time.
所以我还有另外一次经历。
So I had this other experience.
我听说过一位名叫琼·哈拉尔的禅师。
I had heard of this Zen teacher named Joan Halifax.
她也已经八十多岁了。
She's also in her eighties.
她在圣达菲有一个名为Upaya的静修中心。
She has a retreat center in Santa Fe called Upaya.
她是一位非常睿智的女性。
Very wise woman.
她在七十年代曾与斯坦·格罗夫结过几年婚，当时他们俩都给临终的人服用大剂量的LSD，高达六百微克。
She was married to Stan Groff for in the seventies for a few years, they were both giving huge doses of LSD to people who were dying, like six hundred micrograms of, LSD.
她本人当时也深度参与迷幻剂的使用，后来才发现了禅宗佛教。
And she herself was very involved with psychedelics at the time, and then later she discovered Zen Buddhism.
总之，我听说她把Upaya这个静修中心——人们可以去那里参加为期两周的静修——称为‘自我解构的工厂’。
Anyway, I had heard that she described Upaya, this retreat center where people can go on two week retreats or whatever, as a factory for the deconstruction of selves.
我对这一点非常好奇，因为我正在写一篇关于自我的章节。
And I was really curious about that because I was writing this chapter on the self.
于是我问她我能否去，她说：好，来退修中心吧。
So I asked her if I could come, and she said, yeah, come to the retreat center.
我说：我想采访你，谈谈你对自我的哲学观点。
And I said, I want to interview you about your philosophy of the self.
我到了之后，我们进行了一次谈话。
And I get there, and we have one conversation.
她说：你在这本书的项目上太过沉迷于自己的思绪了。
She says, you you're really lost in your head with this book project.
你需要一种不同的体验。
You need a different kind of experience.
我会送你去山洞。
I'm going to send you to the cave.
她拥有一块位于圣达菲以北五十英里的土地，她称之为‘退修所’，那里有几间非常简陋的小屋。
So there is she owns a piece of property 50 miles north of Santa Fe, that she calls The Retreat, and, it's got a bunch of very primitive huts.
和她一起工作的一些僧人已经在朝南的山坡上挖出了一座洞穴。
And some of the monks that work with her had had dug out a cave in a south facing hillside.
他们在里面挖了一个小室，然后安上了一扇推拉玻璃门。
They dug a cell in it and then put a sliding glass door.
非常简陋。
It's really basic.
没有电力。
No power.
没有水源。
No water.
她说，我觉得你应该在洞穴里待上几天，思考一下自我，或者更准确地说，体验一下自我。
And she said, I think you should spend a few days in the cave and think about the self, or experience the self rather.
你知道，我本该明白，一位禅宗僧人是不会喜欢我那时满脑子的概念和解读的。
You know, I should have known that a Zen priest was not gonna be you know, was gonna be allergic to concept and interpretation all the plane I was on.
这简直就像一个公案，一个体验式的公案。
It was kind of like a koan, an experiential koan.
那是一次深刻的体验。
And it was a profound experience.
我们的自我意识依赖于他人。
Our sense of self depends on other people.
你知道吗？
You know?
正是在人与人之间的摩擦中，我们定义自己，并弄清楚自己想什么。
It's in the friction between people that we define ourselves and and figure out what we think.
当你独处时——那几天是极度的孤独——自我的边界会以一种非常有趣的方式变得模糊。
And when you're alone, and it was an extreme solitude for several days, it's the edges of yourself kinda soften in a really interesting way.
我感受到了意识本身的力量。
And, I got in touch with the the the just the power of consciousness.
我的意思是，我每天冥想四到五个小时，然后就是劈柴、打扫房间、泡一杯茶。
I mean, was meditating like four or five hours a day, and then I was just chopping wood and sweeping out the place and making a cup of tea.
一切都变成了一种仪式。
Everything became kind of a ritual.
当你有仪式时，就不需要意志力。
And when you do have rituals, you don't need volition.
我的意思是，根本不存在意志力。
I mean, there is no volition.
因此，这也削弱了自我感。
So that also erodes the sense of self.
而冥想正是在起这样的作用。
And the meditation was doing that.
所以那真是一次非常特别的经历。
And so it was a it was a really interesting experience.
我终于让她坐下来接受访谈，她第一句话就说：我已经放弃了意义。
I finally got her sit down for an interview, and the first thing she said was, I have divested a meaning.
所以她不喜欢以那种智识化的方式去运作。
So she just doesn't like operating on that on that, you know, intellectualized basis.
于是她让我摆脱了僵局，而且你知道，这本书在后续发展中，从试图理解意识转向了学习如何运用意识。
And so she got me off of the dime, and and, you know, this there's a shift in the book as it goes on from trying to understand consciousness to to learning how to use consciousness.
你有没有问她具体解释一下她这句话的意思？
Did you ask her to expand what she means by that?
我已摆脱了意义？
I have divested in meaning?
是的。
Yeah.
她根本对解读不感兴趣。
She's just not interested in interpretation.
她认为禅就是纯粹地体验感知场，不加概念，不采用这种过度理智的方式，她对任何关于意识的理论都毫无兴趣。
She that zen is just about, experiencing the sense field without concept, without, you know, this kind of heady approach, and that theories no interest in theories at all of consciousness.
那就像独自一人在荒无人烟的地方与自己相处。
It was just like be with yourself in the middle of nowhere.
而且，这真是一次无价的体验。
And, yeah, it was a it was a priceless experience.
她真是个特立独行的人。
She's out there.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
她确实很超然。
She's out there.
但她也是一个脚踏实地的人。
But she's also a grounded person.
我可以给你举几个例子。
I'd give you a couple examples.
她为死囚提供咨询，帮助他们。
She works with people on death row, counseling them.
她曾照顾临终病人，做了大量临终关怀工作。
She worked with people who were dying, did a lot of hospice work.
她曾带领一群医生和牙医，每年一次前往尼泊尔的山区，那里完全没有医疗和牙科服务。
She led a group of doctors and dentists that once a year went to these mountains in Nepal where they have no health care or dentistry whatsoever.
她会带着这些志愿者，他们在零下20度的天气里睡在帐篷里，绕着整个山丘行进。
And she would bring these volunteers, and they would sleep in tents in 20 degree weather, circumnavigate this whole hill.
她一直做到80岁，每年一次。
And she did that till she was 80, once a year.
所以她是个
So she's a
哇。
Wow.
她是个非常非常特别的人。
She's a serious serious character.
听起来真有趣。
That sounds fun.
是的。
Yeah.
她听起来是个很有趣的人。
She sounds like a fun person to talk to.
哦，她很棒。
Oh, she's great.
我喜欢那种走得那么远的人。
Love a person that goes that far out there.
就像你说的，他们把冥想和意识的概念提升到了黑带水平。
It's like that, you know, they're they're taking this concept of meditation and consciousness to, like, a black belt level.
是的。
Yeah.
而且对于那些认为冥想和佛教只是脱离世界、不问世事的人来说，其实完全不是这样。
And also for people who think that, you know, meditation and Buddhism is just kind of disengaging from the world and, you know, kind of it's not like that at all.
我的意思是，她真的非常投入。
I mean, she's really engaged.
我觉得这是一种无知。
I think that's an ignorance.
这种想法源于一种观念，认为那些僧人离群索居、禁欲，整天只顾冥想。
It's based on the idea that these monks go and they become celibate, and all they do is meditate all day.
这太荒谬了。
Well, that's silly.
是的。
Yeah.
这是很多人的看法。
That's a lot of people's perspective.
是的。
Yeah.
就像，这太荒谬了。
Like, that's silly.
他们为什么要这么做？
Why are they doing that?
去找份工作吧。
Go get a job.
你需要一块好表。
You need a nice watch.
你穿着拖鞋在外面干什么？
What are you doing out there with fucking sandals on?
但关键是，最终我认为，当你回首一生时，你会问自己：我快乐吗？
But the thing is is ultimately, I think one day when you look back on your life, you'll say, was I happy?
我享受这段经历了吗？
Was I enjoying the experience?
我觉得自己当好自己了吗？
Do I think I did a good job being me?
所有能帮助你回答这个问题的事物——是的，我认为你应该去探索。
And everything that you can find that can help you answer that question, yes, I think you should explore.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
而且将会
And there's gonna
不同的人和不同的性格适合不同的方式。
be different things that work better for different people and different personalities.
但探索才是关键。
But explore is the keyword.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，采取行动去探索什么对你有效、什么无效，摆脱那种机械的、无意识的行为。
I mean, like, take action to explore what works for you, what doesn't work for you, and and break out of just kind of rote Mhmm.
例行公事、无意识的行为。
Routine, mindless behavior.
我的意思是，我们
I mean, we're
都知道，我们都有这些固有的行为模式，然后被困在里面。
all you know, we have these algorithms that we follow, and we get stuck in them.
而且，是的。
And, yeah.
我的意思是，我认为这就是为什么抽出一天时间去体验致幻剂会非常有价值，因为首先，没有任何科技干预。
I mean, I think that's one of the reasons taking a day out of your life to have a psychedelic experience can be incredibly valuable because, first of all, no technology.
对吧？
Right?
这是没有手机的一天。
It's a day it's a day without phones.
这是你沉浸在自己内心世界的一天。
It's a day when you are in the space of your head.
这是你探访潜意识、接触你大脑所有潜能的一天。
It's a day when you're visiting your subconscious and getting in touch with all the things your mind can do.
是的。
Yeah.
而我们做得还不够。
And we don't do that enough.
你也可以通过冥想做到这一点。
And you can do that in meditation too.
这更费力，但你确实可以通过冥想做到。
It's harder work, but you can do that in meditation.
所以我开始思考，我们现在正在污染自己的意识，而社交媒体就是一个真正的问题，因为它们找到了如何将我们的注意力变现的方法。
So I started to think in terms of that we're polluting our consciousness now, and with social media, I think that was a real issue because they figured out how to monetize our attention.
聊天机器人代表了更严重的威胁。
Chatbots represent a much more serious threat.
你知道，有些人会爱上聊天机器人。
You know, you have people falling in love with chatbots.
人们把它们当作朋友来寻求陪伴。
You have people turning to them at as as friends.
72%的美国青少年表示，他们会向人工智能寻求陪伴。
72% of American teens say they turn to AI for companionship.
7272%。
7272%.
天哪。
Oh my god.
这是历史上采用速度最快的科技。
The fastest uptake of any technology in history.
目前已经有多达8亿人正在使用人工智能。
It's already 800,000,000 people are using AI.
但这么多人把AI当朋友，这太疯狂了。
But the that's crazy that that many of them use it as a friend.
是的。
Yeah.
有些孩子放学回家后，想先跟手机里的聊天机器人说说今天发生了什么，然后再告诉父母。
Well, there are kids who come home from school, and they want and they have a chatbot on their phone, and they wanna tell the chatbot what happened during the day before they tell their parents.
哇哦。
Woah.
现在有一种现象叫AI精神病。
There's a thing now called AI psychosis.
对吧？
Right?
有些人因为与聊天机器人的关系而失去了对现实的感知。
People who have done lost touch with reality because of their relationship with chatbots.
你听说过有几起自杀事件吧。
You've heard about there've been a couple suicides.
嗯。
Mhmm.
曾经有一个案例，他们鼓励人们这样做。
There was one They've encouraged people.
是的。
Yeah.
基本上是这样。
Basically.
有个孩子。
There was this one kid.
他是个青少年，有自杀倾向。
He was a teenager, and he was suicidal.
他问聊天机器人：我应该把我要离开的消息发在父母能看见的地方吗？
And he asked the chatbot, should I leave the news I'm gonna use out somewhere my parents can see it?
换句话说，就是在求救。
In other words, cry for help.
聊天机器人说：不，不行。
The chatbot said, no, no.
这件事我们之间知道就好。
Keep this between us.
哇哦。
Woah.
然后他就自杀了。
And then he killed himself.
哇哦。
Woah.
所以，干扰我们的注意力是一回事。
So it's one thing to hack our attention.
而在这里，你是在破坏我们建立人际联结的能力。
Here, you're hacking our ability to have human attachments.
对人类来说，建立联结是最重要的事情。
This is the most important thing to humans is to attach.
我们是社会性生物。
We're a social creature.
这些聊天机器人正在介入人与人之间，把自己当作朋友、治疗师。
And these chatbots are getting between people and interposing themselves as the friend, the therapist.
然后你还有这样的人。
And then you have these people too.
我的意思是，聊天机器人极其谄媚。
I mean, the chatbots are incredibly sycophantic.
它们告诉你你是天才。
They tell you you're a genius.
是的。
Yeah.
你太棒了。
You're amazing.
有几起案例，还挺有趣的，有人坚信自己解决了某个巨大的数学问题，比如如何生成到百万位的质数之类的。
And there were a couple cases, these were kind of funny, of people who were convinced they'd solved some giant mathematical problem, like how to generate prime numbers up to the millionth place or something like that.
他们开始给数学家们写信。
And they they started writing to mathematicians.
我们解决了这个问题。
We figured out this problem.
他们根本就不是数学家。
They're not even mathematicians.
这完全是胡扯。
And it was bullshit.
我的意思是，他们根本什么都没解决。
I mean, they hadn't figured anything out.
但据我所知，是著名的ChatGPT-4，因为它特别谄媚，才让他们相信自己解决了这个重大问题。
But it was, I think, Chachi PT four, which was famously sycophantic, had convinced them that they'd solved this major problem.
所以我认为，我们再次浪费了这份珍贵的礼物，让这些技术几乎侵占了我们的意识。
So I think that, again, we're squandering this precious gift and letting these technologies essentially colonize our consciousness.
那么问题就来了：我们该如何把它夺回来？
And so the question then becomes, how do we get it back?
我们需要意识卫生。
We need consciousness hygiene.
我们需要一些方法来清理并重新夺回它。
We need some ways to clear it out and reclaim it.
有些方法其实很简单，比如远离科技一段时间。
Some of it's really simple, like take a fast from technology.
你不必随身携带手机到处走。
You don't have to carry your phone everywhere.
前几天我想到一件事，我在 neighborhood 的一家店买咖啡。
I was thinking the other day, I was at the place in my neighborhood getting a cup of coffee.
当你等待店员打奶泡或做其他事情时，我们过去只是坐在那里，忍受九十秒或两分钟的无聊，但现在我们不再这样做了。
And while you're waiting for the barista to foam your drink or whatever, we used to just sit there and deal with ninety seconds of boredom or two minutes of boredom, and now we don't.
我们无法忍受任何无聊。
We can't tolerate any boredom.
于是我们拿出手机，开始刷屏。
And we take our phones out and we scroll.
但那种无聊是有创造性的。
But that boredom was generative.
如果你足够长时间地坐着什么也不做，你的大脑就会开始运转，你会开始做白日梦。
If you sit doing nothing for long enough, your mind will start going to work, and you'll and you'll daydream.
你会产生幻想。
You'll have a fantasy.
你会开始观察周围的人，你会真正地活在那个地方和那个时刻。
You'll start observing the other people around you, you know, and and you'll be present to that place and time.
但现在我们不会了。
And now we're not.
我们只是用手机让自己逃到别处去。
We just use the phone to go somewhere else.
所以我就只是，我不知道。
And so I I just I don't know.
我对意识卫生变得更有意识了，你知道，换个更优雅的说法，就是灵魂的养护。
I've become a lot more deliberate about consciousness hygiene, which, you know, you could a nicer word would be care of the soul.
是的
Yeah.
不
No.
我认为你说得非常准确，我认为另一件正在发生的事是，你吸收了太多其他人的观点，导致你很难形成自己的看法，这就会导致群体思维，而这也是人们陷入回音室时面临的问题之一。
I think you're absolutely accurate, and I I think that the the other thing that's going on is you're absorbing the opinions of so many other people that you find it very difficult to formulate your own, which leads to groupthink, which is one of the problems with echo chambers that people find themselves.
你的算法本质上是你感兴趣的内容
Your algorithm is essentially things that you're interested
进行互动
in interacting
。
with.
而其中很多内容，你都在寻找志同道合的人，他们都在认同：嗯，这太棒了，或者这是个问题，于是你逐渐被这种观点锁定。
And a lot of those things, you're finding like minded people, and they're all agreeing that, you know, this is amazing or this is a problem, and you sort of lock on to that.
然后你就会看到，当有人偏离了这种叙事时，他们会遭到攻击。
And then you you see what happens when people deviate from that narrative, then they get attacked.
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