#2475 - 安德鲁·贾雷茨基

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这让我很震惊，我想我们大家都默认认为，如果你在监狱里，他们让你拖地或者帮忙端饭什么的，这没什么不合理的。

I mean, that was a shock to me, I think, is that, you know, I guess we all sort of assume, well, if you're in prison and they ask you to mop the floor or you need to help serve the meals or something, you know, that's a reasonable thing to do.

但我们没意识到的是，这些人被租给了州长，送到州长居住的官邸。

I think what we don't realize is that those people are leased out to the governor, to the mansion where the governor lives.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

你知道，那里真是太疯狂了。

You know, where That was crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

被拒绝假释的人被允许在州长官邸的 grounds 上做基础工作，没错。

People that were denied parole were allowed to be on the grounds of the governor's mansion doing, like, groundwork Exactly.

园艺 landscaping

Landscaping

还有其他杂活。

and stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且除此之外，他们还被用于工业劳动。

And beyond that, they're used for labor in industry.

对吧？

Right?

所以这些人每天早上会被用面包车送出去。

So those are those guys are sent out in the mornings in vans.

他们去麦当劳工作。

They go work at McDonald's.

他们在汉堡王工作。

They work at Burger King.

他们在肯德基工作。

They work at Kentucky Fried Chicken.

他们在现代汽车工厂工作。

They work at the Hyundai plant.

他们在百威啤酒分销商那里工作。

They work at the Budweiser distributorship.

所有这些都被归为一类，说是对这些人有好处。

And it's all sort of under the heading of, well, this is good for the guys.

他们能有机会接触社会。

They get to get out into the community.

但这是一种强迫劳动，因为如果他们不接受这些安排，就会受到惩罚，会被关禁闭很长时间。

But it's a forced labor situation because if they don't if they don't accept those assignments, then they're gonna be punished, and they're gonna be punished with long stays in solitary confinement.

他们将受到纪律处分，以便延长他们的刑期。

They're gonna be given disciplinary so that their sentences can be extended.

他们常常因此遭到殴打。

They are often just beaten for that.

所以这实际上是一种延长。

So it's really an extension.

我听过你在节目里谈到吉姆·克劳法，这些法律导致了囚犯租赁制度。

I've heard you on the on on your show talk about, you know, talk about the Jim Crow laws, which led to convict leasing.

而我们现在在阿拉巴马州看到的情况，并不像囚犯租赁。

And what we're seeing in Alabama now, it's not like convict leasing.

这简直就是囚犯租赁。

It is exactly convict leasing.

他们只是把在押人员的劳动出售给各个产业。

They are just selling the labor of incarcerated people to industries.

报酬只有正常工资的几分之一。

For pennies on the dollar of what you would get if you had to pay people.

是的

Yeah.

而且他们的报酬其实挺高的。

And they I mean, they get paid well.

报酬挺高的。

Get paid well.

是的

Yeah.

但你说的是，监狱方面赚得很多，对吧？

But not the the you're saying they, meaning the prisons get paid well.

对。

Yes.

但囚犯们没有。

But not the prisoners.

没错。

Correct.

囚犯能拿到钱吗？

The prisoners get any money?

他们能拿到一点钱。

They they get a little money.

比如，你看到的那个开垃圾车的人，丹尼·丹德里奇，描述了他每天只挣2美元。

For example, the the guy you see who's driving a sanitation truck, Danny Dandridge, describes how he's getting paid $2 a day.

那其他所有工作都是这个标准吗？

And Now is that standard across the board for all those other jobs?

我觉得在那个工厂，所有工作都是这样吗？

I think for that plant, everything?

我觉得对于那份工作，他们确实能拿到一点钱，但除此之外，他们还要支付接送他们去工作地点的面包车费用。

I think for that for that job, they're they get paid a little bit of money, and then on top of that, they're charged for the cost of the van that takes them to the workplace.

他们还要支付必须穿着的制服费用。

They're charged for the uniform that they have to wear.

所以，这些费用和罚款加起来，几乎把他们的收入全都抵消了。

So it's sort of like their their kind of fees and fines that knock everything down to almost nothing.

在很多情况下，每天两美元已经算很多了。

And in a lot of cases, the $2 a day is a lot.

你知道，他们被要求在监狱里做大量无偿劳动。

You know, they're they're required to do lots of work unpaid in the prisons.

他们负责所有的建筑工作。

They do all the construction.

你甚至可以看到那个药物宿舍，连那里的辅导员都辞职不干了。

You could see that even the drug dorm where the the counselor decided to leave his job.

有一所监狱里曾有一位专业的药物辅导员，但没人接替他的位置。

There was a professional drug counselor in one of the prisons, and nobody replaces him.

因此，我们影片中的一个人物劳尔·普尔就开始负责管理药物宿舍。

And so Raul Pool, one of the guys in our film, just starts running the drug dorm.

这个药物宿舍其实获得了联邦政府的资金用于监狱内的药物治疗项目，但这些钱根本没用在正地方，而是进了监狱系统运营者的口袋。

And that's a drug dorm that's getting money from the federal government to pay for drug treatment program in prison, and that money is just not going anywhere or money is just going into the coffers of whoever's running the prison system.

天啊。

God.

那这些钱有问责机制吗？

And is there any accountability for all the money?

有没有人对这些资金进行审计？

Is there any do they do an audit of the money?

有没有人或者是否

Does there or is

实际上根本没有任何有意义的问责机制。

it just There really is not any meaningful accountability.

你知道，我们确实采访过州审计员，花了很多时间跟他交流，但他最后也只能束手无策。

You know, there's like the state auditor who we actually interviewed and spent a lot of time with just sort of threw up his hands.

他说，我真的没办法追踪这些资金的去向。

You know, he said this, there's just no way for me to keep track of this money.

比如，他们从司法部收到了一组极其糟糕的调查结果。

And, you know, for example, they they got this incredibly horrible set of findings from the justice department.

对吧？

Right?

司法部进入了阿拉巴马州监狱系统进行调查，原因是我能解释的，但听起来简直难以置信。

The DOJ went in to the Alabama State Prison System and did an investigation because for reasons I can explain that are kind of incredible.

但不管怎样，他们对整个监狱系统进行了调查，我认为这之前从未发生过。

But anyway, they went in there and they investigated the whole prison system, which I think they'd never done before.

通常情况下，他们只会调查某一家监狱或类似的地方。

You know, usually, they investigate an individual prison or something like that.

他们进去后发布了一份报告，称这种情况已经超出了底线。

And they went in and and and issued a report that said, this is a, you know, beyond the pale.

你们的监狱里正在发生令人发指的暴行。

There's they're horrific things that are happening in your prisons.

有人被谋杀，药物过量致死率和强奸率都是最高的。

People being murdered, and there's the highest rate of drug overdose and highest rate of rape.

而阿拉巴马州的回应是说，嗯，我们认为这不过是些个案，你们根本不懂情况。

And Alabama's response was to say, well, you know, we think that's just anecdotal, and you don't know what you're talking about.

然后他们决定采取的解决方案——也就是我们影片标题中略带讽刺意味提到的‘阿拉巴马方案’，即州长所谈论的那个方案——就是建造新的监狱。

And then they decided that their solution, the Alabama Solution that we sort of ironically talk about in the title of the film, the one the governor talks about, is just to build new prisons.

与此同时，司法部并没有建议建造任何新的监狱。

And meantime, the DOJ did not say to build any new prisons.

司法部指出，你们的问题在于腐败和暴行，你们实际上是在运营一个犯罪组织，因此必须解决根本问题。

The DOJ said your problem is with corruption and brutality, and you have you're operating really a criminal enterprise, and therefore you need to address the underlying problems.

而阿拉巴马州的回应是：司法部说监狱条件不好，所以我们得建新监狱。

And Alabama's response was, well, the DOJ says the prisons are no good, so we gotta build new ones.

嗯，你知道吗？

Well, that you know?

于是他们拿到了一份巨额合同。

So they get a massive contract.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我们总是称它为阿拉巴马州建设部，因为他们除非有机会建点什么，否则根本不会做任何改变，而这对州长的支持者以及所有从事建筑行业的人来说都大有好处。

So we, you know, we always call it the Alabama Department of Construction because they don't really change anything unless they have the opportunity to build something, and that's really good for all the governor's supporters and all the other people who are, you know, in the construction industry.

而且，你知道，他们现在已经启动了这些大型新监狱的建设。

And, you know, they've now started construction on these massive new prisons.

你知道，阿拉巴马州是个小州。

You know, Alabama's a tiny state.

它的规模，我觉得，比挪威的人口还要少。

It's like, you know, smaller population, I think, than Norway.

而且他们预算紧张，却偏偏能凑出数十亿美元的监狱建设计划。

And they've got a tiny budget, and yet they figure out how to put together a multibillion dollar prison construction plan.

一开始他们根本没钱支付。

They can't fund it at first.

州长宣布她要建造这些新监狱，而这些监狱既不是司法部要求的，也无法解决根本问题。

The governor announces she's gonna build these new prisons, which the DOJ did not ask for, and are not gonna solve the problem.

顺便说一下，他们自己也承认，这些新监狱不会缓解囚犯过度拥挤的问题，而过度拥挤是个大问题。

And they admit, by the way, that they're not gonna affect overcrowding, which is a huge problem.

这些监狱的运营容量已经达到200%。

The prisons are operating at, like, 200% capacity.

你知道吗，当人们问到这个问题时，矫正部门负责人被问及这是否会缓解过度拥挤，还是只是床位数量不变？

And, you know, when they're asked about it, the head of the Department of Corrections, they ask him, you know, is this gonna affect the overcrowding and he or is it just the same number of beds?

他回答说，不会。

And he goes, no.

床位数量是一样的。

It's the same number of beds.

我们都知道，这不会缓解过度拥挤的问题。

We're you know, it's not gonna affect overcrowding.

所以他们在建造这些庞大的新设施。

So they're building these massive new facilities.

州长无法为这些项目筹到资金。

The governor can't get them paid for.

她无法通过发行债券筹集到资金。

She can't raise the money in a bond offering.

于是他们转向了政府提供的新冠援助资金，而这些资金本不是用来建监狱的。

So they go after the COVID money that they got from the government, which is not designed to build prisons.

对吧？

Right?

很难辩称建造监狱能缓解其他某种健康问题之类的。

It's very hard to argue that building prisons is something that's gonna relieve some other kind of health problem or whatever.

然后我认为他们会因此被罚款，如果你把政府资金用于不该用的用途，就必须支付罚款。

And then I think they get fined for that or they're they're they're you have to pay a fine if you use government money for a thing that's not supposed to be for.

然后当他们开始施工时，仍然筹不到钱，但他们在立法机构授权之前就已经开始建造新的监狱了。

And then when they start construction, they still can't raise the money, but they start building the new prisons even before they're authorized by the legislature.

这清楚地表明，这些监狱一定会建成。

That's how clearly it was communicated that these prisons were going to happen.

你知道的？

You know?

换句话说，我们在阿拉巴马州有一个团队在观察一座计划建造的大型监狱的选址，那里只有豆田。

In other words, we we had a crew in Alabama that was watching this site of this one massive prison that they were planning on building, and there were just bean fields.

实际上，那地方还挺美的。

And it's quite beautiful, actually.

有一天，我接到一个电话，对方说：‘我们得开始拍摄了，因为这里有25台挖掘机。’

And one day, I get a call from somebody, and they say, we gotta start filming because there are 25 earth movers here.

我说：‘这不可能，因为立法机构还没批准新建监狱。’

And I said, well, that's impossible because the the the legislature hasn't even approved the new prison construction.

他们说：‘监狱建设公司知道内情，已经花了数十万美元来清理场地。’

And they said, well, the prison construction companies know what's happening, and they're already spending hundreds of thousands of dollars just to clear the site.

所以，这个新建监狱项目早就内定好了，州长宣布建造三座新监狱将耗资9亿美元。

So the fix was in on this new prison construction, and the governor announced that it was gonna cost $900,000,000 to build three new prisons.

到目前为止，他们已经破土动工，第一座监狱的建设进展顺利，成本已涨至13亿美元。

So far, they've broken ground and are far along on the first prison, and it's up to $1,300,000,000.

所以，当你打开这扇门时，就会涌入大量的商业活动。

So when you open that door, a whole lot of of whole lot of commerce comes in.

大量的公司会涌入。

A whole lot of companies come in.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们问为什么会这么贵？

And they ask them why it went so why was it so expensive?

为什么一个监狱的造价会从3亿美元涨到13亿美元，而且还在继续上涨？

Why how did it go from $300,000,000 for one prison to $1,300,000,000 for one prison and counting?

他们说，嗯，这是通货膨胀，但我知道，政府肯定不会说我们现在有400%的通货膨胀。

And they said, well well, you know, it's inflation and, know, meanwhile, like, I'm I'm pretty sure that the government's not gonna say that we got 400% inflation at the moment.

所以这简直就是制度化的盗窃。

So it's it's, you know, it's kind of institutionalized thievery.

是的。

Yeah.

这是有组织的犯罪。

It's organized crime.

是的。

Yeah.

当你负责决定什么是犯罪时，就是这样。

That it mean when you are in charge of deciding what's crime Yeah.

你正在管理像阿拉巴马州这样的州。

And you're running a state like Alabama.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我认为，金钱在司法系统中是一个非常扭曲的因素。

And I think, you know, money in the justice system is a very perverting factor.

你知道，我拍了一部叫《罪恶之城》的纪录片系列，主角是罗伯特·格雷特

You know, I made this film this series called The Jinx and Robert Great

顺便说一句，这真是个超棒的系列。

great fucking series, by the way.

谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

疯狂。

Crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

你看着这一切，心里想：什么？

Like, you you watch this going, what?

对。

Yeah.

这是真的吗？

Is this real?

是的。

Yeah.

我也是。

Me too.

我的意思是，你知道，他是个令人惊叹的、非常值得观察的人。

I mean, you know, he's he's an incredible he's an incredible person to watch.

但关于他的一点是，你知道，那个家族价值90亿美元。

But one thing about him is, you know, that family's worth $9,000,000,000.

这可不是美国普通意义上的富人。

This is not like a regular rich person in America.

这是超级超级富有的那种人。

This is an extra super duper rich person in America.

他在三十年里杀了三个人，却一直逍遥法外，没受到惩罚。

And he's killed three people over thirty years and just walking around, gotten away with it.

与此同时，你看看得克萨斯州布拉索斯县监狱里的年轻女性、母亲们。

Meantime, you have, you know, young women, moms in Brazos County Jail in Texas.

你知道，我们共同的朋友杰夫·罗斯在那里拍了一部纪录片，他采访了那些被关押的女性，问她们：你们为什么被抓进来？

You know, our mutual friend Jeff Ross did a a a documentary there, and he interviews the girls that are in there, and he says, what are you in here for?

其中两个人说：我因为偷了婴儿配方奶粉而入狱。

And two of them say, I'm in here because I stole baby formula.

所以你知道，钱在这儿意义重大，这太疯狂了。

So, you know, that's a money money means a lot in this That's crazy.

是的

Yeah.

金钱这件事到处都是问题。

The money stuff is is all over the place.

你知道，这就是金钱对体制的扭曲，比如这些大型私营监狱公司，像Geo Group和CoreCivic，靠让监狱满员来赚钱。

You know, it's the the the perverting of the system with money you see because, you know, for example, these big prison companies like Geo Group and CoreCivic make money by having full prisons.

你知道吗？

You know?

它们是私营监狱公司，但还有很多公司为公立监狱、州立监狱提供服务，比如Cisco这些公司，还有提供食品的公司。

They're private prison companies, but there are lots of prison there are lot of companies that provide services to public prisons to to to state prisons like, you know, Cisco and all these companies that sell food there.

但监狱人越多，每个人赚的钱就越多。

But everybody makes more money if the prisons are full.

所以，CoreCivic的负责人不久前刚开了一次股东电话会。

And so you have the the head of of of CoreCivic just did a a shareholder call not too long ago.

我想他叫欣宁格。

And he's Hinninger, I think his name is.

他们问，你知道吗，你觉得前景如何？

And and they said, you know, what do you think what's the outlook?

他说，哦，由于新建了移民监狱，以及所有监狱和对执法与监禁的更多重视，这真是我职业生涯中最令人兴奋的时刻。

And he said, oh, with all the new immigration prisons and all the prisons and all the increased, you know, emphasis on law enforcement and on incarceration, you know, this is the most exciting time in my career.

天哪。

Oy.

所以，你知道，你每天都在真正地构建这个监狱工业复合体，尤其是现在，我觉得是这样。

So, you know, you're really building this prison industrial complex every day, especially right now, I think.

所有这些人都在做坏事。

And all these people are doing they're all doing bad stuff.

你知道，有一家公司叫Securus，由汤姆·戈尔斯经营，他是个大老板，拥有活塞队（底特律活塞队）和其他一些球队，还是个身家约100亿美元的私募股权人士。

You know, there's a there's a company called there's a company called Securus, which is run by Tom Gors, who who is a big team owner, owns the Pistons, the Detroit Pistons, and some other teams, and he's a private equity guy worth about $10,000,000,000.

他的公司Securus为监狱系统提供通信服务。

And his company, Securus, does communications for the prison systems.

他们与那些拥有拘留所的治安官部门达成了协议，这些协议现在已经被曝光了。

And they made deals that have now been sort of exposed, but they made deals with sheriff's departments where they had jails.

他们说，与其让孩子去监狱探望父母，真正见到他们、拥抱他们，或许还能获得一些正常感，不如安装视频探视终端。

And they said, instead of letting kids visit their parents in jail and actually get to see them and hug them and maybe have some kind of normalcy, Let's install video visit terminals.

所以，表面理由是视频探视很棒，因为你不必开车横跨整个州去看亲人。

So the the cover story was the video visits are gonna be great because you don't have to drive across the state to see your loved one.

但合同中明确要求必须取消面对面的探视。

But the contract specifically said that they had to replace in person visits.

所以，当一个孩子去探望父亲时，即使他就在监狱等候室里，离父亲只有二十码远，他也必须使用视频终端，二十分钟收费12.99美元，而且不允许他与父亲面对面相见。

So when a kid went to go visit his dad, even if he was 20 yards away from him in the prison waiting room, he had to use a video terminal, which cost $12.99 for twenty minutes, and he was not allowed to see his dad in person.

所以，这就是一个例子，你知道的，这白纸黑字写在合同里。

So so that's an example of, you know, and that's in the contract.

这正是Securus合同中规定的，必须取消面对面的探视。

That's in the Securus contract that said that they have to eliminate the in person visits.

当你允许利润动机主导这些本应具有道德考量的国家机构时——理论上，我们应当采取某种对社会有意义、有助于社区建设、维系亲情关系的方式，帮助被监禁者与亲人保持联系。

So when you allow that for profit motive to be driving things in these, like, state institutions where theoretically we should, you know, have some kind of, like, moral approach that makes sense for society or, you know, can help community or build our relationships or help people stay in touch with their loved ones when they're incarcerated.

一旦把盈利动机引入其中，整个系统就注定沦为剥削工具。

When you add that for profit motive there, the system is just designed to exploit.

很自然，所有这些探访都有其价值，每一次探访都意义非凡。

It just is natural that all those people have to get you know, they all have it's all there's a there's a kind of a a value to every visit.

每次我探访时，每次孩子来看父母，都值12.99美元。

Every time I visit you know, every time a kid comes and visits a parent, it's worth $12.99.

既然能收12.99美元，为什么还要免费做呢？

Well, why do it for free if you can get $12.99 for it?

这是否反映了人性中与金钱相关的一个阴暗面？如果很多人不受约束，只要有机会通过损害他人利益来赚更多钱，他们就会这么做。

Is it one of the darker aspects of human nature in regards to our relationship with money if that so many people, if unchecked, if you give them the opportunity to make more money at the expense of other people, they do it.

是的。

Yep.

他们就是会这么做。

They just do it.

是的。

Yep.

尤其是在企业体制下，他们尤其会这么做。

They do especially in under the framework of a corporation.

公司的体制让你能够分散责任，因为你不会觉得自己在做这种可怕的事情。

The framework work of a corporation allows you to have a diffusion of responsibility because you don't think that you're the one doing this horrible thing.

这是你为之工作的机构，我只是在完成我的工作而已。

It's this thing that you work for and I'm just doing my job.

是的。

Yep.

而且，如果你身处一个腐败的体系中，而这份工作就是你的职责，当你认为那些人都是这个腐败体系中的‘好人’时，这种想法会减轻你对腐败带来的负面感受。

And also, if you're involved in a corrupt system and this is your job and you think of these people as all good people that are part of the corrupt system, it sort of minimizes the horrible feelings that you have about that corruption.

你只是把它置之脑后。

You just dismiss it.

我真的相信，以前听过你谈过责任分散这个概念。

I I really believe I've heard you talk about diffusion of responsibility before.

我认为，正是这种机制让很多人不必去面对那些艰难的问题，这才是推动这一切的关键。

I I think it's it's it's such a huge part of what drives all this is that you have people who don't really have to ask themselves the hard question.

我是不是那个在剥削别人的人？

Am I the person that's exploiting somebody?

我是那个对妈妈乱收费的人吗？

Am I the person that's overcharging a mom?

我是那个为他们的药物收取天价费用，或任由人因医疗忽视而死亡的人吗？

Am I the person that's charging somebody a crazy amount of money for their medication or or allowing somebody to die from medical neglect?

因为一旦有了公司，你看看那个组织架构图，你会觉得，哦，这真是推动商业有序运转的好方式。

Because once you have a corporation and you look at that org chart, you know, you could see the org chart as, oh, that's a nice orderly way of getting commerce to move forward.

但这也意味着千百个责任点。

But it's also a thousand points of responsibility.

每一个人都只承担一点点责任。

Every one of those per those persons just takes a tiny measure of responsibility.

我只是在会计部门工作而已。

Well, I'm I'm just in the accounting department.

我的意思是，我并不制定规则。

I mean, I, you know, I don't I I don't make the rules.

我不制定法律，你知道的，你在医疗行业就能看到这种情况，人们在记录他们与医疗提供者或保险公司的通话时说，‘对不起。’

I don't make the laws, you know, and you see that, you know, in the health care industry, people recording their their calls with their health care providers or their insurance companies saying, oh, I'm sorry.

我真的无法回答。

I really can't answer.

这不属于我的职责。

That's not my job.

有人会做这个决定。

Somebody else makes that decision.

因此，当你面对这些庞大的组织时，非常糟糕的事情就会发生，就像千刀万剐一样。

And so when you have these massive organizations, there's a way for very bad things to happen in and it's like the death of a thousand cuts.

而且每个人都在试图最大化利润。

And it's also everybody's trying to maximize profit.

当你追求利润最大化时，就会找到各种理由来合理化这些行为。

And when you're trying to maximize profit, you just find some ways to justify things.

你的主要工作并不是帮助别人。

Like, your your main job is not to help people.

这些监狱并不是改造中心。

These prisons aren't rehabilitation centers.

你试图通过让人们在获释后成为社会中有功能的成员来获利。

You're trying to make like, you you actually profit off people becoming, like, functional members of society once they get released.

那将会很棒。

That would be amazing.

那样的话，你就有了动力去让监狱里的人变得更好。

Then you'd have an incentive to make people better people in prison.

想象一下，如果他们的利润取决于人们真正得到改造、重返社会，并成为能够做出贡献的、合格的社会成员。

Like, imagine if their profit was based on people being real rehabilitated, reentering society, and becoming, you know, functional, proper members of society where they contribute.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这些激励机制已经完全扭曲了。

I mean, the incentives are so they're so They're twisted.

是的。

Yeah.

它们太扭曲了。

They're so twisted.

就像那句老话，金钱是万恶之源。

It's like that saying money is the root of all evil.

但它并不是万恶之源。

It's not the root of all evil.

不过，它确实是大多数恶的根源。

It's the root of most of it, though.

比如，占了很大一部分。

Like, a giant percentage of it.

是的。

Yeah.

也许邪恶的75%都源于此。

Maybe it's 75% of evil.

剩下的那部分，大概是欲望吧？

The rest of it's like, what, lust?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我想是金钱带来的嫉妒吧。

I mean, my I guess money jealousy.

是的。

Yeah.

但金钱确实是许多邪恶的根源，你知道的，不管其他那部分是什么。

But that's the root of a lot of evil, you know, whatever whatever the other percentage is.

但金钱，也许占60%？

But money, 60% maybe?

咱们宽容点好吗？

Let's be charitable?

金钱是大量他妈的邪恶的根源，老兄。

It's the root of a lot of fucking evil, man.

当这一切发生在企业体系框架内时，它就变得如此扭曲，因为它无处不在。

It's it's and when you can do it inside of this framework of a corporation, it's so twisted because it's ubiquitous.

它存在于几乎所有行业中。

It exists in almost all industries.

总会有这样的情况，比如这就是为什么人们在那位医疗行业高管被枪杀时庆祝的原因。

There's always whether it's the like, this is the reason why people celebrated when that health care executive was shot.

对。

Right.

他们说，伙计。

They were like, hey, man.

去你们的。

Fuck you guys.

是的。

Like, yeah.

终于，你们中有一个遭报应了。

Finally, one of you guys got it.

我失去了父亲。

I lost my dad.

我失去了妈妈。

I lost my mom.

我失去了姐姐。

I lost my sister.

你知道，这种破事存在于每一个该死的行业里。

You know, that kind of shit is in every fucking industry.

是的。

Yeah.

无论是军工复合体、医疗保险体系，还是制药行业，当你看看萨克勒家族对阿片类药物所做的事时。

Whether it's military industrial complex, whether it's the health insurance complex, whether it's pharmaceutical drug industry, when you look at the Sackler family and what they did with opioids.

你肯定看过网飞的《彼得堡》。

You you've I'm sure you've seen the Netflix, the Peterburg

对。

Yep.

网飞的《止痛药》，对。

Netflix painkiller Yep.

系列。

Series.

对。

Yep.

简直不可思议。

Fucking incredible.

简直难以置信，那个家伙居然还能自由自在地到处走。

It's just incredible that that guy's just walking around.

你对不知多少人的死亡负有责任。

You're irresponsible for the death of who knows how many people.

因为谁知道有多少人，因为那些上瘾者的朋友或家人，也失去了生命，失去了一切，因为你面对的是一个完全迷失、沉溺于毒瘾的兄弟或母亲。

Because who knows how many people that had relationships with the people that got addicted also lost their lives, also lost everything because you're dealing with a brother or a mom that's completely lost and addict.

你的生活现在已经被这种情况彻底毁掉了。

You've got your your life is hijacked now by this situation.

你失去了你的父亲。

You've lost your dad.

你失去了你的妈妈。

You've lost your mom.

你失去了配偶。

You lost a spouse.

该死。

Fuck.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你知道，我经常听你谈论心理健康。

I mean, you know, you I I I've heard you talk a lot about mental health.

显然，心理健康问题有很多成因，其中包括社交媒体。

And, obviously, there are a lot of causes of mental health problems, and, you know, that includes social media.

它还包括孤立感。

It includes sort of alienation.

它还包括社会中普遍存在的一些其他因素。

It includes a lot of things that are that are, you know, present in society.

但监狱工业复合体以及亲人被监禁的经历对心理健康有着巨大影响。

But the but the prison industrial complex and the and the experience of having somebody incarcerated has a huge impact on mental health.

你知道，我认为人们没有意识到，当有两百万人被关在这些设施里，其中许多人每天都在遭受创伤，无论是目睹他人被杀，还是时刻生活在对生命的恐惧中。

They you know, I think people don't realize when you have 2,000,000 people locked up in these facilities and many of them are just being traumatized every day, whether they're seeing somebody get killed or they're constantly in fear for their life.

你竟然还指望这些人十年后出狱时能好起来，重新融入社会。

The idea that those people are gonna somehow be okay when you wanna let them out ten years later, and they're gonna rejoin society.

你只给他们五十美元和一张巴士票，然后说：嘿。

You give them $50 and a bus ticket, and you say, hey.

我希望你能成为纳税人。

I hope you can become a taxpayer.

但与此同时，他们连一晚的住宿费都付不起。

Meantime, they don't have enough money to pay for one red roof in for one night.

他们出狱后根本无能为力。

They can't do anything when they get out of prison.

然后我们却问：为什么再犯率这么高？

And then we say, well, why is there such high recidivism?

我想这意味着他们是坏人，所以就把他们再关回去。

I guess that means they're bad people, so let's put them back in.

对。

Right.

你知道的？

You know?

因此，对于被监禁的人以及他们的家人来说，心理健康的影响是巨大的，正如你所说。

So the mental health implications for the people that are incarcerated are huge and the people who are in their families, as you say.

你知道的？

You know?

想象一下这种焦虑。

Imagine the anxiety.

你没有任何家人，他们只给你50美元，然后你就被放出来了。

You don't have any family members, and they're gonna give you $50, And now you're out.

你得想办法吃饭、找个地方住，还要设法赚钱。

And you have to figure out how to eat, how to get a roof over your head, and try to figure out a way to earn money

是的。

Yeah.

只有50美元。

With $50.

是的。

Yeah.

但确实有办法做到。

And there are ways to do it.

你知道，这一切听起来都很黑暗、很可怕，而事实也确实如此。

You know, there there if you go into the I mean, all this sounds very dark and horrible, and it is.

但当你给予他们机会在社会中成长时，你能看到很多积极的进展。

But there are a lot of there are a lot of of positive developments that you can see when you give them a chance to to grow in society.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，比如，你提到的社区，你知道，建立社区、把国家视为我们的共同体的重要性。

So so for example, like, love what you say about about community, you know, about the importance of building community and seeing the country as our community.

如果我们折磨自己社区里的人，对我们社区的人施以残忍，这说明了什么？

And, you know, if we're torturing people that are in our community, if we're being cruel to people that are in our community, what does it say about us?

没错。

Right.

你知道，这说明了基督教的什么？

You know, what does it say about about about Christianity?

这又说明了上帝的什么？

What does it say about, you know, about about God?

这说明了宽恕的什么？

What does it say about forgiveness?

显然，我们看到有很多例子表明，人们正在努力做得更好。

And clearly, we see that there are so many instances where people are trying, you know, trying to do something better.

阿拉巴马州有一位名叫埃里卡的女性，她是一名心理健康专业人士，她向我讲述了为被监禁者提供心理健康服务的经历。

There's a there's a woman named Erica in Alabama who was a mental health professional, and she described to me what it was like to try to give mental health services to people who are incarcerated.

我当时在思考，看着这些关押人的地方和那些单人牢房的图片——那些狭小的牢房里只有一个送餐口，你知道，他们被关在五英尺乘八英尺、没有窗户的房间里，可能一关就是好几年。

And and I was trying to figure out, you know, looking at these images of the places that they keep people and these cells, these solitary cells with just a little tray slot and, you know, they're in there for in a five by eight room with no windows, and they could be in there literally for years.

我对她说：那你能不能告诉我，当你和某人进行会谈，试图和他们讨论自杀念头或其他各种问题时，那会是什么样子？

And I said to her, well, can you tell me, like, when you do a session with somebody and you're trying to, you know, talk to them about their suicidal ideation or their various problems, You know, how what does that look like?

这种情况是怎么进行的？

How does that work?

她回答说：嗯，说实话有点不舒服，因为我要跪着。

And she goes, well, you know, it's a little it's a little uncomfortable because I, you know, I gotta be on my knees.

我说：等等。

And and I said, wait.

你为什么得跪着？

Why are you why are you on your knees?

她说：哦，因为我必须通过送餐口和他们说话。

She said, oh, well, I have to be able to talk through the tray slot.

我说：所以，当你为被监禁的人提供心理健康咨询时，你是不能开门的？

And I said, so when you're giving a mental health counseling session to somebody who's incarcerated, you're not allowed to open the door.

你也不能见到对方，除非那个人正在发作暴力行为之类的情况。

You're not allowed to see assuming that person's not, like, having a violent fit or something like that.

你不被允许坐在他们对面进行对话。

You're not allowed to sit down across from them and have that conversation.

她说，不行。

She said, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

但没关系。

But it's okay.

我只是把嘴凑到送餐口，心想，当你想到这种做法竟然会被视为能给那些在监狱中深陷心理危机的人带来些许慰藉时。

I I just put my mouth up to the tray slot, and I just thought, you know, when you think about the the idea that that's gonna be somehow something that will give relief to somebody who's really struggling with a mental health crisis in prison.

我们所做的只是最低限度。

You know, we're doing the absolute minimum.

我们只是完成了‘每月一次精神评估’这个形式上的任务。

You know, we're checking the box that says, yeah, once a month, this guy has a psychiatric evaluation.

没有人会拍下这一幕并展示出：这位理想的年轻心理健康工作者，跪在一个布满血迹的金属牢房外，与里面的人交谈的真实情景。

Nobody's taking a picture of that and showing what it really looks like to have this nice, you know, young lady, this idealistic young mental health person kneeling outside of a a metal cell with, you know, bloodstains on it talking to somebody inside.

通过送饭口。

Through a food slot.

通过送饭口。

Through a food slot.

而这可能是这个人除了狱警之外，与人类唯一的互动。

And that's probably the only interaction this person has with human beings other than the guards.

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

别说了，停下。

Mean, stop.

太残忍了。

Very cruel.

是的。

Yeah.

你一个人被关在那个牢房里，这对心理健康也非常糟糕。

And you're alone in that cell, which is also terrible for mental health.

简直没有比彻底的完全孤立更伤害心理健康的事了。

Like, there's nothing worse for mental health than complete total isolation

是的。

Yeah.

而且什么都接触不到。

With no access to anything.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你有没有过与朋友或家人被监禁相关的经历？

You ever had experiences with people, friends, or or family who've been incarcerated?

哦，有啊。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

挺多的。

Quite a few.

那感觉怎么样？

What's that been what what's that been like?

我有个朋友，小时候和我一起练武术，大概十六七岁的时候，他进了监狱。

Well, I had this one friend that I used to do martial arts with when I was a kid, and when I was probably around 16, 16 or 17, he wound up going to jail.

我不太了解他，但我知道他是那个参加比赛的人，他会来和我们一起训练，是个相当强悍的家伙。

I didn't know him that well, but I knew him as this guy who competed in tournaments and, you know, he would show up and train with us and he's just pretty tough guy.

他进监狱后又出来了，首先，体型变得大了很多。

He went into jail and he came out, first of all, much bigger.

他浑身都是肌肉。

He was just like stacked with muscle.

他身上的所有纹身都被烧掉了。

All of his tattoos, he burned off.

所以现在他身上到处都是巨大的瘢痕疙瘩，盖住了所有纹身，整个人完全变了，像一头暴力的野兽，和他对打简直吓人。

So he had scars, like these big keloid scars over all of his tattoos now and he was a completely different person, like a violent animal, like a terrifying guy to spar with.

如果你和他对打，你就会知道，那根本不是普通的对打，完全没有保留。

If you spar with him, you were you were in a it wasn't there was nothing no holding back.

一般来说，对打的时候，大家只会用一定比例的力量去击打对方。

Sparring, for the most part, when you like people, you're hitting them only a certain percentage of your strength.

但这家伙完全不是这样。

This guy was not doing any of that.

他做每件事都是全力以赴。

He was full blast with everything.

就像一只困兽。

It was like a caged animal.

当我跟他更亲近之后，实际上他在出狱后我和他的关系比之前更近了，因为我花更多时间和他对练、一起待着、训练，还和他一起参加团体课程。

And as I got to be closer to him, I actually became closer to him after he got out of prison than he was before, you know, because I just spent more time sparring him and hanging out and training with him and, you know, being in these group classes with him.

他开始跟我讲他在监狱里的经历，讲他是如何为生存而战。

He started telling me these stories about what it was like in jail and just fighting for his life.

他得同时对付三个人，于是捡起一把扫帚，狠狠地揍了那个家伙。

He had to take on three guys and he picked up a broomstick and he was beating this guy.

他跟我讲这些疯狂的故事，说有人在监狱里想杀他，你知道的，他因为贩毒坐了三年牢，出狱后马上又回去贩毒。

He's just telling me these crazy stories of guys trying to kill him in jail, you know, and he was in there for three years for drug selling and then he went right back to selling drugs.

他最终又被逮捕了，我以前讲过这个故事，但真的有点离谱。

And he eventually got arrested, and I've told this story before, but it's got kind of crazy.

他们发现了一个全身骨头都被锤子砸碎的人，还通过注射可卡因让他保持清醒。

They found a guy that had every bone in his body broken with hammers, and they kept him awake by injecting him with cocaine.

他们不断给他注射可卡因，然后砍掉了他的手臂。

They kept injecting him with cocaine, and then they cut his arms off.

他们砍掉了他的双手，接着砍下他的头，后来找到了他的尸体。

They cut his hands off, and then they cut his head off, and they found his body.

但他的所有骨头都被打碎了，而我从小认识的这个人却因此被捕。

But it's like all of his bones have been chattered, and this guy that I knew as a kid got arrested for that.

他们最终没有对他就这件事提起诉讼。

They never wind up trying him for that.

他们把他带去问话。

They brought him in for questioning.

他肯定知道一些内情。

He definitely knew something about it.

他知道行凶者是谁，或者至少了解一些情况，但这一切都与毒品有关，而他当时在贩售可卡因。

He knew either the people that did it or knew something, but it was all drug related and he was selling cocaine.

从那以后，我就和他失去了联系。

And then, I lost touch with him after that.

这真是个疯狂的故事。

That's a crazy story.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

我认识不少这样的人，因为格斗圈里有很多人热衷于参加竞技比赛。

I knew quite a few guys like that because the world of, fighting, like people that are interested in in in entering in competitions with people.

你会遇到很多有心理问题的人，很多非常愤怒的人，他们大多来自暴力家庭。

You get a lot of troubled people, a lot of very angry people, you know, a lot of them that come from violent households.

他们小时候被殴打，或者被欺凌，就我所处的环境而言，那已经是相对最温和的情况了。

They were beaten as children or they were bullied as kids depending on where I came from, like, the most mild of those environments.

我没有人虐待我。

I didn't I didn't have anybody abusing me.

我住在波士顿的郊区。

I lived in the suburbs of Boston.

我住在牛顿，那是个非常好的社区。

I lived in Newton, which is a really nice neighborhood.

我只是对武术感兴趣，然后被通过比赛提升自我的想法深深吸引，因为那太可怕了。

I just was interested in martial arts, and then I was fascinated by this idea of bettering myself through competition because it was so scary.

突然间，我就周围都是像杀手这样的人。

And then all of a sudden, I'm around like hitmen.

我认识一个为怀蒂·布尔格做事的杀手，我曾经教过他。

I knew one guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulger, and he I would train him.

我教这个人武术，而他是个刺客。

I would teach this guy how to do martial arts, and he was an assassin.

是的。

Yeah.

这太惊人了。

That's amazing.

这非常奇怪。

It was very strange.

我认识不少有组织犯罪分子，主要是爱尔兰黑帮的人。

I knew a bunch of organized crime figures for mostly with the Irish mob.

很多人来训练，尤其是因为他们认识一些我们认识的其他人，比如我的一个朋友，他是职业拳击手，住在南波士顿。

They a lot of those guys came and trained, especially because they they knew some other guys that we knew that were a couple of one of my friends who was a bock, who's a professional boxer and he lived in South Boston.

他和这些家伙关系非常密切。

He was very tight with a lot of these guys.

所以有些家伙来和我们一起训练，这对我来说是一种非常奇怪的经历。

So some of these guys came to train with us and it was very weird exposure for me.

我以前从未接触过这类人。

I've never been around any of that.

我家里没有人进过监狱。

I never had anyone in my family that went to jail.

没有人是，你知道的，没有人是罪犯。

No one was a, you know, no one was a criminal.

没有人是吸毒者。

No one was a drug addict.

没什么特别疯狂的事情。

No there's nothing nothing really crazy.

是的

Yeah.

然后突然间，我周围都是这些人，他们最终要么进了监狱，要么曾经坐过牢。

And then all of sudden, was around a lot of these people that either went to jail eventually or had been in jail.

是的

Yeah.

因为我觉得，人们总会问：如果你不喜欢现在的监狱系统，或者认为人们不应当被终身监禁，那你就是对犯罪太软弱了，你显然就是个‘小可怜’。

Because it's I think there's that question of, you know, people say, well, if you if you don't like the the prison system the way it is or if you don't think people should get locked up forever, then, you know, you're just soft on crime and and, you know, obviously, you know, you're some kind of snowflake.

但显然，监狱是有其作用的。

And but clearly, there's a role for prison.

监禁也有其作用。

There's a role for jail.

问题在于，我们是否应该把人送进那些只会进一步伤害他们、再次给他们造成创伤的机构。

The question is whether we should be putting people into institutions that just further damage them, further retraumatize them.

对。

Right.

你只是让他们变得更加顽固。

You're just making them hardened.

如果他们出狱的话，无论何时出狱，他们都会变成更糟糕的罪犯。

They're they're gonna be worse criminals if they get out, if and when they get

出狱。

out.

是的。

Yeah.

而且完全没有重视改造。

And there's no emphasis on rehabilitation.

这就是问题所在。

So that's the thing.

如果你把他们释放回街头，那对社会其他人的影响呢？

It's like if you're releasing them back into the street, like, are you doing to the rest of the society?

如果你把一个犯下暴力罪行的人关进监狱，让他们变得更糟，然后再释放出去。

If you're taking a person who's committed a violent crime, making them way worse in jail and then releasing them.

这就像一颗慢定时炸弹，你知道的。

This is like a slow bomb, you know.

这是一种缓慢释放的炸弹。

It's slow release bomb.

而且他们也没有其他选择，因为没人愿意雇佣前科犯，尤其是那些因严重伤害罪入狱的人。

And then also they have no options because no one wants to hire an ex convict, especially someone who went to jail for like aggravated assault or something like that.

所以对这些人来说非常困难，对社会来说做决定也极其困难。

So it's it's very, very difficult for these people and very, very difficult for society to make a a decision.

你知道的。

You know?

你想快速解决某个问题。

You wanna make a quick fix of something.

你想保护人们。

You wanna protect people.

那就把他们一直关在监狱里。

Just keep them in jail.

把所有人都关进监狱。

Keep everybody in jail.

但根本没有人关注如何帮助那些来自完全破碎的童年、破碎的家庭、家庭暴力、药物成瘾和各种混乱环境的人，他们早已习以为常身边的暴力犯罪。

But there's zero emphasis on how to take a person from a completely broken childhood, broken home, violence, drug addiction in the home, all the chaos, complete accustomed completely being accustomed to violent crime because it's all around you.

这就在你的社区里。

It's in your neighborhood.

是的。

Sure.

模仿你周围的环境。

Imitate your atmosphere.

那我们对这些人该怎么办？

And then what do we do with these people?

根本没有人重视这个问题。

You know, there's no emphasis whatsoever on it.

只是把他们当作人肉电池来赚钱，这太邪恶了。

It's just using them as human batteries to generate money, and that's evil.

这才是真正疯狂的地方。

That's what's really crazy.

这就是人们扭曲了监禁本应是某种康复或改造理念的地方。

It's and this is where people have subverted this idea of incarceration being some sort of a rehabilitation or correction.

对吧？

Like, right?

他们管这些地方叫改造设施。

They call them correctional facilities.

你根本没在改造任何东西。

You're not correcting anything.

你只是在赚钱。

You're just making money.

你只是从人身上赚钱，还利用了没人愿意关注这一点的事实，因为社会普遍认为那些罪犯、犯下暴力罪行的人活该如此。

You're just making money off of people, and you're taking advantage of the fact that no one wants to pay attention to it because society generally looks at people that are criminals and have committed violent crimes as like, oh, well, fuck them.

把他们推开。

Push them aside.

你看。

And look.

有些人我同意。

There's some people that I agree.

是的。

Yeah.

去他们的。

Fuck them.

如果有那些杀了很多人、强奸了很多人，还不断抢劫、闯入他人住宅或实施暴力的人。

If there's people that have, you know, killed a bunch of people and raped a bunch of people and they're constantly robbing people and breaking their houses or violent.

对。

Yeah.

去那些人吧。

Fuck those people.

去那些人吧。

Fuck those people.

但监狱里的人只有一小部分是这样的。

But that's a small percentage of what's in jail.

大部分是非暴力的毒品犯罪者，这才是真正奇怪的地方。

A large percentage is nonviolent drug offenders, and that's where it gets really weird.

这就像是，有人在决定，你可以拥有我们认可的毒品。

It's like so a person is deciding, you can have the drugs that we sanction.

你可以拥有我们征税的毒品。

You can have the drugs that we tax.

你可以拥有这些毒品。

You can have these drugs.

你可以拥有这些处方药。

You can have these prescription drugs.

你可以从酒类商店购买这种我们称之为酒精的药物，这显然是一种毒品。

You could have this drug that you buy in the liquor store that we call alcohol, which is clearly a drug.

你可以买香烟。

You could buy your cigarettes.

你还可以买你的咖啡。

You could buy your coffee.

你可以得到所有这些我们喜欢的药物。

You could get all these drugs that we'd like.

阿得拉？

Adderall?

你需要阿得拉。

You need Adderall.

安德鲁，我觉得你知道，有点多动症。

Andrew, I think you know it a little ADHD.

也许你可以用点该死的兴奋剂，我们会卖给你这种兴奋剂，还会对它征税。

Maybe you can use some fucking speed, and we'll sell you that speed, and we'll tax that speed.

其他任何东西，我们都会把你关进笼子，因为你没遵守我们的规则。

Anything else, we'll put you in a cage because you're not following our rules.

一个成年人告诉另一个成年人他们能或不能怎样支配自己的生活，这到底算什么责任？

And it's like a grown adult telling another grown adult what they can or can't do with their life is responsible for what?

百分之五十被关在笼子里的人？

Fifty percent of the people that are in cages?

这有点疯狂。

That's kind of crazy.

春假快到了。

It's almost time for spring break.

所以你可能要去海滩，或者带孩子自驾游，又或者只是给自己多留点时间。

So maybe you're headed to the beach or maybe you're taking the kids on a road trip or maybe you're just taking some extra time for yourself.

无论你做什么，你都值得休息和重新开始，AG1可以帮助你。

No matter what, you deserve a break and a reset, and AG1 can help.

AG1是你的每日健康饮品。

AG1 is your daily health drink.

一勺就融合了复合维生素、益生元和益生菌、超级食物和抗氧化剂，有助于支持健康的免疫系统和消化功能。

Just one scoop combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods, and antioxidants to help support a healthy immune system and digestion.

而且它非常便于携带，即使你没有固定作息，也能轻松融入你的日常生活。

Plus, it travels really well, you can start working it into your routine even when you don't have a routine.

只需在行李里放几包旅行装，就能享受愉快的飞行。

Just slip a few travel packs into your luggage and have a nice flight.

我早就一直在谈论AG1了，而且不只是我一个人。

I've talked about AG1 for a long time, and it's not just me.

我知道很多人很喜欢它。

I know a lot of people enjoy it.

它非常简单。

It's very easy.

它非常方便，而你值得好好照顾自己的健康。

It's very convenient, and you deserve to take care of your health.

访问 drinkag1.com/joerogan，在限时优惠期间，首次订阅即可在欢迎礼包中免费获得一瓶Omega-3、维生素D3和K2，以及一份AG1口味试用装。

Visit drinkag1.com/joerogan, and for a limited time, get a bottle of omega three vitamin d three k two and an AG1 flavor sampler for free in your welcome kit with your first subscription.

在 drinkag1.com/joerogan，这份礼包价值111美元。

That's an $111 value at drinkag1.com/joerogan.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很疯狂。

And I Really crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，有一种错觉，认为所有因我们觉得普通人不该被监禁的罪行而入狱的人——比如毒品犯罪或成瘾者——早就已经被释放了。

I mean, there's this kind of illusion that everybody that is in prison for something that we don't think that the average person doesn't think they should be in prison for for many, many, many years, like a drug crime or being an addict, basically, that those people that that all those people have been let out already.

你知道吗？

You know?

那些监狱改革活动人士说，所有因毒品犯罪入狱的人都应该被释放。

That somehow, like, prison activist people have said, well, you know, all the people that are in there for drug crimes should be should be released.

但事实并非如此。

But it's not it's not really true.

你对药物成瘾进行了过度的刑事化。

You have an enormous criminalization of drug addiction.

你已经让人们对生活感到绝望，然后他们转向吸毒，接着你又把他们关进牢笼。

So you're already making people sort of feel hopeless, then they're turning to drugs, and then you're putting them into cages.

比如，阿拉巴马州总检察长史蒂夫·马歇尔就说，我们已经释放了所有非暴力罪犯。

So, like, Steve Marshall, for example, the AG in Alabama says, well, we've already released all of the nonviolent criminals.

对吧？

Right?

所以现在还关在里面的，都是最恶劣的罪犯。

So the only people that are locked in there are the worst of the worst.

但你知道，他们其实——

But, you know, they Well,

这显然不对，仅从你的纪录片带来的销量就能看出来。

that's clearly not true just because of sales from your documentary.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

所以你瞧，他只是因为进入了一栋无人居住的建筑，就被关进了最高安全级别的监狱。

So you have, you know, and he was put into a a a maximum security facility for entering an unoccupied building.

这是因为对暴力概念的界定被扩大了。

That's because there's sort of an inflation of this concept of violence.

在阿拉巴马州，我认为有44种不同的罪行被归类为暴力犯罪，其中包括你和我根本不会认为是暴力的罪行。

So they will in Alabama, I think there are 44 different crimes that are that are considered violent crimes, and they include crimes that you and I would not consider violent.

你知道的吧？

You know?

比如，如果有人在争吵中口头威胁别人——很多人在生气时都会这样——但并没有实际施暴，这也可能被定为暴力犯罪。

So if somebody threatens somebody verbally, like most people do in arguments with, you know, people that they're mad at or whatever, but doesn't assault somebody, that could be considered a violent crime.

如果有人进入一栋建筑，无论有没有偷东西，都可能被认定为暴力犯罪。

If somebody enters a a building, whether they steal something or not, that could be considered a violent crime.

所以这使得更容易像你说的那样，我喜欢那个电池的比喻。

And so it makes it easier just to as you say, like, I I like that image of the battery.

我想到的是，就像《黑客帝国》那样，阿拉巴马州要这么做，就得让两万人处于休眠状态，这样才能用他们来劳动。

I I think about it as, like, sometimes like The Matrix that, you know, for Alabama to do what it's doing, it's gotta have 20,000 people in suspended animation because that's how you can use them for labor.

是的。

Yeah.