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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我今天的生活。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
很高兴再次见到你。
Great to see you again.
很高兴见到你，乔。
Great to see you, Joe.
能来这儿我很开心。
Happy to be here.
欢迎你来。
Happy to have you here.
你这次拍的纪录片，主题跟上次你来聊的差不多，都是关于微塑料和我们生活中那些干扰内分泌的化学物质的影响。
So you've got a documentary about the essentially about the same subject that you talked about last time you're here, the impact of microplastics and all these various endocrine disrupting chemicals that we're dealing with.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
给大伙儿讲讲吧。
So tell me about it.
其实最初我只是想拍一部关于塑料的电影。
Well, it started as a movie on plastic.
五年前我在纽约遇到路易斯，他给我拍片的时候，那时候的研究规模可没现在这么大。
And when I met Louis and he filmed me in New York about five years ago also, it wasn't the small study that we have today.
不过我得先退一步说件事，我以前从来没跟你说过，但对我特别重要。
But let me backtrack because I wanna tell you something I never told you but was so important to me.
你还记得我上次来的时候，你问我：你是说环境中的毒素正在威胁人类的生存吗？
So you remember when I was here, you said, Are you saying that toxins in the environment are threatening the survival of the human race?
对。
Right.
那就是我的观点，我坚持这个说法。
And I said, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
没错。
Yes.
真的吗？
Yes?
然后你说了句改变我一生的话。
And then you said something which changed my life.
你说：为什么没人知道这件事？
You said, why don't people know about this?
你还记得吗？
Remember that?
记得。
Yes.
我回家后，一直在想这个问题。
I went home and I thought a lot about that question.
正是这个问题促使我创建了现在的项目——行动科学倡议，我们通过短小有力、成本相对较低的干预措施，提醒人们关注这个问题，并以一种我希望比以往学术圈更广泛传播的方式传递信息。
And that was what led me to create the program that I have now, Action Science Initiative, which is doing short, impactful, relatively cheap interventions to alert people to the problem and communicating this in a way that I'm hoping will reach more people than academia where I was speaking before.
以前我只跟学术圈的同行交流，你知道的，那些在象牙塔里的人，参加各种会议，读同样的论文，但普通大众根本接触不到这些信息。
Because before I talk to you, I talked to my peers in, you know, academia and the ivory tower, you know, at the meetings where they all went at the They read the papers that we all read, but the general public didn't get this.
所以你真的对我影响很大，我必须说声谢谢，你在我生命中起了关键作用。
So you really were I I have to tell you thank you, and you were actually very influential in my life.
能帮上忙，我真的很高兴。
Well, I'm I'm very happy to help.
我第一次听说你的书时，仔细看了内容和主题，简直震惊了。
When I first heard about your book and I started going over the the details of it and the subject matter, I was shocked.
我完全想不到，这种事情不仅发生了，居然还没有大规模的行动来扭转局面，或者至少让大家意识到塑料对我们造成的严重影响。
I I I couldn't imagine that something like this could not just have happened, but there's no large scale effort to reverse course or to change course or to do something about it or at least to make people aware of the impact that plastics are having on us.
我给你讲个我朋友的故事吧。
Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine.
有位叫菲利普·弗兰克林·李的人，是奥斯汀的一位米其林星级主厨，开了一家叫‘Sushi by Scratch’的寿司店，手艺特别棒。
There's a guy named Philip Franklin Lee, who is a, Michelin star chef that, lives in Austin, and, he has, this, amazing sushi restaurant, sushi by scratch, and great chef.
他一直感觉特别疲惫，总是没精神，去检查了激素水平，发现睾酮低得离谱，后来又做了微塑料检测，结果高得吓人。
Anyway, he was experiencing fatigue, like, always tired, got his hormones tested, extremely low testosterone, but then got his microplastics tested, and they were off the charts.
他做了一系列干预措施，想把体内的塑料毒素清理掉，再也不用塑料容器喝水，也不再接触任何塑料制品。
Did a series of interventions to try to clean his body out from that, stopped drinking anything out of plastic, stopped using plastic just by whatever he did.
我不确定他有没有做我最近刚做的血浆置换。
I'm not sure if he did the plasmapheresis thing that I just did recently.
他的睾酮水平升到了1200，完全没有使用任何替代疗法。
His testosterone went up to 1,200 with no testosterone replacement.
什么都没用。
No nothing.
只要在一段时间内减少生活中的微塑料，睾酮水平就会提升。
Just eliminating microplastics from his life over a period of time raises testosterone.
这太棒了，我们也在影视作品中看到类似的情况。
So that's fantastic, and it's what we are seeing in film and so on.
我想提一个小点，微塑料、塑料和塑化剂并不是一回事。
I wanna just make a small point, which is microplastics and plastics and plasticizers are not identical.
对吧？
Right?
明白了。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
微塑料算是比较新出现的问题，因为塑料从1950年就存在了。
So, microplastics are relatively newcomer to the scene because we've had plastics since 1950.
对吧？
Right?
微塑料一直都在，但直到最近才被人们注意到。
Microplastics have been there but not recognized until relatively recently.
实际上，要在我们体内检测出微塑料，比检测塑料添加剂要难得多，那些添加剂是用来赋予塑料各种特性的化学物质。
And actually measuring them in in our bodies is much harder than measuring the plasticizers, which are the chemicals that are put in plastic to give them the various properties that they have.
邻苯二甲酸盐。
Phthalates.
比如邻苯二甲酸盐就是一种。
Phthalates is one.
双酚A是另一种，还有其他的。
Bisphenol A is another and so on.
所以还有其他一些，你知道的。
So there are other you know?
顺便说一下，这个我们待会儿再聊。
And by the way Well, we'll come back to that later.
所以，是的，我们可以测那些化学物质，但要是想测微塑料进入大脑、睾丸，或者女性胎盘里的情况，那可就难多了。
So yes, we can measure those, but measuring microplastics in particularly if we're going to go into your brain or into your testicles, you know, into a woman's placenta, obviously, that's much more difficult.
所以它们不一样，微塑料其实就是那些带着塑化剂一起移动的塑料碎片。
So they're not the same, but the microplastics, what they are is the actual pieces of plastic that carry the plasticizers along with them.
它们就像是搭了顺风车。
So they kind of piggyback on.
所以它们造成的伤害是双重的：既带来了化学毒性，又直接物理性地进入细胞。
So they do double damage because they carry the chemical harms and they also physically enter the cells.
对吧？
Right?
你记得石棉吧，还有矽肺，这些你应该听说过。
So do you remember I'm sure asbestos you know about, you know, and silicosis.
这些都是例子，说明有些颗粒进入人体后，既带来化学伤害，也造成物理伤害，比如发炎之类的。
And these were other examples of particles that went into the body and conveyed both chemical harm and physical harm like inflammation and so on and so forth.
所以它们都不好，但并不完全一样。
So, they're all bad, but they're not identical.
在《塑料排毒》这部影片里，我们研究的并不是微塑料。
And what we studied in the Plastic Detox, which is the film, that was We did not study any microplastics.
我们研究的是增塑剂。
We studied the plasticizers.
你可能还记得，我上回好像跟你说过——不过你干嘛要记得呢？
So you probably remember, think I told you last time Well, why should you remember?
不管怎样，它们是溶于水的。
Anyway, they're water soluble.
你还能想起来吗？
And so they remember that?
你知道的吧？
You know?
它们会进入你的尿液，然后就很容易检测了。
So they go into your urine, and and then they're pretty easy to measure.
所以我把这个给你。
So I'm gonna give this to you.
这是一个检测套件。
This is a kit.
打开看看，我来给你讲。
Open her up, and I'll tell you
好，你来了解一下里面的东西。
what it Okay.
里面有哪些成分。
Learn what's inside.
明白了。
Alright.
看起来你是要往里面小便。
It looks like you pee in that.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
That's right.
继续。
Keep going.
里面还有别的东西？
And there's more stuff in there?
是的。
Yep.
好的。
Okay.
还有东西用来寄回去。
Something to send it back.
对。
Right.
然后这个看起来像是生物危害袋。
And then this looks like biohazard bags.
用来装尿液的。
To put your pee in.
尿液不会害死人。
Pee doesn't kill anybody.
上面还有一个二维码。
And this is it's got a QR code on it.
迈向更健康的生活。
Say hello to a healthier you.
这些方法可以帮助你减少接触有害物质。
So those are ways to find out ways to lower your exposure.
明白了。
Okay.
对的。
Yeah.
我知道很多人是通过纸杯喝咖啡或热饮接触到这些有害化学物质的。
I know a lot of people get these harmful chemicals from drinking coffee, hot liquids out of paper cups?
对。
Yeah.
那些纸杯里含有双酚类等有害化学物质。
From the paper cups that are aligned with, for example, bisphenols.
但咖啡本身在制作时，大多数咖啡机里也含有大量塑料。
But the coffee itself is made in a most coffee makers contain a lot of plastic also.
所以这些有害物质既来自纸杯，也来自咖啡机本身。
So it comes in both the cups and in the the device that's making coffee.
用金属的。
Metal.
干脆用法压壶吧。
And just make a French press.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
在家也这么操作吧。
Do that at home too.
我把我的塑料咖啡机扔了。
I got rid of my plastic
我也是。
Me too.
咖啡机。
Coffee machine.
我也是。
Me too.
我也是。
Me too.
我之前一直在想这事。
I was thinking about it.
我就在想，我干嘛非得把热水倒进这个塑料玩意儿里？
I was like, why am I pouring hot water into this plastic thing?
太好了。
Yay.
这可不太妙。
That can't be good.
对。
Yeah.
味道没那么好。
It doesn't taste as good.
你在进步。
You're learning.
你在进步。
You're learning.
法压壶做的味道本来就更好。
French press tastes better anyway.
我有个建议。
So here's my suggestion.
如果你愿意这么做的话
If you're willing to do this
我愿意这么做。
I am willing to do this.
你确实愿意。
You are.
很好。
Good.
不错。
Cool.
其实不难。
So not hard.
好的。
Okay.
把尿尿到杯子里。
Pee in the cup.
把样本寄过来。
Send it in.
然后是我的同事，杰娜·H，还有她的团队，
Then my Got colleague, Jenna H.
他们会分析样本，不是所有物质都测，主要是双酚类、邻苯二甲酸盐和对羟基苯甲酸酯。
And her team will analyze it for not everything in the world, but the bisphenols, the phthalates, and the parabens.
他们很快还会增加农药的检测，如果能加上那就更好了。
They're going to be adding pesticides soon, and that would be great to have that as well.
如果你愿意进入第二阶段，我这里有一些替换建议，你可以换掉厨房里的某些用品，再扫这个二维码，看看还能减少哪些接触源。
Then, if you want to go to phase two, I can I have some things here that you could swap in your kitchen, and you could go to that QR code and find out other things that you could reduce?
如果你有兴趣，我们可以再寄你一套新的检测包，看看你的体内水平有没有变化。
And then if you wanted to, could send you another kit, and you could see if your levels changed.
好的。
Okay.
你想做吗
You wanna do
哪个？
that?
我很愿意参加。
I would love to do that.
太好了。
Yay.
第二阶段是什么？
What what is phase two?
第二阶段会再寄一套检测盒给你。
A phase two would mail you back another kit.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
你再提供一次尿样，就完成了。
You take your urine again, and that's it.
这样就能看看因为生活方式的改变，你的指标有没有变化。
And so that's to see if it's changed because of lifestyle changes.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Right.
没错。
That's right.
那你就会像干预组中的那些伴侣一样去做。
So you would be doing what the couples in part of what the couples in the intervention did.
参与干预的伴侣们也都是不孕的。
The couples in the intervention also were infertile.
所以我们不会碰你的生育问题，但那些男性确实收集了精液样本。
And so we're not going to touch your fertility question, but they also the men collected sperm.
如果你愿意，我们也可以这么做，不过我觉得你可能现在还不想在网站上谈这个。
And we can do that if you want, but I don't think you may not want to talk about that on your website right now.
这就是我们在干预中所做的事情。
But that's what we did in the intervention.
所以在这项干预中，我们发现这就是干预的实际内容。
So in the intervention, we found this is what the intervention was.
有一家公司叫Fellow，是从加州大学旧金山分校发展出来的。
There's a company called Fellow, which has grown out of UCSF.
现在他们规模已经很大了。
And they're very big now.
我觉得他们数据库里有大约二十万名男性，都做过精液检测，明白吗？
I think they have like 200,000 men in their files who have had their semen tested, Okay?
在他们做精液检测的时候，会被问到：我们以后可以再联系您参与研究吗？
And at the time they have their semen tested, they're asked, Could we recontact you for research?
这个问题很重要。
That's one important question.
他们还会被问：您为什么想做精液检测？
And they're asked, Why did you want your sperm tested?
如果他们回答说，因为自己不孕、亚不孕，或者担心生育能力，就会接着问：您遇到这个问题有多久了？
And if they say, Because we're infertile or subfertile or we're worrying about our fertility, they ask, How long has it been that you've been having this problem with fertility?
如果超过十二个月，那在医学上就属于不孕了，对吧？
And if it's more than twelve months, then they're technically infertile, Right?
所以，如果他们同意后续联系，并且被判定为不孕，就有可能符合这项干预的条件。
So if they said they would agree to be recontacted and they were infertile, they were potentially eligible for this intervention.
你明白吗？
You with me?
明白了。
Got it.
实际上，找到影片中的那些夫妻花了很长时间。
So actually finding the couples that are in the film was a long process.
他们当然得同意被拍摄。
They had to, of course, agree to be filmed.
他们必须符合我们说的那个不太雅观的术语——不明原因的不孕，也就是找不到任何明确病因。
They had to have what we call terrible word, idiopathic infertility, no known causes.
而且他们不能超重。
So they and they couldn't be obese.
他们也不能是吸烟者。
They couldn't be smokers.
他们不能有能解释不孕原因的医学诊断。
They couldn't have a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis that explains.
我们不希望原因不明。
We don't want it to be unexplained.
明白了。
Got it.
清楚了吗？
Okay?
最后我们筛选出了六对夫妇。
So sort of we winnowed down to what was six couples.
其中有一对因为个人原因退出了。
One of them dropped out for personal reasons.
这个我就不细说了。
So I won't go into that.
但这就是我们选出这六对夫妇的方法。
But that's how we got those couples.
顺便说一下，他们必须是一对情侣。
They had to be couples, by the way.
而且他们得在接下来的三个月里保持在一起，不能做试管婴儿。
And they had to be staying together for the next three months and not doing IVF.
明白吗？
Okay?
明白了。
Okay.
这就是当时的安排。
So that was the setup.
然后，你要把样本寄给的那家公司，叫Million Marker，他们有个教育项目。
And then the company called Million Marker that you're going to send your P to, they have an education program.
他们主要做的就是检测和健康教育。
That's a lot of what they do, the testing and the education.
于是，这些夫妻都被问到：你今天早上用了什么护肤品？
And so all of those couples, they talked to them and said, Tell me about what you put on your face this morning.
你用什么洗衣液？
Tell me what you washed your clothes with.
你平时用什么清洁台面？——类似的问题问了一大堆，你知道吧？
Tell me what you clean your counters with, and on and on and on like that, right?
他们把这些夫妻的日常习惯都一一记录了下来。
So they took an inventory of what the couples were doing.
然后他们启动了一个教育项目，这方面他们非常在行，而且已经做了很久了。
And then they started this educational program, which they're very good at and have been doing for a while.
每周他们会跟这些夫妻聊一次。
Once a week, they talk to them.
最近怎么样？
So how's it going?
你有没有改掉那个习惯？
Have you changed this?
你现在用的是什么？
What are you using now?
诸如此类的事情。
And so on.
所以这并不是一次性的做法。
So it was not just a one time thing.
如果你这么做，效果也不会持久。
And if you were doing this, it would be short.
你可以试试用这些产品。
You know, just use these things maybe.
但与此同时，我们还给他们发了精液采集套件。
But along with that, we sent them the fellow kits to collect their semen.
明白了。
Okay.
所以我们有了开始、中间和结尾。
So we have beginning, middle, and end.
整整三个月。
It was three months.
所以是开始、六周、十二周。
So beginning, six weeks, twelve weeks.
你知道为什么是三个月吗？
And you know why three months?
为什么？
Why?
生成一批精子需要七十天。
Takes seventy days to make a sperm.
所以我们希望在干预期间完成一轮更新。
So we wanted to have turnover within the course of the intervention.
是的。
Yeah.
我们寄给他们一个采集套件，让他们在家收集精液，这样对男性来说更方便，不用专门跑实验室去做。
So we sent them a kit, and they collected their semen at home, which is nice for guys because you don't have to go into lab and do it there.
在家做要好得多，对吧？
It's much better at home, right?
他们寄回来之后，居然还能准确测出所有指标，即使是在邮寄的情况下。
And they sent it in, and they figured out how to get all the parameters right even though it's mailed.
于是，这些夫妇就这么做了。
And, so the couples did that.
随着时间推移，我们掌握了他们体内化学物质的水平、精液质量，以及他们生活中的各种改变——因为我们完整记录了所有变化。
So we had, over time, levels in their body of the chemicals, semen quality, what they were doing, what they changed in their life because we have this record of everything that changed.
最后，我们看出了哪些夫妇成功怀孕了。
And then finally, we saw who got pregnant.
我希望你的听众能去看看《塑料排毒》这部电影。
And I hope your listeners will watch The Plastic Detox.
这部电影很多人都特别喜欢，看后都觉得特别触动人心。
It's a movie that a lot of people love and and found, you know, really moving.
你真的应该去看看。
And you should watch it.
我能问你个关于咖啡的问题吗？
Can I ask you about the coffee question?
当你去像星巴克这样的地方——我不是专门挑他们说，但确实如此——
When you go to a place like, let's just say Starbucks, not to single them out, but Yeah.
他们用的咖啡机是塑料做的吗？
Are they using plastic with their coffee machines?
咖啡机本身是不是含有塑料部件？
Are their coffee machines made with plastic?
我真不知道其他地方的情况，除了我自家厨房。
I I don't I don't know about any particular place except my kitchen.
我只是想问个问题。
I was just would have a question
我猜他们用的应该是塑料材质。
I suspect that they are using plastic.
对。
Right.
所以如果人们每天早上上班路上经常在这样的地方停下来买咖啡，他们可能会自带塑料杯，抱歉，我是说——
So if people stop at a place like that on a regular basis on their way to work in the morning to get coffee, and they use they bring their own plastic or excuse me.
他们自带不锈钢保温杯或马克杯，这样能减少一部分使用量，但也许——
They they bring their own stainless steel thermos or mug that would eliminate some of it, but perhaps
一个来源。
One source.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但也许他们其实是从咖啡机本身接触到塑料的。
But perhaps they're getting it actually from the coffee machine itself.
因为我看到当——
Because I see when
他们把杯子滑过去，没错。
they slide those Yes.
对。
Yes.
你看看那些大型工业机器，它们把那种滤芯推进去的时候，滤芯都是塑料的。
When you see those big industrial machines and they slide those filters in, those filters are plastic.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
它们里面很可能含有双酚A。
Well, they're they're probably they probably have bisphenol in them.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
那是个塑料托盘。
It's a plastic tray.
看起来好像是这样。
It seem it seems like.
我不确定。
I don't know.
是的。
Yeah.
但塑料托盘里还有纸滤芯。
But then there's paper filter in the plastic tray.
没错。
And Right.
所以不管怎样，你都会接触到。
So you're getting it no matter what.
如果他们用那种胶囊，嗯。
And if they use those pods Uh-huh.
你知道的，对。
You know Yeah.
在家里的时候。
At home.
布鲁诺，我们电影里的一位朋友，人特别好，他简直对他的咖啡机和咖啡胶囊上瘾了。
Bruno, one of our guys in the film, wonderful guy, he he was kind of addicted to his coffee machine, his pods.
那些胶囊。
The pods.
我们就跟布鲁诺说：布鲁诺，我们希望你别再用这些胶囊了。
And we said, Bruno, we want you to stop using those pods.
不行。
No.
我不想停用它们。
I don't wanna stop using them.
但他还是停了。
But he did.
他确实停了，而且他们现在有了两个孩子。
He did, and they've had two babies.
是的。
Yeah.
我不是说这就是原因，但很可能是一个因素。
Now I'm not not saying that's the reason, but, you know, it's a contribution probably.
确实存在一个问题。
Well, there is certainly an issue.
就像我和朋友菲利普说的，这让他精子数量和睾酮水平发生了巨大变化。
Like I said with my friend, Philip, that it made a radical difference in his sperm count and his testosterone levels.
所以，很多美国人面临生育问题，很可能也是类似情况。
And so this is probably the case with so many Americans in this country that are dealing with infertility issues.
其中很大一部分原因可能是这些增塑剂。
A big part of it is probably these plasticizers.
你是说这个吗？
Is that how you Yeah.
听到了吗？
Heard them?
是的
Yeah.
塑化剂，还有这些随处可见的内分泌干扰化学物质，在现代生活中无处不在。
Plasticizers, all these various chemicals that are endocrine disruptors that are ubiquitous in the modern world.
对。
Yes.
真是令人遗憾。
Unfortunately.
这太离谱了。
It's crazy.
对了，别光说女性，让我给你看个东西。
By the way, not the women let me show you something.
上次我们没怎么聊女性这方面。
We didn't talk about the women last time very much.
对吧？
Right?
有一点。
A little bit.
我们提过。
We did.
很少。
Little.
是的。
Yeah.
我想我们确实提到过。
We we we I think we did.
所以女性也需要睾酮，对。
So the women need testosterone too Mhmm.
比如性欲、性兴奋，还有肌肉方面。
You know, for sexual arousal and libido and so on and muscle.
在我们对未来家庭的研究中，也许可以考虑一下。
And in our study, study for future families, think, or maybe yeah.
我们收集了他们的尿样。
Asked we got the urine.
我们看了他们尿液中邻苯二甲酸盐的含量。
We saw what they you know, how much phthalates were in their urine.
然后我们问了他们一些关于性生活的问题。
And then we asked them some questions about their sexual experience.
比如他们对性生活的满意度和频率如何。
So how satisfied were they with their sexual life and frequency?
那些尿液中邻苯二甲酸盐含量较高的女性，满意度更低，频率也更少。
And the women who had higher levels of phthalates were had less satisfaction and lower frequency.
所以这不只是男人的问题。
So it's not just the men.
这完全说得通。
Completely makes sense.
每个人都需要睾酮。
Everyone needs testosterone.
是的
Yeah.
我妻子的一个朋友开始用睾酮了。
My wife's friend got on testosterone.
她大概是五十岁左右。
She's I guess she's about 50.
她是因为医生给她开了某种低剂量的药膏，结果她反应特别大，说感觉自己像男人一样欲火中烧。
She got on testosterone because of her her doctor put her on some low level of cream or something like that, and her her response was like, it makes me horny like a bloke.
她是英国人。
She's English.
我
I
觉得她说得特别有意思
thought that was a very funny thing
她居然这么形容。
that she said it that way.
她觉得这是好事吗？
Did she think that was a good thing?
是的。
Yeah.
她挺享受的。
She enjoyed it.
是的。
Yeah.
据说如此。
Apparently.
是的。
Yeah.
据称如此。
Allegedly.
我并没有直接跟她聊过。
I didn't speak to her directly.
没错。
Right.
但我觉得她就是这个意思。
But I think that's what she was saying.
没错。
Right.
哎呀，真没想到。
Like, woah.
没错。
Right.
你懂的。
You know?
就是，太意外了。
Just woah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们那期节目里最让我震惊的是，这件事在主流媒体上几乎没人讨论。
Well, I mean, it's the the thing that came out of your the episode that we did that shocked me the most is how little this is discussed in the mainstream.
直到你提到这个话题，作为嘉宾上节目，我开始去查资料，我才第一次了解到这些。
And I had not known until you brought it up, until you became a a guest on the show, until I started researching it.
我简直不敢相信。
I was stunned.
我完全没想到，这种事情居然这么普遍。
I I couldn't believe that this was something that was so common.
经常有人提到，很多夫妻想生孩子却怀不上，只能靠试管婴儿，现在这种情况比以往任何时候都多。
And so so one of the things that comes up all the time is infertility with couples that are trying and they're using IVF, and it's more common now than ever before.
关于为什么会这样，人们提出了各种各样的原因。
And there's been a lot of things that people a lot of factors that people have attributed to that reason.
其中很多是因为年纪大了，三十多岁的时候先把事业放一放。
A lot of them being older people that are you know, they put their careers aside in their thirties.
现在觉得是时候要孩子了。
They decided now it's time to have kids.
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他们担心已经太晚了。
They're worried that it's too late.
但听你这么一说，我觉得这只是问题的一部分，而且还不是主要部分。
But listening to you talk about it, it seems like that's only one part of the the issue and not the big part.
真正主要的原因是我们正在被毒害，而这一切源于我们现代生活的环境——生活中处处离不开塑料。
The big part seems to be that we're being poisoned, and we're doing it by virtue of our modern world that we live in where so much of your life relies on plastic.
对那些习惯固定的人来说，改变真的很难。
And it's very difficult for people that are so set in their ways.
他们有自己的一套生活方式。
They have routines.
他们根本不知道，到底该怎么做才能把这些东西从生活中彻底去掉。
They don't really understand, like, what what can I do to eliminate this stuff from my life?
能聊一聊、意识到这些问题确实有影响，这已经很好了，但更重要的是，得让大家明白，具体该采取哪些行动才能真正摆脱这些有害物质。
Just having the conversation and understanding that these things are having an impact is great, but the steps that people need to take in order to eliminate these things from their life, I think that's what's really important to get out there now.
谢谢你。
I thank you.
你讲得真到位。
You said it really well.
我给大家推荐一个地方。
Let me just give people a place to go.
去 onplasticyourlife.com 就行。
You go to onplasticyourlife.com.
明白吗？
Okay?
对。
Mhmm.
然后就是行动了，你可以去看看家里各个地方
And then there's action, and then you can go to the various places in your home that you can
就一个词：onplasticyourlife。
It's just on plasticyourlife, one word.
On On plastic。
On On plastic.
上 unplasticyourlife.com。
On plasticyourlife.com.
对。
Yeah.
我确认一下我有没有听清楚。
Let me see if I got that.
对。
Yeah.
所以去 unplasticyourlife.com，点行动中心，然后选择保护自己。
So unplasticyourlife.com, go to Action Hub, and then to protect yourself.
这样你会找到很多方法来减少这些接触。
And that'll give you lots of things to do to lower these exposures.
春假快到了。
It's almost time for spring break.
你可能要去海边，或者带孩子自驾游，又或者只是给自己多放点假。
So maybe you're headed to the beach or maybe you're taking the kids on a road trip or maybe you're just taking some extra time for yourself.
不管怎样，你都值得好好休息一下，重新调整状态，AG1 能帮上忙。
No matter what, you deserve a break and a reset, and AG1 can help.
AG1 是你每天喝的健康饮品。
AG1 is your daily health drink.
一勺就能把维生素、益生元、益生菌、超级食物和抗氧化成分全都融合在一起，帮助增强免疫力和改善消化。
Just one scoop combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, super foods, and antioxidants to help support a healthy immune system and digestion.
而且它特别方便携带，就算你平时没固定习惯，也能轻松融入日常生活。
Plus, it travels really well, you can start working it into your routine even when you don't have a routine.
出差时往行李里塞几小包，登机前喝一杯，舒服又安心。
Just slip a few travel packs into your luggage and have a nice flight.
我早就一直在推荐 AG1 了，但不光是我一个人这么说。
I've talked about AG1 for a long time, and it's not just me.
我知道很多人都很喜欢它。
I know a lot of people enjoy it.
用起来特别简单。
It's very easy.
非常方便，你值得好好照顾自己的健康。
It's very convenient, and you deserve to take care of your health.
前往 drinkag1.com/joerogan，限时优惠，首次订阅即可在欢迎礼包中免费获得一瓶欧米伽三、维生素D3和K2，以及一份AG1口味试用装。
Visit drinkag1.com/joerogan, and for a limited time, get a bottle of omega three vitamin d three k two and an AG1 flavor sampler for free in your welcome kit with your first subscription.
这些赠品总价值111美元，详情请访问 drinkag1.com/joerogan。
That's in $111 value at drinkag1.com/joerogan.
不粘锅，是的。
Nonstick cookware Yeah.
那种东西不太一样。
That stuff has different.
真的不一样吗？
Is that different?
对。
Yeah.
使用不粘锅的时候，里面会不会释放干扰内分泌的化学物质？
It was when you have nonstick cookware, does that have any endocrine disrupting chemicals as well?
但不一样的种类。
But different ones.
不一样的种类？
Different ones?
是哪些呢？
Which ones are those?
这些就是所谓的PFAS化学物质。
So those are what's called the PFAS chemicals.
对。
Mhmm.
而且不只是炊具里有。
And it's in actually not just cookware.
任何起到隔绝两种介质作用的东西都有。
It's anything that put puts a barrier between two medium, if you will.
比如雨衣，它能在雨水和你的皮肤之间形成一层屏障，对吧。
Like a rain jacket will put a barrier between the rain and your skin Right.
还有那种防污的屏障，防止污渍渗透。
And also stain resistant barrier with the the stain.
而且这种物质非常普遍。
And it's very, very prevalent.
我的意思是，到处都是，比如衣服里就含有。
I mean, it's all your you know, it's in clothing.
它还存在于
It's in
我看过报道，很多瑜伽裤和类似衣物里都有。
I've read it's in a lot of yoga tights and things along those lines.
没错。
Yes.
运动服里也有。
Workout clothes.
这真是太奇怪了。
That's so crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
你以为自己在健康生活。
You think you're being healthy.
是的。
Yeah.
但你其实正在接触干扰内分泌的化学物质。
And you're exposing yourself to endocrine disrupting chemicals.
还有工作服，有本书提到过。
And uniforms, there's a book.
我本来不该再推荐另一本书的，不过这本书确实不错。
I I I should probably shouldn't recommend another book, but I think it's a good book.
我只能说它叫《为死而染》，d-y-e。
I'll just say it's called to die for, d y e.
嗯，没错。
Uh-huh.
这本书讲的是空乘制服，以及它们带来的危害。因为这些制服经过特殊处理，含有大量PFAS（全氟和多氟烷基物质）。你知道的，它们需要保持清洁，但实际上并不干净。
It's about the flight attendants uniforms and the harms that they do because they're coded they have a lot of PFAS because they, you know, have to keep clean in the and and they've got they're not clean.
对吧？
Right?
因为它们里面含有这种PFAS。
Because they have this PFAS in them.
运动服里也有。
It's in sports uniforms.
你做了很多运动
You you do a lot
各种运动项目。
of sports.
所有的运动服。
All the sports uniforms.
尼龙材质的。
Nylon.
是的。
Yeah.
跟尼龙有关吗？
Is it anything with nylon?
就是这个原因吗？
Is that what it is?
全是尼龙。
All nylon.
但我也不确定。
But I'm not sure.
我不是特别懂服装这方面，不过我可以帮你推荐个专家。
I'm not you know, I could refer you to somebody, but I'm not the clothing expert.
但我清楚这些东西里确实含有这些物质。
But I know that they're in these things.
其中一件让人担心的事是校服。
And one of the things that is kind of scary is school uniforms.
你知道吗，很多孩子都穿校服，而且上面沾满了这些东西。
You know, a lot of kids have school uniforms, and they're loaded with it.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我孩子以前每天都穿校服。
My kids used to wear a uniform every day.
对。
Yeah.
你说的‘致命’，是指棉质衣服里的染料也会释放出来吗？
When you you say to die for, are dyes in cotton clothes also releasing?
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yes.
染料都很危险。
Dyes are dyes are very risky.
我们得回到阿米什人那种生活方式了。
We gotta go back to being Amish.
对。
Yeah.
就在这儿。
Here it is.
小提琴来自
Violin from
哦，太好了。
the Oh, good.
对。
Yeah.
事实上，我们每天穿的衣服和纺织品，从制服、快时尚、户外装备，到近年来随处可见的口罩，几乎没什么监管。
So in fact, there's little or no regulation of clothes or textiles we wear each day from uniforms to fast fashion, outdoor gear, and even the face masks that have become ubiquitous in recent years.
威克尔解释了我们是怎么走到这一步的，这其中的风险有多大，以及我们每个人能为打造一个安全健康的衣橱做些什么。
Wicker explains how we got here, what the stakes are, what all of us can do in the fight for a safe and healthy wardrobe for all.
真没想到。
Wow.
这些内容在电影里都有。
And that's in the film.
电影里确实提到了。
It's discussed in the film.
明白了。
Okay.
稍微提了一点。
A little bit.
不是重点，但有提到
Not the major, but it's
那牛仔裤呢？
So blue jeans?
大概是吧。
Probably.
对，大概吧。
Probably.
我没法具体谈这个。
I can't, you know, speak about it.
有条河，我记得是在中国，那里集中了一大批牛仔裤工厂，哦。
There is a river, I believe it's in China, where a series of blue jean factories exist Oh.
整条河都被染成了蓝色。
Where the entire river is blue.
简直太恶心了。
It's so disgusting.
不是那种清澈漂亮的蓝色，而是……
Like, not blue like beautiful clean water.
像染过色一样。
Blue like dyed.
染料水。
Dyed water.
你看这个，完全是染过的颜色。
Like, dyed look at this.
你看看那个。
Look at that.
哦。
Oh.
那是全世界的牛仔裤之都。
That's the blue jean capital of the world.
哇。
Wow.
那里生产大量牛仔裤，而那条河里流出的都是又臭又脏、令人作呕的蓝色染料水，直接排进海洋，海水也污染了。
That's where they make a lot of blue jeans, and look at the stinky, dirty, disgusting blue dye water that is just that river leaking out into the ocean, which also looks polluted.
你们想要便宜的衣服吗，孩子们？
You want cheap clothes, kids?
这就是结果。
This is what happens.
太离谱了。
It's so crazy.
你看看这些东西。
Like, look at that stuff.
我的意思是，他们到底生产了多少条牛仔裤？
I mean, how many jeans are they making?
还有那些你知道的……
And what are the you know?
这正好让我想指出，这些东西也在影响动物，当然，动物和这片环境都遭殃了。
And this is a good point for me to point out that these things are affecting animals, of course, like the animals and this too.
你瞧这个。
Look at this.
非洲的河流也是。
African rivers as well.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，我们在其他地方也这么干。
Of course, we do it in other places.
要是这事发生在美洲，大家早就注意到了。
If we did it in America, people would be aware.
加拿大呢？
Canada?
加拿大也一样。
Canada too.
我不觉得他们会注意到。
I'm not sure they'd be aware.
你真这么认为？
You don't think so?
我们正在努力。
We're trying.
我们正在努力。
We're trying.
我们的目标是让大家意识到这个问题。
We're trying to get them aware.
我的意思是，这正是我们目前正在做的事。
I mean, that's what we're doing right now.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
我们再回到你之前提到的那些关于男性睾酮水平低、生育力下降、精子数量减少的原因，尤其是在生育问题上，这一点特别突出。
So to go back to that point you raised about reasons that people give for low testosterone or low fertility, low sperm count, And particularly, this comes up for fertility.
现在越来越多的夫妻面临生育困难，对吧？
More couples are you know the fertility is in the toilet, right?
是的
Yes.
对
Yeah.
这话听起来有点怪，不过确实如此。
That's a weird thing to say, but yeah.
没错
Right.
暂且这么讲吧。
For lack of a better Yeah.
以前平均每个家庭有五个孩子，那是1960年的事了，现在韩国只有0.88个。
And, I mean, used to be five children per couple on the average in 1960, and now it's in South Korea, it's like 0.88.
天哪。
Wow.
这最糟糕了。
That's the worst.
你知道吧？
You know?
为什么韩国情况这么糟糕？
Why is South Korea the worst?
我也不清楚。
I don't know.
我是说，整个东亚地区都非常……
I mean, all of East Asia is very,
韩国的生育率真的低得离谱。
very Korea's their replacement numbers are so low
没错。
That's right.
他们现在面临人口彻底崩溃的危险。
That it's they're in danger of complete population collapse.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
日本也在走这条路，还有整个东南亚地区都是这样。
And and Japan is getting there and, you know, all of that Southeast Asia.
每当看到大量文章和社论讨论这个问题，乔，它们都让我特别生气，因为它们确实提到，高龄生育在一定程度上会影响生育率。
And so when there's a lot of articles about this, a lot of editorials, lot of articles, and they make me so, Joe, they make me so mad because they say correctly that having a child at older age will do this to some extent.
不想生孩子，或者生得少，也会在一定程度上造成影响，但它们就是从不提环境毒素的问题。
Not wanting to have children, as many children will do this to some extent, but they never mention toxics.
所以我写过社论说，嘿，朋友们，我们不是地球上唯一的物种，也不是唯一数量在减少的生物。
They just And so I've written editorials saying, hey, guys, we're not alone on this planet and we're not the only species that's declining in number.
如果你看看濒危物种数量下降的趋势，和人类生育率下降的曲线，你会发现它们完全平行。
And then if you look at the curve of the number of species that are declining and the rate of decline of human fertility, they're parallel.
每年大约都下降1%。
It's all about 1% per year.
我们知道，其他那些物种确实暴露在这些毒素中。
And we know they're exposed, these other species.
你之前已经展示过了。
You showed it.
那些水里的鱼，还有周边的动物，都暴露在这些毒素中。
Those fish in that water are exposed and animals on the periphery.
所以，当人们看到生育率下降的数字时，我希望他们能想到，这并不全是个人选择的结果。
So I would love for everybody when they look at these numbers of declining fertility, consider that it's not all choice.
没错。
Right.
动物并不会主动选择晚育或推迟生育。
Animals are not choosing to have their children later or to delay childbearing.
对吧？
Right?
它们有重要的事要做。
They have big careers.
海狸忙着筑坝呢。
Beavers are trying to make dams.
它们哪有时间养孩子。
They don't have time for children.
是的。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
确实如此。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
所以对我来说，这些当然都是合理的解释，但问题不在这儿。
So for for me, you know, it's not there those are good those are explanations for sure.
显而易见，年纪越大，生育能力就越低。
Obviously, when you get older, your fertility is less.
如果你生活忙碌，没时间养孩子，那确实不该生。
Obviously, if you're have a busy life and you don't have time to have children, you shouldn't have children.
但环境毒素才是关键。
But the toxics matter.
这些影响非常大。
They matter a lot.
完全没错。
100%.
是的。
Yeah.
还有动物，问题是不是出在它们接触了被这些化学物质污染的水源？
And the animals, is the issue exposure to water that has these chemicals in it because of pollution?
那这背后的原因到底是什么？
What is is causing it with that?
这些物质确实存在于水中。
Well, it's in the water.
也存在于土壤里。
It's in the soil.
还存在于它们吃的东西中，因为这些化学物会通过植物进入食物链。
It's in the what they eat because it comes in, you know, in the plants.
这些物质会进入植物吗？
It gets into the plants?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，邻苯二甲酸酯，我来分享个小知识。
Do you know that phthalates I'm just this is a little fun fact.
邻苯二甲酸酯被添加在农药里。
Phthalates are put in pesticides.
他们为什么要这么做？
Why would they do that?
邻苯二甲酸酯的一个作用是增强吸收。
Well, one of the things that phthalates do is they increase absorption.
所以它才被用在护手霜里。
That's why they're in hand cream.
对吧？
Right?
你看，你涂护手霜的时候，它会渗进皮肤里，对吧？
You see, you put your hand cream on, it goes in your skin, right?
邻苯二甲酸酯就是帮这个忙的。
Phthalates help that.
你不是希望农药能被植物吸收吗？
You have the pesticide you wanted to go into the plant?
邻苯二甲酸酯也能帮上这个忙。
Phthalates help that.
所以，这些接触无处不在，动物们也一样逃不掉。
So, you know, these exposures are all over the place for and animals are getting them too.
很久以前，我们可能没聊过这个，但有一位了不起的科学家，现在已经不在了。
A long time ago, I don't think we talked about this, but there was a wonderful scientist who's not living anymore.
他叫路·吉莱特。
His name is Lou Gillette.
他住在佛罗里达。
He lived in Florida.
他发现，生活在农药径流严重湖里的短吻鳄，
And he showed that alligators swimming in a lake that had a lot of runoff of pesticides.
你猜怎么着，它们的阴茎都很小。
Get this, their penises were small.
他亲自测量了。
He measured them.
他本人身材高大，是个大块头。
And he was a big he's like he was a big guy.
他只能晚上出去做这事。
He went he had to do it at night.
晚上他跑去把鳄鱼拖上船，我那儿还有当时拍的照片。
He went at night, wrestled them into the boat, and I have pictures of that.
然后把它们带回实验室。
Took them to his lab.
测量了它们的阴茎。
Measured their penises.
测量了它们的生殖器。
Measured their penises.
被放回去的时候，它们肯定特别懵。
They must have been very confused when they got let go.
这人到底喜欢啥啊？
Like, what is this guy kinky with?
他到底有啥特殊癖好？
What is his thing?
你懂的。
You know?
而且它们产的卵也少了。
And they and they had fewer eggs.
对啊。
Right.
所以它们的数量在不断减少。
So they were declining species.
这只是一个很夸张的例子，你知道的，如果你真去比 penis size 和短吻鳄的 penis size。
That's just a very dramatic example of, you know, if you can you put up penis size and alligator penis size?
我只是好奇而已。
I'm just wondering.
至于说
As
Jamie，如果你还没搜过，现在就去搜一下吧。
if you don't already Google that, Jamie.
我来帮你找找
Let me find you
一张图片。
a photo.
我问了 Perplexity 这个问题，它说没错。
I asked our Perplexity of this thing, and it says, yeah.
赞助商 Perplexity 也说对。
Sponsor Perplexity said, yes.
这在野生短吻鳄中其实已经有记录了。
This has actually been documented in wild alligators.
生活在严重污染水域的雄性短吻鳄，平均阴茎更小，还伴有其他与内分泌干扰物相关的生殖问题。
Males in heavily polluted legs have on average smaller penises and other reproductive problems linked to hormone disrupting chemicals.
咱们正在让短吻鳄的阴茎变小，各位。
We are shrinking alligator penises, ladies and gentlemen.
而且不只是短吻鳄的阴茎尺寸在变小。
And not only alligator penis size.
相比生活在清洁湖泊的雄性，它们的阴茎尺寸小了百分之多少。
Percent smaller penis sizes compared to males from a cleaner reference lake.
雄性的睾酮水平低了大约百分之七十。
Males of lower testosterone levels around 70% lower.
激素水平和阴茎发育之间的关系异常，这和清洁湖泊里的短吻鳄完全不同。
Abnormal relationships between hormone levels and penis growth unlike alligators from cleaner lakes.
污染水域的短吻鳄还表现出其他生殖问题：激素模式紊乱、性腺异常、孵化成功率低、各种出生缺陷，全都符合接触内分泌干扰物的特征，比如DDT衍生物、二噁英。
Alligators from polluted lakes also show other reproductive issues, abnormal sex hormone patterns, altered gonads, low hatching success, various birth defects, all consistent with exposure to endocrine disrupting contaminants, EDCs such as DDT derivatives, dildren Mhmm.
多氯联苯，还有相关化合物。
PCBs, and related compounds.
天哪。
Wow.
所以这一切都是污染带来的内分泌干扰物。
So it's all endocrine disruptors from pollution.
真是让人头疼。
Oh, boy.
是的。
Yeah.
你说，这种情况难道还不该引起警觉吗？
I mean, you would think that this would sound the alarm.
而且这也不是什么新鲜事了。
Like And this is not new.
这到底是谁的死？
This is who's dead?
这是老问题了。
This is old work.
而且没人知道。
Oh, and no one knows.
是的。
Yeah.
首先，这根本不是什么热门话题，没人会说：‘今天我最头疼的问题是短吻鳄阴茎的尺寸。’
It's never disco first of all, there's not a lot of people that say, first problem on my list today, alligator penis sizes.
这确实是个真实的问题。
That's a real issue.
你就坐在国会面前。
Like, you're in front of congress.
我们得谈谈。
We gotta talk.
短吻鳄阴茎的尺寸在变小。
Alligator penis sizes are shrinking.
他们会让你立刻被赶出
They'd kick you out of
那栋大楼。
the building.
他，路·吉莱特，去国会发表过演讲。
He, Lou Gillette, went to congress, and he gave a talk.
对的。
Mhmm.
他说，房间里每个男人都比他祖父那代人逊色一半。
And he said, every man in this room is half the man his grandfather was.
指的是睾酮水平。
As far as testosterone levels.
对吧？
Right?
至于阴茎，他其实没去测量过。
And penis well, he didn't measure their penis.
爷爷那代人本来该做到的
Did grandpa should making this
这一点，你
point, you
知道，关于生育和
know, and fertility and
所有这些。
all this.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这完全说得通。
Well, I mean, it completely makes sense.
但让人不解的是，居然没人重视这个问题。
But what doesn't make sense is how little attention that's being paid.
你可能会觉得，在一个如此冷漠的社会里，美国正面临人口崩溃的危机。
You would think that in a society that is mean, America is also facing a potential population collapse.
人们根本没想过这个问题，但我们的生育率
People don't think about that, but our reproduction numbers
是的。
Mhmm.
确实低了不少。
Were not yeah.
已经远低于维持人口稳定所需的水平。
They're they're down quite a bit, and they're not at the level that we need in order to keep our population.
正常的人口结构应该是这样的。
It's the, you know, the normal shape of the population is like this.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Mhmm.
所以上面人很少，下面人非常多。
So this is up here, not very many people, and down here, lots and lots of people.
这是按年龄划分的，年纪大的在上，年轻的在下。
And this is terms of age, older, younger the bottom.
就是这样。
This.
对。
Right.
现在很多人活得更久了，但下面这部分人却很少。
Lots of people are living longer, but few are down here.
这意味着下面的人要养活上面的人。
And then what that means is the ones down here are supposed to support the ones up here.
但人数根本不够。
But there's not enough of them.
但人数根本不够。
But not enough of them.
没错。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是一个重大的社会问题。
So it's a huge societal problem.
真让人困惑，居然这么少人意识到这一点。
Well, it's just so confusing how few people are even aware of this.
我们刚才聊到，没想到上一次做播客已经五年了，真是挺不可思议的。
We were talking I didn't realize it had been five years since our last podcast, which is pretty crazy.
但在这五年里，你几乎听不到人提起这事。
But in that five years, you barely hear about it.
偶尔才会有人提到。
It's occasional.
人们偶尔会讨论某些他们觉得有害的化学物质。
People bring up certain chemicals they think are bad.
哦，别用这个。
Oh, avoid this.
保罗·萨拉迪诺指出，你从咖啡店拿的纸杯，如果把外层纸去掉，里面其实就是一层塑料膜，你喝咖啡用的其实是这个。
Paul Saladino was the one that showed that the paper cups that you get from a coffee shop, that if you take that paper away, what you have is essentially this plastic membrane, and that's what you're drinking your coffee out of.
你根本不是在用纸杯喝咖啡，这些东西对身体有多糟糕，大家根本不在乎。
You're not drinking your your coffee out of paper and how terrible these things are for you.
但就连这一点，人们也直接无视。
But even that, it's like people just dismiss it.
星巴克门口的队伍永远都一样长。
The line around Starbucks is always the same.
总有人排着队去买咖啡。
There's always people going to get their coffee.
他们从不觉得有什么不对，就这么默默摄入这些损害健康、消耗精力、影响脑力的化学物质。
They don't think anything of it, and they're just consuming these chemicals that mess up your health, mess up your vitality, your your energy levels, everything, brain fog.
但谁
But who's
这责任该归谁呢？
who's who's responsibility is it?
你知道的。
You know?
要说责任，我觉得是我们大家的。
Well, to talk about it, I think it's ours.
这跟你我都有关，我们得把这事儿传开，让更多人来讨论。
It's certainly yours and mine, and well, we'll spread this word and more people discuss it.
我觉得更多人需要意识到，这直接关系到你自己的健康。
And I think more people need to be aware that this directly impacts you.
这可不是将来才发生的事。
Like, this is not, like, in the future.
我不能假装没这回事。
I don't have to think about it.
等我死了，也就管不着了。
I'll be dead.
不是的。
No.
它直接影响你的健康、你的精力和你作为活生生的人此刻的活力。
It's it directly impacts your health, your energy levels, your vitality right now as a living human being listening to this show.
所以再补充一点，它影响的是人类，不是你个人。
So just to add to that how it affects you, not you.
人类。
Humans.
也许你的水平更低一些。
Maybe your levels are lower.
我不确定，但我们很快就会知道。
I don't know, but we'll find out.
但无论是男性还是女性，平均生育能力都在下降，这都有研究支持。
But both men and women who have lower fertility on average, these are studies.
已经大约有四五项研究证实了这一点。
There have been about four or five studies that have shown this.
男性的生育能力和精子数量下降，寿命也会更短。
Lower fertility and sperm count on the male side die younger.
活得更短。
Die younger.
明白吗？
Okay?
这应该引起每个人的重视。
This is should be of concern to everybody.
是的。
Yeah.
你的预期寿命也会受到影响。
Your life expectancy is yeah.
你的活力会降低。
You have less vitality.
你的精力也会减少。
You have less energy,
生命活力下降会影响你的精子、精力和睾酮水平，这其实是整个身体在亮红灯，说明很多事情都在恶化。
less life affect your sperm, your vitality, your testosterone are also affecting other it's a it's a canary in the coal mine, if you will, of lots of things that are going south.
没错。
Right.
与此同时。
At the same time.
这完全说得通。
Which completely makes sense.
就拿我朋友菲利普的例子来说，他当时经历的那些疲劳和各种问题。
And as the case of my friend Philip, all this fatigue, all these issues that he was experiencing.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
从来都不是只有一方面的问题。
It's not just one never just one thing.
没错。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
不过，这种话题居然这么少见，确实让人挺不安的。
It's a it is quite disturbing how uncommon these discussions are, though.
这才最让人觉得不可思议。
That's what's crazy.
你懂的吧？
You know?
这本该是一个非常重要的因素。
That this is a this should be a huge factor.
我的意思是，我们总是对很多事特别担心，比如喝酒。
I mean, we get concerned with so many oh, there's people concerned with alcohol consumption.
这确实是个大问题，而且已经造成了影响。
It's a big thing, like and that has had an impact.
如今的孩子，或者该说年轻成年人，喝酒的数量比过去少多了。
Children today or young adults, I should say, today are consuming much less alcohol than people in the past.
吸烟大家都知道，非常危险。
Cigarette smoking, we're aware, very dangerous.
现在吸烟的人比以前少了很多。
Much less cigarette smoking than in the past.
这些内分泌干扰物的摄入量，跟五年前我们讨论时几乎没什么变化。
The consumption of these endocrine disrupting chemicals is essentially the same as when we talked five years ago.
我想再回过头来谈谈我之前问的那个问题：这到底该由谁负责？
So I wanna go back to this question I asked is whose responsibility?
我觉得，你和我关心，还有你的听众关心，固然很好，但其实这不应该是我们的责任，毕竟食品药品监督管理局管的就是药品。
So I don't think it's I mean, it's great for you and I to be concerned and for your listeners to be concerned, but in fact, it shouldn't be our responsibility because the you know, the drug FDA does drugs.
对吧？
Right?
他们对药品的安全性有相当不错的管控。
They have pretty good control of, you know, safety of drugs.
还不错。
Pretty good.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我们可以聊聊这个。
We can talk about that.
但跟我们日常用品里的化学物质相比，情况好多了，因为
But compared to chemicals in our daily products, the products we use every day, it's fantastic because
没错。
Right.
监管机构并没有尽到责任。
The regulatory agencies are not doing the job.
没错。
Right.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以这一切都暴露出来了，因为他们根本没尽到责任。
And so that's why it's all out there because they're not doing the job.
顺便说一下，在欧洲情况要好得多。
Here, in Europe, it's much better, by the way.
是吗？
Is it?
是的。
Yeah.
但这可不妙，因为他们会赶超我们。
Well, that's bad because they're gonna beat us.
他们会繁殖得更快。
They'll outreproduce us.
我们就会被淘汰。
We'll go away.
他们会取而代之。
They'll take over.
美国就没了。
No more America.
我们得让民众愤怒起来。
We have to get people angry
对。
Yes.
得施加压力才行。有一项法案叫《有毒物质控制法》，本该做这些事的。
Enough to put pressure on There's a bill, the Toxic Substances Control Act, which should be doing a lot of this.
我觉得它马上就要修订了。
And I think it's coming up for revision.
也许大家能关注一下，去了解一下，想想政府本该做这些事。
Maybe people can pay attention to that and read about it and think, Government should be doing this.
这不该是我们该做的事。
It's not our job.
我们没必要操心裤子上有什么、这有什么、那有什么。
It's not our job to worry about what's in our pants and what's in our this and our this and our this.
没错。
Right.
你刚才问的是牛仔布这些材料里到底有什么，对吧？
You were asking what kind what's in, you know, denim and so on.
我们真得去研究这些吗？
Should we have to read up on that?
牛仔裤和衣服的染料里，有没有不有毒的？
Is there are there dyes for jeans and clothes that are not toxic?
有的。
Yes.
但我之前说了，这不属于我的专业范围。
But as I said, this is not my area.
我明白。
I understand.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你希望在衣物上标注一些信息，我可以帮你提供名字。
You gotta get I can give your name if you want kids something on clothing and, you know, on this.
对。
Yeah.
我很乐意帮忙。
I'd be happy to.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但当时我拍这部电影时，这方面的信息对我来说还是新的，很遗憾没去收集相关数据。
But just because it was relatively new to my consciousness when I was, you know, doing the film and before that, didn't collect data on that, unfortunately.
也许我们该再做一项研究。
You know, maybe we should do another study.
这让我想起来，还有很多工作等着去做。
Which reminds me, there is just like so much work to be done.
就我的项目而言，我想做的干预措施太多了。
And for my program, there's so many interventions I want to do.
我们之前做了一个，效果非常好，现在又在开展另一个，还有一个在计划中。
We did this one with great success, and now we're doing another one and we have another one.
但如果有人愿意帮忙，要知道，这全是私人资助的。
But if anybody wants to help, you know, with this, it's all privately funded.
政府是不会给这笔钱的。
The government is not gonna fund this.
没错。
Right.
真是遗憾。
Unfortunately.
确实遗憾。
Unfortunately.
所以啊，要是有人来找你，问怎么帮忙，你随时告诉我。
So, you know, let me know if anybody comes to you and says, how can we help and all that.
我相信肯定会有人主动联系的。
Well, I'm sure somebody will reach out.
对，肯定会的。
Yeah.
通常都会有人来。
They usually do.
我觉得，针对这种情况，大家的反应可能是：现在有太多成熟行业都离不开这些化合物、化学物质，尤其是那些内分泌干扰物。
The the thing that I would imagine would be the response to something like this was that there are so many industries that are established already that require the use of all these compounds, all these chemicals, all these endocrine disrupting chemicals.
这些东西简直无处不在。
And it is it's just everywhere.
到处都是，方方面面都离不开。
It is everywhere and everything.
塑料被用在了无数种产品的生产过程中。
They use plastic in the production of so many different things.
这些物质正在渗入我们的食物里。
These things are leaching into our food.
它们也在渗入我们的衣物中。
They're leaching into our clothes.
它们还渗入了我们日常使用的各种产品，让这些化学物质进入我们的身体。
They're leaching into all these various products that we use that contribute to these chemicals entering into our body.
这些化学物质会干扰人体，你应该知道草甘膦吧。
Disrupting that so, like, you'd you're aware of glyphosate, I'm sure.
他们原本想在工业化农业中淘汰草甘膦。
They were trying to eliminate glyphosate from the industrial agriculture.
那可太难了。
Good luck.
没错。
Exactly.
总统后来签了行政令阻止了这项措施，因为全国90%以上的粮食作物——小麦、玉米这些——都依赖草甘膦来生产。
Well, the president passed an executive order blocking it because some enormous percent, 90 something percent of all of our food, when in terms of wheat, corn, all the agriculture in this country relies on glyphosate for production.
所以我们竟然觉得必须用毒药才能生产食物，这简直太荒谬了，尤其是考虑到其他国家不用草甘膦，照样能养活自己的人民。
And so the the idea is we need poison so that we can make food, which is so crazy, especially when you consider the fact that all these other countries don't use glyphosate and feed their population.
那他们到底是怎么做到的呢？
So how are they doing it?
那我们该怎么做
And what do we need to
才能重回正轨呢？
do to to get back on that track?
我之前请RFK Jr.来讨论过这事，他讲起这个事时特别沮丧，说总统刚签了行政令阻止了相关行动，而他之前一直努力想彻底淘汰草甘膦——这事儿我们在之前的会面里也聊过。
And, you know, I had RFK junior in here to discuss it, and he was very crestfallen when he was explaining that there was an executive order passed and that, you know, he was working very hard to try to eliminate glyphosate in something that he discussed in, you know, previous meetings that he and I had.
这一直是他最关心的问题之一。
That was one of his primary concerns.
草甘膦是有毒的。
Glyphosate is toxic.
太糟糕了。
It's terrible.
这对身体简直太糟糕了，可农业和工业种植中却到处都在用，确实如此。
It's just completely awful for your body, yet the use of it is ubiquitous in agriculture, industrial ag Yeah.
农业。
Agriculture.
他一直在努力想彻底禁用它，结果政府却出台了这项行政令，因为在他们看来，确实如此。
And he was trying very hard to try to eliminate it, and then the government passes this executive order because in their estimation yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
压力。
Pressure.
对，就是压力。
Ex yeah.
这正是我担心的。
And this is what I worry about with.
是的。
Yeah.
的
Of
我不点名了，但有很多流行的服装品牌，人们穿的那些所谓健身服，其实根本不是真的健身装备。
mention any names, but there's a lot of these popular clothing brands that people wear that are, you know, fitness.
我身体很健康。
I'm healthy.
我穿的是健身服。
I'm fitness wear.
你身上穿的这些所谓健身服，其实正在把化学物质渗入你的身体，严重损害健康，这简直太荒谬了。
And these fitness wear that you're these clothings that you're wearing are leaching these chemicals into your body that are screwing up your health, which is so crazy.
对吧？
Right?
但我不想说它有多完美，它确实反映了我们现代生活的荒唐程度。
But it's so I don't wanna say it's perfect, but it it sort of encapsulates how screwed up our modern life is.
没错。
Yes.
是的
Yeah.
这真是个矛盾。
The paradox.
我做过一项关于草甘膦的研究。
So I did a study on glyphosate.
我是说，我检测了人群中草甘膦的含量。
I mean, I examined our populations for glyphosate.
有趣的是，它还会影响肛门生殖器距离这个指标。
And interestingly, they also have an effect on Remember anogenital distance?
对。
Yes.
私密部位的尺寸。
Taint The taint size.
对。
Yes.
它们会影响那个部位的大小。
They influence the taint size.
是的。
Yeah.
我们其实做了两项研究，还有一些动物实验。
Now that's not We did it in two studies, and there's been some animal studies.
我不能说这已经是确凿的事实，但我想指出的是，它带来了许多意想不到的负面影响，而且没有一个是好的。
I can't say this is an established fact, but I'm just pointing out that it has very, you know, many unforeseen consequences, none of them good.
顺便说一下，有人请我明天去见RK，但我去不了，因为那天我另有安排。不过我真的很想跟他聊聊这个，因为草甘膦是我非常关心的问题。
And by the way, I was asked to go to talk to RK tomorrow, but I can't because I have another another meeting if I'd but I would love to talk to him about this because this this glyphosate is a a big concern of mine.
对。
Yeah.
因为……我希望你真的能跟他谈谈。
Because Well, I hope you do talk to him.
是的。
Yeah.
他搞了一些圆桌讨论，是的。
He he has these roundtables Mhmm.
讨论不同的科学话题。
And on different scientific topics.
这次是关于微塑料的，不太适合我，因为我还没测过这东西。
So this one is on microplastics, which is not perfect for me because I haven't measured them.
但如果他办一场关于草甘膦或者杀虫剂的，那倒是个好机会。
But but if he has one on glyphosate or pesticides, that would be a good place
对他来说确实不错。
for him.
目前关于草甘膦的问题，我们暂时被绑住了手脚。
So Hands are tied right now on the glyphosate issue momentarily.
是的。
Yeah.
他们有一些无毒的解决方案。
They have some nontoxic solutions.
他们有一个新设备，原理跟那些把作物从地里拔出来的机器差不多。
One of them is they have this new device, which is it it like, the same way these machines crop pull the crops out of the ground.
这些机器从作物上方经过，用激光照射并清除那些不必要的植物。
These machines go over the crops and zap all the nonessential crops with a laser beam.
不好意思，我说的是不必要的植物，不是作物。
Nonessential crops, excuse me, nonessential plants.
也就是杂草吧。
So weeds, I would say.
当玉米或者其他作物在生长的时候，它们会把周围抢养分的杂草全都用激光打掉。
So as the corn's growing or what whatever it else it is, they're zapping all the other stuff that's growing around it that's sucking up all the resources, all the weeds.
对。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实是个不错的进展。
That sounds like a good step.
这确实是个不错的进展。
That's a great step.
因为它减少了农药的使用。
Because it minimizes the use of pesticide.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
我问过，这对食物会有残留影响吗？
And I asked, does it have any residual effect on the food?
他说没有。
He said, no.
那太好了。
Well, that's great.
但你知道，农民们面临的一个大问题是，他们本来就没赚多少钱。
But then, you know, farmers, one of the big problems is they're already barely making money.
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