#2477 - 里克·佩里与W.布莱恩·哈伯德

但我们知道，例如，有一对时尚模特双胞胎，她们的父亲性侵了她们长达十年。

But what we know is that, for instance, we have two fashion model twins, whose father sexually abused them for a decade.

这段可怕的共同经历导致她们出现了各种心理问题，其中一人患有进食障碍，另一人则长期遭受神经症困扰。

And the results of that horrific experience that they shared produced all kinds of psychological maladies that included an eating disorder for one, persistent neuroses in the other.

她们尝试了所有形式的心理咨询。

They tried every form of talk therapy.

她们尝试了所有已知的心理治疗方式，试图克服这些创伤。

They tried every psychotherapy modality known to try to overcome that.

正是伊博格因恢复了她们的生活，让她们重新获得了享受上帝赐予生命的能力。

And it was ibogaine that restored their lives and their capacity to enjoy the life that God has given them.

我们正看到越来越多的应急响应人员出现。

We have first responders who are emerging in numbers.

有一位来自俄克拉荷马州的消防员，因数十年的酗酒问题被降职。

One who is a firefighter from Oklahoma who was demoted because of decades of alcoholism.

他的生活因伊博格因而得以重建，如今已重返全职工作岗位。

His life has been restored by ibogaine, and he's back working full time.

我们有一位曾是夏洛茨维尔警察的先生，他在夏洛茨维尔暴乱中被砖头砸中脸部。

We have a gentleman who was a Charlottesville police officer who was hit in the face with a brick during the riots that occurred in Charlottesville.

一次伊博格因治疗就恢复了他的生活，他达到了连他自己和医生都未曾想到的功能水平。

His life was restored by a single Ibogaine treatment, and he has attained a level of functionality that he didn't think was possible, nor his doctors.

我们有一位曾是飞行员的先生，不幸的是，他曾对一个村庄实施轰炸，导致多名无辜平民死亡。

We have a gentleman who was a pilot who unfortunately did a bomb and run on a on a village and and killed a number of innocent people.

他得知此事后陷入崩溃，这与许多经历道德创伤的战士所经历的一样。

He learned about this, and this sent him into a spiral as many war fighters who are exposed to moral injury do.

伊博格因恢复了这位先生的生活。

Ibogaine has restored this gentleman's life.

我们有一位名叫罗伯特·加利的先生，他曾是NFL球员，在退役后表现出慢性创伤性脑病的所有症状。

We have a gentleman by the name of Robert Gallery, a former NFL player who exhibited all the signs of CTE in his post retirement years.

他曾打算自杀，以免伤害自己的家人。

He was ready to kill himself so that he wouldn't harm his own family.

是伊博格因恢复了他的生命。

It was ibogaine that restored his life.

还有其他一些尚未公开姓名的NFL球员。

There have been other NFL players who are as yet unnamed.

其中一些人，顺便提一下，已经登上过报纸，他们接受了伊博格因治疗以缓解类似的症状。

Some, incidentally, that have been in the paper who have gone for ibogaine treatment to address similar symptoms.

NHL的球员，以及其他接触性运动的运动员，包括足球、橄榄球，以及英国的一群新兴职业运动员，他们主动联系我们，表示希望在英国接受伊博格因治疗。

Players in the NHL, players in, other contact sports that include soccer and rugby and The United Kingdom where there is an emerging cohort of professional athletes who have reached out to us to say, we want The United Kingdom for ibogaine.

我非常希望能让你们和UFC建立联系。

I would love to get you guys connected with the UFC.

我们非常希望

We would love

能与UFC建立联系。

to be connected to the UFC.

这显然是职业格斗选手面临的问题。

That is obviously an issue with professional fighters.

所以休斯，马特·休斯，我大概是2008年左右通过马库斯认识了马特，我们一起去看过比赛，后来马特遭遇了一起车祸，当时他真的

So Hughes, Matt Hughes, and Matt had I met Matt through Marcus, gosh, in like 2008 or so and we went out for a fight and then subsequently, Matt had a, I think, a car accident of which he really had

他被火车撞了。

He was hit by a train.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一次极其严重、创伤性的脑部损伤。

Just an incredible, traumatic, brain injury.

我只是想和他聊聊，我相信你们也和这些人有着很好的关系。

And, I'd I'd I'd I just wanna I just to have that conversation with him and I'm sure you have great relationships with those.

我们确切地知道，大脑的累积性损伤才会导致慢性创伤性脑病（CTE）。

We know for a fact that cumulative impacts on the brain are what lead to CTE.

我认为这根本不是一个问题，我们清楚它是如何发生的。

I that's I don't think that's even a question of here's how it happens.

多次脑震荡会对大脑产生累积效应，最终在某个时刻，CTE会带来长期影响。

These multiple concussions have cumulative effect on the brain and at some point in time that CTE has a long time effect.

这种药物有能力消除这种创伤，重置大脑，治愈大脑。

And this medicine has the ability to remove that trauma, to reset that brain, to heal that brain.

我不知道它具体是怎么起作用的，乔，但正是这个原因，随着我们继续推进，这些临床试验将变得至关重要。

I don't know how it works, Joe, but that's the reason these clinical trials are going to be so important as we're going forward.

我无法形容我有多兴奋，因为副州长和议长今天宣布了他们对这些临床试验的全力支持。

And I can't tell you, I'm ecstatic that the lieutenant governor and the speaker today announced their full Texas support behind these clinical trials.

我们即将成为一场真正能够改变世界的运动的中心。

We're fixing to become the epicenter for a movement that literally can change the world.

我知道这听起来有点夸张，但如果我们手中真有一种化合物，能够治愈我们那些患有成瘾问题的亲人——无论是物质成瘾还是非物质成瘾；如果我们真有能力治愈那些因脑震荡而遭受创伤的人；如果我们真能应对各种形式的创伤后应激障碍，那么这种希望将给我们的社会带来多么巨大的改变——我指的不只是美国，你想想以色列、乌克兰、中东地区现在正在发生的事，人们正承受着怎样的创伤。

I know that sounds kind of a little bit over the top, but if we have within our grasp here a compound that can heal our loved ones who have an addiction, be it a substance addiction or be it a non substance addiction, if we have the ability to heal people who have been traumatically impacted by concussions, if we have the ability to address PTSD in all the different forms that it comes, I mean the hope that that can give to the society that we live in, and I'm not talking about just The United States, you think about what's going on in Israel, in Ukraine, in The Middle East today, and the trauma that people are facing.

这真的可以成为给世界的一份非凡礼物。

I mean, truly can be an extraordinary gift to the world.

你知道吗，听我说，我觉得这真的很有趣。

Know, listen, I think it's really interesting.

你问了一个关键问题：我是如何走到今天这个能够如此支持的立场的。

You ask a leading question about how did I come to this position of being able to be supportive as I am.

当我回想起我的成长经历时，我是在一个非常保守的基督教家庭中长大的，我认为我们社会至今仍面临的一个挑战是，保守的基督教信仰总在说：远离这些东西。

And then when I think about my my growing up, and I grew up in a very conservative Christian family, I think one of the challenges we still have in our society is that the conservative Christian faith is like, stay away from that stuff.

我的意思是，这太糟糕了。

I mean, that's that's bad.

无论如何都不要去那里。

Do not in under any circumstances, don't be going there.

这是邪魔外道。

It's demonic.

有一本书即将出版。

And there's a book that's about to be published.

我想是在四月的第一周左右，所以我们快到了。

I think it's about I think the first week in April, so we're approaching it.

有一位名叫温迪·里斯的作者，拼写是 R-E-E-S。

There's an author by the name of Wendy Rees, r e e s.

温迪，拼作 W-E-N-D-I，然后是 R-E-E-S。

Wendy with an I, w e n d I r e e s.

她和那对双胞胎一样，也遭到自己父亲的性侵。

And she, not unlike the two twins, was sexually assaulted by her own father.

谁是教会的牧师？

Who's a pastor of a church?

乔，兄弟，我跟你说，就算我做最可怕的噩梦，也想象不出比一个父亲性侵自己的女儿——而且还是个牧师父亲——更邪恶的事了。

Joe, I'm telling you, brother, I can't dream up in my worst nightmare a more evil thing than a father that would sexually assault their A preacher father.

她的女儿。

Their daughter.

她通过伊博加因克服了这段经历，并得出结论：她能给予这个世界最大的礼物，就是写这本书——《基督徒迷幻剂指南》。

And she dealt with it with ibogaine and has come to the conclusion that her great gift to give to the world out there is to write this book called A Christian's Guide to Psychedelics.

如果你觉得当人们在书店里看到《基督徒迷幻剂指南》这个书名时，不会引起注意，那你就想错了？

Now, if you think that won't catch some people's attention when they're going through the bookstore and they go, A Christian's Guide to Psychedelics?

天哪。

Holy mackerel.

但这本书讲述的是她的亲身经历，同时我也建议每一位信主的基督徒都去读一读，因为书中逐章逐节地引用了圣经，说明上帝是如何谈论这些物质、这些祂赐予世人的东西的。

But this is a book about her experience, but it's also a book that I would suggest that every believing Christian go pick it up and read it because it talks about chapter and verse and and gives you scripture about where god talks about these compounds, about these things that he's given the world.

祂赐下这些，是为了良善。

He means them for good.

全部都是为了好的目的。

All of them for good.

你是否了解以色列的一些学者提出，摩西看到的燃烧的荆棘其实是金合欢树？

Are you aware of the scholars in Israel that are proposing that Moses seeing the burning bush was the acacia tree.

是的。

Yeah.

就是说，有一种金合欢树。

Like, there's an acacia tree.

金合欢树在中东地区非常常见，富含二甲基色胺，他们认为这个故事想要传达的是，摩西通过燃烧这棵树而遇见了上帝。

The acacia tree, which is very common in The Middle East, is rich in dimethyltryptamine, And they believe that what they're trying to relay in this story was that Moses encountered God through the burning of this bush.

因此，这棵燃烧的树释放出致幻化合物二甲基色胺，使摩西得以带回十诫。

So the burning of this bush releasing the psychedelic compound dimethyltryptamine allowed Moses to bring back the 10 commandments.

你知道吗，谢谢你提到这一点。

You know, thank you for mentioning that.

我一直关注着关于圣典中存在大量致幻隐喻的学术研究。

I have been following scholarship around the use and the recognition that there's a lot of psychedelic allegory in holy scripture.

我认为这是最令人着迷的，那燃烧的荆棘揭示了‘我是自有永有的’。

That I think is the favorite where that burning bush reveals the great I am.

当摩西问，你知道，你是谁？

And when Moses says, you know, who are you?

我是我所是。

I am who I am.

关于鸟本因和其它植物疗法的美妙之处在于，它们能够揭示我们每个人内在的‘我是’，这个‘我是’就是我们永恒的创造者，祂绝对设计并把这些植物安置在这片大地上，好让我们确认自己真正的身份和最终的命运，并为此赞美上帝。

And the beauty about ibogaine and the other plant medicines are their capacity to reveal the I am that was is within each of us, and that I am is our eternal creator who absolutely has engineered and placed these plants on this earth so that we can be affirmed in what our true identity and ultimate destiny is, and praise God for it.

还有十字架上的圣菇，约翰·马可·阿尔杰罗的书，他曾是一位被按立的牧师，任务是破译死海古卷。

And then there's also the sacred mushroom in the cross, the John Marco Allegro book where he where he was one of the ordained ministers that was his task was to decode the Dead Sea Scrolls.

他写了一本书，详细阐述了他认为在早期基督教中使用致幻药物的观点。

And he wrote this book that details what he believes is the use of psychedelic drugs in ancient Christianity.

我很难反驳这一点。

Hard for me to argue with.

我的意思是，我只是觉得我们现代人对它的理解

I mean, I I just think our modern perception of it

是的

Yep.

这种看法深受尼克松政府时期的影响，当时政府试图打压嬉皮士运动、反战运动和民权运动。

Which is very tainted by what happened during the Nixon administration where they were trying to squash the hippie movement, the antiwar movement, and the civil rights movement.

因此，他们将这些药物和化合物妖魔化，还把它们归为没有药用价值的类别，这显然不准确。

And that's why they demonized these drugs and these compounds, and that's why they put them in this category of having no medicinal use, which is clearly not accurate.

这并不意味着它们应该无限制地分发给每个人，任何人都可以随意使用而没有任何监管。

It doesn't mean that they should just be given to everyone and everyone should do them with no restrictions and no regulations.

这仅仅意味着我们应该认识到，这些物质有着悠久的人类使用历史，能带来惊人的效果，并能解决我们社会所面临的诸多严重问题。

It just means we should understand that they have a long history of human use and have spectacular results and all sorts of things that our society is suffering from greatly.

仅仅因为上世纪七十年代发生的事情就否认这一点，简直是荒谬的。

And to just pretend that that's not the case based on what happened in the nineteen seventies is just insane.

这毫无道理。

It doesn't make any sense.

我想指出，对于美国50岁以下的人群——我称之为独立二百周年一代——所学到的最重要教训之一是：当今美国最道德败坏的罪犯就是权力。

I would suggest that one of the greatest lessons learned by Americans who are aged 50 and younger, those of us who I call the bicentennial children, is that the most morally depraved criminal in America today is power.

当人类之手在最滥用的情境下施展时，总会试图剥夺每个人作为上帝子嗣所享有的神圣性、自由与自主权。

And the power of the human hand, when it is wielded in its most abusive context, will always seek to deny any access to individual human divinity and the liberty and autonomy that is conferred upon each of us as children of God.

而当我们发现自己正站在一个广泛精神运动的边缘时——我相信，我们这些生活在现代美国经验主义社会中的现代人，终将拨开财富与科技的迷雾，认清真相。

And insofar as we find ourselves at the precipice of what I believe is the emergence of a broad based spiritual movement where all of us modernists within the empiricism of modern American society are able to see through the fog of all of our wealth and gadgetry and recognize.

我们正身处美国深刻的精神饥荒之中。

We are in the midst of profound spiritual famine in The United States.

我知道，恕我提及年龄，你还记得上世纪八十年代中期，我们目睹了埃塞俄比亚和苏丹大规模饥荒的恐怖画面：人们因饥饿而瘦骨嶙峋、蝇虫缠身、惨死街头，数以百万计的人因权力的恶意阻挠，无法获得外界提供的任何援助。

You, I know, and forgive me for reference in age, remember back in the mid eighties where we saw all these horrific images of starvation and dissension distention and fly covered death from mass famine in Ethiopia and Sudan, where millions of people starved to death because the malevolence of power forbade the delivery of any relief sent by the outside world.

当我们审视今日美国眼前的一切，无法否认，我们正深陷一场可怕的精神饥荒，而美国权力的邪恶正以我们的匮乏为食。

When we look at what's right in front of us in The United States today, there is no denying that we are in the midst of a terrible spiritual famine, and the malevolence of American power is feasting on our starvation.

这是一场解放这场国家乃至全球每一个被剥夺了自身灵性之人的思想、身体与灵魂的运动。

This is an emancipation movement for the mind, body, and soul of every human being in this country and across the globe who is lethally exchanged from their own spirituality.

伊博格因使命旨在推动多种目前尚无有效疗法的疾病的医学突破。

The ibogaine mission is a mission to foment dramatic medical breakthroughs across a host of conditions that have no effective therapeutic answers.

但更重要的是，它关乎对生命精神本质的肯定，这种肯定能以我们应对未来二十年变革所必需的方式，将人类团结为一个整体。

But above and beyond that, it is about the affirmation of the spiritual essence of life that can unify us as a species in a way that is necessary if we're gonna navigate these changes over the next twenty years.

佩里州长提到了我收到的一个精彩邀请，去参加所谓的地球一号峰会。

Governor Perry mentioned this wonderful invitation that I received to go to, what was called the Earth One Summit.

乔，我来自弗吉尼亚州的山地小谷，我确实如此。

Now, Joe, I come out of Hillbilly Hollow, Virginia, and I it's a I do.

我曾

I rec I've

我时不时地向大家介绍他。

I introduced him from time to time.

我说，你看。

I said, look.

这个人，他看起来和说话方式都像来自阿巴拉契亚山脉东肯塔基州的山里人。

This guy, he's he's he looks like and he sounds like a hillbilly from, Eastern Kentucky in the Appalachian Mountains.

我说，他确实是。

And I said, he is.

但我还说，他是我一生中见过的最聪明的人之一，也是我见过的最非凡的演说家之一。

But I said, he's one of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life and one of the most extraordinary orators I've ever had in my life.

所以，不管怎样，我想说，兄弟，我非常爱你，但你确实是个山里人。

So anyway, I wanted to I I I love you, brother, but you are a hillbilly.

嗯，比起你刚才说的那些其他东西，我更乐意接受这个称呼。

Well, I'm much more comfortable with that than all that other stuff you said.

但你知道，有时候你从一无所有中打拼出来，难免会缺少某些教养，而我也不例外。

But, you know, when you come out of scratch nothing sometimes, there are certain sophistications that you lack, and and I'm no exception to that.

所以，当时有个叫‘地球一号峰会’的活动。

So there was this Earth One summit.

来自全球的200位思想领袖齐聚一堂，主要讨论未来。我非常荣幸收到邀请，去参加这次聚会，谈谈我和佩里州长通过‘美国人支持伊博格因’所推动的工作，他们还邀请我担任大会的闭幕主旨演讲人。

It was 200 thought leaders from across the world who came to basically discuss the future, and I was very honored to have received an invitation to come and attend the gathering to speak about what governor Perry and I are working on through Americans for Ibogaine, and they presented me with the honor of being the closing keynote speaker for the gathering.

在为期四天的会议中，我听到了包括金布尔和克里斯蒂娜·马斯克在内的发言者，也读过埃隆·马斯克的访谈，他谈到人工智能的兴起，以及AI解决人类自走出洞穴以来一直面临的根本困境——匮乏问题的能力。

And as I listened over the course of four days, I heard individuals who included, Kimball and Christiana Musk, and I've read interviews by, Elon Musk speaking about the advent of AI and the capacity of AI to solve the central dilemma that we as humans have had since we emerged from the caves, and that's the dilemma of scarcity.

当我听到人们谈论我们正站在一个新时代的边缘——那时我们可以自动化生产手段，为地球上每个人创造无限的富足时，我不禁思考：我们现在所处的位置，与这些人所预见的二十年后的世界，究竟相差多远。

So as I was there listening to folks speak about being on the edge of a time when we can automate the means of production and essentially create an unlimited amount of abundance for every person on this planet, I couldn't help but think about where we are right now as compared to where these individuals see us being in twenty years.

你不可能创造出并部署这种近乎神级的技术——它有能力产生无限的富足，甚至可能开启水瓶座时代，然后把它丢进我们当前这些由无助的弱者支撑、制造并靠持续的人类苦难牟利的、如同弗兰肯斯坦怪物般的政府体系中。

You cannot create and deploy this kind of godlike technology, which has the capacity to produce unlimited abundance, potentially usher in the age of Aquarius, and drop it in to these Frankenstein monstrosity government systems that we currently have that are enthroned upon the helplessness of powerless people that perpetuate problems that they are supposed to solve and that monetize sustained human misery.

只要政府靠压榨美国人民来赚钱，我们未来的前景就更像《疯狂的麦克斯》，而不是《星际迷航》。

So long as government makes its buck over keeping its foot on the necks of the American people, we are looking at a future that much more resembles Mad Max than we are Star Trek.

如果我们想要建立必要的社会凝聚力，来监督这些体系并创建一个真正能带来无限丰裕、改善全人类处境的系统，那么这一切必须从精神觉醒开始，而伊博加因首当其冲，其他致幻剂也在美国社会中促成和推动这种觉醒。

And if we are going to create the degree of social cohesion that is necessary to hold these systems accountable and to create a system that can truly usher in that age of unlimited abundance to improve the human condition for all, it begins with a spiritual reawakening that ibogaine first and foremost, and the rest of the psychedelics concede and foment within American society.

为此，接下来我会安静一小会儿

To that end, and then I'll be quiet for the next little

好的，兄弟。

bit.

太好了，伙计。

Good, man.

我们喜欢，我们喜欢，我们喜欢听你说话。

We love we love we love listening to you.

明年将推出一部六集的纪录片系列，名为《致幻剂与》，该系列采访了美国各地的一群领袖，他们讲述了自己的寻道之旅，以及致幻剂如何帮助他们认识到，我们远不止是每天起床上班、成为生产性经济单元、回家重复循环的物质存在。

There is a six part docuseries that will come out next year called Psychedelics And, and it is a series of interviews with a cross section of leaders across The United States where they speak about their own quest for meaning and how psychedelics has helped them understand that we are more than just these material beings that get up and go to work every day and are a productive economic unit go home and repeat.

我们存在的意义远高于此，我们来到世上是为了服务，而这些植物本身具备大规模启迪我们的能力，这对于我们实现那些先驱者所构想和梦想的丰裕时代至关重要。

That there is a much higher sense of purpose that we are here to serve and that the plants themselves have the capacity to enlighten us at scale in a way that's absolutely necessary if we're gonna make that age of abundance happen as those visionaries articulate and and dream for.

我认为我们所处时代的迷人之处在于，变化虽然来得缓慢，但当你拥有今天人们所能接触到的信息时，变化就会快得多。

What I think is fascinating about the age that we're living in is that change comes very slowly, but it comes much faster when you have the kind of access to information that people have today.

我认为二十年前不可能有这样一场对话。

I don't think this conversation was possible twenty years ago.

不会。

No.

绝对不可能。

No way.

这真的很了不起。

And that's kind of amazing.

绝对不可能。

No way.

这真的很了不起。

It's kind of amazing.

我认为二十年前并没有适合这场对话的平台。

And I don't think that there was a format for this conversation twenty years ago.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

这种形式的出现是因为信息时代、互联网的发展，以及再也没有人把关了，人们可以自由选择自己想消费、想听的内容。

This format has occurred because of the age of information, because of the Internet, and because there's no gatekeepers anymore, and because people have the choice to decide what they wanna consume, what they wanna listen to.

能够参与其中，对我来说是一种非凡的特权。

And to be able to be a part of that to me is an incredible privilege.

能够邀请你们来参与这场对话，并意识到这一切之所以成为可能，是因为——姑且这么说——世界正在觉醒。

And to be able to have you guys on and to have this conversation and to recognize that the reason why this is possible is because with for a lack of a better term, the world's waking up.

是的，先生。

Yes, sir.

只是比我们希望的要慢一些。

It's just taking more time than we would like.

是的。

Yeah.

但世界正在觉醒，变化正在发生。

But the world is waking up, and change happens.

它只是自然而然地发生。

It just happens.

人们必须改变他们的观点，而这非常困难，因为许多人将自己的观点视为自我身份的一部分。

People have to change their opinions, and that's very difficult because a lot of people identify with their opinions.

他们的观点成为了他们意识形态的一部分，因此要让人们改变意识形态非常困难。

They their opinions become a part of their ideology, and it's just very difficult to get people to change their ideology.

他们将这些观点与自我认同融为一体。

They they identify with this.

这些就是他们本人。

It is them.

我一直试图告诉人们我是如何对待事情的。

And I've always tried to tell people the way I try to approach things.

你并不等于你的想法。

You are not your ideas.

是的。

Yep.

你不是你的观点。

You are not your opinions.

这些只是想法。

These are just thoughts.

如果你认同它们，你就会被它们困住，并被它们挟持。

And if you identify with them, you are trapped in them, and you you will be held hostage by them.

即使它们毫无道理，你也会试图为它们辩护。

You will try to defend them even if they don't make sense.

你会试图忽视那些与你现有信念体系相悖的证据。

You will try to ignore evidence that points you in a direction that's contrary to what your current belief system is.

不要成为你的观点。

Don't be your opinions.

不要成为你的想法。

Don't be your ideas.

只是与它们共处。

Just sit in them.

保持一致。

Be consistent.

诚实待人。

Be honest.

坚持你的伦理和道德，但这些想法只是想法。

Have ethics and morals that you adhere to, but the ideas are just ideas.

如果你错了，你应该自豪地承认错误。

And if you're wrong, you should be proud to say wrong.

这是一种成长的标志。

It's a it's a a sign of growth.

这是智慧的体现，也表明你是一个关心真相而非输赢的诚实的人。

It's a sign of intelligence, and it it's a sign of you being an honest human being who cares about the truth, not about being right.

因为这个世界上有太多人根本不会真正交谈。

Because there's too many people in this world that they don't really have conversations.

他们进行的是意识形态的对抗，只是陷入这种微小的智力拉锯战，只想着赢，而现在不是这样做的时候。

They have ideological sparring matches where they're just involved in these little intellectual tugs of war where they're just trying to be right, and this is not the time for that.

这只不过是。

This it's just.

我从最初坚决反对刑事司法改革，转变为在2000年代中期成为刑事司法改革的领军人物。

So my my going from hard no on criminal justice reform to a literally a leader on criminal justice reform in the mid two thousands.

我从最初坚决反对任何可能用于任何用途的致幻药物，到现在被我幽默地称为伊博加因的‘约翰尼·苹果籽’，这正印证了你的观点。

My going from a hard no on any psychedelic drugs that could be used in any way to now being what I've humorously refer to as the Johnny Appleseed of ibogaine is to your point.

要保持开放。

You know, be be open.

愿意承认自己错了。

Be willing to say you were wrong.

我知道我妻子希望我更多地这样做。

I know my wife would like to hear me do that more often.

嘿，你不介意吧？我想花一分钟谈谈这个运动已经取得了多大的进展。

Hey, you don't mind, I want to take a minute and talk about how far this movement has come.

布赖恩谈到了美国伊博加因组织以及我们遍布全国的倡导者，还有我们所见证的这一领域的成长。

And Bryan talked about Americans for Ibogaine and our ambassadors all across the country and the growth that that we've seen in this.

我想举一个例子来说明你的观点：五年前，如果有一个在脑健康和脑科学领域拥有良好声誉的机构，他们可能会直接把你推到一边，说‘不，谢谢’。

And I wanna give you one example of to your point of that five years ago, if you'd had an institution, that had its own reputation dealing with brain health and brain science and those kind of things, they would have just kinda moved you off to the side and said, you know, no thanks.

但达拉斯的脑健康中心却是一个非凡的机构，隶属于德克萨斯大学达拉斯分校。

But the Center for Brain Health in Dallas, this is an extraordinary institution that's connected to the University of Texas Dallas.

事实上，它就紧邻UT西南医学中心，后者是全球顶尖的医疗设施之一。

Matter of fact, it's just next door to UT Southwestern, which is one of the great medical facilities in the world, UT Southwestern.

还有查普曼博士。

And Doctor.

桑迪·查普曼博士领导着脑健康中心，他们已经取得了一些了不起的成果。

Sandy Chapman heads up the Center for Brain Health, and they've done some great work.

我们大约在六到九周前去拜访了她，当时还有另一个组织叫‘Forward Intent’。

We went up and presented to her, I don't know, probably sixty to ninety days ago, and there was another organization called Forward Intent.

Forward Intent。

Forward Intent.

Forward Intent，那是一对年轻夫妇——亚历克斯·杜兰和他的丈夫，他们用自己的资源资助了一项计划，正在送大约250人前往墨西哥，前往名为‘Transcend’和‘Ambeo’的机构，而Ambeo正是我、布赖恩、马库斯和摩根·洛特尔都去过的那个机构，我想现在已经有大约两千名战士去过Ambeo了。

Forward Intent, just a beautiful young man and his wife, Alex Duran, and his wife who have funded an effort and what they're doing with their resources, they're sending I think two fifty individuals down to Mexico to both I think a facility called Transcend and to Ambeo, and Ambeo is that facility that I've been to, Bryan's been to, Marcus and Morgan Lottrell have been to, I think, you know, probably 2,000 more fighters have been down to Ambeo now.

退伍军人协会为他们提供资助。

Vets underwrites them.

顺便说一句，这件事已经迅速扩大了规模。

And just as an aside, this has blown up so big.

我说的是关于伊博格因的努力、伊博格因的教育，人们意识到这里确实存在希望，大家纷纷寻找可以前往的地方，以治疗亲人成瘾或应对创伤后应激障碍等问题。

And I'm talking about the the ibogaine effort, the education of ibogaine, people, you know, there's some hope out there and people are rushing to find where they can go to, you know, to treat the addiction that their loved one hands or deal with their PTSD and what have you.

Ambeo 已经满员了，我确信，那里其他机构也是如此。

And Ambeo is just covered up, and I'm sure, you know, other facilities are as well down there.

那个叫 Vets 的组织，其实正是我介入这个领域的起点，我认为 Amber 和 Marcus Capone 现在已经没有空位了。

The the the organization Vets, which is really where I came into this, I think Amber and and Marcus Capone, they don't have don't have any openings anymore.

我的意思是，他们已经完全排满了，但这其实是个好问题。

I mean, they are completely covered up and and but I mean, that's a good challenge.

我很高兴我们面临这样的挑战。

I'm glad we have that challenge.

但我的观点是，在德克萨斯州达拉斯有一个机构，就像整个州正在接收到这个信号：公开谈论这些问题是可以的，成为领导者是可以的，站出来引领这场变革是可以的，我想读给你听博士的话。

But my point is you've got an institution in Dallas, Texas that just like the state is getting the signal, it's okay to be out there talking about this, it's okay to be a leader, it's okay to get out there and lead the charge, and I want to read to you what Doctor.

查普曼，因为我问过她，说：‘我能不能谈谈你们在做的事情？’

Chapman because I asked her, said, Do you mind if I talk about what you all are doing?

她回答：‘当然可以。’

And she said, Absolutely.

她还说：‘州长，昨天和您交谈真是太好了。’

And she said, Governor, great to talk with you yesterday.

以下是一些指导性意见，帮助您更好地讨论我们现有的合作。

Here are some comments to guide you in how to discuss our existing collaboration.

我很高兴宣布，我们已与脑健康中心、德克萨斯大学达拉斯分校、美国爱博盖因组织和Forward Intent启动合作，共同开展迄今为止规模最大的爱博盖因研究，聚焦于了解其对退伍军人群体大脑的影响。

I'm excited to announce that we have begun a partnership with the Center for Brain Health, the University of Texas at Dallas, Americans for Ibogaine and Forward Intent to create the largest research study of ibogaine to date focused on understanding its impact on the brain among the veteran community.

医生。

Doctor.

弗朗切斯卡·菲利比博士是认知与转化神经科学领域的专家，尤其擅长运用神经影像技术研究大脑与行为之间的关系，她将领导这项研究。

Francesca Filby, an expert in cognitive and translational neuroscience, especially the use of neuroimaging to study brain behavior relationships, will lead the research.

我们的共同使命是超越‘爱博盖因是否有效’这个问题。

Our mission together is to move beyond the question of, Does ibogaine help?

而是回答退伍军人和临床医生真正关心的更实际的问题。

And instead answer the more practical questions veterans and clinicians need.

第一，谁会受益？为什么？

Number one, who benefits and why?

这些益处能持续多久？

How long do the benefits last?

哪些日常生活功能，比如

Which aspects of daily life functioning, I.

认知、睡眠、物质使用和整体健康状况，在治疗后是改善还是恶化？

E, cognition, sleep, substance use and overall well-being, improve or worsen following treatment?

这些变化又与大脑的哪些改变相关？

And how are these changes associated with brain alterations?

这项为期三年的研究将跟踪接受伊博格因治疗的受试者长达十八个月，从而首次揭示伊博格因在不同治疗方案下对大脑的长期影响。

The three year study will follow those treated with ibogaine over the course of eighteen months which will allow us to create the first understanding of the sustained impacts of ibogaine on the brain across various treatment regimes.

我们将在11月19日的‘脑健康中心演讲系列’活动中进一步深入探讨这一主题。

We'll be diving more into this topic on November 19 at the Center for Brain Health Presents Speaker Series to share more.

通过将世界级的科学严谨性引入这一领域，我们不仅是在研究一种物质，更是在为那些最需要的人建立一个安全、知情获取的坚实知识基础。

By bringing world class scientific rigor to this space, we aren't just studying a substance, we're creating a foundation of knowledge that will expand safe, informed access for those who need it most.

这正是美国人支持伊博格因组织的核心所在。

That is what Americans for Ibogaine is really all about.

看到这种影响力，取得这样的成功，见证布莱恩和其他人在德克萨斯州所创造的一切，我必须告诉你，兄弟，我一生中从未有过比看到我们正在做的事、知道有父亲母亲的孩子将因此得救更让我感到欣慰的事。

Making that type of penetration, having that type of success, seeing what Bryan and the other folks have created here in the state of Texas, I'm gonna tell you something, brother, There is nothing that I've been involved with in my life that gives me more pleasure than to see what we're doing and knowing that there's a father out there, a mother out there whose child's gonna be saved.

你提到了教条。

You mentioned dogma.

特别是在美国社会，人们一直在寻求身份认同。

People are in particular, in American society, there is a quest for identity.

人们也在寻求归属感。

There is a quest for belonging.

我们在社交媒体和广播媒体上看到的大量愤怒、不满和疏离感，其实源于深刻的孤独，源于缺乏归属感，也源于从未在安全稳定的家庭关系中体验过无条件的关爱。

So much of what we see on social media and in broadcast media that is rage and anger and disaffection is tremendous loneliness and a tremendous lack of of of belonging to something and a tremendous amount of trauma related to never having had anything that resembles unconditional affection within the context of a safe and stable familial relationship.

这种现象在美国是普遍存在的。

That's at scale within The United States.

教条阻碍进化的力量，完全正确。

And the degree to which dogma can thwart evolution is a 100% right on.

我就拿我自己当例子。

And I just use my own self as an example.

我是里根时代的美国孩子。

I was a child of Reagan's America.

我还记得，1980年里根总统和卡特总统进行首次总统辩论时，我才五岁左右。

I can remember I was about five years old when he and president Carter had their first presidential debate in 1980.

里根总统就像是福音的鹅妈妈。

President Reagan was like the mother goose to the gospel.

他深深印在了我的心里。

He just imprinted on me.

当其他小男孩的房间里贴满了乔·蒙塔纳、迈克尔·乔丹和迈克尔·杰克逊的海报时，我的房间却贴满了罗纳德·里根的画像。

And whereas other young boys had pictures of Joe Montana and Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson all over their rooms, mine was wallpapered with Ronald Reagan.

我在高中时是青少年共和党俱乐部的主席。

I was the president of the Teenage Republicans in high school.

我经常给他写粉丝信。

I wrote him fan letters all the time.

他真的回过我一封信，我把那封信装裱挂在了房间里。

He actually replied to one, and I put it in a frame in my room.

那封信是写在我生日那天的。

It was written on my birthday.

我在乔治·梅森大学担任大学共和党人协会主席，我的目标就是成为保守派共和党人顺从的楷模。

I was president of the College Republicans at George Mason University, and I mean I aimed to be the king of conservative Republican conformity.

那就是我一生的全部使命。

That was my whole mission in life.

我以前常开玩笑说，当人们问，你是怎么走到这一步的？

And I used to joke that when people said, well, how did you get to this?

你有没有想过，你如今谈论这些，还如此热忱地倡导，这背后意味着什么？

And what do you think about the fact that you're talking about it and you're so zealous in your advocacy?

我会半开玩笑地说，如果25岁的我能看到50岁的我，他一定会惊讶地问：你身上到底发生了什么？

I would kind of make a half statement and say, well, if 25 year old me could come and see 50 year old me, he would look and say, in the world happened to you?

我会一边做出嫌恶的表情，一边笑着说起

And I would kind of yuck and yuck and laugh about

这个。

it.

好吧，这就是答案。

Well, here's the answer.

如果25岁的我能回到现在，看着50岁的我，问：‘你到底怎么了？’

If 25 year old me could come back and look at 50 year old me and say, what happened to you?

50岁的我会直视着他回答：‘是你改变了我。’

50 year old me would look right back and say, you happened to me.

是你改变了我。

You happened to me.

你那青春时期的确定感，你坚信自己已经参透一切，你认为自己再无更高层次的成长可言——先生，你和你那傲慢的青春，都改变了我。

Your youthful sense of certainty, your belief that you had it all figured out, your belief that you had no further greater evolution to achieve, sir, you and your insolence of youth, you happened to me.

我之所以如此享受了解佩里州长，是因为我和他逐渐建立起的关系。我第一次真正开始关注他，是在他2012年竞选总统的时候。

One of the things that I have so enjoyed learning about governor Perry and as he and I have built relationship, the first time I really started following him was when he ran for president in 2012.

我相信，如果他没有接受那次背部手术，我们就不会迎来奥巴马的第二个任期。

And I believe that had he not had that back surgery, we would have we would not have had a second Obama term.

他会赢得那场选举，而且我认为他会大获全胜。

He would have won that race, and I think he would have won it handedly.

听这位一直被公认为共和党保守派核心人物的先生如此愿意保持好奇，展现出人类宝贵的求知欲，愿意倾听、愿意了解，甚至愿意接受他过去所学的关于这个特定主题的观念可能并不正确，这真是令人惊叹。

It's been remarkable to listen to this gentleman who has been so firmly identified with the conservative wing of the Republican Party be so willing to be curious and to have that human value of curiosity and a willingness to hear and a willingness to know and a willingness to entertain that perhaps everything that he had been taught about this particular subject was not correct.

好奇心是人类最重要的价值之一，如果你让教条扼杀了你的好奇心，你就自我束缚了。

Curiosity is a prime human value, and if you allow dogma to shut off your curiosity, you have hobbled yourself.

我认为是穆罕默德·阿里说过，如果一个50岁的男人还和20岁时一样想法完全不变，那他就浪费了生命中的三十年，这话简直一针见血。

And I think it was Muhammad Ali who said, if if if a 50 year old man thinks the exact same way as a 20 year old man as he did when he was 20, he's wasted thirty years of his life, and that is that is dead on right.

一针见血。

Dead on right.

是的。

Yeah.

我可以作证。

I could attest to that.

好奇心是我最重要的特质。

Curiosity is my number one attribute.

这正是引导我人生和我所做一切的事情——保持开放和好奇的心态。

That's the thing that's led me in life and everything I've ever done is just being open minded and curious.

我很幸运，我在20岁时根本没觉得自己已经明白了所有事情。

I'm very fortunate is that I didn't think I had things figured out when I was 20 at all.

我确信自己是个笨蛋。

I was sure that I was a moron.

我只擅长一件事：踢人。

I was good at one thing, kicking people.

就这一件。

That's it.

从那时起，我意识到还有很多东西要学，尽管我学了很多关于武术的知识，但我能将这种开放的自律精神应用其中，因为你要想在武术上有所成就，就必须保持开放的心态，因为你得学会倾听。

And then from then, I realized that there's a lot to learn and that as much as I learned about martial arts, I could apply that sort of open minded discipline because you you have to be open minded to be good at martial arts because you have to be able to listen.

你不能觉得自己已经全都知道了。

You can't think you already know.

你做不到。

You cannot.

你不会成长，也不会变得更好。

You won't you won't grow and you won't get better.

你必须倾听教练的指导。

You you have to be listening to coaches.

你必须倾听老师的教导。

You have to be listening to instructors.

你必须倾听队友的意见。

You have to be listening to your teammates.

你必须倾听每个人的话。

You have to listen to everybody.

如果你不听，如果你不告诉我。

If you don't listen, if you have don't tell me.

那些人不会有任何进展，我很早就明白了这一点。

Those people don't go anywhere and I learned that very early on.

我很幸运找到了这条道路，因为我把这种态度应用到了我生命中几乎所有的事务中，而不是抱着一种我已经看透一切的信念。

It's very fortunate that I found that path because I've applied that to virtually everything that I've ever done in life instead of having this belief that I have things figured out.

我的意思是，我确实曾在生活中很多时刻比应有的更加自信，但我始终愿意停下来想一想：也许我错了。

I mean, I've I've certainly, like, been more sure than I should have been at many times in my life, but always willing to stop and go, maybe I'm wrong.

如果没有这个播客，它永远不会达到今天的成就，因为我有幸能与许多杰出的人交谈。

And if it wasn't for this podcast, it would have never gotten to where it is because I've fortunately been able to talk to brilliant people.

你知道，我小时候在加利福尼亚生活了二十六年。

And, you know, I grew up in I lived in California for twenty six years.

在那之前，我住在波士顿和纽约。

Before that, I, you know, I lived in Boston and New York.

我曾经对南方口音特别有看法。

I thought of people the the southern accent in particular.

对吧？

Right?

这其实是沿海地区很多人普遍存在的一个刻板印象。

Then this is a a standard thing that a lot of people on the coasts have.

你听到人们带着南方口音说话。

You hear people talk with a southern accent.

你以为他们很笨。

You think they're dumb.

这是一种可怕的刻板印象，实际上是由钩虫寄生虫引起的。

And it's a it's a terrible stereotype that actually came out because of hookworm parasites.

我相信你听说过这个故事。

I'm sure you're aware of that story.

我就不知道。

And I'm not.

你也不知道。

You're not.

给我讲讲吧。

Educate me.

懒惰、愚钝的南方人这种刻板印象，源于南方大量人口因赤脚行走而感染钩虫，而钩虫寄生虫会剥夺你的智力能力。

The stereotype of the lazy, dull minded southerner came out of the fact that a large percentage of people in the South had contracted hookworms from walking around barefoot and hookworm parasites will rob you of your intellectual capacity.

它们会严重削弱你的思考能力并让你精疲力尽。

They greatly diminish your ability to think and exhaust you.

你会变得越来越慢，而且，quote，看起来更懒，但其实你只是被寄生虫感染了。

You you you get slower and, you know, in quotes, lazier, but you're really just infected with the parasite.

在二十世纪，有极大比例的人口感染了钩虫，尤其是在南方，我原本不知道这一点。

And it's an ex an enormous percentage of the population in the nineteen hundreds were were infected with hookworm and in the South, in particular I don't that.

炎热的气候。

Hot climates.

这个刻板印象就是由此而来的。

And this is where this this stereotype came from.

当你像你这样拥有如此惊人的记忆力时，你的记忆简直太惊人了。

When someone like you speaks with such insane recall, Like, your recall is bananas.

你对日期、名字和时间的记忆力都很好，而我的记忆力也算不错。

Like, your recall of dates and names and times, and I have a pretty good recall.

但根本没法和你相比。

It's nothing like yours.

这太非凡了。

You it's extraordinary.

我喜欢遇到那些聪明却仍带着南方口音的人，因为这简直就像……

And I love when I meet someone who's brilliant who still has a Southern accent because it's it's like

正如我所说。

Like I said.

是的。

Yeah.

忘掉你所有的刻板印象吧。

Forget all your stereotypes.

放下它们吧，宝贝，因为它们都不是真的。

Let them all go, baby, because they're not real.

这不是真的。

It's not real.

那些全都不是真的。

None none of that is real.

每个人差异巨大。

Individuals vary wildly.

你知道，我遇到过来自沿海城市的天才，也遇到过一些混蛋，他们说话方式让你以为他们是受过高等教育的聪明人，但实际上却思想封闭、愚蠢透顶。

And, you know, I've met brilliant people from coastal cities, and I've met fucking morons that talk like, you know, a person that you would assume would be a highly educated intelligent person, but they're closed minded and and foolish in their ways.

由于我有机会与各种不同的人进行对话，每次新的交谈都让我对世界的理解又多了一点、再深了一点、再广了一点。

And having had this ability to have all these different conversations with different people, it's just like every time I have another conversation, it expands my understanding just a little more and a little more and a little more.

我非常喜欢这样，这一切都源于好奇心。

And I love it, and it's all out of curiosity.

我很高兴自己能让这种好奇心具有感染力。

And I'm I'm very happy that I've been able to make that curiosity infectious.

我最喜欢的城市，我知道我们这里有点偏离常规了。

My favorite cities, and I know we're getting off the beaten path here a little bit.

我喜欢偏离常规路线。

I love to get off the beaten path.

这是我最喜欢做的事。

That's my favorite thing to do.

我最喜欢的美国城市是那些你去了之后不会觉得自己身在本国的地方。

My favorite cities in America are those that you can go to and not feel like you're in the country.

迈阿密太棒了。

Miami is fabulous.

那是个疯狂的地方。

It's a wild place.

去迈阿密你得拿护照。

You should have a passport to go to Miami.

确实太棒了。

It is fabulous.

我记得我五岁左右第一次去纽约市的时候。

And, I remember the first time I went to New York City one time when I was about five years old.

我唯一记得的是帝国大厦，还有个头发是紫色的家伙冲我吐舌头。

The only thing I could remember was the Empire State Building and some dude with purple hair sticking his tongue out at me.

下一次是2019年，那时我还有着典型的南方人态度，觉得纽约人高傲、粗鲁、自以为是。

The next time was in 2019, and I'd always had kind of that stereotypical southerners attitude, a bunch of, you know, haughty, rude Stuck up.

刻薄，活跃，是的。

Mean, active Yep.

纽约客，是的。

Yankee people Yep.

住在这样一个令人讨厌的地方，简直会是人间地狱。

Living in an obnoxious locale that would just be hell on earth to have to endure.

所以我有机会去那里待了一天，乘火车从康涅狄格州的纽黑文抵达中央车站，看着我们驶入城市时建筑的宏伟规模。

So I had the opportunity to go and spend a day there and rolled into Grand Central Station on the railway from, I think it was New Haven, Connecticut, and just to watch the dimensions of the architecture as we rolled into the city.

疯狂。

Crazy.

这个地方的规模之宏大。

The expansion of scale of this place.

你当时多大？

How old were you?

嗯，让我想想。

Well, let's see.

我当时快要44岁了。

I was about to turn, 44.

我经过那里时，脑子里似乎响起了《贝弗利山人》的音乐。

I think I could hear the Beverly Hillbillies music playing in my head when I was going down through there.

我们从中央车站下车后，我就走遍了整个地方。

So we get off our Grand Central Station, and, I mean, I walked all through that.

我从中央车站一直走到世界贸易中心原来所在的位置。

I walked from Grand Central Station all the way down to the tip of where the World Trade Center was.

纽约市是一项伟大的人类成就。

It was New York City is a monumental human accomplishment.

当整个世界都浓缩在三百平方英里的范围内，这本身就是对美国作为人类最后希望的生动证明——仅仅置身于此地，就让人感受到这一切。

When you can have the entire world within three hundred square miles and it is a a living affirmation of everything The United States is supposed to be as the last best hope of humankind on Earth just to be in that place.

自从那以后，每次我回去，只要一在拉瓜迪亚机场叫上优步，看到那片天际线，我的心就开始狂跳，狂跳，狂跳。

Anytime I've gone back since, I mean, the minute that I, go to get the Uber at LaGuardia Airport and I see that skyline, I mean, my heart just starts racing, racing, racing.

我从未想过自己会如此爱上纽约市，但它确实太棒了。

I would have never thought that I would just fall in love with New York City, but it is fabulous.

旧金山也是这样。

San Francisco is the same way.

美国有很多美好的地方，你可能不会想到像我这样的人会支持它们，但我做过的最好的一件事就是不再看电视新闻。

Just there are so many wonderful places in The United States where you wouldn't think that somebody necessarily who sounded like me would would would endorse, but one of the best things that I have done is stop watching television news.

我上一次看电视新闻是在2009年1月奥巴马第一次记者会之后，然后我就关掉了。

The last time I watched television news was after the first Obama press conference in January 2009, and I cut it off.

哇。

Wow.

除了总统辩论和选举结果，我再也没有打开过电视。

Aside from presidential debates and election returns, I've never turned it back on.

我不该说这个数字。

The number I shouldn't tell this.

我有多少次把前门和车库门大开着，而我的社区里却什么事都没发生，这真是令人惊叹。

The number the number of times I've left my front door wide open, the garage door open in my neighborhood, and nothing has happened is remarkable.

就人民而言，这个国家和1950年时一样，从未改变过。

This country, in terms of her people, is as much like it was back in 1950 as it has ever been.

肤色有点不同。

The complexion is a little different.

我们现在比以往任何时候都更加多元化。

We've got a lot more diversity now than we've ever had.

但一旦你摘下大众媒体混乱和那些故意制造分裂以维持我们对立的面纱。

But once you take that blinder of mass media mayhem and all this fabricated division that is purposely put out there to keep us divided.

为了让我们持续关注。

To keep us tuning in.

持续关注并加剧分裂。

Tuning in and and segregate it.

是的。

Yeah.

一旦你把自己从这一切中抽离出来，开始进行真正的对话，下次当有人乘坐优步时，遇到一个母语不是英语的人，就主动开启一段对话。

Once you take yourself out of it and you just start having a conversation, next time someone gets into an Uber with someone who doesn't have English as a sacred language, track up a conversation.

问问他们：你是怎么来到美国的？

Ask them, how did you come to The United States?

是什么让你来到这里的？

What brought you here?

当你听到来自中东和非洲的人用他们的口音讲述这个国家时，你的心里会充满难以置信的自豪与爱意，这些话语会让我们瞬间回到1776年。

And your heart is going to feel with just the unbelievable amount of pride and love to hear those accents from The Middle East and from Africa speak about this country in ways that take us right back to 1776.

这是一个了不起的地方，而我能如此坦诚地表达这一切，是因为这些计划帮助我们澄清了那个我们所有人都共有的普世人性与神圣性——这个国家是守护和尊崇这一精神的摇篮，这正是这项使命如此至关重要的原因。

It's a fabulous place, and I'm able to say so much of this because of what the plans have helped clarify by way of that universal human divinity that we all share, that this country is the cradle to protect and to honor, which is what makes this mission so incredibly important.

而且我确实想说，哦，抱歉。

And I do wanna oh, I'm sorry.

不。

No.

你继续说。

Go ahead.

请说吧。

Please.

我漏掉了我们大使计划中的两个人，我觉得他们特别出色，我想提一下。

There's two people that I left off of our ambassador program that I think are really showstoppers I wanna mention.

一位是吉姆·汉考克少将。

One is a gentleman by the name of rear admiral Jim Hancock.

这位先生接受了伊博格因治疗，以缓解他的战争创伤。

This gentleman received ibogaine treatment for his wounds of war.

他曾任海军医疗 Corps 主任，并担任美国海军陆战队的医疗官。

He was the Navy Medical Corps chief and was the medical officer for the United States Marine Corps.

我们的另一位大使是格伦·柯蒂斯将军。

One of our other ambassadors is a gentleman by the name of General Glenn Curtis.

他参加过两次海湾战争。

He served in both Gulf Wars.

他曾在阿富汗服役。

He served in Afghanistan.

他最近一次服役是担任路易斯安那州国民警卫队的指挥官，目前也是我们推动路易斯安那州与德克萨斯州合作开展伊博格因临床试验的关键发言人。

His most recent stint of service was as the commanding general for the Louisiana National Guard, and he is one of our prime spokespeople for legislation that's pending in Louisiana right now to join Texas as a partner in this ibogaine trial.

这太棒了。

That's fantastic.

请说说你原本想说什么吧，我很好奇。

Please say what you were going to because I'm curious.

我都记不起来了。

I don't even remember.

还记得我原本想谈什么吗？

Well, remember what I wanted to talk about.

我想把话题拉回到我们之前讨论的内容上。

I want to get us back on the track that we were talking about.

布莱恩在讨论这种药物的精神层面等方面做得非常好，这非常重要。

Know, Bryan's done a great job to discuss the spiritual aspect of the medicine and what have you, and that's incredibly important.

我完全不是在否认这一点。

Don't get me wrong on that at all.

但真正让我接触到这种药物的，显然是我和马库斯、摩根他们的关系，然后在我深入研究之后，我觉得，如果你真的想成为这个领域的合法代言人，如果你想把自己的声誉拿出来，你就必须接受治疗。

And, but what brought me personally to the medicine, obviously my relationship with Marcus and Morgan and what have you, and then as I studied it, I'm like, if you're really going to be a legitimate spokesperson for this, if you're going to put your reputation out there, you need to be treated.

你必须亲自经历这个治疗过程。我稍后会谈到你，但我想先把这个背景铺垫好，可以吗？

You need to go through the treatment And I'm going get to you at the end of this conversation, but I want to set this up if I may.

在2023年，如果我没记错的话，当时诺兰·威廉姆斯正在主导斯坦福大学负责的30名退伍军人研究，这可以说是早期临床试验的一些初步尝试，目的是积累数据、打下基础，并开始向公众普及相关信息，这就是我做这件事的由来。

And in 2023, if my memory serves me correct, this is the same time that Nolan Williams was heading up the 30 veteran study that Stanford was going to oversee, kind of the early days if you will of some clinical trial type effort to have the data, to have the background, some early day efforts to start educating the public about that is how I do this.

他们招募了30名退伍军人，年龄大概在22到42岁之间，全都患有中度至重度创伤后应激障碍。

They had 30 vets, I think they were between the ages of like 22 and 42, They all had moderate to severe PTSD.

其中一些人还对酒精上瘾。

They were some of them addicted to alcohol.

他们属于典型的退伍军人群体，面临着诸多实际困难。

You know, they were pretty classic veteran population that had some real challenges.

他们被送往斯坦福大学，接受了基线功能磁共振成像检查，随后被送到蒂华纳以南的安贝奥，在那里接受了治疗，整个治疗流程大约持续四天。

They were sent to Stanford and they did baseline functional MRIs and then they were sent down to Ambeo, just south of Tijuana, where they were given the treatment, and then that last I think about a four day treatment protocol.

你抵达后，逐步进入状态。

You go down, work your way in.

周二进行准备工作。

Tuesday you get in preparation.

周二晚上服用药物。

Tuesday evening you get the compound.

星期三是恢复日，星期四进行五次MEODMT治疗，然后回家。

Wednesday is a recovery day, Thursday there's a five MEODMT treatment and then you go home.

他们在治疗五天后返回斯坦福，并进行了随访MRI。

They went back to Stanford after five days, after the treatment and had follow-up MRIs.

我认为他们在30天时做了一次MRI，六个月时又做了一次功能MRI。

I think they did an MRI at thirty days and then a functional MRI at six months.

因此，那里有大量值得分析的数据。

So there was a good piece data there to look at.

结果惊人地好。

Just stunningly good results.

结果显示，有87%的人在六个月后症状消失，两年后依然没有PTSD。

And the results, I think there was eighty seven percent of them who six months now better than two years later, but that have zero PTSD.

成瘾问题的改善程度达到了我们之前提到的百分之八十多。

The addictions were at that level of reduction that we talked about in the high eighty percentiles.

我的意思是，这些数据我们以前都见过，没什么新奇的。

I mean, just we've seen all of this data before, this is nothing new.

但我之所以跟你们分享这一点，是因为我实际上下去遵循了同样的方案。

But the reason I share that with you is that I basically went down and followed the same protocol.

我并没有参与临床试验，我只想接受裸盖菇素治疗。

I wasn't part of the clinical trial, and I only wanted to be treated with ibogaine.

我不想去接受那五次MeO DMT治疗。

I did not want to take the five MeO DMT.

所以我关注的是，我对它在大脑再生方面的效果很感兴趣。

So what I was looking at, and I was interested in this from the brain regenerative side of it.

我过着你们可能见过的最宁静的生活。

I had about as bucolic a life as you've ever had.

我从未被人虐待过，也没有任何可以被称为创伤性影响的事情发生。

I never had anybody mistreat me of anything that you could even get close to calling traumatic effect.

我一生中没有任何创伤。

I had no trauma in my life.

我在德克萨斯州阿比林以西60英里的干旱棉田农场长大，离最近的邮局有16英里，那是德克萨斯州一个美丽、温馨、充满爱的地方。

I grew up on a dry land cotton farm 60 miles from Abilene, Texas, 16 miles from closest place that had a post office in a part of Texas that was just a lovely, wonderful, loving place.

我父母爱我，我知道这一点；我的童子军队长、校长、学区主管和主日学老师——顺便说一句，他们都是同一个人，他开校车，还当足球教练——但我成长的过程毫无创伤，你可以想象。

My mom and dad loved me and I knew it, and my scoutmaster and my principal and my superintendent and my Sunday school class, who by the way were all the same person, and he drove the bus and was a football coach, but I had a non traumatic growing up period as you can imagine.

所以我曾三次遭受严重脑震荡，两次发生在体育活动中，我说的是完全失去意识超过一分钟，那都是严重的脑震荡。

So I was concussed, severely concussed three times, twice in athletic events and I'm talking about knocked out completely for over one minute and those are severe concussions.

两次在体育活动中，一次是卸载护士时，我完全失去了意识。

Two times athletic events, one time unloaded nurses, knocked completely out.

所以我现在知道，当我进入飞行训练后，开始注意到自己难以入睡，而后来我才明白的焦虑，悄然进入了我的生活。

So what I know now is that as I got to pilot training and I started noticing that I was having trouble sleeping and that this thing that I understood later in life was anxiety had crept into my life.

所以我有轻度的焦虑性失眠。

So I had I'm going to put it in the mild category anxiety insomnia.

我进入了一个非常奇特的职业领域——政治，而那里恰恰需要应对这两种状况。

I went into a very odd line of work in politics to have those two kind of things.

我掩饰得非常好。

I masked them rather well.

大多数人并不知道我有这些问题。

Most people didn't know I had that.

我妻子知道。

My wife did.

但除此之外，就连我历年办公室里的高级职员——农业专员、副州长、州长——都不知道我有这个问题，比如每晚只睡三四个小时，有时焦虑到几乎不影响正常功能。

But other than that, even my, you know, senior staff in my offices through the year, agriculture commissioner, lieutenant governor, governor, they did not know that I had this challenge of, you know, maybe sleeping three and a half, four hours a night, being anxious at times to the point of being never dysfunctional.

但从我的角度看，也许政界有些人会说：‘天哪，佩里，你整个职业生涯根本就是功能失调的。’

But from my perspective, probably some people out there in the political world say, Hell, Perry, you were dysfunctional the whole damn time.

你在说什么？

What are you talking about?

不过，这都无关紧要。

Anyway, beside the point.

我接受了治疗。

I had the treatment.

我入院时做了脑部扫描，一周后又做了一次，六个月后还做了一次。

I had the brain scan going in, I had the brain scan a week later and I had the brain scan at six months.

第一次脑部扫描时，他们说：‘看，你这个73岁的人，大脑状况相当不错。’

The first brain scan, they said, Look, your brain looks pretty good for a 73 year old guy.

他说：你知道，你的身体状况其实很不错。

He said, You know, you're actually in pretty good shape.

你的萎缩情况并不严重。

You don't have a lot of atrophy.

你有一些轻度萎缩，但你的大脑看起来相当健康。

You got some mild atrophy, but your brain looks pretty good.

一周后的扫描显示，我大脑前额叶皮层的活动增加了27%。

The week after scan showed a 27 increase in the prefrontal cortex of my brain.

那里是控制你的专注力、注意力和情绪的区域。

That's where your focus, your concentration, your emotions reside.

前额叶皮层的活动增加了27%。

At a 27% increase in that prefrontal cortex activity.

六个月后的扫描，我有一位来自泰勒的挚友，是一位神经外科医生。

My six month scan, I have a dear friend who's a neurosurgeon from Tyler, Doctor.

查理·戈登，一位有四十余年经验的神经外科医生、脊柱专家，看过无数脑部扫描影像。

Charlie Gordon, who is a forty plus year neurosurgeon, spine expert, looked at lots of brain scans.

当我告诉他我要接受一种叫做伊博格因的活性化合物治疗时，他作为一个有礼貌的怀疑者，稍微退缩了一下。

A respectful skeptic of this, when I told him I was going to be treated with this compound called ibogaine, this psychoactive compound, he was recoiled a little bit.

他说，使用这个东西必须非常小心。

He was like, need to be really careful with that.

现在，他从一个有礼貌的怀疑者，转变为认真研究了斯坦福大学进行的临床试验数据，与许多参加过该试验的退伍军人交谈，并与威廉姆斯医生以及其他斯坦福的专家交流。

He has now gone from being respectful, skeptic, to looking at the data from the clinical trial that was done at Stanford, talking to a fairly good number of the veterans that went through that trial, talking to Doctor.

他从一个有礼貌的怀疑者，彻底转变为这种药物的坚定支持者。

Williams, talking to other specialists at Stanford, and he has gone from respectful skeptic to a full on believer in this medicine.

我是说，他完全相信这种药物确实能实现它所宣称的效果。

I mean an absolute supporter that this medicine does what it says it does.

它能治愈人们的成瘾问题。

It heals people of addictions.

它能治愈创伤后应激障碍。

It heals from PTSD.

这种药物确实有效。

This medicine does what it does.

那天我们从机场回来，刚做完六个月的扫描。

We were driving back from the airport that day after the six month scan.

他一看机器出来的结果就看了。

He had looked at it as it came off of the machine.

他说：‘州长，我不会跟您说假话。’

And he said, governor, I'm not gonna blow smoke up your dress.

你的脑萎缩消失了。

Your atrophy is gone.

他说：‘我不知道这到底是怎么回事，但你最初的基线扫描和六个月后的扫描相比，大脑的萎缩明显消失了。’

He said, I have no idea why this has happened, but he said the difference between your initial baseline scan and six months later, clearly the atrophy in your brain is gone.

他说：‘你的大脑看起来像四十岁的人。’

He said, Your brain looks like a 40 year old.

我跟你们分享这个故事的原因之一是，这种药物具有再生作用，而我们目前还不是很理解这一点。

Now, the reason I share that story with you is because number one, that's partly what drives me about this is that there is a regenerative aspect of this medicine that we don't really understand yet.

如果它真能如我们所预期的那样发挥作用——而这正是这些临床试验如此重要的原因——正是因为脑健康中心正在开展的工作以及他们将收集的数据，我坚信这些数据将证明一切。

And if it does what we think it's going to do, and that's the reason these clinical trials are just so stunningly important, that's the reason what the Center for Brain Health and what they're going to be doing and the data that they're going to be collecting, I'm convinced of what this data is going to show.

但对于那些没有物质滥用问题、童年未受创伤、却曾遭受脑震荡的人而言，我们知道这种损伤确实存在，而且其累积效应不容忽视——比如那位伟大的职业橄榄球运动员罗伯特·加拉格尔，他患有严重的慢性创伤性脑病，如今他亲口说，这种医学疗法救了他的命。

But for all of those individuals out there who don't have substance abuse problems, weren't traumatized as a child, but who have been concussed, and we know that that damage is out there and that the cumulative side, Robert Gallery, that great professional football player who had really bad CTE, and he will tell you today this medicine saved his life.

乔·罗根，我想问你，你这一生中大概经历过多少次脑震荡？

My question for you, Joe Rogan, is how many times do think you've been concussed in life?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我完全没概念。

I have no idea.

几十次吧。

Dozens.

是的。

Yeah.

我得回去想想，大部分是在拳击训练中造成的，也有几次来自正式比赛。

I'd have to go back and think about times, most of it was from sparring or a few from fights.

但是

But

但如果我们考虑一下，如果这种累积效应确实存在的话

But if we think about that if there if there is this cumulative effect

是的。

Yeah.

你现在多大年纪了？

Are are you how old are you now?

58岁。

58.

乔·罗根会愿意说，你知道吗？

Would Joe Rogan be willing to say, You know what?

我已经看够了。

I've seen enough.

我相信这种药物确实能如你所说那样发挥作用。

I believe that this medicine does what you say it will do.

对于像我这样的人，它可能对我的长期目标——长寿、健康、积极生活——大有裨益，乔·罗根会去接受伊博格因治疗吗？

And for a person like me, that it could be incredibly helpful to my long term plan of living a long and healthy and engaged life that Joe Rogan would go and be treated with ibogaine?

是的。

Yeah.

我肯定会去做。

I would definitely I would definitely do it.

我对它非常着迷。

I'm very fascinated by it.

太棒了。

Cool.

我的意思是，我从未听说过有人说，我希望自己没做过。

I mean, I've never heard anybody say, I wish I didn't do it.

他提到了治疗后的脑部扫描。

He mentioned his brain scans, post treatment.

几周前，我在一次地球聚会中遇到一位女士，我称她为隆妮，她刚在2025年11月接受过伊博格因治疗。

A couple of weeks ago while I was at that Earth, One Earth gathering, I met a lady who I will call Lonnie, and she had just returned from an ibogaine treatment in November '25.

她讲述了自己早年遭受父亲严重身体虐待的经历，而她的父亲对奥施康定上瘾。

She relayed an early life of just, ungodly physical abuse by her father who was addicted to OxyContin.

你知道，我们一开始聊的是美国阿片类药物成瘾危机的现实情况。

You know, we began this conversation about the realities of the opioid epidemic in America.

虽然死亡是最严重的后果，据统计已有约七十万美国人因此丧生，但每个死亡案例背后都存在着更广泛而深重的悲剧。

While death is the most terminal outcome as measured out about seven hundred thousand Americans, there is a much broader web of hardcore travesty that exists around each of those death outcomes.

Lonnie 就经历了这一切。

And Lonnie experienced that.

她曾多次因父亲的暴力而遭受脑震荡。

She had multiple concussions from her own father.

和许多经历过此类创伤的人一样，她也染上了药物成瘾。

Like many individuals who experience trauma of this nature, she developed her own drug addiction.

她多次进出监狱。

She was in and out of jail.

她曾经有一段时间无家可归。

She was homeless at a different point in time.

但她最终成功康复了。

She managed to get recovered.

她在2018年遭受了一次相当严重的独立创伤性脑损伤。

She had a separate traumatic brain injury that was fairly severe in 2018.

随后，她被诊断出患有我所认为的早发性帕金森病，也就是50岁之前确诊的帕金森病。

And then she was diagnosed with what I believe is called young onset Parkinson's, Parkinson's diagnosis that is pre age 50.

她的帕金森病已经进展到手部震颤严重到无法写字的程度。

Her Parkinson's had progressed to the point to where she could not write because of the tremulousness in her hands.

所以，当我两周前见到她时，她自我介绍时的外表和神情完全像一个健康的人。

So when I saw her two weeks ago and she introduced herself, she had all of the appearance and affect of a perfectly healthy human being.

只有当我们坐下来，她解释了她的经历和当前状况后，才提到了伊博格因的事。

It was only after we sat down and she explained what her experience had been and where she was at now that the ibogaine disclosure was made.

她的手和我的一样平静，她说这已经持续了大约三个月，她能够恢复正常生活，而且感觉自己的心智恢复了。

Her hand was just as calm as mine, and she said that it had been essentially three months and that she had been able to resume a normal life and that her mind felt restored.

根据我们第一次采访你们后收到的反馈，我必须非常谨慎。

Now based on the responses we got after our first interview with you, I want to be very careful here.

这确实处于科学的前沿，对于这种疗法能治疗的帕金森病类型，我们仍有许多未知。

This is truly the edge of science and there is much unknown about the variety of Parkinson's that this can treat.

有一些说法认为，对于那些具有遗传易感性的人，它比因环境暴露而患上帕金森病的人效果更好。

There are some suggestions that it is better for those who have a genetic predisposition for the disease than it is for those who contract Parkinson's as the result of environmental exposure.

伊博格因似乎对因接触环境毒素而引发的帕金森病没有影响。

Ibogaine does not appear to have any impact on Parkinson's developed as a result of exposure to environmental toxin.

你患病时的阶段似乎也至关重要。

The stage of the disease at which you catch it also appears to make a big difference.

越早越好。

The earlier, the better.

也有人指出，伊博格因并不能治愈帕金森病。

It has also been asserted that ibogaine does not cure Parkinson's.

它的作用是减缓疾病进展，并为一些人创造一个功能恢复的广阔窗口期，从而显著提升生活质量。

What it does is slows disease progression and creates for some, a broad window of opportunity for the restoration of function that can dramatically improve the quality of life.

现在我只提供了关于它对个体影响和疗效的一些限定条件，但请想想我们刚才说的内容。

Now I'm just given a number of qualifiers about its impact and efficacy on one individual, but think about what we just said here.

这位女性被诊断为早发性帕金森病。

This is a woman who was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson's.

她因双手颤抖而失去了写字的能力。

She had lost the ability to write because of the tremulousness in her hands.

她接受治疗四个月后，已经恢复了全部正常生活，功能完全恢复。

She's four months out from a treatment, and she's been able to resume her full normal life with a complete restoration of function.

如果我们能在九个月内推出新冠疫苗，那么凭借德克萨斯州及其他我们稍后将讨论的各州的集中努力，我们完全可以在三年或更短时间内实现我们这个时代的目标——开发出一种能完全融入美国医疗系统的伊博格因药物。

If we could get a COVID vaccine out in nine months, There is no reason why, with the focused effort of Texas and the other states we'll discuss here momentarily, that we cannot achieve the moonshot of our time within three years or less, and that is the completion of an ibogaine medication that can be fully integrated into The U.

S.

S.

医疗体系，并像目前通过医疗系统广泛使用的、每名患者花费70万美元的无效阿片类药物治疗那样，使其普遍可及——这些治疗由Indivior公司赞助，而该公司正是我们当前所依赖的、失败率高达75%的各类药物的主要制药开发商。

Health care system and made just as universally available as every ineffective opioid based treatment that we currently deploy through the medical system at a cost of $700,000 per patient, sponsored by Indivior, which is one of the chief pharmaceutical developers of everything that we have that fails seventy five percent of the time.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果我们能做到，那将非常了不起。

I mean, if we could do it, it would be pretty extraordinary.

而且如果真的实现了，我确实相信，这将彻底改变社会——当人们毫无希望、一无所有时。

And if it is done, I really do believe that it would have a complete changing of society when people have no hope and there's nothing.

然后突然间，出现了一种方法，你只需做一次，有效率就达到百分之八十五。

And then all of a sudden, there's something that comes along that you do it once and it's an eighty five percent effective rate.

做两次，有效率就高达百分之九十几。

And you do it twice and it's in the high nineties.

我的意思是，改变啊，想想有多少人正在为某些问题挣扎，无论是酗酒、肥胖，还是其他什么问题。

I mean, change I mean, how many people are out there struggling with something, whether it's alcoholism, whether it's obesity, whether it's you know, that's another thing.

比如，有些人用食物来让自己平静下来。

Like, there's there's people that are calming themselves with food.

对吧？

Right?

这是一种逃避。

And it's masking.

这可能是糖成瘾，你不觉得吗？

That's probably a sugar addiction, don't you think?

我的意思是，从...

I mean, from the standpoint of