#2479 - 鲍勃·拉扎尔与路易吉·文迪泰利

比如，冶金学家不跟推进专家交流，推进专家也不跟生物专家交流。

Like, the metallurgists weren't talking to the propulsions people, who weren't talking to if there were biologics experts.

比如，每个人

Like, everybody

都很令人沮丧。

was frustrating.

非常令人沮丧，因为我不太记得具体是从哪里开始的。

Super frustrating because I I think I I don't remember exactly where that started.

这都是四十年前的事了，但我记得是从座椅开始的。

Again, it's forty years ago, but I think it started with the seats.

不，是从飞行器的外壳开始的，因为所有东西看起来都像是用同一种材料制成的。

No, it started with the actual skin of the craft because everything looked like it was made from the same material.

我想了解一些关于飞行器外壳和结构的信息。

And I wanted some information about the skin, the superstructure of the craft.

他们说：不行，这是机密。

And they said, No, that's restricted.

我们需要一个理由让你知道，我只是想确认所有东西是否都是完全相同的材料，以及我所说的飞船里的座椅。

We need a reason for you to I just want to see if everything is exactly the same material and what I call the seats in the craft.

我仍然不确定那是不是座椅，但可能是。

I still don't know if they're the seats but they might be.

如果它们实际上是别的东西，我觉得会特别搞笑。

I think it'd be hilarious if they were actually something else.

但我想要一些关于它们的信息，而那也是受限信息。

But I wanted some information on those and that was restricted information too.

还有其他团队在研究这些。

There were other groups working on that.

所以他们把事情划分得太过隔离，任何团队之间都没有信息交流。

So they compartmentalized stuff so much there was no exchange of information between any groups.

我的意思是，你只能提交书面回复，由你的主管——在我这里就是丹尼斯——转交，他们必须批准，然后你会收到对方团队两三行的回复。

I mean you could submit a written response that your supervisor, in my case Dennis, would have to carry over and they would have to approve and you'd get a two or three line response from the other group.

但这根本不是科学工作的正常方式。

It's just that's not how science works.

科学依赖于信息的自由交流，而他们却因安全措施而自我束缚。

Science works on the free exchange of information and they were just killing themselves with security.

这真的让人非常沮丧。

And it it was really frustrating.

这简直令人极度沮丧。

It was terribly frustrating.

那么，这是不是因为安全人员过于专注于最高级别的保密，而根本不理解科学需要协作？

So was this a function of security people, people that are concentrating on top top security that don't truly understand how collaborative science works?

是的。

Yeah.

问题就出在这里。

That's it right there.

你不能就此止步。

You can't stop right there.

他们根本不知道这究竟是怎么运作的。

They they had no idea how that works.

因为有理由认为，无论那种东西是由什么制成的，它都可能以某种方式与推进系统及其内部的控制系统相互作用，这种材料必须是特别独特的。

Because it stands to reason that whatever that thing was made out of probably in some way interacts with the propulsion system and whatever controls that are in it that this material has to be particularly unique.

没错。

Exactly.

这正是我的观点。

That's exactly my point.

我怀疑这种材料是一种导电体。

And I suspected the material was an electric.

你知道什么是导电体吗？

You know what an electric is?

不知道。

No.

好吧。

Okay.

你知道，像永磁体这样的东西，它就是一个磁体。

You know, like a magnet a permanent magnet is like you know, it's a magnet.

它永远都是一个磁体。

Forever it's a magnet.

它具有磁场。

It has a magnetic field.

电介质是一种具有永久静电场的材料，一种静态电场。

An electret is a material that has a permanent static field to it, a static electric field to it.

我强烈怀疑这艘飞行器是由电介质制成的，但并不是因为——再次说明，那是材料科学专家的领域，我不被允许将这一点与推进系统以及推进系统如何与放大器或发射器相互作用联系起来，而我只是得不到我需要的信息。

And I strongly suspected that the craft was made out of an electric and I was not because again, that's the material science guys, I was not allowed to connect that to but so important to connect it to the propulsion system and how the propulsion system interacts with the amplifier or the emitters and I just I wasn't allowed, you know, the information I needed.

所以，我不知道。

So it was I don't know.

这实际上是自相矛盾的。

It it it was self defeating is what it was.

他们似乎把它当成战斗机或汽车来对待。

It seems like they were treating it like a fighter jet or automobile.

比如在汽车里，你有汽车的外壳。

Like, in an automobile, you have the outer area, the shell of the car.

你有车门、车身面板、引擎盖、车顶，所有这些部件都是金属的，但你还拥有推进系统，包括发动机、变速箱、轮胎、轮毂和悬挂系统。

You have the doors, the skins, the hood, the roof, all that stuff, which is met but then you have the propulsion system, which is the engine and the transmission and the tires and the wheels and the suspension.

但它们彼此之间并没有连接。

But they're all not connected.

它们只是通过螺栓固定在一起，但功能各不相同。

They're connected because they're bolted together, but they have different functions.

对。

Right.

我认为，至少从你这里理解到的概念是，这个装置作为一个整体协同工作。

I think the idea or the concept, at least as as I'm gathering from you, is that this thing all worked as a cohesive unit.

对。

Right.

各个子系统之间没有任何物理连接。

With no physical connection between, you know, between the subsystems.

而且所有部件都是由同一种材料制成的。

And all of it made out of the same material.

至少在外观上。

At least on the outside.

至少在外观上。

At least on the outside.

它们都是由同一种材料制成的。

They're all made of the same material.

其他的飞行器也都配备了相同的动力系统。

And the other crafts all had the same power plant in them.

这就让人联想到，比如通用汽车的工厂，生产搭载雪佛兰350发动机的汽车，并推出十几种不同车型。

So that brings to mind, you know, like a like a GM plant that makes a car with a Chevy three fifty and makes, you know, a dozen different models to it.

对。

Right.

所以你会想，会不会有个工厂在制造这些东西？

So that makes you think about, boy, is there a factory making these things?

你知道，你的大脑可能会天马行空，但我尽量只聚焦在技术本身。

And, you know, your brain can just wander off in directions, but I tried to stick with just the technology.

你知道那些冶金学家是谁吗？

Did you know who the metallurgists were?

那些负责

The people that were

我见过他们。

I saw them.

你知道，我认识他们。

You know, I know them.

我和巴里会去食堂。

And Barry we'd go to the lunchroom.

巴里会指给他们看。

Barry would point them out.

你知道的？

You know?

你根本不能和他们交流吗？

And you weren't allowed to communicate with them at all?

哦，绝对不行。

Oh, hell no.

你有一个实验搭档，在我这里就是巴里，你可以和你的实验搭档交谈，但不能和其他任何小组交流。

You have a a lab partner, which my in in my case was Barry, and you're you have you're allowed to talk to your lab partner, but you can't talk to any other group.

任何沟通都必须通过书面申请，提交给你的主管，由他转交给他们，再由他们反馈回来，如此往复。

That has to go through a written request has to go to your supervisor, and he'll bring it over to them, and they'll bring it back, and so on and so forth.

但确实，这太荒谬了，它严重拖慢了你可能取得的任何进展。

But yeah, that's ridiculous that that it slows down any progress you might be making.

这就是为什么他们可能几十年都停滞不前。

Which is why they were probably stalled out for decades.

是的。

Yeah.

你有没有明确地向他们表达过，至少你推测过，这一切可能都有关联，金属的工作方式中存在某种联系？

Did you ever expressly communicate to them that you you theorized at least that this all could be connected, that there's there's something about the way the metal works.

哦，我们所有人都知道这一点。

Oh, we all knew that.

我们都知道，因为我们经常收到其他团队的请求。

We all knew that because we'd get requests from other, you know, from other groups.

你能看出他们和我们一样绝望，都在与这个系统抗争。

And you could tell they're desperate just like we are and and fighting against the system.

你们会收到什么样的请求？

What kind of request would you get?

就是我们发现的那些问题，比如，能量究竟被转移到哪里了？

Just exactly what we found out, you know, what Where is the energy being transferred here?

如果反应堆启动，周围是否存在场？还是这个场只是被发射器吸收了？你可以直接触摸反应堆本身，诸如此类的小细节。

If the reactor fires up, is there a field present around it or is the field just absorbed into the emitter and you can touch the reactor itself and just little things like that.

实际上，这一点很重要。

And actually that was an important thing.

当反应堆运行时，发射器是否被完美调谐，以将所有能量从反应堆中移除并从底部释放出去？

When the reactor is operating, is it perfectly tuned the emitter to where it removes all the energy from the reactor and pushes it out the bottom?

这个问题的答案是否定的。

Answer to that was no.

我记得这是其中一个团队提出的具体请求。

I remember that as a specific request from one of the groups.

冶金团队是我们最想听取意见的团队。

The metallurgy group is the one that we really wanted to hear from.

有些团队我甚至不知道他们具体是做什么的。

Some of the group I don't even know what some of the other groups were.

一共有多少个团队？

How many groups were there?

我不知道。

I don't know.

那里总共有22个人，包括我自己。

There are only 22 people there total, including myself.

所以

So

我想请你告诉乔一件事，我也很感兴趣，因为我造过一艘飞行器，那就是波导如何与舱顶内部配合以及它是如何融合的。

I would like for you to tell Joe, one of the things that also interested me because I built a craft is how the waveguide worked with the ceiling in the interior and how it blended.

如果你能解释一下，那里没有伸缩结构。

If you can explain there was no telescopic.

嗯，

Well,

这就是我们想跟冶金学家们交谈的原因。

this is why we wanted to talk to the metallurgist people.

位于飞行器底部的反应堆上面有一个小圆顶，还有一根看起来略微像管道的东西。

The reactor that sits on the bottom of the craft has a little dome over it and there's something that looks like a pipe that's slight.

你可以把它抬起来取出反应堆，放入反应堆后再放下去。

You can lift it up and take the reactor out, put the reactor in and lift it down.

但你知道老式对讲机上的天线是怎么工作的吗？

But you know like an antenna works on an old walkie talkie?

是的。

Mhmm.

它有不同的段落。

It has different sections.

就在那儿。

There it is.

这是从视频里看到的。

There's from the video.

就在那儿

There it

是。

is.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以收缩管道，但没有分段，它也不会变得更粗。

You can retract the pipe but there's no sections and it doesn't get any thicker.

它只是变得更小，如果你看下面悬挂的发射器，它们会转动，而不会弯曲。

It just becomes smaller and if you look underneath where the emitters hang down, they turn and it doesn't buckle.

这是一种神奇的材料。

It's a magical material.

这种工艺的基础其实就是它所使用的材料。

This is the basis of the craft is really the material that it's made of.

它的运作方式太神奇了。

Amazing the way it works.

它可以被压缩进更小的体积，但完全不会发生变化。

It can push it into a smaller volume and it doesn't change at all.

它在物理上并不会变大。

It doesn't it doesn't get bigger physically.

我真不知道该怎么形容它。

It's I don't really know how to describe it.

所以你上下抬升管道，但它并没有移动？

So you're lifting the pipe up and down but it's not going anywhere?

你看，如果你有一根大管道，嗯。

Look, if you had a big pipe Mhmm.

当你把它挤压在一起时，它必须变粗。

And you push it together, it has to get thicker.

对。

Right.

因为材料必须有个地方去。

Because the material has to go somewhere.

但这根管道不会。

This doesn't.

明白吗？

Okay?

它的尺寸始终保持不变。

It stays in exactly the same dimensions.

它只是变小了。

It just becomes smaller.

怎么做到的？

How?

嗯，

Well

对。

yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你没法和冶金专家沟通，所以你完全不知道。

Because you couldn't talk to the metallurgist, so you have no idea.

是的。

Yeah.

但那些人知道怎么做。

But those guys knew how.

他们确实知道怎么做。

They did know how.

嗯，他们知道他们做到了。

I well Well, they know it did it.

他们知道他们做到了，这就是他们的工作。

They know it they know it did it and that's their job.

所以我猜他们掌握的信息比我多。

So I imagine they have more information than I did.

但这真的很有趣。

But that was fascinating.

确实如此。

It really was.

还有那些承载发射器的波导，它们会下降，发射器可以转动和弯曲，管道也会弯曲，但里面没有任何变化。

And the the waveguides that hold the emitters, they come down and the emitters can turn and bend and the pipes bend and nothing changes in them.

而且没有任何电线或其他装置让管道弯曲。

And there's no wires or anything to make the pipe bend.

我正试着把它和某样东西联系起来，但想不出能联系什么。

I'm I'm trying to relate it to something, but I can't think of anything to relate it to.

你提到的一点我也觉得非常有趣，那就是没有任何接缝。

Well, one thing that you said that I I also thought was fascinating, there's no seams.

所以看起来一切都像是3D打印出来的。

So everything looks like it's three d printing.

没错，没错。

Again, right.

这归结于材料本身。

It comes down to the material.

当时，3D打印机还不存在。

Which at the time, three d printers weren't real.

对吧？

Right?

它们

They

是的。

Yeah.

当时这真的让我很困惑。

At the time, that really confused me.

我说，他们是怎么建造这个的？

I said, how did they build this?

一定是用蜡之类的东西做的，然后熔化了，因为你不可能在没有接缝的情况下建造任何东西。

It must have been built out of wax or something and then melted, because you can't build anything without seams.

然后3D打印出现了，你可以从底层一层一层地构建东西。

And then three d printing came into existence and you could build stuff from layers up.

这就说得通了。

That made sense.

知道。

Know.

某种3D打印机，或者它们是通过某种方式生长出来的，当然不是晶体方式，但我不知道它是怎么制造出来的。

Some sort of three d printer or they grew it in some of course it's not a crystalline fashion but I I don't know how that was fabricated.

但它制造的方式与我们任何东西都不同。

But it was fabricated different than anything that we have.

我甚至不认为它是用3D打印出来的。

I don't even think it was three d printed.

那你有没有任何线索或理解这种金属是什么吗？

And so you never got any inkling or any understanding of what the metal was?

它是由什么类型的合金组成的？

What what what kind of an alloy would it consisted of?

我只能说它摸起来是凉的，因为当我摸它的时候，但我说不清它是陶瓷还是金属，因为它摸起来是凉的。

All I can say it was cold to the touch because the you know, when I when I touched it, but I can't say it was a if it was a ceramic or I'd say it was metal because it was cold.

因为它看起来像金属。

Because it looks like metal.

而且这确实是。

And this is Yeah.

它看起来像金属。

It looks like metal.

这是佩里版本的设计。

Does that this is the designs by Perry version of it.

这看起来有多像？

Does that how much does that look like?

这是100%。

It's a 100%.

就是这样。

That's it.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是

That's

第一个波纹应该是黑色的。

that's have the the first ripple supposed to be black.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

看到了吗？

See?

是的。

Yeah.

所以路易吉已经检查过这个了。

So Luigi has gone over this

我的意思是，我建造了这个东西。

I mean, I built this thing.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

这里有一个绝缘环在

The There's an insulator ring in the

如果你能展示其中一张图片，让我们看看它在电影中的样子。

show what it looks like in the film, if you could show one of the images.

我当时正在拖拖车，然后我……

I don't I was pulling off the trailer, and I

他们可能一直隐瞒着这个事实，对吧？

don't they might not they've been holding that back for

天啊，是的。

Oh my Yeah.

在拖车上，有几组

On the trailer, there's a couple

镜头。

shots.

我明白了。

I got it.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它周围有一个环。

There's there's a ring around it.

我们测量了飞行器上的电压，发现它带有高电压。

And we measured the voltage on the craft, and there was a a high voltage on it.

在那个环的上方有

And above that ring, there is

这不是一个好镜头。

This is a not a good shot.

可能有一个，它是

There's probably a It's

很快，马修。

very quick, Matthew.

这是原始预告片。

This is the original trailer.

这是新的预告片，实际上会的。

It's the new trailer that would actually yeah.

就是那个。

That one there.

你马上就能看到它就在那里。

And you'll get to see it right there.

实际上，就在这一段之后，不，是在这一段之前，我认为你会看到这艘飞行器。

Actually right after this, it's actually before this, I believe you're going to see the craft.

如果你看到那里有一条黑色的线，对，就像一条黑线。

And if you see there's a black, right, there's like a black line.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是第一个不是金属材质的波纹。

It's the first ripple that's actually not metal.

是的。

Yeah.

我们称那个为是的。

We call that the yeah.

就在那儿。

There it is.

拍得真好。

That's a good shot.

我们称它为绝缘环，因为它的下方始终有高压存在于飞行器上，而上方则没有。

We call it we call that the insulator ring because below that, there's a high voltage present on the craft all the time, and above that, there isn't.

我想象你的生活分为两个完全不同的阶段。

I would imagine that your life has, like, two completely different chapters.

一个是之前，一个是之后。

It's before this and after this.

一旦你看到了它，你余生的全部都将变得截然不同。

Whereas, like, once you see it, the whole rest of your life is now going to be very different.

而你，你在那里待了多久？你在那里工作了多久？

And you are you were in in its presence for how long did you work there for?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许六个月左右。

Maybe six months or so.

所以这六个月里，你一直待在它旁边，我猜它一定占据了你每天24小时的思绪。

So for six months, you're around this thing, and I would imagine it has to occupy your thoughts twenty four hours a day.

当时确实如此。

Well, at the time, it did for sure.

实际上，人生分为三个阶段。

It's actually three stages to the life.

分别是之前、期间和之后。

It's before it, during, and after it.

之前就是我的普通生活。

Before it was just my life.

期间是它发生的时候，而之后的部分，我几乎在努力忽略它，你知道的，只是继续生活下去。

During was when it happened, and then the after part of my life is almost trying to dismiss it, you know, to just go on.

是的。

Yeah.

你很长一段时间都没有谈论过这件事。

You didn't talk about it for a long time.

我的意思是，你做过乔治·纳普的采访。

I mean, you did the George Knapp interviews.

你稍微提到过一些。

You talked about it a little.

你制作了一些视频，解释了事情的经过和运作方式。

You made some videos explaining things and how things worked.

不。

No.

我不太喜欢公众关注，也不太喜欢接受采访，这一点你大概也知道。

I don't I don't really like public attention, and, I don't really like doing interviews, as you probably know.

你知道的？

And you know?

但我知道有些人很享受这种事，而你知道，我觉得自己有幸参与了这个项目，但它却让我产生了无法满足的好奇心——天啊，我真想知道它现在去哪儿了。

But I know there's people that thrive on that stuff, but, you know, I felt privileged to be part of the project but it left me with an insatiable appetite, Oh my God, I want to know where it's gone.

即使在80年代我还在那里的时候，他们就已经在谈论要把这个项目转移了。

Even when I was there in the 80s, they were talking about moving the project at that time.

所以我特别想知道，它还在那儿吗？

So dying to know is it still there?

它有没有被迁走？

Has it moved on?

他们有没有把它拆分，转移到其他地方？

Did they split it up and move it to other places?

是的。

Yeah.

我记得巴里曾提到过，要把项目搬到南太平洋的夸贾林环礁之类的地方，但据说费用太高，他们没法实现，但他们希望把它远离所有人，而且非常讨厌它就在内华达州公路旁，紧挨着51区南边。

I remember Barry talking about moving it to the South Pacific like in Kwajalein or something, but they said the expenses were so great they couldn't do that, but they wanted it away from everybody and they hated the fact that it was right alongside the highway in Nevada, you know, South of Area 51.

但当时那是他们能找到的最好的、也是最便宜的地点。

But that's the best place they had at the time and the most affordable.

当然了，现在预算这么紧，谁知道它在哪呢？

And, of course, now with, you know, budgets being so tight, who knows where it is?

不过，谁说这个项目的预算真的紧张呢？

Who knows if budgets are tight for this, though?

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

那确实是真的。

That that's true.

那确实是真的。

That's true.

我的意思是，他们说过，不管花多大代价，都要解决这个问题。

I mean, they did say at whatever expense, figure this out.

是的。

Yeah.

他们是认真的。

They were serious about that.

我们其实并不关心它是什么。

We don't really care what it was.

就像最初的阿波罗计划。

So like the original Apollo program.

你知道，在阿波罗计划时代，如果他们需要零件，而有人通过UPS或邮寄订购了东西，他们有权拦截那些发给别人的包裹，把东西拿走，只要他们需要。

You know, back in the Apollo program, if they needed parts and if somebody had something ordered UPS or through the mail or whatever, they had the authority to stop that shipment to that other person and take their stuff if they needed it.

而且，你知道，他们当时有无限的预算。

And, you know, they had an unlimited budget.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果你这样工作，你几乎能做成任何事。

I mean, if you're working like that, you could do anything.

至少是用当今技术目前能做到的任何事。

And Or at least anything that's currently possible with today's technology.

没错。

There you go.

问题就在这里，因为他们处理的是1989年用美国技术根本无法从零建造的东西。

Which therein lies the problem is that they're dealing with something that's not possible with like, you couldn't build it from scratch with American technology in 1989.

不。

No.

但那正是他们想做的。

But that's what they wanted to do.

现在仔细想想，我不确定。

And really thinking about that now, I'm not sure.

我不确定这些家伙是否应该被允许这么做。

I'm not exactly sure these guys should be allowed to do that.

这是一项非常强大的技术，而世界已经发生了巨大变化。

This is really powerful technology, and the world has really changed.

我的意思是，现在有很多疯狂的人在做各种事，荒谬的信息以光速在人群中传播，你知道的，我不确定。

I mean, we have a lot of crazy people doing stuff now and nonsense transmits through the population at the speed of light and, you know, I don't know.

这可能是一种非常强大的、能征服世界的科技。

This can be a very powerful world conquering technology.

而且你看，四十年来，我想我以前也说过，四十年来，所有掌控这些信息的人都一致同意保持沉默。

And look, for forty years, I think I've said this before, for forty years, all the people in control of this information have all agreed to keep it quiet.

这些人可不是傻子。

And these aren't idiots.

这四十年来，他们都不是傻子。

These aren't idiots for forty years.

有一连串的人全都达成共识：不，我们什么也不说。

You have a line of people that all have agreed, No, let's not say anything.

不，我们什么也不说。

No, let's not say anything.

不，我们什么也不说。

No, let's not say anything.

这其中一定有原因。

There has to be a reason why.

如果他们都同意这么做，也许我才是那个混蛋。

And if they all agreed to that, maybe I'm the asshole.

不是的。

No.

真的。

Really.

也许他们才是对的。

Maybe they're right.

还有

And

如果你当初一直为他们工作的话，说不定你早就想明白这一点了。

Maybe you would have figured that out if you kept working for them.

对。

Yeah.

我也不确定。

I don't know.

但我越来越觉得是我犯了错。

But I'm increasingly thinking I'm the one that made the mistake.

也许这件事本就应该保密。

Maybe this is supposed to be just kept quiet.

是的。

Yeah.

但这说不通，因为我认为，如果一小群人掌握着能够改变我们对自身处境认知的信息，这从来都不是健康的。

But that doesn't ring true because I don't think it's ever healthy if small groups of individuals have information that would change our understanding of where we are.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

There's that.

确实如此。

There's that.

我认为他们不配拥有这些信息。

It's I don't think they I don't think they deserve it.

我认为这不对。

I don't think it's right.

我觉得这毫无意义。

I don't think it makes any sense.

我认为你们之间有某种关系。

I think you have a relationship.

但你真的好好想想。

But really think about it.

如果这是一件非常重大的事情呢？

What if it's something that's really dramatic?

那又怎样？

Like, so?

你认为会是什么样子呢？

What what do you think would be like

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许我的意思是，如果这是……我不是说这一定就是如此。

May maybe I mean, what if it's I'm not saying this is what it is.

但我的意思是，如果就像我们把牛养在野外，只喂它们草，然后它们就只是用来当食物呢？

But, I mean, what if it's like you know, like we like we raise cows out in a field and just feed them grass and they're just gonna be food.

如果事情是那样的呢？

What if it's something like that?

如果我们只是某种生物群体，生来就是为了被以某种方式消耗呢？

What if we're just like, you know, a a population of creatures that are just to be consumed in some way?

我不确定我们是否会被消耗，但我确实认为我们

I don't know if we're to be consumed, but I do think we are

不是被物理地吃掉那种消耗，我的意思是我觉得

Not physically consumed like eaten, but I mean I think

我们有任务。

we have a task.

随着时间推移，我越来越确信我们是被设计出来的。

And I'm more and more convinced as time goes on that we were engineered.

被设计出来的。

Engineered.

我不认为我们是像其他动物那样通过正常的进化过程出现的。

I don't think we came about as a normal evolutionary process like all the other animals.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意这一点。

I I agree with that.

我也非常同意这一点。

I I really agree with that too.

对。

Yeah.

有很多人都这么认为。

There's a lot of people that think that.

从客观角度来看，这确实说不通。

It just doesn't make sense objectively.

我的意思是，如果不显得像个怪人或迷信阴谋论的人，只要你看看地球上其他的生物，为什么唯独人类能如此独特地改造环境、实现远距离即时沟通，而且在大多数居住地都离不开衣物和庇护所？

I mean, without seeming like a kook or someone who buys into conspiracy theories, if you just look at all the other biology on Earth, why is one so uniquely able to manipulate its environment, communicate instantaneously at distance, do can't really even exist in its environment in most places that it lives without clothes and shelter.

我们是一种很怪异的物种。

We're a weird animal.

我们真的非常特殊。

We're we're very strange.

就比如，我们通过空调、电力、电子设备、飞行器和出行技术彻底掌控了环境，这完全不像是我们以常规方式适应了环境的结果。

Like, we don't seem to have normally adapted to our environment with the way we've completely controlled our environment with air conditioning and electricity and electronics and flight and travel.

我们的发展远超所有其他演化出的物种，其他所有物种——无论捕食者还是猎物，植食性还是肉食性动物——都能完美融入各自的生态系统，和谐共存。

We're so beyond everything else that evolved, whereas every other animal, predator or prey, plant eater or meat eater, all seems to cohesively exist inside of its ecosystem.

然后我们人类就出现了，说真的就是这样。

And then you have us, which is like Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们几乎就像一个入侵物种。

Almost like an invasive species.

入侵物种会破坏生态系统，因为它们本就不属于那片土地。

Like, species destroy ecosystems, like because they don't belong there.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯，这正是我们所做的。

Well, that's kind of what we do.

比如，我们把海洋里的鱼都捕光了。

Like, we suck all the fish out of the ocean.

我们用科技污染了河流。

We pollute the rivers with our technology.

我们通过水力压裂和钻探破坏了地下水系统。

We, you know, mess up underground water systems with fracking and drill.

在很多方面，我们都像一种入侵物种。

We we're like an invasive species in a lot of ways.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们真的很奇怪。

We're really weird.

我完全同意。

I can't argue with that at all.

是的。

Yeah.

这个投石机东西。

This timbuchet thing.

所以蒂姆·伯切特最近一直在谈论这个，但他不能说，因为这是机密，不过他说，如果你看到我所看到的东西，而且这些东西一旦泄露，你会彻夜难眠。

So Tim Birchette has recently been talking about this and that he can't talk about it because it's classified, but he said you'd be up at night with the things that I've seen if the things that I've seen have released.

对。

Yeah.

他说我们只需要彻底公开一切。

He said we just needed to close disclose it all.

我受够了。

I'm sick of it.

哦，好吧，我被通报过，我可以告诉你这一点。

Oh, well, I was briefed, and I will tell you this.

我两周前被通报了一个问题，或者说是一周前，如果他们听到了我所听到的一切，这个国家恐怕会陷入混乱。

I was briefed last week on an issue or, excuse me, two weeks ago, and it would have set the earth on this country would have come unglued, I think if they would have heard all that I heard.

这正是我之前提到的。

Well, this is what I was talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你知道，这可不是有一群太空兄弟下来喊着：‘看，我们发现了什么！’

If you know, it's not like there's a bunch of space brothers coming down going, oh, look what we discovered.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我这里有一些信息，但要是情况并非如此呢？

Here, I have some information and, you know, what if it's not that?

要是所有信息都是假的呢？

What if all the information is bad?

那什么会是坏的呢？

Well, what would be bad?

比如，你有没有想过这个问题？

Like, have you ever thought about this?

试着去推演一下它的自然结果？

Tried to, like, play it out to its natural conclusion?

你觉得可能有哪些糟糕的情景？

Like, what do you think the scenarios could be that's bad?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我们正在看的一切。

Everything that we're we're look.

我们认为自己处于食物链的顶端。

We view ourselves at the top of the food chain.

如果我们根本没那么高呢？

What if we're not anywhere near there?

我不认为我们是。

I don't think we are.

好吧。

Okay.

如果我们只是食物呢？

What if we're just consumables?

我不知道，比如黑猩猩算不算食物。

Well, I don't know if, like, chimpanzees are consumables.

对吧？

Right?

它们也不是食物链的顶端。

They're not at the top of the food chain either.

对吧？

Right?

但是

But

不。

No.

但我认为它们比我们低得多。

But there's I I would consider them substantially lower than we are.

对。

Right.

比如我那位已故的好朋友约翰·利尔，他有很多疯狂的想法，他经常过来告诉我们，说月球上有个吸魂的东西。

Like, my my good friend that died, John Lear, who had a bunch of crazy thoughts, I mean, he used to come over and tell us that, you know, on the moon, there was a soul sucker.

当他这么做的时候。

And when you he did.

他说：你最好把那瓶酒给我。

He said this, you better give me that bottle.

在你解释之前，再喝一口。

Have another drink before you explain

这个。

this one.

天啊。

Oh, boy.

灵魂吸食者。

A soul sucker.

约翰·利尔是个古怪的人。

John Lear was a eccentric individual.

我很遗憾从未见过他。

I'm kinda sad I never met him.

老天，他总是提供证据。

Man, he he would Supporting evidence.

他当时是

He was

什么？

a What?

特伦斯·麦肯纳谈论月球

Terrence McKenna talking about the moon

当一个灵魂捕手？

being a soul catcher?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

他还给我看过一些月球上巨大天线的照片。

And he'd give me pictures of these giant antennas on the moon.

事实上，我给你讲个故事。

And, in fact, I'll tell you a story.

你知道，他是一位杰出的飞行员，拥有许多世界纪录，属于莱尔家族——他父亲发明了自动驾驶仪、八轨磁带等等，但约翰·莱尔是个难以驾驭的人。

He, you know, he was an accomplished pilot, had many world records and things of that, you know, part of the Lear family that his father invented autopilot, the eight track tape, all kinds of stuff and but he John Lear was a loose cannon.

当时，他经常从拉斯维加斯起飞，往返驾驶那些巨大的1011型飞机。

At the time, he'd fly from Las Vegas and, you know, shuttle l 10 elevens which are giant planes back and forth.

他会说，你知道的，有点孤单。

And he'd say, know, be kinda lonely.

他会说，嘿。

He goes, hey.

你今晚想去明尼阿波利斯吗？

You wanna go to Minneapolis tonight?

他会晚上九点给我打电话，说，嗯，不去。

He'd call me, like, at 09:00 at night and say, well, no.

不太想去。

Not really.

来吧。

Come on.

来吧。

Come on.

和我一起飞吧。

Fly with me.

他说，穿上西装，去某个地方。

He said, just put on a suit and come to so and so.

我会去麦卡伦机场，然后过去。

And I'd go to McCarran Airport and go there.

而且，是的，我会告诉所有人你是联邦航空管理局的检查员。

And, yeah, I'm gonna tell everybody you're an inspector from the FAA.

我当时想，

I'm like,

好的，太好了。

okay, great.

我登上飞机，表现得好像要教训所有人一样。

And I get on the plane and just act like you're gonna kick everyone's ass.

于是我上去后，坐在飞机后面折叠的辅助座位上，只是盯着每个人看，天啊，这一切都太违法了。

So I go on there and I sit in the they fold down a jump seat behind the plane and I just sit there looking at everybody and God, all this stuff is so illegal.

你知道的，登上飞机飞行，约翰会操作，而L-1011在当时是一架相当先进的飞机。

And you know, get on there and fly and John would take and the L-ten 11 was a pretty advanced plane at the time.

这事发生在80年代。

This was in the 80s.

约翰会抽着他的烟斗，飞机起飞后，他就把脚翘起来，叼着烟斗，然后就睡着了，我就在那儿待着。每次飞机要降落前，他才会醒过来，继续抽着烟斗，飞机就自己降落了。

And John would be smoking his pipe, he'd take off, he'd put his feet up and smoke his pipe and he'd fall asleep and I'd just be hanging out there and before the plane would land he'd just wake up and be smoking his pipe and the plane would land itself.

那时候我妻子正在学飞行课程，他就说，对，对，带她上来吧。

At the time my wife was taking flying lessons and he said, Yeah, yeah, bring her up here.

我记得当时还有个工程师也在另一处操控面板那边。

I think they had an engineer also on another panel.

我不太记得具体情况了，不过当时我和我妻子一起在那架飞机上。

I don't I don't quite remember, but I was there with my wife.

飞机上还有其他人，他就会说：‘嘿，过来这边握操纵杆。’

There were people on board and he'd say, hey, come on here and take the wheel.

他会叫来机长，我妻子那时候才二十多岁，他就让我妻子坐下来说：‘对，抓好操纵杆，一直调整方向就好。’

He'd get the captain of the plane with, think my wife was in her 20s at the time and just sit her down and say, Yeah, hold on to it and just keep correcting.

他就真的让我妻子开飞机，现在想想实在太离谱了。

And he'd just let her fly the plane, which is insane.

副驾驶只是瞥了一眼，我记得我也看向那位负责仪表的工程师，他低下头，装作什么都没发生，那只是一次而已。

And the copilot would just look over and I remember looking over at I think the engineer that looked at the gauges and he just put his head down and pretended like nothing was happening and that was just one time.

另一次，他驾驶L-1011飞机经过罗斯威尔时，我当时住在新墨西哥州，他们打电话告诉他，他拿不到工资了，公司破产了之类的。

Another time he was ferrying in L-ten 11, going by Roswell at the time I was living in New Mexico and they called him and told him he wasn't getting paid, that the company was defaulted or something like that.

他飞往新墨西哥州，在罗斯威尔机场降落，机上所有乘客都下了飞机，走出机场，走到公交车站，用公用电话给我打了电话，说：嘿，鲍勃。

And he was coming up to New Mexico and landed at the Roswell, just took the plane and landed at the Roswell Airport, This the whole 10/11 got off, walked out, walked up to a bus station, gave me a call on the the pay phone and said, hey, Bob.

我马上过去。

I'm coming over.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，你现在在新墨西哥州。

You know, you're in New Mexico.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他开车过来了。

And he drove up.

出租车会把他送到家门口。

Taxi would drop him off at the house.

他走进来。

He'd walk he he walked in.

他说：天啊，我累了。

He went, boy, I'm tired.

他就直接躺在沙发上，睡着了。

And he just lay down on the couch, you know, and go to sleep.

我说：你在这儿干什么？

And I said, you what are you doing here?

发生什么事了？

What's going on?

哦，我只是把一架飞机送过去了。

Oh, I just dropped a plane off.

他们不付我工资。

They're not paying me.

然后，你知道，就是这样了。

And, you know, that that's it.

但我的意思是，约翰·莱尔简直就是个难以预测的人。

But I mean, John Layer was such like a loose cannon.

他是个很棒的朋友，但他完全没有过滤机制。

He was he was a great friend to have, but he had no bullshit filter.

无论是一位退休将军来向他提供各种信息，还是邻居里一个通灵者来告诉他种种玄乎的事，他都会把他们同等对待。

If he had a retired general come up and give him all kinds of information or if he had a psychic come up from the neighborhood and give him all kinds of information, he'd put him in the same category.

所以他确实掌握了一些难以获取的有用信息，但这些信息却和胡说八道混在一起。

And so he really did have useful information that was difficult to get but it was mixed up with nonsense.

对。

Right.

有时候，他真的会深陷这些胡言乱语中。

And sometimes he would just really lean into that nonsense.

比如，他坚信太阳并不热，里面还住着人，我每次听了都笑得不行。

Like, was convinced that the sun wasn't hot and there were people living inside, and I used to die laughing.

我说，你疯了。

I went, you are insane.

我说，你没法证明它热。

I said, you you can't prove it's hot.

是的。

Yes.

我能。

I can.

你知道吗？

You know?

出去走走吧，你知道的，在炎热的一天。

Just go outside, you know, on a hot day, you know?

约翰说，那不是太阳。

And and, you know, and John said, that's not the sun.

那只是太阳的大气层在燃烧。

That's just the the sun's atmosphere that's on fire.

我说，你就是疯了。

And I said, you're just crazy.

但我们相处得还不错，他知道我觉得你疯了。

But we got along, and he knew that I I thought he was crazy.

但关键是，有很多人确实去找他，给他提供了很好的信息。

But the thing is a lot of people did come to him and give him good information.

总之，我不记得了。

Anyway, I don't remember

我要去哪

where I going

去读

to read

这个故事。

this story.

有些人就是这样。

Thing about some people.

有些人会跟你说一些胡言乱语，然后又告诉你一些真实的事情。

Some people will tell you nonsense, and then they'll tell you true things.

要接受这些真实的信息也来自那些说胡话的人，这确实很难。

And it's difficult to accept that true things also come from people that say nonsense.

没错。

Right.

就算他们说过一些荒谬的话，也不意味着他们说的其他事情就一定不真实。

Like, just because they've said something that's nonsense doesn't mean necessarily that this thing they're saying is not true, this other thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你必须能够分辨清楚。

And you've gotta be able to discern.

我接触过很多人，他们说很多古怪、毫无道理的话，但偶尔也会说出一些很有道理的话。

You've got like, I talk to a lot of people that say a lot of kooky things that don't make any sense, but then they'll say something that rings true.

这很困难，因为你必须对人性以及这类人有一定的理解，因为有些人就像网眼很大的渔网。

And it's it's difficult because you have to have some sort of an understanding of the human psyche and of those kind of people because there are kind of people that have very loose nets.

你指望他们的过滤机制和你的一样有效。

You're counting on their filter working like yours.

但其实并不是这样。

And it doesn't.

也不是。

And it no.

并不有效。

It doesn't.

有些人的好观点会漏进来，让你忍不住说：等等。

Some people good stuff gets in there, and you go, hold on.

你刚说了什么？

What'd you just say?

对。

Right.

再跟我说一遍。

Tell me that again.

这个是怎么运作的？

How does that one work?

是的。

Yeah.

你不能因为有人提出一些荒谬可笑的观点就完全否定他们。

You can't really discount people because somebody comes up with some absolute nonsense.

对。

Right.

这仅仅意味着他们的筛选机制有缺陷。

It just means their filter is defective.

对。

Right.

但哪个

But Which

也正是他们愿意接受超出正常范围事物的原因。

is also the reason why they're willing to entertain things that are outside of the normal spectrum.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以，他们可能确实有一些真正有用的信息，但这些信息被裹挟在大脚怪之类的东西里面。

So, like, they might have actual real useful information, but it's wrapped up in there with Bigfoot.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

但那个灵魂捕获器的事情。

But so the soul catcher thing.

哦，那个是的。

Oh, the yeah.

这正是我想说的。

That's where I was going.

灵魂捕获器。

The soul catcher.

我记得他坐着，我想他是跟我妻子乔伊讲这个故事，我正好走进去，他说是的，有这些巨大的天线，当你死后

So I remember him sitting, and I think he was telling my wife Joy this story because I walked in on it and he said, yeah, there are these giant antennas and when you die

我的天。

My god.

你的灵魂就会升上去。

Your soul goes up.

我想他说是那些灰色外星人设立了这个灵魂捕获器，整件事就是关于这个的。

And I think he said the grays, you know, this alien race set up this soul catcher, and that's what this whole thing is about.

当你死去时，它会把你的灵魂吸进去，然后以某种方式使用它。

And as you die, it sucks your soul in and they use it in some way.

但这并不是你灵魂该去的地方。

And it's not where your soul is supposed to go.