本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
白天听乔·罗根播客，晚上也听，一整天都是。
Train my day, Joe Rogan podcast, my night, all day.
是的。
Yep.
好的。
Alright.
很高兴认识你。
Very nice to meet you, man.
我也是。
You too.
谢谢，兄弟。
Thanks, man.
谢谢你做这项工作，因为你讨论的是一个让很多人困惑的话题。
And thanks for doing this work because you wanna talk about a subject that's confused so many people.
阳光对你有益吗？
Is the sun good for you?
阳光是在害你吗？
Is the sun killing you?
如果阳光有害，那为什么它能让你合成维生素D？
Why does it give you vitamin d if it's bad for you?
如果阳光有益，那为什么人们还会得皮肤癌？
Why why do people get skin cancer if it's good for you?
是的。
Yeah.
这事儿特别复杂，但相关说法一直没承认这一点，而这正是我写这本书的主要原因。
It's it's super complicated, and the messaging has not sort of admitted that, and that was, yeah, a big impetus for the book.
在你写这本书之前，你对晒太阳的看法是什么？
When what was your opinion of sun exposure before you started writing this?
我以前一直接受主流机构的说法，觉得晒太阳特别有害。
So I had, you know, I had inherited the conventional wisdom from the institutions that it was really bad.
不过我也得承认，我的直觉告诉我，也许没他们说的那么糟。
At the same time, I will admit that my instincts were that maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading me to believe.
因为每次晒太阳，我都感觉特别舒服。
Because whenever I was in the sun, I felt good.
我住在佛蒙特州。
And I live in Vermont.
到了冬天第六个月，我就觉得状态特别差。
At the by the time winter was reaching, like, month six, I felt bad.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
所以我感觉，事情没那么简单，背后肯定还有更多我们没被告诉的东西。
So I was like, there's more here than than we're being told.
是的。
Yeah.
我老婆也是这么想的。
That's that was my wife's opinion.
她说，阳光怎么可能有害呢？
She's like, the sun can't be bad.
一出去晒太阳，感觉就特别好。
It always feels good when you go out there.
我说，我不确定。
I'm like, I don't know.
事情没那么单纯，但这种直觉确实存在。
It's little more complicated than that, but that is a the instinct.
晒太阳的时候，真的特别舒服。
Like, it feels great when you're in the sun.
就好像你的身体本能地想要它一样。
Like, it's like your body wants it.
你的身体确实想要它。
Your body wants it.
我们现在知道，阳光会直接促使大脑释放鸦片类物质。
I mean, we we now know that it literally triggers the release of opiates in the brain, sunlight.
所以没错，你的身体想要它，而且当你晒到太阳时，身体还会给你奖励。
So, yeah, your body wants it, your body rewards you when you get it.
那问题出在哪里呢？
So what is the issue?
我们还是从头说起吧。
Well well, let's go back to the beginning.
你当初认为，晒太阳很可能导致癌症，所以防晒霜很有必要。
So you had this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer and sunscreen is good.
你得涂防晒霜。
You need to wear sunscreen.
别晒太阳。
Stay out of the sun.
那你刚开始研究的时候，是什么让你改变了看法？
So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion?
对我来说，这个转变其实发生在七八年前。
So it really started for me seven or eight years ago.
我当时参加了一个科学新闻的奖学金项目，就在做研究。
I was on this science journalism fellowship, so I was just doing research.
有几项研究让我很受触动，比如阳光会刺激大脑释放内啡肽，还有其他研究显示，光线照到皮肤上，认知能力也会提升。
Some of those studies hit, the one about opiate release in the brain and other studies showing that when light hits skin, cognition actually improves.
当身体感受到阳光时，新陈代谢会稍微加快。
Your metabolism cranks up a little bit when the body feels sunlight coming in.
我觉得，这挺有意思的。
And I thought, That's interesting.
这些都是很有价值的发现。
That's all good stuff.
后来我偶然看到几项研究，说晒太阳可能降低血压，这让我特别惊讶。
Then I came across a couple other studies that seemed to indicate that sunlight could lower blood pressure, which was really interesting.
但我还是觉得，阳光对身体不好。
So then I still had the sense, sunlight bad.
于是我干脆去搜了一下，晒太阳到底会缩短多少寿命？
So then I remember just Googling, so how much does sunlight shorten your lifespan?
结果你猜怎么着？晒太阳反而能延长寿命。
And, like, the punchline is sunlight seems to extend your lifespan.
看到这个结论时，我就想，这么重要的事，怎么没人提呢？
So when I hit that, I was like, why are we not hearing this?
那时候，我才真正开始认真思考这个问题。
So that was the beginning.
那问题到底出在哪呢？
And so then so what is the problem?
晒太阳到底哪里有问题？
Like, what what is the issue with sunlight?
当你想到皮肤癌的时候，有哪些混淆因素会导致皮肤癌呢？
Like, when you think about skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer?
我们真的完全了解这些吗？
Are we completely aware of that?
实际情况比我们想的要复杂。
It's more complicated than we thought.
阳光确实会增加患皮肤癌的风险，但具体到不同类型的皮肤癌，这种关系并不一定是线性的。
Sunlight does increase your risk of skin cancer, but depending on the type of skin cancer you're talking about, it's not necessarily a linear relationship.
总的来说，晒太多太阳确实会提高皮肤癌的风险。
Yes, in general, too much sun increases your risk of skin cancer.
但关键问题是，到底有哪些混淆因素？
But yeah, the question is, what are the confounding factors?
皮肤癌和其他健康问题相比，到底有多重要？
How important is skin cancer compared to these other things?
如果阳光能降低其他疾病的风险，那它和皮肤癌的风险该怎么权衡？
If sunlight reduces your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against the risk of skin cancer?
这可不是那种能用三十秒公益广告说清楚的事。
So it it's not the type of thing that can, you know, be done in a thirty second PSA.
对。
Right.
所以，导致皮肤癌的其实是日晒，那到底是什么在起作用呢？
So so sun cancer that does cause skin cancer, excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer, what what is causing it?
为什么会这样呢？
Why is it happening?
紫外线是太阳光中能量最强的部分，当这些光子打到皮肤上，会穿透进去，对吧？
So ultraviolet light, which is the most energy intense part of the solar spectrum, when those photons of light hit your skin, they go inside, right?
我们身体对各种波长的光都有不同程度的吸收。
We absorb all wavelengths of light to a greater or lesser degree.
这种高能量的紫外线如果击中DNA分子，就可能破坏它的结构，导致基因突变，最终引发皮肤癌。
And that super high energy ultraviolet light, if it hits a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule, and then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer.
它还会通过产生所谓的活性氧物质——也就是自由基——间接导致皮肤癌。
Then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer by creating what are called reactive oxygen species, which are free radicals, basically.
所以它会让这些原子变得活跃，去抢其他原子的电子，引发一连串反应，这就是自由基。
So it energizes these atoms that start to steal electrons from other atoms and cause a little chain reaction, which is what a free radical is.
因此，紫外线会增加你体内的自由基，同时直接损伤DNA。
So ultraviolet light can increase your free radicals, and it can directly damage DNA.
所以这就是为什么它可能
So that's why it could
导致皮肤癌。
cause skin cancer.
其实，早在四五十年代，人们了解到这一点后，科学家们就开始警觉了：晒太阳可能引发皮肤癌，我们得想想到底该晒多少太阳。
So it was basically that learning that one fact back in like the forties and fifties that made scientists start to say, uh-oh, light skin cancer, Maybe we should think about how much sun we're getting.
但当时这并不是人人都认同的观点。
But this wasn't universally accepted.
对吧？
Right?
即使在那时候，也有人觉得晒太阳对身体特别好。
There were some people that, even back then, thought that sun exposure was very healthy for you.
那我们是什么时候发现阳光能促使身体产生维生素D的呢？
Like, when did we figure out that sun causes the body to produce vitamin d?
是的。
Yeah.
这一点很重要，也是整个故事里很关键的部分，我想，其实早在二十世纪二十年代我们就弄明白了。
That was an important part, and it's a big part of the story, I think, because that was really back in the twenties that we figured that out.
再往前一点，人们就已经意识到阳光可以预防佝偻病。
And then even a little earlier, we realized that sunlight could prevent rickets.
佝偻病？
So Rickets?
对。
Yeah.
佝偻病是一种骨骼变软的疾病。
So rickets is a, like, soft bone disease.
如果你小时候，特别是婴儿时期，钙摄入不足，骨头就会变软，这就是佝偻病。
Like, if you you don't get enough calcium in your bones when you're a kid, when you're a baby, you get soft bones, you get rickets.
这可是种很严重的病。
Really bad disease.
工业革命时期，孩子们开始得佝偻病。
In the industrial revolution, kids started getting rickets.
乡下的孩子从来不会得这病。
Farm kids never got rickets.
突然间，孩子们进工厂干活，住在被煤烟笼罩的城市里，住在拥挤的公寓中，根本见不到阳光，结果到了十九世纪末，所有人都开始得佝偻病。
Then suddenly kids are working in factories, they're living in cities that are choked with coal coal smog, they're living in tenement buildings, they're never seeing the sun, and they all start getting rickets, late late eighteen hundreds.
营养有关系吗？
Is nutrition a factor in that?
是维生素D。
Vitamin D.
一开始他们以为可能是维生素A，但后来才发现，正是通过这个发现，人们才找到了维生素D。
It was all Vitamin At first they thought maybe it was Vitamin A, but it turned out that was how Vitamin D was discovered.
有些医生发现，这种病能用阳光治疗，接着又弄清楚了，皮肤被阳光照射时，身体就会合成维生素D。
Some doctors figured out that it could solve rickets in kids, and then they figured out that if sun hits skin, that's how we made vitamin D.
后来他们就发现了
Then they figured
怎么发现的？
out How did they figure that out?
他们拿狗做了些实验。
They did some tests on dogs.
其实，最早猜到这一点的那个人，当时只是有个直觉。
Actually one of the guys who figured it out, he had a hunch that that's what it was.
他们注意到，乡下的孩子不会得佝偻病，城里的孩子却会。
They noticed that kids in the country wouldn't get rickets and kids in the city did get rickets.
所以我在想，会不会跟阳光有关？
So I wonder if it's sunlight.
于是有个人在苏格兰做了个实验，把狗关进一个小仓库里——当时大家还以为是饮食问题，就给狗喂燕麦，因为那是苏格兰人当时的主要食物。
So then a guy took dogs and this was I think Scotland, stuck them in a they actually thought it was dietary he stuck them inside in this little warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is what everyone in Scotland ate at the time.
结果狗也得了佝偻病。
The dogs got rickets.
他以为是燕麦的问题。
And he thought it was the oatmeal.
他就想，看来跟饮食有关。
He was like, Okay, so something about diet.
但后来他运气不错，那些狗根本没晒到太阳。
But then he got lucky because he had deprived the dogs of sunlight.
所以它们才会得佝偻病。
And that's why they got rickets.
后来他们终于明白，阳光照在皮肤里的胆固醇分子上，会把它们转化成维生素D。
So then eventually they realized that light hitting cholesterol molecules in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D.
维生素D其实是胆固醇的下游产物，但需要同样的紫外线——那种可能损伤DNA的紫外线。
So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol, but it takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA.
紫外线会打断胆固醇分子中的一个化学键，让分子结构发生改变，重新折叠成维生素D的形态。
It actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule, which allows it toit gives it some movement and it flips around into a new form that's vitamin D.
所以一旦弄清楚了这一点，大家就意识到，晒太阳其实对身体特别好。
So once they figure that out, then they're like, sun's really good for you.
所以在二三十年代一直到四十年代，大家都觉得晒太阳能治百病。
So we had this era in like the 20s, 30s and into the 40s when everyone thought sun would cure everything.
而且他们真的拼命这么做。
And they went after it hard.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
那时候，父母会把孩子送到阿尔卑斯山的疗养院，接受日光疗法。
Parents would send their kids up into the Alps in like the 20s to institutes for helio therapy.
孩子们穿着内衣滑雪，上课也穿着内衣。
Kids would ski around in their underwear, take classes in their underwear.
那个年代留下了不少精彩的照片。
There's awesome photos from this era.
比如教练们穿着内衣，在瑞士的山里教孩子们，每个人看起来都特别健康，对吧？
Like the instructors are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland, teaching the kids, and everyone looks really healthy, right?
所以那时候人们觉得，阳光再多也不为过。
So there's kind of like this idea that you couldn't get too much light.
人们甚至故意晒伤自己，只为健康。
So people are literally burning themselves on purpose for health.
这就是问题所在吗？
Is that the issue?
晒伤是主要问题吗？
Is burning a giant part of the issue?
是的。
Yeah.
简单说吧，现在看来，黑色素瘤——最危险的皮肤癌——跟晒伤关系密切，但跟日常温和、适度的晒太阳关系不大。
So to give it away, now it looks like for melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer, it's associated with burning strongly, but not with gentle, moderate, everyday sun exposure.
那皮肤类型的影响有多大？
So how much factor is skin type?
比如皮肤白、有雀斑、红发或金发的人。
Like, people that are pale or have freckles and red hair, blonde hair.
这种因素在皮肤癌里占多大比重？
Like, how how much of a factor is that in skin cancer?
他们能不能通过温和、缓慢地晒太阳来减少风险？
And can they mitigate that by, like, gentle, slow exposure?
一点点地接触，慢慢积累，这样行不行？
Like a little bit here, little bit there and slowly build up?
对，非常重要。
Yeah, huge.
皮肤类型几乎决定了一切。
Like skin type is kind of everything.
皮肤特别深的人几乎不会得日晒引起的皮肤癌。
People who have really dark skin basically don't get sun induced skin cancer, almost never.
但官方很少提这一点，因为他们想推行一套通用的建议。
And the authorities don't tend to talk about that because they want things to be they want to have these one size fits all recommendations.
但那些‘永远避开阳光’的建议，其实是专门针对皮肤特别白的人，尤其是红发、长雀斑的那些人。
But those recommendations to basically always avoid the sun are written for the super fair people, especially if you have red hair, orange freckles.
那你体内的黑色素基因确实有突变，导致你对阳光引起的皮肤癌特别敏感。
Then you actually have a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight.
如果你有这种特征——比如很多痣、红头发、长雀斑，那就真的得特别当心。
So if you've got that phenotype, lots of moles, red hair, freckles, you do have to be really careful.
你能做的有限，毕竟你本来就很难晒黑。
And you can only do so much, like you're not going to tan that much anyway.
你的黑色素天生就不一样。
Your melanin's just different.
其他人就没那么敏感，晒太阳很容易就能变黑，身体也能自然产生更多黑色素。
Everybody else, yeah, you're you're much less susceptible and you can tan you you can make more melanin pretty easily through tanning.
我想知道，这会不会有什么影响。
I wonder what, if any, effect.
你听说过这个吗？
Have you ever heard of that?
我记不起那个肽的名字了，但现在有人在服用一种肽，能让身体生成更多黑色素，皮肤会变得很黑。
I don't I can't remember the name of the peptide, but there's a peptide that people are taking now that causes their body to generate melanin, and they get really dark.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
这真奇怪。
It's really weird.
是的
Yeah.
我不太清楚那里具体发生了什么。
And I don't know what's going on there exactly.
看起来那种肽可能让你的皮肤变得特别敏感，就像特别容易吸收太阳辐射，但这种吸收不一定有益。
It seems like that peptide is maybe making you there's a thing called photosensitizers that make your skin super sense like like, you just absorb solar radiation really well then, but not necessarily in a good way.
这会促使你的皮肤产生大量黑色素来试图补偿。
And that can make you make tons of melanin to try to compensate.
所以我怀疑，那种肽可能是通过触发黑色素生成，来为皮肤提供额外的防晒保护。
So I wonder that peptide might be triggering melanin as a compensation mechanism for extra protection from sunlight.
或者它只是单纯地促使黑色素生成，跟阳光没关系。
Or maybe it's just making melanin happen, like, independently of Yeah.
阳光。
Sunlight.
你有没有在 Perplexity 里查过？
Did you put it into Perplexity?
明白了。
Alright.
在这儿呢。
Here it is.
梅拉梅拉托南？
Mel melaton melatonotan?
梅拉托坦？
Melanotan?
这是一种人工合成的肽类物质，模拟人体内天然存在的黑色素细胞刺激激素，能激活黑色素细胞，促使黑色素生成，从而让皮肤变黑。
Synthetic peptide analog of the naturally occurring hormone a melon melanocyte stimulating hormone stimulates the body's melanocytes to produce melanin resulting in a dark tan.
这种物质基本上不受监管，在许多地区用于美容用途是非法的，而且有严重的健康风险。
It's largely unrel excuse me, unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes, and carry significant health risks.
明白了。
Alright.
都有哪些风险？
What's the risks?
FDA并没有批准它用于美容目的。
It's not approved by the FDA for cosmetic use.
不受监管的市场，意味着纯度无法保证。
An unregulated market means purity.
嗯，
Okay.
但这就是不受监管的问题。
But that's unregulated.
主要风险包括皮肤问题、原有痣快速且不均匀变黑、新痣出现、色素沉着过度，这些都可能掩盖或加速黑色素瘤的发展。
Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles, hyperpigmentation, concerns that could mask or accelerate the development of melanoma.
这是什么？
What is this?
可能造成伤害的勃起。
Potentially damaging erections.
什么？
What?
我是说，勃起。
I mean, erections.
哦，对了。
Oh, that's right.
这东西会让人勃起得特别厉害。
This apparently gives people raging erections.
为什么？
Why?
持续时间长、很疼，还可能造成损伤。想象一下，勃起得太过坚硬，简直把阴茎都撑到极限了。
Prolonged, painful, and potentially damaging Imagine you get an erection that goes so hard you redline the penis.
医学和皮肤科组织强烈建议不要使用梅洛宁，因为它未经批准。
Medical and dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of melonitin melonitin because it's unapproved.
目前没有经过临床验证的安全剂量。
There are no clinically established safe dosages.
这挺奇怪的，因为梅洛宁模仿的其实是α-MSH，而那正是人体自然合成黑色素的方式。
Well, weird because that so alpha MSH, the thing that it is mimicking is is that's how your body makes melanin.
这才是身体本来该有的机制。
That's how you're by supposed to do it.
你得看看使用前后的对比图，简直离谱。
You gotta see the before and afters because they're kinda bonkers.
我见过有些人效果特别好，但问题在于，这些都来自Instagram。
I've seen some people get super well, the problem is it's Instagram.
你根本分不清哪些是真实的。
You never know what's real.
那个 guy 就是稍微晒黑了一点。
That's that guy got a little tan.
我们来看看有没有什么靠谱的。
Let's see if there's any okay.
看看他多苍白，但你怎么知道这是不是真的？
Look how pale that see, but that's not how do we know if that's real?
他身上好像打了一层光似的。
Just like there's like a light on him.
没错。
Right.
可最后一张照片里，他却待在一个漆黑的衣橱里。
And then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last picture.
我见过一些前后对比照。
Before and after photos I've seen.
就是那个吗？
Is there a that one right there.
根本不行。
The low the no.
就是那个。
The one yeah.
就是这个。
That one.
看看这个人。
Look at that guy.
嗯，这确实是一种风格。
Well, you know, it's a look.
挺特别的风格。
It's an interesting look.
他给自己注射了未经监管的坦佩帕肽黑色素素二号。
He injected himself with unregulated tantipepatide melanaton melanatan two.
点开那个。
Click on that.
这看起来像是个笑话。
That seems like a a joke a
有一点。
little bit.
没有。
No.
不是。
No.
这个人就是我网上看到的那位。
This guy this is the guy that I saw online.
这家伙是实验对象。
This guy's he's the test rabbit.
这人真是拼了命了。
This dude went hard.
他是不是也出现了勃起？
Did he get an erection too?
是的。
Yeah.
他就是因为这个死的。
He died from that.
我不清楚。
I don't know.
来看看他的前后对比，他就是这么个情况。
So his before and afters so let's see what his he just okay.
是的。
Yeah.
他变得越来越黑，越来越黑，越来越黑。
He just got darker and darker and darker.
但我好奇，如果我理解得没错，这东西是没人管的。
But I wonder if, like, if I understand that it's unregulated.
但如果有人管了，现在他们正试着用肽类来规范这个，不过这照片确实太暗了。
But if it was regulated, and this is something they're trying to work with right now with peptides and make them reg see, that's the photo's dark, though.
对。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，这简直就像个劣质iPhone单摄像头拍的。
I mean, that that's like a shitty iPhone one camera.
太离谱了。
That's crazy.
如果真是这样，那也太荒唐了。
If that's like, this is nuts.
那里肯定有什么问题。
There's something going on there.
你知道它看起来像什么吗？
Like, you know what it looks like?
看起来就像那些健美选手，往皮肤上涂那种染料，让肌肉显得更突出。
It looks like those bodybuilder guys who use that that that ink, that dye on their skin to make themselves darker so their muscles pop out more.
这是更好一点的。
So here's here's better.
日晒记录的照片。
Tanning log photos.
这些照片更好一些。
These are better photos.
这太不可思议了。
That's crazy.
但我好奇，这会不会对皮肤有保护作用？
But I wonder if that offers skin protection.
肯定能保护皮肤啊，如果真是黑色素，那这个人几乎可以在外面待一整天都没事。
It would definitely offer skin I mean, if it is if it's if it's melanin, it's definitely I mean, that guy can can probably be outside all day.
对。
Yeah.
所以问题就在这儿。
So that's the question.
肤色白的人能用得上吗？
Is that available to someone who's pale?
比如，有没有哪个肤色很白的人尝试过这种做法？你能不能找找看。
Like and if someone is pale, see if you could find an example of someone who's pale who took it.
因为大家可能会想，哦，也许我们只需要做做研究，搞清楚剂量是多少，再研究怎么激活它这方面的功能。
Because you would think like, oh, well, maybe that maybe just we need to do studies and figure out what the dosage is and figure out how to activate that aspect of it.
黑色素确实能保护你免受皮肤癌的伤害。
Melanin clearly protects you from from skin cancer.
你看，如果你皮肤特别黑，比如非洲裔，你的黑色素能吸收掉大概97%到98%的紫外线。
Like, if you if you have super dark skin, like, you know, African ancestry, you're blocking like, your melanin is absorbing, like, 97, 98% of the UV rays.
效果非常显著。
It's super effective.
但鲍勃·马利不是死于皮肤癌吗？
But didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer?
是的。
He did.
这挺让人意外的。
That's pretty crazy.
好吧。
Okay.
这是其中一个。
This is one.
哇哦。
Wow.
看起来像是同一个人。
It looks like the same person.
很难确定是不是匹配。
Hard to tell if that fits.
是同一回换毛吗？
Same molt?
是的。
Yeah.
看起来像是同一回换毛。
It looks like the same molt.
这看起来挺不错的。
That looks pretty good.
但如果你打算用一些不正当的方式去卖这些东西，这个反而很容易推销。
But I would just also wouldn't if you were trying to sell some of the stuff in maybe nefarious ways, this would be an easy one to market.
这很难说，对吧？
Tough and you know?
确实如此。
Definitely.
你听好了。
Look.
这正是缺乏监管的市场带来的问题——我们根本无从知晓。
This is part of the unregulated market problem is we don't know.
而且说实话，这些东西大部分都是靠经验流传的所谓‘兄弟科学’。
And also, you know, you're getting 99% bro science on this stuff.
你是说，这个是吗？
You know, like is this?
什么才算典型的‘兄弟科学’？
What screams bro science?
这事儿简直到处都在嚷嚷。
Screams it from the top of the hills.
有哪个正经科学家会自己给自己注射黑色素素呢？
What legitimate scientist is out there injecting himself with melanotin?
但另一点是，如果你天然地来，比如每天晒一点太阳，慢慢适应，你不仅是在生成黑色素。
But the other thing is if you do it naturally, right, if you just get a little sun every day and slowly build up, you're not just making melanin.
你还在增强身体的修复机制。
You're also increasing your body's damage repair system.
比如，你的细胞里有各种核苷酸切除修复系统，能修复受损的DNA和出问题的细胞。
Like, you have all these, like, nucleotide excision repair, things that fix your DNA and fix cells that have gotten screwed up.
这些功能也会每天跟着提升。
And that will also ramp up every day.
这可不只是阳光的作用。
And it's not just sunlight.
运动也是同样的道理。
Exercise, same thing.
任何稍微给身体造成一点压力的事情，都像是毒物兴奋效应。
Anything that stresses the body a little bit, it's like hormesis.
所以这些做法都会让身体的修复系统全面启动，随时待命。
So all those things are going to cause your damage repair system to crank up and be ready.
所以你最好让黑色素生成和细胞修复同步提升。
So you could probably want those to like, melanin and the damage repair to to, like, go up together.
对。
Right.
如果真有研究做出来了，比如找到了安全有效的剂量和使用方式，那你最好配合逐渐增加的日晒，来慢慢增强身体的适应能力。
So you would wanna if if, let's say, studies were done, let's say we found what the effective and safe dose is and and how to administer it, you would wanna do it along with sun exposure slowly to try to ramp up your body's ability.
这里补充一点。
Added note on this.
这件事发生在十四年前，天哪。
This happened fourteen years ago Woah.
这挺奇怪的。
Which is strange.
他提到一些副作用，但同时也说，现在他对紫外线几乎完全不敏感了。
Here's some of the side effects he said, but he also said he's pretty much impervious to UV at this point.
性欲增强。
Increased libido.
这个我也没怎么注意到。
Didn't see that one much either.
他说他自己没感觉到。
He said he didn't get it.
等等。
Wait.
明白了。
Okay.
副作用包括食欲下降，轻微恶心，有些人明显些，我一点都没有。
Sides are decreased appetite, very mild nausea, more for some, none for me.
性欲下降，性欲增强。
Decreased libido increased libido.
他说自己也没怎么遇到过这种情况。
He said it didn't see that one much either.
有些人会出现面部潮红，就像吃了烟酸一样。
Some get facial flushing like a niacin dose.
我也没出现过。
Never got that either.
最奇怪的是，伸展身体时感觉特别舒服，就像刚醒来的那种感觉。
And the most strange thing is that it feels really good to stretch, like when you first wake up.
挺有意思的。
Interesting.
你做这个是为了皮肤变色吗？
Did you do it for the skin coloring?
是的。
Yes.
我就是为了皮肤变色才做的。
I did it for the skin coloring.
我现在对紫外线基本没什么反应了。
I'm pretty much impervious to UV at this point.
自从一月三十五号从佛罗里达回来，颜色已经淡了大概百分之二十五。
I have faded about 25% since returning from Florida January thirty fifth.
我们大概三月份还会再做一次。
We'll be dosing again probably in March.
这人还活着吗？
Is this guy still alive?
这正是我想问的。
That's that's my question.
14。
14.
那这是什么？
So what is that?
20，点开他个人资料的那个链接。
20 Click on that link where his his profile.
哦。
Oh.
咱们看看这家伙还活着没。
Let's see if homeboy's alive.
这下我们到了Reddit页面。
This takes us to Reddit.
在Reddit上发个帖。
Post on Reddit.
是
Is
这是Reddit吗？
this Reddit?
你看，一年前他还留言呢，我从来就没低调过。
See, a year ago, he's commenting, I never did it subtle.
好的。
Okay.
所以一年前，他还活着，或者有人接管了他的账号。
So a year ago, he's still alive or someone has taken over his account.
理论上，你完全可以使用那种老式的石英晒黑灯。
In theory, you could use an old school quartz tanning lamp.
明白了。
Okay.
所以可以用它来晒黑。
So you could tan with it.
他待在一个挺怪的Reddit板块里，咱们别再看了。
And he's in a weird reddit there, we gotta stop looking.
为什么？
Why?
我不是说这个要上节目，但他待的那个地方挺奇怪的。
I don't I mean, this is not for the show, but he's in a weird
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
好
Okay.
我们会的，那就这样
We will That's
所以我才担心
why I was afraid
不敢走那条路
to go that way.
这确实是个问题
That's a problem.
只有疯子才会去尝试这种事
Well, only crazy people are willing to try something like that.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
你记得吗，以前有个 guy，好像是在奥普拉或者哪个节目里。
Like, do you remember that there was a guy god.
他一直在吃银子，对，是胶体银吗？
I think it was on Oprah or one of those shows where he was taking was it silver?
对。
Yeah.
胶体银。
Colloidal silver.
没错。
That's right.
就是胶体银。
Colloidal silver.
结果他全身皮肤都变蓝了，永久性的，真的。
And his whole his skin turned blue permanently Yeah.
跟蓝精灵一样。
Like a smurf.
是的。
Yeah.
这人真可怜。
Poor guy.
是的。
Yeah.
后来他去世了。
And he wound up dying.
是的。
Yeah.
他是什么时候、怎么死的？
What when and how did it kill him?
是
Do
我不确定是不是这个导致他死的，但他确实年纪轻轻就去世了。
it I don't know if it killed him, but he's he I believe he died young.
这哥们儿啊。
That's homeboy.
不太妙。
Not good.
是的。
Yeah.
这模样真不怎么样。
That's that's just not a good look.
你可能会先觉得皮肤有点发蓝，然后就想：哎？
You would think you'd start turning a little blue, and you'd go, hey.
也许我该停用胶体银了。
Maybe I need to back off this colloidal silver.
Papa Swerve 去世了。
Papa Swerve dies.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这
I mean, what
也太离谱了吧，兄弟？
the fuck, dude?
我是说，也许他要是用点镧系元素，还能把肤色调匀一点。
That guy I mean, maybe he could have gotten some lanitan and even that out.
结果就变成了一种淡淡的巧克力色，你知道的，带点蓝调的巧克力色。
It's just been a nice chocolate, you know, like a bluish chocolate.
他看起来还真挺诱人的。
I mean, he looks delicious.
这点我得承认。
I'll say that.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是银质沉着病，一种罕见病，因为体内银元素积累，导致皮肤变蓝。
This is Argyria Argyria Argyria, the rare disease that turns people blue caused by a buildup of silver in the body, which discolors the skin.
哇。
Wow.
2013年。
2013.
他是因其他原因去世的，不管那到底是什么意思。
He died from unrelated causes, whatever that means.
我的意思是，谁会吃那么多胶体银啊。
I mean, anybody's taking that much colloidal silver.
你肯定还犯了其他很多错误。
You probably make a lot of other mistakes.
我的意思是，确实，比如
I mean, yeah, like
你真是个爱冒险的人。
You're a risky dude.
我有太多选择了。
I have so many options.
本集由Ketone IQ赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Ketone IQ.
有个有趣的事儿跟你们说。
Here's something cool.
Ketone IQ要送给五位幸运听众定制签名拳套，签名人是John Bones Jones——MMA界的传奇，史上最强。
Ketone IQ is giving five lucky listeners the chance to win custom autographed gloves signed by John Bones Jones, the GOAT, the absolute legend of MMA.
不过话说回来，我研究酮体已经好多年了。
But first, you know, I've been studying ketones for years.
美国军方也曾花多年时间研究一个问题。
The US military spent years researching one question.
给大脑提供什么能量最好？
What is the best fuel you can give the brain?
最后他们发现，酮体就是大脑天然的超级燃料。
They landed on ketones, your brain's natural super fuel.
Ketone IQ的团队帮着把这项技术带到了市场上，让更多人用得上。
The guys at Ketone IQ helped bring it to market and make it accessible.
我跟你说，这东西真的特别棒。
And I'm telling you, this stuff is great.
我一吃，脑子运转起来都不一样了。
My brain works on another level when I take it.
现在正是尝试的好时机。
There's never been a better time to try it out yourself.
而且你现在通过我的链接下单，能享七折优惠，还会自动参与抽奖，赢取由Ketone IQ联合创始人约翰·博恩斯·琼斯和奥运金牌摔跤手加布尔·史蒂文森签名的定制拳击手套。
And because when you order now through my link, you get 30% off, and you're automatically entered to win a pair of custom MMA gloves signed by Ketone IQ co owner John Bones Jones and gold medal wrestler Gable Stevenson.
赶紧去 ketone.com/rogan，拿下首单七折，还有机会赢签名手套。
So go to ketone.com/rogan today, claim 30% off your first order, and enter to win some autographed gloves.
我们继续聊鲍勃·马利。
Back to Bob Marley.
对。
Yes.
他确实是死于皮肤癌，这让很多人感到困惑。
He did die of skin cancer and that confuses a lot of people.
所以他脚趾上长了黑色素瘤。
So he had he had melanoma on his toe.
对。
Right.
这种黑色素瘤和晒太阳没关系。
So and that was a kind of melanoma that's not caused by the sun.
不管什么种族，人人都有同样的患病几率，这可不常见。
And everybody gets it, no matter what race you are, everybody gets it at the same rate, which is quite uncommon.
他们知道这跟阳光无关，但还是让人困惑，因为人们会想：我脚趾上怎么会长黑色素瘤？
They know it's not caused by the sun, but it complicates things for people because people are like, I got melanoma on my toe?
还以为是晒的，心里纳闷：这怎么可能？
And they think it's from the sun, and they're like, How did that happen?
脚上怎么会有这东西？
What's melanoma doing down there?
不是所有黑色素瘤都跟晒太阳有关。
Not all melanomas are caused by the sun.
大多数确实是，但黑色素瘤的情况特别复杂。
Most probably are, but it gets really weird with melanoma.
它跟晒伤有关，尤其是间歇性暴晒，比如一整年都在办公室，然后去坎昆被晒得脱皮。
It's associated with burning, with intermittent sun exposure, like you work in an office all year and then you go to Cancun and get fried.
这种生活方式特别容易引发黑色素瘤。
That's a pretty good recipe for melanoma.
有晒伤史的人，患病风险会翻倍。
History of sunburns also will double your risk.
如果是天天户外工作，长期暴露在阳光下，反而患黑色素瘤的风险更低。
Chronic exposure, where you have an outdoor job every day, lower than average risk of melanoma.
真的吗？
So it's Really?
是的。
Yeah.
所以事情就变得挺奇怪的。
So it gets weird.
比如园艺工人之类的
Like landscapers or
就是户外工作者。
something.
户外工作者患黑色素瘤的概率比办公室职员要低。
Landscapers have outdoor workers have fewer have a lower incidence of melanoma than office workers.
工作者。
Workers.
真没想到。
Wow.
而且我们很少听到这种说法。
And we don't hear that.
是啊。
No.
确实。
No.
我是说，前两天我在刷Instagram，看到有个哥们儿，真挺惨的。也不知道他脸上到底出了啥事，反正得了某种皮肤癌，后来做了植皮手术。伤口在他鼻子上，所以看起来有一块皮瓣几乎盖住了他的眼睛。
I mean, I was I was looking at Instagram the other day, and some poor guy had this I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer, and they had to take a graft and his it was on his nose, so it was like a flap of skin was like almost covering over his eye.
然后你知道吧，他的留言就是提醒大家要涂防晒霜。
And you know, his message was wear sunscreen.
这真是
This is
发生在他身上的
what happened to
我自己。
me.
所以我是说，是的。
So I mean, yeah.
所以我不想轻视皮肤癌，因为它真的很糟糕。
So I don't wanna downplay skin cancer because it sucks.
如果得了的话，你知道，他们得切掉你耳朵的一大块之类的。
What you get if it's, know, they have to cut off a hunk of your ear or something.
这确实太惨了。
That definitely sucks.
就算不致命，也够糟的。
Even if it's not life threatening, sucks.
对。
Yeah.
不过，是啊。
So but and so yeah.
但这种情况通常都是晒得太厉害造成的。
Like but that's generally from overexposure.
就像
Like
晒伤。
Burning.
晒伤。
Burning.
我之前打交道的那些专家都说，别晒伤。
You all the experts I was fucking with said, don't burn.
对吧？
Right?
大家总说，晒伤不只是表面发红那么简单。
Burning is the one that people always say that it's not just burning.
晒伤造成的损伤，往往多年后才会显现出来。
It's burning causes damage that starts to appear years later.
没错。
Yeah.
现在这方面研究越来越深入了。
And there's there's dialing in on that more and more.
童年时期晒伤，与黑色素瘤的关联性最高。
It can start like, burns during childhood is actually highest association for melanoma.
真的吗？
Really?
小时候别晒伤了，不然我们都完蛋。
Don't burn when you're kids that we're all screwed.
这
That
太糟糕了。
sucks.
这真糟透了，我小时候被晒得够呛。
That sucks because I fucking cooked myself as a kid.
我也是。
Same here.
我从小在佛罗里达长大，天天被晒得脱皮。
I grew up in Florida, fried.
你懂的。
You know?
我小时候在七十年代和八十年代，那时候大家都想晒黑，尤其是我住在波士顿时。
Well, when I was a kid in the seventies and eighties, you know, you wanted to get a tan, you know, especially when I lived in Boston.
冬天一回暖，冷得要命。
It was cold as shit in the winter when it got warm.
你是佛蒙特人吧。
You know, you're a Vermont guy.
是的。
Yeah.
一出去，就抹上婴儿油。
You got out there, you're like, ah, put baby oil on.
我们都被晒焦了。
We fried.
完全没错。
Totally.
我刚看了些六七十年代的强生婴儿油广告。
I I was just looking at some of those Johnson baby oil ads from, the sixties and seventies.
天哪。
Oh my god.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
那简直就是用来煎油的
It was basically cooking lube.
没错
Was Totally.
是的
Yeah.
它确实让你更容易晒黑
It just helped helped you cook better.
但你还记得吧，那个演员乔治·汉密尔顿，对，就是他
But you remember, you know, George Hamilton, like, the actor Yes.
古铜色先生
Mister Tan.
他那时候
He had,
是啊
like Yeah.
他一直
He was
都特别在意这个。
all about that.
我前几天还想着，他现在怎么样了？
I I just the other day, I was like, how's he doing?
87岁了，身体却好得惊人。
87 and and ridiculously healthy right now.
真的吗？
Really?
对啊。
Yeah.
他现在状态特别好。
He's going strong.
是的。
Yeah.
我见过那 guy。
I met that guy.
他以前上过一集《新闻电台》。
He was he did an episode of News Radio once.
是的。
Yeah.
他晒得黑得不行。
He was tan as fuck.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That Yeah.
那就是他的标志。
That was his thing.
那就是他的特点。
That was his thing.
后来就成了一种惯例。
It became yeah.
大家认识他就是因为这个，而且到现在还保持着。
What he was known for, and still it's still going.
所以他还是一样晒得黑黑的？
That's so he's still tan?
是的。
Yeah.
你该见见他。
You should see him.
他看起来状态特别好。
He looks great.
长什么样？
Look like?
找张乔治·汉密尔顿的照片看看。
Pull up a photo of George Hamilton.
都87岁了，还能这样真不错。
I mean, great for an 87 year old.
是啊。
Yeah.
你看看他。
Look at him.
还是那么黑。
Still tan.
他怎么晒的，皮肤亮得发亮。
How does he Tan is shiny.
居然因为这个出名，真够奇怪的。
What a weird thing to be known for.
他就是那个晒得黑黑的人。
He's the guy who gets tan.
我的意思是，你明白我说的吧？
What You I'm saying?
我是说，试着回想一下他演过的某个角色。
I mean, try to remember a a role that he played.
确实如此。
That's true.
我觉得他演过一部七十年代的糟糕喜剧版德古拉。
I I think he was Dracula in some bad nineteen seventies, like, comedy.
看看这个。
Look at that.
这才叫真正的古铜色。
That's a tan right there.
没错。
Right.
那他到底是怎么晒黑的呢？
So how was he getting it, though?
我记得小时候在波士顿，很多人冬天都去日光浴床，特别普遍。
Like, I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people used tanning beds, especially in the wintertime.
现在还是这样。
And they still do.
其实日光浴床的数量还在上升，而且确实会增加患黑色素瘤的风险。
Like, that those are actually, like, on the rise, and they do they seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure.
这下清楚了吧。
There you go.
他就是这么晒黑的。
That's how he did it.
哎，你瞧。
Ah, look.
他用的是那种反射式晒黑设备。
He's got a reflect a tan thing.
所以他整天在外面晒太阳，看起来也没事。
So he was just out there getting sunlight all the time, and he didn't look bad.
这事儿吧，确实挺奇怪的。
That's, know, that that's a that's a weird one.
对吧？
Right?
他说自己从来没得过皮肤癌，我觉得是这样。
He claims he's never had skin skin cancer, I think.
他可能因为经常晒，身体已经适应了。
Well, he probably was doing it so often that his body was prepared for it.
对吧？
Right?
你看他和那个角落里的女士拍的那张照片。
Look at that photo of him with that lady in the corner.
是啊。
Yeah.
你瞧这个。
Look at that.
这太离谱了。
That's nuts.
你看，问题就在这儿。
See, that's the thing.
我觉得，如果你长期接受这种剂量，身体会生成一大堆物质，专门保护细胞不癌变。
I think, like, if you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous.
毕竟，生命已经跟太阳打交道整整五亿年了。
Because, you know, living things have been working on this for five hundred million years.
每天都被阳光暴晒，它们早就学会应对了。
Like they've been hammered by the sun every day and they've got to deal with it.
没错。
Right.
所以当皮肤完全没准备好的时候，突然给它来个超强剂量，那就危险了。
So it seems like when your skin is totally unprepared and you shock it with a massive dose that it's not ready for, then then you're in trouble.
这种事才是真会惹麻烦的。
Like, that's the kind of thing that triggers trouble.
这项研究有没有人反对过？
Was there any pushback on this research?
你刚开始研究的时候，发现晒太阳其实有不少好处，有没有皮肤科医生跑来说，嘿？
Like, when you when you first started examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits, Were were any dermatologists saying, hey.
这信息太危险了。
This is dangerous information.
你不该这么说。
You shouldn't say this.
那可不咋地。
Hell, yeah.
你知道吗，美国皮肤病学会已经多次正式点名批评过我。
You know, I've been denounced multiple times by the American Academy of Dermatology, like, officially.
我每发一篇文章，他们都会寄正式信件来，说谁都不该晒太阳。
They send an official letter when I write an article, and they say, nobody should be getting any sun exposure.
这是他们的观点？
That's their opinion?
不管有什么好处，不管维生素D有多重要，都不该晒太阳？
No one should be getting any sun exposure regardless of the benefits, the vitamin d, the
如果不防晒，不管是用防晒霜还是穿衣服，都不该晒太阳。
No sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or, you know, clothing.
真的吗。
Wow.
如果因此缺乏维生素D，那就吃片剂吧。
And if if that makes you vitamin d deficient, take a pill.
这才是真正需要改变的地方。
So that's what that's what needs to change.
因为那些片剂在试验中根本没效果。
Because those pills haven't panned out in tests.
不知为什么，它们的效果完全赶不上天然产生的维生素D。
They don't work like natural d does for whatever reason.
真的吗？
Really?
对。
Yeah.
它们完全没用。
They don't work at all.
你是说
What do you
什么意思？
mean?
所以大家都觉得，就像八九十年代那样，科学家们开始注意到，那些血液中天然维生素D水平较低的人，患各种经典慢性病的几率更高。
So everyone thought, like back in the 80s, 90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that people who naturally had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had higher rates of all the classic chronic diseases.
于是大家就开始想，好吧，维生素D简直像万能药一样。
So they started thinking, okay, D, it's like a magic pill almost.
如果我们提高大家的维生素D水平，就能治愈或降低所有人患这些疾病的风险。
It'll cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D.
于是他们开始推荐维生素D补充剂，我觉得这到现在还是全球最受欢迎的保健品
So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still like the number one supplement
全世界排名第一。
in the world.
我每天都在吃。
I take it.
后来他们做了大量临床试验，想证明它真的有效。
So then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help.
规模非常大，非常大的临床试验。
Huge, huge clinical trials.
成千上万人参与，追踪随访持续了好几年。
Tens of thousands of people, follow ups that went went for many years.
但结果都没显示出任何好处。
None of them showed a benefit.
对免疫功能也没任何帮助吗？
No benefit in terms of your immune response?
对任何疾病都没效果。
No benefit for any condition.
那他们吃维生素D的时候，有没有同时吃维生素K2和镁呢？
Now did they take vitamin d along with vitamin k two and with magnesium?
因为这才是推荐的搭配。
Because that's what's recommended.
这个嘛，其实有好几种不同的说法。
So I don't I I mean, there are a bunch of different
单独吃维生素D似乎没什么用。
Apparently, vitamin d by itself is not effective.
得搭配维生素K2和镁才行，我觉得可能还缺一个。
That you need vitamin d with k two and magnesium, and I think there might be another one.
让我想想。
Let's see.
你去Perplexity查一下吧。
Put that into perplexity, please.
去看看它怎么说，维生素D有什么好处，应该和什么一起吃？
See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin d and what should it be taken with?
我觉得镁和维生素K2最重要，它们一起作用效果会更好。
Because I think magnesium and k two are the big ones, and that together, they have a sort of a synergistic effect.
是的。
Yeah.
有可能就是这样。
That that could be.
嗯，我挺好奇的。
Like, yeah, I'd be curious.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得单吃维生素D的话，身体很难吸收。
I think vitamin d by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it.
这种事其实挺多的。
It's like there's a lot of things like that.
锌也是这样。
Like, zinc is like that.
吸收锌需要一种离子载体，所以得和槲皮素一起吃。
You need an ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it with quercetin.
对。
Yeah.
有一点，维生素D，你知道，它通过皮肤自然合成的时候，会伴随一大堆相关的化合物一起产生。
Well, one thing, d, you know, the way you it naturally comes in through the skin, and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds.
没错。
Right.
所以，我觉得当它和合适的物质搭配时，确实会产生协同作用。
And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things.
但一直以来，晒太阳都被认为是获取维生素D最好的方式。
But d from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it.
要说补充维生素D，最有效、最健康的方法就是晒太阳。
Like, the best way to get vitamin d, the most effective, the healthiest way is through sun exposure.
是的。
Yeah.
这本来就是设计的初衷。
Like, that's that's how the design's supposed to work.
Perplexity说，维生素D有助于身体吸收钙质，强健骨骼和牙齿，支持肌肉和神经功能，并在免疫系统中发挥关键作用。
Perplexity says vitamin d helps your body absorb calcium, build strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function.
最好在吃含有脂肪的正餐或零食时服用，这样吸收效果更好，同时搭配钙质对骨骼健康更有益。
It's best absorbed when taken with a meal or a snack that contains some fat and offered paired with calcium for bone health.
那请说说，维生素D和K2、镁一起服用有什么好处？
What so please put in what are the benefits of vitamin d taken with k two and magnesium.
我们看看它怎么说。
Let's see if it says that.
因为这是我那位维生素专家医生的建议。
Because this is what my doctor who is a vitamin specialist recommends.
和K2、镁一起服用的好处。
Benefits when taken with k two and magnesium.
好的。
Okay.
维生素D、K2和镁一起服用，能让它们各自的效果更好，尤其是对骨骼和心脏，前提是剂量适合你。
Taking vitamin d together with vitamin k two and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart as long as the doses are appropriate for you.
这三者主要能改善身体对钙的利用。
The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium.
有意思。
Interesting.
D帮助你吸收钙。
D helps you absorb it.
镁帮助激活D，而K2则引导钙进入骨骼，而不是沉积在动脉里。
Magnesium helps activate D, and k two helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries.
D能提升肠道对钙的吸收，同时支持骨骼、肌肉和免疫功能。
D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function.
镁是激活维生素D所必需的。
Magnesium required to activate vitamin D.
镁摄入不足会削弱维生素D的效果，同时直接支持骨骼结构和多种酶的活性。
Low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes.
维生素K2能激活蛋白质，帮助把钙送到骨骼和牙齿里，防止它沉积在动脉和软组织中，对骨骼和心血管健康都有好处。
K two activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health.
这三种营养素搭配的好处包括：更强的骨骼支持、更好的心脏和动脉保护，以及更高效地利用维生素D。
Potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin D use.
明白了。
Okay.
所以医生说得对。
So the doctor is correct.
也许问题就在于，这些人补充时镁和钙都不足，也没补充维生素K2。
So maybe that's the problem, is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium, didn't have k two.
是的。
Yeah.
我很好奇，这种组合会不会影响疾病的发生率。
I thought I'd be curious if there was an effect on disease incidence for that combination.
我不确定。
I don't I don't know.
因为单独补充维生素D，确实没什么明显效果。
Because the d on its own, yeah, it didn't show any any effect.
但晒太阳的话——
But sun exposure
我们把这个也加上。
Let's put that in.
单独服用维生素D，对健康有帮助吗？
Does vitamin d taken on its own have any health benefits?
我们来看看相关说法。
Let's see what it says to that.
我以前从来没听说过，维生素D单独使用完全没效果。
Because I'd I'd never heard that, that d on its own was not effective at all.
我只知道它效果微弱，必须和其他营养素一起补充。
I've just heard that it was minimally effective, that you had to take it with other
看起来它只对那些严重缺乏维生素D的人有效。
It seems like it only helps people who had who are really deficient.
如果你的水平特别低，低于每毫升十六纳克，那补充可能确实有帮助。
If you're super low, below sixteen nanograms per milliliter, then probably it's a good idea.
但对于那些水平已经达到每毫升二十纳克以上的人，似乎并没有出现那些在天然高水平人群中观察到的好处。
But for people who already had at least twenty nanograms per milliliter, didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates of the way you're
你指的是这些吗？
looking for?
上面说，有。
It says, yes.
单独补充维生素D确实有几种经过充分证实的健康益处，尤其对骨骼、肌肉和免疫力有帮助。
Vitamin D on its own has several well proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity.
这只是一个笼统的说法。
Just like a general answer.
增强骨骼强度、预防骨折、改善肌肉功能，还有足够的
Bone strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate butt
我没说‘本身’这个词。
I didn't add own.
不好意思。
Sorry.
你说什么？
What's that?
我没讲清楚，漏了‘本身’这个词。
I didn't I missed the word own.
单独服用的话。
Taken on it.
本身单独使用。
On its own.
我来解释一下，刚才的回答为什么听起来怪怪的。
I'll try why the answer was weird.
那我们来看看。
So let's see.
是的
Yes.
它有明确的科学依据，尤其对骨骼、肌肉和纠正缺乏症很有帮助。
It has clear proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and correcting deficiency.
对
Yeah.
这主要是给那些水平特别低的人用的。
So that's gonna be for people who have super low levels.
对
Mhmm.
预防佝偻病。
Preventing rickets.
就是这个。
There it is.
对
Yeah.
但他们原本以为，根据那些天然维生素D水平高的人的情况，补充维生素D可能降低其他多种疾病的发生率。
But so they they had thought that it might reduce incidence of all these other diseases based on what they're seeing for people who naturally had high levels
对。
Mhmm.
结果发现，并没有效果。
Through sun exposure, and it didn't.
那接下来呢？
So then What do
你指的是什么？
you mean?
就是那些通过晒太阳获得高维生素D水平的人。
People who had high levels through sun exposure.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你的维生素D自然水平，其实直接反映了你晒太阳的量
So because, like, your your natural level of vitamin d is sort of a direct, like, meter of how much
对。
Right.
但这是自然水平。
But this is natural level.
你不是在说补充维生素D。
You're not talking about supplementation.
对。
Right.
没错。
Right.
明白了。
Okay.
所以那些没吃补充剂、但体内维生素D水平本来就高的人，各种疾病的发生率都更低。
So that was why, like, people who had high levels of d without supplementation have lower rates of all, like every disease you can think of.
因此人们希望，如果把每个人的维生素D水平都提升到那个程度，也能有同样的效果，结果并没有。
So the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels would have the same effect, and it didn't.
《新英格兰医学杂志》在2022年还真发过一篇社论，说别再开维生素D了。
New England Journal of Medicine actually did an editorial in 2022 saying, stop prescribing d.
这东西没用。
It doesn't work,
这挺让人遗憾的。
which is sad.
可我觉得这说法不太对劲。
God, that seems incorrect, though.
因为如果你搭配镁和维生素K2一起吃，它们其实是协同作用的，也有明确的健康益处。
Because if you're taking it with magnesium and k two, it seems that they do work synergistically, and there seems to be proven health benefits.
我觉得其中一个问题是，人们似乎总不愿意推荐补充剂，不知为啥。
The one of the problems, I think, is, like, I I I think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason.
对。
Mhmm.
这事儿挺奇怪的。
It's kind of a weird thing.
他们就是想直接否定它。
Like, they wanna dismiss it.
我以前有个医生告诉我，别浪费时间吃维生素。
Like, I had a doctor once who told me, don't bother taking vitamins.
好好吃饭就行了。
Just eat a balanced diet.
我当时就想，
And I was like,
你看看你。
look at you.
那 guy 看起来糟透了。
Guy looked like shit.
他可没你这么精神。
He didn't look as good as you.
对吧？
Right?
他看起来糟透了。
He looked terrible.
是啊。
Was Yeah.
就是说。
Like
我真没想到，他们普遍健康状况这么差。
I'm amazed how poor what poor health they generally, like, seem to
我真说不清楚。
I I can't explain.
你想想，一个肚子这么大还劝别人注意饮食的人，根本让人没法当真，毕竟他那样子实在太糟糕了。
Take it I mean, it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when well, it just he looked terrible.
对啊。
Yeah.
他还跟我说，我只要吃好就行了。
And he was telling me that I just need a healthy diet.
我就说，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
我确实吃得挺健康，但吃维生素的时候我感觉不一样，体检结果也证明了这一点。
I do have a healthy diet, but also I feel different when I take vitamins, and my blood work reflects that.
是的。
Yeah.
我注意到，当我开始参加太阳研究者的所有会议时，他们全都在酒店的地下室里，那些人简直瘦得吓人。
I noticed that when when I was I was I started going to all the conferences of the Sun researchers, and they're all in, like, the basements of hotels, and they those guys all look are as pacey as it gets.
你们这些人，难道从来不身体力行自己说的那些道理吗？
Like, do none of you guys, like, you know, practice what you preach?
真的吗？
Really?
真奇怪，人类拥有这么多知识，明明还有很多不懂的地方，却还是搞不清楚自己和环境之间的关系。
How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge, with mean, obviously, there's much more to learn.
我们还是不明白自己该怎么跟周围的世界相处。
We're still confused about how we interact with our environment.
是的
Yeah.
当然
Absolutely.
完全正确
A 100%.
阳光嘛，它就在那儿，
With sun, which seems to be like, it's there.
无处不在。
It's it's everywhere.
在正常的生活环境中，人只要在户外，不光是城市里，好像我们本该很清楚晒太阳会带来什么影响。
It's like you're always in the sun in normal in in in the normal world environment where human outside of cities and all that stuff, that's it seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun.
没错
Yeah.
还有光线本身。
And light period.
各种各样的光。
Like, light of all kinds.
在生物学里，好像大家觉得光无所谓。
Like, it seems like there's the sense in biology that light didn't matter.
觉得光只是转瞬即逝的东西，但一百年前的量子物理学家早就明白，光和物质其实是一体两面，对吧？
It's, like, just ephemeral, Which, you know, the quantum physicist one hundred years ago understood that light and matter are just like two halves of the same coin, right?
光会彻底影响分子的行为。
And that light totally affects the behavior molecules.
我们身体里全是分子，光当然重要。
We're made of molecules, light's going to matter.
所以其实，这本书最后让我想通的就是这一点。
So I actually think, like, that's where I eventually got to with the book.
我们应该更认真地看待自己的“光摄入”和所处的“光环境”。
Was like, we need to think about our light diets and our, like, lightscapes that we're, you know, surrounding ourselves with, like, more seriously than we have.
你的研究似乎完全建立在数据基础上。
Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data.
那么这些皮肤科医生对这些数据怎么看呢？他们一方面在批评你，说你这个人不该被听信，你讲的东西很危险，可你明明讲的都是数据啊。
So what did these dermatologists have to say about the data if they're denouncing you and they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to, the things you're saying are dangerous, like but you're talking about data.
所以我真不明白，他们怎么能这么武断地下结论。
So I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that.
没错。
Right.
我觉得我们真正需要做的，是坐下来好好聊聊这些数据，毕竟事先并没有一个标准答案。
And what I think we just need to have a conversation about the data, and, you know, there's no, like, right answer ahead of time.
但他们的职责就是预防皮肤癌。
But they don't like, their job is to prevent skin cancer.
所以如果你的唯一目标就是这个，那你自然会告诉人们：别晒太阳。
So if you if that's your only job, you're gonna tell people stay out of the sunlight.
永远别晒。
Forever.
永远别晒。
Forever.
对吧？
Right?
而且没人能质疑你这一点。
And no one can call you on that.
没人能说：嘿。
No one can say, hey.
我得了皮肤癌。
Like, I got skin cancer.
这都是你的错。
It's your fault.
没错。
Right.
但晒太阳不是能改善心血管健康、降低血压吗？
But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure?
而且从数据上看，心血管疾病不是比皮肤癌危险得多吗？
And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer in terms of numbers?
这是排名第一的。
It's number one.
每年有两千万人死于心血管疾病。
Twenty million deaths a year, cardio.
所以任何能改善这个问题的事都太棒了。
So anything that moves the needle on that is awesome.
你知道的。
You know?
而且确实有帮助。
And it does.
看起来确实如此。
And it seems to.
所有的研究都表明它有效。
Like all the studies show it does.
但这些都只是观察性研究，对吧？
But they're all observational studies, right?
你看看那些人群，就会发现他们晒太阳多，血压更低，心血管疾病的发病率也更低。
You look at populations, you're like, Oh, these people have more sun exposure, lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease.
但另一方面，有人会说，相关性不等于因果关系。
But then, you know, the other side will say, you know, correlation does not prove causation.
他们让你证明，做一项大型临床研究，把一半人放在阳光下，看他们是不是活得更久——可这种研究根本不可能实现。
Like, prove show us that it's you know, do do your giant clinical study where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer, which is not gonna happen.
没错。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
但问题是，他们愿意跟你认真讨论吗？
But it's like, are they willing to have a conversation with you?
他们根本不愿意，也不愿去关注阳光和皮肤癌之外的其他问题。
They're not willing to they don't wanna look outside of the sun and skin cancer question.
他们压根不考虑那些超出他们研究范围的其他好处。
Like, they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits that are outside of their field.
肯定有人能做个通才，从整体角度来思考这个问题。
So there's gotta be somebody out there who can be the generalist, can, like, think about it holistically.
这简直太无知了。
That seems so ignorant.
这实在是太...
It's it's
这就是现在科学的现状。
the it's this day of science now.
现在的科学，已经细分成了无数个微小领域。
Like, the science is is, you know, like a field of micro specialties.
你想喝点咖啡吗？
Would you like some coffee?
好啊。
Yeah.
来一点就行。
I'll take a little.
你倒的时候看起来真不错。
That looks good when you're pouring it.
这台机器也特别亮堂。
It's also a very shiny press.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
你懂的。
You got that.
干杯，先生。
Cheers, sir.
干杯。
Cheers.
喝咖啡对身体有好处吗？
Is coffee good for you?
咖啡简直太棒了。
Coffee is awesome.
咖啡对身体的好处简直让人吃惊。
Coffee is shockingly good for you.
说说看。
Talk to me.
走吧。
Let's go.
咖啡对身体有多好，这事儿真的疯狂到难以置信。
It's it is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you.
我被这些证据的力度彻底震惊了。
I've I've been, like, startled by the, like, power of the evidence.
对。
Yeah.
我都读过。
I've read both.
我读过《咖啡有害论》，但因为我自己有偏见，所以没当真。
I've read It's Bad For You, and I dismissed it because I I'm biased.
我也超爱喝咖啡。
And I love coffee.
我就觉得，这味道实在太棒了。
And I just I just it it just tastes too good.
感觉真是
It feels
太棒了。
too good.
我喜欢。
I like it.
它就是
It's
但我读过很多关于它的好处。
But I've read a lot of benefits about it.
我觉得这是最理想的补充品。
I think it's the best possible supplement.
真的吗？
Really?
你把它当成补充剂？
You think of it as a supplement?
我觉得这全是因为线粒体功能在起作用。
I it's the and I think it's all due to mitochondrial function.
我觉得它能让你的线粒体飞速运转。
I think it it makes your mitochondria just spin.
你懂的。
You know?
是因为咖啡因，还是咖啡本身？
And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself?
是咖啡豆的原因吗？
Is it Is the coffee bean?
我的意思是，我觉得是咖啡因，但我也不会惊讶于咖啡里还有别的成分在起作用，毕竟茶的效果就没咖啡这么明显。
You know, I I mean, caffeine I think it's caffeine, but I I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing because, you know, like tea doesn't seem to quite like deliver the goods like like coffee does.
不是。
No.
但咖啡因其实是植物用来杀虫的。
But caffeine is actually the plants are making it to kill bugs.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
因为咖啡因会让昆虫的线粒体失控，直接炸掉。
Because it makes the bugs' mitochondria run out of control and they basically like blow up.
它对我们也有类似作用，但我们体内有其他机制能控制这种过度激活。
It does that to us, but we have these other governors that come in and slow down that ramp up.
所以我们能享受到提神的效果，却不会出问题。
So we get the nice ramp up without the explosion.
所以这其实是好事。
So so it's good.
所以这么说的话，我们能更高效地产生能量，而且对身体的损耗也更小。
So it makes if if you know, we we produce energy more efficiently with less wear and tear.
光听这个我就够了。
That's all I need to hear.
我决定继续喝。
I'm in.
我真的超爱咖啡。
I just love coffee.
我可不会戒掉。
I'm not giving it up.
不过我听不少人提到，迈克尔·波伦讲过一个特别有意思的亲身经历。
But I've heard many people say that Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote.
他曾经为了做实验，停喝咖啡三四个月，后来再喝一口，说感觉像吃了致幻剂一样。
He laid off coffee for, I think, three or four months as an experiment, and then he had a cup of coffee, and he said it was like taking a psychedelic.
是啊。
Yeah.
他说，那种感觉实在太棒了，效果特别强烈。
He said, I just felt so amazing, and it would the the the effect was so profound.
他说，他本来只想偶尔喝一次，但后来又不知不觉回到了老样子。
He said, I really wanted to do it only that way where I only take it, you know, very rarely because but then I fell right back into
回到了我的生活。
my world.
完全回去了。
Right back.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我记得那篇文章。
Like, I remember that that article.
写得真好。
It was great.
你还说，那些研究咖啡因的专家自己根本都不碰这东西。
And, also, you said none of the, like, the caffeine researchers touched the stuff.
我觉得这不太对劲。
I'm like, that's not good.
但他还是立马又回去喝了，我看他就是个铁杆咖啡爱好者。
But, yeah, he he went right back to it, and I think he's a a a a proud coffee drinker.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
He is.
他确实又回去喝了。
He went right back to it.
那你有没有跟那些批评你的皮肤科医生聊过？
But so have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you?
没有。
No.
但我其实挺想的。
But I'd like to, actually.
我觉得。
I think
他们是愿意谈，还是避而不谈？
Are they willing or is have they avoided them?
到目前为止，他们确实一直回避。
They they have so far really avoided.
他们就说，我们还不准备去审视这些研究。
Like, they they they just say, We're not ready to look at any of that research.
天啊，这太奇怪了。
God, that's so weird.
我觉得这种情况会改变。
I think it's gonna change.
我觉得，事实上，我说过，光疗医学在未来十年到二十年内会变得非常重要。
I think actually, I said, I think light medicine is actually gonna become very important in the next ten, twenty years.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。