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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
让我的一天充满活力。
Train my day.
晚上听乔·罗根播客，全天都是。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
嘿，帕特。
Hey, Pat.
见到你真好。
Good to see you.
你也是。
You too.
谢谢邀请我来。
Thanks for having me.
不用客气。
My pleasure.
没错。
Yeah.
你做过多少期播客了？
How many podcasts have you done?
我不太清楚。
I don't know.
具体数字说不上来，但可能有几十期吧。
I don't know the count, but maybe tens.
我们之前在大堂聊天的时候，就聊到了这个。
Well, when we were talking, we were talking in the lobby.
我当时就想，你这个人真不错，特别适合当嘉宾，因为我们聊到了古印度典籍，你跟我讲的那东西，听起来简直像核弹一样。
I was like, this good dude would be a good guest because we were talking about ancient Hindu scriptures where you were talking to me about something that sounds like a nuclear bomb.
是的
Yeah.
我当时就想，哦。
And I was like, oh.
布拉马斯特拉。
The Brahmastra.
我得好好了解一下这个。
I need to know more about this.
对。
Yeah.
布拉马斯特拉是《摩诃婆罗多》里的一部分。
So the Brahmastra is part of Mahabharata.
我的意思是，你之前提过好几次《摩诃婆罗多》了。
I mean, you've talked about Mahabharata in a bunch of various
对。
and yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
《摩诃婆罗多》是印度两大史诗之一。
So the Mahabharata is one of the two Hindu epics.
另一部是《罗摩衍那》。
The other one is Ramayan.
但《摩诃婆罗多》更有趣。
But Mahabharata's more interesting.
它更复杂。
It's more complicated.
里面交织着许多不同的故事。
It's like a lot of different stories interleaved together.
而梵天之箭，就像氢弹一样。
And the Brahmastra is the equivalent of the hydrogen bomb.
它是怎么被描述的？
And how is it described?
它被描述成一种大规模杀伤性武器，能彻底消灭整个人类群体。
It's described as a weapon of, like, mass destruction Gonna annihilate, like, human population.
无论如何都不能使用。
Should not be used at any cost.
这背后有一种道德契约。
There's, like, a moral contract.
你必须严重违背诸多道德准则，才配得上使用它。
Like, you you clearly have to be, like, you know, violating so many things at at a deeply moral level to even, like, wield it.
实际上，并不是人人都能用，能接触到它的人很少。
And it's not actually a lot it's not actually accessible to most warriors.
那个时代，全世界大概只有两位战士被允许使用它。
There's probably, like, two warriors in the world in in in in that era who were allowed to use it.
而且必须通过特殊的传承方式才能获得。
And and it and it has to be passed through special access.
得由师父亲自把使用它的秘密传授给你。
Like, a teacher has to, like, pass it on to you, the secret, to use it.
简直就像核密码一样，你这么想的话。
Almost like a new you think about it as like the equivalent of the nuclear code.
对吧？
Right?
阿周那就拥有它。
And Arjuna had it.
《摩诃婆罗多》里有个叫阿周那的角色，他是被允许使用这力量的。
This this this particular character in Mahabhar called Arjuna, he was allowed to use it.
而另一个人呢，阿周那的老师叫德罗纳，德罗纳有个儿子叫阿什瓦塔曼。
And then this other person was this basically, Arjuna had a teacher named Dorona, and Drona had a son named Ashwatama.
阿什瓦塔曼一直嫉妒阿周那。
And Ashwatama was always jealous of Arjuna.
阿周那不是德罗纳的儿子，却是他最出色的弟子。
Arjuna was not Drona's son, but he was his model disciple.
所以德罗纳就把梵天之箭的秘密传给了他。
And so Drona passed on the secret of the Brahmastra to him.
德罗纳的儿子也想要这个能力，因为是自己的儿子，德罗纳还是把秘密传给了他，尽管这孩子远不如阿周那出色。
And Drona's son also wanted it, but because it was his son, he also passed on the secret to his son even though the son wasn't as good as Arjuna.
战争期间，阿周那和德罗纳分属敌对阵营。
And at a there was the during the war, Arjuna and Drona fought on the opposite sides.
这事儿吧，说到底就是命运弄人。
It it's it's just, you know, circumstances.
结果他父亲在战场上死了。
And and and and his and his dad died.
阿周那的老师，也就是阿什瓦塔曼的父亲，在战争中阵亡了。
Ashutama's dad, the teacher died in the war.
儿子一怒之下，直接释放了梵天之箭。
And so the son got mad and, like, unleashed the Brahmastra.
幸好毗湿奴亲自出手，才阻止了这股毁灭力量，保住了整个世界。
And Lord Krishna had to come and save save the planet to not not get that destruction force.
《摩诃婆罗多》有多久了？
How old is the Mahabharata?
关于这一点，说法可多了，我也不敢肯定到底咋回事。
Again, it's there's a lot of different opinions on this, so I don't actually know for sure.
我听说至少有五百年到两千五百年历史了。
My understanding is is at least a 500 to 2,500 years old.
最少也有五百年了。
Like like, 500 years ago is the minimum.
最多的话，能追溯到两千五百年以前。
2,500 years ago is the maximum.
所以这件事就发生在那千年之间的某个时候。
So it happened in some period in in that thousand year time frame between that.
而且到现在，很多人还是搞不清楚，其中有多少是后来被神化了的。
And there's still, like it's it's still unclear if, like, a lot of it is just, like, you know, been mythologized.
说不定当年真发生的，就是一场家族内部的战争。
And what actually happened was just a war between kins.
当时有两个阵营，一个是般度族，一个是俱卢族。
There were two groups of people, the Pandavas and the Karavas.
每一边都觉得自己在为正义和权利而战，但归根结底，说白了就是一场争夺王位的战争。
And, you know, each side thought they were fighting for their own rights and justice, but at at the end of the day, you can crudely understand it as, like, essentially fight for the kingdom.
说白了，上一代有两个兄弟，他们各自有一大堆孩子，这些孩子为了继承权打得不可开交。
Basically, they were like there there was a previous generation and two brothers, and they and both the brothers had a bunch of kids, and those kids were warring to get the next in line.
最后演变成了一场大规模战争，各方还拉来了不少盟友参战。
And that ended up being like a massive war, and a bunch of other allies fought on each sides.
这场战争中用到了许多极其厉害的武器。
And so many amazing weapons were used as part of the war.
这些武器的描述细致到令人难以置信，细节非常惊人。
And a lot of these weapons are, like, extremely like like, describe an extreme level of detail that is pretty incredible.
比如，有很多关于精准制导武器的详细记载。
Like, the there's a lot of detail around, like, targeted weapons.
你可以明确锁定目标，然后直接瞄准射击。
So you could precisely identify a target and just shoot at that.
然后是大规模的……
And then large Does
它有解释过这种武器具体是什么吗？
it explain, like, what the weapon is?
是的。
Yeah.
有一种叫‘德维亚斯特拉’的武器，能精准锁定任何一个人或一群人，然后自动飞过去执行攻击，简直就像半自主武器。
So there's one weapon called the Deviastra where you can just specifically target any any particular person or a group, and it would just automatically direct itself and do it, almost like a semiautonomous weapon.
还有，克里希纳神有一件叫‘达尚·恰克拉’的武器。
And then Lord Krishna had this weapon called this darshan chakra.
其实就是个飞盘。
It's basically a discus.
你只要把它扔出去，它就会自己找到目标，砍下对方的头，然后自动飞回你手里，对吧？
And then you can just release it, and it'll go and specifically identify somebody and chop off their head and come back to your you you right?
它完全是自动导航的。
It it self directs itself.
让我特别惊讶的是，这些武器的智能化程度真高，不管是半自主还是全自主，都能锁定人或者一群士兵，自己飞过去完成任务，然后再回到主人手中。
So my what I was amazed by is how interesting it is in terms of all the autonomy in the weapons, semi autonomy or autonomy, where the weapons could just be directed at people or, like, directed at, you know, a group of soldiers, and it will just go and do its job and come back to the wielder.
还有好多不同的神兵，比如毗耶娑箭、伐楼拿箭、那伽箭。
And there were so many different asras, the Vyastra, Varunastra, Nagastra.
拉玛箭显然是相当于氢弹级别的终极武器。
Ramastra is obviously the ultimate the the hydrogen bomb equivalent.
这些武器在典籍里都有详细记载，包括谁能使用、怎么使用。
And all of these are, like, described in a lot of detail and, like, who has access to it.
当然，这些描述被神话化了，说箭是长在你肩胛骨后面的。
And, of course, it's it's mythologized, so it's described as just like these arrows in your, like, in back of your shoulders.
但其实你可以理解为，某人掌握着大量先进武器。
But you could you could understand it as, like, you know, somebody having just access to a lot of weapons.
谁力量强大，谁就能去征服、殖民，扩张势力。
And then whoever was powerful would go capture and colonize and, like, gain power.
本质上，这是一场亲戚之间的内斗。
And, essentially a a fight between a group of cousins.
这个故事的核心就是这么回事。
That that that that's the bottom line of that story.
如果我们把历史看作是从原始人一步步发展到今天的线性过程，
Now if we think of history as this linear progression from caveman to
没错。
us Yeah.
当我们听说《摩诃婆罗多》里记载了两千多年前就已存在的自主武器，
And we hear about autonomous weapons that were written in the Mahabharata somewhere around 2,000 plus years ago.
我们就会说，这不过是神话罢了。
We go, well, mythology.
对。
Yeah.
但假如人类文明曾经经历过兴衰更替，发生过某种灾难——比如小行星撞击、地极偏移，等等，
But if not, if there's been some sort of rise and fall of civilization, if there has been catastrophic, whatever it is, asteroid impacts, shifting of the poles, whatever it
是啊。
is Yeah.
这些灾难造成了巨大的破坏。
That's caused great disasters.
你可以想象，这些人是在回忆一个曾经存在高度发达文明的时代，他们描述的就是那个时期的情况。
You can imagine that these people are remembering a time where there was some sort of very advanced civilization, and this is what they're describing.
假设你确信曾经存在过一个技术极其先进的文明，而我们又有像吉萨金字塔这类证据，表明他们确实拥有先进技术——那他们到底是怎么做到的？
Like, if you knew for a fact that there had been a great advanced technologically advanced civilization, when we have evidence that they had some technology like the Pyramids Of Giza and stuff, like, how did you do that?
我也不知道。
I don't how Yeah.
这其中肯定涉及某种先进技术。
There's some technology involved.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但我们并没有关于这种技术的直接证据。
But we don't have evidence of the technology.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果我们真的知道，如果能确定的话，你一看《摩诃婆罗多》就会觉得，这讲的真是历史。
But if we did, if we knew for a fact, you would look at the Mahabharata and go, oh, this is history.
他们只是用当时能理解的粗浅方式来描述，比如把箭说成是半自主无人机，而不是像我们现在这样。
They're just explaining it in a a kind of crude contemporary way for the time arrows instead of, you know, semiautonomous drones Yeah.
而且箭头上还带着爆炸的头颅。
With exploding heads on them.
对啊。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们现在不就是这样的吗？
I mean, that's what we have now.
他们描述的那些东西，全都在我们这儿出现了。
All those things that they're describing.
氢弹、半自主和全自主无人机。
Hydrogen bomb, semiautonomous and autonomous drones.
我的意思是，现在连全自动的战斗机都有了。
I mean, they have they have autonomous fighter jets now.
他们现在根本不需要人了。
Like, they don't need people anymore.
我们其实已经身处这个时代了。
Like, this we're we're in that area right now.
所以当你读到《摩诃婆罗多》里这类描述时，就会想，嗯，原来如此。
So when you read about something like that from the Mahabharata, go like, okay.
那时候到底发生了什么？
What what was really going on?
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
我一直对这些史诗着迷，它们对武器的描述细致入微——谁有权限使用、需要什么身份才能接触、战争中如何运用，还有士兵的各种阵型。
I mean, that that's always been my fascination with with those epics and the level of detail at which they describe all these weapons and who had access, different levels of access, the status required to have access, and how it was used in the wars, different formations of the soldiers.
它们甚至有各种离奇的阵型，比如把军队排成莲花状，或者一种叫‘车轮阵’的，字面意思就是一圈圈同心圆的结构。
Like, they had all these, like, crazy formation structures, like forming the army like a lotus, forming the army like a you know, there's something called a chakra vihara, like a like, literally, like, it has to have concentric circles.
所以你不可能直接进入最内圈，必须先穿过外层，而每当你试图突破时，两侧的部队随时可能把你击倒。
So you cannot, like, actually get into the innermost circle without going through the outer circles, and then you can get killed by each of the flanks whenever you're trying to enter in.
而破解这些阵型——也就是‘vyuhas’——的秘诀，只有极少数人知道。
And the secret of how to actually break into these viyuhas, vyuhas means formations, was only known to a few people.
这简直太不可思议了。
And it it it's it's it's it's incredible.
你可以想想，嗯，确实如此。
Like, you could say, okay.
要能想象出这么复杂的战场布局，还描述得这么生动，那个人一定极其出色。
Like, somebody had to be extremely skillful to have that sort of, like, visualizations and imaginations of describing a story like that.
托尔金在《指环王》里构建的细节确实了不起，这一点毋庸置疑。
And and, obviously, like, Tolkien has done an amazing job with Lord of the Rings, you know, in creating so much detail.
但与此同时，很多东西其实也真实地反映在了历史中。
At the same time, like, a lot of it actually coming through in real life in some form.
当然，武器不是完全一样，但那种风格相似，让人不禁怀疑，当时是不是真有类似的东西存在？
Again, not exactly the same weapons, but similar style makes you wonder, was there actually something around then?
人们已经在这些地方进行过多次考古挖掘。
And people have tried excavations in all these areas.
《摩诃婆罗多》里主要提到两个区域。
There's, like, two main areas in the Mahabharata.
哈斯ina普尔是那个王国的名字。
Hasinapur was the name of the kingdom.
人们在那一带挖掘，发现了一些可能属于那个时代的文物。
And people have done excavations around there and have, like, found some artifacts that might date back to those years.
但史诗里描述的某些细节，和现实情况对不上。
But there are also some details that are described in the epics that don't quite align with reality.
比如，那个时代的所有主要战士都被描述得非常高大，七英尺、八英尺高，之类的。
For example, all the men, all the main warriors in in that era were described as, like, very tall, very big, seven, eight feet, whatever.
你知道的吧。
You know?
我也不记得具体数字。
I don't even know exact numbers.
但考古学家的历史研究也指出，那个时代生活在这些地区的人，身高很可能不超过六英尺。
But but our hist studies by archaeologists also say that people who lived in those years in in those regions were probably not more than six feet tall.
所以到底哪些是真实的，哪些是夸张的，目前还不太清楚，我们还得继续深入探索。
So it's it's not clear exactly, like, what happened, what was correct, what was not correct, and, you we just have to keep probing more.
但我觉得特别有意思的是，那些神圣文本里可能只传递了一部分信息给后代，中间经历了大量重新解读。
But I find the idea fascinating to think of like what could have existed in sacred texts that was only partially communicated to the next generation and having a lot of like reinterpretations.
还有一件特别值得思考的事，就是吠陀数学。
Another thing that is very interesting to think about is Vedic math.
简单说，吠陀数学是印度一些人从小学习的一种数学方法。
So that basically, Vedic math is like a branch of mathematics that, you know, some people in India are grown up learning.
我自己也读过这方面的内容。
Like, I I I read it myself too.
有些人专门学这个，就是为了在考试时提升心算能力，比如考GMAT、GRE之类的。
And some people actually practice it just to be sharper at mental math for doing their exams, like GMAT and things things like that, GRE.
它在《吠陀经》里有一句话，大概是说‘从末位取一，从首位取二’之类的。
And it has like a line in the Vedas that says, oh, like one from the last digit, two from the first digit, whatever.
你知道吧？
You know?
乘两个数的方法有好多，比如97乘96。
So many different ways of multiplying two different numbers like 97 times 96.
比如，用100减去两个数的个位，结果放右边，再把十位数相乘，结果放左边。
Oh, like subtract the last two digits, put it in the right, multiply the first digits, put it in the left.
这就是答案了。
That's the that's the result.
然后你就会想，等等。
And then you you wonder, like, oh, wait.
《梨俱吠陀》可太古老了。
The Rig Veda is so old.
它是现存最古老的圣典之一。
It's as old as is is the oldest sacred text out there.
它怎么会涉及计算方法呢？
How is it describing computation?
这感觉才对劲。
That feels Right.
太不真实了。
Very unreal.
他们那时候真能理解这么高级的计算方法吗？
Like, do they actually know or understand advanced forms of computation even back in those days?
而且
And
《梨俱吠陀》到底有多古老？
And how old is Rigveda?
我也不太清楚它究竟有多久的历史。
I don't exactly know how old it is.
我们不如去Perplexity查一下？
Why don't we put that into Perplexity?
好。
Yeah.
我们查一下吧
Let's do
好啊
that.
我们去看看吧
Let's find out.
对
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
从技术上讲，它是现存最古老的圣典
It is technically the oldest sacred text out there.
有意思的是，我很好奇这些故事在被写下来之前到底流传了多久
And so what's interesting is I wonder how old the stories were by the time they were written down.
就像《圣经》一样，在被记录下来之前，这些故事可能已经口口相传了很多年
Like, how much of it is relayed person to person for years and years just like the Bible before it's ever actually written down.
学者通常认为《梨俱吠陀》的成书时间在公元前1500到1200年之间。
Scholars usually date the composition of the Rig Veda to about 1,500 to 1,200 BCE.
所以它最古老的那部分，到现在已经有大约三千二百年到三千七百年了。
So its oldest layer is roughly 3,200, 3,700 years old today.
我的意思是，几乎每个古代文明都有大洪水的故事，人人都有末日传说。
Like, I if there really was, like, every ancient culture has a story of a flood, every everyone they all have an apocalypse.
马哈巴哈拉特也有类似的情况。
And Marmar Barth had the same thing.
是不是
Was it
《摩诃婆罗多》里也提到过一场巨大的灾难，差不多像海啸一样。
Mahabharata had the same thing where there was a big, like, almost like a tsunami like thing.
我不太记得具体叫什么名字了，但那是克里希纳神的王国多尔卡的覆灭。
I don't exactly know what it was called, but that was the collapse of lord Krishna's kingdom Dwarka.
战争之后死了很多人，但也有幸存者。
After the war, a lot of people died, but some people survived.
就连那些幸存下来的人，后来也因灾难或内部争斗而全军覆没。
And even those who survived got wiped out by a calamity or or, like, some kinda, like, a fight among themselves.
那个时代参与其中的大多数人，其实都已经去世了。
And most of the people who participated in that era actually died.
就在这里。
Here it is.
远古时期的……该怎么说呢？
The primordial how do you say it?
摩奴？
Manu?
对。
Yeah.
摩奴大洪水。
Manu flood.
这是印度教经典的大洪水传说：正直的国王摩奴得到一条神鱼的警示，告诉他一场即将毁灭人类的洪灾即将来临。
Classic Hindu great flood myth where the righteous king Manu is warned by a divine fish about an imminent deluge that will destroy humanity.
他造了一艘船，带上全家上了船。
He builds a boat, loads it with his family.
这就像知道诺亚方舟的故事。
It's it's like knowing the ark.
其实是同一个故事。
It's the same thing.
船上还载着种子和动物，他把船系在化身为鱼的神的角上，由神拖着船安全航行，直到洪水退去，世界重新繁衍。
With seeds and animals, ties it to the horn of the god in fish form, which tows the boat to safety until the waters recede and the world is repopulated.
所有的文明都有类似的故事。
They all have the same story.
对。
Yeah.
这才是最不可思议的地方。
That's what's really crazy.
印度哲学里有一个概念，叫做‘劫’。
There is a there is a concept in Hindu philosophy called the yugas.
对。
Mhmm.
我正在读一本关于
I'm I'm reading a book about
这个的书。
it right now.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以啊，有好几种优迦，每一种都长达几千年。
So there's, like, different yugas, and yugas are, like, thousands of years.
这个观念认为，优迦是不断循环的。
And the concept is that the yugas keep cycling around.
我们现在正处于迦利优迦时期。
And so, like, we are in the Kali Yuga right now.
再之前是德瓦帕拉尤加。
And before that, it was a Dwapara Yuga.
那会儿发生了《摩诃婆罗多》的大部分故事。
That's when most of Mahabharata happened.
再之前是特雷塔尤加，那时候发生了《罗摩衍那》。
And before that, there was a Tretay Yuga where the Ramayan happened.
再之前还有另一个尤加。
And before that, there was another Yuga.
卡利尤加之后是什么？
What is next after Kala Yuga?
不是这样的。
It no.
卡利尤加之后什么都没有。
There is nothing next after Kala Yuga.
它会重新回到第一个阶段。
It goes back to the first one.
我一时想不起第一个Yuga叫什么名字了。
I forgot the name of the first Yuga.
因为我看的那本解读说，我们已经不在Kali Yuga了，Kali Yuga在二十世纪就结束了，Dwapara Yuga是从那时候开始的。
Because the what the interpretation that I'm reading is that we're not in Kala Yuga anymore and that Kali Yuga ended in the nineteen hundreds and Dwapara Yuga started then.
不对。
No.
不对。
No.
我们现在就处在Kali Yuga。
We are in Kali Yuga right now.
完全正确。
100%.
完全没错。
100%.
那为什么大家会有不同的说法呢？
So why do people have different interpretations?
就是说，有没有一种说法是
Like, is there a Is
这是真的吗？
that true?
对。
Yeah.
有一种是某位上师的观点。
There's like a guru interpretation.
有一位具体的上师
There's like one specific guru
我明白了。
I see.
他认为卡利纪在二十世纪就结束了。
That has this interpretation that Kali Yuga ended in the nineteen hundreds.
好的。
Okay.
而且我们正在向前走。
And that we're moving on.
挺有意思的。
Interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
但我不确定谁对谁错，毕竟这周期太庞大了。
But I don't know who's right because it's it's an enormous cycle.
对吧？
Right?
人类的周期啊。
The cycles of humanity.
对。
Yeah.
上千年呢。
Thousands of years.
是的。
Yeah.
几千年了。
Thousands of years.
没错。
And So Yeah.
所以这就是四个亚迦。
So these are the four Yugas.
而且。
And
那为什么人们对这些有不同的理解呢？
So why do people have different interpretations?
我来跟你说说我正在读的那本书。
One let's I'm gonna tell you the book I'm reading.
是的。
Yeah.
你去看看这本书是不是被驳斥了，年轻的杰米。
See if this book is discredited, young Jamie.
作者叫大卫·斯坦尼茨。
It is it's by a guy named David Steinowitz.
斯坦尼茨。
Stein Steinmetz.
大卫·斯坦尼茨。
David Steinmetz.
这本书叫《诸纪》。
The book is called the Yugas.
挺有意思的。
Interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
问题是，当有人或者某个灵性导师有自己的解读时，往往和原意对不上。
I mean, the the the problem is when someone's got their own interpretation or some guru's interpretation, it doesn't totally align.
很难说谁对谁错。
It's hard to know who's right and who's wrong.
是的。
Yeah.
理解我们被掩盖的过去、正在崛起的能量、时代，以及开悟的未来，关键就在这里。
Key to understanding our hidden past, emerging energy, age, and enlightened future.
是的。
Yeah.
那我们再把刚才那段回放一遍。
So that go back up to that again.
这段话在简介里有写。
So this is in the description.
你看看上面怎么说的？
See what it says there?
书中提到，1894年，一位印度智者向古斯解释了我们被隐藏的过去，也解释了当今的趋势和未来的开悟。
Where it says in 1894, an Indian sage gave an Gus an explanation not only for our hidden past, but for the trends of today and for future enlightenment.
所以呢，他完全是基于某个人的解读来说的。
So there's, like, one guy's interpretation that this guy is going off of.
我觉得区别在于，他认为瑜伽周期是两万四千年，而我觉得可能要长得多。
I guess the difference might be that he thinks the yoga cycle is twenty four thousand years, whereas I think it's probably much longer than that.
对。
Yeah.
四个亚格加起来是四百三十二万年。
Four Yugas together is four million three hundred and twenty thousand years.
你有没有觉得特别荒谬？
You know what's really nutty?
是啊。
Yeah.
特别离谱的一点是，无论是苏美尔的古文献，还是古埃及的一些记载，都提到大洪水之前，有些国王统治了上千年。
One of the really nutty things is both in the ancient Sumerian texts and in some of the ancient Egyptian texts, there's depictions before the flood of people who reigned for thousands of years as kings.
对。
Yeah.
这其实挺常见的。
And it's common.
而且不止一处，不同地区的苏美尔文献里都多次提到过。
It's not it's and it's also they're referenced multiple times in different scripts that are from different parts of what was Sumer at the
时代。
time.
是的。
Yeah.
这真的太奇怪了。
It it's really weird.
真的特别奇怪。
It's really weird.
一旦年代够久远，他们就直接当成确凿的历史了，只要能确认某人统治过某个时期。
They take it as established history once it gets to a certain age, once they get into, like, whatever the age is where they can verify that this person was the king for a certain period of time.
但这些记载和那些统治了六千年的人，全写在同一份文献里。
But it's all in the same text as people that reigned for six thousand years.
对。
Yeah.
然后有时候一下子就把整个文明给抹掉了。
It's it's And then one one even just wipes out the whole thing.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实也跟费米悖论有点关系。
And, I mean, this is also somewhat, like, tangentially related to the Fermi paradox.
没错。
Mhmm.
你懂的吧？
You know?
要是你假设地球上真的发生过这些事——整个文明说没就没，那我们一直好奇的问题就更突出了：外星人到底在哪？
Like, if if you assume all these things are happening on Earth itself, that entire civilizations are getting wiped out, You and and, like, we always wonder you you've explored this topic the most, and where are the aliens?
没错。
Right.
还有各种说法，比如说，好吧。
And there are different arguments that, like, okay.
我们还没找到外星文明的原因，是因为存在一个伟大的过滤器。
Like, the reason we haven't quite found that is because the great filter exists.
有个挺有趣的理论，我纯粹是觉得好玩才提一下：几乎所有文明在科技上都会飞速发展，要么被一场灾难毁灭，要么造出了方向错误的通用人工智能，结果被AI给灭了。
And there is, like, one entertaining theory that I like just for the sake of entertainment is almost all civilizations end up advancing technologically a lot, and either a calamity wipes them out or, like, they build some misaligned AGI and then AGI wipes them out.
所以它们根本没机会让我们发现它们的存在。
And and because of that, they never actually like end end up being visible to us.
还有其他理论认为，是我们还没造出能去寻找它们的冯·诺依曼探测器。
Or the other theories that like they're like we haven't quite built the von Neumann probes to actually go find them.
这两种说法都有道理。
And both of them are plausible.
说到底，除非我们真派出去足够多的探测器，否则根本没法确定哪个是对的。
And it it you know, the there's there's no clear way to, like, know unless we actually, like, send out enough probes.
本期节目由BetterHelp赞助。
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
我们在心理健康方面已经走了很长一段路，但还有很多事要做。
We've come a long way with mental health, but there's still work to be done.
BetterHelp 2026年的污名报告调查了两千名美国人，发现85%的人认为寻求帮助是明智的，但74%的人说社会并不鼓励这么做。
BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed two Americans revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so.
一个能帮上忙的办法，就是更开放地谈论心理健康问题，鼓励大家去求助，而不是去评判。
One thing that can help is to have more open conversations about mental health struggles and encourage people to seek out help, not judge them.
你知道还有什么能帮上忙的吗？
And you know what else helps?
BetterHelp。
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他们让连接专业心理咨询师变得很简单，而且真的有效。
They make connecting with a professional therapist simple, and it actually works.
他们的实时咨询平均评分高达4.9分（满分5分）。
Their live sessions have an average rating of 4.9 out of five.
别让偏见挡住了你寻求帮助的路。
Don't let stigma stand in the way of support.
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网址是 betterhelp.com/jre。
That's better,help,.com/jre.
可能性有很多。
There's a bunch of possibilities.
我的意思是，可能性多到数不清，比如他们可能在观察，但选择不干涉，而我们正处在一个进化循环中。
I mean, there's almost too many to count, but there's the possibility that they are observing and that they don't wanna interfere and that we are on some sort of evolutionary cycle
对。
Yeah.
文化演进、文明演进的循环。
Cycle of cultural evolution, civilization evolution.
没错。
Yeah.
有一件事来自苏美尔文本和那些描绘古老时期的象形文字，你该怎么说呢？
And one of the things about this the the crazy ages that come from the Sumerian text and from the ancient the hieroglyphs that depict the how do you say it?
塞普迪？
Septedi?
不是。
No.
我到底该怎么念这个单词？
How am I saying that?
那个古文是什么来着？我们之前和扎希·哈瓦斯聊过，他否认它存在。
What is that text, that ancient remember we talked about it with Zahi Hawass and he denied its existence?
泽佩佩？
Zeppepe?
是这个吗？
Is that it?
不管怎样，你面对的是那些统治了数千年之久的国王们。
Either way, you're dealing with these kings that reigned for thousands and thousands of years.
大卫·辛克莱现在正深入这项研究，他们在开发延缓衰老的药物。
Well, you know, David Sinclair is in the middle of this research now that's they're working on life extension drugs.
是的。
Yeah.
就是那种能实际应用的药物。
Like, that are actionable.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就是这个。
That's it.
泽佩皮。
Zeppepi.
是的。
Yeah.
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我听说过
I've heard
这事儿。
of that.
但这一点特别奇怪。
So these the but this is what's so weird.
他们研究象形文字时，看到某个阶段就会说：哦，胡夫。
If they look at hieroglyphs, they get to a certain point, and they're like, oh, Khufu.
他确实存在过。
He was real.
这人是真实存在的。
This guy was real.
所有这些人都是真实存在的。
All these people were real.
是的。
Yeah.
但一说到那些统治了几千年的君主，他们又说：这纯粹是胡扯。
But then they get back to these guys that reigned for thousands of years, and they go, oh, that was just horseshit.
对。
Yeah.
但是
But
那为什么所有这些文明都有跟大洪水之前时间线吻合的故事呢？
but why is it that all these people have these stories that align with this timeline that's pre flood?
故事都一模一样。
It's all like the same story.
是的。
Yeah.
而且如果你看看古印度典籍里描述的技术，会发现它们跟我们今天的技术惊人地相似。
And then if you're talking about these ancient Hindu scriptures that are discussing technology that seems remarkably similar technology that we have today
对。
Yeah.
拉马纳人用的基本上就是飞行汽车。
The Ramanas were flying cars, basically.
也许我们一百年后会拥有的东西，或者过去本可以走上的路。
And probably what we're going to have a hundred years from now or whatever it is, or or we could have gone that way in the past.
想象一下，假设我们遭遇了什么意外，还挺有意思的。
It's very entertaining to think of, like, let's say something happens to us.
对吧？
Right?
我不希望真出什么事，但假设真出了事，
I don't want anything to happen to but let's say something happens to us.
那时候的人会真相信我们曾经发射过可回收火箭吗？
And would people really believe you were, like, launching reusable rockets?
没错。
Right.
或者给澳洲的人打FaceTime视频？
Or making FaceTime calls to people in Australia?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就说我们今天做的这些事，其实都是特别了不起的，连最基本的东西都让人惊叹。
Like, even fundamental things, like, all we were doing today, I think it's all, like, incredible.
很多技术想法可能早就有人想到过，只是后来知识失传了，也没留下记录。
Like, there's there's a lot of things that could be just technological ideas or maybe people actually had it and the knowledge of it was lost, and it's not been documented.
没人传承下来，所以我们反而怀疑他们是不是真有过这些东西。
It's not been passed along, and so we are skeptical if they ever had it.
没错。
Yes.
于是我们又一遍遍地重新发明它们，不断重复这个循环。
And so we end up reinventing it in different forms again and again and again, and we keep cycling through this process.
这也可能是人类好奇心的自然发展过程。
Well, it also could be that this is the natural progression of human curiosity.
人类的好奇心和创造力总会朝着这些特定的方向发展。
The human curiosity and ingenuity always moves into these very particular ways.
比如，怎样才能最有效地打败敌人？
Like, what's the best way to defeat my enemies?
是的。
Yeah.
如果我们注定是具有领地意识的灵长类动物，那就总会想方设法战胜对手。
If we're always going to be territorial primates, we're always gonna wanna defeat our enemies.
我们总会想保护自己，不被入侵。
We're always gonna protect ourselves from being invaded.
所以随着科技发展，我们只会不断改进，但走的还是老路。
So we're gonna make better and and just with technological innovation, it just goes down the same path.
我们发明了子弹。
Oh, we figure out bullets.
后来又搞出了核武器。
Oh, we figure out nuclear bombs.
我们甚至都不需要真的用飞机了。
Well, we figure out well, we don't even have to use an actual plane.
我们可以用自主无人机来运送。
We can use an autonomous drone, and that delivers it.
再往上发展，就是人工智能，还有延长寿命的技术。
And then scale upwards and onwards and AI and and then also life extension.
如果这些人能建起金字塔，你知道，关于金字塔的建造时间有很多猜测，但我们就假设它们真是在二月建好的吧。
So if these people were able to make the pyramids, like, you know, they there's a lot of speculation as to the timeline of the pyramids, but let's just say they really built it February.
我们就假设那是很久以前的事。
Let's just say back then.
他们当时到底用的是什么工具？
What the fuck were they using?
你们那时候到底干了些什么？
Like, what were you what did you do?
那些石头离这里五百英里远，你们是怎么运下来的？
How did you get these stones down from the mountains that were 500 miles away?
那这个呢？
How about this one?
那这个呢？
How about that one?
对。
Yeah.
我们本来打算说到
We were gonna get to
这个肯定要讲。
that for sure.
这方面的内容多得不得了。
There's a ton no.
谢了，哪个都行。
Thank what's good good as any.
还有印度那些神庙，听说是整块石头雕出来的，你怎么看？
How about these temples that they find in India that are carved entirely out of one piece of stone?
你当时做了什么？
What did you do?
你是怎么做到的？
How did you do that?
这事儿发生多久以前了？
How long ago did this happen?
有多少座是埋在地下的，后来还得挖出来，然后琢磨这到底是什么？
How many of them were buried and then they had to uncover them and then, like, figure out, like, what is this?
是谁造的？
Who made it?
根本没时间线。
There's no timeline.
没人说得清。
No one really knows.
那时候根本找不到能完成这种工艺的工具证据。
There's no evidence of tools that were capable of doing this kind of work back then.
而且它们巨大、精美又完美。
And they're huge and beautiful and perfect.
它们还有独特的声学特性，几何结构简直太惊人了。
And they have, like, acoustic properties, and the geometry is fucking fantastic.
确实如此。
Yeah.
这太不可思议了。
It's nuts,
真是让人难以置信。
man.
真可惜。
Sad.
这些神庙的选址都经过精心设计，不仅建造地点特殊，还考虑到与海洋的距离，以及太阳和月亮产生的引力波，以确保产生正确的地震振动。
All of these temples were actually just built not just the the they were specifically the locations for them are picked out so that you get the right seismic vibrations over there in terms of, like, proximity to the ocean, the gravitational waves from the sun and the moon.
人们当时竟然达到了这样的水平
People actually made that level of, like
你看看这个，老兄。
Look at this, man.
想象一下，要把这座神庙从一块巨大的岩石上雕刻出来，得有多大的工程量。
Imagine the undertaking of carving that temple out of the side of a fucking giant piece of rock.
是的。
Yeah.
只要出一点差错，整个就完了。
You screw up one thing, and it's over.
那时候可没有模拟测试。
There's no simulations.
你只能直接动手开建。
You just have to, like, build it.
但他们当时靠的是什么？
But what did they have?
这才是关键问题。
This is the question.
你想想，要是搁现在，我们得怎么干这活儿。
Like, imagine today if we had to do this.
你看。
Look.
这事儿是能办到的。
It's possible.
这完全是一个可行的工程。
This is a possible endeavor.
能做到的。
It can be done.
是啊。
Yeah.
但你想想，得需要什么样的技术
But imagine what kind
才能把整个结构精确测绘出来，确保每个点之间的误差都控制在毫米级别，而且整座建筑都是从一块石头里雕出来的。
of technology would we we have to need to map it out to make sure that it was all precise, that it all I mean, it's precise within, like, millimeters from point to point, and everything is done out of one piece of stone.
他们到底是怎么做到的？
Like, what did they do?
是用凿子吗？
Was it chisels?
你真用凿子干的？
Did you do that with chisels?
这太不可思议了。
That's crazy.
你得磨多少次凿子？
How many times do have
你得把那该死的凿子磨多少回？
to sharpen your fucking chisel?
这简直疯了。
That's nuts.
还是说他们用了完全不同的方法？
Or do you have something completely different?
因为一些更精细的雕刻，你要是能找到这些就好了。
Because some of the more intricate ones see if you can find these.
这些寺庙里有些特别夸张的雕塑，是三维的，而且雕刻的细节是在雕塑内部完成的。
Some of the crazy ones inside these temples, there's sculptures that are three-dimensional, and they're carved, like, inside of the sculpture.
外面是一层，然后有很多开口，里面却雕得极其精细。
So there's, like, an outer area, and then there's these all these openings, and then inside, it's highly detailed.
你到底是怎么把手伸进去的？
Like, how'd you even reach in there?
上面只说他们用凿子和锤子，我觉得这不可能。
It just says they use chisel and hammers, and I don't think that's possum.
还得有精密的几何规划。
And careful geometric planning.
有人想做到这种程度。
People trying to do that.
他们说，一个人用锤子干十二个小时，可能连个轮廓都搞不出来，更别说做得完美又好看。
They said, like, this is how much work someone could do in, like, twelve hours with a a hammer, and they get nowhere, let alone, like, perfect and looking good.
是的
Yeah.
太不可思议了，真的。
It's nuts, man.
世界各地都有很多类似的证据，这真的很奇怪。
And there's a lot of evidence of stuff like that all over the world, which is really weird.
比如秘鲁的萨克塞瓦曼。
You have the stuff in Peru, like Sao Jose Juan.
你看那些石头，好像熔化后浇筑进去的一样，每块重达九百吨。
When you look at these stones, and it looks like they're melted into place, and they're 900 tons.
这到底是怎么做到的？
Like, what did you do?
对。
Yeah.
他到底是怎么把它们弄上去的？
How did he even get it up there?
他们到底是从哪儿弄来这些石头的？
How'd you where'd they get it?
他们是怎么把这么重的石头运上去的？
How'd you get it there?
他们是怎么把石头精准对齐的？
How'd you line it perfectly?
居然只用了十八年就建成了。
Built in only eighteen years.
他们怎么就能确定这一点？
How do they know that?
他们怎么就能确定这一点？
How do they know that?
是因为这事被归功于一位国王吗？
Because it's attributed to one king?
是的。
Yeah.
所以是克里斯蒂安一世国王，从七月到七月？
So king Christian the first, July to July?
也许吧。
Maybe.
我的意思是，你到底是怎么知道的？
I mean, how do you know, though?
对。
Yeah.
考古学家说，建造这座建筑本该花上他们一百年的时间。
They said archaeologists said it would've they calculated it would take them a hundred years to do it.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这地方啊，说实话，我也说不准。
I mean, this is where, like, you know I don't know.
不同的历史学家记载都不太一样，
Different historian accounts are all, like,
乱七八糟的。
muddled up.
你懂的吧。
You know?
是的。
Uh-huh.
这确实是个大问题。
Well, it's a real problem.
历史本身就是一个大问题。
History is a real problem.
但没错，这又回到了你之前说的那个点。
But, yeah, it goes back to, like, the thing you were saying.
对吧？
Right?
你明白吧？
You know?
不管哪个时代，有一点是共通的，那就是人类的好奇心。
What is one thing that's common across all these different ages is human curiosity.
所以，我想听听你对这个观点的看法。
So, I mean, that's something that, you know, I I would love to get your take on this.
我一直在琢磨一个概念，叫‘好奇心溢价’——最有效率、最成功的人，往往都是最有好奇心的人，他们擅长提出好问题，人生各个层面都表现得更出色。
Like, I I've been toying with this idea called the curiosity premium, which is the most effective people, the most successful people have always been the most curious people, the ones who have been good at asking the best questions, and they tend to do better in every aspect of their life.
你就是个很好的例子，所以我特别想听听你的看法。
And you're you're a good example of that, so that's why I I would love to get your take on this.
我之所以这么认为，是因为长期来看，那些不断提问的人往往能走得更远。
And the reason I believe that is because long term, people who continuously ask questions tend to do better.
他们赚得更多。
They make more money.
他们的生活质量也更高。
They have a higher quality of life.
他们很快乐。
They're happy.
他们的人际关系不断积累增长。
They have more compounding relationships.
别人觉得他们更有趣，于是他们的人际关系随着时间越积越深。
People find them more interesting, and so they compound their relationships over time.
所以，他们自然就成功了，但那种探索精神、内在的好奇心，并不会因为成功就停下来。
And so, naturally, they end up succeeding, but their spirit of inquiry, their intrinsic curiosity doesn't actually stop once they succeed.
相反，他们只是把这份好奇用得更专注了。
It only they just channelize it even more.
所以这种优势才会持续积累。
And so that's why it keeps compounding.
我认为，这可能是唯一真正让我们成为人的特质——在这个信息触手可及、获取速度远超以往的时代。
And I would argue that, like, it's the only quality it's the only, like, quality that makes us really human, you know, in in this world where we can seek a lot of information and get information way faster than ever before.
这似乎是自古以来、从最早的文字记载起，就一直存在的、人类共通的特质。
It feels like that's that one universal human quality that's existed since ancient time, since the oldest text.
事实上，在《梨俱吠陀》里，你就被明确鼓励去追求智慧，而不是财富。
Like, in fact, in in the Rig Veda, you're explicitly encouraged to seek wisdom more than wealth.
这并不仅仅是印度教特有的观念。
And it's not just an idea specific to Hinduism.
这个想法同样出现在《圣经》《古兰经》和《托拉》里。
That specific idea exists in the Bible, exists in the Quran, exists in the Torah.
宗教经典并不是在劝阻人们追求知识。
It's not that seeking well is admonished by religious texts.
相反，它们强调追求智慧才更重要。
It's actually that it's more important to seek wisdom.
你知道吗？我说你是这方面的典范，确实，你的播客规模很大，但你做节目的方式就是充满好奇，不断提问。
And, you know, like, you can that why I said you're a good example of that is, like, sure, you have a very, very large podcast, but the way you're running it is, like, you're just curious about a lot of things and asking a lot of questions.
我觉得，这种特质特别关键。
And I think that's that one quality that's very important.
所以我觉得，这是最古老的一种品质。
So and I feel like it's the oldest thing.
从古至今，我们唯一知道的就是保持好奇。
It's the only thing that we've known since ancient time, being curious.
我觉得这能激发别人，真正的求知欲确实有这种感染力。
Well, I I I think it's stimulating to people, and genuine curiosity is stimulating to other people.
当一个人真心对某件事感兴趣时，我也会被带动去好奇。
When when someone is genuinely curious about something, I become curious about it.
我觉得这种好奇是会传染的。
I think it's contagious.
而且这确实是一种真诚的品质，真正想弄明白一件事、对它产生兴趣，这种态度很可贵。
And I think that it's it's also an authentic quality, and I think there's there's something about really wanting to know something and being interested in something.
如果你有好奇心，通常就会不断提问，从而对事物有更深的理解。
And if you're curious, generally, you're gonna ask more questions about something so you have a deeper understanding of it.
无论你做什么事——运动、游戏，只要你更好奇，就更容易进步。
So if you're trying to do whatever you're trying to do, a sport, a game, you you'll probably get better at it because you're more curious.
因为你不会轻易下定论，而是会不断追问。
Because instead of just assuming things, you'll ask more questions.
你会重新审视这些事情。
You'll reexamine things.
这是最重要的人类品质之一，对我来说，也是最有吸引力的品质。
It's gen it's it's one of the most important human qualities, and to me, it's one of the most attractive human qualities.
一直都是这样。
It's always been.
每次遇到好奇的人，我都会特别感兴趣。
When I meet curious people, I'm always interested.
我总是会说，你跟我讲讲你对什么好奇，我也跟你讲讲我好奇什么。
I'm always like like, tell me what you're curious about, and I'll tell you what I'm curious about.
这个播客最初其实是因为，洛斯阿拉莫斯那边就是跟朋友随便聊聊。
Let's You know, it's it's and this podcast started out genuinely because of well, Los Alamos is just talking shit with friends.
对。
Mhmm.
但后来也引出了我最早的几位嘉宾之一，格雷厄姆·汉考克。
But it also led in to like, one of my very first guests actual guests was Graham Hancock.
是的
Mhmm.
就是因为我很好奇，因为我读过《众神的指纹》，也看过他讲话。
And it's just because I was curious because I had read Fingerprints of the Gods, and I'd seen him talk.
我看过他的演讲，就特别想了解。
I'd seen speeches, and I'm like, I wanna know.
你到底知道些什么？
Like, what do you know?
你觉得到底发生了什么？
What do you think is going on?
他也是个特别好奇的人，对古代历史的见解着迷得不得了。
And he's another guy, incredibly curious, and absolutely fascinated with his his takes on ancient history.
他谈论这个话题已经很久了。
He has been talking about this subject a long time.
他刚写《众神的指纹》的时候，我记得大概是1997年或者1998年左右吧。
And when he first when he first wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, I think that came out in like I wanna say it's, like, '97 or '98 or something like that.
我记得当时读这本书的时候，我很多受过教育的朋友都说，这完全是胡扯。
And I remember reading it, so many of my friends, you know, educated friends, this is horseshit.
你干嘛要关注这种东西？
Why are you paying attention to this?
但随着时间推移，越来越多的证据证明他是对的。
More and more and more as time goes on, it's been proven that he's correct.
时间线被重新推前了。
The timelines shifted back.
从那本书出版后，哥贝克力石阵以及周边遗址的发现，简直让人不得不承认——
And from the publication of that book, the discovery of Gilbekli Tepe and the surrounding area, like, it's like, okay.
至少在一万一千年前，地球上就发生过一些难以想象的事。
Now we realize, well, there was some crazy shit going on at the very least eleven thousand years ago.
是的。
Mhmm.
这样一来，人类文明的历史就被往前推了五千年。
So we pushed civilization back five thousand years.
所以，我们现在发现的只是冰山一角，还在不断有新发现。
So, like and this is just what we found now, and we keep finding things.
继续挖下去。
Keep digging.
继续找。
Keep looking.
然后你看看他们用无线电断层扫描在金字塔底下发现的东西，那些结构，你见过吗？
And then you see the stuff that they're finding underneath the pyramid with this radio tomography where they're looking under the pyramid that seems that they're structures under the we've seen that stuff?
我没看过那个。
I haven't seen that.
我认识参与这个项目的科学家。
I had the scientist that's involved in it.
他是意大利人，叫菲利波·比翁迪，曾经上过我的播客。
He's an Italian guy, Filippo Biondi, and he came on the podcast.
口音特别好听。
Wonderful accent.
对。
Mhmm.
几乎和你的不相上下。
Almost as good as yours.
太惊人了。
It was amazing.
他在描述这种技术的应用，说他们已经成功用在已知的金字塔和其他建筑结构上，实际上在意大利，有一台粒子对撞机就建在一座山底下。
But he's describing the use of this stuff and that they've used it successfully on known areas in pyramids, in other structures, and they can for in fact, they there's a in Italy, there is a particle collider that is underneath a mountain.
对。
Mhmm.
借助这种卫星技术，他们能精确描绘出这台位于地下约1200米的粒子对撞机。
And using this technology, which is satellite based technology, they get an accurate description of this particle collider that's I think it's 1,200 meters underground.
这东西到底在地下多深啊？
Like, how how far is that thing underground?
我们马上就知道了。
We'll find out.
但它是深埋在石头下面的。
But it's, like, deep under stone.
对。
Mhmm.
他们发现能准确地测出这个粒子对撞机的尺寸。
And they find that they they can get an accurate like, they could actually give you the dimensions of this particle collider.
他们甚至能拿出它的图像。
They have, like, an image of it.
同样的技术还显示，金字塔下方多个位置有柱状结构，宽达二十米，周围还缠绕着线圈。
And this same technology is showing that there's these columns underneath the pyramid in various places that are 20 meters wide, and they have coils around them.
他们根本不知道那是什么，而且整个结构规模不小。
They don't know what the hell they are, and they the whole structure of this thing, it's not small.
它深入地下将近一公里。
It goes almost a kilometer into the ground.
它的底部庞大得惊人，看起来明显是人工建造的。
There's, like, this enormous, like, bottom of it, and it seems like it's that's constructed.
所以他们觉得，好吧。
And so they're like, okay.
嗯，这金字塔简直太疯狂了。
Well, the pyramid is crazy.
它已经够疯狂的了。
It's crazy enough.
但如果下面还有东西，是人工建造的，或者是有人造过它。对。
But if there's something underneath it that's a a man made or someone made it Mhmm.
深入地下整整一公里，这到底是在说什么鬼东西？
That's a kilometer deep into the ground, like, what the fuck are we even talking about?
这到底是谁造的？
Like, who made this?
他们当时到底有什么技术？
What what did they have?
有一千二百米深
1.2 kilometers in
深入山体一千二百米。
for 1.2 kilometers into the mountain.
这太离谱了。
That's nuts.
深入山体将近半英里，还不算山体本身。
It's a half a fucking mile in it plus into the mountain.
这设备竟能穿透这么厚的岩层，精准还原出粒子对撞机的结构，而且不是一次扫描，是用多种技术反复扫描出来的。
And this thing can see through all that and get this accurate depiction of this particle collider, and it's showing with multiple scans, not just one, multiple scans in different technology.
同样的图像，同样的结构，藏在这座由二百三十万块巨石建成、几乎完美对准正北正南正东正西的庞然大物之下。
The same exact images, the same exact structures underneath this fucking immense 2,300,000 stone structure that almost perfectly aligns to true north, south, east, and west.
这到底是什么情况？
Like, what what was going on?
别跟我说是警察干的。
Don't tell me police.
别跟我说是铜制工具能做到的。
Don't tell me copper tools.
到底当时发生了什么？
Like, what the fuck was going on?
肯定有什么古怪。
Something crazy.
我觉得我们对这件事的简单解释，根本配不上它的真相。
And I have a feeling our simplistic explanation of it is just doing no one any justice.
这根本对不起历史。
It's doing no service to history.
这根本对不起我们对真相的理解。
It's doing no service to our understanding.
他们至少该承认，自己其实也一头雾水。
They've gotta be a little bit more open in the fact that they are perplexed.
对。
Mhmm.
不只是对这种事感到困惑。
And not just perplexed by stuff like this.
这是埃及一件真实花瓶的三维打印复制品，考古学家在古王国时期的墓葬里发现了它。
This is a three d print of an actual vase that exists in Egypt that they found that is found it in tombs of the old kingdom.
这东西是用青金石做的，那种石头硬得惊人。
This thing was somehow or another, it's made with diorite, so it's incredibly hard stone.
是的。
Mhmm.
它的精度达到了人类头发直径的千分之一左右。
And made to, like, a thousandth of a human hair in in its yeah.
我是说，它的尺寸精度。
Like, dimensions.
它的工艺这么精准，却不是用车床加工的，因为它还有把手。
Like, the way the the precision of it and wasn't turned on a lathe because it has handles.
对。
Yeah.
所以你看看
So you look at
两侧的把手。
the handles on the side.
你根本没法用雕刻的方式做出这些，可它们却完美无缺。
Well, you can't carve the and those are perfect too.
它的对称性，所有细节，都一丝不差。
Like, the alignment of it, everything.
你只要盯着它看。
And it's like you just look at it.
哦，这不就是个花瓶嘛。
Oh, it's a vase.
没什么大不了的。
No big deal.
但说实话，这简直太疯狂了。
But, no, it's kind of fucking crazy.
他们到底是怎么切出这种形状的？
Like, how did they cut that out?
在埃及发现的一些石头上，还有这些核心痕迹，他们分析过要达到这样的切痕，需要多高的转速，这根本没法解释。
There's also these there's all these core marks in some of the stones that they find in Egypt, and they've analyzed the amount of revolutions per minute that you would have to go through to be able to cut through something and leave these lines and then not defies explanation.
这到底是什么东西？
Like, what is this?
这太厉害了。
This is great.
这绝对不是靠沙子和铜器磨出来的。
This is not sand and copper and just rubbing things.
不是。
No.
这是一套我们完全无法理解的惊人技术。
This is some insane technology that we don't understand.
有些石头底部还有勺状的凹痕。
There's scoop marks out of the bottoms of some of these stones.
我当时就想，这到底是个什么东西？
I was like, what about what the fuck is this?
你怎么把石头挖出这种凹痕的？
How'd you scoop rock?
看起来就像冰淇淋一样。
Like, what it looks like ice cream.
他们就这么一刮就出来了。
Like, they just went roop.
他们到底是在干什么？
Like, what are they doing?
这问题太多了。
There it there's so many questions.
他们当时到底用什么工具干这些事的？
What tools did did they even have to do all these things?
他们用的是铜器。
They had copper.
其实有些证据表明他们可能已经掌握了铁器，而且图坦卡蒙的匕首还是陨铁做的，这挺有意思的。
I mean, there's there's some evidence that they had some iron, and then I think Tutankhamen had a dagger that was actually made from meteorite, which is interesting.
你知道，那时候要是能找到陨石并用它做东西，那可太珍贵了，这很明显。
You know, like, when they could find meteorites and make things out of them was very valuable, obviously.
但光是他们在那儿干的活儿，那工程量——
But the just the sheer volume of work that they did there, It's if,
你看看
like, you look at
神庙，还有那三座大金字塔，各种神庙和建筑，年代越久远，埋在沙子里越深，结构反而越复杂，这简直更让人费解了。
the temple in man, you look at all the the three major pyramids, you look at all the different pet temples and all the construction, and the older you go, the deeper into the sand they go, the more complex these things are, which is even weirder.
是的。
Yeah.
所以看起来，一个文明接一个文明，他们的技术可能也经历过兴起和衰落。
So it seems like civilization after civilization just there would there was probably a rise and fall with their technology as well.
完全没错。
Absolutely.
我觉得最不可思议的是，这些知识居然从来没被好好记录下来过。
I think it's it's it's just incredible that none of this knowledge was properly documented ever.
要弄清楚怎么重建这些东西，光是搞懂这门学问就得花上一大截功夫，更别说他们当年到底是怎么建起来的了。
And it's a whole, like, line of work to just go understand, like, how to even rebuild these things, leave alone how did they build it?
想想我们现在在做什么吧。
Well, think about what we're doing.
对吧？
Right?
我们所有的知识，本质上都存在硬盘和纸张上。
So all of our knowledge is essentially stored on hard drives and paper.
明白。
Mhmm.
这两种东西可是最容易损坏的。
Those are the the two things that are gonna deteriorate the quickest.
我觉得我们真该把整个互联网的内容都备份一份，
I mean, maybe we should, like, take a dump of the Internet and
然后刻在石头上。
Put it on a rock.
得找个地方把它保存下来，这样才行。
Go preserve it somewhere so that Yeah.
就算我们的文明彻底消失，所有数据中心都不复存在了，也没关系。
Even if our our civilization is wiped out and all the data centers are, like, gone or whatever Right.
将来 whoever 接替我们的人，总能慢慢搞明白。
Whoever comes next can go figure it out.
而且你得假设，就算他们找到了硬盘，要花多久才能逆向工程出我们做的东西，弄懂这些 0 和 1 到底代表什么？
Well, I mean, and then you've gotta always assume that even if they found a hard drive, that they would, like, how long would it take for them to back engineer what we did and figure out what these ones and zeros actually
是什么意思？
mean?
对。
Yeah.
这其实是现代文明最奇特、最了不起的成就之一。
That would is which is one of the most bizarre and fantastic accomplishments of modern civilization.
一太字节，真的。
Is that, like, is a terabyte Yeah.
这简直太不可思议了。
Which is nuts.
对。
Yeah.
我不记得你第一台电脑有多少内存了。
Like, I don't know what your first computer had.
我记不清了。
I don't remember.
肯定连一吉字节都不到，估计吧。
Definitely not not even a gigabyte, probably.
没错。
No.
是啊。
Yeah.
那时候硬盘也就几百兆而已。
Like, a few 100 megabytes was your hard drive.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我记得当年刚推出吉字节的时候，我简直觉得不可思议。
I mean, I remember when they first came out with gigabytes, I was like, this is nuts.
是的。
Yeah.
你懂吧？
Know?
比如Gmail刚推出的时候，给每个人免费提供海量邮箱存储空间，那个进度条一直在往上涨，存储容量根本看不到头。
Like, when Gmail launched and gave everybody, like, free email storage, unlimited email storage, and the bottom sliding bar would just keep increasing in terms of the total allowed size.
是的。
Yeah.
那会儿真让我觉得太离谱了。
And that was nuts to me.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
我觉得也是
And and I think yeah.
我们现在都习以为常了，觉得内存和硬盘好像永远用不完，没人会像以前那样担心手机拍太多照片存不下
We we take it for granted that we have, like, infinite RAM and infinite hard disk, and nobody has to worry about, like you know, you back in those days, you worry about, like, taking too many photos on your phone.
没错
Right.
确实
Right.
那时候还得手动删掉旧的或者拍得不好的照片
And then you have to go delete all the old ones or bad ones.
是的
Yeah.
你的存储空间就会用完
You'd run out of storage
在手机上。
on your phone.
是的。
Yeah.
然后你还得买个外接硬盘来存东西。
And then you would have to buy, like, an external hard drive to keep storing things.
对。
Yeah.
你
You
得不断把文件从手机传到硬盘上。
keep transferring stuff from your phone to the hard disk.
我记得以前的安卓手机，都要插一张SD卡。
I remember the old Android phones, you get a SD card.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以把这种卡插进去，把照片存在上面，这样就能省下空间。
You could slip one of those in there, and you could store images on that so you could save space.
对。
Yeah.
而且这些东西特别容易出问题。
And all that stuff is so vulnerable.
确实特别容易出问题。
It's so vulnerable.
假如一个完全陌生的文明突然降临，找到我们的硬盘，而他们的科技发展路径跟我们完全不同，那他们就得从头开始逆向工程，搞清楚我们到底用的是什么、什么操作系统、操作系统又是怎么运行的。
And, again, if a completely alien society had to come down and find our hard drives and they went a totally different path of technology, They'd have to back engineer, reverse engineer everything that we did, try to figure out, you know, what what what are we using, what operating system, how's the operating system work?
是Unix吗？
Is it Unix?
是Linux吗？
Is it Linux?
那到底是什么呢？
Is it like what is it?
他们该怎么弄明白呢？
How do they do it?
这简直是个噩梦。
It would be a nightmare.
他们得有个高级人工智能才能把这一切都搞清楚。
They would need an advanced AI to, like, figure it all out for them.
没错。
Right.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
这还只是假设硬盘能保存下来的情况。
And so that's just if the hard drives survive.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果发生一场特大洪水、大灾难，或者什么可怕的事件，把我们所有的电子设备都毁了——这完全有可能。
So if there's some massive flood, cataclysm, whatever, some some horrific thing that damages all of our electronics, which is totally possible.
是的。
Mhmm.
比如说一场太阳耀斑，非常强烈的那种，你知道的。
You know, just some solar flare, some intense, you know
再来一次实验室泄漏而已。
Just just just another lab leak.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就是时间问题。
Just time.
对。
Yeah.
时间上的实验室泄露。
A lab leak in time.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这太疯狂了。
It's nuts.
而且我们可能很快就会倒退回零点，变成末日生存者，四处打猎觅食。
And it we could go back to zero real quick, and we would basically be like preppers and hunt
然后重新逆向研究所有东西。
down to reverse engineer everything again.
这几乎是不可能的。
It would be almost impossible.
对。
Yeah.
所以我对大洪水之后的那个时代特别着迷。
Which is why I'm really fascinated by the flood the post flood timeline.
因为像格雷厄姆·汉考克这些人，还有其他一些人推测，几千年前可能曾存在过一个非常先进的文明，但走上了完全不同的发展路径。如果你看看苏美尔、美索不达米亚这些地区的文明起源，很多人认为那是人类最早有记载的文明。
Because if these people like Graham Hancock and a lot of these other folks that have speculated that there was probably a very advanced civilization that went in a completely different direction many thousands of years ago, if you look at, like, the emergence of, like, Sumer and, you know, Mesopotamia and that area, which a lot of people attribute to be the earliest known civilization
是的。
Mhmm.
那大概是在五六千年前。
That's around five thousand plus, six thousand years ago.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
大概吧。
Roughly.
所以大洪水发生在一万一千多年前。
So the flood's, like, eleven thousand years ago plus.
那这之后的五千年里，到底发生了什么？
So you're looking at, like, five thousand years of what?
在漫长的历史长河里，这根本算不了什么。
It's not even that long in the grand scheme of things.
没错。
No.
对地球来说不算什么，但对人类来说就不一样了。
Not to the Earth, but for people.
是的。
Yeah.
相当长了。
Pretty fucking long.
没错。
Exactly.
想想我们花了多长时间才把事情理顺。
Like, think of how long it took us to get our shit together.
是的。
Yeah.
花了成千上万年，人类可能一直很残忍，干尽了最糟糕的事。
It took thousands and thousands and thousands of years of people probably being monsters, just being the the worst of the worst.
对。
Yeah.
也许只有这样，他们才能活下来。
And that that's probably the only way they survived.
很可能发生过很多食人行为。
There's probably a lot of cannibalism.
是的。
Yeah.
谋杀事件层出不穷。
There's a lot of murder.
长达五千年里，各种可怕的糟心事不断，直到人们慢慢重新掌握了农业。
There's a lot of, like, horrific shit going on for five thousand years until people slowly but surely figured out agriculture again.
对啊。
Yeah.
开始修筑城墙。
Started building walls.
大家这才稍微松了口气。
Everybody relaxed a little.
有了可靠的武器防身，才能安心搞数学研究。
Got some solid weapons to keep people away so you could work on math.
一转眼，文明又重新兴起，然后又立刻回到了原来的循环里。
And then next thing you know, civilization emerges again, and it goes right, you know, goes right back onto the cycle.
接着你就会在《梨俱吠陀》里读到几千年前发生的事。
And then you start reading in the the Rig Veda about stuff that happened thousands of years.
你忍不住想问，这到底是什么情况？
You go, what the fuck is this?
到底发生了什么？
Like, what happened?
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是我的看法。
And that's my belief.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得在人类有记载的历史之前很久很久以前，地球上曾经发生过一些非常古怪的事情，可能还发展出了一套跟我们现在完全不同的技术。
I think there was something going on on Earth many, many, many thousands of years before established beginnings of history that was very bizarre and probably technology that went in a completely different direction
对。
Mhmm.
不是我们现在用的内燃机、电路这些东西，而是另一条完全不同的路。
Than what we're doing now with combustion engines and circuits and all the different things that we use.
是的
Yeah.
他们可能掌握了另一种技术。
They probably figured out some other kind of technology.
没错。
Exactly.
是的
Yeah.
这完全有可能。
Which is totally possible.
这真的很惊人。
And it's it's amazing.
想想看，如果我们能重新发现这一切，那该多棒啊。
Like, it's amazing to think of, like, what if we could rediscover all of that again?
而且，我真的很希望能够
And Well, I would love to be able to
是的
yeah.
如果我能选一个历史时刻回去看看，我一定会选古埃及人建造金字塔的时候，那场面一定特别震撼。
I would love to just have a if I could choose one window in time to go back to see what it would look like, I would 100% pick ancient Egypt while they're building.
对
Mhmm.
金字塔。
The pyramids.
是的
Yeah.
我正想说呢
I'm on
让我亲眼看看那场景，真的太棒了。
show me what the fuck Yeah.
当时到底在发生什么。
Was going on.
是的。
Yeah.
就让我待在一个巨大的轮子里转个不停吧。
There's just just put me in a big hamster wheel.
有个巨大的塑料泡泡，没人能看见我。
There's a big plastic bubble where no one could see me.
让我穿越时空，就在那儿待上几分钟就好。
Just let me violate space and time and exist there for just a few minutes.
就让我看一眼。
Just let me look.
我觉得这会是人类历史上最令人震撼的景象。
I think that would be the most insane thing that you could see about humans in human history.
是的。
Yeah.
我就想知道他们当时知道些什么，拥有什么，用的是什么。
I just I wanna know what they knew, what they had, what they used.
这东西据说是和佩特拉同一时期的。
It's like in this thing Petra's same time period, at least attributed to.
大约是公元前7000年左右。
7,000 roughly BC.
天哪。
Jesus.
那时候的人是怎么做到的？
And they you know, how would you do How?
那些石刻的细节简直让人难以置信。
The details of all those car carvings is just insane.
难以置信？
Insane?
对啊。
Yeah.
公元前7000年，他们用的是什么工具？
And what in 7,000 BC, what are the tools?
你们当时到底用的啥工具？
What the hell were you using?
你们是怎么把神庙从一座大山的山体里凿出来的？
How'd you make a temple out of the side of a fucking mountain?
你看看这规模，老兄。
Look at the size of it, man.
那些柱子的尺寸，简直了。
The size of those columns.
就算今天，想干这么件事都难如登天。
It would be hard to do anything like this even today.
这活儿难度极高，耗时得吓人。
It would be incredibly difficult, insanely time consuming.
没错。
Oh, yeah.
对了，卡莱萨神庙，我这会儿没调出来，但大约在1650年，有人派了一千人去炸毁它。
The Kaleasa Temple, by the way, I've I don't have it up right now, but the in 1650 or so, someone sent a thousand people to try to destroy it.
结果三年啥也没干，他们就放弃了。
And after three years of doing nothing, they stopped.
就只是在几座雕像上敲出了一点痕迹。
They barely made a dent on a couple statues.
是啊。
Yeah.
在印度，每当有入侵发生时，常常会这样。
A lot of times when invasions happen in India, like
他们拼命想毁掉它，但根本办不到。
They tried really hard to fuck it up and couldn't.
哇，真的吗。
Oh, wow.
太不可思议了。
That's crazy.
真是坚固得惊人。
That's very robust.
这真是个绝妙的描述方式。
Oh, that's a great way to describe it.
因为这些东西实在太多了，而且特别引人入胜，根本无法否认。
It's just there's so much of that stuff that's so interesting because it's so undeniable.
它的规模让人无法否认，复杂程度也让人无法否认，还有那种精密的规划，以及你必须具备的深厚几何知识。
It's so undeniable in its scale, so undeniable in its complexity, and the the planning, and the the the understanding that you you had to have a a deep knowledge of geometry Yeah.
对测量的精准要求，也必须非常准确。
Of measurement, of you had to have accurate.
没错。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
方方面面都是如此。
Everything.
坚固耐用，能抵御各种灾难，比如地震
Sturdiness, like, resist like calamities, earthquakes
你当时就有这些。
you had that.
洪水。
Floods.
你们用的是什么工具？
What tools are you using?
对。
Yeah.
你们到底是怎么做到的？
Like, how are you doing this?
是的。
Yeah.
你们是怎么协调这么多人的？
How are you coordinating all these people?
没错。
Right.
让他们去干活。
Getting them to do stuff.
我的意思是，没错。
And I mean, sure.
当时的条件一定非常艰苦。
Conditions must have been very harsher.
说实话，那时候的人恐怕别无选择，只能把自己卖给国家或王国当苦力，才能换来吃的、穿的和住的地方。
Like, I'm sure people didn't really have a choice but to do these things because back in those days, like, the only way you could take care of your food and clothing and shelter is, like, you commit yourself as a labor labor to the state, to the kingdom.
但你也可以问，是什么让他们有动力去干这些事呢？
But you could also ask, like, what gave them the initiative or drive to go do these things?
是的。
Yeah.
不过，这种描述可能更适合后来的时代。
Well, that description is perhaps of a later time.
我们其实根本不清楚，这些工程建造时的文明是什么样子。
We don't even really know what civilization was like when these were constructed.
是的。
Yeah.
真正的问题在于材料科学。
The the real the real problem is the material science.
真正的问题是，你要做出这些东西，需要很多条件。
The real problem is, like, you there's a lot of things that you have to have to make those things.
这可不像米开朗基罗雕雕塑那样简单，他用的是相对容易雕刻的石头。
It's not as simple as a sculpture like Michelangelo making a sculpture out of something that's, like, fairly easy to carve into stars as far as stone goes.
这么庞大的规模摆在眼前，我们对它的理解肯定还缺了什么。
Now this is the scale is imp it's so undeniable that, like, something something some piece of our understanding is missing.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
想想这些，每个人都该更谦逊一点。
I mean, it it it it oh, like, looking at all this, like, every everyone should just be, like, a lot more humble.
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