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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去听听看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
用它来安排我一整天。
Train my day.
晚上听乔·罗根播客，白天也听。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
上回我们聊到的时候，
So last time we talked,
上次见你，咱们在白宫看了一场笼中搏斗。
last time I saw you, we were at a cage fight at the White House.
没错。
That's right.
那真是我这辈子最疯狂的经历之一，对你来说肯定也一样吧。
That's that's One of the craziest experiences of my life, it must have been one of the craziest experiences of your life.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
那事儿发生后，我花了整整两周才缓过劲来，简直不敢相信真有这回事。
It took me, like, two weeks afterwards to recover just to, like, go to that actually happen?
这事儿听起来太离谱了。
That seems it seems so insane.
好吧。
Okay.
最离谱的部分，至少在我看来，是你还没到那儿之前——你每天照常去白宫上班。
The most insane part of it, which I guess was was before you got there to to me at least is, you know, like, you come into work every day in the White House.
对吧？
Right?
我在西翼有个办公室。
You you know, I have an office in the West Wing.
西翼有个椭圆形办公室。
There's the Oval Office in the West Wing.
你往窗外一看，那个八层高的建筑正在拔地而起，简直让人难以置信。
And you look out the window, and as this, like, eight story complex was growing up, it was the it was just the most unbelievable thing.
这地方本来是白宫的南草坪，可周围却在建一个世界奇观。
It's like the South Lawn Of The White House, but you've got the eighth wonder of the world being built up around it.
每天我看着它，都要愣上几秒钟。
And every day, I'd look at it and be like it would take me a couple seconds.
我心想：这到底在搞什么名堂？
I'd be like, what the hell is going on?
然后我才想起来：哦，对了。
And I'm like, oh, yeah.
是综合格斗比赛。
It's UFC.
再过几周就要来了。
It's u f UFC coming in a couple weeks.
整件事都特别不真实。
The whole thing was surreal.
对。
Yeah.
首先，天气居然绕开了我们，这简直太离谱了。
First of all, it was crazy that the weather just went around us.
当时真有那么一刻，比赛得推迟到晚上十点半才开始。
Like, there was a real moment where the fights would have been postponed till 10:30PM to start.
没错。
Correct.
结果最后一刻，那场风暴突然转向了。
And last minute, that storm just diverted.
没错。
That's right.
还有啊，我这本正在看的书，等会儿咱们聊聊，书的巡回宣传第二天就启动了。
Well, and, you know, this this this book that I have that I'm I guess we'll talk about a little bit, but the book tour started the next day.
第二天我要飞去纽约，去谈这本书。
So I was flying to New York the next day to talk about it.
我脑子里一直想的，就是每次收到白宫那边的天气更新，说活动可能要推迟到晚上十点半才开始。
And all I could think about is every time we got the update from White House weather, oh, it might not start until 10:30.
我心里直嘀咕：天哪。
I was thinking to myself, holy shit.
这意味着我得熬到凌晨四点才睡。
That means I'm gonna go to bed at like 4AM.
我到时候去谈书，肯定一副魂不守舍的样子。
I'm gonna look like a total crazy person when I try to go talk about go talk about this book.
但没想到，事情居然意外地顺利解决了。
But, it it it amazingly did work out.
说实话，推迟反而有点好处，毕竟那天热得要命。
Honestly, it actually helped a little bit because as you know, it was hot as hell out there.
是的。
Yeah.
而且
And
那会儿特别潮湿，你懂的，六月中旬在华盛顿特区。
it was super humid, you know, mid June in in in DC.
我觉得天气反而帮了点忙，大概十点左右，我就没觉得外面热得要命了。
And I think the weather actually helped cool it down a little bit because by about 10:00 or so, I was not thinking it's hot as hell out here anymore.
是的。
Yeah.
也没太糟，但我跟贾斯汀·盖特吉聊过这事，他说他打比赛的时候这问题挺烦的。
It wasn't too bad, but I talked to Justin Gaethje about it, and he said it was a problem when he was fighting.
他说空气特别沉闷。
He said the air was very thick.
明白了。
Okay.
刚打完第一回合，他就说：天哪。
Like, you're like, right after the first round, he was like, boy.
这可真够呛的。
Like, this is rough.
因为那又热又潮的空气，确实挺难受的。
Because that hot humid air and Yeah.
你懂的。
You know?
是啊。
It's Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
走路的时候还好。
It's it's it's fine walking around.
走路的话，其实还行。
It's it's I mean, it's okay walking around.
还是觉得像沼泽一样。
It still feels it is a swamp.
对吧？
Right?
所以大家才叫它沼泽。
That's why people call it the swamp.
当然，这明显是6月14号的事。
So, you know, that's obviously June 14.
这就是那种氛围。
That's the presence.
不是他们叫它沼泽的原因。
Not why they call it
沼泽。
the swamp.
其中一个原因就是他们叫它
That's one of the reasons why they call
叫它沼泽。
it the swamp.
他们叫它
They call
叫它沼泽，也是因为我的同事们。
it the swamp because of my colleagues colleagues too.
因为那里全是泥巴、水、污物、垃圾，还有沼泽怪。
Because it's filled with mud and water and gunk and shit and swamp monsters.
天哪。
Oh, man.
所以那是6月14号，也是总统的生日。
So that's June 14, so that's the president's birthday.
那天还是我结婚十二周年的纪念日。
That's also was that was my twelfth wedding anniversary.
哇，真的啊。
Oh, wow.
我老婆是这样，一旦有人冲进来，肯定是因为我老婆要生了，她都三十九周了。
And my wife so that's that's the one thing, like, somebody runs in here, it's because my wife's going into labor because she's, thirty nine weeks pregnant.
但我记得，就在UFC比赛前，我们还出去吃晚饭。
But I remember we go out to dinner, like, right before the UFC fight.
当然，我们一直在看天气预报，想搞清楚外面啥情况。
And we're, of course, checking the weather report to figure out what's going on.
我老婆平时挺喜欢跟着我参与副总统的这些活动的。
And, you know, my wife normally likes to come to the cool stuff of being vice president.
但那次她直接说：太热了。
That was the one where she was like, it's hot.
我怀得这么辛苦，才不要在外面晒六个小时。
I'm super pregnant, and I'm not gonna sit sit out there for six hours.
所以
So
对。
Yeah.
我真没法想象。
I couldn't imagine.
而且当时现场一片混乱，真正的混乱随时可能爆发。
Also, it was just there was so much chaos, and and the potential for real chaos was always there.
首先，那个椭圆形广场上。
First of all, have the ellipse.
椭圆形广场外面有八万五千人左右？
So the ellipse has, what, 85,000 people outside?
没错。
That's right.
对在家看直播的人来说，我们能清楚听到外面的声音。
For people that are watching at home, like, we could hear them.
是的。
Yes.
比如比赛开始，或者一有动静的时候
Like, when the fights when when something would happen
有点儿后知后觉吧。
In, like, kind of a delayed way.
对吧。
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你能听到靠近场地那几千人欢呼的声音，八万五千人在场外，就在后头。
You hear the cheers from the people that were near, so it was like 3,000 plus people tightly close to the octagon, and then you had 85,000 people in the Yeah.
在背景里。
In the background.
那感觉特别诡异。
It very eerie.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的很喜欢这一点。
I actually love that.
我喜欢那种延迟的反应，比如有人打出一记重拳，或者完成一次摔倒，紧接着就像波浪一样涌起。
Like, I love the delay reaction to where, you know, somebody get a good punch in or, you know, you get a takedown, and then it was almost like the wave.
对吧？
Right?
因为最里面是核心的欢呼，外面的人则随后才跟着喊起来。
Because there was the initial center of it and then the people outside of it.
那场面太震撼了。
It was pretty sick.
那场面太震撼了。
It was pretty sick.
特别酷。
It was very cool.
我觉得达娜说过，这是一生难遇的体验。
I think Dana said not once in a a lifetime or not once in a generation or once in a lifetime experience.
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，这种事一辈子就一回。
I mean, it's once ever.
是的
Yeah.
我看不出还有哪位总统会这么做。
I don't see any other president.
我的意思是，你要是当了总统，也不会干这种事。
I mean, if you become president, you're not gonna do that.
对吧？
Right?
说实话，我也不确定。
I don't know, man.
反正我第一件事不会这么干。
It's I wouldn't I didn't wanna do that first.
这事儿太酷了。
It's a very cool thing.
真的很酷。
Very cool.
是啊。
Yeah.
赶紧搞定吧。
Get it over with.
一次就行。
Do it once.
这是这项运动历史上唯一一次，一场比赛里出现了七次暂停，七次击倒。
It was the only time in the history of the sport where there's been seven stoppages, seven seven knockouts.
就是说，一场比赛就
Like, single fight was
击倒了。
a knockout.
要明白这一点。
Realize that.
对。
Yeah.
每一场都是。
Every single fight.
好的。
Okay.
但关键是，我们这一场赛事里有七次击倒。
But the thing is, like, we've had seven knockouts and a card.
我觉得上个周末，我们有十次终止比赛。
I think this last weekend, we had 10 Mhmm.
十次终止比赛，但那情况不一样。
10 stoppages, but that was different Yeah.
因为那场有十四场比赛。
Because it was, like, 14 fights.
没错。
That's right.
这全是拳击比赛。
This is all fights.
每一场都是击倒获胜。
Every single fight was a knockout.
那最后一场，你是什么时候意识到比赛结束了的？
So the last fight, when did you realize that was over?
和康纳那场？
With Connor?
是的。
Yeah.
他第二次倒地的时候，我就觉得不好了。
When he fell down a second time, I was like, oh, this is not good.
我头一回以为他只是滑倒了。
I've for the first time I thought he just slipped.
很难说清楚。
It's hard to tell.
太不可思议了。
It's wild.
当时就在现场，根本没反应过来。
It's in the moment.
我以为他是滑倒了。
I thought he slipped.
等他站起来又踢了一脚，我立马觉得不对劲，他的腿怎么突然使不上力了。
And then when he got up and he threw a kick again, I'm like, oh, I don't like how his leg just gave out.
那样子不像是滑倒，但我还是希望他只是没站稳。
That didn't seem like and I'm still hoping he's just slipping.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我本以为他只是因为五年没上过综合格斗笼子，紧张过头了，结果他一动起来，就伸手抓住膝盖，直接跪下了。
I'm hoping he's just freaking out because he hasn't been in the octagon in five years, And then he started moving around, and he he, like, grabbed his knee and buckled.
明白了。
Okay.
后来有人注意到他那边有点不对劲。
And there was some conversation noticed that.
是的。
Yeah.
他和麦克斯·霍洛威之间好像在交流，我就听出麦克斯在说他没法打比赛了。
There was some conversation going on between him and Max Holloway, and I was like, you know, Max is saying he can't fight.
明显哪里不对劲。
Like, something's wrong.
可他还说，来打啊。
And he say, fight me.
他还在喊，起来啊。
He's like, get up.
所以他扶他起来，结果膝盖一软，裁判立刻终止了比赛。
And so he lets him up, and then his his knee buckles, then the referee stops
比赛结束了。
the fight.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我记得那场好像是最后一场，裁判在第三回合结束时就想叫停，因为觉得他可能有脑震荡。
There it it's always so so the the very I think it was the very last fight where the the ref tried to call it at the end of the third round, and then because he was he was saying that there was a concussion issue.
说实话，我当时也没看明白发生了什么。
I mean, I couldn't tell what
是伊利亚·捷波列亚那场吗？
was going Ilya Teporea fight?
贾斯汀·盖特吉那场，是在
The Justin Gaethje fight at
白宫？
the White House?
特波雷亚对贾斯汀·盖奇的那场
The the Teporea Justin Gaethje
比赛。
fight.
明白了。
See.
好的。
Okay.
他说自己看不清楚，因为右眼出了问题。
He was saying he couldn't see well because something was wrong with his right eye.
我的意思是，他整张脸都肿得厉害，根本什么都看不见。
Well, I mean, it looks like his whole face was puffed up so he couldn't see anything.
不过，好吧。
But okay.
所以我以为是脑震荡的问题，但
So I thought it was a concussion thing, but
不是的。
it was No.
是因为他的视力出了问题。
Because of his vision.
不是。
No.
他们从来不会这样。
They never do that.
我的意思是，只有当一个人被狠狠击打过，才可能是脑震荡。
They I mean, the the concussion thing would only be if someone had been battered.
很多拳手其实是在带着脑震荡比赛的。
There's a lot of times where fighters are fighting with concussions.
对。
Yeah.
这种情况经常发生
It happens all the
到处都是。
time.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
第一回合就被击倒了。
You get dropped in the first round.
你很可能已经脑震荡了。
You probably have a concussion.
没错。
Yeah.
你又站起来了。
You get back up.
你还在继续拼。
You keep fighting.
你完全是靠本能在打。
You're fighting on instincts.
有很多次，拳手打到第四回合才醒过来。
There's been many times where fighters wake up in, like, the fourth round.
没错。
Sure.
他们打了三个回合，却一点记忆都没有。
And they've fought three rounds, and they don't remember it at all.
天哪。
My god.
这实在太疯狂了。
That's pretty crazy.
这不是个靠谱的谋生方式。
Not the best way to make a living.
这真不是个赚钱的好行当啊。
Not the best way to make a living, man.
对。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
几周前我们看到盖特吉去了白宫。
So we saw Gaethje at the White House a couple of weeks ago.
是的。
Yeah.
我看到了。
I saw that.
我问他了。
I asked him.
我就问他：你是不是不打了？
I was like, so are you done fighting?
他稍微犹豫了一下，后来我想是他妈妈当时也在椭圆形办公室里。
And he kinda hesitated a little bit, and then I think it was his mom was in the Oval Office with her.
她就说：‘是的。’
She's like, yes.
对。
Yeah.
不过你知道，要是有人在他那场精彩表现后给他一笔改变人生的报酬，我觉得他还是会答应的。
But, you know, if they offer him some life changing money for one more fight after that performance, I have a feeling he'll take
是啊。
it.
他下一场打比赛能拿到多少钱呢？
Like, what is what could he fetch for his next fight?
更多吗？
Like, more?
这确实是个好问题。
It's a good question.
说实话，我不清楚他的合同是怎么签的。
You know, I don't know what his contract is.
我也不懂这行的运作方式。
I don't know how it works.
我也不知道历史上有人拿过多少，反正我不太关注这些事。
I don't know what the most anyone's ever I try not to pay attention to that stuff Yeah.
因为我并不参与这项运动的商业运作。
Because I'm not on the business end of the sport.
我倒是有点理解你的看法。
I'm on your perception a little bit.
确实有可能。
It can.
但说到底，我还是希望他们能拿到尽可能多的报酬。
It it's also it's I mean, I want them to get paid the most amount possible.
没错。
Right.
这就是我的看法。
That's my perspective.
对。
Yeah.
我的工作就是分析比赛、观察场上动态，做解说，给八角笼里的精彩瞬间增添色彩和生命力。
But what I'm my job is just to analyze and to see what's going on and to commentate and try to give color and life to what's happening inside the octagon.
我尽量不去过多纠结钱的问题。
And I don't I try not to dwell too much on the money.
我只希望他们能拿到丰厚的报酬。
I just want them to get paid a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
我希望他们打完能体面退役，以后再也不用为生计奔波。
I want them to be able to retire and never have to do anything ever again.
当然。
Sure.
我不确定贾斯汀能不能做到这一点。
What's what's I don't know if Justin could do that.
对我来说，最让人惊讶的是这项运动已经取代了拳击。
What's crazy about it to me is just how much the sport has replaced boxing.
当然，拳击仍然很重要，拳手们依然能拿到很高的报酬。
And, like, there's still obviously, boxing is still a big deal, and fighters still get paid a lot of money.
我记得我上高中的时候，人们对重量级比赛总是特别兴奋。
But, like, I remember when I was, I don't know, in high school, I feel like people would get really excited about the big heavyweight Sure.
重量级冠军赛。
Heavyweight title bout.
现在成了UFC的天下。
Now it's the UFC thing.
确实。
Yeah.
从文化层面来看，UFC好像已经取代了拳击的地位，我是说，我不太清楚这到底是怎么发生的，也不明白原因。
So culturally, it's like UFC has taken over boxing, and I don't I mean, I don't know how or why that happened.
我不确定这是营销做得好，还是因为比赛真的更真实、更激烈。
Like, I don't know if it's just good marketing or if just the fights are so much more real and intense.
这二十年来，这种转变真是太惊人了。
Like, I but it's it it is a crazy shift that's happened in twenty years.
上周末我有几个朋友是拳手的经纪人。
Well, I've had some I had some friends this past weekend that manage fighters.
我朋友乔什·杜宾，还有其他几个朋友，他们确实管着拳击手。
My friend Josh Dubin and a few other friends that actually manage boxers Yeah.
现在他们都转投UFC了。
Come to the UFC.
他们全都惊呼，天哪。
And they were all like, oh my god.
这比拳击推广好太多了。
This is so much better than a boxing promotion.
对。
Yeah.
因为每一场对决都特别精彩。
Because you all the fights are exciting.
打拳击的时候，大多数人只等着看压轴大战。
With boxing, most people are just there for the main event.
对啊。
Mhmm.
很多人甚至要到压轴赛前十五分钟才进场。
And a lot of people don't even stroll in until, like, fifteen minutes before the main event.
确实如此。
Sure.
那些坐在前排的名人啊。
Like, all the famous people that sit in the front row.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
在UFC比赛中，从第五、第六甚至第七场开始，全场就坐满了。
In the UFC, that place is packed for, you know, five, six, seven fights in.
对啊。
Yeah.
你懂的吧。
You know?
一晚上有十四场比赛，场场都精彩。
And there's 14 fights in the night, and all of them are amazing.
比赛刚开始的时候，座位通常只坐了一半，看你在哪里看。
It's like in the beginning, it's usually, like, half full depending on where you are.
像在盐湖城这种地方，一开场就座无虚席，因为他们一年才办一次赛事。
If you're in a place like Salt Lake City, it's pretty packed, like, right away because they only get, like, one event every year or so.
没错。
Mhmm.
这运动就是更刺激。
But it's just a more exciting sport.
获胜的方式更多了。
There's more ways to win.
比赛更富变化了。
It's more dynamic.
发生的事情也更多。
More things happen.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且明星也更多。
And there's more stars.
UFC里有太多明星了。
There's so many stars in the UFC.
没错。
Yeah.
我以前从来没现场看过拳赛。
So I'd never seen a fight live before.
我虽然在电视上看过很多次，但从来没亲临现场。
Like, I've watched them on TV, but I've never been there live.
简直难以置信，比赛居然就在白宫南草坪上举行。
So kinda crazy that it's literally in the South Lawn Of The White House.
但我最震惊的是，我以为那些臂锁摔法一使出来，比赛就结束了。
But the thing that I found completely shocking about it was like, I would think those those, like, arm bar takedowns are just done.
就是这么回事，完了。
Like, that's it.
人就输了。
You're over.
但有几次，有人已经锁住了对方的手臂，比赛却还在继续。
But there were a couple of times where somebody had another person's arm.
对。
Yeah.
那是乔什·霍根和德里克·刘易斯。
That was Josh Hogan and Derrick Lewis.
祝福并
Bless And
简直太吓人了。
it's like, holy shit.
对。
Yeah.
他直接把人家的胳膊给折断了。
He just your arm broken off.
可那人还没认输。
He wasn't And yet he didn't.
他根本没使对招。
He wasn't doing it right.
明白了。
Okay.
哦。
Oh.
乔什·霍根是个出色的摔跤手。
Josh Hogan is a great wrestler.
是的。
Yeah.
他是个很棒的格斗选手，但并不擅长降服技。
And he's an excellent fighter, but he's not really a submission specialist.
我的意思是，他确实用了臂锁，但动作没做对。
I mean, he did get the arm bar, but he didn't do it right.
明白。
Okay.
他只是在硬拽，其实得抬起臀部，制造空间，让手臂向后弯曲才行。
He was basically like pulling on you have to elevate your hips and you have to create space so that the arm is bending back this way.
对。
Yeah.
他的手臂几乎是贴着胸口，这可不是正确的姿势。
His arm is essentially flat to his chest, which is not what you want.
你应该让背部拱起来，就像这样，你看到那个姿势了吗？
What you want is a back arch like this where you see, like, how it is right there?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以他现在该做的，不是把臀部压低、膝盖抬高，而是用腿做深屈，把臀部往上顶，把手臂往回拉得更远。
So what he wants to do here, what he should do, instead of having his hips down, his knees up, what you're supposed to do is heavy leg curls with the leg and elevate the hips up and pull it way back.
他几乎应该做一个桥式动作。
So he'd almost be bridging bend it.
他应该用肩膀顶住，做桥式，这样就能把对方的手臂掰断了。
He would be on the top of his shoulders and bridging, and then he would have broken his arm.
另一个办法是像这样把它拉到侧面
The other option is you pull it off to the side like this
是的
Yeah.
把它放在髋部外侧，这样就能折断它
And you put it to the side of your hip, and you can break it
那样做
that way.
明白了
Okay.
但这方法不对
But it's just bad technique.
对
Yeah.
明白了
Okay.
看这个视频啊，乔什，我不是有意冒犯你。
So watching it No offense, Josh.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我看了之后根本没意识到这一点。
Watching it, I didn't realize that.
我简直不敢相信，那人居然撑了整整三十秒，还拿着个
I just could not believe that dude held out for, like, thirty seconds with a
是那个更让人震惊，还是他说米歇尔·奥巴马是个男人的时候？
Was that more shocking or when he said Michelle Obama is a man?
哪个更让你吃惊？
Which one was more shocking?
肯定是那个臂锁部分。
Definitely the arm bar part.
天啊，我搞政治的。
Man, I I work in politics.
人们经常说些离谱的话。
People say crazy stuff all the time.
他每次吵架都这么说。
Well, he says that every fight.
是吗？
Does he?
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我上次采访他的时候，他就说过这话。
He said he said that the last time I interviewed him.
哎呀。
Oh, man.
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这纯粹是吊人胃口。
Well, it's a tease.
他就是这样的人。
He's like
就像职业摔角里的角色。
a pro wrestling character.
大家为此都疯了。
Like, People lost their minds about it.
我知道。
I know.
真的都疯了。
Lost their minds about it.
以至于，我第二天或者隔天还得去宣传这本书。
To the point where, again, I had the view either the next day or the day after to sort of promote this book.
那一定挺有意思的。
That must be fun.
那场面太疯狂了。
It was crazy.
这比我在政界做过的任何事都难。
It was harder than any anything I've done in politics.
甚至到了我的所有通讯团队成员最担心的地步，他们怕别人会问你，米歇尔·奥巴马被叫做男人这事。
But the the to the point where all of my comms people, the thing they were most worried about was they're gonna ask you about mil Michelle Obama being called a man.
就像，你们到底在问什么，你们到底在问什么
Like, what are what are you what are
你会怎么评价这件事？
you gonna say about it?
我当时就想，一个情绪激动的拳手在赛后讲了个笑话，说了几句话，居然成了全国新闻。
And I was like, what an amped up fighter told a joke after a fight, said something after a fight, and that's actually national news.
到现在我都觉得挺不可思议的。
I'm still surprised.
我从事政治工作到现在已经有三四年了。
I've been in politics now for three, four years.
我还是没想到，人们会为这种事这么激动。
I'm still shocked the shit that people get really fired up about.
我能理解，毕竟这事发生在白宫。
Well, I kinda understand it because it's at the White House.
首先，要在白宫打拳击，本身就够离谱了。
First of all, a cage fight at the White House is crazy already.
要是他在拉斯维加斯的T-Mobile体育馆说这话，大家可能就笑笑算了。
I mean, if he said Michelle Obama's a man at the T Mobile Arena in Vegas, it's like, okay.
那就不算什么大新闻了？
Less of a story?
他首先是个非常出色的拳手。
He what he is is he's a very good fighter, first of all.
但光有实力，有时候还不足以吸引关注。
And but sometimes it's not enough to get attention.
所以乔什塑造了这么一个形象，就像职业摔跤里的反派角色。
And so what Josh has done is created this persona, like this pro wrestling bad guy persona.
你跟他台下聊天的时候，他其实特别普通。
When you talk to him offstage, he's, like, very normal.
对。
Yeah.
人特别聪明。
Very smart guy.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他就是故意这么做的，你看吧。
It's just like he's decided, like, look.
他想让更多人注意到自己，所以搞了个夸张的出场，一出来就是霍克·霍根的主题曲。
I wanna maximize the amount of eyeballs that see me, and I'm gonna create this crazy he comes out to the Hulk Hogan song.
我是个地道的美国人。
I'm a real American.
没错。
That's right.
他戴着墨镜。
He has sunglasses on.
头上围着美国国旗的头巾。
American flag bandana.
你知道的，他就是那种……
It's you know, he's he's I
我的意思是，我确实喜欢这种表演风格，但说实话，我还是更喜欢……
mean, I I love the I present love the presentation, but, again, I like
在白宫说这种话可不太合适。
Not the best thing to say at the White House.
说米歇尔·奥巴马是男人，这话可真不该说。
Michelle Obama's a man is not the best thing to say.
说得对，但我觉得大家的反应也太过了。
Fair, but the reaction to it to me was still totally disproportionate.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
人们啊，大家平时说话啥都有，我觉得这没什么大不了的。
People dude, people say stuff all the time, and what I okay.
我从事的行业里，人们天天做着关乎生死的重大决定，但我总是对这种动不动就过度反应的文化感到意外——因为乔什本来就是想揭露这种过度反应本身。
I I I I work in a business where obviously people make life decision life and death decisions all the time, And I'm always a little bit caught off guard by the culture that just overreacts when clearly the thing what the Josh is trying to get is the overreaction in the first place.
没错。
Right.
你干脆就顺着他，最坏也不过是说一句‘这话说得冒犯了’，然后该干嘛干嘛。
So you give him exactly what he wants and like the worst you could say is, oh, that was an offensive comment and you get on with the rest of your life.
最坏也就是这句话了。
Like that's the worst that you could say.
那些为此彻底炸毛、失去理智的人，我真的搞不懂。
The people who really flip out about it and kinda lose their minds, I just I don't understand that.
首先，我觉得很大一部分原因在于，现在这个社会经济本质上是靠引发反应来运转的。
Well, first of all, I think a lot of it is there is an economy that is essentially based on getting reactions.
没错。
Correct.
有很多人，说白了，根本不是真心的。
And there's a lot of people that are just for a lack of a better term, they're they're not real.
他们的反应都是做给别人看的。
Their their their reactions are performative.
很多人发评论、刷存在感，就是为了博点击、捞点赞、冲流量，社交媒体在很多方面已经毁掉了真正的对话。
Like, a lot of what they're doing is just trying to trying to comment on things and get clicks and likes and views, and social media has ruined discourse in a lot of ways.
是的。
Yeah.
因为人们现在
Because people
确实如此。
It has.
人们根本不会认真地讨论问题。
People are not having, like, real conversations about things.
他们只是在Instagram和Twitter上随便点赞评论。
They're reacting to things on Instagram and Twitter.
没错。
Yes.
他们一看见这样的机会，就觉得像捡到金子一样。
And, you know, they're just they they look at an opportunity like that, like, oh, I found a gold nugget.
觉得这能带来收入，或者能吸引关注。
You know, like, this is gonna give me money or this is gonna give me attention.
赶紧抢着表态，生怕错过热点。
This is gonna get oh, I can't wait to have a take on that.
说得太对了。
That's exactly right.
不过，好吧。
So so but okay.
所以我对这些事的反应就是，哎，他就是开个玩笑。
So my response to that is so many things is like, oh, he was being funny.
他说话太夸张了，我就当没这回事，该干嘛干嘛。
He was being outrageous and I just move on with my life.
我觉得特别有意思的是，有些人总说，哦，那是个笑话。
What I find very interesting is the people who say, you know, oh, that was a joke.
你还记得Kill Tony在2024年大选期间，站在麦迪逊广场花园讲的那个段子吗？
Like when when Kill Tony, do remember he told like the joke around the world in Madison Square Garden during the twenty twenty four election?
我记得跟人为此吵过一架，可能还在采访里说过，不过记不太清了。
I remember getting into an argument with somebody about this and I I may have even been like in an interview, but I don't remember.
也可能是私下里聊的。
It could have been private too.
总之，我就觉得，他就是讲了个段子。
Anyway, I'm like, he told a joke.
可对方的回应却是：这笑话一点都不好笑。
And the person's response is, well, it's not a very funny joke.
我的回应是，你知道当有人给我讲一个不好笑的笑话时会发生什么吗？
And my response to that is, you know what happens when somebody tells me a joke that's not funny?
我不笑，然后继续过我的生活。
I don't laugh and then I move on with my life.
这种围绕愤怒的产业，不。
This whole industry around outrage No.
特别是因为幽默而感到愤怒，我认为这实际上正在伤害这个国家。
Especially getting outraged around humor, I think is actually really hurting the country.
那件事的话，我早就跟托尼说过，那个笑话会让他被人捅的。
Well, in that case, first of all, I told Tony a long time ago that joke was gonna get him stabbed.
我是认真的。
I really did.
他甚至在台上还拿这事儿开玩笑。
He even jokes around about it on stage.
哦。
Oh.
他老说是我告诉他，就是这个笑话，老兄。
And he talks about me telling him, that's the one, dude.
就是这个笑话会让你挨刀的。
That's the one's gonna get you stabbed.
任何一个好笑的段子
Any good joke
没错。
Yeah.
至少都会让你冒点风险
At least is gonna run you some risk of
被捅一刀。
getting stabbed.
一个涉及种族的笑话，而且还是关于波多黎各的。
A racial joke, and that joke being about Puerto Rico.
顺便说一句，没人比波多黎各人更会开玩笑。
By the way, no one takes a joke better than Puerto Ricans.
波多黎各人特别擅长讲笑话。
Puerto Ricans are some of the best people at telling jokes.
对他们来说，开玩笑、互相调侃、说些损话，那都是文化的一部分。
Like, there it it is a culture of joking and and fucking around with each other and talking shit.
他们在这方面真的很厉害。
Like, they're great at
没错。
it.
对。
Yeah.
所以，就像，
So, like,
海军陆战队的那些哥们儿都挺喜欢他的，老兄。
they love him guys in the Marine Corps, man.
这绝对是真的。
That's absolutely true.
他们到现在还喜欢他。
They love him still.
没错。
Yes.
你知道吗，就算开了那个玩笑之后，他们还是喜欢他。
You know, like even after that joke.
是的。
Yeah.
那到底怎么回事？你劝他别开那个玩笑？
What it was So you you you advised him not to tell that joke?
嗯，我当时半开玩笑地说的。
Well, was kinda half joking.
你知道吗，托尼一向这样。
You know, Tony that's what Tony does.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我只是说，那个笑话迟早会让你惹上麻烦。
By I just said that's the one that's gonna get you stabbed.
对。
Yeah.
但说到底，这本来就是托尼的风格。
But I mean, that's to what Tony does.
托尼就像是喜剧界的乔什·霍基特。
Tony is like the Josh Hokit of comedy.
他确实有点莽撞，但本事是真的大。
Like, he he but very talented.
你知道吗？他特别擅长怼人。
You know, he's a really good he's a roaster.
怼人是他的强项，但他也故意惹人不快。
He's like roasting his is his specialty, but it's also like he's trying to ruffle people's feathers.
这正是他想干的事。
That's what he wants to do.
是的
Yep.
他就是想惹人生气。
He wants to piss people off.
就像他喜欢扮演职业摔角里的反派角色。
Like, that's he likes being a pro wrestling heel.
对
Yeah.
他一直特别喜欢职业摔角。
He always he's a huge pro wrestling fan.
所以，托尼，我真的很喜欢他的喜剧。
Well, so well, he so Tony, I like, I'm a huge fan of his comedy.
我只见过他几次。
I've only, you know, met him a couple times.
我跟他并不算很熟。
I don't know him particularly well.
但他其实比大多数喜剧演员都更关注政治。
But he's actually, like, you know, more political, I would say, than most comedians.
你觉得这么说公允吗？
Do you think that's fair?
明白了。
Okay.
他非常支持特朗普。
So Well, very supportive of, like, Trump
他是站在共和党那边的？
Like, he's on the Republican team?
他是站在共和党那边的。
He's on the Republican team.
因为他在美国加州接触过太多极端自由派的人。
So It's because he's experienced so many loony left wing people in California.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以他才不得不搬走。
That's why he had to move.
有人给我发了个片段。
Well, somebody sent me a clip.
好像是Shane Gillis在一个吐槽大会上的段子，他们当时在吐槽Tony，说Tony Hinchcliffe是唯一一个看到JD Vance在场会兴奋的人。
I think it was Shane Gillis at a roast where the the joke was they were roasting Tony and they're like, Tony Hinchcliffe is the only dude who would be excited if JD Vance was here.
我当时就想，第一，这笑话挺逗的。
And I was like, one, that's a very good joke.
第二，我觉得我算是
And number two, I feel like I had
做到了。
made it.
就是有那么几个瞬间，我觉得自己算是成功了。
Like, there have been a few moments where I feel like I've made it.
当《南方公园》做了美国的那期节目时。
When South Park of The United States.
我觉得那时候你才算真正成功了。
I think you made it.
《南方公园》恶搞我的时候，那种感觉比当上美国副总统宣誓就职还要强烈。
When when South Park spoofed me, I felt it more than when I got it sworn in as vice president of The United States.
这太搞笑了。
That's hilarious.
实在太有趣了。
That's very funny.
本期节目由The Farmer's Dog赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog.
给你说个有趣的数据。
Here's a fun fact.
研究表明，保持健康体重的狗，平均寿命比超重的狗要长两年半。
Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight.
这难道不既惊人又挺明显的吗？
Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time?
那为什么大多数狗主人还在用模糊的量勺喂那些高度加工的狗粮呢？
So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners?
其实有更健康的选择，说实话，我很清楚。
Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know.
我选的是The Farmer's Dog。
I buy one, The Farmer's Dog.
我家两只狗都吃这个。
I use it for both my dogs.
它们特别喜欢。
They love it.
吃起来特别快。
They eat it up quick.
闻起来它们也很喜欢。
It smells good to them.
闻起来我也觉得香。
It smells good to me.
这是人能吃的品质。
It's human grade food.
The Farmer's Dog 做的是新鲜狗粮，我家两只狗都特别爱吃。
The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it.
他们的配方用的是真肉和新鲜蔬菜，用低温烹调保留了营养。
Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients.
还会根据每只狗的营养需求精准分量，避免吃多，也更容易控制体重。
They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier.
多陪陪咱们的四脚朋友，哪个养狗的不希望这样呢？
And isn't getting more time with our four legged best friends something every dog owner wants?
答案当然是肯定的。
The answer to that is yes, obviously.
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另外，还包邮。
Plus, get free shipping.
赶紧去 thefarmer'sdog.com/rogan 下单吧。
Just go to thefarmer'sdog.com/rogan.
这个优惠只限新用户。
This offer is for new customers only.
没错。
Yeah.
托尼就是这样，这本来就是他的风格。
Tony is I mean, that's his style.
他就是喜欢当反派角色。
Like like, he loves, like, being the heel.
他在奥斯汀。
He's in Austin.
远离那一切。
Out of it.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
他是最早和我一起搬来这里的人之一。
He's one of the first people that moved out here with me.
明白了。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我们在这儿已经六年了。
I mean, we've been here for six years now.
是的。
Yeah.
每次我们回加州，都觉得当初的选择没错。
And every time we go back to California, we're like, we were right.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我们确实选对了。
We're right.
那边正在垮掉。
It's falling apart.
情况越来越糟，一塌糊涂。
It keeps going further and further down the toilet.
你觉得奥斯汀现在怎么样？
How do you how do you feel like Austin is going?
几年前人们批评奥斯汀的时候，总说它是个挺酷的城市。
Because the criticism of Austin, call it five or six years ago, is that all the like, it's a cool town.
它有自己的独特文化。
It's got its own unique culture.
虽然是在得克萨斯，但它又自成一派。
It's Texas, but it's also its own thing.
但当时大家都觉得，那些从蓝州搬来的人会彻底改变奥斯汀的政治和文化氛围。
But that all of the blue staters moving in were gonna, like, totally change the politics and the culture of Austin.
但我真觉得这事儿没发生。
I actually don't think that's happened.
我觉得那些从蓝州搬来的人，是因为他们发现原来住的地方已经没法待了才来的。
I think the blue staters that moved here moved here because they recognized that wherever they were living was not tenable.
是的。
Yeah.
那里已经快撑不住了。
It was falling apart.
像纽约、加州，尤其是洛杉矶和旧金山，这些地方都快垮了。
And all these places like New York and really California, like, especially Los Angeles and San Francisco, they're falling apart.
我有不少朋友被困在那里，走不了。
And I have a bunch of friends that are stuck there that can't move.
可能他们有家人在那儿，或者有生意在那儿。
Like, maybe they have family there or maybe they have a business there.
没错。
Yep.
他们简直痛恨那里。
And they fucking hate it.
还有不少人想搬走，但房子根本卖不掉。
And then I have a bunch of people that are trying to move, they can't sell their house.
那边真是乱套了，老兄。
Like, it's nuts there, man.
我觉得人们首先被加文·纽森给误导了。
I don't think people first of all, you you get gaslit by Gavin Newsom.
我的意思是，他一直在骗大家，说加州的GDP有多厉害，简直像世界第五大经济体一样。
I mean, he's just gaslighting everybody about how well, you know, all the GDP of was, like, the fifth largest country in the world.
加州就是这么个情况。
That's what California is.
我说老兄，
It's like, dude,
嘿，兄弟。
hey, bro.
你当州长之前，这情况早就这样了。
It was that before you were the governor.
没错。
Exactly.
另外，要是你打算离开加州，租个U-Haul要花多少钱？
Also, how much does a U Haul cost if you're leaving California?
对啊。
Right.
多少钱
How much
如果你要去加州的话，费用是多少？
does it cost if you're going to California?
因为这才是衡量一个州发展状况的真正标准。
Because that's the real measure of whether a state's doing well.
对。
Yeah.
搬出加州的人比搬进去的还多，这种情况以前从未发生过。
The state has more people moving out than moving in, and that has never happened before.
没错。
Correct.
我1994年搬到加州，直到离开为止，交通状况每年都在恶化。
California's when I moved there in 1994 until I left, it was always every year traffic got worse.
每年都有更多人搬过去。
Every year, more people moved there.
每年都这样。
Every year.
我特别喜欢那里。
And I loved it.
我真的特别喜欢。
I loved it.
从我搬过去的那一刻起就爱上了。
I loved it from the time I moved there.
我当时就觉得，这地方太棒了。
I was like, this place is great.
全年都暖和。
It's warm all the time.
天气好得没话说。
The weather's fantastic.
有太多有趣的事情可以做。
There's so much cool stuff to do.
当地人也特别好。
The people are great.
是的。
Yeah.
结果政治把一切都毁了。
And then politics ruined it.
那就是说
That's
没错。
right.
我妻子是南加州圣地亚哥人，所以我们经常去那里。
So my wife's from Southern California, San Diego, and so we spend a fair amount of time there.
我依然对洛杉矶有种说不出的失落感。
And I I just I mean, I still feel a certain sense of, like, heartbreak over LA.
每次我去洛杉矶，都能明白为什么它曾是典型的美国城市。
Oh, I just Every time I'm in LA, you can see why this was, like, the quint essentially American city.
那里的建筑太美了。
The architecture is beautiful.
自有一股独特的氛围。
It's got its own vibe going.
就像你说的，天气简直完美。
Like you said, the weather is amazing.
可你一开车经过流浪汉区，
And then you drive through Skid Row,
就会忍不住想，怎么会有州或城市允许这种事发生？
and you're like, how could any state or any city let this happen?
现在流浪汉区已经扩展到五十五个街区了。
Skid Row is now 55 blocks.
以前才五十个街区。
It was 50 blocks
是的。
Yeah.
就一两年前的事儿。
Just like a year or two ago.
明白了。
Okay.
我第一次接触Skid Row，是因为乌莎当时在南加州一家特别高端的诉讼事务所工作。
So my my first experience with Skid Row was so Usha used to work at this, like, very fancy litigation firm in in Southern California.
在当第二夫人之前，她是个企业诉讼律师。
Before she was second lady, she was a corporate litigator.
有一年圣诞节，公司在洛杉矶市中心办派对，她公司给了我们一长串特别复杂的路线指引，告诉你怎么去那个派对。
So there's a Christmas party in Downtown LA, and you get these instructions from her firm and they're like this really convoluted way of this is how you have to get to this Christmas party.
我当时就想，干嘛非得按这些说明走？
And I'm like, why do I have to follow these directions?
直接用谷歌地图不就得了？
Why don't you just put it in Google Maps?
那是五六年，甚至七年前的事了。
This is like five or six, seven years ago.
所以我们才明白，他们给你这些绕来绕去的路线，就是为了让你晚上避开斯凯德罗区。
So we realized that the reason why they gave you these convoluted directions was so that you could avoid Skid Row at night.
如果你按谷歌地图走，就得开车穿过斯凯德罗区才能到派对现场。
And so you get to this party, you drive through Skid Row if you follow Google Maps' directions.
到了那儿，你会发现一个特别高档的场所，有精致的美食和高档红酒，外面还站着全副武装的保安，围着高高的围墙。
You get there and it's like this beautiful facility with like fancy food and fancy wine and then there are armed guards outside of it and these gigantic walls.
我当时就在那儿，突然意识到一件事：这让我想起了什么？
And I realized when I was there, you know what this reminds me of?
这让我想起当年去海地太子港的美国大使馆。
This reminds me of going to the US Embassy in Port Au Prince, Haiti.
里面是极致的安全、财富和特权，外面却是贫困和绝望。
Like super security, crazy wealth and privilege and status on the inside and squalor and misery on the outside.
那是我第一次觉得，美国的这一部分，居然比我想过任何我们国家会变成的样子都更像第三世界国家。
Like, it's the first time I'd ever thought America like, this part of America is actually more like a third world country than anything that I thought we'd ever become.
我问你一个问题。
Let me ask you this.
是的
Yeah.
为什么像洛杉矶和纽约这样的大城市几乎总是由民主党执政？
Why is it that large population centers like places like Los Angeles and New York are almost always run by the Democrats?
是的
Yeah.
先说说洛杉矶最近的初选吧，那情况真是让人想不到。
Like what is it about first of all, what happened with the last election in Los Angeles, the the the just the primary.
我觉得太离谱了。
I I think was Crazy.
简直可疑到极点。
So super sus.
对。
Yes.
它
It
这事儿太可疑了。
why it's super sus.
不只是第二名的斯宾塞·普拉特被妮莎·拉曼在邮寄选票中反超，这些邮寄选票还通过了一项增税提案。
Not just super sus that Spencer Platt Spencer Pratt, who was in second place, got overtaken by Nithya Raman in the mail in ballots, but that the mail in ballots also passed a tax hike.
人们投票同意多交税。
The people voted to pay more taxes
没错。
Yep.
在这样一个税率已经最高的州。
In a state where you have the highest taxes.
说得对。
That's right.
他们居然觉得税还不够高。
They're like, we don't pay enough.
这简直疯狂。
That is insane.
而且还有直接证据显示，他们一直在拉拢无家可归的人
And then when you have direct evidence that they were recruiting homeless people
没错
That's right.
还给这些人香烟和现金，让他们帮忙投票
And they were getting homeless people and giving them cigarettes and cash.
确实有证据，没错
There's evidence Yes.
利用他们的地址来寄选票
To use their their address and mail in ballots.
是的
Yeah.
我要是能赢过那个加州的乔就好了，他每天早上醒来就说：
I would've I would've beat the Californian Joe who wakes up in the morning and says, you know what?
我今天要去投赞成加税的票。
I'm gonna go and vote for higher taxes.
我交的税还不够多。
I don't pay enough taxes.
我觉得只要我多交百分之五，这问题就能解决。
I I feel like we can fix this if I just pay five more percent.
多交百分之五的税。
Percent more taxes.
最荒谬的是，事情是这样的。
The crazy thing about it too is it's that okay.
最初的所有选票统计完后，凯伦·巴斯排第一，斯宾塞·普拉特紧随其后，第三名是这个谁。
So after the initial ballots all came in, it was Karen Bass was number one, Spencer Pratt was right right behind her, and then number three, whatever this one was.
史密斯·希拉曼。
Smith Smith Hiraman.
明白了。
Okay.
所以你本来会以为，邮寄选票的结果和初选结果差不多，排名也是一、二、三这样。
So you would expect the mail in ballots to be more or less like the original ballots in terms of one, two, and three.
我不是说斯宾塞·佩雷斯一定会在邮寄选票中胜出，但奇怪的是，第三名在相对比例上表现得比第一、第二名好太多了。
I'm not saying Spencer Perez is gonna win the mail in ballots, but it just so happened that the third place person in relative terms did a lot better than the first and second place
这个人按比例来说表现得更好。
This person is proportionately better.
结果共和党候选人反而被挤出了竞选，导致加利福尼亚根本没形成真正的选举。
Such that the Republican was actually kicked out of the race so that there's not actually a real election in California.
对我来说，这才是最不可思议的地方。
That to me was the crazy part.
这就像是在刻意设计票数分布，好把普拉特淘汰掉，让第三名挤进第二名。
It's like you were designing the vote share in order to kick Pratt out and put the third person into second place.
这对我来说简直太离谱了。
That to me is, like, very, very bizarre.
既然如此，邮寄选票的理论又怎么解释，为什么对妮莎的支持率会远高于凯伦·巴斯？
Because what is the theory of the mail in vote that is somehow, like, so much more pro Nithya relative to Karen Bass.
这完全说不通。
Makes no sense.
这完全说不通。
Makes no sense.
这完全说不通。
Makes no sense.
那为什么会这样呢？
So why would it be?
对啊。
Yeah.
到底为什么会这样？
Why why would it be?
凯伦·巴斯在各项指标上都领先啊。
I mean, Karen Karen Bass was ahead by every metric.
是的。
Yeah.
但好吧。
But, I mean okay.
所以你提出一个问题。
So you ask a question.
为什么这些蓝色州，或者这些大城市、人口中心，最后都变成了蓝色呢？
Why do all these blue states or why do all these big cities, population centers end up becoming end up becoming blue?
我觉得这背后原因特别复杂。
And I think it's like a very complicated.
对吧？
Right?
你几个月前说过一件事。
So one thing and you said this a few months ago.
当时我听了还挺不爽的，但后来想想，这话还真有点道理——共和党本质上还是缺点吸引力。
And when you said it, I was kind of annoyed by it, but then I thought, there's an element of truth to it, is that Republicans still fundamentally have a cool problem.
民主党相比右翼，确实显得更有魅力、更酷一些。
There's something more charismatic, more cool about the Democrats as opposed to the right.
真有这回事吗？
Does it?
你之前说过，右边的人太多书呆子了，之类的话。
And so you you said something about there are too many dorks or something on the right.
书呆子确实不少。
There's a lot of dorks.
这话有道理。
You know, fair.
我觉得右边的书呆子确实很多。
I'd say there's a lot of dorks on
左边也不少。
the left too.
只是类型不一样。
It's a different kind
不一样的书呆子。
of dork.
是另一种类型的书呆子。
It's a different kind of dork.
但关键是，有点儿东西，你知道的，就是这么回事。
But the the point is that there's something, you know, like, okay.
如果你是流行歌手、摇滚明星或者演员，身处这些文化中心，你更可能倾向左翼而不是右翼。
If you're a pop star, you're a rock star, you're an actor, you're in all these cultural centers, you're more likely to be left than right.
对。
Uh-huh.
所以我觉得，很多年轻人被这些人口密集区吸引，自然就跟着主流文化走。
And so I think that a lot of young people who are attracted to these population centers, they sort of move along with the prevailing culture.
我觉得这是其中一个原因。
I think that's one thing that's going on.
我觉得另一个原因是，那些被某种右翼政治理念吸引的人。
I think a second thing that's going on is the people who are sort of attracted to a certain kind of right of center politics.
他们想要郊区，想要独栋住宅，希望清静，不想听见邻居的动静。
They want the suburbs, they want the single family home, they kind of want to be left alone, they don't want sort of to be able to hear what their neighbors are doing.
所以我觉得，这多少是种文化上的自我隔离，也导致这些人口密集区都转向了左翼。
So I think a little bit of it's just cultural self segregation and that's meant that a lot of these population centers have gone blue.
但这事儿特别复杂。
But it's very complicated.
我早就反复琢磨过这个问题。
I've thought about this a lot.
我可不是那种说咱们该把加州彻底丢给民主党、让他们自己收拾烂摊子的人。
And I also just man, I like I'm not one of these people who says we should just abandon California to the Democrats, like let them deal with their own problems.
我觉得加州是美国梦最典型的代表。
I think California is like a quintessential part of the American dream.
要是真扔了加州，那就等于丢掉了美国文化里非常核心的一部分。
Like if you just abandoned California, you've like lost something very core to American culture.
我就是不想放弃它。
And I I just I don't wanna give up on it.
我也没说在我有生之年能赢下加州，但我就是受不了放弃它的想法。
Like I'm not saying we're gonna win California in my lifetime necessarily, but I don't like the idea of giving up on it.
这可不是简单的放弃，放弃它简直太糟糕了。
Well, it's not just giving up on I mean, giving up on it would be terrible.
加州是个很棒的州。
It's an awesome state.
真正的问题在于，它腐败得厉害。
The the real problem is it's deeply corrupt.
我是说，腐败得非常严重。
I mean, deeply, deeply corrupt.
他们想做的，就是让对方根本赢不了。
And what they're trying to do is make it impossible for the other side to win.
是的。
Yeah.
这种行为应该被法律禁止。
And there should be laws against that.
首先，邮寄选票只该给那些真正无法出门的残障人士、军人，或者因为特殊原因在国外服役的人。
First of all, the idea of mail in ballots for anybody other than people who are invalids, who can't live their homes, or military, or people that are for some reason, they're serving overseas or doing something overseas.
除此之外，其他人用邮寄投票就不该合法。
It should not be legal.
没错。
That's right.
而且疫情期间邮寄投票变得如此普遍，这才是大问题。
And the fact that it became ubiquitous during COVID is a giant problem.
对。
Yeah.
这让我想到一个无关但很重要的点。
So this raises one of my total segue here side point.
你还记得2020年大选后，大家吵得沸沸扬扬，说选举有没有被操纵，各种诉讼满天飞吗？
But so if you remember in the aftermath of the twenty twenty election where there was all this, like, debate about was the election stolen, was the election not stolen, all the litigation that moved through.
宾夕法尼亚州有个案子当时没引起多少关注，我可能说得不太准确，但大概是一个农村地区的选民说：你们没算准我的票，因为你们没像费城和匹兹堡那样提供邮寄投票的机会。
There was a case in Pennsylvania that didn't get very much attention, and I'm going to butcher it a little bit, but basically it was a guy in a rural area of Pennsylvania saying, You're under counting my vote because we didn't have the opportunity to do the mail in ballots like they did in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
他的论点其实是一种不公平的影响，对吧？
And like the argument was a kind of disparate impact, right?
城市那边大搞邮寄投票和收集选票，可我们这边根本没有这种待遇。
The cities ginned up all the mail in balloting and the ballot harvesting.
你们在农村地区没这么做，这影响了我们的代表权。
You didn't do that in the country and that hurt sort of our representation.
于是他们把这起案件告到了宾夕法尼亚州的法院。
So they take this case to the Pennsylvania courts.
奇怪的是，州法院居然说，你这个说法有点道理。
And what's crazy is the Pennsylvania courts basically say, you're making kind of a good point here.
邮寄投票的集中操作确实对共和党选民造成了更不利的影响。
Like the ballot harvesting did affect Republicans in a more negative way.
这意味着州内一些偏远地区的选民被低估了。
It did mean that certain people in the more rural parts of the state were underrepresented.
但法院最终的结论是，这不是法院能解决的问题。
But then the court conclusion was this is not a problem a court can fix.
这属于政治问题。
Like that's a political problem.
换掉你当地的选举官员，修改相关法律。
Change your local elections leaders, change your laws.
法院根本没这个权力来解决这种问题。
Like that's not a remedy that the court has to fix.
所以大家一看这个案子，就觉得：哦，法官判了特朗普和共和党输，因为他们说选举有不合法的地方。
And so everybody saw that case and they're like, oh, judge rules against Donald Trump, rules against Republicans for saying that there was something illegitimate.
但其实法官的意思是，这事确实有点不对劲。
But no, actually, the judge kinda said there is something kinda fishy here.
只是我们不适合来处理它。
We're just the wrong venue to fix it.
更让人沮丧的是，你不得不承认选举真的可能被操纵，尤其是加州那次，对我触动特别大。
Well, it's just very disheartening that you you have to consider the fact that it's really possible that the elections get stolen and the California one was a big one for me.
那为什么不直接用邮寄投票，或者干脆搞个选民身份验证呢？
And why not just have mail in or why not just have voter ID?
对。
Yeah.
你确实看到过离谱的事。
You actually saw insane.
他们不仅不要求出示身份证，而且你根本不能出示。
Not only did they not have voter ID, you can't show your ID.
你被禁止出示身份证。
You're not allowed to show your ID.
如果你试图强迫别人出示身份证，反而可能被起诉。
You could in fact be like prosecuted if you try to force somebody to show their ID.
这看起来就像是在纵容人作弊。
Which is that seems like you want people to cheat.
没错。
Exactly.
而这些话竟出自同一批人之口，就在四年前，他们还说你必须出示疫苗接种证明。
And this is from the same people that were saying you have to have an ID that shows you've been vaccinated just four years ago
才能进餐厅。
to go to a restaurant.
不管是购物还是进餐厅。
Shopping or to go to a restaurant.
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
这正是让我和我政治立场相近的人对民主党做法产生怀疑的关键所在。
It's it's definitely that's the part about it that I think makes most people of my political persuasion skeptical of what the Democrats are doing.
如果你真不想选举舞弊，那就让每个人都出示身份证。
Like, you don't wanna cheat in the election, then just make everybody actually show an ID.
还有件事很多人没意识到，我也是几年前才明白的。
What another thing people don't realize is I didn't realize until a couple years ago.
选民身份证能解决很多邮寄选票的问题，因为如果你必须出示身份证才能申请邮寄选票，这样才能确认选票和真实身份挂钩，这就能解决很大一部分问题。
The voter ID solves a lot of the mail in ballot problem because if you have to show an ID in order to get a mail in ballot, order to actually, you know, confirm that there's a real identification attached to that vote, that solves a big chunk of the problem too.
合情合理。
Just logical.
对。
Yes.
我不是不信任，真的。
Like, I don't I'm not I'm not skeptical.
我不怀疑。
I'm not skeptical.
我在指控他们。
I'm accusing them.
我觉得他们偷了选举。
I think they stole the election.
对。
Yes.
而且我觉得这很普遍。
And I'm I'm I think it's common.
那种说选举不可能被操纵的说法。
And I you know, this idea that elections can't be stolen.
我常跟人说，好吧。
I always say to people, okay.
你觉得选举舞弊的比例是零吗？
Do you think that the amount of election fraud is 0%?
没人这么想。
No one thinks that.
对。
Yeah.
没人觉得是零。
No one thinks it's zero.
没错。
Exactly.
总有些过于热心的人，在某个地方干些出格的事。
There's always some overzealous person that works somewhere that's doing something.
总有些怪人。
There's always crazy people.
不管是谁，反正蓝方不管怎样都要赢，红方也一样。
They're like blue no matter who, we gotta win, or red no matter what.
总有人左右都在拼命想操纵选举，因为他们觉得这至关重要。
There's always people right and left that are going to try to rig the election because they think it's imperative.
你看啊。
Our like, look.
我们明明看到，像奥普拉·温弗瑞这样的人都说过这样的话。
We we saw there was people like Oprah Winfrey was saying it.
他们说，如果我们赢不了这次选举，以后可能就再也别想投票了。
Like, if we don't win this election, we you may never vote again.
什么？
Like, what
你到底在说什么？
the fuck are you talking about?
谁会容忍这种事？
Like, why would who's gonna tolerate that?
没错。
That's right.
你说得对。
You're right.
这太离谱了。
That's crazy.
没错。
That's right.
但这种态度让人觉得作弊也有道理。
But that attitude allows people to justify cheating.
对。
Correct.
我觉得他们确实作弊，而且早就这么干了，要不是为了作弊，你根本找不到不搞选民身份验证的理由。
And I think they cheat, And I I think they've been doing it forever, and I don't think there's any other reason why you would have no voter ID.
他们还说，要求选民身份证明是种族歧视。
And they try to say, oh, it's racist to have voter ID.
你这话说得什么跟什么啊？
Like, what are you talking about?
你觉得其他种族的人连车管所都去不了吗？
Do you think other races are incapable of going to the DMV?
这太荒谬了。
That's insane.
就是就是
It's it's
就是就是
it's That's that's
这是种族歧视。
racist.
这实际上是严重的种族歧视。
It's actually super racist.
这确实是非常种族歧视的。
That's really racist.
他们这种说法的潜台词，简直就是说黑人和西班牙裔根本去不了车管所办身份证。
The implication of their argument is literally like blacks and Hispanics cannot go to the DMV to get an ID.
顺便说一句，看看民调数据，非裔美国人对选民身份验证的支持率其实很高。
By the way, if you look at the polling, black Americans are as pro voter ID.
尽管大多数非裔美国人投票给民主党，但他们支持选民身份验证的程度丝毫不亚于白人。
Even though the you know, most black Americans vote Democrat, they're still pro voter ID as much as white Americans is.
大多数美国人
Most Americans
都支持选民身份验证，除了那些政治操盘手。
are voter they want voter ID except for operatives.
所以我在这期乔·罗根播客上提出一个提议：作为美利坚合众国的副总统，如果民主党真觉得选举没有舞弊，那就通过选民身份验证吧。
So I'll offer on the Joe Rogan podcast this deal as vice president of These United States that if Democrats really don't think that there's any cheating, give us voter ID.
我实在想不通这有什么问题。
I just don't know how it's not.
那样的话，我们就不再纠结了。
And we'll stop talking.
为什么这不是一项联邦法律？
Why is that not a federal thing?
我们正在努力把它变成联邦法律。
We are trying to make it a federal thing.
所以我们现在正在推动《拯救美国法案》的通过。
So we are part right now trying to pass the Save America Act.
其中一项主要内容就是要求 voter ID，我觉得参议院里其实已经有大多数议员支持了，但就是这些参议院的程序性麻烦在拖后腿。
One of its main provisions is a requirement that you do voter ID, and we actually have, I think, a majority of the senate that would support it, but this is just weird senate procedural bullshit.
有一部分人支持 voter ID，却不愿意打破议事阻挠来实现它。
There is a subsegment of people who want voter ID but won't blow up the filibuster in order to achieve it.
他们太固守这些过时的参议院规则了，结果让我们根本没法通过《拯救美国法案》。
And so they're so married to these old world senate procedures that they're gonna make it impossible for us to pass Save America.
现在我们也在想办法解决这些问题，想改掉这些奇怪又陈旧的程序障碍。
Now we're we're for what it's worth trying to fix that and trying to address these, like, weird procedural archaic things.
这简直太荒谬了。
It's insane, though.
比如，如果你曾经……
Like, if you ever okay.
我猜你经常听到别人谈论阻挠议事吧。
I'm sure you hear people talk about the filibuster all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
我倒没怎么注意过。
I don't
我不想在这上面扯太远。
wanna go too far down this rabbit hole.
简单说说阻挠议事是怎么回事。
Here's what the filibuster is.
这完全是参议院自己定的规矩。
It is a pure senate rule.
它是参议院程序的一部分，大意是：凡涉及预算的议案，只需50票就能通过。
It is a creation of the senate procedures, which basically says that anything that has to do with the budget is a 50 vote threshold.
而所有其他非预算类的议案，则需要60票才能通过。
And anything that everything else non budgetary is a 60 vote threshold.
你能想象，有些事情到底算不算预算相关，其实界限挺模糊的，该算50票还是60票，常有争议。
Now, as you can imagine, there's some gray area on things that maybe are counted as budget issues and should be 50 or not budget issues and count at 60.
所以我们一直在努力说服参议院，把选民身份证法案归入50票通过的范畴。
So what we have tried to persuade the Senate to do is to treat the voter ID as something that can fall within the 50 vote threshold.
但说到底，法律里没这规定，宪法里也没这一条。
And there is no law, there's no provision in the constitution.
偏偏有些参议员死死抱着‘预算50票、非预算60票’这规矩不放，甚至不惜阻挠美国的选民身份证法案。
It is legitimately that there are senators who are so attached to the idea that budget is 50, non budget is 60, that they're quite literally willing to prevent voter ID in America.
天哪。
God.
这太荒唐了，
It's nuts,
真的。
dude.
简直不可思议。
It's it's so crazy.
而且她对这件事的看法也真是够离谱的，凯西·霍切尔就是这么讲的。
And it's also, like, the idea that somehow or like, Kathy Holchel had the craziest take on it.
你听说了吗？她经常这样。
Did you She often does.
你看过她是怎么说的吗？
Did you see her take on it?
我没看过。
I have not.
她说城里黑人连电脑是什么都不知道。
She was talking about black people in inner cities not even knowing what a computer is.
你见过这个说法吗？
Did you ever see that?
没有。
No.
我没看过这个。
I didn't see that.
天哪。
Oh my god.
太离谱了。
It was so crazy.
然后有个黑人喜剧演员拍了个特别搞笑的视频，他围着一台电脑转圈，摸来摸去，一副完全不知道这是啥的样子。
And then this one comedian, this black comedian did this hilarious video where he was, like, circling around a computer staring at it, like, touching it like you didn't know what it was.
这话说得也太离谱了吧。
It's just like, what are you talking about?
现在谁没手机啊。
Everyone has a phone.
手机就是电脑。
That's a computer.
这么多所谓的
So many of these
民主派的论调，都默认自己的选民是傻子。
democratic talking points presume that their own voters are actual idiots.
我的意思是，共和党这边，我们默认选民都是成年人，但民主党那边就不是这样，当然我不是说所有民主党人都这样。
Like, that's actually there there's a big difference between, you know, Republicans, we sort of presume that our voters are adults, and you don't see that with a I'm not saying every Democrat, of course.
我也不想一棍子打死所有人。
I don't wanna cast too broad of a brush here.
但你看，几个月前加文·纽森做过一次演讲。
But it's it's like, you know, Gavin Newsom did this speech a few months ago.
总统的那次讲话特别搞笑，他面对的是一群黑人领袖和黑人企业家，但台下观众几乎百分之九十五都是黑人。
The president, I think, it's the funniest thing ever because he's, like, speaking to a group of black leaders and black businessmen, but it it's like an audience that is 95% black.
他们问他关于读写障碍和求学经历的事，他却直接说，是的。
And they're asking him about his dyslexia and his struggle with education, and he basically says, yeah.
我其实没那么聪明，跟你们很多人一样。
You know, I'm not very smart like a lot of you.
这简直让人无语。
And it's
就像我和你们是一样的。
like I'm like you.
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