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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
《乔·罗根体验》。
The Joe Rogan experience.
记录我的一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
你知道他是谁。
You know who he is.
对吧？
Right?
当然，我知道他是谁。
Course, I know who he is.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我，我相信他。
And I I believe him.
我也相信。
I do too.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，他确实看起来很可信。
I mean, he he certainly seems believable.
你知道，有些人几十年如一日地讲同一个故事，一点变化都没有，这很难得。
I I'm you know, people that tell the same story for decades and decades without any variation to it, it's hard.
我的意思是，你知道，我不清楚到底发生了什么，但当时和他在一起的那些人——对现在刚听的听众说一下，我们说的是特拉维斯·沃尔顿，他七十年代在亚利桑那州当伐木工，据他自己说，他被外星人绑架了。
I mean, as you know, he I don't know what happened, but all the people that were with him during the time we're talking about, for people just listening now, talking about Travis Walton, was a man who in the nineteen seventies was a logger in Arizona, and he was, allegedly, according to him, abducted by aliens.
而且，当时和他一起的人看到他被一道光束击中了。
And, the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light.
他们吓坏了，赶紧开车跑了。
They freaked out, took off.
他们开着车跑，然后心想，我们得回去找他。
They they were driving away, and they were like, we gotta go back and get him.
我们得回去找他。
We gotta go back and get him.
他们掉头回去，想把他弄回来。
They turned around, went back and got him, tried to get him.
但他已经不见了。
He was gone.
飞船不见了，他消失了五天，然后突然出现，讲了个离奇的故事。
The craft was gone, and he disappeared for five days and then turned up and had this insane story.
对。
Yeah.
然后他还接受了那种测试，比如
And then he's taken those tests like
测谎测试？
Polygraph tests?
对。
Yeah.
测谎测试，好像每年都做一次之类的。
Polygraph tests, like, every year or something like that.
他定期去测，而且每次都通过。
He takes them regularly, and he always passes them.
嗯，当时和他一起的那些人也通过了。
Well, so did the people that were with him.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我最近还看到有人采访当时和他在一起的那些人。
And they and I've seen people interview the people that were with him even just recently.
他们就说，嗯，不管我对特拉维斯这个人怎么看，那件事确实发生了。
And they're like, well, whatever regardless of what I think about Travis as a person, yeah, that happened.
对。
Yeah.
其中一个人其实在绑架当天还跟他打了一架。
One of the guys actually got in a fist fight with him the day of the abduction.
那个人很不喜欢他。
The guy did not like him.
可以说，他们互相讨厌。
Like, they hated each other.
然后，你知道，他们都是年轻人。
And then, you know, they were young guys.
对。
Yeah.
后来他不得不作证，他就说，事情确实发生了。
And then he had to testify, and he was like, it happened.
发生了。
Happened.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不管是什么情况。
So Whatever it was.
所以我信他。
So I believe him.
而且这些年来，他的解读也变了很多。
And his his interpretation has changed a lot too through the years.
但事实本身没变。
And not the the facts.
事实都是一样的。
The facts are all the same.
但他对事实的解读变了，比如，他以前觉得那些事挺糟糕的，对吧？
But his interpretation of them like, you know, were they because he thought they were pretty maligned, like bad.
对吧？
Right?
他并不享受被绑架的经历。
He didn't enjoy being abducted.
可以这么说。
Let's put it that way.
但后来这些年，他又说，也许确实发生了什么灵异事件，不过我现在也不知道他到底怎么想了。
But then over the years, he said, well, maybe something spiritual happened, but I don't know where he's at right now.
我最近没看到他的采访。
I haven't seen a recent interview.
现在有个挺有意思的访谈，他和鲍勃·拉扎尔面对面坐着。
There's an interesting one that's out now with him and Bob Lazar sitting across from each other.
哇。
Wow.
对。
Yeah.
在一家小餐馆里。
In a diner.
感觉特别奇怪。
It's very weird.
他们坐在那儿吃派，聊着他们觉得这整件事是怎么回事。
And they're sitting there eating pie talking about, you know, what they think this whole thing is.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，这方面有什么新进展吗？
So what's new in the the world of all this?
嗯，有很多。
Well, a lot.
对吧？
Right?
所以政府从2026年5月开始陆续公开UFO文件，很多人觉得这事儿特别重要，你知道，这算是一种信息披露。
So the government has been releasing UFO files since May 2026 and this is something that a lot of people think is really important and, you know, it's a form of disclosure.
他们正在推动这个团体，而且很高兴看到这一切在发生。
They're pushing the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening.
他们还希望总统能站出来说，是的，确实存在这些东西。
They're also wanting the president to come out and say, yeah, we there are these things.
我前几天在你的节目上看到了JD·万斯。
I saw JD Vance on your show the other day.
那真的很有意思。
That was really interesting.
当然，我对他的发言很感兴趣。
He's of course, I I was interested in what he had to say.
你对他说的那些话，多少有点反驳的意思。
You kind of pushed back on his what he was talking about in terms of calling.
我不想用那个词，那个D开头的词。
I don't wanna use that word, the d word.
对吧？
Right?
恶魔？
Demons?
对。
Yeah.
你为什么不想用那个词？
Why don't you wanna use that word?
因为我必须趁这个机会说明，我现在是以个人身份在你的播客上发言，不代表我的大学谈论这件事。
Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual, and I don't represent my university talking about this.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以我是说，说真的，看看他的下场。
So I mean, seriously, look what happened to him.
他基本上就是很坦诚地说，是的，我觉得这些就是恶魔。
So he basically, you know, was honest and said, yeah, I think that these are, you know, demons.
但你知道，那成了头条新闻，乔。
Well, you know, that was the headline, Joe.
可如果你真的去听他说了什么，其实情况要复杂得多。
But when you actually listen to what he had to say, it was more complicated.
所以我觉得他跟你聊这个话题聊得挺好的。
And so I thought that he did a good job of talking about it with you.
如果你想的话，我们可以聊聊他为什么会有那种想法。
If you want, we can talk about that, why he would think that.
他是天主教徒。
He is Catholic.
我也是天主教徒。
I'm Catholic.
我研究天主教历史，这也是我工作的一部分。
I do history of Catholicism is part of what I do.
顺便说一下，我是一所大学的宗教学教授。
By the way, I'm a professor of religious studies at university.
是的，所以我一直在关注这个。
So yeah, so I've been like looking at that.
我这辈子都在研究天主教历史。
I've been doing Catholic history my whole life.
所以我从2012年开始研究UFO经历。
So I started do looking into UFO experiences in 2012.
是的。
And yeah.
所以损失是新的，或者说很多东西都是新的。
So the loss is new or lots of stuff is new.
明白吗？
Okay?
我觉得他对于为什么认为它们是恶魔，并没有给出很令人满意的解释。
I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say, think they are demons.
对。
Yeah.
我可以补充一下。
I can fill that out.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
或者补充一下。
Or fill that in.
行。
Alright.
所以他是从天主教神学的角度出发的。
So he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology.
在天主教神学里，当他们研究异常现象——也就是超自然异常现象时，宗教历史上其实发生过很多奇怪的事情。
So in Catholic theology, there are generally if you're looking at anomalous phenomena which they do supernatural anomalous phenomena, a lot of weird stuff happens within the history of religions.
所以他们有一套分类体系来理解这些东西，基本上分为三类，三种不同的情况。
So they have categories for understanding this stuff and the categories include three different categories basically, three different types of things.
超自然现象，他们认为这些是无法解释的，就像奇迹一样。
Supernatural things which they think can't be explained and that they're like miracles.
比如，一个绝症患者连续向某位圣徒祈祷，然后病就好了，医生也说查不出原因。
Know, someone terminally ill prays for a saint in succession and then they become healed and doctors say we can't figure that out.
那就是超自然现象。
That's supernatural.
那是来自上帝的奇迹。
That's a miracle from God.
好的。
Okay.
这是第一类。
That's one category.
另一类是自然现象。
The other category is the natural.
也就是自然界里的事物，我们可以解释它们，大家都知道什么是自然事件，比如飓风之类的。
So things that are within nature, we can explain them, you know, everybody's knows what a natural kind of event is, hurricanes and things like that.
但还有一些事件无法解释，却又够不上超自然的标准。
But there's an there are events that cannot be explained but don't merit supernatural the supernatural category.
顺便说一下，这类事件有个专门的词，他们称之为‘超自然之外’（preternatural）。
And those events can by the way, there's a word for it and they call it the preternatural.
对吧？
Okay?
就是超自然之外的范畴。
The preternatural.
这个分类，天主教从至少中世纪时期就有了。
And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period.
因为他们想搞清楚，比如说，我们就拿UFO来说吧。
And because they're trying to figure out, you know, if let's just talk about UFOs.
如果UFO现在出现了，那很可能它们已经存在很久了。
If UFOs are here now, most likely they've been around for a long time.
所以中世纪时期人们看到的东西，他们也有分类去理解，就像我们现在也在尝试一样。
And so whatever Casics were seeing in the medieval time period, they were had categories for trying to understand it just like we're trying to have too.
所以当时的神学家，比如阿奎那，托马斯·阿奎那。
And so there, they say the theologians at the time said like Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas.
他就说，好吧。
He said, okay.
超自然现象，指的是那些发生的事件，它们要么是天使般的，比如好的事情，要么是恶魔般的，也就是堕落天使或其他东西，因为上帝创造了可见和不可见的事物，有些是我们看不见的。
The preternatural, these are events that happen and they're either angelic like, you know, good things like that or demonic which are fallen angels or other things because God has created other things other than you know, he's created the unseen and the seen, some things that we can't see.
所以在超自然领域，人们会有一些经历，这些经历似乎和人们谈论被UFO绑架时的体验很相似——那些能出现又消失的存在，那些似乎能读懂你心思的存在。
So in the preternatural, there happens to be experiences that people have with things that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted by UFOs, beings that that appear and disappear, beings that can seemingly read your mind.
这就是天主教徒所说的超自然这个神学范畴，我觉得JD·万斯想表达的就是这个意思。
So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the preternatural, and I think that's what JD Vance was trying to get at.
但为什么要把那称为恶魔呢？
But why would you call that a demon?
好。
Okay.
这个问题问得好。
So this is a good question.
接下来我就要稍微解释一下了。
And that's where I'm gonna kind of like help
好。
Okay.
我反驳你，然后你再反驳我。
Push back on you and then you could push back on me again.
好。
Alright.
所以，事实是，我们并不清楚。
So the the the fact is is that we don't know.
明白。
Okay.
我们不知道。
We don't know.
所以，人们会有类似的经历。
So there's analogous experiences that people have.
我从2012年开始做这个，已经很久了，毫无疑问，有这些经历的人和有过恶魔经历的人之间存在模式上的匹配。
Now that I've been doing this since 2012, a long time, it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences.
这只是类比，但并不能证明它们完全相同。
That's an analogy, but that doesn't prove that they're identical.
你说模式匹配，具体是指什么？
When you say pattern match, what do
对。
Yeah.
我指的是人们实际经历的那些事情。
You So I'm talking about what people actually experience.
当人们有这些经历时，他们身上会发生什么？
So when people have these experiences, what happens to them?
他们会报告说，东西突然出现又消失，有发光的光球，对，还有灯光闪现，以及空中现象。
They report things like things appearing and disappearing, luminous lights, okay, lights showing up, aerial phenomena.
他们还会报告说遇到了某种存在，这些存在能读懂他们的心思。
They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their minds.
他们还提到，有时感觉这些存在把想法塞进了他们脑子里。
They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds.
这些都是了解历史的天主教徒会说的，哇，这听起来像是那种情况。
These are all things that Catholics who know the history would say, Wow, that sounds like this kind of situation.
那是不是就意味着就是那种情况呢？
Does that mean it is that situation?
不，不是的。
There's no no.
我们不能说它就是。
We can't say that it is.
而这正是你观点的相关之处。
And that's where your point is relevant.
你的观点是，我们怎么知道它们是恶魔呢？
Your point is that how do we know that they're demons?
我们不知道它们是恶魔。
We don't know that they're demons.
但我觉得，这值得去探究一下其中的相似之处。
But it warrants an investigation, I think, into the similarities.
好的。
Okay.
但一提到恶魔，大多数人想到的是邪恶。
But when you think about demons, most people think about evil.
他们想到的是会对你做可怕事情的东西，比如附身，让你杀人，或者想杀你、偷走你的灵魂。
They think about something that does horrible things to you, possession, you know, something that causes you to murder people or something that wants to murder you or something wants to steal your soul.
这跟我们讨论的UFO经历完全不是一回事。
That doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences.
看起来你遇到的是拥有更高智慧和更先进技术的东西，非常不同，能通过心灵感应交流，但它们似乎没有恶意。
What it seems like is you're encountering something that has a superior intelligence, of superior technology, something that's very different that communicates telepathically, but they don't seem to have vicious intentions.
所以我不明白区别在哪里。
So I don't understand the distinction.
我理解你为什么称它为恶魔，除非你只是用这个古老的术语，因为古代经历这些的人可能没有词汇描述，也不知道自己经历了什么。
I understand why you would call that a demon unless you're just using that in this old school term because the people that were experiencing this supposedly or assumedly when we're talking about ancient times, and they didn't have words for it and they didn't know what they were experiencing.
他们就会称之为恶魔。
They would call that a demon.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以这个评论非常好，在2016年之前，我是同意你的看法的。
So this is a really good comment, and this is something that I'd agree with you, like before twenty sixteen.
我会说，对，你说得对。
I'd say, Yeah, you're right.
那是什么改变了呢？
What changed?
好的。
Okay.
我做了很多研究，发现我们可以举个例子，因为例子很有说服力。
I did a lot of research and what I found was that let's take an example because examples are good.
比如斯金沃克牧场。
Skinwalker Ranch.
有很多研究UFO的人，在UFO圈子里很有名，他们就在斯金沃克牧场工作。
So there are a lot of people who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well known to UFO people who work at Skinwalker Ranch.
好的。
Okay.
所以我很早就听说过‘天蛾人牧场’，大概2013年左右。
So I learned about Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013 or so.
我是从加里·诺兰那里听说的。
And I learned it from about it from Gary, Gary Nolan.
没错。
Alright.
他当时跟我聊起这个。
So he said he was talking to me about it.
他说：‘对，我很多朋友都在那里工作，他们想让我过去研究一下那里到底发生了什么。’
He said, Yeah, lot of my friends are working out there and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on.
那里有异常现象。
There's anomalous phenomena.
他们认为这和UFO有关，因为UFO会出现，诸如此类。
They think it's associated with UFOs because UFOs show up and this and that.
我就问，哦，那你打算去那儿吗？
And I said, Oh, are you gonna go out there?
他说，不去，我不去那儿。
And he said, No, I'm not going out there.
然后我就想，好吧，为什么？
And so I was like, Well, okay, why?
他说，因为那地方是负面的。
And he said, Because it's negative.
发生在人身上的事情，会带来一种叫‘搭便车效应’的东西。
The things that happen to people, get something called the hitchhiker effect.
所谓搭便车效应，就是那些跟闹鬼地方有关的可怕事情会跟着你回家。
And so the hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with like a haunted place follows you home.
对。
Right.
我之前听说过这个。
I've heard of that before.
对。
Yeah.
就是那个搭便车效应。
The the hitchhiker effect.
好像也叫搭便车综合征之类的。
I think it's called the hitchhiker syndrome or something.
我遇到过很多人都有这种经历，他们都有过UFO遭遇。
And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them who had had UFO experiences.
所以我觉得，不能说所有UFO经历都这样，但足够多的案例让我自己不想经历一次。
So I would say that no, not all UFO experiences are like that but enough of them are like that for me not to ever have one.
而且我也开始理解，超自然现象仍然是我们研究这个问题的最佳分类，因为对天主教徒来说，并非所有超自然现象都是负面的。
And also to associate the preternatural, that's what I started to understand that while the preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this because not all preternatural phenomena even for Catholics is negative.
对吧？
Right?
有些其实是非常正面的。
Some of this is actually really positive.
但问题是，人类很难分辨清楚。
But the thing the problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring figuring out.
比如，你知道，它们可能会欺骗人。
Like, you know, it could be deceptive.
这又是加里·诺兰出场的地方。
This is another thing where Gary Nolan comes in.
他上过塔克·卡尔森的节目，大概是四年前吧。
He was on Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like four years ago or something.
他说过，我也跟他聊过这个。
And he said and I've talked to him about this too.
塔克问他，这些家伙到底说了什么？
Tucker asked him about, well, what do these things you know, what do they say?
他回答说，哦，它们会说谎。
And he goes, oh, they lie.
它们很会骗人。
They they're deceptive.
他这个人呢，在宗教方面是没有任何立场的。
They, you know and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion.
就是说，他不属于任何宗教。
Like, he's not, you know, affiliated with any religion.
所以，你知道的。
So, you know
他说它们会撒谎，那具体有什么例子能说明它们在撒谎呢？
When he said they lie, like, what specific examples does he have of them lying?
好的。
Okay.
那你听我说。
So listen.
当我们开始审视这类经历和类似情况时，一个天主教徒，比如一位天主教神父会怎么做呢？他们会判断是否存在欺骗，识别是否有负面影响，因为对于超自然现象是有判断标准的。
When we start to look at this type of situation with, you know, these experiences and so forth, what a Catholic would do, like what a what a Catholic priest say would do, would be to identify if there if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are negative effects and you know because there's criteria for looking at the preternatural.
所以很多情况下，当发生这些被一些人视为正面、但另一些人并不这么认为的绑架事件时，就会出现这种情况。
And so a lot of things that happen are when you have these abductions which some people view as positive but some people don't.
他们不喜欢这些绑架事件。
They don't like these abductions.
所以是的，他们会说一些不真实的话。
So yeah, they'll say things that aren't true
比如说什么？
Like and what?
我不知道。
I don't know.
他们会说，比如，我举个例子。
They'll say like, okay, I'll take I'll take it an example.
我不会透露我知道的任何经历，但我确实知道很多。
I'm not gonna out any experiences that I know but I I know a lot.
所以到现在，大概有一千个人跟我聊过他们的经历。
So at this point, I've had like, I don't know, about a thousand people talk to me about their experiences.
其中一个人经常收到预言信息，有些应验了，但大部分都不准。
So one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true.
明白吗？
Okay?
也就是说，当一个异常存在或其他什么东西给了你一两个预言，而且它们成真了，你可能会愿意相信它，对吧？
That means when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous being or whatnot and it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right?
哦，这给我的信息挺准的。
Oh, this is telling me good information.
但后来它们开始不灵了。
But then they start not to come true.
然后如果那个人把这事公开，大家就会把他和虚假、欺骗联系在一起，这可不是什么好事。
And then if that person makes this public, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit, and that's not a positive thing.
但你有没有考虑过，这个人可能有精神疾病？
But have you taken into consideration that that this person might be mentally ill?
当然。
Of course.
当然考虑过。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就是那种他们不断接收到各种所谓预象的想法。
This this idea that they're getting all of these, like, whatever it is, visions.
我是说，他们是怎么接收到这些信息的？
I mean, how are they receiving this information?
是通过心灵感应吗？
Are they receiving it telepathically?
你说预言性的时候，是指那种吗？
Like, when you say prophetic?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，你问我那些人会怎么说，其实有好几种不同的情况。
So the so there are different so you asked me what kinds of people, like, what they would say.
对吧？
Right?
如果这些东西在欺骗他们，那他们就有了那些预言性的幻象。
When If the if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions.
对吧？
Right?
这些幻象是怎么在他们脑海里呈现出来的呢？
How is how are these visions manifesting themselves in their mind?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是像听到一个声音那样吗？
Is it coming as a voice?
他们是看到某个事件发生吗？
Are they seeing an event happen?
好的。
Okay.
所以人们接收这类信息的方式有很多种，比如预言信息。
So there are variety of ways in which people receive this type of information like prophetic information.
我觉得有些人确实能看到东西，而那些存在会通过心灵感应传递信息，就像脑对脑的传输那样。
I would say that some people actually see things and the beings impart telepathically like mind to mind transmission something.
这件事会发生。
This is gonna happen.
然后他们就相信了。
And then they believe it.
好的，这种情况发生在天使显灵之类的场合，比如圣母玛利亚显现。
Okay, this happens within like angel events, like Marian apparitions.
它也会发生在普通人身上。
It happens to, you know, people.
同样的情况也会发生在被绑架的人身上。
It happens to people in abductions as well.
而且，你知道，我的意思是，他们经历的就是这样。
And, you know, I I mean, that's what happens to them.
他们会看到一些东西。
They see things.
有时他们会在梦中看到幻象。
They sometimes have visions in their dreams.
所以人们有多种方式
So there's there are a variety of ways that people
来获取这些信息。
can get this information.
梦中的幻象也可能只是普通的梦。
Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams.
比如，他们怎么区分普通的梦，像‘哥斯拉在追我’这种？
Like, how can they just make a distinction between just dreams like, oh, Godzilla was chasing me.
我当时在玩滑板。
I was on a skateboard.
撞到了我表弟。
I ran into my cousin.
我们躲在他家地下室，然后我就醒了。
We hid in his basement, and then I woke up.
你看，那只是个梦。
Like, that's just a dream.
不是什么预言。
That's not a prophecy.
如果他们既做那种梦，又做那些他们认为受到某种存在启发的幻梦，
And if they're having those dreams as well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by Yeah.
那这两种梦同时存在于同一个人的脑海里，他们怎么区分呢？
Some entity, How are they making the distinction between the two of them if both of them exist at the same time in the same person's mind?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以在我们的文化里，我们通常把所有的梦都归为一类。
So within the culture of within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category.
我们会说，梦见哥斯拉之类的，所有梦都一样。
We say, the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same.
对吧？
Right?
要么是噩梦，要么是好梦，或者中性的梦。
They're either bad dreams or good dreams that are neutral.
但在其他文化中，人们会区分不同类型的梦。
Within there are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams.
而在西方文化里，历史上也曾有人区分过不同类型的梦。
And within the Western culture, there have been times when people have distinguished different types of dreams.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
比如说，你看《旧约》或者希伯来圣经。
Like say you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible.
里面有约瑟，对吧？
You have Joseph, right?
约瑟这个人将来会很有成就。
Joseph is a guy who's gonna be big.
他是个先知，他做的梦能预知未来，而且他能分辨这些梦的不同。
He's a prophet and he has dreams where he's able to tell the future and he's able to distinguish between those dreams.
所以在某些文化里，甚至包括今天的各种宗教文化，它们都有区分。
So within certain cultures, even cultures today like different religious cultures, they have distinctions.
澳大利亚的马尔杜人，他们谈论的是“梦境时代”。
The Mardu in Australia, they have you know, they they talk about the dream time.
所以我们这种文化倾向于把所有梦都归为一类，当然这也没错。
So we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category, and granted that's true.
在讨论一个人是否有精神疾病时，特拉维斯·沃尔顿并没有精神问题。
In terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walton is not mentally ill.
对。
Right.
但特拉维斯·沃尔顿并没有预言能力。
But Travis Walton is not having prophecies.
不。
No.
我知道。
I know.
但他不是那种人，而有些人确实有。
But he's he's one that doesn't, and there are others who do.
我明白。
I understand.
但我们聊到这里，是因为你提到了那些会欺骗的存在。
But we got to this place because you were talking about beings that deceive.
对吧？
Right?
所以我的意思是
So I'm saying
也就是说
that saying
不是所有都会欺骗，但我想说的是，我在试着解释
Not all of them deceive, but I'm saying that I'm trying to explain
我想问你的是。
I'm trying to ask you.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
它们是怎么欺骗的？
How are they deceiving?
我刚才不是说了吗。
Well, I just told you.
所以他们会向人们提供关于未来的信息，其中一些是正确的，一些则不是。
So they'll be giving people information about the future, some of which is correct and some of which is not.
好的。
Okay.
那他们是怎么把这些信息给到他们的呢？
So how are they giving them this information?
是通过心灵感应传递，还是通过异象和梦境的方式？
They're giving it to them telepathically, or is it coming to them in a vision and a dream?
这是他们……
It's They're
这是两种完全不同的方式。
two very different things.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
但具体要看情况，两种方式都有可能。
But it could be both depending on the instance.
对。
Right.
但如果是在梦里，他们怎么知道这是来自那个实体，而不是普通的梦呢？
But if it's in a dream, how do they know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream?
我就是这个意思。
That's my point.
你是说，他们其实是在
Like, you're saying that they're
被欺骗
being deceived
嗯，很多人不会去区分这一点。
Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction.
所以这时候就需要一个
And so that's where you need a
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被绑架者，是的。
The abductees Yeah.
不会区分这一点。
Won't make that distinction.
因为他们以前从未遇到过这种情况。
Because they've never had this happen to them before.
所以，他们当然会认为这是真的。
So, of course, they're going to think this is true.
但我的立场是，要小心，因为我们不知道这是真的还是假的。
But my position is that be careful because we don't know if it's true or if it's not.
对。
Right.
但我的意思是，你怎么区分这到底是他们的想象，还是他们被欺骗了？
But I mean, how are you making the distinction between what is just their imagination and them being deceived?
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This episode is brought to you by BlueChew.
我相信你肯定听说过BlueChew，但让我告诉你他们最近在做什么。
I'm sure you've heard of BlueChew by now, but let me tell you what they've been up to.
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And you know what?
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Two ingredients maximize blood flow for stronger, longer lasting boners, and two get you in the mood.
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It's designed to dissolve under your tongue for fast results.
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这则广告及其推广的产品仅面向美国观众。
This ad and the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience.
对。
Right.
这是个好问题。
That's the good question.
我不知道。
I don't know.
那加里·诺兰是怎么说他们在撒谎的？
So how is Gary Nolan saying they lie?
嗯，他拿数据来说事，指出他们告诉人们的信息是错误的。
Well, he's taking data, and he's saying that they're saying this inform you know, they're telling these people this information, and it's wrong information.
所以他并没有，你知道，他并没有试图做出什么大论断。
And so he's not making, you know, he's not trying to make a big claim.
他只是基本上在说，塔克问他为什么，他们到底说了些什么。
He's just basically saying, you know, Tucker asks him why, you know, what kind of things are they saying?
然后他说，他们被骗了。
And he said, well, they're being deceived.
对吧？
Right?
他们说了些骗人的话。
They say deceitful things.
顺便说一句，我的观点是回到最初的话题
And my point by the way, getting back to the original
但这确实让人很沮丧。
But it would be it's very frustrating.
你说吧。
Go ahead.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我知道你很沮丧。
I know you're frustrated.
但最初的问题是，JD·万斯说这些是恶魔，他到底在说什么？
But the original question here is what is JD Vance talking about when he's saying these are demons?
我想解释的是，他引用的是一个存在已久的神学分类，这个分类其实在判断人们现在经历这些事时发生了什么，非常有用。
And I'm trying to explain that he's referencing this theological category that has been around for a long time, and that is actually quite useful in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences now.
我想说的是，我并不是在主张这些就是某种体验。
I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that these are, like, experiences.
说实话，我不希望这种事发生在我身上，也不希望发生在任何人身上。
Honestly, I wouldn't want them to happen to me, and I don't wish them upon anyone.
但有些人
But some people
你不想见外星人吗？
You wouldn't wanna meet an alien?
不是人们通常遇到的那种外星人。
Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting.
所以
So
你想见哪种？
Which one would you like to meet?
嗯，
Well,
我不知道。
I don't know.
我是说，假设的话，我也不太确定
I mean, hypothetically, like, I'm not sure
这话是你说的啊。
that put it out there.
我无所谓。
I'm down.
如果它们想见我，我
If they wanna meet me, I'm
没问题。
down.
好吧。
Okay.
我很想见一个。
I'd love to meet one.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，我想知道。
I mean, I wanna know.
我不害怕。
I'm not scared.
他们看起来不会把你拐走。
They don't seem to steal you.
他们不会把你带走再也不送回来。
They don't take you away and never bring you back.
他们只是和你互动。
They just they just interact with you.
这个我能接受。
I'm down with that.
我的意思是，我们得区分一下，对吧。
I mean, we have to distinguish between yeah.
那就去吧。
Go for it.
遇到一个
Meet an
外星绅士。
alien gentleman.
你不想这样吗？
You wouldn't want that?
听着。
Look.
如果外星人
If aliens
写外星人书的人。
person who writes books about aliens.
是的。
Yes.
我确实写书。
I do write books.
嗯，算是跟外星人有点关系。
Well, somewhat about aliens.
我写的是关于外星人的宗教。
I write about the religion about aliens.
对。
Yes.
所以，是的。
But So yeah.
很多主题都跟地外智慧有关。
A lot of the subject matter has to do with extraterrestrial intelligence
或者随便怎么说吧。
or whatever it is.
对。
Yeah.
我们也不知道它到底是什么。
We don't know what it is.
这就是关键。
That's point.
外星智慧。
Extraterrestrial.
也可能是跨维度的。
It might be Interdimensional.
没错。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
或者它可能就在这里，是一种一直存在的、拥有更高智慧的生物。
Or it might be here, Something that's of a superior intellect that's been here all along.
也可能属于超自然范畴里的某种东西。
And it might be something within the category of the preternatural.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我的意思是，如果它真的是，不管它是什么，你说得对。
So my point is that if it is, if it whatever it is, you're right.
我一直在研究它，我可以这么说，如果那些就是外星人，那还是算了吧。
I've been studying it, and I can say that if those are the aliens, no.
我可不想见到他们。
I don't wanna meet them.
如果他们是那种——有人来告诉我，说‘我真希望这种事没发生在我身上’的那种，你明白吧——那我也不想见到那些水手。
If the if they're the ones that, like, people have come and told me about and said, I wish this never happened to me, you know, then, no, I don't want to meet the sailors.
那是不同的人。
It's different people.
对吧？
Right?
而且不同的人对经历的承受能力也不一样。
And different people have different tolerances for experiences.
当有人说‘我希望这事没发生在我身上’，那是因为他们承受不了，而其他人可能就能承受。
And when someone says, I wish this didn't happen to me, it's because they can't handle it, And whereas other people might be able to handle it.
也许吧。
Maybe.
但是，你看看那些战斗机飞行员，比如大卫·弗拉弗和……
But, like, look at the things that the fighter pilots, like David Fravor and
他们好像没什么问题。
They don't seem to have a problem with it.
他们可没说‘我希望这事没发生在我身上’这种话。
Like, they they're they're not saying, wish this never happened to me.
不是。
No.
但他们说这看起来挺危险的。
But they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous.
我不希望它首先……我希望这不是敌人的技术。
I wouldn't want it to first, I I hope that this does this isn't an enemy technology.
对。
Yes.
他们觉得，如果那是我们的敌人拥有的技术，那就完了。
They're like, if that's our if our enemies have this technology, it's done.
游戏结束了。
It's game over.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这挺吓人的。
So that's scary.
如果不是的话，那也绝对是我们应该注意的事情。
And if it's not, then it's definitely something that we should take notice of.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果那就是我们天空中的东西。
So if they're that that's what's in our skies.
而且一直有关于人的报告。
And there have been reports of people.
有一份澳大利亚的报告，说飞行员因为这种事情去世了，比如他们死了之类的。
There was an Australian report of pilots who have passed away because of this type of thing, like they died and so forth.
那怎么会这样呢？
So How so?
我们——我其实记不清具体是什么了，但有一份报告说，一个澳大利亚的年轻人遇到了天空中的什么东西，然后就再也没找到他了。
We I can't actually remember what it is, but it's it's a report of an Australian young guy who was who encountered something in the sky, and he was never found again.
他就这么……你知道，到底发生了什么？
He was just you know, what happened?
我也不清楚。
I don't know.
而且还有
And there
在空中消失了？
disappeared in the sky?
对。
Yeah.
而且还有
And there are
连飞机一起？
With the jet?
我不知道他是不是连飞机一起消失的。
I don't know if he disappeared with the jet.
真希望你对这个故事了解得更多一些。
I wish you knew more about this story.
是啊。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
也许有人能帮我们调出来看看。
Maybe someone could get it up for us, and we can look at it.
但这确实是个很有名的，是个很轰动的
But it's a really famous it's a really Slap
把钥匙拿开。
away the keys.
对。
Yeah.
这是一份非常著名的澳大利亚报告。
It's a really famous Australian report.
就是这个。
Here it is.
1978年，20岁的澳大利亚飞行员弗雷德里克·瓦伦蒂克？
It's 19 '78, 20 year old Australian pilot, Frederick Valentike Valentique?
我觉得是瓦伦蒂克。
I think it's Valentik.
瓦伦蒂克在巴斯海峡上空进行例行训练飞行时起飞了。
Valentik took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait.
一切看起来都很正常，直到他的无线电通讯开始出现。
Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began.
瓦伦蒂克报告说，有一架奇怪的飞行器悬停在他上方，有四个明亮的灯光，金属表面，速度惊人。
Valentique reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights, metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds.
然后是他最后那句令人毛骨悚然的话：那不是飞机。
Then came his final chilling words, it's not an aircraft.
之后，他就完全消失了。
After that, he vanished completely.
尽管进行了大规模搜索，他的塞斯纳飞机始终没有找到，也没有发现他的任何踪迹。
His Cessna was never found despite extensive searches, and no trace of him was ever recovered.
雷达曾在该区域探测到另一个物体，但它从未与其他航班有过交互。
Radar had detected another object in the area but never interacted with other flights.
直到今天，没人知道瓦伦丁是坠毁了、迷路了，还是遇到了某种更神秘的东西。
To this day, no one knows if Valentin crashed, got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious.
即便几十年过去，这仍然是航空史上最令人费解的失踪事件之一，而那位惊恐飞行员临终的话语，至今仍让听到的人不寒而栗。
Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances, and the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them.
所以，有这么一个人。
So there's one guy.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你可以去见见那个人，乔。
You can go meet that one, Joe.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我觉得吧
I think that
也许他现在在一个很酷的地方呢。
Maybe he's, like, in a cool place right now.
好吧。
Alright.
就在那儿悠闲着呢。
Just chilling.
在另一个维度里过得挺开心，跟那些生物待在一起，它们还给他讲解宇宙的未来。
Having a good time in another dimension, hanging out with these creatures, and they're explaining to him the future of the universe.
但你知道，我这份工作的问题在于，别人告诉我的很多信息，我其实都不能说出去。
But, you know, that the thing about what I do is I'm I have a lot of information that people impart to me that is that I can't actually talk about.
对吧？
Right?
而且遗憾的是，这种情况也发生在
And that sadly, that happens to people in
是因为他们让你别说的吗？
Because they ask you not to?
是的。
Yeah.
他们会说，我需要这方面的帮助，或者这是我的经历，我不想公开之类的。
They say, I need help with this or this is my experience and I don't want it public and so forth.
我的意思是
I mean
就算不透露他们的名字也不行？
Even without disclosing their name?
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
他们知道我知道他们是谁。
They I know who they are.
所以有飞行员来找我聊过。
And so I've had people who are pilots talk to me.
顺便问一下，这是咖啡吗？
Is this, by the way, coffee?
这是冰咖啡。
This is ice cold coffee.
怎么是凉的？
How's it cold?
什么？
What?
是冰的。
It's ice cold.
我煮了两遍。
I boiled it twice.
这咖啡？
This coffee?
再试试
Try to
重新做一次。
make it again.
我是说，我今天做的。
I mean, I made it today.
这是
It's I
我做的，我烧了
made it I boiled
水。
the water.
凉的。
Cold.
太离谱了。
That's crazy.
这水简直跟冰一样冷。
It's literally ice cold.
真奇怪。
That's weird.
好吧，我来弄——你确定吗？
Well, I'll make it Are you sure?
是的。
Yeah.
我按了两次按钮。
I I hit the button twice.
我按了……
I I bit
肯定没起作用。
It definitely didn't work.
油渍。
Grease.
它砰地响了一声，什么动静都有。
It banged and everything.
肯定是坏了。
Must must be broken.
我是说，这水冷得离谱。
I mean, it's crazy cold.
就跟冰水一样。
It's like cold water.
我重新启动一下。
I'll start it over.
哦，真奇怪。
Oh, how weird.
哦，这里我又找到一些信息，从那堆东西里又发现了几条干扰项。
Oh, here I got more info couple more distractions from that pile.
也许是外星人干的。
Maybe it's aliens.
他们在骗我们。
They're deceiving us.
他们搞乱了杰米的冷水。
They fuck with Jamie's cold water.
晚上7点06分，瓦伦蒂克联系了墨尔本空中交通管制员史蒂夫·罗比，报告说有一个不明飞行器在大约4500英尺的高度尾随他。
07:06PM, Valentique contacted the Melbourne air traffic controller, Steve Roby, reporting an unidentified aircraft trailing him at about four thousand five hundred feet.
在接下来的几分钟里，他描述了一个带有绿色灯光的、又长又亮的金属物体。
Over the next several minutes, he described a long shiny metallic object with a green light.
这个飞行器似乎在他上方盘旋，而他正高速移动，并且那个飞行器好像在玩某种游戏——原话是这么说的。
The craft appeared to be orbiting above him who was moving at high speed and playing some sort of game, in quotes.
他的发动机开始运转不稳，怠速抖动并发出咳嗽般的声音。
His engine became rough idling and coughing.
他最后的话是：那个奇怪的飞行器又在我头顶盘旋了。
His final words, that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again.
它就在那儿悬停着，而且那不是飞机。
It's hovering, and it's not an aircraft.
通讯在十七秒的金属刮擦声或按键声后结束，随后一片寂静。
Transmission ended with seventeen seconds of metallic scraping or keying sounds then silence.
所以，是的，飞行员和他们的家人也跟我讲过类似的事情，可能没那么戏剧化。
So, yeah, so this isn't so pilots and families of pilots have told me things similar to this, not as dramatic maybe.
你能再拿一个杯子吗？
Can you get another cup too?
我倒的是冷咖啡。
I poured cold coffee in this.
确实很像。
So similar.
所以我想，你知道的，情况看起来挺糟糕的。
And so I guess I just you know, it looks pretty grim.
那个人。
That guy.
那个。
That one.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且还有其他的，比如
And there are others like
电影《第三类接触》。
the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
我一直很好奇，那部电影有多少内容是基于之前的UFO遭遇事件，甚至像雅克·瓦莱这样的人物。
I've always wondered, like, how much of that movie was there's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters and and even figures like Jacques Vallee.
雅克·瓦莱在电影里扮演了一位法国科学家，这个角色就是以雅克·瓦莱为原型的。
Jacques Vallee plays an the French scientist in that movie is based on Jacques Vallee.
没错。
Yes.
而且电影里还有这样的场景，一些飞行员突然出现，比如来自第一次世界大战的，他们消失很久了，现在又回来了。
And so and there's scenes where these pilots show up that from, like, World War one, you know, and they've been gone forever, and now they're back.
而且他们一点时间都没变老。
And they haven't lost any time.
我一直好奇，这里面有多少是基于故事、报告、民间传说，或者政府知道的东西？
I've always wondered, like, how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore or whatever the government knew?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这确实基于一些故事和事情，比如雅克听到的那些。
I think that it's it's based on stories and things that they like Jacques has heard and so forth.
顺便说一句，雅克也觉得这具有欺骗性。
And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive too.
所以他的想法——他当然花了一辈子研究这个。
So his, you know, his idea he spent, of course, his whole life studying this.
他写了本书叫《欺骗的信使》。
And he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception.
是的。
Yeah.
我好像读过那本。
I think I read that one.
对。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，一旦你做了……
So, you know, once you do
我读过他好几本书。
I read a bunch of his books.
约翰·基尔。
John Keel.
约翰·基尔对这些东西的看法可一点都不正面。
John Keel doesn't have a good idea about these things at all.
他觉得它们挺邪恶的。
Thinks they're pretty nasty.
他不想让它们出现在《天蛾人预言》里，你懂的。
Doesn't want them in you know, the Mothman prophecy?
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他写了那本书，那部电影就是根据他的经历改编的。
So he wrote that, and that movie is based on his life.
他对这件事持否定态度。
And he's he's down on it.
在外星人问题上，他是个悲观主义者。
He's a doomer with respect to aliens.
怎么说？
How so?
他的观点是什么？
What is his perspective?
好。
Okay.
我现在就告诉你。
I'm gonna give it to you right now.
好的。
Alright.
行。
Okay.
你现在就告诉我吧。
Give it to me right now.
好的。
Alright.
他管这个叫……这让我想起天主教，因为他给这东西分了个类。
He calls this it it reminds me of Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it.
基本上就叫‘汤’，也就是超级光谱。
It's called the soup basically, the super spectrum.
明白吗？
Okay?
它现在就在这里，就像你说的。
And it's it's here with us now, just like you said.
它就在我们周围。
It's it's around us.
虽然你看不到我也看不到，但有些人能看见，还能跟它互动，甚至它会闯入他们的现实。
But you and I can't see it, But some people do see it and some people interact with it and have like it breaks into their reality.
他觉得这些人运气不好，因为像黑衣人这种怪事老发生在他们身上。
And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky because all the things that happen to them like men in black show up.
他认为，所有宗教的起源基本上都跟某个人接触过某种存在有关，就像超光谱里的那些超人类一样。
He thinks things like the the beginning of all religions is basically about someone who had an interface with a pair of being, like one of these parahumans in the super spectrum.
所以按照约翰·基尔的说法，我们周围其实存在着一种看不见的现实。
So it's kinda like an invisible reality all around us according to John Kiel.
约翰·基尔是雅克·瓦莱的朋友。
John Kiel was a pal of of Jacques Valais.
他已经去世了，但他的书真的非常精彩。
He's passed away, but his books are really amazing.
如果你想了解超光谱和这些现象，可以看看他拍的那部电影《天蛾人预言》。
And if you want to get an idea about the super spectrum and the phenomena, you should watch that movie of his called the Mothman Prophecies.
那部电影真的很好看。
It's it's really good.
所以超光谱——对。
And so the super spectrum Yeah.
比如，他到底觉得那是什么？
Like, what what does he think that is?
他认为那是一种存在于我们周围的空间。
So he he thinks that it's a it's a like a space all around us.
它一直就在那里。
It's been here forever.
它控制着我们。
It controls us.
它控制着人类，因为它会释放出一些东西，比如他认为UFO就是其中的一部分。
It controls humanity because it sends things like he thinks UFOs are part of it.
他认为圣母玛利亚显灵也是其中的一部分。
He thinks Virgin Mary apparitions are part of it.
他认为鬼魂也是其中的一部分。
He thinks ghosts are part of it.
所以任何超自然的东西都在那个超光谱里。
So any kind of woo thing is there in the super spectrum.
有时候有些人能看到超光谱里的东西，他认为这些人是被诅咒的。
And sometimes some people have the ability to see what's in the super spectrum and they're he thinks they're cursed.
他还认为天使也是超光谱的一部分。
Now he thinks angels are part of the super spectrum.
所以他根本不分里面的东西是好是坏。
So he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it or the bad things.
他说全都是坏的。
He said they're all bad.
就算有看起来是好的，实际上也是坏的。
If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad.
所以，他又开始，你知道，他有点像查尔斯·福特那种人。
So, again, he started you know, he was kinda like a a Charles Ford type guy.
于是他开始收集很多这类事件，研究它们，诸如此类。
So he started to get a lot of these, you know, these events and you study them and everything like that.
经过多年，他发展出一套理论，认为这些都是邪恶的东西，即使它们看起来是好的，而且它们是一切宗教的起源。
And over years, he developed a theory that these were nasty things and that they were like, even if they appeared good and that they they be they were at the beginning of all religions.
所有宗教都来自超光谱。
All religions come from the super spectrum.
当然，不是说像天主教那样的部分，但你知道，宗教往往有神学分类，会讨论超光谱这类东西。
Obviously, not that part about how it's like Catholicism, but, you know, religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the super spectrum.
所以雅克在他的书里讲的内容，听起来很像他的控制机制，也和约翰·基尔的想法非常相似。
So what Jacques talks about in his books, it sounds very similar to, you know, his control mechanism and is very similar to John Kiel's idea.
嗯，这听起来像是推测，但似乎我们是在一个非常有限的框架内运作。
Well, it seems like just speculating, but it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in.
我们作为人类运作——你想接这个话题吗，杰米？
We as human beings operate do you wanna take this, Jamie?
你需要这个吗？
Do you need this?
好的。
Okay.
我们在这个感官世界里运作，就是视觉、听觉、触觉、嗅觉这些。
That we operate in this world of the senses that we possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all that, you know, smell.
我们靠这些感官来理解周围的环境，但也仅限于此。
We we have these senses for understanding what's around us, but only those.
它们无法探测到全部的现实，无法探测到整个宇宙，从亚原子粒子到那些我们还没发现的鬼东西。
And it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet.
这些东西其实一直就在我们身边。
That's all around us all the time.
所以，如果存在其他领域或维度，而这些事物在某个空间里可以自由穿梭于不同维度，并且随时能和我们互动。
And so if there is the potential for other realms or other dimensions and these things exist in some sort of a space where they can interact and and traverse in between these dimensions and interact with with us at will whenever we can.
我们就只能停留在猜测阶段了。当人们经历像特拉维斯·沃尔顿那样非常新奇独特的体验时，我们只能想，好吧。
We're kind of left in this speculation space where when people have these very novel and unique experiences, like Travis Walton, and then we are supposed to go, okay.
那件事真的发生了吗？
Did that happen?
反正没发生在我身上。
It didn't happen to me.
但他说的到底是不是实话？
But is he telling the truth?
好吧。
Okay.
也许他说的是真的。
Maybe he is.
如果是真的，那我们就看看他在别的事情上有没有撒谎。
If he is, let's see if he lies about other things.
嗯，他看起来不像会撒谎的人。
Well, he doesn't seem to lie.
他这个人已经存在很久了。
He's been around a long time.
特拉维斯讲那个故事已经很久了，差不多有五十年了。
Travis has been around for a long time telling that story, like almost fifty years now.
对吧？
Right?
他的经历是什么时候的事？
Like, when was his experience?
我觉得是的。
I thought it yeah.
大概五十年吧。
Like, fifty Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你可能会觉得他应该还有别的谎话。
You would think he would have a few other fibs.
我同意。
I agree.
我同意。
I agree.
但他没有。
And he doesn't.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
如果是
If it was
谎言，但我不觉得是。
a lie, and I don't think it is.
但如果是的话，那这个谎可够大的，就只撒了一个。
But if it was, that's a big lie to have only one Yeah.
就一个1970年的荒唐谎言，不管是什么。
Only one crazy cockamamie lie from 1970, whatever it was.
你看，你现在做的，正是他们评估这类事件的标准之一。
See, you're what you're doing is you're this is part of their criteria for assessing these kinds of events.
对。
Mhmm.
明白吗？
Okay?
这叫做，你知道的，花时间。
It's called, you know, taking time.
没错。
Right.
所以随着时间的推移，当异常事件发生在，比如，基督教文化或其他类似环境中时。
So over time so when a when an anomalous event happens within, like, say, Christian culture or whatnot.
非常感谢你，杰米。
Thank you very much, Jamie.
谢谢。
Appreciate it.
冷倒是还好，但就是……太疯狂了。
The cold was alright, but it's like it's it's crazy.
真的挺冷的。
It's pretty cold.
那确实奇怪。
That is weird.
多谢。
Thank you.
对。
Yeah.
老兄，肯定有事儿。
Dude, something's going on.
你把手指放进去试试。
Put your finger in it.
你摸摸看有多冷。
Feel how cold it is.
冷得像冷水一样。
It's cold like cold water.
我明白，我知道，我知道发生了什么。
I understand what I know I know what happened.
哦，是吗？
Oh, do you?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
发生了什么？
Happened?
你按了启动按钮让它烧开了？
You just hit the start button to make it boil?
我没按启动按钮。
I didn't hit the start button.
哦。
Oh.
用户操作失误。
User error.
但它对用户响了。
But it beeped at the user.
确实响了。
It did.
它确实响了。
It that did.
哦。
Oh.
它响是因为没按
It beeped because it didn't
它当时正在关机。
it was turning off.
好的。
Okay.
这个好烫。
This is hot.
开始吧。
Here we go.
嗒嗒嗒。
Ta ta ta.
我的错。
My bad.
跟法压壶一样安静。
Quiet as the French press.
我们说到哪儿了？
Where were we?
那些分类
The categories
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你基本上就是在采取行动。
You were basically just making a move.
一次
Once a
一种策略。
A strategy.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
谢谢。
Thank you.
对。
Yeah.
比如说，看那个，我觉得那是我对鲍勃·拉扎尔的看法。
Like, looking at like, I mean, that's my perspective on Bob Lazar.
你知道，鲍勃·拉扎尔一直在讲完全一样的故事，从来没变过。
You know, Bob Lazar has been telling the exact same story forever.
我和鲍勃聊过很多次。
I've had many conversations with Bob.
我跟他一起吃过饭。
I've had dinner with him.
我也跟他一起出去玩过几次。
I've hung out with him a few times.
我跟他一起吃过好几次饭。
I've dinner with him several times.
在录音室里和他一起待过。
Hung out with him in the studio.
他给我们看了那部最新的纪录片，是在它发布之前，和跟他一起制作的路易吉一起看的。
He showed us that most recent documentary before it was released with Luigi, the guy who made it with him.
我不太清楚，但我认识很多满嘴胡话的人。
I don't you know, I I know a lot of people that are full of shit.
我是说，真的有很多人满嘴跑火车。
I I mean a lot of people that are full of shit.
有人就坐在我面前，聊着聊着，我就觉得，这人没说实话。
I've had people sit here in front of me and then somewhere in the conversation, I'm like, oh, this person's not being honest.
他们就是有目的性的。
This is this is some they've got an agenda.
要么在推销什么，要么假装懂一些东西，因为听起来很厉害，但其实根本不懂。
They're pushing some or they're pretending they know some things because it sounds good, but they don't really know some things.
我对这种人特别警惕。
I get real suspicious of people.
我对他倒没有怀疑。
I'm not suspicious of him.
这挺奇怪的。
It's weird.
你说对吧？
You know?
他显然非常聪明，在科学方面研究得很深，不管是元素、粒子还是别的什么，他都理解得非常透彻。
He's he's obviously incredibly intelligent and very well studied when it comes to science, when it comes to, you know, whatever it is, whether it's elements, particles, when, you know, he he he understands what he's talking about in a very deep way.
而且当他描述那些经历，讲那个飞行器以及在S4基地的遭遇时，听起来真的很像在说实话。
And when he's explaining these experiences, when he talks about this craft and his experiences at s four, he seems to be telling the truth.
而且后来我们才知道，当时根本没人知道S4这个地方，但他却知道。
And then since then, we've we know, first of all, that no one knew about s four back then, but he did.
他知道具体位置。
He knew where it was.
他清楚知道在哪儿，还知道有航班把人送到那里去。
He knew exactly where it was, and he knew about the flights that take people out there.
他对洛斯阿拉莫斯实验室了如指掌。
He he had a a total understanding of Los Alamos labs.
我是说，他确实去过那里。
I mean, he he went there.
他认识在那里工作的人。
He knew the people that worked there.
他知道怎么在楼里走动。
He knew how to get around the building.
当乔治·纳普带他去那里时，他对那个设施的一切都很了解，但他们却声称他从未在那里工作过。
When George Knapp took him there, he he knew everything about the facility, yet they claimed that he never worked there.
然后他们发现他在员工名单上。
And then they found him on the employee roster.
所以他确实在那里工作过。
So he did work there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们撒谎了，还想掩盖事实。
So they they lied, and they tried to cover up.
他们为什么要撒谎说他没在那里工作呢？
Why would they lie and say that he didn't work there?
对。
Yeah.
嗯，很可能是因为他参与了某些他们想保密的事情。
Well, probably because he was involved in some shit that they wanted to keep secret.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
鲍勃·拉扎的故事里有很多诡异的地方。
There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob Lazar story.
而且当你看到一些公开的影像资料，特别是2017年《纽约时报》那篇报道之后，那些视频里展示的飞行方式，跟他描述的他那艘飞船的操作方式一模一样。
And then when you see some of the footage that was released, particularly after the New York Times story of 2017, the footage that's released mirrors the way he describes his craft operating.
对。
Yeah.
那么，他在1989年到底猜对了什么？
And so how what did he guess correctly in 1989?
这些点都说得很好。
Those are all good points.
所以，对，我上次来节目时说过，泰勒——就是我在《美国宇宙》书里写的那个人——他告诉我，鲍勃·拉扎尔是真的。
So, yeah, I told you last time I was on here that Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book told me he that he was the real deal.
尽管有人，比如埃里克·戴维斯，他们告诉我，不，戴安娜。
Even though I had people who, you know, Eric Davis and, you know, telling me, no, Diana.
这家伙不是真的。
This guy's no.
不。
No.
我相信泰勒。
I believe Tyler.
所以你说的我都同意。
So everything that you say, I agree with.
对。
Yeah.
我也不太清楚。
I don't know.
我的意思是
I mean
只要故事足够精彩，比如鲍勃·拉泽的故事，总会有人跳出来。
You're always gonna have people when you have a fantastic story like Bob Lazar story.
这些人总想证明那家伙在胡说八道，说事情有蹊跷。
You're always gonna have people that wanna say that the guy's full of shit, that there's something wrong.
说他是在撒谎。
He's lying.
这不是真的。
It's not true.
是假的。
It's fake.
但我觉得，埃里克·戴维斯可能是个知情的人。
But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who might know.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Mhmm.
他可是研究这个的物理学家，还给国会做过简报，但结果呢？
So he's a physicist who studies this and even briefs congress on but no.
所以我也搞不清楚。
So I don't know.
我倾向于相信泰勒，他跟我说的事，现在他说的每件事基本都应验了，我相信他。
I I tend to when Tyler tells me things and now that he's everything he said kinda has come true, I believe him.
你知道吗？
You know?
我相信这是真的。
I believe that it's true.
但如果鲍勃·拉扎说的是实话，那太令人不安了——我们政府内部有一群人掌握着公众不知道的信息，他们是这些信息的守门人，而且出于某种原因，他们认定要么告诉公众不明智，要么告诉公众对他们没好处。
But if Bob Lazar is telling the truth, it's so disturbing the idea that there's a a group of humans that operate in our government that have information that the general public does not have and that they're the gatekeepers of this information, and they've determined for whatever reason that either it's not wise to tell people or it wouldn't benefit them to tell people.
不管是什么原因，我认为这反人类。
Like, whatever it is, I think it's a crime against humanity.
我觉得，如果你确凿知道除了我们之外还有别的东西存在，要么来访，要么和我们共存，要么从另一个维度来到这里，那你就有责任告诉大家。
I I think if you're a person that knows for a fact that there's something here other than us that either visits us or exists amongst us or travels here from another dimension, I think you have an obligation to tell people.
但如果不是这样呢？
But what if it's not that?
万一这其实是我们自己造出来的东西，不想让别人知道，而拉扎恰好发现了，所以才要保密呢？你想想，从那些试图保护美国人安全的人的角度来看。
What if it's actually something we've created and we don't want anybody to know about it and Lazar happened to find out and that's why we don't want you know, I mean, think about it from the perspective of people who are trying to keep Americans safe.
所以稍微反驳一下。
So just to push back a bit.
好的。
Okay.
请
Go
继续。
ahead.
你说，如果真是那样呢？
You know, what if that's it?
如果是那样，他们为什么要找一个人来告诉他们这东西怎么运作？
So if that's the case, why would they bring a guy in to tell them how does this work?
给我们演示一下怎么运作。
Show us how this works.
因为那是他的工作。
Because that was his job.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
他们把他叫来，说，告诉我们这东西怎么运作。
They brought him in and said, tell us how this works.
然后他就说，你们在说什么呢？
And, like and he was like, what are you talking about?
这是我们的东西。
This is ours.
上面还贴着美国国旗贴纸。
It has an American flag sticker on it.
难道你们不知道它怎么用吗？
Like, don't you know how it works?
你们干嘛问我它怎么运作？
Why are you asking me how it works?
这听起来有点离谱。
This seems kind of crazy.
如果你真有超级先进的技术，你不会这么干。
That's not what you do if you have super advanced technology.
正确的做法是请人来改进它，让它变得更好。
What you do is you bring in people to improve it and make it better.
而不是把人叫来问，这东西怎么用？
You don't bring in people and say, how does it work?
对。
Yeah.
好。
Okay.
等等。
Wait.
关于这个，我有几点想说的。
I have a couple of comments about that.
好。
Okay.
所以刚开始的时候，我意识到自己——其实我并没有那么了解情况，比我应该了解的要少得多。
So when I first started, I was I was aware that people I wasn't aware as much as I should be.
但我知道，像我这种职位的人，基本上就是做关于UFO信仰、以及日益增长的UFO信仰的学术研究，可能会有人来给我提供虚假信息。
But I was aware that people in my position, you know, who were basically just doing, like, academic work on the the UFO belief, the rising UFO belief, might have people come and give me disinformation.
百分之百。
A 100%.
我也有同样的情况。
And I I have the same situation.
当然，你肯定有。
Of course, you do.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们必须——你刚才提到了辨别力。
So we have to be that you're talking about discernment.
就是说，我们必须非常谨慎地判断谁——我们的谎言探测器得特别灵敏，对吧。
Like, we have to be super discerning about who's you know, our BS meter has to, like, be really Uh-huh.
是正常运作还是运作良好。
Well working or working well.
好的。
Okay.
所以，当时带我和加里去沙漠的那个人，对吧，去一个所谓的坠毁地点，然后雅克也去了那里。
So but the person who took me out to the desert, right, with Gary during that time to an alleged crash site, which, you know, Jacques then goes out there.
他基本上也是想让加里弄清楚这些碎片。
He basically also wants Gary to figure out this debris.
所以我在想，我们显然不知道手里是什么东西，如果它还是真的话。
And so I'm thinking we obviously don't know what we have here if he's at if it's still legit.
有可能，好吧。
It could okay.
那么，关于你刚才跟我说的拉扎尔的事，我有几点看法。
So here are my comments about what you just told me about Lazar.
要么他们是在设局，让像我或加里这样的人——我们试图逆向分析这个东西。
Either they're setting up this situation where they're gonna have someone like me and Gary who are like, they're trying to back engineer this.
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