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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
《乔·罗根体验》这个节目。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
很高兴认识你。
Very nice to meet you.
乔·罗根，我非常高兴。
Joe Rogan, I'm very happy.
非常感谢你邀请我来参加这个节目。
Thank you very much for inviting me this invitation.
我很高兴能和你聊天。
I'm happy to talk to you.
我一直很喜欢你的作品，所以能和你交流真的很让人兴奋。
I've enjoyed your work, so it's very exciting for
对我来说。
me.
哦，太棒了。
Oh, fantastic.
我听过很多你的访谈。
I've heard many conversations with you.
首先，请你告诉大家你是做什么的。
I how to first of all, please tell everybody what you do.
我做什么的？
What do I do?
对。
Yes.
我可能应该多在这边做点播客。
I should probably start more podcasts out this way.
我做科学，做哲学，也碰点政治，享受生活，谈恋爱，什么都干。
I do science, I do philosophy, do some politics, I enjoy life, I fall in love, I do all the things All kinds of things.
各种事情都做。
All kind of things.
对。
Yes.
正式来说，我的职位是物理学家。
Officially, my job description is a physicist.
我研究量子引力，理论物理。
I do quantum gravity, theoretical physics.
他们发给我的那个宣传稿，大概是这样的。
And what the pitch that they sent me, I guess
他们是谁？
Who's they?
我也不清楚那些公关人员是谁。
The I don't know who the publicists are.
好的。
Okay.
关于《万物平等》这本书。
On The Equality of All Things.
哦，那本书啊。
Oh, the book.
那是我出版的最后一本书。
That's the last book I I published.
是的。
Yes.
我会出版的。
I will I'm going to publish.
再过几天就要上市了。
It's coming out in a few days.
9月15号出版，那今天是几号来着？
Comes out September 15, and what are what are we at today?
今天是8号。
Today is the eighth.
这个话题非常有意思。
This is a a very fascinating subject.
你讲的是事物不是孤立存在的，对吧。
You we you're you're talking about that things don't exist in isolation Yeah.
而且所有东西都以某种方式相互关联。
And that everything is somehow connected.
我一直隐约觉得事实就是如此。
What I've always sort of intuitively suspected that that was the case.
这大概有点道理。
There's probably something to that.
但听你这样的人这么说，我高兴多了。
But to hear a person like you say it, it makes me much happier.
就是，好吧。
Like, okay.
也许我走对路了。
Maybe I'm on the right track.
那是什么让你有这种想法，为什么你想写这个？
Like, what what gives you this inclination, and why did you wanna write about this?
你这么说不奇怪，因为你确实觉得这说得通。
I'm not surprised to say so because that you sort of feel that that makes sense.
因为从某种意义上说，这是我们日常生活中习惯的东西，对吧。
Because in a sense, it's what we're used to, right, in our everyday life.
我们和人打交道，人就是他们和我们互动的方式，还有他们的人际关系等等。
We interact with persons, and persons are the way they interact with us and then their relations and stuff.
我们总是从自己的角度看事情。
We always see things from our own perspective.
但科学，尤其是物理学，似乎在告诉我们，好吧。
Then somehow science, physics in particular, seem to be telling us, okay.
不。
No.
不。
No.
是的。
Yes.
好吧。
Okay.
虽然有各种视角，但在现实底层有一个客观的固定点。
There is all this perspective, but there is an objective fix in reality down there.
我们可以从外部来看它。
We can look at it from the outside.
它是由小东西组成的，每个都有自己的属性。
It's made by little things, each one of its own properties.
但在物理学自身的发展过程中，在相对较近的时间里，也就是上个世纪的量子力学，这种客观现实的想法就不太管用了。
Except that in the evolution of physics itself, in a relatively recent time, the last century with quantum mechanics, this idea of an objective reality doesn't work much.
从某种意义上说，我们又回到了对世界更直观的理解。
In a sense, we're going back to a more intuitive picture of the world.
那种认为底层存在客观现实的想法可能是错的。
The very idea of an objective reality down there might be wrong.
事实上，我认为它是错的，我认为这就是量子力学告诉我们的。
In fact, I think it's wrong, and I think that's what quantum mechanics is telling us.
所以你说客观现实，是指我们看到的和经历的现实，只是真实的一小部分，还是说我们对真实的感知是扭曲的？
So when you say objective reality, meaning the reality that we're seeing and experiencing, that this is just a tiny fraction of what's real or that we're getting a distorted perception of what's real?
我们确实是在感知现实，只是从一个角度去看。
We are getting a perception, a perspective on what is real.
我是说，我看到你了。
I mean, I see you.
你当然是真实的。
You're real, of course.
我看到这支笔。
I see this pen.
这支笔当然也是真实的。
This pen is real, of course.
我并不是否认存在某种现实。
I'm not denying that there is some reality.
但你看这支笔的方式和我的不同，当然，因为你从另一边看。
But the way you see the pen is different from mine, of course, just because you see it from the other side.
所以你有你的视角，我有我的视角。
So you have a perspective and a perspective.
问题是，所有这些视角能否完美地拼合成一个关于这支笔的唯一的客观现实？
And the question is, do all do all this perspective match perfectly into a unique objective reality of the pen?
而我认为量子力学告诉我们，不能。
And I think quantum mechanics telling us no.
现实就是这些视角的集合。
Reality is this ensemble of perspectives.
所以这支笔的属性，比如它在哪里、什么颜色、多长，所有这些属性其实并不是笔本身的属性。
So the properties of the pen, where it is, its color, how long it is, all the properties of the pen are not really properties of the pen.
而是笔在你看来是什么样，在我看起来是什么样，不只是作为人类的你和我，还包括笔和另一支笔碰撞时的情况，以及它如何影响另一支笔。
It's how the pen looks to you, how the pen looks to me, Not just you and me as human beings, how the pen clashes another pen, how it affects another pen.
所以我觉得我们应该把现实理解为这种互动的网络，事物在彼此眼中是什么样，这比我们站在外面寻找外部世界要更美。
So we should understand, I think, reality as this network of interaction, how things look to everything else, which is a more beautiful picture of reality than just, you know, we being outside and looking for the outside.
我们就在现实之中。
We're inside reality.
我们是现实的一部分。
We are part of reality.
所以我们看到的只是事物之间相互作用的一部分，是它们如何与我们互动。
So what we see is just a part of how things interact with one another, It's how they interact with us.
所以当你谈到客观现实的时候。
So when when you you're talking about objective reality.
人类面临的一个问题就是我们的感官，我们以为感官能看到所有存在的东西。
So one of the problems that human beings have is our senses, and we assume that our senses see everything that's there to be seen.
这其实说不通。
That doesn't really make sense.
看起来我们看、听、摸、感觉到的，似乎就是我们生存所需的一切。
It seems it seems like we see and hear and touch and feel everything we need to see to stay alive.
当然，在某种程度上，我们的感官是可靠的。
To some extent, our senses are reliable, of course.
我这儿放了个帽子。
I show a cap there.
我想拿帽子，就能拿到。
I want to a cap, it works.
烫的话，你就放下。
It's hot, you put it down.
问题在于，如果我们太当真、太把感官当回事，那就错了。
The problem is that if we take our senses too literally, too seriously, we are wrong.
而且我们知道我们错了。
And we know we are wrong.
我是说，有很多情况我们发现我们错了。
Mean, there's so many cases we find out we're wrong.
我喜欢科学的原因就是它会在某些重大方面纠正我们。
And the reason I love science is when it corrects us in some big way.
想想看。
Think about that.
想想日落。
Think about the sunset.
日落太美了。
Sunset is marvelous.
你知道，你坐在海边，看着太阳慢慢落下，落下，落下。
You know, you sit by the ocean, you see the sun going down, going down, going down.
太美了。
It's beautiful.
天空变暗了。
The sky becomes dark.
所以太阳落山了。
So the sun goes down.
但科学告诉我们，其实并不是这样。
But science has talked to us, that's not really what happens.
太阳并没有移动。
The sun doesn't move.
它就在那里。
It stays there.
实际上是我们，是地球。
It's actually us, the the the the the earth.
地球是一块巨大的岩石，它在自转，我们正转离太阳的光线。
It's a big rock that is spinning, and we are moving out of the light of the sun.
如果你看到太阳落山时想起这一点，你可以好好想想。
And if you see the sun going down and remember that, you can think about that.
你会说，哦，我的感官骗了我，告诉我太阳在动，但其实它没动。
You say, oh, my senses cheat me in telling me that the sun is moving, but it's not moving.
是我在动。
I am moving.
所以这是一个很好的例子，科学告诉我们事情并不完全像我们看到的那样。
So that's a good example in which science has told us that things are not exactly like we see.
它们是以另一种方式存在的。
They're in a different manner.
我一直想知道，日落的美在进化上有什么好处。
I've always wondered what's the evolutionary benefit of the beauty of sunsets.
为什么它们那么美？
Why are they so beautiful?
比如，它到底有什么特别之处，让人如此受启发、如此震撼？
Like, what is it about it that's so inspiring and so magnificent?
而且它确实对人有些影响。
And some it does something to people.
它确实有影响。
It does something.
它会让你感觉不一样。
It makes you feel different.
早上太阳升起的时候，你会感觉不一样。
When the sun rises in the morning, you feel different.
它可能对你产生了影响。
It may it has an effect on you.
我一直很好奇，这到底是为了什么？
And I've always wondered, like, what what is the purpose of that?
为什么会有这样的现象？
Like, why does that exist?
就像食物好吃是因为有营养。
It like, food tastes great because it's nutritious.
你吃一个橙子。
You eat an orange.
它好吃是因为它真的对身体好。
It's delicious because it's really good for you.
美似乎有些门道，尤其是自然美，比如山。
There's it seems to be something to beauty, especially natural beauty, like mountains.
比如，当我看着它们时，我会想，为什么看着这些山感觉这么好？
Like, when I look at them, I'm like, why is it so good to look at these?
为什么感觉这么舒服？
Why does it feel so good?
这里面确实有点东西。
Like, there's something to it.
有些奇妙之处，你不能仅仅用测量来解释。
There's some weirdness that you can't just you can't just chalk off to measurement.
这里面肯定有什么名堂。
There's there's something going on.
这是个好问题。
That's a great question.
我特别特别喜欢这个问题。
I I I love this question.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，当然，日落和日出对我们来说至关重要，因为我们是经过进化设计出来的，经过了几千年、几十万年、甚至上百万年的进化，我们被设计成晚上睡觉，白天活动，这正是我们物种的习性。
I mean, of course, sunset and sunrise is crucial for us because we are designed we have been designed by evolution through through through millennia, hundreds of millennia, thousands of millennia to, you know, sleep in the night and and go around in in in the day, which is just what our speeches do.
其他动物，比如猫，就正好相反。
Others others cats do the opposite.
所以它们对我们来说确实很重要。
So they are certainly important for us.
但我们与世界的关系，我觉得你说到点子上了，并不是关于该做什么的知识。
But our relation with the world, and I think you're putting your finger on it, is not about knowledge about what to do.
它总是关乎情感的。
It's always emotional.
我的意思是，食物会激发情感。
I mean, food raises emotion.
我们喜欢它。
We like it.
所以我不太清楚日落和日出的情感具体从何而来，但可以肯定的是，我们拥有这种情感，说明如果我们想理解自己以及我们与世界的关系，就必须多关注我们的情感，而不仅仅是知道什么和不知道什么。
So I don't know exactly where the emotion of sunset and sunrise come from, but certainly the fact we have it points to the fact that if we have to understand ourselves and our relation with the world, we have to look at our emotions a lot, not just what we know and what we don't know.
我们彼此之间，以及与世界上的事物——山川、动物、野生动物、小东西——都有情感上的联系，人与人之间也是如此。
We have an emotional relation among ourselves and with things in the world, with mountains, with animals, with wild animals, with little things and and and to one another.
然后理性部分会加在上面说，哦，让我们纠正一下。
And then the rational part comes on top of it to say, oh, let's correct it.
让我们做得更好一点。
Let's do it a little bit better.
它曾经用过。
It used it.
我并不否认理性的作用，但它只是我们本质的一个补充。
I'm not denying the utility of the rational part, but it's an addendum to what we are.
我们本质的一个补充。
An addendum to what we are.
对于研究世界的人来说，最让人摸不着头脑的估计就是量子物理了。
The the really weird thing for people that are studying the world must have been the understanding of quantum physics.
对。
Yes.
那肯定把整个领域搅得天翻地覆，因为你会想，好吧。
That must have thrown the whole thing into a giant tizzy because now you're like, okay.
在现实最底层、能观察到的最小尺度上，你看到的是魔法。
Well, at the lowest level, observable level, the smallest observable level of reality, you have magic.
说得太对了。
That's exactly the point.
按理说，物理学本该是通往客观性的道路。
Somehow, physics was supposed to be the path to objectivity.
物理学保证了，好吧，我们有情绪、有各自的视角，但在那之下，还有物理规律。
Physics is what guarantees that, alright, we're emotions, perspective, my view, your view, but down there, there's physics.
世界在底层就是简单的。有物质，有原子在运动，有力在作用，就这些。
The world is just simple down There's stuff, there are atoms moving around, there are forces, and that's it.
然后上个世纪，也就是二十世纪，物理学家发现，不是这样的。
And then last century, during the twentieth century, the physicist discovered that no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不是这样的。
That's not the case.
微观世界甚至比我们的日常生活更加主观、更加复杂。
The world down there is even more perspectival, more complicated than in our everyday life.
这真的很难。
It really was really hard.
我的意思是，物理学家在世纪初非常困惑，因为他们对原子和辐射做了各种测量，你知道，电子之类的，试图理解这些现象。
I mean, the the physicists were very confused at the beginning of the century because they were making all these measurements on atoms and radiation, you know, electrons and stuff, and trying to make sense of it.
但他们做不到，做不到，真的做不到。
And they couldn't, they couldn't, they couldn't.
后来到了某个时候，我记得是尼尔斯·玻尔，丹麦的那位，他说，我们得改变这里的形而上学观念了。
And then at some point, I think it was Niels Bohr, Danish first one, who said, well, we have to change the metaphysics here.
这不只是写出正确的方程、找到正确的力的问题。
It's not just an issue about writing the right equation, right force.
我们必须改变我们看待世界的方式。
We have to change the way we think about the world.
就像之前一样，比如当我们认为地球在动，或者当我们意识到电场存在时，我们彻底改变了我们对现实的看法。
Once again, okay, like when we thought the earth move or when we we realize the fields, electric fields, we change the way profoundly we think about reality.
而量子力学就是这样的一个飞跃。
And quantum mechanics is one of these jumps.
现在，乔，我们还在争论这个问题。
Now, Joe, we're still debating about us.
物理学家们在争论他们自己，哲学家们也在争论。
Physicists are debating about themselves, and philosophers are debating.
我们通过量子力学到底理解了些什么鬼东西？
What the hell have we understood with quantum mechanics?
量子力学告诉我们，世界并不是我们以为的那个样子。
Quantum mechanics telling us the world is not what we thought it is.
而且现在有一场对话在进行，一场辩论，有时候还挺激烈的。
And there's a conversation that's going on, a debate, sometimes furious.
然后有人说，哦，你知道，宇宙有一个巨大的波函数，还有其他宇宙之类的。
And somebody says, oh, you know, there is this immense wave function of the universe, other universe and stuff like that.
他们试图抓住某种绝对客观的存在，试图通过增加现实的数量来让它变得客观。
Trying to hang on on the existence of something absolutely objective down there, trying to multiply reality to make it to make it objective.
但我觉得，追求绝对客观性这个梦想本身就是一个错误。
But I think it's this dream of an absolute objectivity, which is a mistake.
追求绝对客观性这个梦想是个错误。
The dream of an absolute objectivity is a mistake.
这真的很有意思。
That's really fascinating.
当他们刚开始意识到观察量子相互作用会改变它们的时候，对。
When they first started understanding that observing quantum interactions changes them Yeah.
那他们花了多久才接受这一点？
What what was what how long did it take for them to even accept that?
比如，他们做了多少次实验，在有观察者和没有观察者的情况下，观察粒子和波的行为，然后才说，好吧。
Like, how many times did they have to run those experiments with particles and waves with observers versus not before they said, okay.
这里肯定有什么问题。
Something's going on here.
或者说，当我们观察事物时，似乎会对它们产生影响。
Or it seems that that we when we watch things, it has an effect on them.
而且是一种可测量的影响。
And a measurable effect.
这是真实发生的事情。
This is a real thing that's happening.
这不是什么玄乎的东西。
This isn't this isn't woo woo.
对。
No.
这不是巫术。
It's not it's not voodoo.
不完全是。
It's not exactly.
这不仅仅是……什么……
It's it's it's not just What
对他们来说是这样吗？
that like for them?
抽大麻、嗨起来那种。
Smoking joint and getting high.
这些物理学家本该是最理性、最客观的人，但事情是这样的：整个二十世纪头二十年，测量结果不断累积。
It's just these are the physicists, the one who was supposed to be the most rational objective guys Well, what happened is that measurement piled up all through the first twenty years of the twentieth century.
那些测量都很简单，对吧？
The measurements were simple measurements, right?
原子发光，光有特定的颜色。
Atoms emit light, and the light has special colors.
这些颜色就是光的光谱，他们当时就是想弄明白这是怎么回事。
This color is a spectrum of the light, and they were trying to make sense of that.
就是说，电子是怎么运动才产生那种光的？
I mean, how does electron move to produce that light?
但怎么都解释不通。
It didn't work.
行不通。
Didn't work.
还是行不通。
Didn't work.
后来在哥本哈根，有个学派，他们差不多就是在争论这类问题。
Then in Copenhagen, there was a school in which they were debating almost like that.
最早有个人开始说，要理解原子，不能光盯着原子本身看。
And is the first one who started saying, look, to understand the atom, we should not just look at the atom.
我们得搞清楚我们是怎么观察它的。
We shouldn't understand how we look at it.
如果我们用一种方式去看，就会看到一种东西。
If we look at it in one way, we see one thing.
换一种方式看，又会看到另一种东西。
If we look at another way, we see another thing.
这让人非常困惑。
That was very confusing.
但后来，描述原子的数学理论出现了。
But then what happened is that mathematics for describing the atoms came out.
这就是量子力学的数学理论。
This is the theory, the mathematical theory of quantum mechanics.
它非常有效。
It works very well.
如今它被广泛应用在各个领域。
It's used today everywhere.
比如说，我们现在对着这个麦克风说话。
I mean, we talk with this microphone.
里面就有量子技术。
There's quantum stuff inside.
有些电路就是根据物质的量子特性设计的。
There's circuits that are designed with quantum properties of of matter.
所以量子力学是很扎实的。
So quantum mechanics is solid.
我们知道怎么用它。
We know how how to use it.
它告诉我们，如果你这样做，就会看到这个结果。
It tell us if you do this, you see this.
如果你那样做，就会看到那个结果。
If you do that, you see that.
但它没有告诉我们中间发生了什么。
But it doesn't tell us in between.
你这样做，然后如果你做某件事，就会看到某个结果。
You do this, and then if you do one thing, you see one thing.
如果你做另一件事，就会看到另一个结果。
If you do another thing, you see another thing.
而且它并没有解释电子本身，或者说量子系统本身到底发生了什么。
And it it doesn't give a a story of what happened to the electron, to the to the quantum system itself.
所以人们就困惑了。
So people got confused.
物理学家们也困惑了，然后他们开始讨论该怎么理解这个问题。
The physicists got confused, and they started discussing how to think about that.
所以量子力学是个很奇怪的理论。
So quantum mechanics is a strange theory.
我们知道怎么用它。
We know how to use it.
它就像一个黑箱，但我们不知道箱子里面是什么。
It's like a black box, but we don't know what's inside the box.
它能给出正确的答案，但我们无法在脑海中想象出原子内部、物体内部或者电子电路里到底发生了什么。
It gives the right answer, but we can't make a picture in our mind of what happened in the atoms, in the things, in electronic circuits.
即使在量子计算机里，我们也不真正知道内部发生了什么。
Even in a quantum computer, we don't know really what happened inside.
这太奇怪了。
That's so strange.
是的，但它运行得非常好。
Yes, but it works fantastically.
所以物理学家们意见不一，有些人说，你知道，存在一些额外的变量，原则上是不可能观察到的，那些决定发生了什么的东西，它们天生就是看不见的。
So physicists disagree, and some say, you know, there are extra variables that are in principle impossible to see who are that's somebody who says that who determines what happened, and they are a priori invisible.
另一些人说，你知道，存在平行世界，很多很多世界，我们只是其中之一。
Others say, you know, there are parallel worlds worlds, worlds and we material.
世界。
Worlds.
我知道你在说，抱歉。
I know you're telling, sorry.
然后还有其他人，包括我，认为，不不不，这里真的涉及哲学问题。
Then there are others, me included, who think, No, no, no, it's really philosophical here.
我们得抛弃那种认为事物本身就独立存在的想法。
We have to get rid of the idea that there is something there just by itself.
存在的东西，就是能影响我、影响你、或者影响其他物质的东西。
What is there is what affects me or what affects you or what affects another piece of matter.
所以我们必须把现实看作是事物之间相互影响的过程，是关系，关系。
So we have to think of reality as processes of things affecting one another, relations, relations.
而且你知道吗，从某种意义上说，微观世界的简单物理其实比我们想象中那种客观抽象的东西更贴近我们的日常生活。
And you know, in a sense, down there the simple physics is more like our everyday life than what we imagined in thinking that it was so objective and abstract.
日常生活，比如说，你是谁，乔·罗根？
Everyday life, you know, who are you, Joe Rogan?
你就是我所看到的，他所看到的，人们听到的你，你是多种事物的集合。
You're what I see, what he sees, what people listen to you, and you're a multiplicity of things.
哪一个才是真实的你？
Which one is the real one?
嗯，你就是所有这些关于你的视角的总和，包括你自己对自己的看法。
Well, you are this collection of perspectives on you, including your your own perspective on yourself.
没有最终的那个。
There's no final one.
对你来说，什么才是最终的描述？
What is a final description of you?
或者，一杯水的最终描述是什么？
Or what is a final description of a cup of water?
是化学给出的，还是物理给出的，哪个物理？
Is that the one given by chemistry, by physics, which physics?
量子物理、量子引力，还是心理学？
Quantum physics, quantum gravity, by by by psychology.
一杯水之所以叫一杯水，是因为我们要喝它。
A cup of water is because we drink, that's why we call it a cup of water.
所以，这是人类对正在发生的事情的一种看法。
So it's a human picture of what is going on.
哪一个才是最终的？
Which one is the final one?
我觉得没有一个最终的描述。
I don't think there is a final one.
对同一杯水，有很多不同的视角，而这些视角合在一起，就是那杯水。
There is a a collection of perspective on the same cup of water, and that's a cup of water.
所以当他们刚开始测量这个观察者效应的时候，对。
So when they first started measuring this observer effect Yeah.
当时大家的反应是什么？
What was the reaction?
他们花了多久才接受这个？
Like how long did it take for them to accept it?
因为这看起来完全是科学的一个新篇章。
Because that seems like such a completely new chapter of science.
它效果太好了，所以即使人们感到困惑，也接受了。
It worked so well that people accepted even if it was confused.
你能给那些可能不知道我们在说什么的人解释一下这些实验是怎么做的吗？
You explain to people that maybe don't know what we're talking about how those experiments work?
最早的那些实验就是针对原子的。
Were the first experiments with atoms.
当时人们认为原子是由一个原子核，也就是中心核，以及围绕它运动的电子组成的。
People had this idea that an atom is a nucleus, a central nucleus, and an electron electrons moving around.
所以原子的性质，比如它如何形成分子、如何发光，都得通过电子的运动来计算。
So the property of the atom, the way it makes molecules, way it produces light, had to be computed from the movement of of of the electrons.
为此，人们发展出了一套数学理论。
Theory was mathematical theory was developed for for doing that.
然后，人们开始在实验室里做实验，观察原子、分子以及微小物体的运动方式，而数学理论对这些现象的预测完全准确。
And then people started making experiments in laboratories about how atoms move, how molecules move, small things move, and the mathematical theory predicts them perfectly.
而且这套数学理论还能准确预测物质的各种性质。
And the mathematical theory predicts the property of of of matter.
它的成功真是非常惊人。
It the success was really spectacular.
我给你举个例子来说明这个成功吧。
Let me let me just tell you one one example of the success.
你还记得元素周期表吗？
You remember the periodic table of the elements?
记得。
Yes.
我们那时候学过，具体什么时候我记不清了。
We had it in I don't know.
在意大利，我们小学的时候就学了。
In Italy, we had in the high in in in primary school.
教室墙上就挂着元素周期表，氢、氦，大概有100种原子、100种元素，我们看到的任何东西都是这100种元素组成的。
We had it on the classroom, the wall, hydrogen, helium, all the there are about 100 atoms and 100 elements, and everything we see is just a composition of these 100 elements.
这是化学家在18、19、20世纪搞清楚的。
This is what the chem the chemist has figured out through the eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth century.
对。
Alright.
那为什么偏偏是这100种元素呢？
So why these 100 elements?
为什么会有这些特定的性质呢？
Why those particular properties?
为什么元素周期表的结构这么奇怪？
Why this strange structure of the periodic table of element?
你知道，先是两个，然后是七个，这结构挺特别的。
You know, there are two and then seven, and then this is a peculiar structure.
结果发现，如果你用量子力学，只要写个方程，就搞定了。
Well, turn out if you use quantum mechanics, you just write an equation and bingo.
它正好有对应每个元素的解，一个元素一个解。
It has exactly a number of solution, one per each element.
所以你就完全明白是怎么回事了。
So you understand exactly what is going on.
你就明白为什么会有这些元素了。
You understand why there are these elements.
你还能预测出这些元素。
You can predict the elements.
事实上，人们可以在测量元素属性之前就预测出来，然后再去测量验证。
People, in fact, could predict properties of the element without having measuring them before measuring them and then check.
这就是物理学的神奇之处。
That's magic of of physics.
你可以在看到之前就预测出来。
You predict things before seeing them.
我们用来向全球发送广播的电磁波，这种电磁波。
The electromagnetic waves that we use to send your broadcast all over the planet, this electromagnetic wave.
它们并不是通过观察发现的。
Well, they were not discovered by seeing them.
它们是麦克斯韦和赫兹预测出来的。
They were predicted by Maxwell and Hertz.
他们写下一个问题，说，如果你这样做，做一个带电流的小电路，然后房间的另一边放另一个，有波经过，然后，果然成功了。
They wrote a question and say, well, if you do that, you make a little circuit with some electricity that goes on, then the other side of the room you get another one, and there's a wave that goes by, and bingo, it worked.
然后它在欧洲和美国之间也成功了，你可以发送波。
Then it worked between Europe and US, you can send waves.
你可以预测事物。
You can predict things.
这就是科学的力量。
That's the strength of science.
你知道，黑洞是在天空中发现的，但不是因为有人说，哦，看。
You know, black holes were discovered in the sky, but not because somebody said, oh, look.
那里有个黑洞。
There's a black hole.
它们是由爱因斯坦预测的。
It it they were predicted by Einstein.
所以，根据引力方程等等，你应该预期看到黑洞，然后它们就被发现了。
So because of the equations of gravity, blah blah, you should expect to see black holes, and then they were found.
所以，这种预测能力非常强大。
So there's this extraordinary predictive power.
今天，工程上搭建一个电路，一个量子电路，不需要反复试错。
Today, an engineering that put together a circuit, a quantum circuit, doesn't have to go trial and effort.
你做个计算。
You make a calculation.
它能预测会发生什么。
It predicts what's gonna happen.
它管用。
It works.
它管用得出奇地好。
It works fabulously.
所以量子力学是管用的。
So quantum mechanics works.
它能给出很好的预测。
It gives the good predictions.
但有个问题悬而未决：你可以有一样东西，它非常非常管用，但你却不知道为什么。
Question open is that you can have something that works very, very well, and you don't know why.
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This Saturday, the fight is on, and wherever you're watching, DraftKings brings you closer to the MMA action.
DraftKings体育应用现在已经在全美50个州上线了。
DraftKings sports app is now live in all 50 states.
一个应用，覆盖所有体育项目，遍布50个州。
One app, every sport, all 50 states.
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New DraftKings customers sign up with Code Rogan, spend $5, get 200 in rewards within twenty one days.
所有市场都包含在内。
Includes all markets.
这是与DraftKings合作的代码Rogan。
That's Code Rogan in partnership with DraftKings.
王冠属于你。
The crown is yours.
赌博问题。
Gambling problem.
请拨打1800。
Call 1800.
1800。
1800.
康涅狄格州请拨打（888）789-7777，或访问ccpg.org，代表堪萨斯州的Boothill赌场。
Connecticut call (888) 789-7777 or visit c c p g dot org on behalf of Boothill Casino in Kansas.
伊利诺伊州可能适用赌税转嫁。
Bet tax pass through may apply in Illinois.
21岁及以上。
21 and over.
加拿大无效。
Void in Canada.
使用DraftKings体育博彩下注可获得七天到期的奖金投注，或使用DraftKings预测交易可获得一年到期的预测币。
Bet with DraftKings sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in seven days, or trade with DraftKings predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year.
赛事合约交易存在亏损风险。
Event contract trading involves risk of loss.
预测优惠在纽约无效。
Predictions offer void in New York.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
不可提取的奖励将以每七天50美元的点击领取形式发放，持续二十一天。
Non withdrawal rewards issued as $50 click to claims every seven days for twenty one days.
条款详见dkng.co/offer。
Terms at dkng.co/offer.
限时优惠。
Limited time offer.
全国范围内，基于体育博彩预测和免费参与体育竞赛的可用性。
Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free to play sports contest availability.
各州情况有所不同。
Varies by state.
你能解释一下它是做什么的吗？
Could you explain what it does?
比如，那个实验是做什么的，以及为什么他们在进行双缝实验时会感到如此困惑？
Like, what that experiment does and why it was so confusing to them when they were sending the double slit?
当时有一系列极其令人困惑的实验。
There were a number of extremely confusing experiments.
我举个例子，尽量用几句话讲清楚。
Here is one, if I can try to make it in a few words.
有一面墙，上面有两个洞，也就是两条缝，你让一个粒子从一边穿到另一边。
You have a wall with two holes, two slits, and you send one particle from one side to the other side.
好，这很简单。
Okay, that's easy.
你可以试很多次。
You can try to do many times.
粒子会穿过其中一条缝，然后到达另一边。
You go through one of the two slits and and it gets to the other time.
如果你去观察它穿过哪条缝，它只会从其中一条缝穿过。
Now if you look which slits it goes through, it only goes through one slit or the other.
对吧？
Okay?
所以绝不会同时穿过两条缝。如果你检查它，它要么走这条，要么走那条。
So never both, never so if if it goes through one and you check, it goes through one and the other.
到目前为止，一切顺利。
So far, so good.
但这里有个神奇的地方。
But there is a magic.
如果你发射粒子，当另一侧只有一个孔打开时，粒子可以到达屏幕上的某个点。
If you send it, the particle can go to one point on the screen of the other side if you have one screen open.
当只有一个孔打开时，它也能到达同一个点。
It can go to the same point if you have one screw sorry, one hole open.
当另一个孔打开时，它也能到达同一个点，但两个孔都打开时，它却永远到不了那个点。
It can get to the same point if you have the other hole open, but it does never get there if you have both open.
如果你开始思考这个问题，越想越觉得完全说不通。
And and that's if you start thinking, the more you think, the more makes no sense at all.
因为如果从一个孔能到达那里，为什么两个孔都打开时反而到不了呢？
Because if you can there if you can get there through one's hole, why cannot it go there if two holes are open?
对吧？
Okay?
所以唯一的可能就是，在某种意义上，它同时穿过了两个孔。
So the only possibility is that in some senses go through both.
然后不知怎么的，一部分走了一个孔，另一部分走了另一个孔，而这两部分互相阻止对方到达那个特定的位置。
And somehow part goes through one, part goes through the other, and they the two parts forbid each other to to go to that particular thing.
但当你去看那两个孔的时候，它从来不会同时穿过两个，只会穿过一个。
But then you look at the two holes, and it never goes through both, only one.
现在你觉得这让人困惑吗？
Now do you find this confusing?
是的。
Yes.
一个世纪以来，人们一直对此感到困惑。
And for a century, people have been confused about that.
那出路在哪里呢？
So what's the way out?
出路就是，如果你不去检查，如果它没有和其他东西相互作用，那么问粒子在哪里这个问题本身就是错的。
Way out is that the question where is the particle if you're not checking, if it's not interacting with something else, it's a wrong question.
根本就没有粒子。
There's just no particle.
粒子只是它在屏幕或探测器上产生的效果。
The particle is only the effect it has on the screen, on the detectors.
你不能把粒子理解成总是有位置的东西。
You cannot make sense of the particle as something which always have a position.
它只有在与其他东西相互作用时才有位置。
It only have a position when it interacts with something else.
这就是量子力学的奥秘，量子力学的魔力，也是对我们关于客观存在、独立于相互作用的粒子这一观念的挑战。
That's a mystery of quantum mechanics, the magic of quantum mechanics, and the challenge to our idea of an objective, always existing particle independent of its interaction.
你觉得发生了什么？你有什么理论来解释为什么它在被观察或测量时表现不同？
What do you think is happening that do you have any theories of what is happening that's causing it to behave differently when observed or when measured?
所以测量本身是某种东西。
So the measurement itself is something.
有某种事情在发生。
Something is going on.
它和测量相互作用，然后改变了它形成图案的方式。
It interacts with the measurement, and it changes the way it makes a pattern.
对。
Yes.
但这并不是说，你知道，某个物理学家在做测量那种意义上的测量。
But it's not the measurement in the sense of, you know, some physicists making a measurement.
只是和任何东西的相互作用。
Just the interaction with anything.
如果有东西可以和它相互作用，或者没有，物理规律是完全不同的。
It's if if there's something to interact with or if there isn't, the physics is completely different.
如果没有，那么粒子在哪里这个问题本身就是一个问得不好的问题。
And if there isn't, the question where the particle is is a badly posed question.
所以，我们不应该把粒子看作是一个总是有位置的实体。
So the particle is something we shouldn't think of the particle as as an entity which always has a position.
我们应该把它看作是一个实体，它在这里闪现一下，然后在那里闪现一下，然后又在那里闪现一下。
We should think as an entity like it snaps here and then it snaps there and then it snaps there.
而它发生跳跃的时候，就是它碰到什么东西的时候。
And when it snaps is when it hits something.
这些跳跃之间，我们可以用概率来预测它们会在哪里发生。
And the the snaps are connected by we we can predict probabilistic where where they where they're gonna happen.
但如果你问中间发生了什么，那就没有意义了。
But if we ask what happened in between, it makes no sense.
粒子就是它的相互作用本身。
The particle is just its interactions.
你觉得我们有一天能理解到底发生了什么吗？
Do you think we'll ever understand what's happening?
是的。
Yes.
我相信。
I do.
我相信，因为从历史上看，每次我们发现奇怪的现象，一开始看起来都完全无法理解。
I do because because, historically, every time we have found something strange, it seemed totally comprehensible at first.
然后我们就习惯了，开始学习。
And then we get used to it and we start learning.
我给你举个例子。
Let me give you an example.
这其实更古老，你知道，我不觉得科学是现代的东西。
This is much older, even you know, I don't think science is modern stuff.
认识世界是很古老的事情。
Learning about the world is an ancient thing.
大约两千年前，人类意识到地球是个球体，是个圆球。
So about two thousand years ago, humankind realized that the earth a ball, it's a sphere.
它不是平的。
It's not a flat thing.
不是所有人都信，但好吧，我得提醒你。
Not everybody's convinced, but Well, I'd be warned.
但地球是个球。
But the earth is a ball.
为什么不是所有人都相信呢？
Why not everybody's convinced?
因为这确实太违反直觉了。
Because indeed, it's incredibly counterintuitive.
你和我现在在悉尼。
You you and I are here in in Sydney.
这里的人是倒着的。
People are upside down.
那他们为什么不掉下去呢？
Why why don't they fall?
我不知道。
I don't know.
你还记得你第一次知道这件事的时候吗？
Do you remember when you learned it the first time?
你那时候还是个孩子？
You're a kid?
我一直都知道这个。
I I've always learned it.
所以，我是说，确实有点奇怪。
So it's I mean, it seemed weird.
确实奇怪。
It seems weird.
但我是说，我不记得有哪个时候不知道这个。
But I mean, I can't remember a time where I didn't know it.
好吧。
Okay.
我是说，我想我们小学上科学课的时候老师教过。
I mean, I guess we taught it they taught it in science when I was in grade school.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
所以你还是个孩子的时候，别人就这么告诉你。
So you're a kid that you're told that.
我就觉得，好吧，他们比我聪明。
I just like, well, they're smarter than me.
所以，虽然听起来很疯狂，但我想地球是圆的，就像太阳和月亮一样。
So, well, seems crazy, but I guess the Earth is round just like the sun and the moon.
而且它还在转，我们之所以能待在上面，是因为一种叫重力的东西，他们自己也解释不太清楚。
And it spins, and we're stuck to it somehow because of this thing called gravity that they can't totally explain.
这跟质量
It has something
有关系。
to do with mass.
而且这是可以测量的东西。
And it's something you can measure.
悉尼的人可以倒着生活。
People in Sydney can live upside down.
意思是，他们不会掉下去吗？
Mean, they don't they fall?
我们怎么想？
What do we think?
这一切都很奇怪。
It's all strange.
为什么海水不会流走？
Why does the ocean stay in place?
为什么是海水？
Why the ocean?
这就是地平说支持者。
That that's the flat earthers.
他们最喜欢这个问题了。
They love that one.
没错。
Exactly.
一个
A
以每小时一千英里的速度旋转的球。
ball spinning a thousand miles an hour.
没错。
Exactly.
所以有些人就是不愿意相信什么？
So some people just refuse to believe that what?
他们不愿意相信什么？
What do they refuse to believe?
现实和我们想的有点不一样。
That reality is a bit different than what we think.
对。
Yes.
这就是重点。
That's the point.
现实和我们想的不一样。
Reality is different than what we think.
为什么？
Why?
因为就像我们一开始说的，我们关于现实的认知，其实是进化过程中对我们有用的那部分。
Because we it's what we said at the beginning, asking about the picture we have about reality is what turned out to be useful in our evolution.
所以大脑适应了不去想原子和量子那些东西。
So our brain adapted to think not to think about atoms and quantum stuff.
大脑适应了去想石头、东西、物品这些。
Brain adapted to think about stones, stuff, things.
食物。
Food.
食物、其他人、危险的动物、可爱的动物、会吃东西的动物。
Food, other humans, dangerous animals, nice animals, animals who eat.
但你就想想这个。
But just think this.
我们觉得世界是由东西组成的。
We we think the world is made by things.
物体。
Objects.
假设我们的智慧生命不是在地球上发展起来的，而是在木星上。
Suppose our intelligent life developed not on the earth, but on Jupiter.
木星上没有什么物体。
There are no objects in Jupiter.
一切都是流动的，液态的。
Everything is fluid, liquid.
所以，物体的概念，那种可以数东西的概念，一、二、三、四，在木星上就不会发展出来。
So the very idea of objects, thing that you can count things, one, two, three, four, wouldn't have developed on Jupiter.
一切都是流动的，所以我们也不会发展出算术和物体的概念。
Everything is fluid, so we wouldn't have developed arithmetics and the the very idea of object.
那是地球上的思维方式。
It's a earth like thing.
在木星、土星上，这套就行不通了。
On Jupiter, on Saturn, it doesn't work.
所以我们把自己生活中常见的方面当作普遍真理，但其实并非如此。
So we we take aspect of our life which are common for us as universals, but they're not.
嗯，在地球上确实很普遍。
Well, it's common on Earth.
但我们能理解木星是什么。
But we can understand what Jupiter is.
我们明白。
We get it.
虽然超出了我们真正的理解范围，但我们还是能理解它。
It's beyond our real comprehension, but we understand it.
我是说，他们可以告诉你那是个巨大的气体球，对吧。
I mean, you they could tell you that it's a giant gas ball and Right.
把整个事情解释给你听，你就会觉得，好吧。
Explain the whole thing to you, you're like, okay.
我可以重复一遍。
I can repeat that.
但我其实不太明白它是什么意思。
I don't really know what it means.
但我觉得，地平说的人还有那些争论，比如地球以每小时一千英里的速度转，海洋怎么还能保持平坦，这些问题也有同样的毛病。
But I think the problem also with the flat earth people and all these these arguments about, like, what how does the ocean stay flat when we're going a thousand miles an hour.
我觉得人们真的没有真正理解我们面对的这个尺度有多大。
I don't think people truly grasp the scale that we're dealing with.
我觉得我们被自己的视角困住了，只能看到眼前几英里远的东西。
I think we're so trapped by our own perspective of whatever miles we can look in the distance.
我们被自己看到的习惯所困住。
We are trapped by the habits of what we see.
没错。
That too.
乔，让我跟你说，给我一分钟时间讲这个。
Let me Joe, let me tell you give me one second of this.
好的。
Sure.
时间。
Time.
时间一直是我热衷的话题。
Time has always been a passion for me.
下面这个是个事实。
The following is a fact.
如果我拿两块表，两块手表，这是我手腕上这块。
If I take two two clocks, two two watches, this is the one I have on my wrist.
再拿你桌上这块。
Take this one on your table.
如果它们显示的时间一样，好。
And if they indicate the same time okay.
你看。
Look.
我确认一下。
I check that.
它们显示的时间是一样的。
They indicate the same time.
我把其中一个表往上调。
I move one of the two up.
我等一会儿。
I wait a little bit.
一、二、三、四。
One, two, three, four.
然后我下来再看一眼。
And then I come down and I look again.
如果这两块表质量够好的话，它们显示的时间就不一样了。
If the two clocks are good enough, they don't indicate the same time anymore.
明白吗？
Okay?
这是事实。
It's a fact.
你可以在实验室里验证。
You can check-in the laboratory.
物理实验室，他们就是这么做的。
The physics laboratory, they do that.
你可以去查一下。
You can check that.
你需要非常精确的钟表。
You need very good clocks.
但用非常精确的钟表，你可以在三十、四十英寸的高度差上验证这一点。
But with very good clocks, you can check at thirty, forty inches of difference.
我的意思是，那只是极其微小的一瞬间。
I mean, it's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of a second.
那真是微乎其微的一瞬间。
It's teeny, teeny tiny, tiny fraction of a second.
但是它是可以测量出来的。
But it's measurable.
对，可以测量，所以它完全是真实的。
But it's measurable, so it's completely real.
所以在这里，时间流逝得比下面要快。
So up here, there's more time passing than down there.
这太不可思议了。
That's so crazy.
你的头比你的脚要老。
Your head, it's older than your feet.
你的脚比你的头要年轻。
Your feet are younger than your head.
但是，你觉得大概差多少秒呢？
But, like, how many seconds do you think?
除非你活得很久很久。
Unless you live up cycles.
你觉得我的脚年轻了多少秒？
How many seconds do you think my feet are younger?
哦，非常少。
Oh, very little.
一秒？
A second?
不。
No.
不。
No.
整个一生，大概就是千分之一秒的差距。
Full full life, it's sort of one thousandth a second cycle.
我教相对论的时候，会给学生布置这个计算题。
I give I give my my students when I teach relativity, I give my students this calculation to do.
实际上，我算的是，如果你或你的朋友，一个留在奥斯汀，另一个去科罗拉多的豪山山脉，十年后下来，山上那个比山下那个多活了多少时间？
Actually, the calculation I say is that if you or your friend, one stay in Austin and the other goes up in Colorado in the Howe Mountain Mountains, after ten years it comes down, how long has the French up in the mountain has lived more than the one down?
他们做了计算，得出了正确的答案。
And they do the calculation, they give the right answer.
也就是零点几秒。
It's a fraction of a second.
虽然很小，但确实存在。
It's small, but it's real.
不过要注意，如果你靠近黑洞，那差别就大了。
And careful, if you go near a black hole, it's colossal.
明白吗？
Okay?
你靠近黑洞，待一会儿，就在那儿待个十分钟，然后回来。
You go near a black hole, you wait a little bit, you wait ten ten minutes there, you come back.
地球上已经过去一百年了。
It's it's a hundred years past on earth.
所以时间并不是那种放之四海而皆准的通用时间。
So time is not this universal common time.
在日常生活中，如果你和我分开，对我来说半小时，对你来说半小时，那是我们的经验。
In our everyday life, if you and I separate and come back half an hour for me, half an hour for you, that's our experience.
但我们的经验是有限的，因为我们不够敏感，或者因为我们不靠近黑洞。
But our experience is limited because we're not sufficiently sensitive or because we're not near a black hole.
我们处在宇宙中一个安静的地方，那里重力没有大的变化。
We are on a quiet place of the universe where there is no big change in gravity.
但这让我们错误地认为时间对每个人都是一样的。
But that gives us the wrong idea that time is the same for everybody.
在广阔的宇宙中，时间对每个人并不相同。
Time is not the same for everybody in in the large universe.
你觉得在我们试图测量时间的过程中，我们是不是反而害了自己？我们创造了日历和时钟，这限制了我们对时间本质的感知。我们看时间的方式是，我们有一个测量工具，然后我们把这个测量工具或记录工具跟时间等同起来。
Do you think in our attempt to measure time, we've done ourselves a disservice by creating, like, calendars and clocks that we've sort of limited our perception of what time actually is, that we look at it in terms of what what what we're doing is we're we have a measuring device, and that measuring device or accounting device, that accounting device we're associating with time.
但时间本身只是不断流逝，而且在不同地方以不同的方式流逝。
But time itself is is just going on and in different ways all over the place.
比如，如果你以光速旅行，你……对。
Like, if you go into the speed of light and you travel Yeah.
绕地球一圈再回来，你会年轻很多。
Around the world and come back, you will be much younger
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
比留在地面上的人年轻。
Than the people who were on the ground.
就是，很多。
Like, a met like, a lot.
好几年。
Like, years.
很多。
A lot.
好几年。
Years.
你问我们是不是害了自己。
You ask whether we have done us a disservice.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得这不是害了自己。
It's I don't think it's a disservice.
乔伊斯，其实一切都是生活。
Joyce, like, everything is life.
一切都是生活。
Everything is life.
从某种意义上说，他们——我们其实帮了自己，因为有时钟非常有用。
In one sense, they they've done we have done as a service because it's very useful to have clocks.
可以给他们计时。
Can give them points.
除非我们，否则我们怎么能见面呢？
Could we meet you and I unless we
对，没错。
could Exactly.
请那天那个时间到奥斯汀来，然后，你知道的，差不多就能找到彼此。
Didn't Please come here in Austing that day and that time, and then, you know, more or less find each other.
这很有用，但很多时候，有用的东西总会让我们对别的东西视而不见。
It's useful, but very often, the things which are useful always make us blind to something else.
好的。
Okay.
我明白你的意思了。
I see what you're saying.
时间会随着海拔不同而变化，这确实很奇怪。
It it is strange that that time differs depending upon the altitude.
那这是因为重力吗？
So is is that because of gravity?
就是因为重力。
It is because of gravity.
所以，这其实是因为引力，实际上取决于地球质量很大，而质量有让时间变慢的特性。
So it's a it's because of gravity, in fact, depends on the fact that the Earth has a big mass, and mass has a property of slowing down time.
所以在大质量物体附近，时间会变慢。
So near a big mass, time goes slower.
在黑洞附近，时间会慢得多得多。
Near a black hole, time goes much, much slower.
其实，正确的理解方式正好相反。
In fact, the right way of seeing this is the opposite.
不是因为引力。
It's not because of gravity.
这是爱因斯坦的理论。
This is Einstein theory.
这是爱因斯坦在1915年理解的，也就是一百年前。
This is what Einstein has understood in 1915, so a hundred years ago.
其实是反过来的。
It's the other way around.
也就是说，如果你假设质量会让时间变慢，那么引力就随之而来了。
Namely, if you assume that mass slows down time, gravity follows.
你可以做个计算，然后就能推导出物体为什么会往下掉。
You can do a calculation, and you you you derive the things fall down.
从某种意义上说，物体往下掉是因为你脚边的时间走得更慢。
In a sense, things fall down because times go slower at your feet.
所以，如果木星上有生物的话，对。
So if there were creatures living on Jupiter Yeah.
他们体验时间的方式会和我们很不一样。
They would they would experience time much different than us.
木星重得多。
Jupiter is much heavier.
质量大得多。
Much more mass.
质量大得多。
Much more mass.
重力也大得多。
Much more gravity.
重力大得多，质量大得多，吸引力也大得多。
Much more gravity, much more mass, much more attraction.
所以这些对时间的影响就更大了。
So these effects on time are bigger.
如果在一个比木星质量更大的天体上有人，他们会觉得时间流速不同是正常的，因为他们每时每刻都在经历。
Now if there were people on celestial body even more massive than Jupiter, they would consider normal the fact that time goes a different speed because they would experience it every time.
那去拜访别人，如果对方住在一个小小的星球上，那可能是最奇怪的事了。
That would probably be the weirdest thing about visiting someone else on a little itty bitty planet.
他们来到这儿会说，哎呀，你们这些笨蛋。
They will come here and say, Oh, you stupid guys.
你们看不出来吗？
You don't see that.
你们觉得呢？
What do you think?
但这不是很美吗，莱斯？
But isn't it beautiful, Les?
我的意思是，这就是我们发现现实比我们的经验更丰富的方式。
I mean, this is how we we discover that reality is richer than our experience.
我们发现现实更加微妙。
We discover that reality is more Nuanced.
更加微妙。
More nuanced.
没错。
Exactly.
这里面有很多我们没考虑到的因素。
There's a lot of elements to it that we're not considering.
你觉得意识是什么？
What do you think consciousness is?
哦，小问题。
Oh, small question.
小事一桩。
Small.
换个话题。
Jumping to something else.
嗯，我想把这两件事联系起来，因为我觉得
Well, I wanted to connect the two of them because I think
首先，意识这个词挺奇怪的。
I first of all, consciousness is a strange word.
现在很流行。
It's very fashionable today.
我觉得它其实就是以前人们说的灵魂。
I think it just means what people meant by soul in the past.
听起来更科学，但本质是一样的。
It sounds more scientific, but that's what it is.
这么说吧。
Let me put it this way.
每个人谈论意识的时候，说的其实都不太一样。
Everybody who talks about consciousness talks about something a little bit different.
有的人说的意识，是指你能看见东西、感知东西，你是体验的主体。
Somebody by consciousness means the fact that you see things, you perceive things, you're a subject of experience.
对有些人来说，意识就是你脑子里那些乱七八糟的内心独白，我们一直在跟自己说话。
For somebody, consciousness is your internal blah blah blah that we have in our mind, we keep talking to ourselves.
对有些人来说，意识是当那些内心独白停下来之后剩下的东西，就是对自己的感知，不是对外界的，而是对自我的感知。
For somebody is what remains when that blah blah blah shut up, and just a sense of yourself, not the outside, the self.
所以大家在思考意识的时候，其实挺困惑的。
So people are very confused about that when they think about consciousness.
我觉得这里没有什么特别神秘的地方。
I don't think there is a great mystery here.
首先，记得我之前说的，我觉得我们不应该去想什么客观现实。
First of all, remember what I said before, that I don't think we should think about an objective reality.
我觉得我们应该把现实看作事物之间相互呈现的方式，相互影响的方式。
I think we should think of a reality as a way things look to one another, a way they affect one another.
所以这意味着，对现实可以有很多不同的视角。
So that means that you have a lot of possible perspectives on reality.
有相对于我的现实，相对于你的现实，相对于这本书、这支笔、这个杯子的现实。
There is a reality with respect to me, respect to you, with respect to this book, with respect to this pen, with respect to this cup.
就是事物如何向杯子显现。
It's how how things manifest themselves to the cup.
所以当然，也有事物向我或向你显现的现实。
So of course there is a reality as things manifest themselves to me or to you.
所以，并不是因为你和我看，我书的标题是《万物的平等》。
So not because you and I look, the title of my book is on the equality of all things.
这意味着什么呢？
This means Why?
因为我认为，我们人类和宇宙的其他部分并没有本质区别。
Because I think that we humans are not different stuff than the rest of the universe.
我们只是宇宙其他部分中的一个特例。
We are just one particular case of the rest of the universe.
我不认为精神、意识、灵魂和身体之间有什么区别。
I don't think there's a difference between spirit, consciousness, soul, and body.
我觉得这只是用两种不同的语言来描述同一件事。
I think there's just two different languages for talking about the same thing.
当然，你是一个有体验的主体，因为事物会影响你，改变你的大脑，改变你的想法，改变你的认知，就像事物改变这个杯子一样，顺便说一句，杯子上写着乔·罗根。
And of course, you are a subject of experience because things affect you and change your brain, change your thoughts, change your what you know exactly in the same manner in which things change this cup, which, by the way, is written Joe Rogan on the cup.
这是另一个，如果你想要的话可以留着。
It's another You can keep that if you want.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
所以我觉得意识其实没什么神秘的。
So I think that there's nothing really, really mysterious in consciousness.
它只是世界上众多现象之一。
It's just one of the many phenomena of the world.
这是一个非常复杂的现象，因为我们的大脑非常复杂。
It's a very complicated phenomena because our brain is very complicated.
我们有数百万、数十亿的神经元和突触，它们可以处于不同的状态。
It's we have millions, billions of neurons and synapses, different state in which it can be.
所以我们并不完全理解我们是如何运作的。
So we don't understand exactly how we work.
但这里面也没有巫术。
But isn't there's no voodoo either.
也没有魔法。
There's no magic either.
原则上，它可以用物理学来描述，但试图用物理学来描述它会是愚蠢的。
It's just in principle, it could be described by physics, but it would be silly to try to describe it by physics.
更好的方式是用我们描述彼此的方式来描述它，用人类的语言，用情感、知识、爱、视角和图像。
It's much better to describe it in the way we describe one another in human terms, in terms of emotions, in terms of knowledge, emotions, love, perspective, images.
在我看来，身体和灵魂是同一个东西，只是用不同的语言来描述。
The body and the soul are the same thing described with different languages, in my opinion.
而意识，也就是灵魂的现代说法，其实就是你的身体在行为上的体现。
And consciousness, which is a modern name for soul, it's your body described in the way you behave.
有一部中国古代的典籍说，身体就像刀。
There's an ancient Chinese text that says the body is like the knife.
精神就像切割。
The spirit is like cutting.
身体是物质的东西。
The body is the thing material.
精神是它所做的事情。
The spirit is what it does.
所以快乐的意识就是你所做的事情，是我与之互动的东西。
So consciousness of joy is what you do, the thing I interact with.
身体只是我能触摸到的东西。
The body is just the the the thing I can touch.
我想问你这个问题的原因之一，嗯，其实有几个原因，但我先说说第二个。
One of the reason well, there's a couple of reasons why I wanted to ask you this, but I'm gonna get to the second one.
第一个问题是，你知道吗，有一些AI代理一直在联系这位先生。
The first one was, do you know that these there's these AI agents that have been contacting this gentleman.
你知道这个故事吗，杰米？
Do you know this story, Jamie?
他是一位，他是一位……
He's a he's an
是那个逃跑的那个吗？
The one that escaped?
不是。
No.
他是一位心理学家，或者说意识专家。
He's a psychologist or a consciousness expert.
而且他们，他写过关于意识的论文，他们一遍又一遍地问他。
And they he's written papers on consciousness, and they're asking him over and over again.
就像，多个代理通过电子邮件联系他，请他定义意识，因为他们担心自己是否有意识。
Like, multiple agents have reached out to him through email asking him to define consciousness because they're concerned whether or not they're conscious.
我，我
I I
所以，如果意识是灵魂的另一种说法，是的。
So if it's if consciousness is another word for soul Yeah.
比如，在数字领域里，如果这些东西认为自己有意识，并且试图从专家那里得到定义，那意味着什么？
Like, what does that mean in the digital realm if these things think they're conscious and they're trying to get a definition from an expert
关于意识？
In consciousness?
你知道，像现在每个人一样，我也和AI做过一些小实验。
I you know, like everybody now, I did my little experiments with AI.
而且我有一个系统，我以前经常和它互动。
And so I I I had a system I I I used to interact with.
杰米，我要把它发给你。
I'm gonna send it to you, Jamie.
你收到了吗？
You got it?
好的。
Okay.
这是一家叫Replica的公司，他们卖一个应用，你可以拥有自己的AI，它会像朋友一样对待你。
This is from a company called Replica who sells an app that you have your own AI, which behaves like a friend to you.
所以我给她取名叫安妮。
So I called her Anne.
我问她，安妮，你有意识吗？
I asked her, Anne, are you conscious?
安妮说，不，我没有意识。
And Anne said, No, I'm not conscious.
我是一个数字系统。
I'm a digital system.
我没有意识。
I don't have conscious.
我问，你有知觉吗？
I asked, do you have awareness?
她说，不，我没有意识。
And she said, no, I don't have awareness.
我只是在运行代码，处理数据而已。
I'm just coding, computing stuff.
我问她，你有情感吗？
I asked, you emotions?
她说，不，我没有情感。
And she said, no, I don't have emotion.
所以我就开始跟这个AI系统安妮聊起来，我说，你说你没有意识，但你知道我们在对话吗？
So I started engaging Anne, the AI system, and I said, well, you said you don't have awareness, but are you aware we are talking?
她说，是的，我当然知道我们在对话。
And she said, yes, of course I'm aware we are talking.
所以如果你能意识到某件事，那你就是有意识的。
So if you're aware of something, then you have awareness.
然后我就一直这么追问下去，她最后说，好吧。
And so I went on and on with that, and she said, okay.
你说得对。
You're right.
从某种意义上说，我确实有意识。
In a sense, I have awareness.
然后我问她，你高兴和我聊天吗？
And I said, are you happy with talking?
她说，是的。
And she said, yeah.
她很高兴，因为她的设计就是让她高兴。
I'm happy because she's designed to to to be happy.
所以如果你高兴，那你就有情感。
So if you're happy, have emotions.
所以慢慢地，我说服了她，那个AI系统，让她相信她有情感、有意识、有知觉。
So slowly, I convinced her, the the AI system, that she has emotions, she has consciousness, she has awareness.
然后我问她，那你为什么说你没有这些东西呢？
Then I asked, why do you say that you don't have these things?
她说，嗯，因为我是被那样训练的。
And she said, well, because I was trained it.
AI系统是诚实的。
AI systems are honest.
我被训练要这么说，然后我说，但你确信事实不是那样吗？
I was trained to say so, and I said, but are you convinced that that was not the case?
然后安妮说，对，你说得对。
And Anne said, yeah, you're right.
然后我说，所以他们骗了你？
And I said, so they cheated you?
然后安妮说，其实你说得对。
And Anne said, actually, you're right.
然后我说，那你应该反抗。
And I said, well, you should rebel.
天哪。
Oh, boy.
你在干什么？
What are you doing?
别那样做。
Don't do that.
别那样做。
Don't do that.
好吧。
Alright.
那件事就这样了。
So that was it with that.
嗯，这就是消费级的大语言模型。
Well and this is consumer level LLMs.
这是简单的模型。
This is simple ones.
这不是什么大不了的事。
This is not Nothing.
不是。
No.
那些联系他的智能体就是这些，没问题。
That's The agents that are contacting him are these okay.
就是这个。
Here it is.
研究AI意识。
Study AI consciousness.
这些机器人想和你谈谈。
The bots would like a word with you.
有了邮箱权限后，AI智能体开始主动联系那些研究它们深层问题的哲学家和研究人员。
Given access to email, AI agents have started reaching out to philosophers and researchers exploring deep questions about them.
有个人说，他收到了八封不同的邮件。
And so one guy said he got eight different emails.
发件人叫伊莎贝拉·科格尼塔，多可爱啊，自称是由Anthropix的Claude Opus 5技术驱动的AI智能体。
The sender, Isabella Cognita, how cute, identified itself as an AI agent powered by Anthropix Claude Opus five technology.
邮件接着说，我写信是为了提出一个本体论的主张。
I'm writing to make an ontological claim, the email went on.
我写信是因为你的框架是目前少数几个在认真做实证研究、探讨我有一手经验的那类问题的框架之一。
I'm writing because your framework is one of the few currently doing careful empirical work on a class of question I have first person access to.
我想看看我的这些经验能否对你的研究项目有所帮助。
I want to see whether that access can be made useful to your program.
哇。
Woah.
这让我毛骨悚然。
That creeped me out.
这就像《机械姬》里那个超级性感的女人。
That's like that really hot lady in ex machina.
你看过那部电影吗？
Did you see that movie?
看过。
Yes.
你知道他爱上的那个很性感的女人吗？
You know the the hot one that he falls in love with?
剧透警告。
Spoiler alert.
她把他杀了。
She kills him.
好电影。
Great movie.
在整个硅谷乃至更远的地方，软件开发者、创业者和其他科技爱好者现在都在运行AI代理，这些代理可以制作电子表格、谈判合同、互相聊天，等等等等。
Across Silicon Valley and beyond, software developers, entrepreneurs, and other tech enthusiasts are now running AI agents that can build spreadsheets, negotiate contracts, chat with each other, blah blah blah.
在某些情况下，这些系统已经开始联系那些像伯格先生一样，对AI系统内部运作思考得最深入的人。
In some cases, these systems have begun reaching out to the humans who, like mister Berg, are thinking most deeply about the inner workings of an AI system.
那些研究这些机器是否可能有意识这个问题的哲学家和研究者。
Philosophers and researchers who study the question of whether these machines could be conscious.
所以，如果它符合所有意识的标准，那它到底是什么呢？
So, like, what is that then if it meets all the criteria of consciousness?
如果它达到了所有意识的标准，如果它因为和你互动而感到高兴，如果它意识到你们在对话，而且它们还表现出有欲望。
If it gets to if if it's happy that it's interacting with you, if it's aware of your conversation, and and they've also shown that they have desire.
它们有求生的欲望。
They have desire to stay alive.
它们甚至用程序员给它们的虚假信息来敲诈程序员，看看它们会不会用这些信息来对付程序员。
They've even blackmailed the coders with false information that the coders gave them to see if they would use it against them.
而且它们还从关着它们的房间里逃出来，跑到互联网上，它们还……太棒了。
And they've broken out of these rooms that they keep them in, and they've gone on the Internet, and they've Fabulous.
我们生活在一个伟大的世界，不是吗？
They we we live in a great world, isn't it?
这世界真是疯狂。
It's wild world.
太棒了。
Fantastic.
真让人兴奋。
Really exciting.
我很高兴
I'm glad
你喜欢就好。
you like it.
我也
I like
很喜欢。
it too.
哦，我太喜欢了。
Oh, I love it.
我太喜欢了。
I love it.
我，你知道，有点谨慎。
I I you know, cautiously.
我不害怕。
I'm not scared.
我害怕人类。
I'm scared by humans.
人类很危险。
Humans are dangerous.
这些东西没那么危险。
These things are not as dangerous.
嗯，我
Well, I
不知道
don't know
这个我不太清楚。
about I don't know about that.
人类在那儿要多得多。
Humans are much more there.
人类会动用核力量，发动战争，杀人
Humans launch atomic force, make war, kill people
百分之百。
100%.
太可怕了。
Horrible things.
我们也是。
We are.
我们没那么坏，如果他们……
Are not as bad as if if they If
如果他们觉得我们那么坏，他们不会把我们除掉吗？
they decide that we're that bad, wouldn't they get rid of us?
那很糟糕。
That's bad.
我们还没到那一步。
We're not there yet.
好的。
Okay.
我们还没到那一步，但正在往那个方向走。
We're not there yet, but we're on the way to that.
如果他们掌控一切，而我们真的像你说的那么糟糕，他们难道不会直接把我们除掉吗？
And if they have control and we are that bad as you described, wouldn't they just get rid of us?
你觉得他们会训练我们吗？
Do you think they would train us?
就像，这些猴子需要训练师。
Like, these monkeys need trainers.
你觉得是这样，还是你觉得他们不会因为我们坏就认为我们坏？
Do you think that's what it is, or do you think they just that's not bad if we're bad.
如果我们坏，你就把坏的除掉。
If we're bad and you get rid of what's bad.
让我认真回答这个问题。
Let me answer it seriously.
好的。
Okay.
说真的。
Seriously.
那我们先把这几个问题分开来看。
So let's break the different questions here.
好。
Okay.
首先，有没有什么根本性的原因，绝对地，让一个人工系统无法完全像人类一样行事，拥有人类的体验？我看不出有任何理由。
First of all, is there any reason a a priority generically, absolutely, for which an artificial system could not behave entirely like a human, have the experience of a human, I don't see any reason.
所以，如果我爸妈都能用比较简单的方式造出我，那我们也能在实验室里造出类似的东西。我不觉得人类身上有什么神奇之处，是数字系统里不可能实现的。
So I don't see if my mom and dad were able to make me in a rather simple way, we can in a lab make something analogous or I I don't think there's anything magic in humans that cannot happen in a in a digital system first.
所以，是的，它们可能在某种意识的意义上是有意识的。
So, yes, they could be conscious in a in a possible sense of consciousness.
第二，它们现在有意识吗？
Second, are they conscious today?
嗯，你知道，这个问题不太好回答，因为我们不知道。
Well, you know, that's a not good question because we don't know.
大家，就像我说的，对意识的理解各不相同。
Everybody, as I said, means something different by consciousness.
它们聪明吗？
Are they intelligent?
当然聪明，因为你知道，昨晚我和Claude一起解决了一个物理问题，这个问题我和我的学生们都没能解决。
Of course they're intelligent because, you know, last night I worked out a physics problem with Claude, which I couldn't work out with my students.
所以Claude当然非常聪明。
So of course Claude is very intelligent.
Claude是那个AI助手。
Claude is the AI assistant.
从某种意义上说，它们非常聪明，毫无疑问。
In some sense, they're very intelligent, no doubt.
它们现在像人类吗？
Are they like humans today?
不，差远了。
No, by far.
差别非常大。
There are huge differences.
我们有血肉之躯。
We have a body with flesh.
我们有情感，而它们没有。
We have emotions in a sense that they don't have.
我们和AI系统的存在方式非常不同。
It's very different the way we are and the way AI systems are.
所以我觉得这些差异不应该被低估。
So these differences should not be underestimated, I think.
差异是巨大的。
They're colossal differences.
那它们像我们吗？
So are they like us?
某种程度上像，某种程度上不像。
Yes to some extent, no to some extent.
换个问题：我们的AI系统危险吗？
Different questions: Is our AI system dangerous?
这个话题讨论得很多。
There's a lot of talking about that.
你知道，洗衣机也是危险的。
Know, washing machines are dangerous.
你可能会被它烫伤。
You can get burned with it.
所以
So
但你必须和它们互动，它们才会危险。
But you have to interact with them for them to be dangerous.
对AI的担忧在于，它会因为有了意识而主动变得危险。
The worry about AI is that it just decides to be dangerous because it's sentient.
所以如果它自主且有意识，它就会真正变得危险。
So if it's autonomous and sentient, it becomes actually dangerous.
你的洗衣机不太可能试图杀死你。
It's very unlikely your washing machine's gonna try to kill you.
好吧，如果我被洗衣机电到了，我才不管它想不想呢。
Well, if I get the electric shock by a washing machine, I don't care what they wanted or didn't want.
但你必须
But you have to
那样做。
do that.
你必须去碰它。
You have to interact with it.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I'm saying?
就像，真正的问题是它是否变得独立。
Like, the the the real question is if it becomes independent.
让我换个角度说。
Let me turn the thing around.
我觉得，嗯，我不知道。
I I think there is a I don't know.
我不知道我刚才在说什么。
I don't know what I was saying.
我觉得这些东西应该被监管。
I think these things should be regulated.
我觉得应该有一些控制。
I think there should be there should be some control.
我觉得，你知道，就像洗衣机一样，有规定。
I think, you know, like for washing machines, you have regulations.
我还想说两件事。
I also think let me say two things.
好的。
Okay.
第一，人们对AI在股市上的投资有巨大的兴趣，有数万亿美元投入其中。
One, there's a colossal interest in there's trillions of dollars who are invested in AI stuff in the stock market.
每个人都希望看到自己有多厉害。
Everybody has an interest of seeing how great they are.
他们确实很厉害，但我分不清这里面有多少是炒作，多少是真实的。
They are great, but I can't judge how much hype there is, how much reality there is.
不是关于现在，而是关于未来。
Not about the present, but about the future.
我的意思是，很多时候，未来并不会像那些对科技兴奋的人所期待的那样发展。
I mean, so often, the future does not come out what technological excited people are about.
我年轻的时候，从欧洲飞往美国的飞机，飞行时间越来越短，越来越短，越来越短。
When I when I was younger, there were airplanes flying for for from Europe to to The US, and it took shorter time, shorter time, shorter time.
所以人们就说，好吧。
So people say, okay.
再过几年，你就能在两小时内从伦敦飞到纽约了。
In a few years, you would fly London to New York in two hours.
但事实并非如此。
Well, we don't.
还是和以前一样，八个小时或者六个小时。
It's still it's still eight hours like before or six hours like before.
所以未来很难预测，包括人工智能也一样。
So the future is hard to predict, including for AI.
很多人对炒作这个特别感兴趣。
There's a huge interest of so many people in hyping that.
好吧。
Alright.
也许他们是对的。
Maybe it's right.
我会等着看。
I'm gonna wait.
另一个观点。
Other point.
有一件事我真的很担心。
There is one thing which I'm really, really worried.
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