第965集 - 罗伯特·萨波尔斯基

这涉及到复杂的神经生物学。

This is like complicated neurobiology.

它不可能仅仅依靠遗传程序来完成布线。

It can't just come with a genetic program that wires it up.

它必须通过学习所有这些细微差别来完全塑造。

It's gotta be totally sculpted by learning all those subtleties.

哇。

Wow.

那么是否存在

And is there

除了人类之外，还有其他动物会延迟满足吗？

another animal other than humans that does delay reward?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，多巴胺系统、奖励系统，以及与前额叶皮层的相互作用，在啮齿类动物身上也在发生。比如，老鼠可以学会：如果我按一次杠杆，就得到一个奖励，但如果我按两次，付出两倍的努力，就能得到三个奖励，哇，这才是明智的选择。

I mean, the dopamine system, the reward system, the interactions with the frontal cortex, what's happening in a rodent, like rodents could learn to master, okay, if I press this lever once, I get one reward, but if I do two lever presses, if I work twice as hard, I get three rewards, woah, that's the way to go.

猴子也能掌握这一点，但这本质上是另一回事，比如猴子能完成延迟满足任务，需要等待几分钟才能获得奖励。

It can master that, monkeys can master that, but it's just implicitly a different thing like a monkey could do a delayed gratification task where it's got to wait a couple of minutes for the reward.

这和我们人类进行延迟满足时的神经生物学机制完全相同。

And it's the exact same neurobiology of us as us doing delayed gratification.

但我们人类的延迟满足是这样的：你努力学习以取得好的SAT成绩，从而进入一所好大学，再进入一所好的研究生院，找到一份好工作，最后住进你心仪的养老院。

Except we do delayed gratification like you study hard to get a good SAT score to get into a good college, to get into a good grad school, to get a good job, to get into the nursing home of your choice.

我们进行的延迟满足可以长达六十年。

We do delayed gratification that takes sixty years.

根据你的神学观点，我们甚至会进行一种延迟满足，其回报据说要等到死后才能到来。

Depending on your theology, we do delayed gratification where the reward's not gonna come supposedly until the afterlife.

所以，是的，猴子的前额叶皮层也能为它实现延迟满足。

So, like, yeah, a monkey can have its frontal cortex do delayed gratification for it.

哇哦。

Wow.

以分钟为单位。

On the scale of minutes.

而且我们一做就是七十年。

And we go and we like do it for seventy years.

在这方面，我们根本不在一个档次上。

It's we're just in a different league in that regard.

哇。

Wow.

所以，也许我们所遵循的一些宗教规范或道德准则，几乎就像是前额叶皮层的支架。

So essentially maybe even some religious rules or some ethical guidelines that we follow could almost be like a a scaffolding for the frontal cortex.

没错。

Absolutely.

什么才算对的事，什么才算更难的事，这个标准因文化而异，这是一项非常艰巨的神经生物学任务。

The rule of what counts as the right thing and what counts as the harder thing Wow.

非常具有文化特异性，要掌握这一点非常困难。

Is very very culture specific and that's a tough neurobiological job to master.

我们有没有办法知道这是什么时候出现的？

Do we have any idea when this was due?

你说这是人类最近发展出来的，还是我们目前所知最近的？

You said this is the most recent thing developed in humans or the most recent we understand?

嗯，这是大脑中最近才进化出来的部分，也就是说，蜥蜴也有皮层。

Well, it's the it's the most recently evolved part of the brain, which is to say like, lizards in the cortex.

意思是，它并不是

Mean, it's not

什么了不起的东西，但它们确实有原始的皮层。

much to write home about, but they've got, like, primitive cortex.

直到哺乳动物出现，才开始出现更复杂的皮层，能处理更抽象的任务，而直到哺乳动物出现，我们才看到前额叶皮层的最初迹象。

It's not till you get to mammals that you start getting fancier cortex that does more abstract stuff, and it's not till you get to mammals that you start seeing the first hints of frontal cortex.

所以，也就是说，这是最近五千万到一亿年间才进化出来的。

So, you know, recently evolved the last fifty to a hundred million years.

换句话说，前额叶皮层就像是刚诞生的一样，直到灵长类动物出现，才有了发达的前额叶皮层，而在猿类中尤其巨大，而且相对于其他动物，它的结构更复杂、连接更精细。

So in other words, the frontal cortex is like spanking new, and it's not till you get to primates, that you get a big frontal cortex and it's particularly large in apes, and then proportionally it's particularly larger, complexly wired than us.

我知道你花了很多时间研究狒狒，我听了你做的那个《Radio Lab》播客，里面提到那只狒狒，你叫它什么来着？

Now I know you spend a lot of time studying baboons, and I listened to that radio lab podcast that you did where this baboon what do call it?

群体？

Troupe?

是的。

Yeah.

狒狒群就在倾倒人类垃圾或人类废物的地方旁边。

Baboon troop that, was next to the place that was dumping human waste or human garbage.

是的。

Yeah.

这些狒狒逐渐习惯了吃人类的垃圾，当雄性中的优势个体感染了肺结核后，它们的行为发生了前所未有的变化。

And that these baboons became accustomed to eating this human garbage, and the unprecedented change in their behavior when the males, the dominant males got sick from tuberculosis.

没错。

Yep.

好的。

Okay.

正如你所说，我一直都在研究狒狒。

So as you said, I've I've been studying baboons

顺便问一下，你是怎么研究它们的？

How do you study them, by the way?

比如，这具体是怎么操作的？

Like, how does that work?

你都做些什么？

What do you do?

哦，我一共在那里度过了三十三个夏天，每年都回去。你每年都去吗？

Oh, it's been thirty three summers I spent out there going back to You go every year?

大约八年前结束了，但之前连续三十三个夏天都是这样，真惊人。

It it ended about eight years ago, but it had been essentially thirty three straight summers Wow.

你会回到同样的动物身边，在同一棵树下露营——这是在东非的一个国家公园，你年复一年地回到这些动物身边。多年来，我研究的重点是压力与健康，以及压力对大脑的影响。

Of like, you go back to the same animals and you camp under the same tree and this is in a national park in East Africa and you go back to the same animals and sort of the particular area I've focused my work on over the years is stress and health and what stress does to the brain.

对于狒狒而言，我们试图理解：你的社会等级、个性以及社交联系模式，与哪些狒狒胆固醇水平糟糕、哪些血压高、哪些健康、哪些不健康，究竟有什么关系？

And and with the baboons, it was trying to make sense of what does your social rank and your personality and your patterns of social affiliation have to do with which baboons have the rotten cholesterol levels, which baboons have the high blood pressure, who's healthy, who's not.

这些动物的研究方式，就是典型的珍·古道尔式场景：无休止地观察它们，深入了解它们的个人生活。

So these are animals where you'd go do your basic Jane Goodall scene, just like watching them endlessly and knowing all about their personal lives.

此外，我会用吹管系统对狒狒进行麻醉，这事儿特别有趣。

And in addition, I would dart anesthetize the baboons using a a blowgun system, which was totally fun to do.

但麻醉之后，当它们倒下时，我会像给人类做临床检查一样进行同样的检查。

But anesthetize them and when they're down, do basically the same clinical workups you would do on a human.

比如说，这个家伙今年的免疫系统状况如何？

Sort of, okay, how's this guy's immune system working this year?

它们的状况，你知道的，上一次我出去时的情况。

How's their, you know, just working that the last time I was out.

我带了一台便携式心电图机，用来检测这些狒狒的心血管功能。

I had a portable electrocardiogram machine for looking at cardiovascular cardiac function in these guys.

所以你会让它们待上一天。

So you keep them there for a day.

你会做各种检查，然后让它们回到群体中，这样你就能了解它们的身体功能、健康状况、疾病和压力生理反应如何与行为特征相关。

You do various tests, and then you let them go back to their bodies, and then you have a sense of how is their bodily function, their health, their diseases, their stress physiology related to aspects of behavior.

在那里的头十年里，我以为自己学到的是：如果你想成为一只健康、患压力相关疾病最少的狒狒，并且你有选择的余地，那你最好当个高等级的。

For the first ten years out there, I thought what I had learned was if you want to be a healthy baboon with a minimal number of stress related diseases and you get a choice in the matter, you want to be high ranking.

花了我大约二十五年的时间，几乎可以肯定是因为我必须自己慢慢成长，才意识到其中还有更多有趣的事情。

It took me about twenty five years and almost certainly that had to do with my having to grow up a little bit on my own to realize that there's much more interesting stuff going on.

如果你要在成为高等级的狒狒和拥有大量稳定社交关系的狒狒之间做选择，用英语说就是朋友，朋友对你的健康更有益。

If you got a choice between being a high ranking baboon or a baboon with a lot of stable affiliative relationships, translated into English, friends, Friends are going to be even better for your health.

这甚至更有保护作用。

Like that's even more protective.

你多久会和别人坐在一起互相梳理毛发？

How often do you sit and groom with somebody else?

你多久会和别人保持身体接触？

How often you're sitting in contact?

你多久会和幼崽玩耍？

How often you're playing with infants?

事实证明，这些社交互动对健康的缓冲作用，远比单纯的等级地位更重要。

Turns out that's much more of a buffer for good health than simply what your dominance rank is.

这些狒狒开始从度假村觅食，这改变了它们的行为，以至于它们不再那么早起床觅食了。

So these baboons, they started eating food from a resort, and it changed their behavior to the point where they were no longer getting up very early in foraging.

他们知道食物什么时候来，所以就直接晃到这个垃圾场。

They knew when the food was coming, so they just wander down to this dump.

然后他们基本上会为争夺垃圾场的主导权而打架，只有少数强壮有力的雄性能控制那里，直到他们生病。

And then they would basically essentially fight over dominance of the dump, and a few strong powerful males had control over that until they got sick.

太好了。

Great.

对。

Yep.

所以这是隔壁的猴群，它们的领地里有个游客小屋，因此有个垃圾堆。

So this was the troop next door to mine that had this tourist lodge in their territory and thus had a garbage dump.

而且，像这样的国家公园，到处都有控制野生动物接触人类食物的问题。

And, like, national parks everywhere have this issue of having to control wild animals access to.

所以，正如你所说，这个垃圾堆猴群基本上就住在垃圾堆上方的树上，每天早上晃晃悠悠地下来，正好赶上小屋丢弃的剩饭剩菜。

So this garbage dump troop, as you said, had taken to basically just living in the trees above the dump, waddled down each morning just in time for the, like, food junk leftovers from the lodge to be dumped there.

而且，我确实对这个猴群做过一些研究。

And, you know, I did a few studies on this troop.

他们的胆固醇水平很高。

They got high cholesterol levels.

他们出现了糖尿病前期症状。

They got borderline diabetes.

他们长出了皮下脂肪。

They put on, like, subcutaneous fat.

他们在吃一些很好的食物。

They were eating They were eating some nice stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他们出现了蛀牙。

They got tooth decay.

他们的胃里有了不同的寄生虫。

They got different, like, parasites in their stomachs.

所以他们就这样过着优渥的生活，靠捡拾旅游小屋扔掉的甜点为生。

So they're they're just fine living off of the the good life there, like throwing out desserts from this tourist lodge.

而在我的群体，几公里外的地方，我不知道这是怎么发生的，但不知怎的，我的一些雄性狒狒听说了那里正在大吃大喝。

And in my troop, a couple of kilometers away, I don't know how this works, but in some baboon way, some of my males got word of this feasting going on up there.

就像，他们闻到了气味。

Like, they smelled it.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

但后来发展成每天早上，我群体中大约一半的雄性都会跑上几公里，去和那边的狒狒抢夺这些垃圾食物。

But it evolved that in the mornings, about half the males from my troop would pick up and run those couple of kilometers to go punch it out with the guys there to get access to some of this garbage.

关键在于，不是我群体里任意一只狒狒都会去那里。

The key thing was that it wasn't random which of my baboons would go over there.

假设你是一个外来群体的狒狒，突然出现在这个垃圾堆旁，那里有80只狒狒正在大快朵颐，而你是个外人。

So you're a guy from like an outside troop and you show up at this garbage dump and there's 80 baboons like feasting there and you're an outsider.

我群体里的任何一只狒狒，如果不是个强势凶猛的家伙，根本不敢靠近那个垃圾堆。

No one from my troop would like dream of going near the garbage unless he's a big aggressive guy.

另一点是，早晨是狒狒进行社交活动的主要时间。

The other thing is morning is when baboons do most of their socializing stuff.

它们会坐在一起梳理毛发、闲聊，然后再出去开始一天的觅食。

They sit around and they groom and they gossip before they go out and they do the day's foraging.

所以，如果你愿意每天早上都起来去和陌生人打架，只为争夺垃圾，那就意味着你社交联系很弱。

So if you're willing to pick up and instead spend each morning fighting with strangers over garbage, that means you're not very socially affiliated.

换句话说，我群体中去吃垃圾的雄性狒狒，恰恰是那些最具攻击性、社交联系最弱的家伙。

So in other words, the males from my troop who are going to eat the garbage were the most aggressively socially affiliated guys.

这种情况持续了几年，后来那边的狒狒爆发了结核病，因为旅舍里有结核病的肉，而肉类检验员收了贿赂，还有各种令人震惊的事情。

So this is going on for a couple of years, and then there turns out to be a tuberculosis outbreak among the baboons over there because there was tubercular meat in the lodge and a meat inspector was being bribed and all sorts of horrifying things.

你知道，人类得了结核病，可以花上十年时间，慢慢衰弱，同时写上千页的小说来记录这一切。

And, you know, a human gets tuberculosis and they can sit around and write thousand page novels about it for the next ten years while they slowly waste away.

结核病对其他灵长类动物来说，几周内就能致命。

TB kills other primates like over the course of weeks.

在非人类灵长类动物中，结核病就像野火一样迅速蔓延。

It's like wildfire in nonhuman primates.

所以，由于这个垃圾场的受感染肉类引发了结核病疫情，几乎杀死了该群体中所有的狒狒，也杀死了我那些每天早上都去那里觅食的狒狒。

So there's an outbreak of TB from the infected meat in this lodge dump, and it basically kills all the baboons in that troop, and it kills all of my baboons who had been going over there every morning for food.

因此，现在雄性狒狒的数量只剩下平时的一半。

So now what you have is half the number of males as usual.

于是，雌雄比例变成了二比一，这在狒狒群体中是非常不寻常的。

So you got a two to one female to male ratio, which is pretty atypical for a baboon troop.

关键在于，幸存下来的狒狒都是性格温和的家伙。

And the key thing is the baboons who were left are the nice guys.

它们具有良好的社会联系。

They're socially affiliated.

它们是最不具攻击性的。

They're the least aggressive.

狒狒的攻击性是为了什么？

What's baboon aggression about?

你今天过得不顺。

You're having a bad day.

你会找一个更小更弱的人来发泄。

You find somebody smaller and weaker to take it out on.

他们并没有向较弱的动物发泄。

They weren't dumping on weaker animals.

他们没有出现转移性攻击。

They weren't having displaced aggression.

结果，从技术上讲，整个群体变得友善多了。

And it turned into, just to be technical here, like a much nicer troop.

他们互相梳理毛发的频率更高，攻击行为更少，更多地保持身体接触。

They were had much higher rates of grooming, less aggression, more sitting in contact.

雄性狒狒会互相梳理毛发，这在以往的群体中是看不到的。

Male baboons would groom each other, which you don't see male baboons grooming each other in this troop.

仅凭这一点，就已经非常令人着迷了。

They would so in and of itself, that's totally fascinating.

所以，好吧，你清除了50%的混蛋雄性，于是这里就形成了一种公社式的氛围。

So, okay, you get rid of 50% of the males who are the jerks, and you have a commune there going on.

最令人惊讶的是，十年后，这个群体依然保持着这种状态。

What was most interesting, the thing that just flattened me was ten years later, the troop is still like that.

十年后，那些在结核病爆发期间幸存下来并促成这种公社式群体的雄性，早已不在了。

Ten years later, all the males who were there during the TB outbreak, who survived it and ushered in sort of the commune, they're they're long gone.

那么，新的雄性是谁呢？

So who are the new males?

雄性狒狒在青春期时会离开自己的群体，四处游荡，加入其他成年群体，并在那里度过余生，逐步建立自己的等级地位。

Male baboons pick up at puberty, they leave their home troop, and they go wandering and join some adult troop somewhere else and spend the rest of their life there heading up the hierarchy.

换句话说，到十年后，这个群体中所有仍然保持低攻击性、高社会亲和力的雄性，其实都是在其他地方长大的，他们在青少年时期迁入这个群体，尽管他们原本成长于那个充满暴力的普通狒狒世界，却不知为何学会了：我们这里不搞那一套。

In other words, by ten years later, all the males in this troop who were still being less aggressive and more socially affiliative, they had all grown up someplace else in some other troop and transferred as adolescents into this troop and somehow or other learned even though they grew up in the normal big bad baboon world out there, somehow they learned we don't do crap like that here.

别这样。

Cut it out.

哇哦。

Wow.

我为此做了大量研究，试图弄清楚这究竟是怎么回事。

And I did a ton of work sort of seeing what that was about.

这些新雄性到来后，大约需要六个月时间，它们才不再那么容易受到本地雄性的欺压，因为这种转移性攻击行为减少了。

And it takes about six months Once these new males show up for them, they're less subject to resident males dumping on them because there's less of this displacement aggression.

受到雄性欺压减少的雌性会更加放松，压力激素水平更低，也更愿意与它们建立社会联系。

Females who are getting dumped on less by males and thus are much more relaxed, lower stress hormone levels are more willing to be affiliated with them.

你作为一个新的青少年雄性，刚进入一个典型的狒狒群体时，平均要等八十天，才会有雌性为你梳理毛发。

You're some new adolescent male and you show up in your typical baboon troop and it's like eighty days on the average before some female grooms you.

但在这个群体里，只需要三天。

In this troop, it was like three days.

因为每个人都更加放松了，没有人再彼此折磨。

Every because everybody's much more relaxed because no one's being miserable to each other.

结果发现，这些青少年雄性刚来时，和其他群体迁入的雄性一样粗暴。

And it turns out you take a jerky adolescent male because these guys were just as jerky as any transfer males were to any of the neighboring troops.

但你对他们更好一些，他们接下来的六个月里就渐渐平静下来了。

And like you treat them nicer, and they kinda calmed down over the next six months.

这实际上就是社会人类学家不得不称之为文化传递的现象——一种非遗传性的行为方式在代际间的传递。

And literally what you had, what social anthropologists would be forced to define as cultural transmission, Non genetic transmission of a style of behavior from one generation to the next.

这是一种文化的传递，一种高亲和力、低攻击性的文化。

This was culture being transmitted, a culture of high affiliation and less aggression.

这些狒狒基本上过着自然的生活。

And these baboons are essentially living a natural life.

它们不是靠人类提供食物。

They're not getting food from people.

是的。

Yep.

只是过着

Just living the

哇。

wow.

在东非塞伦盖蒂的野外，过着正常的狒狒生活。

Out in the Serengeti in East Africa and just going about normal baboon life.

对我来说，最令人震惊的是，狒狒的攻击性水平和任何其他非人灵长类动物一样高。

For me what was most striking about this is like baboons are like as high rates of aggression as you find in any nonhuman primate.

自六十年代以来，雄性主导、高度等级化的社会结构。

Male dominance, highly hierarchical structured societies since the early sixties.

它们不仅仅是比喻意义上的，而是实实在在地成为灵长类动物因攻击性、雄性主导、等级和阶层化而进化的教科书案例。

They've not just metaphorically, but they've literally been the textbook example of primates evolved for aggression and male dominance and hierarchy and stratification.

而这一切只需要一代人经历一种截然不同的环境，就能看到前所未见的狒狒行为模式。

And all it took was one generation of a radically unique circumstance, and you see a pattern of baboon behavior that had never been seen before.

所以某种程度上，我们在人类身上看到的，是文化之间的巨大差异，人们被对待的方式、女性被对待的方式、他们彼此共处的方式，以及他们所生活的社区的各种方面。

So in a sense, what we see in human beings, see big differences in cultures, in the way people are treated, the way women are treated, the the way we they cohabitate with each other, the way, you know, just whatever, the the the community they live in.

我们的行为方式存在差异。

There's differences in the way we behave.

但对于大多数灵长类动物来说，你基本上会说，大多数黑猩猩或大多数倭黑猩猩，你都可以一概而论地说倭黑猩猩这样行为，黑猩猩那样行为。

But with most primates, would you essentially say, like, most chimpanzees or most bonobos that you can kind of uniformly say bonobos behave this way, chimpanzees behave this way.

是的。

Yeah.

这是你见过的唯一一次，灵长类动物的标准行为出现如此彻底的变异吗？

Is this the only time you've ever seen, like, a complete variation of the standard behavior of a primate?

据我所知，这是迄今为止唯一见过的类似案例。

As far as I know, this is the only example of something like this that's been seen.

但在其他极端生态条件下，也会出现一些剧烈的变化。

But other ecological extremes and you get some radical shifts.

但在很多方面，这都是人们在狒狒群体社会环境中见过的最大文化转变。

But in lots of ways, this is the biggest cultural shift that anyone has seen in sort of the social milieu of a baboon troop.

对我来说，这最核心的启示正是你刚才点出的那一点。

And for me, what the biggest take home message of that is exactly what you just honed in on.

哦，这些家伙被当作等级制度和攻击性等行为不可避免的典型例子。

Oh, these guys are textbook examples of the inevitability of strat ification and aggression and all.

但事实并非如此，这并非不可避免。

And no, it turns out it's not inevitable.

在某些独特的环境下，这种行为可能突然逆转，并且能跨代传递。

It can suddenly flip with some, like, unique circumstances and be transmitted multi generationally.

任何看过人类行为后还声称我们某些最令人反感的行为是必然的，都是站不住脚的。

Anyone who could look at humans and say that there's certain inevitabilities to some of the most unpalatable things we do, they don't have a leg to stand on.

是的

Yeah.

如果狒狒本身就具备行为上的灵活性和可塑性，只是等待像这样的独特情境出现，然后在短短六个月里 adopt 一种新的文化风格并将其传承下去。

If baboons have the behavioral sort of flexibility, plasticity built into them just lurking for a unique situation like this, and suddenly six months of a different cultural style and you adopt it and pass it on.

因此，你没有任何依据声称人类文化与行为中某些最恶劣的方面是不可避免的。

Again, you don't have a leg to stand on to say that certain of the worst things about human culture and behavior is inevitable.

不。

No.

我们从一个大洲到另一个大洲的差异如此巨大，以至于我们已经习以为常了。

We vary so wildly, from the continent to continent that we've we've kinda gotten used to it.

但看到另一种灵长类动物也如此，看到环境变化能彻底改变它们的行为，甚至彻底改变整个群体——几十年后，我的意思是，二十年后，它们依然如此。

But to see it in in another kind of primate and to see that circumstances can change the way they behave and and literally change their entire community to the point where decades later I mean, it's like twenty years later, they're still the same.

对吧？

Right?

真的是这样吗？

Is that the case?

那里的文化持续了大约二十年。

They the culture there went for about twenty years.

它会逐渐消散吗？

And is it does it dissolve down?

它们会回归到正常的狒狒行为吗？

Did it evolve back to normal baboon behavior?

不幸的是，当军队进驻由结核病爆发造成的空缺区域时，这种文化就结束了。

Unfortunately, it basically ended when the troops removed into the vacuum created by the the TB outbreak.

海军部队进驻了小屋区域，整个群体逐渐瓦解了。

And the Navy troops moved into the lodge area and they kind of disintegrated as a troop.

它们中的许多已经对人类足够习以为常，以至于构成了威胁。

A lot of them got habituated enough to the humans there to represent the danger.

公园管理员不得不射杀了大约一半的狒狒。

Game park rangers had to kill about half of them.

所以这个群体基本上已经不复存在了，是的。

So the troop basically does not exist anymore, but Uh-huh.

持续了大约二十年。

For about twenty years.

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

那么，这是否让你对人类抱有希望呢？

Well, does that give you hope when it comes to human beings?

因为这似乎是一种巨大的行为转变，而这种灵长类动物并没有语言。

Because it seems like it's such a radical shift to the behavior of a a and primate without a language.

是的。

Yeah.

看到这种情况是可能的——仅仅环境的变化就能彻底改变这个群体的整个行为模式。

That to to see that that's possible, that just a shift of circumstance can change the entire behavior pattern of this troop.

没错。

Yep.

我的意思是，最简单的启示就是：要想让人类实现世界和平，干脆把结核病传染给所有具有攻击性的男性好了。

I mean, sort of the the the easy take home message is to to usher in world peace with humans just like go give TB to, like, all the aggressive males.

但我想这并不是最显而易见的启示。

But I guess that's not the sort of most obvious take home message.

但你看，人类是会改变的。

But, I mean, you look at humans change.

人类文化也会改变。

Human cultures change.

十七世纪时，欧洲最可怕的人是瑞典人。

The seventeenth century, like the most terrifying people in Europe were the Swedes.

他们整个世纪都在欧洲横冲直撞，但如今已经二百多年没打过仗了。

They spent the whole century rampaging through Europe, and they've now gone more than two hundred years since they've had a war.

第一次世界大战期间，1914年的圣诞树。

World War one Christmas trees in 1914.

仅仅四个小时，英德士兵就跨越战线互动，而他们本只是在战壕之间的无人区收殓尸体。

All it took was about four hours of British and German troops fraternizing from across the lines while they were supposedly doing nothing more than retrieving dead bodies from no man's land between the trenches.

但到结束时，他们已一起祈祷、共进圣诞晚餐、踢足球、交换地址约好战后相见，有些地方甚至持续了数日，直到军官出现并威胁要开枪射杀他们，才迫使他们回到互相杀戮的状态。

And before it was over with, they were praying together and having Christmas dinner together and playing soccer together and exchanging addresses to meet after the war and where they held out for days at some of those points until officers had to show up and threatened to shoot these guys unless they went back to trying to kill each other.

变化可以非常剧烈。

Change can occur very dramatically.

我的意思是，现在有许多旅行社专门服务越战老兵重返越南，参加和解仪式，或帮助建立桥梁、学校等慈善项目。

I mean, these days, there's entire travel agencies that devote that are devoted to Vietnam veterans going to Vietnam, going back for reconciliation ceremonies, or going back to, you know, foundations that literally build bridges across rivers, help build schools, all of that.

如果在1970年有人能想象到这种情形，会怎么样？

What if that could have been conceived of in, like, 1970?

是的。

Yeah.

人类拥有惊人的改变能力。

Humans have an astonishing capacity to change.

当你思考所有塑造一个人身份和行为的变量，以及这些人与拥有共同或独特变量的其他人互动时，这真是令人着迷。

It's just it's so fascinating when you consider all of the variables that cause a person to be who they are, to behave who they are, and then them interacting with all these other people who share variables and have unique variables.

决定一个社区、一座城市、一个国家的变量如此之多。

And that there's so many different factors in what makes a community, a city, a country.

当你考虑到所有这些变量时，这确实令人难以置信。

It's it's pretty mind boggling when you consider all the variables.

这简直令人难以置信。

It's utterly mind boggling.

而要真正引发一些争议，或者说在当前阶段，面对如此复杂的因素、我们尚未发现的生物学机制，以及关于行为来源的诸多未解之谜，我们称之为自由意志。

And just to really get sort of provocative or at this point, what one does with all that complexity and with all the biology we haven't discovered yet and all those gaping sort of holes of explanation as to where that behavior comes from is this thing we call free will.

是的。

Yeah.

所谓自由意志，不过是尚未被发现的生物学机制而已。

All free will is is the biology we haven't discovered yet.

是的。

Yeah.

萨姆·哈里斯曾经跟我谈论自由意志，让我彻底颠覆了认知——我以前一直相信自由意志是真实存在的，直到他向我解释决定论和各种影响因素。

Sam Harris broke my brain talking about free will once where I really believed it was real until he started explaining to me determinism and all the different variables.

而且，是的，我的意思是，确实存在一点点我们拥有的东西，比如你提到的前额叶皮层，它让你能够抵制某些冲动。

And, yeah, I mean, you you there there is a little bit of something that we have where you're talking about the frontal cortex that allows you to resist things.

但关键问题是，为什么你的意志是这样的？

But, like, why is yours the way it is is the big question.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

比如，你还在胎儿时期时，你母亲的压力水平可能也产生了一些影响。

And if, like, some of it had to do with how stressed your mother was when you were a fetus.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，原来如此。

Like, how oh, okay.

这仅仅涉及到我们接收到的感官层面的信息。

Like, here's it's just on the level of sort of sensory stuff going on.

我们从外界接收到的感官线索如何影响我们的行为。

Just the sensory cues we're getting in the world and how that's influencing our behavior.

在公交站贴一张只画着一对眼睛的海报，人们就会少乱扔垃圾。

Put up a pair of eyes, a poster with just showing a pair of eyes on a bus stop and people litter less.

哇哦。

Woah.

在电脑屏幕上显示一双眼睛，人们在在线经济游戏中会变得更加慷慨，因为这触发了被监视的感觉。

Display a pair of eyes on a computer screen and people become more generous in online economic games because it's tapping into being watched.

把人放进一个有臭垃圾的房间里，他们在填写问卷时会变得更加社会保守，因为某种东西让人从直觉上感到恶心，这会让我们倾向于认为与自己不同的人是错的。

Stick somebody in a room with smelly garbage and they become more socially conservative on questionnaires they're filling out because something just feels viscerally disgusting and that biases us towards deciding that something that's different is different and wrong.

人们并不会在经济问题或地缘政治问题上变得更保守。

People don't become more conservative about economic issues or geopolitical stuff.

他们只是更有可能认为，那些和你做法不同的人，不只是不同。

They're just more likely to decide that thems who do something different from you, it's not just different.

而是错的，因为房间里有臭垃圾，让人感觉有点恶心。

It's wrong because something just feels kind of disgusting because there's smelly garbage in a room.

有一项极具影响力的研究，分析了一年中5000个假释委员会的判决，发现法官决定是否给予假释或送回监狱的最重要预测因素，是自他们上一次进食以来经过了多少小时。

One very influential study looking at 5,000 judicial decisions over the course of a year in a parole board system and the single biggest predictor of what decision a judge was gonna make if they gave somebody parole or sent them back to the slammer was how many hours it had been since the judge had eaten a meal.

哇。

Wow.

因为当你的血液中葡萄糖水平较高时，你的前额叶皮层运作得更好，因为它是大脑中一个非常耗能的部位。当你饿的时候，你会减少同情心。

Because when you got higher glucose levels in your bloodstream, your frontal cortex works better because it's a real expensive part of the brain And when you're hungry, you feel less sympathy.

你会减少同理心。

You feel less empathy.

人们在经济游戏中会变得不那么慷慨，也不太愿意为这个贡献多少。

People become less generous in economic games and how much would you contribute to this.

而法官在任何评判情境中都需要完成一项艰难的前额叶任务：试图从他人的角度看世界。

And what sort of a judge has to do there in a situation anytime we judge is do this difficult frontal task of trying to view the world from somebody else's perspective.

但当你低血糖、四个小时没吃东西时，你的前额叶皮层很可能就会说：算了吧。

And you're hypoglycemic, you haven't eaten in four hours, and it's more likely that your frontal cortex in effect is gonna say, screw that.

这太难了。

That's too hard.

这人是个混蛋。

The guy's rotten.

把他送回监狱。

Send him back to jail.

哇。

Wow.

最令人惊讶的是，如果你在那些法官做出那个决定后的两秒钟内问他们，他们的决定很大程度上可以通过葡萄糖对大脑代谢的影响来预测，然后问他们：‘你为什么做出这个决定？’

And what's most amazing is if you had gotten one of those judges two seconds after they made that decision, that could most be predicted by the effects of glucose on brain metabolism and ask them, so why do you make that decision?

他们会像引用启蒙时代的哲学家一样给出理由。

And they're going to like be quoting like enlightenment age philosophers or something.

这其实就是一种合理化，是在为潜藏在表面之下、影响我们行为的生物学机制找借口。

And that's just like rationalization, running to catch up with the biology that's just rumbling underneath the surface there and influencing our behaviors.

哇。

Wow.

所以，也许提升社会的最佳方式之一就是让人们吃饱、减轻压力。

So it it it like maybe one of the best ways we can enhance society is keep people well fed and lower stress.

是的。

Yeah.

至少，几十年来人们都知道，当我们处于压力状态时，学习和记忆能力会变差。

If nothing else, like what people have known for decades when we're stressed, our like learning and memory doesn't work that well.

然后人们发现，在压力下，我们更容易感到焦虑，并学会害怕那些本不必害怕的事物。

Then people learned we're more likely to be anxious and learn to be afraid of things we don't need to be afraid of.

接着我们了解到，压力会让我们判断力变差，前额叶皮层无法正常运作。

And then we learned we're more likely to have horrible judgment and have our frontal cortex not work very well.

最新发现的是，当你处于压力状态时，会变得缺乏同理心，因为试图从他人的角度看世界、关心他们的烦恼而非自己的问题，需要付出大量心理努力。

And the newest realm of that is and when you're stressed, you're less empathic because it takes a lot of work to try to view the world from somebody else's perspective and worry about their worries instead of your own problems.

如果你处于防御或担忧的状态，你最有可能突然发怒，最有可能迅速保护自己。

And if you're in a defensive or worried position that you're most likely to lash out, you're most likely to protect yourself quickly.

是的。

Yep.

确切地说，当压力激素水平升高时，大脑中与同理心相关的部分功能会减弱。

And quite literally a part of the brain that's involved in empathy doesn't work as well when stress hormone levels are elevated.

那前额叶皮层呢？会有实际的损伤吗？

Now what about the frontal cortex and and actual damage?

比如车祸造成的损伤，当然。

Like damage from car accidents or Sure.

头部外伤？

Head trauma?

一个非常有趣且有争议的领域。

One incredibly interesting contentious area.

如果你严重损伤了某人的前额叶皮层，他们仍然能分辨对错，但在最根本的层面上却无法控制自己的行为。

You massively damage somebody's frontal cortex and they will know the difference between right and wrong, yet they still cannot regulate their behavior, on the most fundamental level.

19世纪40年代有一位著名的神经学病例，叫菲尼斯·盖奇，他是一名铁路建设工地的工头。

Famous neurological patient in the eighteen forties, Phineas Gage, he had part of his frontal cortex destroyed in a he was a foreman of a railroad construction line.

他遇到了一些炸药的问题。

He had a problem with some dynamite.

有人做错了事。

Somebody did something wrong.

一根13英尺长的金属杆从他的一只眼睛射入，从头顶穿出，带走了他的前额叶皮层，最终落在约50英尺外的地方。

A 13 foot metal rod shot up one of his eyes and out the top of his head and took his frontal cortex with it, landing about 50 feet away.

盖奇原本是个严谨、虔诚、可靠的人，是那里的工头，但此后却变成了一个放纵、粗俗、性骚扰成性的霸凌者，多年再也无法保住任何工作，因为他的前额叶皮层被毁了。

And Gage, who was the sobrietist, devout, reliable, he was the foreman there, turns into this disinhibited, crass, sexually abusive bully afterward who never was able to hold a job again for years afterward because you were taken out his frontal cortex.

当你损伤了额叶皮层，就会导致意志行为的失调，这换句话说就是，人们知道什么是最佳行为，知道对错，却无法控制自己的行为。

And you damage the frontal cortex and you get dysregulation of volitional behavior which is once again way of saying people know what their optimal behavior is, the difference between right and wrong and yet they can't regulate their behavior.

根据你参考的研究不同，大约有百分之二十五到五十的死刑犯有头部前额遭受过震荡性创伤的病史。

Something like depending on which study you look at, something like twenty five to fifty percent of the men on death row in this country have a history of concussive head trauma to the front of their heads.

哇。

Wow.

这说明所谓的意志控制，其实并没有那么意志可控。

And that's a world of, like, volitional control is not that volitional.

这似乎与脑叶切除术的观点相矛盾。

Well, that seems to go contrary to the idea of a lobotomy then.

好吧。

Okay.

脑叶切除术就是那样。

Lobotomy was just that's great.

脑叶切除术简直就是破坏大脑前三分之一的区域。

That lobotomy was just like savaging about the front third of the brain.

它主要针对的是前额叶部分。

It was getting the frontal component.

同时也涉及了边缘系统的感情部分。

It was also getting limbic emotional

他们做脑叶切除术时具体做了什么？

What what did they do when they did lobotomies?

当这种手术真正发展起来时，一个科学界令人惊叹的讽刺是，葡萄牙神经学家伊加斯·莫尼兹——这种手术最初被称为脑白质切断术——因这项所谓的卓越技术获得了诺贝尔生理学或医学奖。

Well, by the time it really got developed, the guy like one of science's amazing ironies, the guy Portuguese neurologist named Igas Moniz, who developed leucotomies is what they were originally called, got the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine for this wonderful technique.

当这种手术传入美国并作为精神科干预手段时，美国人特有的实用精神和高效作风决定采用流水线式的方法来操作。

And then when it hit America as a sort of psychiatric intervention, good American know how and can do spirit decided to get a sort of assembly line approach to it.

一位名叫沃尔特·弗里曼的人开创了快速的‘砰砰’式前额叶切除术：你用冰锥从患者眼球后方插入，穿过视神经腔，然后在里面搅动刮除。

A guy named Walter Freeman pioneered sort of rapid, like, wham bam frontal lobotomies where you would insert an eye pick through some an ice pick, rather, behind somebody's eyeball, go up through the optic cavity there, and go in there and just scoop around.

就这样完成了。

And there you go.

我的意思是，他在20世纪50年代就拍了教学影片，教人如何每几分钟就完成一例前额叶切除术，只需一个充满清教徒式勤奋精神的下午，就能为整个医院的精神病患者全部做完手术。

I mean, he had, like, instructional films in the fifties for how you could do a frontal lobotomy on, like, one person every umpteen minutes and just, go through an entire hospital's worth of psychiatric patients in one like devoted afternoon of like Calvinist ethic hard work.

所以他们只是在混乱地破坏。

So they were just scrambling it.

他们在破坏。

They were scrambling.

所以你当时切断的神经生物学机制几乎是随机的，除了你只是把大脑前部搞得一团糟。

So the neurobiology of like what you were disconnecting there was it was like virtually random other than you were just making a mess of the front part of the brain.

因此，额叶损伤则是一个更具有选择性的问题。

So frontal damage instead is a much more selective issue.

当你想到这一切还不到一百年前的时候，你会不寒而栗吗？

Do you shudder when you think about the fact that that was just not even a 100 years ago?

是的。

Yeah.

你去医学院的图书馆，下到八楼以下的地下室，读一读那些1900年代左右的期刊吧。

You know, go go go to a medical school library and go eight floors down to the sub sub basement and, like, go read some of these journals from, like, nineteen o'clock whatever.

然后，是的，你会不寒而栗。

And, like, yeah, you shudder.

我的天啊。

My god.

他们当时不知道的事情。

The things they didn't know then.

我的天啊。

My god.

他们当时可能造成的伤害。

The damage they could have done then.

关于疾病和精神障碍成因的伤害。

The damage as to the causes of disease, the causes of psychiatric disorders.

我的天啊，他们当时做的某些事情。

My god, some of the things they were doing then.

如果你还有哪怕一点点自我反思的能力，你就得坐下来想：一百年后，人们会审视我们的知识水平，并说出同样的话。

And if you've got a shred of capacity for self reflection, you then have to sit there and say, well, a hundred years from now they're gonna look be looking at our level of knowledge and they'll be saying the same exact thing.

你认为最大的会是哪一个？

What do you think would be the big one?

你觉得会是抗抑郁药吗？

Would you think it would be antidepressants?

你觉得会是他们随意开出的止痛药吗？

Do you think it would be pain killers that they're handing out?

你觉得现在人们将来会最震惊的是什么？

What do you think would be the big one that people be freaking out about today?

我在想我们现在的认知

I think about what we think

关于这个，是的。

about Yeah.

但我们现在正在做的那些事

But what we're doing now that's

我认为最突出的将是，天啊，他们曾经固守的关于人类能动性和自由意志的那套古老而有害的观念。

I think it's overwhelmingly gonna be, my god, that that quaint medieval destructive belief they held on to them about human agency and free will.

哇哦。

Woah.

他们惩罚那些大脑无法调节自身行为的人。

They punished people who had brains that couldn't regulate their own behavior.

他们惩罚那些因毒素暴露或青春期压力而导致大脑在特定时刻无法控制某种行为的人。

They punished people who because of toxin exposure or stress during adolescence wound up with brains that couldn't control this or that at particular junctures.

那时他们还用‘正义’这样的词。

And they used words like justice back then.

哇。

Wow.

我无法相信他们曾经做过这些事。

I can't believe the stuff they did.

这简直就像一群穿着浮夸的农夫，手持火把，像中世纪城堡周围的‘正义’概念那样，四处纵火焚烧。

It was practically like gangs of, like, gaudy risk peasants getting burning torches and going and burning down the whatevers around the medieval castle in terms of senses of the word justice applying to what biology has to do with behavior.

很少有人认同你这种想法。

There's there's so few people that share this idea that you're having.

你的理解显然比普通人深刻得多，你了解所有这些行为问题背后的机制，以及各种因素如何影响人类的行为。

I mean, obviously, your sense of it is so much more educated than the average person, and you understand all the mechanisms behind all these particular behavioral problems that people have, and all these different things can affect the way human beings operate.

但大多数人并不了解这一点。

But most people are not aware of this.

我的意思是，真的是绝大多数人。

I mean, literally most people.

如果你要猜的话，可能高达90%的人从未真正考虑过那些导致一个人大脑陷入冲动决策、糟糕决策情境的各种因素。

Like, if you had a guess, it's it might be in a 90% of people haven't really considered all the factors that lead to someone having a brain that would put them in these impulsive decision terrible decision making situations.

但让我感到些许乐观的是，至少在西方，大多数人已经在某些领域做到了这一点。

Well, what's what gives me a little bit of sort of optimism is most people though, at least in the West, have done that in a couple of realms.

比如五百年前，如果你癫痫发作，即使是最聪明、最有反思能力、最富有同情心的中世纪自由派人士，也会认为癫痫发作是因为你被恶魔附身，治疗方式就是把你烧死在火刑柱上。

Like five hundred years ago, if you had an epileptic seizure, the smartest, most reflective, most compassionate, like, middle ages, bleeding heart liberals even would have had an explanation for what caused an epileptic seizure, which is you were demonically possessed and the therapeutic intervention was to burn you at the stake.

而如今，我们已经进入了一个大约一两百年的思维模式，转而做出生物学上的解释。

And now instead, we're, I don't know, a century or two into having a mindset where instead we make a biological statement.

这不是他的错。

Oh, it's not him.

这是他的疾病。

It's his disease.

哦，他不是被恶魔附身了。

Oh, he's not demonically possessed.

他的大脑里的钾离子通道出了问题，除非他出现同步的爆发性行为，时不时会发作癫痫。

He's got something screwy with his potassium channels in his brain unless he gets synchronized outbursts and every now and then he has a seizure disorder.

我们花了大约五百年才从‘这是亵渎行为，我们知道该怎么处理——烧死他’，转变到‘这其实是个生物学问题’。

Like, it's taken us about five hundred years to do that one to go from this is a a blasphemous behavior where we know the intervention which is to burn somebody at the stake, the same, oh, it's a biological problem.

即使有人患有无法控制的、对治疗无反应的癫痫，我们也不会让他开车，但你不会坐那儿说，好，咱们把所有癫痫患者的驾照都烧了吧。

And we even recognize constraints with it if somebody has uncontrolled epilepsy that's treatment resistant, they may not be able to get a driver's license, but you don't sit there and say, yeah, let's have a burning of the driver's licenses of the epileptics.

他们终于得到应有的对待了，真是够晚的。

It's about damn time they got what they were no.

在这个领域里，‘邪恶’、‘灵魂’、‘惩罚’或‘正义’这类词完全不相关。

It's a realm where words like evil or soul or punishment or justice, it's totally irrelevant.

这纯粹是个神经学疾病。

Oh, it's a neurological disorder.

所以我们花了大约五百年才达到这个认知水平。

So it's only taken us about five hundred years to get to that point.

所以也许，你知道，我们至少已经完成过一次这种认知上的飞跃，意识到但并没有受害者

So maybe, you know, we've done that cognitive leap at least once before we recognize But there's no victims

不过。

there though.

没有，没有。

There's no No.

但将来可能会有。

Yet.

嗯，我不确定。

Well, I don't know.

如果一个人大多数时候

If somebody most

都是这样。

of the time.

显而易见，如果有人在开车时发作癫痫并导致他人死亡，是的。

Obviously, if someone's behind the wheel and they have a seizure and someone dies Yeah.

但我们并不认为这是某人在主动做某事。

But we don't think of it as someone doing something.

我们只是觉得事情发生了。

We think of it there.

他们失去了对身体的控制，真的是完全失控了。

They lose they lost control of their body, like literally.

是的。

Yeah.

而他们不幸地驾驶着汽车，结果就发生了这样的事。

And they're piloting a car unfortunately, and that's what happens.

但这和有人故意犯罪是不同的。

But versus someone committing a crime.

五百年前，如果一个癫痫患者在发作时四肢乱舞并击中了别人，那会被视为袭击和伤害。

Five hundred years ago, if an epileptic during a seizure with their limbs flailing struck someone, that would have been assault and battery.

嗯。

Mhmm.

谁让他们去和撒旦睡觉的？

Because who told them to go, like, sleep with Satan?

那是他们自己的事，天啊，现在这种想法简直荒谬至极。

That's their own And damn it's like, it's a ridiculous mindset now.

在发展中国家的许多地区，人们仍然对癫痫持有这种看法，但在西方，这种观念已经完全不同了。

There's large parts of the developing world that still has exactly that view of epilepsy, but at least in the West, like, that's an unrecognizably different mindset.

不。

No.

不。

No.

他们并没有选择这么做。

That was not they didn't choose to do that.

这是他们的生物学出了问题。

That was something screwy with their biology.

我们已经达到了这种认知。

Like, we've gotten to that.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

也许再过五百年，我们就能做到，这个国家有一半的陪审团能够明白同样的道理——这不是他的错。

Maybe another five hundred years and we're gonna be able to do that with maybe half the juries in this country are capable of doing the same thing of saying, it's not him.

这是他的疾病。

It's his disease.

当你面对一个在妄想状态下实施暴力行为的偏执型精神分裂症患者时。

When you have somebody with paranoid schizophrenia who in a delusional state does something violent.

也许，我不确定，这个国家一半的老师都能明白——这个孩子不是懒惰。

Maybe, I don't know, half of teachers in the country are able to incorporate, no, this kid isn't lazy.

他们学不会阅读并不是这个原因。

That's not why they're not learning to read.

他们患有一种叫做阅读障碍的疾病，这意味着他们的大脑皮层存在微小的异常，这与他们本人无关。

They have this thing called dyslexia, meaning there's abnormalities, micro abnormalities in their cortex and the part having to do with it's not them.

就像你说的，我们正在取得一点点进展，但是

It's like you know, we're making a little bit of progress, but

所以你看，你似乎很乐观。

you So see you seem optimistic then.

嗯，在五百年的时间尺度上算是乐观吧。

Well, optimistic in five hundred year time spans.

我们认为事情正在朝正确的方向发展，只是非常缓慢。

We think it's kind of playing it out in the the right direction just very slowly.

但当你看到这些政治辩论，还有电视上的人谈论犯罪与惩罚，却完全不讨论这些因素时。

But when you see these, like, political debates and and and people on television talking about crime and punishment and and none of these factors being discussed.

这难道不让人极度沮丧吗？

Is it incredibly frustrating?

确实让人极度沮丧。

It's incredibly frustrating.

我的意思是，他们将来回看我们时会说，天啊。

I mean, they will look back at us and say, my god.

他们当时所相信的那些观念，以及那时造成的伤害。

The things they thought then, the damage they did then.

而目前我们能做的，是鉴于我们对生物学的了解还非常有限，看看我们最近才了解到的关于前额叶皮层、催产素或基因行为的这些内容。

And all we can do at this point given that we don't know a whole lot of the biology and look at most of this stuff that we've learned about the frontal cortex or oxytocin or genes that behave.

而所有这些知识，都是在过去五十年、过去二十年、甚至过去五年里才获得的。

And we've learned all of it in the last fifty years, in the last twenty years, in the last five years.

比如，你看看这些论文发表的时间分布。

Like, you look at, like, the distribution of when these papers were published.

在我们真正理解行为成因之前，尤其是当我们对那些我们严厉评判的行为进行判断时，我们唯一能做的就是保持极大的谦逊，因为我们很可能根本不知道其中真实的生物学机制，于是我们用一种叫做‘意志’和‘自由意志’的虚构概念，来填补这些巨大的认知空白。

You know, all we could do in the meantime is, like, have a hell of a lot of humility before we think we understand what the cause is of the behavior, especially behavior that we judge harshly because the odds are we haven't a clue what the actual biology is of what's going on there and we fill in those attributional yawning vacuums with this invention that we call volition and free will.

有人曾用弓形虫作为犯罪的借口或辩护理由吗？

Has anyone ever used toxo for an excuse or for a defense for a crime?

我不确定，但有个‘奇巧案’。

I don't There was that Twinkie case.

你还记得奇巧案吗？

Remember the Twinkie case?

就是那个‘奇巧谋杀案’？

Twinkie murder case?

丹·怀特的血糖水平。

Dan White blood sugar levels.

这已经被用过了。

That's been used.

严重的经前综合征曾成功在法庭上被用作减轻女性在经期前后实施暴力犯罪刑罚的理由。

Severe perimenstrual syndrome has been used successfully in courts of law to mitigate sentencing of women who committed violent crimes around the time of their period.

拥有某些基因变异——这个基因不幸被冠以‘战士基因’这个糟糕的名称——已在几个法庭中成功用于减轻量刑。

Having certain variants on genes, this one gene which unfortunately this variant has gotten the horrible term, the warrior gene, has been used successfully in a couple of courts of law to mitigate sentencing.

他们是怎么用这个的？

What how they have they used that?

什么是战士基因？

What is the warrior gene?

它是一种叫做MAO-A、单胺氧化酶A的基因。

It's this it's this it's a gene called MAO alpha, monoamine oxidase alpha.

它与神经化学有关，也与攻击性的神经化学机制有关。

It's got something to do with neurochemistry and something to do with the neurochemistry of aggression.

这个基因有几种不同的版本，其中一种特定变异与人类中较高的反社会攻击行为相关。

The gene comes in a couple of different versions and one particular variant is associated with high rates of antisocial aggression in humans.

但前提是这个人在童年时期曾遭受虐待。

If and only if the human was abused during childhood.

换句话说，基因本身完全不决定任何行为，这完全是基因与环境的交互作用。

In other words, the gene is determining absolutely zero you're getting a gene environment interaction.

如果没有遭受童年虐待，即使携带这种基因变异，对该行为也毫无影响。

The absence of an abusive childhood having this gene variant has zero impact on this behavior.

因此，像这样极其简化且伪科学的解读，甚至导致法庭得出结论：哦，天啊，这个基因变异必然会导致。

So like ridiculously simplified pseudo scientific interpretations findings like these have sort of led even to courts of law saying, oh, wow, has that genetic variant that's inevitably gonna

这是否类似于印度曾使用fMRI来判断某人对谋杀案的知情情况，并因此判定一名女性有罪？

So is this similar in a way to, I believe it was India they used fMRI to determine someone's knowledge of a murder and they convicted the woman and made her guilty of it?

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

没错，MRI是一家美国公司，声称其技术已经足够成熟，能够判断你是否在说谎。

No lie MRI is the name of the company in The United States that purports to have the technology well enough that they can tell if you're lying or not.

但据我了解，这仅仅是对犯罪事实的功能性认知，没错。

But it's all but but from what I understand, it was just functional knowledge of the crime Yep.

这种认知可能是通过辩护或试图构建辩护策略而获得的，因为你显然对这场犯罪投入巨大，因为你可能因此被判终身监禁。

Which could have been imparted in defending or trying to put together a defense because you're obviously have a lot invested in this crime because you might go to jail for the rest of your life for it.

对。

Yep.

基本上，这方面的科学依据并不存在。

Basically, there's no science for that.

科学还达不到这个水平。

The science is not there yet.

还不行。

Not

所以这种案例在美国永远不会成立，或者不应该成立。

So it would never work in America, that that case, or should not,

我应该说一下。

I should say.

不应该，也不应该在印度生效。

Should not and should not work in India.

印度曾经是

India was

是的。

in yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个案例，其中那个

That that's a case where the So

他们对这个战士基因做了什么？

what have they done with this warrior gene?

有人是如何被无罪释放的？

How has someone been exonerated?

哦，那是在哪里？

Oh, where was it?

我认为是在意大利的一个法院，当时因为辩护方事后提出论点，判决被减轻了。

I think it was in a court in Italy, where just sentencing was decreased because the defense made an argument afterwards.

嗯，这是基因上的倾向。

Well, genetically predisposed.

所以，就像那样

So, like, that's like

意大利不就是那个科学家因未能预测地震而被起诉的地方吗？

Isn't Italy the place where they charged scientists with not being able to register when an earthquake was coming?

地震，是的。

Earthquake Yeah.

通过向公众保证没有地震，是的。

By assuring the public there wasn't an earthquake Yeah.

他们真的为此审判了这些人。

They they literally tried them for this.

是的。

Yeah.

我想那是我的人。

I I think It's my people.

动物。

Animals.

我想那件事的余波还在平息中。

They're they're I think the the dust is still settling from that one.

我认为大多数定罪都已被推翻。

I think most of those convictions have been overturned.

那些人不得不上法庭，真是令人恐惧。

Terrifying that those people had to go to court.

想象一下，如果你是一名地震学家，你得说：嘿。

Imagine if you're a seismologist and you have to go, hey.

这可不是这么回事，你这个混蛋。

This is not how it works, you asshole.

对吧？

Right?

天啊。

Jesus Christ.

我无法告诉你它什么时候会发生。

I can't tell you when it's coming.

你以为我会出国吗？

You don't think I would be out of the country?

还有，你到底怎么了？

Also What the fuck is wrong

你？

with you?

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我儿子，那个科学家，竟然被定罪为谋杀。

My son, the scientist, is like being convicted of murder.

所以，这些事情主要是在信息较少的地区通过的，比如印度的fMRI研究和意大利的战士基因研究。

So it's essentially in these, less informed areas where these things have passed, like the FMRI thing in India and this in in Italy, the warrior gene thing.

但这是危险的。

Well What But it's dangerous.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你要小心你所期望的东西，天啊。

I mean, you see, like, be careful what you wish for in terms of, wow.

如果人们能更多地了解科学，那会很好。

It'd be great if people learn more about science.

会失去更多。

Lose Way more.

一点科学知识。

Bit of science.

多得多得多。

Like, way way more.

那会很好。

That would be great.

是的。

Yes.

一点点这样的，对。

A little bit of this Yeah.

非常可怕。

Mighty scary.

我们看看。

Let's see.

我只是知道我需要

I'm just knowing I need to

对。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

现在是6:15。

It's 06:15.

在桌子上。

On the table.

我们是不是

Should we

该结束了？

should we wrap it up?

好的。

Sure.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

真的非常感谢。

Really, really appreciate it.

这是我的荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

我已经是你的粉丝很多年了。

I've been a fan of yours for years.

这对我来说真是莫大的荣幸。

This is a real treat for me.

我一直在期待这次见面。

I was really looking forward to to it.

真有趣。

Fun.

好了，各位。

Alright, everybody.

这一段很短，但非常精彩。

This is a short one, but an awesome one.

谢谢。

Thank you.