426. 性、死亡与讲故事 | 安德鲁·克拉万

而且能够做到这一点。

And being able to do that.

同时还要有能力承受冲突，尤其是当冲突源于情感因素时，这是一组非常矛盾的要求。

And also simultaneously having the wherewithal to withstand conflict, especially if it's generated on emotional grounds, that's a very contradictory set of demands.

我认为这在一定程度上解释了为什么人类需要双亲。

I think that's partly why human beings require two parents.

因为这实在太多了。

Because it's just too much.

我认为，对于一个人来说，要独自承担这种高强度的照料责任——尤其是在婴儿出生的第一年，特别是前六个月——同时还要有情感上的能力去实施必要的管教措施，这些措施无论多么短暂，都会带来一定的情感紧张，这实在太多了。

Well, it's just too much, I think, for one person to take primary responsibility for that intense care that characterizes especially the first year, but particularly the first six months, and then also to have the emotional capacity to start to implement necessary disciplinary procedures that, you know, result in some definite, some emotional tension, no matter how short term.

你需要一个男人和一个女人来相互平衡这些角色。

You need a man and a woman to play those things off one another.

哦，我认为这绝对是正确的。

Oh, I think that's definitely true.

是的。

Yeah.

而且还要去调和，我的意思是，仁慈与正义在人类世界中处处冲突，只有在上帝的头脑中才不冲突。

And also to work out, I mean, mercy and justice are in conflict everywhere but in the mind of god.

所以我认为，真的需要两个人才能将这些结合起来。

So I I think that it takes two people really to bring that together.

是的。

Yeah.

而且当我面对这些原型、面对这些既是故事又是幻想的叙事时，你必须记住道德之网，而道德之网是非常复杂的。

And I and I and it also means you're not just dealing when you're dealing with all these archetypes and when you're dealing with these fantasies that are stories and these stories that are fantasies, you have to remember the moral web and the moral web is a complex thing.

有些界限只有我们自己才能看见。

Things are borderlines that only we can see.

它们不是道路上的护栏。

They're not railings in the road.

它们是你必须能够说：我要坚守这个界限，并且我能界定它的东西。

They're things that you have to be able to say, I am going to stay within this borderline and I'm going to be able to define that.

比如，这就是为什么男人外出工作以支持家中的母亲，而母亲们并不总是了解男人为了做到这一点必须付出什么。

And that's one of the reasons, for instance, that men go out into the world to support the mothers at home and the mothers don't always know what the men have to do to get that done.

而男性必须做出这些极其艰难的决定。

And the men have to make those very difficult decisions.

我是否要忍受某个家伙的无理取闹，因为我需要钱？

Am I going to, you know, take this guff from some guy because I need the money?

我是否要做一件本不该做的事？

Am I going to do a job that I shouldn't do?

所有这些因素都会产生影响。

All of those things come into play.

而这，你知道，复杂性非常强烈，至少需要两个人才能应对。

And that's, you know, again, the complexity is intense and it definitely takes two people at least.

而且确实需要两个人

And it definitely takes two

至少是两种不同类型的人。

different At kinds of least.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yes.

找到自己的路。

Find their way.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

你谈到了仁慈与正义的相互作用。

You talked interplay of mercy and justice.

你知道，我认为这是对良知的一个很好的定义。

You know, I think that's a good definition of conscience.

良知是代表仁慈与正义之间相互作用的声音。

The conscience is the voice that signifies the interplay between mercy and justice.

你在菲利普·马洛这样的角色身上看到了这一点，对吧？

And you see this in characters like Philip Marlowe, right?

因为他们显然在不断执行正义。

Because they're obviously meeting out justice constantly.

而这正是他们角色魅力的一部分，尤其是当这种正义用于保护那位风尘女子免受邪恶迫害时。

And that's part of the attractiveness of their character, especially when it's devoted towards, you know, defending the femme fatale from some evil persecutor.

但他们总是以仁慈收场。

But they're always leaving that with mercy.

而这正是他们遵循良知指引的结果。

And it is as a consequence of following the dictates of their conscience.

马洛无疑是一个深受良知折磨的人。

And certainly Marlowe is a very conscience ridden creature.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

萨姆·斯佩德也是如此。

As is Sam Spade for that matter.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至詹姆斯·邦德，从更漫画化的角度来看也是如此。

And and even James Bond for on the more comic book end of things.

你知道，你刚才还提到了《绝命毒师》里的沃尔特·怀特，还有《黑道家族》里的人物，近年来我们也见证了漫威宇宙的崛起。

You know, you you were talking too about characters like breaking bad, guy in breaking bad, Walter White, and in The Sopranos, you know, and it's also been in recent years where we had the rise of the Marvel Universe.

托尼·斯塔克就是这种类型的绝佳例子，因为这家伙极度阳刚，几乎接近法西斯主义。

And Tony Stark is another good example of that sort of thing because, you know, that guy is so hyper masculine that he's damn near fascist.

有趣的是，首先，钢铁侠成为漫威电影宇宙中最突出的角色，而这在漫画世界里显然并非如此。

It was so interesting to see, first of all, that Iron Man was the Marvel character who rose to preeminence in the movie fictional universe because that certainly wasn't the case in the comic book world.

他原本只是一个次要的超级英雄。

He was kind of a minor superhero.

但托尼·斯塔克身上同样具备那种极度阳刚、近乎自恋的男性特质。

But Tony Stark had those same attributes of, you know, this sort of hyper masculine, almost narcissistic masculine element.

而且有趣的是，他最终在某种深刻层面上与浩克结成了同盟，对吧？

And it was also very interesting that he ended up allied in some profound way with the Hulk, right?

他们相互配合，而斯塔克是那个最有效地控制、应对并引导浩克的人。

That they played off each other and that Stark was the person who was also able to control and deal with and channel the Hulk in the most effective possible manner.

看着这一切发生，而整个文化却朝着过度女性化的方向发展，这非常有趣。

It's very interesting to watch all that unfold, you know, while the whole culture was spiraling off in the hyperfeminine direction.

我认为超级英雄是一个非常有趣的类型。

Well, I think I think the the superhero is a really interesting genre.

它一直让我感到困扰，因为它似乎是无性、无期限的故事讲述，也就是说，某种程度上缺乏人性。

It has always bothered me because it seems to be storytelling without sex indefinite, which means it's storytelling in some sense without the human without human nature in it.

让我担忧的是，我在所有类型中都看到了这种现象。

And what disturbs me about that is I see this across all genres.

我最在意的一件事之一，就是故事中女性殴打男性的情节。

One of the things one of my absolute hobby horses is women beating men up in stories.

每部电影里都有一个女人会打男人，然后男人翻滚着飞出门外，但现实中，女人打男人，她的手会断，接着男人会把她打得半死。

Every movie, there's a woman who's gonna punch a guy and he goes rolling ass over tea kettle out the door, which is not what happens when a woman punches a man, her hand breaks, and then he beats the crap out of her.

这是件危险的事。

That's a dangerous thing.

但这也在反映我们对人性的态度，随着技术的发展，我们正在远离人性，甚至走向一种超人性的状态。

But it's also saying something about our attitude to our humanity, our turning away from humanity as possibly hyper humanity through technology approaches.

我的意思是，当我年轻的时候，我们看的故事大多关于过去。

I mean, I think when I was young, you watched stories that were largely about the past.

我们看战争片和西部片，而当时的科幻作品非常罕见，但它也像是将过去投射到未来。

You watched war movies and cowboy movies, and the science fiction that we have is very rare, but it was also kind of a projection of the past into the future.

所以，即使我们面对怪物时，它们也极具人性。

So even when you dealt with monsters, they were very human.

它们是德古拉、狼人，以及所有那些东西。

They were Dracula, the werewolf, and all that.

而如今，我们看的电影和讲述的故事似乎都在展望一个非人性的未来。

Whereas now we're watching movies and telling stories that seem to look forward into an inhuman future.

让我困扰的是，我认为这实际上是真实的：没有性与死亡，或者超越性与死亡，仍然存在一个道德网络，我们仍需去应对它。

And what what bothers me about that is without because I think it's actually true, is that without sex and death or beyond sex and death, there's still going to be a moral web and we're still going to have to negotiate it.

然而，道德行为的直接惩罚、道德败坏带来的肉体后果将不复存在。

And yet the immediate punishments for immorality, the fleshly results of immorality are not going to exist anymore.

就像避孕措施一样，你可以把身体当作针垫，不怀孕，还能解决梅毒问题。

Just like with, for instance, birth control, you can treat your body like a pin cushion and not get pregnant and solve your syphilis problem.

但道德网络依然存在。

And yet the moral web is still in place.

你会因为不尊重自己而毁掉自己。

You will destroy yourself by treating yourself disrespectful.

好吧，我们往下说。

Well, let's walk down.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Well, absolutely.

让我们稍微深入探讨一下这条道路。

Let's walk down that road a little bit.

我的意思是，从深层次来看，你所描述的这些现象的一部分原因，就是女性扮演了原本属于男性的英雄角色，并被推向了极端，比如在超级英雄电影中，女性经常狠狠地揍男人，而正如你所说，这种情况在现实生活中几乎从不发生。

I mean, I think at a deep level, part of what you see part of the reason that you see the sorts of things that you're describing, which is women occupying the more masculine heroic role taken to the extreme in say these superhero movies where women are regularly beating the hell out of men, which as you said, virtually never happens in real life.

这与每日电讯报所做的一些事情有关，例如他们的纪录片质疑什么是女人。

And this sort of ties into some of the things that the Daily Wire has been doing, for example, with their documentary questioning what is a woman.

而且，你知道，这个问题很容易被当作讽刺，那部纪录片确实带有讽刺意味。

And, you know, it's easy for that to be a satirical question and that was a satirical documentary.

但其背后实际上存在着一些根本性的问题，因为事实是，随着避孕药的引入，'什么是女人'这个问题立即变得至关重要。

But there's actually something really fundamental going on at the base of that because the truth of the matter is that with the introduction of the birth control pill, the question what is a woman actually became immediately paramount.

而这一问题已经延续了多代人，因为在避孕药出现之前，男女之间最明显的区别就是其中一方是否容易怀孕。

And now that's been unfolding for multiple generations because the obvious distinction between the most obvious distinction between men and women prior to the pill was the ease with which one of them could get pregnant.

对一方来说是不可能的，而对另一方来说却非常容易。

And it was impossible for one of them and very easy for the other.

这显然是一个巨大的差异，也许是根本性的差异。

And that turned out to be a walloping difference and perhaps the cardinal difference.

我的意思是，女性的生物学定义，严格来说就是性繁殖过程中付出最多、投入最多资源的那一方。

I mean, the biological definition of female is literally that sex that gives up most in the process of sexual reproduction that devotes the most resources.

即使在精子和卵子的关系中，你也能看到这一点，我认为卵子所贡献的资源是单个精子的一千万倍。

And you see that even in the relationship between the sperm and the egg, I think the egg has 10,000,000 times the resources of a single sperm in terms of what it's donating to gamete.

就是类似这样的情况。

It's something like that.

因此，这种差异在男性与女性的二元对立中处处可见。

And so and that's echoed at every level of the dichotomy between masculine and feminine.

那么，什么是女人？

So what is a woman?

女人是为繁殖问题付出最多的性别。

A woman is the human sex that devotes most to the problems of reproduction.

所以这是一个很好的定义。

So that's a good definition.

但现在你用避孕药颠覆了这一点，对吧？

Now you upend that with the pill, right?

因为突然之间，这种差异在很大程度上被缓解了。

Because all of a sudden, that difference is ameliorated to some substantial degree.

你的观点是，这并没有改变底层的道德格局，而是部分改变了它，对吧？因为通奸——姑且用这个过时的词来形容随意性行为——的直接后果显然被缓解了。

Now your point is that doesn't change the underlying moral landscape as well, it changes it somewhat, right, because the immediate consequences for for fornication, let's say to use an archaic term for sleeping around, the immediate consequences are clearly ameliorated.

这就让我们不禁思考，20世纪60年代在某种程度上是一场实验。

And that leaves us to wonder, well, you know, the whole 1960s was an experiment in some ways.

就像是这样。

It's like, all right.

性行为现在变得没有后果了，或者我们曾这么以为。

Sex has now become consequence free, or so we thought.

那为什么不是呢？

Well, then why isn't?

为什么不举办一场无尽的狂欢派对呢？

Why not have an endless orgiastic party?

这其实是个真实的问题，因为这么做的理由很明确。

And that's actually a real question because the reason to do it is clear.

而不这么做的理由却变得模糊了。

And the reasons not to do it have become murky.

而艾滋病迅速终结了这个疯狂的幻想。

Well, AIDS put the paid to that demented dream quite rapidly.

但还有更微妙的事情，对吧？

But but then there were more subtle things, right?

其中一件微妙的事情是，好吧。

And one of the subtle things is, well, okay.

为什么女人不行？

Why isn't a woman?

为什么女人现在不能完全取代男人？

Why can't a woman just replace a man now entirely?

我们该如何发现这方面的界限？

And how do we discover the limits to that?

我看到一些界限正在出现。

I see some limits emerging.

我的意思是，我们现在知道，例如，现在有一半的30岁女性没有孩子，实际上甚至超过一半。

I mean, we now know, for example, that half of 30 year old women now don't have a child, half of it's more than half actually.

她们中有一半将永远不会生育孩子。

Half of them will never have a child.

而其中90%的人会为此感到后悔。

And 90% of them will regret that.

因此，即使我们在20多岁时消除男女之间的差异——正如童年时期男孩和女孩的差异很小，与青少年时期的男女差异相比——即使我们在20多岁时实现了男女平等，这绝不意味着我们在30多岁时也能实现平等。

And so even if we push, even if we erase in our 20s, the difference between men and women, as the difference is erased in childhood, because boys and girls are quite similar compared to say, teenage boys and teenage girls, Even if we equilibrate men and women in their 20s, that certainly doesn't mean we equilibrate them in their 30s.

我认为，如果你消除了不良行为的直接身体后果，它是否就不再是不良行为，这是一个悬而未决的问题。

I think it's an open question whether if you remove the immediate physical consequences of a bad act, it ceases to be a bad act.

我认为，这正是你目前面临的关键问题。

I think that this is the key question that you're facing right now.

你知道，在《真理与美》一书中，我写了一章关于《弗兰肯斯坦》的内容，其中我提出论点：创造怪物的弗兰肯斯坦博士，并没有像玛丽·雪莱所暗示的那样，侵犯了上帝的特权。

You know, in in the truth and beauty, write a chapter on Frankenstein in which I make the argument that Frankenstein, the doctor Frankenstein who creates this monster has not violated, as Mary Shelley did, has not violated God's prerogative.

他侵犯的是女性的特权。

He's violated a woman's prerogative.

他创造了一个我们所有人都会创造的生命体。

He's created a being, which we all do.

每一个生下孩子的人，都在创造一个生命，但他却在没有母亲的情况下创造了它。

We all anyone who has a child has created a living being, but he creates it without a mother.

如果你以这种方式阅读《弗兰肯斯坦》，你就会开始意识到，科学与幻想从一开始就试图解决女性的问题，以及她们所带来的后果——这一后果深刻影响了我们最根本的生理愉悦。

And if you read Frankenstein in that way, you begin to see that science has science and fantasy at the beginning have been trying to solve the problem of women and the fact that they create a consequence, a deep consequence to our chief physical pleasure.

自科学存在以来，实际上自想象力诞生以来，人们就一直在试图解决这个问题。

They've been trying to solve that since science, existed and really since imagination existed.

我的意思是，卖淫在某种程度上也是试图解决这一问题的一种方式。

I mean, prostitution in some ways is a way of trying to solve that problem as well.

我相信，如今对男性的攻击其实并不是真正针对男性。

And I believe that the attacks on men now are not really attacks on men.

我认为，这些攻击实际上是想把男性清除出去，以便女性能够不再作为女性，而真正成为男性。

What I think they are is trying to clear men out of the way so that women can cease being women and can actually become men as well.

因为女性所做的是提出这样一个问题。

Because what women do is they raise this question.

我们仅仅是肉体的存在吗？

Are we purely physical beings?

如果你能消除一项恶行的肉体后果，它就不再算是恶行了吗？

If you can remove the physical consequences of a bad act, does it cease to be bad?

我们内心是否有什么东西？

Is there something within us?

我显然是个基督徒，我相信是有的。

And I obviously I'm a Christian and I believe there is.

我们内心是否有什么东西会因不道德的行为而受损？

Is there something within us that is damaged by immoral action?

好吧。

Well, okay.

证据似乎表明确实如此。

Evidence seems to be that there is actually.

嗯，实际上，关于这一点的证据是明确的。

Well, well, actually, the evidence of on with regard to that is clear.

那让我来梳理一下。

So so let let me lay it out.

临床证据是明确的。

This the the clinical evidence is clear.

好的。

Okay.

让我们深入探讨一下生物学层面，来理清这个问题。

So let's go down deep into the biological for a minute to sort that out.

好的，性繁殖生物主要有两种基本的繁殖策略。

Okay, so there's two fundamental strategies of reproduction among sexually reproducing creatures.

一种是零亲代投入策略。

There's the zero parental investment strategy.

另一种是高度亲代投入策略，两者处于两端。

And there's the profound parental investment strategy on the two ends.

鱼类和蚊子总体上属于零投入的一端。

So fish and mosquitoes by and large are on the zero investment end.

它们投入的只是精子和卵子，仅此而已。

What they invest is sperm and egg and that's pretty much it.

这些生物的应对方式是产生数万甚至数十万的自身副本，然后任其自生自灭，其中绝大多数都会死亡。

And so and what the way those organisms manage that is they produce 10s of 1000s or 100s of 1000s of copies of themselves, and leave them to their own devices, and almost all of them perish.

但‘几乎’不等于‘全部’。

But almost isn't the same as all.

如果你生了十万后代，只有一个存活，你就成功实现了繁衍。

And if you produce 100,000 offspring and only one survives, you're successful in replication.

而在光谱的另一端，人类恰恰如此，因为我们的后代具有最长的依赖期，远超其他灵长类近亲。

Okay, on exactly the other end of the spectrum are human beings, Because our offspring have the longest dependency period, period by a long margin, even compared to our immediate primate cousins.

这在一定程度上是我们大脑皮层快速或相对巨大扩张，以及需要广泛社会化所带来的后果。

And that's partly a consequence of our rapid or comparatively massive cortical expansion and the need for extensive socialization.

我们是一种高投入的物种。

We're a high investment species.

好的，现在让我们来看看人类在繁衍态度上的分布。

Okay, so now let's look within the realm of human attitudes towards reproduction.

这种分布是存在的。

There's a distribution.

有些人像蚊子一样采取短期交配策略。

There are those who engage like mosquitoes in short term mating strategies.

还有那些倾向于长期配对结合式交配策略的人。

And there are those who engage preferentially in long term pair bonded mating strategies.

那么，我们可以问自己，与这种策略相关的个性特征是什么？

Okay, now we could ask ourselves, what are the personality characteristics that go along with that?

嗯，临床文献和人格研究都给出了明确的答案。

Well, the clinical literature and the personality literature are clear.

以下是预测短期交配策略偏好的因素。

Here are the predictors of short term mating strategy preference.

早期犯罪行为、家族反社会行为史、精神病态、自恋、马基雅维利主义和施虐倾向。

Early onset criminality, familial history of antisocial behavior, psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sadism.

对。

Right.

而且情况还更糟。

And so and it's worse than that.

这些因素不仅预测了对短期交配、一夜情，或者说在没有关系前提下仅为愉悦而发生性行为的倾向和偏好。

Not only do those predict the proclivity and preference for short term mating, one night stands, let's say sex only for pleasure in the absence of a relationship.

而且，实践这种行为也会培养出这些人格特征。

It's also the case that practicing that produces those personality characteristics.

你可以理解其中的原因。

And you could see why.

因为如果目标是将一切事物，包括任何关系的可能性，都服从于单纯的性愉悦，那么你就是在将他人当作满足愉悦的工具，同时也在将自己当作工具。

Because if the goal is that you're going to subordinate all things, including the possibility of any relationship whatsoever to mere sexual pleasure, you're now using the other person as an object for pleasure, but you're also using yourself.

你也在训练自己进入一种精神病态的状态。

You're also training yourself in a form of psychopathy.

因此，我认为这根本不存在争议。

And so I don't even think this is debatable.

我认为这方面的证据早已明确，三十多年来我一直知道，青少年犯罪倾向的最佳预测因素之一就是早期且频繁的性经历。

I think the evidence for this is like I've known for thirty five years, that one of the best predictors of criminal proclivity among teenagers is early, early and frequent sexual experience.

这一点早已为人所知，久远得无法追溯。

That's been known forever, forever.

在犯罪学领域，没有人对此有争议。

No one debates it in the in the criminology domain.

在人格特质方面，黑暗三联征——施虐狂、精神病态、马基雅维利主义和自恋——也是如此。

And the same is exactly true in personality with regards to these dark, you know, sadism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism and narcissism.

所以，对于所有正在听的女性，男性也是如此，如果你和一个男人出去，他的态度是：‘来吧，宝贝，我们上床吧。’

So for all the women who are listening, men too, for that matter, if you're out with a guy and his orientation is, you know, let's get it on, babe.

这是一夜情。

It's one night stand.

没有什么比这更能可靠地表明他那不可驯服的、原始的、邪恶的本性了。

There's no more reliable marker of his untamable, primordial, malevolent beastliness than that.

对吧？

Right?

这一点根本不存在争议。

And there's not a debate about that.

这在某种程度上把我们带回了起点。

And it brings us back to where we started in a way.

我的意思是，我们在这个科学时代面临的困境是：你能否在不解决人类本身、不消灭人类的情况下，解决作为人类的问题？因为所有我们所钦佩的品质，本质上都很原始，但在文明社会中，必须以文明的方式加以维持。

I mean, is the conundrum we're faced with in this scientific moment is can you solve the problems of being a human being without solving human beings, without getting rid of human beings Because all of the things that we admire are very basic and yet in a civilized society have to be maintained in a civilized way.

因此，这在我看来是我们正在审视的核心问题。

And so this is to me the essential question we're looking at.

你知道，我们谈论什么是女人，这是一个很好的问题，但什么是人类，以及我们究竟从何谈起，在我看来，我们甚至无从开始。

You know, we talk about what is a woman, which is an excellent question, but what is a human being and what exactly we can't even begin, in my opinion.

在我看来，我们正处在一个巨大的转型时刻。

In my opinion, we're in this moment of great transition.

不仅我的一代正在离去，各种世界秩序也正在消逝，一个新的时代正在来临。

Not only is my generation passing away, but all kinds of world orders are passing away, and and a new age is is ushered is coming in.

我们被要求必须从这个问题开始：我们究竟想为谁服务？

And we're asked we have to start with this question is, who are we trying to serve?

我们试图围绕什么样的生物来构建政府、通信和信息渠道？

What is the the creature that we're trying to build governments around, that we're trying to build communications around, that we're trying to build avenues of information around?

我认为这个问题被问得还不够多。

And I don't think the question is asked often enough.

你看到的是顶层的人们在达沃斯试图用宏大而美好的想法来解决问题。

What you have is the people at the top trying to solve problems with great big wonderful ideas in Davos.

他们将推动大重置之类的举措。

They're going to have the great reset and so on.

而底层的人则只是说：别管我，让我做我想做的事。

And then you have the people on the bottom who are just saying, leave me alone, and let me do what I wanna do.

显然，在这两者之间，存在着美国开国先贤最初提出的理念：人究竟是什么？

And obviously somewhere between those people is the idea that that kind of the American founders started started out with is what are people?

他们做对了什么？

What do they do right?

他们做错了什么？

What do they do wrong?

我们不仅要控制人民，还要控制那些控制人民的人？

And how do we not only control the people, but how do we control the people who control the people?

我认为我们又回到了这些问题上。

And I think we're back to those questions again.

我担心的不是科学的世界观，而是科学主义的世界观，它让我们忽视了人的一些本质，而这些本质可能是难以言喻的。

And and I fear that these not the scientific worldview, but the scientistic worldview blinds us to certain things that people are and that may be ineffable.

我认为一切都有其物理对应物，但这并不意味着那就是它的原因。

I think everything has physical analog, but it doesn't mean that that's its cause.

比如，当我们用药物治疗抑郁症患者，他们感觉更快乐了，他们真的更快乐了吗？

You see this in for instance when we drug people for depression and they feel happier, are they happier?

我认为很多患者并没有真正变快乐，这一点可以从我们有了抑郁症药物，但抑郁症却仍在蔓延这一事实中看出。

And I think a lot of them are not as shown by the fact that we now have a medicine for depression and yet depression is spreading.

当我们有了治疗小儿麻痹症的药物，小儿麻痹症就减少了。

When you have a medicine for polio, polio goes down.

当我们有了治疗抑郁症的药物，抑郁症却反而蔓延了。

When you have a medicine for depression, it spreads.

我认为这是因为我们实际上并没有真正治疗抑郁症。

And I think that's because we're not actually treating the depression.

我认为大多数心理学家现在都认同这一点。

I think most I think most psychologists now agree with that.

好吧，某种程度上，我们一直在回避一个问题，那就是：什么定义了男人、女人或人类的界限？这实际上是一个关于限制和界定的问题。

Well, you know, one of the things that we're skirting around in some sense is the question of what limitations, like the question of what defines a man or a woman or a human being is actually a question in some sense of boundaries and defining limitations.

对。

Right.

现在，我最近一直在思考的一个观点是，死亡让事物变得真实。

Right now, one of the ideas I've been wrestling with recently is that death makes things real.

你知道，其中一个根本的哲学问题是：究竟什么才算是真实？

You know, because one one fundamental philosophical question is, well, what does it mean for something to be real?

在我看来，真实的标志就是死亡，即存在的有限性。

And it seems to me that the hallmark of the real is is death is the finitude of existence.

有些东西如此真实，以至于你一旦遭遇它，就会丧命。

Something can be so real that if you encounter it, it kills you.

如果这是真的，如果死亡的有限性定义了现实，那我们来深入探讨一下。

And then if that's true, if if mortal limitation defines reality, it makes us let's walk through that.

威胁你生命的事务，是严肃的吗？

Is something that threatens you with death serious?

是的。

Well, yes.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

死亡可能并不是最严肃的现实，因为我认为你可以论证，威胁到你灵魂的东西比威胁到你生命的东西更真实。

Death now it might not be the most serious reality because I think you could make a case that something that threatens your soul is more real than something that threatens your life.

我认为，如果人们理解了这一区别，他们会宁愿牺牲生命来拯救灵魂。

And I think if people understood that distinction, they would sacrifice their life to save their soul.

所以这是我们值得讨论的一个话题。

So that's something we could talk about.

但无论如何，这个论证的逻辑依赖于接受这样一个命题：我们最重视的东西，就是我们认为最真实的东西。而那些威胁我们生命的事物，我们确实视为最严肃的，因此，它们帮助我们定义了什么是真实。

But any case, the logic of the argument depends on accepting the proposition that what we take most seriously is what we regard as most real and certainly those things that threaten us with death, we regard as most serious and, and therefore, are those things that help us define what is real.

我不知道我们是否能超越我们凡俗的脆弱性，这是超人类主义者的梦想。

I don't know if we transcended our mortal vulnerability, which is the dream of the transhumanists.

在我看来，我们不会解决死亡的问题，反而会用一种没有灵魂的存在来取代生命本身。

It seems to me that we would, instead of solving the problem of mortality, I think we would substitute a kind of soulless existence for life itself.

差不多就是这样，你知道，你可能会说，如果你现在不会死了，如果你已经成为一个永生的存在——这本质上正是我们努力战胜疾病和脆弱所追求的目标——那你还是人吗？

It's something like that, you know, because you might say, Well, if you now can't be killed, If you're now an immortal creature, which in principle is the aim of, you know, of all of our striving to overcome our illnesses and our subjection to weakness, like are you?

你身上还有什么属于人性的东西吗？

Is there anything in you that's now human?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这绝对正确。

I I think this is absolutely true.

死亡不仅让事物变得真实，它实际上赋予了我们意义。

And that death not only makes things real, it actually gives us meaning.

你知道，诗人约翰·济慈说，生命是灵魂塑造的面纱。

You know, the the poet John Keats said that life was the veil of soul making.

我认为之所以它是灵魂塑造的面纱，是因为死亡赋予了一切意义，我认为所有的意义都源于死亡。

And and I think that the reason it's the veil of soul making is is death gives everything all meaning, I think, comes from death.

甚至爱的瞬间，它之所以珍贵，正是因为它的短暂。

Even the moment of love, the fact that it's precious, the fact that it passes.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

每个时刻都会流逝，这正是赋予它紧迫感和重要性的原因。

The fact that every moment passes is what gives it such urgency and importance.

我听过一种反对基督教、反对基督教永恒观念的论点，那就是意义从何而来？

And one of the arguments I've heard against Christianity, against the Christian idea of eternity, is that where will the meaning come from?

我认为这显然是一个可以解决的问题，但如今我们讨论的是死亡赋予生命意义，而正是在死亡中，我们找到了生命的意义。

I think that's a solvable issue obviously, but still here now we are dealing it death that gives our life meaning and is death in which we find the meaning of life.

那就不会有目的。

There would be no purpose.

我相信，如果我们没有死亡，如果真的消除了死亡，我们会陷入类似《时间机器》结尾的场景：人们无所事事地坐着，随波逐流。

I believe that if we had no death, if we actually eradicated that, we'd get something like the end of the time machine where those people are sitting around doing absolutely nothing and just kind of floating downstream.

这看起来像天堂，但实际上是地狱。

And it looks like paradise, but in fact it's hell.

我觉得，这些超级英雄电影让我如此不安的地方在于，当你剥夺了让我们成为人类的特质——死亡与性、爱欲与死亡，你就同时剥夺了人类存在的意义，留给我们几乎一无所有。

I think that thing that disturbs me so much about these superhero movies is really when you take away the traits that make us human, death and sex, eros and thanatos, you've taken away the meaning of being human as well, and you leave us with virtually nothing.

一些超人类主义者甚至变成了对死亡的崇拜者，因为他们谈论的是，当人类消失时，那将会多么美好。

And some of these transhumanists also become death worshipers because what they talk about is it's it's it'll be great when human beings are gone.

是时候让这些血肉之躯滚蛋了，把一切留给人工智能。

It's time for these these meat sacks to get out of here and and leave everything to AI.

有些人相信，人工智能比我们更重要。

There are people who believe that AI is more important than we are.

对我来说，这始终是个问题：为什么？

And for me, it's always the question of why?

人工智能拥有什么意识？

What consciousness does AI have?

人工智能有什么珍贵之处？

What is precious about AI?

我们之所以珍贵，恰恰因为我们终有一死，恰恰因为此刻——我所经历的内在生命，以及你必须假定我也拥有的这种生命，因为你也拥有自己的内在生命——所有的意义都存在于这里，而你的生命是如此紧迫而神圣。

We're the ones who are precious precisely because we die, precisely because this moment this internal life that I lead and that you have to assume I lead because you lead one too, that's where all of the meaning exists and the fact of your life is so urgent and sacred.

嗯，对，对。

Well, right, right.

嗯，紧迫感与神圣性之间的关系确实非常紧密。

Well, the relationship between urgency and the sacred is definitely It's a very close relationship.

如果你拥有无限的时间，那么立即出现的问题就是：为什么现在要做任何事？

And if you have infinite time, the question that immediately arises is then why anything now?

对吧？

Right?

我认为，某种程度上，这甚至可以说是富足和财富的诅咒之一，尤其是当这些财富是不劳而获的时候。

And I think that's actually in some ways, you might say even that that's one of the curses of plenitude and wealth even especially if it's unearned.

那么，究竟还需要多少紧迫感才能推动你以有意义的方式前进呢？

It's like, well, how much urgency does there have to be to drive you forward in a meaningful fashion?

你可以从色情制品的影响这个角度来思考这个问题。

You can you can think about this in terms, for example, of the effects of pornography.

你知道，年轻人现在比以前更不容易建立亲密关系了。

You know, we know that young people are much less likely to couple than they were.

这一点在日本和韩国尤为明显，我认为那里的年轻人中有大约三分之一在30岁时仍是处男处女。

This is particularly pronounced in places like Japan and South Korea, where I think it's about one third of the young people there 30 are virginal.

你可能会问自己一个问题：男女之间那种充满矛盾却必要的长期关系，在多大程度上是由性方面的紧迫感和稀缺性所驱动的呢？

And one of the questions you might ask yourself is, well, how much is the fractious but necessary long term relationship making between men and women driven by by what by sexual urgency and scarcity.

对吧？

Right?

你说你也看到了同样的情况。

And you say you see the same thing.

如果你经济状况尚可，同样的困境也会出现在你对孩子的问题上：既然你有能力为他们提供一切，那该如何给予他们适度的匮乏呢？否则，你就成了那种‘无限的母亲’，因为给予太多关爱，反而摧毁了他们的灵魂，让他们完全失去起身行动的理由。

If you're reasonably well off financially, the same conundrum emerges with regards to your children, which is, well, how do you provide them with optimal deprivation, given that you could provide everything for them, in which case you become something like the, you know, the infinite mother that destroys their souls by providing them with so much care that there's absolutely no reason for them to ever get up and do anything.

我认为，整个时代的关键就在于此。

That's that's what I think this whole moment in history is about.

我们的确似乎正站在解决众多问题的边缘，但当你解决了问题，

I mean, we do seem to be on the verge of solving so many problems, and yet you solve the problem.

解决方案本身在某种程度上就成了问题，而选择的自由、选择的无限性，以及选择后果的减弱，实际上正威胁着要剥夺那些本应做出选择的人类存在的意义。

The solution is in some ways the problem, and the idea of choice and the vastness of our choices and the lessening of the consequences of our choices actually threatens to strip us of the human being for whom those choices are made.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这就是为什么我们必须回归到那些关于“我们是谁、我们是什么”的真正亚里士多德式问题。

And think that's why the actual we have to return to those actual Aristotelian questions of who we are, what we are.

在这个我们似乎即将探索太空、深入内在空间、能够克隆人类、让人永生的时代，谈论这些话题显得很奇怪。

It's a weird thing to be talking about in this moment when it seems like we're going to travel into space, we're gonna travel into inner space, we can clone people, we can make people live forever.

但对我来说，这才是紧迫的问题，也正是为什么在这样一个高度现代的时刻，古人比以往任何时候都更重要。

But to me, it's the urgent question, and it's why the ancients matter more than ever this hyper modern moment.

我们真的正站在一个十字路口。

We really are reaching a branch in the road.

我觉得每个人都能感受到它即将到来，而听到我们的领导人仍用这些过时的言辞谈论他们将如何为我们解决问题，却完全不考虑我们是谁、领导者对我们的幸福所负的责任，以及如何为我们创造实现幸福的条件——而幸福最终只能靠我们自己去寻找——这令人沮丧。

I think everybody can feel it coming, and it's dispiriting to hear our leaders talking in these old fashioned terms about what they're going to do and how they're going to solve our problems for us without really taking into account who we are and the responsibility of leaders to our happiness and to make our happiness possible and to make it possible for us to find our happiness, which we can only do on our own.

我认为，这正是我们必须以同情心看待我们中最弱势群体的原因所在。

This is something I think that makes it so important that we look upon the least of us with compassion.

这就是为什么你要以同情心看待我们中最弱势的群体，因为他们就是我们。

This is why you look upon the least of us with compassion, because they're us.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

最终，如果我们无法弄清楚这一点，就无法真正理解我们自己。令人惊讶的是，最近一些比这一代年长的人——我在十月七日以色列遭袭后，听到一位哥伦比亚大学的女生庆祝以色列的屠杀，并引用了毛泽东的话。

In the end, if we can't figure that out, we can't figure ourselves It really is it is amazing that people who are somewhat older than this generation recently I heard somebody after the October seventh attacks on Israel, I heard a Columbia student, a woman, celebrating the slaughter in Israel and quoting chairman Mao.

我当时想：嗯。

And I thought Mhmm.

毛泽东是人类历史上最严重的屠杀者。

Chairman Mao was the worst mass murderer in human history.

我认为没有人能像毛泽东那样造成如此庞大的死亡人数。

I don't think anyone has ever racked up the body count that, chairman Mao has racked up.

而这种无知所带来的后果。

And the ignorance that that entails.

这种无知蔓延至对莎士比亚、柏拉图和《圣经》的无知。

And the ignorance that entails spreads out to an ignorance of Shakespeare, of Plato, of the bible.

如果你把毛泽东当作道德上的权威来引用，那你必须彻底无知。

You have to be totally ignorant in order to be quoting Chairman Mao as if he mattered, morally.

因此，我认为我们正处在一个时刻：未来主义让人觉得，我们身后积累的所有智慧都变得毫无意义。

And so I I think that we've come to this moment when futurism makes it seem as if all of the wisdom that was piled up behind us is meaningless.

他们懂什么？

What did they know?

他们甚至不知道是太阳绕着地球转，还是地球绕着太阳转。

They didn't even know whether the sun goes around the earth or vice versa.

事实上，他们懂得所有真正重要的东西，因为他们处理的是更基本的生活问题。

When in fact they knew all the things that mattered because they were dealing with life at a much more basic level.

如果没有这种基本的理解，未来将是一场灾难。

And without that basic understanding, the future is going to be a disaster.

因此，在诺亚的故事中有一个与此相关的场景。

So there's a scene in the story of Noah that's apropos in that regard.

诺亚被描述为一个在他所处世代中智慧的人，对吧？

So Noah is presented as a man wise in his generations, right?

这意味着，对于他那个时代和地方的人来说，他在道德上是正直的，而这正是我们所有人——即使在最好的情况下，也只有极少数例外——所能被要求和期待的。

So which means that for a man of his time and place, he was properly morally oriented, which is all that can be required, expected even in the best possible case of any of us with like vanishingly few exceptions.

所以他是个好人。

So he's a good man.

他倾听良知的警告，带领他的家人，乃至整个人类，穿越了一场彻底的血腥灾难，最终幸存下来，这在某种程度上正是我们每一个成功的祖先所做到的——成功应对生活中的种种起伏，留下后代，并确保这些后代真正存活下来。

And he attends to the warnings of his conscience and he shepherds his family and the human race for that matter through a complete bloody catastrophe, comes out on the other side, which in some ways is what every single one of our successful ancestors did, right, to manage to negotiate through life with all its vicissitudes and leave progeny behind and leave behind the progeny who actually survived.

这几乎是不可能的。

It's so unlikely.

因此，我们的所有祖先在某种程度上都是诺亚。

So all of our ancestors are Noah to some degree.

当他漂到岸边、洪水退去后，他种下了一片葡萄园，然后在酒酿好后，彻底醉得不省人事。

Now, after he washes up on shore and the flood recedes, he plants a vineyard and proceeds to get rip roaring drunk on the consequences, once it's all brewed up.

他躺在帐篷里，赤身裸体，他的儿子含走过来，开心地嘲笑这位老人，对吧？

And he's lying in his tent, nakedness fully exposed and his son Ham comes along and has a pretty good time poking fun at the old man, right?

然后他决定拉上兄弟们一起参与这个笑话，叫他们来看一眼，但兄弟们没有以轻蔑的态度对待父亲，而是倒退着进帐篷，用毯子把他盖了起来。

And then he decides to get his brothers in on the joke and he invites them to come and have a gander and instead of acting in a manner that's derisive toward their father, they back into the tent and they cover him up with a blanket.

于是，但故事到这里变得严肃了，因为围绕这个故事的传统非常明确。

And so and then but this is where the story gets serious, because the tradition that surrounds that story is quite clear.

含的后代将成为奴隶。

The descendants of Ham are slaves.

对吧？

Right?

所以在我看来，这意味着——我认为这是完全正确的。

And so what that means, as far as I'm concerned, and I think this is dead right.

这与你刚才说的有关：你若以道德优越的姿态嘲讽过去，将面临巨大的危险。

And it's relevant to what you were saying is that you adopt a pose of moral superiority, derisive moral superiority to the past at your immense peril.

因为如果你愚蠢到认为，比如在你惊人的无知和道德优越感下，毛泽东是个榜样，那你最终沦为奴隶的概率就是100%。

Because if you're foolish enough to presume that, for example, in your stunning ignorance and moral superiority, that Chairman Mao is a model, the probability that you're going to end up as a slave is 100%.

你已经沦为这种意识形态的奴隶。

You're already a slave to the ideology.

你知道，这仅仅是因为

You know, it's only by

我得跟你讲一个我好莱坞时期的故事，因为他们把诺亚的故事拍成了一部由罗素·克劳主演的史诗大片，完全改变了上帝的动机。

I I have to tell you a wonderful story from my Hollywood days because they made the the Noah story into a movie with Russell Crowe, a big epic movie, and they completely changed God's motive.

作为好莱坞，他们彻底改变了上帝毁灭世界的原因，从罪恶变成了不够环保，也就是说他们不够‘绿色’。

Being Hollywood, they completely changed God's motive for destroying the world from sinfulness to being not environmental enough so that they weren't being green enough.

这倒也不奇怪。

So That figures.

但据制片人说，福音派人士抱怨的是，电影中展现了诺亚醉酒的情节。

But but according to the producers, what the evangelicals complained about was that they showed Noah getting drunk.

好莱坞制片人不得不向宗教基督徒解释：不，这其实是有圣经依据的。

And the boy, Hollywood producers were left explaining to the religious Christians that, no, that was actually scriptural.

这确实记载在《圣经》里。

That was actually in the Bible.

因此，任何形式的虔诚实际上都是让我们忽视人类本性的手段——无论是他们的善良还是邪恶。

So piety of any kind is actually a way of blinding ourselves to what human beings are in both their decency and their wickedness.

我真的认为，尤其是科学时代开始以来，一直存在这样一种观念：你可以找到支配人类行为的单一根本动机。

And I actually think that this I I believe, you know, there's always been especially in the once the age of science begins, there's always been this idea that you can find a single governing motivation for human behavior.

于是你有了弗洛伊德的权力观，没错。

So you have Freud with powers and yeah.

以及权力和异化。

And power and alienation.

但我认为，我们完全遗忘了一个动机：那就是向自己和他人展现道德高尚的动机。

But I think one motivation that we completely forget about is the motivation to appear virtuous to oneself and others.

我认为，对我们自身残缺本质的认知，对我们真实面貌的认知，对太多人来说是难以承受的。

And I think that the knowledge of our brokenness, the knowledge of what we really are is just intolerable to so many people.

正是这种认知，导致了那些对身边人漠不关心的虔诚基督徒，以及那些认为自己做决定没问题的达沃斯人士。

And it's that that I think causes you to have both the pious Christian who couldn't care less about the person next to him and the guy in Davos who thinks he's gonna it's fine for him to make decisions.

好吧。

Okay.

嗯，我认为你正好点出了一个至关重要的问题。

Well, you put your finger on something absolutely crucial there, I think.

因此，我最近尤其在过去一个月里深入探索的一个主题，是圣经诫命与福音诫命之间的交集。

So one of the things I've been exploring really in-depth, especially in the last month, is the intersection between a biblical injunction and a gospel injunction.

圣经诫命是：不可妄称主的名。

So the biblical injunction is do not use the Lord's name in vain.

人们以为这意思是不要骂人。

Now people think that means don't swear.

但这并不是它的本意。

And that isn't what it means.

它可能在某些边缘意义上包含这个意思，但本质上它是对随意使用上帝之名的警告。

It isn't what it might mean that in some peripheral sense, because it is a warning against the careless use of God's name.

但它真正的意思是：不要将道德上的崇高美德，强加于明显是自私自利的行为上。

But what it really means is do not claim moral virtue, especially of the highest sort, for acts that are clearly self serving.

而没有什么行为比自恋的行为更自私了。

Now, there's no more self serving act than one that's narcissistic.

而根据定义，自恋者是因为自恋是自我服务的核心。

And a narc by definition, because narcissism is the core of self serving.

好的，所以自恋行为是一种虚假地提升我道德美德的行为。

Okay, so a narcissistic act is one that elevates my moral virtue falsely.

好的，那么想象一下，这种罪恶的极致就是，我声称我的自恋动机实际上是出于最高尚的动机。

Okay, so now then imagine the worst extent of that sin is for me to claim that my narcissistic motivations are actually done in the name of what's highest.

对于极权主义的宗教狂热者来说，这指的是上帝。

And that would be God in the case of the totalitarian religious zealot.

而对于现代左倾无神论者而言，这则是同情心——你知道，他们基本上已经把仁慈女神当作自己潜意识中的神。

And it would be compassion in the case of the modern left leaning atheist who, you know, has basically made the goddess of mercy his or her unconscious God.

好的，因此我可以宣称虚假的道德优越性。

Okay, so now I can claim false moral virtue.

我可以不付出相称的努力就提升自己的社会地位和自我评价，甚至可以规避你刚才描述的所有问题——即真正面对自己深层的错位与罪恶。

And I can elevate my social status and my self regard without commensurate effort, especially and I can circumvent all the problems you just described, which is actually contending with the depth of my genuine misalignment and sin.

好的，这在福音书中也有体现，比如基督特别针对法利赛人，称他们为伪君子。

Okay, now that's echoed in the Gospels like Christ goes after the Pharisees in particular, particular as hypocrites.

所以他们就是你刚才描述的那种宗教人士，那些炫耀自己道德优越感的人。

And so they're the religious types that you just described, the ones that parade their moral virtue.

他们和那些血腥的现代抗议者其实是一样的。

They're the same as the bloody modern protesters too.

但那些虚伪的、口口声声说福音却从不犯错的福音派，以及伊斯兰世界中的狂热分子，都属于同一类人。

But the but the false butter won't melt in their mouth evangelical types and the zealots in the Islamic world, they're all of the same type.

他们攫取这种未经earned的道德优越感，自诩为上帝的信徒，利用基督指责他们在市场上祷告的行为——这与抗议以提升社会地位毫无二致，从而在人前博取好名声，基督也曾警告过这种行为，并且他们还妄图占据会堂里的最高席位。

They take this unearned moral virtue, they're acolytes of God, and they use that Christ accuses their praying in the marketplace, which is no different than protesting to elevate their social status so that they have good reputation among men, which he also warns about and so that they can occupy the highest seats in the synagogue.

因此，这是一种可怕的罪，而正是对这种罪的反抗，导致了基督被钉上十字架。

And so there's this terrible sin, and it's opposition to that sin that gets Christ crucified.

对吧？

Right?

因为基督真正树敌的是法利赛人，他对他们说，他们把人的教条当作上帝的诫命来敬拜，而这些人正是那些会杀害他们声称敬仰的先知的人。

Because it's the pharisees he really makes enemies of and he says to them, he says they worship the dogma of men as if it's the commandments of God, and that they are the same people that would have killed the prophets whose words they purport to worship.

就像基督对他们提出的那些尖锐批评一样。

Like their vicious criticisms being put forward by Christ.

他把法利赛人变成了可怕的敌人。

He makes terrible enemies out of the Pharisees.

但他所抨击的，正是我们在达沃斯看到的。

But what he is calling out is exactly what we see at Davos.

完全就是如此。

It's exactly that.

这种假设认为，仅仅拥有意识形态的纯洁性并声称服务于更高力量——比如‘我在拯救地球’——就足以冒充真正的道德努力，而实际上，真正的道德努力是背起你自己的该死的十字架。

This presumption that mere ideological purity and the claim to serve a higher power, I'm saving the planet is sufficient to pass for genuine, the genuine moral effort of hoisting your own goddamn cross as it it turns out in a more fundamental sense.

对吧？

Right?

这是一种对真正道德努力的替代。

It's a substitute for true moral effort.

没错。

That's it's it's true.

这让我们回到了那个观点：有时，解决问题的方法本身正是问题所在。

And it brings us back to to the idea about sometimes solving the problem is the problem.

启蒙运动的一个美妙之处在于，它为我们提供了诸多制度，这些制度能够将人类的缺陷转化为全体福祉。

One of the wonderful things about the enlightenment is it gave us all these systems that marshal human flaws for the good of all.

比如资本主义，这是一种出色经济体系；还有民主共和国，它表面上基于才能和与民众的联系来推举人才掌权。

So you have capitalism, which is, you know, a wonderful economic system, and you have democratic republics which elevate people to power ostensibly on merit and some kind of connection to the people.

但它们并未消除‘对金钱的热爱是万恶之源’以及‘权力导致腐败’这一事实。

But they don't eliminate the fact that the love of money is the root of all evil and power corrupts.

因此，如今的人们不再需要直面自己财富的寄生本质，因为他们可以说：‘哦，我创造了就业机会。’

So what you now have is people who no longer have to confront the parasitical nature of their wealth because they can say, oh, well, I created jobs.

我创造了财富。

I created wealth.

我分享了财富。

I spread the wealth.

但他们依然被腐蚀、灵魂枯竭，因为他们沉迷于金钱，而金钱是一种偶像崇拜，会逐渐吞噬人性。

But they're still corrupted and souled because they fall in love with money, which is a form of idolatry and it does eat people away.

而那些通过财富或选举获得权力的人，可以声称：‘这不像亨利五世那样，觉得这只是一场仪式。’

And you have people who are in power whether through wealth or through election who can say, Well, it's not like Henry V thinking, Oh, this is a ceremony.

我实际上通过选举被人民提升，或者我创建了亚马逊，或者做了类似的事情，但这种权力依然在腐蚀着我。

I actually have been elevated by the people by election or I created amazon.com or I did something like that, and yet that power is still corrupting.

因此，当我们解决这些问题时，我们仍未消除人类本身是一个破碎系统的事实。

So as we solve the problems, we still haven't eliminated the fact that the human being is a broken system.

这是一个矛盾的系统，一个实际上在追求目标的系统，但我想是王尔德说过：我们所有人都站在阴沟里，但有些人却在仰望星空。

It's a contradictory system, a system that actually is aiming But it was Oscar Wilde I think who said, We're all standing in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

我认为，我们忘记了自己正站在阴沟里，因为我们现在可以说：托尔斯泰找到了上帝，他想：天啊，我是个寄生虫。

And I think that that idea that we forget that we're standing in the gutter because now we can actually say You know, Tolstoy found God and he thought, Oh my God, I'm a parasite.

我靠农奴的脊背生活。

I'm living on the backs of the surfs.

但如今你不必再这么说。

But now you don't have to say that anymore.

这就是为什么我鄙视安·兰德，顺便说一句。

People this is why I despise Ayn Rand, by the way.

这就是为什么我如此厌恶她，因为她是个糟糕的作家。

This is why I just I despise from the fact that she's a terrible writer.

我无法忍受将权力和财富提升为美德的做法，这根本不是一回事。

I just can't stand this elevation of power and wealth to a state of virtue, it's simply not.

权力和财富本身就是，有时人们确实配得上，有时拥有美德的人也会正确使用它们，但美德本身并不是，它可能对人类的灵魂造成极大的破坏。

It is power and wealth, and sometimes it's deserved, and sometimes it's used correctly by people who have virtue, but it's not the virtue itself, it can be incredibly destructive to the human soul.

是的。

Yeah.

我之所以能一直坚定地停留在心理学领域，是因为我不认为系统性的改变能触及问题的核心。

Well, the reason that I've stayed as firmly as I've been able to in the psychological domain is because I don't believe that systemic alteration strikes to the core of the problem.

我一直以来都很担忧。

I've always I've been concerned.

我会说，我根本的智力兴趣是。

I would say my fundamental intellectual interest.

不仅是我智力上的，更是存在意义上的兴趣，那就是邪恶的问题。

It's not only intellectual existential interest is the issue of evil.

我对系统性的邪恶并不太感兴趣，部分原因是，我更关注个体的实际动机。

And, and I'm not really that interested in systemic evil, partly because I'm much more interested in actual individual motivation.

所以我想知道，我想知道我怎么能成为奥斯维辛的看守。

So I wanted to know, see, I wanted to know how I could be an Auschwitz prison guard.

但不仅如此，我还想知道我怎么能成为奥斯维辛的看守并且还享受其中。

But more than that, I wanted to know how I could be an Auschwitz prison guard and enjoy it.

而且

And

如果

if

如果你不认为你自己就是那样的人，那你对人性根本一无所知。

you don't think that you are that person, you don't know much about people.

现在，这并不意味着有些人更容易受到当奥斯维辛看守所带来的诱惑和快感的影响。

Now, that doesn't mean that there are some people, there are some people who would be tilted more in the direction of the temptations and pleasures that being an Auschwitz guard would provide.

对吧？

Right?

有些人天生更能抵御这种特定的罪恶倾向。

There are some people who are more temperamentally protected against that particular sinful route.

你知道，对于一个极度富有同情心的人来说，犯下这种错误会非常困难。

You know, it'd be very hard for someone who is hyper compassionate to make that particular error.

他们更可能变成一个过度保护的母亲，例如，把所有人都当成婴儿一样对待。

They'd much be much more likely to turn into a devouring mother, for example, and infantilize everyone.

但我仍然非常好奇，你是如何在自己的灵魂中建立起屏障，以抵御那些为你提供滥用权力途径的人的诱惑。

But I was still very curious about how you erect barriers in your own soul to the blandishments of those who would provide for you an avenue to that kind of sadistic misuse of power.

你可能会说，我永远不会做那种事。

And you might say I'd never do that.

而我会说，不，只是你还没有遇到这样的机会。

And I'd say no, the opportunity for you to do that just hasn't presented itself.

这可能是因为你自身的能力不足，而不是因为你的道德高尚。

And that might be because of your own inability, not your moral virtue.

你只是从未设法让自己上升到能够掌控他人权力的位置。

You've just never managed to elevate yourself to a place where you have power over anyone else.

这并不是一种美德。

That's not a virtue.

那就是我们一开始讨论时提到的那个软弱的男人。

That's that weak man that we were talking about at the beginning of the discussion.

这也让我们自然地进入对话的下一部分。

And that's also what this can segue us into the next part of this conversation.

也许这正是让我对神学思想产生兴趣的原因，因为我认为困扰我们的根本问题是心理层面的，而这些基本的心理问题与神学问题无法区分。

Maybe that's actually also what got me interested in theological ideas, you know, because I became convinced that the fundamental issues that beset us are psychological, but that the fundamental psychological issues are indistinguishable from the theological.

因此，我认为——我相信邪恶是真实存在的——对抗邪恶的斗争本质上是在灵魂中进行的。

And so, because I think that well, I think the battle against evil, and I do believe in the reality of evil, the battle against evil is fundamentally fought in the soul.

于是，你已经走过了一段漫长的道路，形成了相当复杂的信仰。

And so now you have had a long journey towards a relatively relatively elaborate faith.

这不是你与生俱来的信仰。

And it's not the faith that you were born into.

那么，你愿意为我们详细讲讲这段历程吗？

And so do you want to walk us through that a bit?

我想知道，具体有哪些步骤？

And I'd like to know, like, what were the steps?

这究竟是怎么发生的？

How did this come about?

我也想知道，这如何与你的小说创作交织在一起，因为我觉得神学就像元小说，你知道吗？

I'd also like to know how it dovetailed with your fiction writing in particular, because I think of the theological is like meta fiction, you know?

是的，这给创作自然主义小说带来了实际的困难。

Yeah, it created actual problems in how to write natural fiction.

有一段时间，我转向了奇幻写作，因为那是我能表达所见新现实层次的唯一方式。

For a while, I wandered into fantasy writing because it was the only way I could express the new level of reality that I was seeing.

但最终，我发现这非常令人不满，因为我相信上帝是现实世界的上帝。

But ultimately, I found that very unsatisfying because I feel that God is God of the real world.

我觉得他不是幻想中的上帝，也不是糖果乐园的上帝。

I feel he's not a fantasy God, and he's not God of Candyland.

他是这个世界的上帝。

He's God of this world.

我49岁受洗，这说来话长，所以我不想细说

Since I was baptized at the age of 49, it's kind of a long story, so I don't wanna go into

没关系。

it That's okay.

说说吧，我非常好奇，我觉得这对听众会有帮助。

Lay it out because I'm very curious about I think it'd be helpful for the listeners.

所以当

So when

我在大学时，后现代主义的第一波浪潮正在兴起，我们开始听到相对主义、语言与意义的脱节等等这些观点。

I was in college, the first wave of the postmodernists were coming on, and we were starting to hear about relativism and the disjunction of language with meaning and all of these things.

我想我当时19岁，读了《罪与罚》。

I guess I was 19 years old, and I read Crime and Punishment.

那是什么时候？

When was this?

那是哪一年？

What year was that?

嗯，19岁的话，应该是1973年。

See, '19, it would have been '73.

1973年。

'73.

好的，现在我清楚时间背景了。

Okay, so now I'm situated in time.

你读了《罪与罚》。

You read Crime and Punishment.

哦，这就能说明问题了。

Oh, that'll do the trick.

没错。

Exactly.

这里有一个场景，一个男人，陀思妥耶夫斯基写作时尼采还没出现，但我认为陀思妥耶夫斯基实际上是个先知，他预见了尼采将要提出的思想，他看到了那些观念即将出现。

And here's this scene of a man who and Dostoevsky was writing before Nietzsche, but he actually Dostoevsky, I believe, an actual prophet, he actually prophesied what Nietzsche was gonna He saw he saw those ideas coming.

于是小说中出现了这样一个场景：一个人拿起斧头，不只是砍向折磨他的当铺老板，还杀死了她智力迟钝的妹妹——在一场充满纯真与邪恶的场景中，他杀害了一个神志不清、只是茫然望着他的女人。

And so you have the scene in a novel where a man takes an axe not just to the pawnbroker who is bedeviling him, but to her retarded sister and kills in just a scene of incredible innocence and evil, kills a woman who can't think straight and just looking at him with this blank look.

我当时想，这绝对不可能不是一种邪恶的行为。

And I thought, you know, there is no way this is not an evil act.

我认为在这一点上保持这样就可以了。

I think that's to stay at this point.

你无法构建出任何这样的体系。

Is no construct that you can have.

对我来说，这是我唯一一次信仰的飞跃。

And this to me is the only leap of faith I ever took.

我走向基督教的旅程中，唯一一次信仰的飞跃，就是认定：确实存在某种邪恶，因此也必然存在某种良善或非邪恶——无论世界上每个人是否这样认为，无论你能否说服自己它不是邪恶的，它依然就是邪恶的。

The only leap of faith I ever took in my journey to Christianity was saying that there is something that is evil and therefore something that is good or not evil, whether or not every single person in the world thinks so and whether or not you can convince yourself it's not, it remains evil.

这意味着，是的。

And that means Yeah.

这意味着我们的身体行为和我们的思想，与超越自然层面的意义相连，这正是我所说的超自然的含义。

That means that our physical actions and our our mind is linked to a level of meaning above the natural, which is what I mean when I say supernatural.

我不是说会发生什么魔法般的事情。

I don't mean like magical things happen.

你的意思是超验的。

You mean transcendent.

超越的。

Transcendent.

是的。

Yes.

它超越了自然和物质。

And it transcends the natural and the physical.

因此，要使这一点成立，首先，当那本书中发生那起谋杀时，它让我对后现代主义的诱惑产生了免疫力。

And so for that to be true, first of all, that moment when that murder happens in that book inoculated me to the blandishments of postmodernity.

当你读《哈姆雷特》中的疯狂场景时，哈姆雷特走过了后现代主义的所有思想。

When I read if you read the mad scene in Hamlet, Hamlet walks through all of the ideas in postmodernity.

他说：‘你在读什么？’

He says, Well, I'm reading What are you reading?

我只在读文字，文字，文字，如果文字与意义脱节的话。

I'm just reading words, words, words, if the words were disjointed from meaning.

他说：‘没有什么是好或坏的，是思想使然。’

He says, Nothing's either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

关于这一点，伟大的莎士比亚是在向你表明，哈姆雷特是在假装疯狂。

The only thing about that is Shakespeare the Great was showing to you that Hamlet is pretending to be mad.

他知道他说的那些话是疯狂的，但那些来到我大学的教授们却不知道。

He knows that the things that he's saying are mad, but the professors who were coming into my university didn't know it.

他们真的以为自己说的才是理智的。

They actually thought what they were saying was sanity.

我认为莎士比亚想表达的是，他们其实心里明白，但还是这么说，因为逻辑在推动他们这么做。

And I think what Shakespeare was saying was they really did know, but they were saying it anyway because the logic was following that So

这并非出于其他更黑暗的动机。

that did not For other darker motivations.

对吧？

Right?

因为它允许完全推卸责任，并随之陷入一种不负责任的享乐主义。

Because it allows for a complete abdication of responsibility and a descent into responsibility less hedonism that comes along with it.

对此无计可施。

There's no way around that.

因此，萨德侯爵也是启蒙理性主义者的代表人物。

That's why the Marquis de Sade is also a standard bearer of the enlightenment rationalists.

他曾经祈祷过

And he prayed

陀思妥耶夫斯基明白这一点。

And Dostoevsky knew that.

我的意思是，《罪与罚》中最引人注目的地方，你提到了其中一点，当然，这也是我深入研究纳粹德国乃至更恶劣地区所发生之事、所施加的暴行的原因。

I mean, the thing that's so remarkable about crime and punishment, you pointed to one of the things, you know, and it was certainly my my investigations into what had happened in Nazi Germany and in worse places even, the horrors that were perpetrated.

如果你读过这些内容，能想象人类会做出这样的事，却仍不认为那是邪恶的，那我可不想和你待在同一个地方。

If you can read about those and you can imagine human beings doing that and you don't regard that as evil, I don't want to be anywhere near you.

这应该让你警醒。

That should wake you up.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh, god.

如果这还不能让你清醒过来，我觉得你有类似的经历真是太有意思了。

If that doesn't wake you up and I think this is so interesting that you had a very similar experience.

顺便说一下，我认为山姆·哈里斯也有非常相似的经历，因为他一直对邪恶这个问题着迷。

I think Sam Harris had a very interest very similar experience by the way too, because he's been obsessed by the issue of evil as well.

邪恶是一种如此真实可感的东西，如果你直面它，你就会要么确信它的存在，要么就无药可救了。

Like evil is something so palpable that if you face it, then you will become you'll either become convinced of its reality or there is no hope for you.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

一旦你变得

And once you become

对犯罪与惩罚有了深刻的认识。

convinced happened with crime and punishment for you.

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

确实如此。

It did.

但由于我的背景，我是一个生活在沿海城市的世俗犹太人，身处艺术界，是一名小说家。

But because of my milieu, because I was a secular Jew in coastal cities in the artistic world, I was a novelist.

是的。

Yeah.

我接触的都是有见识的人。

I was dealing with sophisticated people.

真正相信上帝，而不是带着讽刺意味，甚至超越荣格所说的——你无法分辨这究竟是某种传递的意义，还是真实的意义。

The idea of believing in God unironically, or even beyond the Jungian, well, you can't tell whether this is a delivered meaning or a real meaning.

这个想法离我非常近。

That idea was absolutely close to me.

但我无法触及它。

I couldn't reach it.

因此，我在小说中花了多年时间与后现代主义抗争。

And so I spent many years struggling with the postmodernist in my novels.

我小说的主题是如何分辨什么是真实的。

The themes of my novels are how could you tell what was real.

我写的是惊悚小说，但它们是关于现实本质、理论无法容纳现实的惊悚小说。

I'm writing thrillers, but they were thrillers about the nature of reality, the inability of theory to contain reality.

于是我一直在与这个问题抗争，并逐渐意识到，如果没有某种终极善的概念，你就无法抵达道德现实，而这种终极善必须是人格化的善，因为没有选择、没有意识、没有道德，就没有善。

And so I was struggling with that, and I was beginning to realize that you simply could not get to moral reality without some idea of an ultimate good and that that ultimate good had to be a personal good because there is no good without choice, without consciousness, without morality.

所以我在

So I

开始明白，也许没有关系，这就是为什么关系。

was beginning to understand Maybe without relationship, which is why relationship.

这很有趣，因为旧约中有一件奇怪的事，那就是坚持认为我们与现实的基本关系必须且应当是契约性的。

Well, so interesting because one of the things that happens in the Old Testament is this weird insistence that our fundamental relationship with reality must and should be covenantal.

这实际上是一种最好被理解为关系的关系。

It's actually a relationship that's best construed.

那么，让我们花一点时间想想这一点。

Well, and then you think, Okay, let's think about that for a minute.

那么，什么是人呢？

Okay, so what's a human being?

人是一种人格。

Well, a human being is a personality.

如果一种人格要在这个世界上像人格那样运作，也就是说，人格存在于关系之中，这正是人格的定义。

Now, if a personality can function in the world like a personality exists in relationship, that's like the definition of a personality.

因此，如果正是我们的人格使我们得以生存和存在，那么我们与世界的关系在最终分析中，怎么可能不是契约性的呢？

And so if it's our personality that enables us to survive to exist, then in what possible manner is our relationship with the world not covenantal in the final analysis?

我真的看不到任何摆脱这种观点的方式。

Like, I can't see a way out of that.

因此，这意味着其中包含一种类似人际关系的个人元素。

And so that means there's a personal element to it that's relationship like.

我们并不是以死物的身份面对一组死寂的事实。

It's not like we stand as dead objects in relationship to a set of dead facts.

事情并不是这样运作的。

That's not how it works.

你知道，这正是在我看来，如果文学中真有最深刻的一刻，那就是摩西面对燃烧的荆棘，因为他面对的是象征世界创造与毁灭的事物。

You know, this is why to me, if there's such a thing as the most profound moment in all of literature, it's Moses confronting the burning bush because he's confronting what's a symbol of the creation and destruction of the world.

事物诞生，也会消亡。

Things are born and they die.

生长，然后被吞噬，却永不终结。

Grow and they're consumed, but they never end.

它对他说：我是。

And it says to him, I am.

我是。

I am.