571. 掌握人际关系技巧，提升约会生活 | 接听来电

和妻子争论你永远赢不了。这是必然的。你的防御机制和自尊心会让你觉得，这次肯定能赢。

You don't win an argument with your wife. You never win that. Part of your defensive mechanism and your pride is gonna be, well, this time for sure.

不过偶尔也有例外。

Sometimes though.

是啊是啊。当然，这种情况确实很方便。

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's convenient when that's the case.

对于我这个年龄段的男性，关于如何最好地整合或克服过去感情阴影，您有什么建议？核心问题是

What's some advice that you could give a man my age on how best to integrate or maybe conquer the ghosts of past relationships? The core

我该怎么做才能确保不把过去带入未来？理解过去。理解过去。总会有你或伴侣曾被背叛的时刻——无论是被自己还是他人背叛，这不重要。背叛就是背叛。

of the question was, what can I do to ensure that I'm not dragging the past into the future? Understand the past. Understand the past. There will be times when you or your partner were betrayed in the past by yourself, by someone else, doesn't matter. There's a betrayal.

当我暗示问题在你时，你会产生防御心理。部分原因是你不愿承认，部分是你潜意识知道下面藏着些不愿揭开的难堪真相。你还得允许伴侣用笨拙的方式做好事。当他们刚开始倾听、帮忙梳理问题时，你得让他们摸索一阵子。人们常会两次尝试困难的事。

And then when I suggest that it's you, you're gonna get defensive. Partly because you don't want it to be you and partly because there's a part of you that knows that there's something underneath that that's going to be very unpleasant to uncover. You also have to allow your partner to do a good thing badly. When they first start to listen, when they first start to help and untangle, you gotta let them flail them out a fair bit. People will often do something difficult twice.

比如久别重逢后的约会。第一次往往不顺利，人们就会想‘再也不要这样了’。这种情况很常见。结果他们几十年都没有浪漫生活。这可不明智。

Go on a date, for example, when they haven't been with each other for a long time. It won't go well and they'll think, well, we're certainly not doing that again. That happens to people. Then they don't have any romance for decades. That is not wise.

这可不明智。

That's not wise.

在本期节目中，我们将探讨婚姻与恋爱关系，这应该会很有趣。幸运的是，我丈夫从不关注我的工作内容。现在第一位连线的是芝加哥的约翰。

In this episode, we're talking about marriage and relationships. So that should be interesting. Fortunately, my husband doesn't watch anything I do. So first on the line, John in Chicago.

你好，约翰。

Hi, John.

你好，彼得森医生。感谢邀请我参加节目。

Hi, Doctor. Peterson. Thank you for having me on the show.

是的，谢谢你的主动参与。

Yeah, thanks for offering.

我今年53岁，离婚已有九年。这九年间，我刻意将大量时间、精力和关注都投入到儿子身上，尤其是他对表演的天赋。最近，在我那位极度外向的17岁儿子再三劝说下，经过深思熟虑并克服内心恐惧后，我采纳了他的建议开始约会。值得庆幸的是，迈出这一步后，我遇到了一位非常出色的女性。

I'm 53 years old. I've been divorced for about nine years. During those nine years, I've purposely devoted a very substantial portion of my time, effort and attention to my son and his predisposition for acting. Recently, the urging of my highly extroverted 17 year old son and after quite a bit of thought and feelings of terror on my part, I took his advice and started dating. Thankfully, after taking that step, I've started dating a rather fantastic woman.

在我们五个月恋爱冒险中，我深刻体会到人生中拥有亲密伴侣的重要性。我们甚至讨论过共度余生的可能性。基于我简要描述的情况，您能否给我这个年纪的男性一些建议——如何最好地整合（或战胜）过往感情经历和生活选择留下的阴影，为能持续余生的新恋情奠定坚实基础？

During the adventure of our five month relationship, I've seriously discovered the importance of having an intimate partner in my life. And we've even discussed the possibility of spending the rest of our lives together. So my question is based on the abbreviated description of my situation, what's some advice that you could give a man my age on how best to integrate or maybe conquer the ghosts of past relationships and life choices to properly set the foundation for a new relationship to last the rest of our lives?

我有个在线程序叫'往事书写'，可以帮助人们撰写自传。我认为这对你很有用，因为你正关注于战胜过去的阴影——以你的年龄和智慧，这非常明智。当你希望以清晰的头脑踏上新征途，同时理解并基本战胜了过去的恶魔时，这种工具很有价值。我们通过语言和故事在神经层面进行最高层次的自我组织。而你迄今为止的人生若被正确理解，就能构成连贯的叙事。这当然很难，毕竟你要梳理五十年的岁月，其中必然存在未被充分厘清的片段。

I have a program that you might want to try online called Past Authoring that helps people write an autobiography. I would say that it would be useful for you, since you're concerned with conquering the ghosts of the past, which is a very wise thing to do at your age, with your wisdom, and when you're wanting to embark on a new path forward with clarity and with the demons of the past understood and relatively conquered. Now, we organize ourselves neurologically at the highest level through language and story. And your life to date properly understood would make a coherent narrative. Now, that's hard because you have five decades to contend with and there will be elements of your past that aren't well mapped.

这些就是潜在的陷阱。你对过去所有不理解之处，都是未来可能跌入的陷阱。识别这些陷阱的方法之一，是留意那些至今仍鲜活炽热、带有情感冲击的记忆。如果一年半前的记忆仍具有情感分量，这其实是焦虑预警系统在提醒：你尚未从那段经历中汲取全部教训。

And those are the pitfalls. Everything you don't understand about your past is a pitfall waiting for you to fall into in the future. Now, one of the ways that you can understand where those pitfalls exist is that you'll have memories of the past that are still hot and active. They still have emotional significance. Now, if a memory that's more than a year and a half old still has emotional significance, that's an indication from the anxiety alarm systems that you did not mine that experience for its full significance.

这意味着你仍需学习如何避免未来重蹈覆辙——正如你所说想要做到的。我会建议你花些时间书写人生，这很有裨益。这个程序（当然你也可以自行操作）会要求你将人生划分为七八个阶段。有人按感情经历划分，有人按教育阶段或职业转型划分。任何你觉得合理的划分方式——无论是按不同年龄段还是其他标准——都可以采用。

And that means that you still have something to learn to avoid falling into that pitfall again in the future, which is what you indicated that you want to do. So, I would say that you could profitably spend some time writing down your life. Now, the way the program works, and you don't have to do the program, you can do this on your own, is that it asks you to break your life down into seven or eight epochs. So, some people do that by their relationships, sometimes people do it by their educational progression or their career transformations. Whatever way seems reasonable to you or, you know, different chunks of age, whatever way seems reasonable to you to break down your life is fine.

接着要梳理出最具意义的正负事件，将它们条理化：理解积极事件为何积极，你做对了什么，当时的情境如何促成了好结果；反思你何时偏离正轨，自己当时起了什么作用，未来该如何应对。这种梳理要让你与时俱进。这相当于一种锻炼——不是身体锻炼，而是'心魔锻炼'，能帮你驯服往昔的幽灵。这里需要理解的核心原则其实是记忆的本质规律。

And then to think through what the most significant positive and negative events were to lay them out, to lay them out in a way that helps you understand why the positive events were positive, what you did right and what the circumstances were so that that positive outcome was most likely, where you went astray, how you contributed to that, how you might deal with that in the future. You wanna do that in a manner that brings you up to date. And so that'll help exercise and I don't mean physical exercise, I mean demon exercise. That'll help exercise the ghosts of the past. Now, the rule here to understand is the principle to understand here is the actual principle of memory.

你记忆过去并非为了建立客观精确的记录（这根本不可能实现），而是为了在未来复制美好、规避不幸。这意味着你必须从中提炼出恰当的教训——这才是经历的意义所在。因此，及时更新你的人生叙事非常有用，这样你才能明了自己所处的位置。

You do not remember the past so you have an accurate objective record of the past. That's actually impossible because you can't have a comprehensive record of the past. You remember the past so that you can duplicate what was good about it in the future and avoid what was bad about it in the future. And that means you have to have derived the appropriate moral, which is the point from the outcome. And so, it's very useful to bring your narrative up to date, then you know where you are.

唯有认清现状，才能规划未来——与你的新伴侣共同规划。我特别推荐这个方法，是因为这个问题的核心在于'如何确保不把过去拖进未来'。答案就是：理解过去。彻底理解过去。

Once you know where you are, you can plot your future. You can plot your future together with your new partner. And so, the reason I recommended this in particular, in consequence of this question was because the core of the question was, what can I do to ensure that I'm not dragging the past into the future? It's like, understand the past. Understand the past.

对吧？要深入挖掘它。

Right? Delve into it.

那很好。这很有趣，因为你深入探讨了这个问题，而我也有一些实用建议，不仅仅是因为我已经再婚多年，而是因为我经历过一些事情。我注意到，试着弄清楚你的担忧是什么，或者用不太准确的说法，你的触发点是什么。我发现当自己处于某些过去曾出现过的糟糕情境时，会表现出异常激烈的情绪反应。我必须意识到，哦，我认出了过去的模式，但这并不是同一件事。它只是有某些相似之处。对，对。

That's good. This is interesting because you get deep into it, and I've got some, like, practical tips because I just not just actually, because it's been a number of years that I've been remarried, but I went through something What I noticed, I noticed try and figure out what your concerns are, and for lack of a better word, your triggers are. So I noticed that when I was in certain situations that were bad in the past that had a similar pattern, I'd have an emotional reaction that was way off the charts. And I had to recognize, oh, I'm recognizing a pattern from the past, but this isn't the same thing. It just has certain Right, right.

所以这是我的问题。但后来我会和丈夫讨论，在我们注意到这种情况发生几次后，他也开始察觉了。我会说，好吧，因为过去发生的事情让我现在很恐慌。然后我们会通过沟通来解决，这非常有用。

So that's a me problem. But then I'd talk about it with my husband, and he started to pick up on it once we noticed this happened a couple of times. And I'd say, Okay, this is freaking me out because of what happened in the past. And then we'd communicate through it, which was really useful.

你指出的其中一点是，这非常有用，你可以观察自己或伴侣对那些反复出现的、与触发点不成比例的情绪反应。好。要探究这些，你得经历一趟但丁的地狱之旅。好。《神曲·地狱篇》讲述的就是一段通往冥界、通往地狱的旅程。

So one of the things that you're pointing out is that, and this is extremely useful, that you can watch yourself or your partner for emotional responses that are disproportionate to the trigger that recur. Okay. Now, to investigate those, you have to take a trip to Dante's inferno. Okay. So, the book, The Inferno, is a story of a voyage to the underworld, a voyage to hell.

现在，关键想法是这样的：想象一个微不足道的触发点引发了相当深刻的情绪波动。这意味着下面还藏着别的东西。藏得有多深？

Now, here's the idea, is that under So, imagine there's a trivial trigger for a relatively profound emotional upset. Okay. That means there's something underneath it. Okay. How far underneath?

这正是你需要深入挖掘才能发现的。但丁把背叛者直接放在撒旦身边的地狱最深处。所以经常你会发现，无论是自己还是伴侣——这在任何关系中几乎都不可避免——总会有那么些时刻，你或你的伴侣在过去被自己或他人背叛过（是谁不重要）。这种背叛让你变得无法信任，并对任何类似情境都过度敏感。

Well, that's what you have to dig into to find out. Dante put the betrayers right next to Satan in the depths of hell, so to So often what you'll find with yourself or with your partner, and this is almost inevitable in any relationship, is that there will be times when you or your partner were betrayed in the past by yourself, by someone else, doesn't matter. There's a betrayal. And that has meant left you unable to trust and hypersensitive about any situation that's reminiscent of that.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。有些人就是...那些持续遭遇背叛、从未有过良好关系的人，比如说一个女人和男人相处时，她们...她们就是这样。她们可能有一百个这样的触发点。

Exactly. Yeah. Some people are just who some people who've been betrayed continually who've never had a good relationship, let's say, if they're a woman with a man, they yeah. They're they're just like that. They just have, like, a 100 triggers like that.

是啊，难怪呢。

Yeah. And no wonder.

确实不足为奇。但遗憾的是，这意味着你必须深入根源。这非常困难，因为你会发现——假设我指出了你的问题所在——首先你会把我视为问题的根源。

And no wonder. But it means, unfortunately, that you have to go to the bottom. And that's very difficult because one of the things you'll find too is that so let's say I identify that in you. Well, first of all, you're gonna see me as the cause.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

所以这会很艰难。而当我暗示问题在你身上时，你会产生防御心理，部分是因为你不愿承认问题在己，部分是因为你内心明白潜藏的东西一旦揭露会非常痛苦。接着你会变得易怒，用愤怒作为防御机制。如果我继续施压，你会哭泣让我觉得自己像个恶霸。因此这件事必须非常谨慎地处理。

So, that's gonna that's hard. And then when I suggest that it's you, you're gonna get defensive, partly because you don't want it to be you, and partly because there's a part of you that knows that there's something underneath that that's going to be very unpleasant to uncover. And then you're going to be irritable and get angry as a defensive mechanism. And then if I keep pushing, you'll cry and make me feel like I'm a bully. So, this has to be done very carefully.

不过哭泣也可能是一种情绪释放。根据我的经验，哭泣确实能宣泄情绪。这次我没花太长时间，因为之前已经做了很多功课，也意识到这会是个问题。

Might also be an emotional release though, crying. Is an emotional release. From my experience. Yeah. And this didn't take me very long because I'd already done a lot of work and was aware that this was gonna be a problem.

没错。所以当我察觉到自己心跳加速，某些事勾起过去类似情境的回忆时，心跳就会加快，整个人开始慌乱——真的非常慌乱。就像在说'我拒绝面对这个'。

Yeah. So when I saw myself, okay, my, like, heartbeat is going up, something happens that reminds me of a past situation. My heartbeat goes up, and I get flappy, like, really flappy. Yeah. Like, I'm not doing this.

绝对不行。对，要设立严格界限。就像在说'天啊，这股情绪爆发到底从哪来的？'

Absolutely no. Yeah. Huge boundaries. Yeah. And it's like, woah, where did this outburst of emotion come from?

然后我可能会说，好吧。我害怕。就像，主要是我很害怕，这不是一个合适的反应。我觉得对我有用的是花点时间呼吸、冷静下来，告诉自己这不一样。试图触及这里的神经系统之类的，这不一样。

And then I could go, okay. I'm scared. Like, that's the main thing is I'm scared, and that's not an appropriate response. I feel like what worked for me was taking a minute and breathing and calming down and being like, this isn't the same. Trying to reach right here nervous system or something, this isn't the same.

或者甚至这可能也不一样。对吧？这是个良好的开端。

Or even this might not be the same. Right? That's a good initial step.

那个，是的。就是

That, yes. That's

不是良好的开端对吧？然后还有其他一些有益的态度可以采取。比如如果你和伴侣反复遇到问题，有几种可能性。可能是你，这是一种可能。可能是对方，这是另一种可能。

the not good initial the right? And then there's other attitudes that you can adopt that are helpful. Like if you're running into a recurrent problem with your partner, there's a couple of possibilities. It's you, that's one possibility. It's the other person, that's another possibility.

可能是你们都没考虑到的某些情境因素。现在你必须采取的态度——这很难做到——是谦卑而非骄傲的态度：即使只有5%是我的问题，改正它对我、对我的伴侣、对我们的婚姻都是最有利的。所以我会倾听对方说的话。你知道，你的防御机制和骄傲会让你觉得，这次肯定是伴侣的问题。

It's some situational variable that you haven't all considered. Now, the attitude you have to take, and this is this is hard to do. This is the attitude of humility rather than pride is even if it's only 5% me, it would be in my best interest and my partner's best interest and the best interest of our marriage to fix it. So I'm going to listen to what this other person says. You know, part of your defensive mechanism and your pride is gonna be, well, this time for sure, it's my partner.

百分之百是他们问题的概率非常低

The probability that's a 100% them is very low

不过有时候确实如此。而且它让人眼花缭乱。

and Sometimes though. And it was bedazzled.

是的，当情况如此时确实很方便。谦逊之所以是一种宗教修行，是因为保持'你可能还有东西要学'的态度极其有用，对吧？因为这样你就能不断学习。

Yeah. Well, it's convenient when that's the case. The reason that humility is a religious practice is because it's extremely useful to adopt the attitude that you might have something to learn. Right? Because then you can keep learning.

而目标，共同的目标应该是——这也是为什么婚姻誓言必须神圣、必须深刻——目标应该是：让我们生活在和平与和谐中。是的，让我们解决这个问题。

And the goal, the mutual goal should be, and this is why the marriage vow has to be sacred, it has to be deep, the aim should be, let's live in peace and harmony. Yeah. Let's solve this.

而不是'让我赢'。是的。或者说'我想赢'。

Not let's win. Yeah. That's for Or I wanna win.

是的，是的。不仅仅是'让我们...'，或者我内心某种可怕的东西想赢。你永远赢不了与妻子的争论，从来都赢不了。

Yeah. Yeah. More than let's Or something terrible in me wants to win. You don't win an argument with your wife. That you never win that.

这不是...如果你反复'赢'，她只会反复'输'。这是个非常糟糕的策略。目标应该是：我们会笨拙地、愚蠢地讨论这件事，但尽我们所能直到解决。而且...对方或你受的伤害越深，这过程就越困难。确实很难。

It's not and if you win repeatedly, she just loses repeatedly. That's a very bad strategy. The goal should be, we'll talk about this badly, foolishly, but as the best we can until we've sorted out. And that's The more the person you're with or you has been hurt, the harder that is. It's hard.

特别是对不习惯这种做法的人来说，他们可能因为某事心烦意乱，有时需要一周时间才能弄清楚真正困扰他们的是什么。要触及问题核心非常困难。

And it often takes, especially someone who is not practiced at this, they'll be upset about something. It can take them a week to figure out what's actually bothering them. It's very hard to get to the bottom of things.

是的，你需要练习。但练习确实有效。

Yeah. You need to practice. But practice does work.

练习确实有效。对，对。而且明确目标也有效。就像，我不想，我不想永远和你这样争执下去。

Practice definitely works. Yeah. Yeah. And and getting your aim straight works. It's like, I don't wanna I don't wanna have the this fight with you for the rest of time.

嗯，记得你喜欢这个人。如果你喜欢对方，那真的很有帮助。就像，等等，不，我确实喜欢你。

Well, remembering you like the person. If you like the person, that really helps. It's like, wait, no, I do like you.

嗯，这是件值得牢记的好事，因为它也能帮你克服争强好胜的倾向。就像你必须记住你爱这个人。这真是你可以在婚姻中实践的事。比如，作为一种练习，看着你的妻子，回想你爱她的时刻。记住这点。

Well, that is it's a very good thing to remember because that also helps you fight against the proclivity to win. It's like you gotta remember that you love the person. This is something you can really practice in your marriage. Like, as a practice, look at your wife and remember when that you love her. Remember that.

把它记在心里。唤起那种感觉，那种当爱意不言自明时的感受。人们常常会浪漫化关系初期，当那种强烈的浪漫爱意初次显现时。大家都知道，这种爱会随时间消退。但如果不主动维系，它确实会消退。

Bring it to mind. Bring that feeling that you had when that was self evident. People, you know, often romanticize the early stages of a relationship when that intense romantic love first manifests itself. You know, and everyone says, well, that declines with time. Well, it declines with time if you don't practice it.

就像其他所有事一样，如果持续经营，它就不会随时间消退。而我们的文化对这些事非常无知。我们几乎不懂灵性修行。我们不练习谦卑，对吧？但你必须练习。

Just like everything else, it doesn't decline with time if you practice it. And you can Our culture is very clueless about such things. We know virtually nothing of spiritual practice. We don't practice humility, Right? You have to practice that.

我们也不练习感恩。练习感恩意味着记住你感激的事物，并真诚地每天或每时每刻去寻找它。对爱也要这样做。你必须记住。当你在处理复杂问题时，这真的能帮到你。

We don't practice gratitude. To practice gratitude means you remember what you're grateful about and search for it genuinely every day or every moment. And you do the same thing with love. You have to remember. And that can really help you when you're trying to sort through something complex.

然后你还需要有那种基于勇气的信任，而非天真的信任。对吧？就像，我要在我最脆弱时把自己托付给你。所以，你绝不能辜负这种信任。

And then you also have to have the trust that's courage rather than the trust that's naivety. Right? It's like, I'm gonna put me in your hands when I'm most vulnerable. Right? So, you don't wanna violate that trust.

是的。如果你真的违反了，那就得解决它，道歉并努力不再犯。另外我想说的是，为了结束这个话题，你还得允许伴侣把事情搞砸。比如当他们刚开始倾听、刚开始帮忙解决问题时，你得让他们手忙脚乱一阵子。你要记住，既然结婚了，他们可能需要尝试50次才能做好。

Yep. And if you do violate it, then you wanna sort that out, apologize and try not to do it again. The other thing I would say, just to close this office, you also have to allow your partner to do a good thing badly. Like when they first start to listen, when they first start to help and untangle, you gotta let them flail about a fair bit. And you have to remember since you're married that it might take them 50 times to get it right.

就像可能需要50次约会或50次会议才能勉强掌握。50次谈判。如果你一生中要做某件事上万次，50次其实并不多，对吧？人们常常尝试两次困难的事就放弃，比如久别重逢后的约会——

Just like it might take 50 dates or 50 meetings before you're even vaguely good at it. 50 negotiation sessions. 50 isn't very many if you're gonna have to do something 10,000 times in your life. Right? People will often do something difficult twice, go on a date, for example, when they haven't been with each other for a long time.

进展不顺利就会想‘我们肯定不会再试了’。真的吗？你们这辈子都不再尝试了？这种情况确实会发生在人们身上。然后他们几十年都与浪漫无缘。

It won't go well and they'll think, well, we're certainly not doing that again. It's like, oh, really? You're not gonna do that again ever. And and then you that happens to people. Then they don't have any romance for decades.

这可不明智。非常不明智。

That is not wise. That's not wise.

你是否厌倦了在看不到实际效果的情况下，花费无数时间和金钱购买那些承诺让你看起来更年轻、感觉更好的健康美容产品？这就是Fatty15的用武之地。作为90多年来首个新发现的必需脂肪酸，它确实令人惊叹。这种名为C15的营养素能强化我们的细胞，在细胞层面提供的益处是Omega3或鱼油的三倍。更引人注目的是，约三分之一的人可能缺乏C15，这会导致所谓的细胞脆性综合征——本质上就是细胞变得脆弱并加速衰老。

Are you tired of spending countless hours and dollars on health and beauty products that promise to make you look and feel younger without seeing real results? That's where fatty fifteen comes in. It's actually the first new essential fatty acid discovered in over ninety years, which is pretty incredible. This nutrient called c fifteen strengthens our cells and cellular level and has three times more cellular benefits than omega three or fish oils. What's really interesting is that up to one in three people might be deficient in c fifteen, which can cause something called cellular fragility syndrome, basically when our cells become fragile and age even faster.

当细胞缺乏足够的C15时，它们会更快衰败。而随着细胞衰老，我们的身体也会衰老。好消息是C15能修复细胞与年龄相关的损伤，并预防未来损伤。研究表明72%的使用者在16周内就感受到改善：睡眠更好、皮肤更健康、精力更充沛，甚至关节活动更灵活。临床证实仅三个月就能改善肝功能、促进红细胞健康。Fatty15还采用精美的可循环玻璃瓶包装，补充装可直接送货上门。

When our cells don't have enough c fifteen, they break down more quickly and since our cells age, our bodies do too. The good news is that c fifteen actually repairs age related damage to cells and protects them from future breakdown. Studies show that seventy two percent users report seeing benefits within sixteen weeks like better sleep, healthier skin, improved energy, and even smoother functioning joints. It's clinically proven to improve things like liver function and red blood cell health within just three months. Plus, fatty fifteen comes in this gorgeous reusable glass jar with convenient refills shipping right to your door.

Fatty15致力于优化您的C15水平，助力长期健康——尤其是随着年龄增长。现在访问fatty15.com/peterson并使用优惠码Peterson，可额外享受90天订阅入门套装85折优惠。

Fatty fifteen is on a mission to optimize your c 15 levels to help support your long term health and wellness, especially as you age. You can get an additional 15 off their ninety day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com/peterson and using code Peterson at checkout.

接下来，我们有来自田纳西州的塔哈妮。

Up next, we have Tahani in Tennessee.

你好，塔哈妮。你最近怎么样？

Hello, Tahani. How are you doing?

我很好，彼得森医生。

Doing well, doctor Peterson.

很高兴见到你。你可以开始了。

Nice to see you. Away you go.

见到你真好。好的。我叫塔哈妮，如你所知，我是我们七个月大儿子的全职妈妈。我丈夫迈克尔是我们家唯一的经济支柱。他非常勤奋，也很渴望参与家庭事务。

Good to see you. Okay. My name is Tahani, as you know, and I'm a stay at home mom to our seven month old son. And my husband, Michael, is the sole provider for our family. My husband's very hardworking and also eager to be involved in the home.

但有时我们俩都不清楚他应该以什么方式参与。首先，既然他能自主安排工作时间，每天在家陪伴家人多少小时最理想？是否有必要每周固定休息几天，还是应该尽可能多工作赚钱？更重要的是，当他在家时，应该是换尿布、喂奶和洗澡这些'家庭主夫'的工作，还是只专注于陪孩子玩耍？基本上，

But sometimes neither one of us knows what that involvement should look like from him. So first of all, how many hours a day are ideal for him to be home with the family since he makes his own hours? And is it essential to take consistent days off each week, or should he just work and earn as much as possible? More importantly, when he is home, should it be diaper changes, bottles, and bath time, like being a mister mom, or should he focus on playtime only? Basically,

一个工作繁忙的人如何能最大程度地履行父亲职责？作为妻子，我该如何鼓励和支持丈夫的这种参与？在我看来，前九个月，父亲的主要角色是支持母亲对婴儿的精心照料，并让她得到休息。因此，他应该关注你们俩，具体需要投入多少精力某种程度上取决于你的需求。因为他的目标应该是确保你不会过度疲劳，超出你的承受能力。

how can someone who works a lot make the greatest impact as a father? And what can I do as a wife to encourage him and support that involvement from my husband? So for the first nine months, in my estimation, the primary role of the father is to support the mother in her intense care of the infant and to spell her off. And so, he should be focusing on the two of you and how much he should do that is dependent to some degree on how much you need. And because his goal should be to make sure that you aren't overtired and pushed beyond your capacity.

关于他应该工作多少、赚多少钱，这是你们需要协商的事情，而且你们必须根据自己的疲惫程度和需求来协商。话虽如此，我还要指出，在婴儿完全依赖的前九个月里，也是父亲开始与孩子建立关系的时期。你提到的那些实际照料——喂食、换尿布等——都是建立关系的方式。但抱着宝宝并开始玩耍，即使是五六个月大的小婴儿，父亲也可以开始玩些游戏。比如你可以把婴儿举起来进行眼神交流，这是婴儿非常喜欢的互动方式。

Now, whether or not how much he should work and make money, that's something you guys have to negotiate and you will have to negotiate that with your own level of exhaustion and need. Now, having said that, I would also say that those first nine months when the baby is really a dependent infant are also a time where the father can begin to establish a relationship with the child. And any of that care that you described that's practical, feeding, changing, etcetera, is a way of doing that. But holding the baby and starting to play, like even with a very young baby, say six months, five months, a father can start to play games. So one game you can play with a very young infant is to hold the infant up and to make eye contact, which infants quite enjoy.

你还可以编一段小声音序列，比如一段小旋律或数‘一、二、三’轻拍额头。‘一、二、三’拍，‘一、二、三’拍，‘一、二、三’然后突然停下——这会带来小惊喜，因为游戏（尤其是和婴儿玩的）往往是在可预测的 routine 中制造意外变化。你会看到婴儿因此而发笑。

And to you can make a little sequence of noises, you know, like a little melody or count one, two, three, tap heads. One, two, three, tap One, two, three, tap heads. One, two, three, then don't. That's a little surprise because a game is often especially with an infant, a game is establishment of a predictable routine with a surprise variant. And you'll see babies will laugh about that.

但如果意外感太强，他们就会哭。所以需要适当调整强度，不过这是个非常简单的游戏。男性尤其擅长与幼儿玩耍，他们倾向于将婴儿推出简单的舒适区，带入充满刺激的游戏状态——通常通过以各种方式突破婴儿的常规身体极限：伸展、举高、放低、翻转等。

Now, if the surprise is too great, they'll cry. So you gotta kinda calibrate that, but that's a very simple game. And men are particularly good at playing with young children. And when men are playing, what they tend to do is to push the baby outside of his or her zone of simple comfort into the zone of intense play, into being thrilled often. And they do that by pushing the baby in various ways beyond his or her ordinary physical limits, stretching, lifting up, lifting down, flipping.

这些行为都是在帮助婴儿探索自身身体的边界，分辨痛苦与愉悦，并建立信任。除了支持你和确保你不会过度疲惫外，你丈夫能做的最重要的事就是和婴儿玩耍。这种玩耍包括我描述的那些互动，但肢体接触对婴儿也极为重要。因此，你丈夫的目标是以双方都享受的方式持续推动婴儿的身体极限——之所以有趣，既因为其中的惊喜元素，也源于逐渐形成的相互理解和由信任产生的纽带。

And all of that is a way to help the baby explore the limits of his or her own physical being, the distinction between pain and pleasure, and to develop trust. Like the most important thing that your husband can do apart from supporting you and making sure you're not burned out and unable to enjoy and be fully engaged in what you're doing is to play with the infant. Now, that play involves the sorts of things I described, but also the physical contact and physical touch is extremely important to infants. And so, the goal of your husband is to push the baby continually to his or her physical limits in a manner that both find enjoyable and What? It's enjoyable because there's an element of fun and surprise to it, but there's also an enjoyment in the mutual understanding that develops and the bond that exists because of the trust.

打个比方，你丈夫将要和婴儿共舞。那些在肢体互动上关注不足的孩子（尤其是三岁左右时），往往表现出注意力涣散、动作笨拙不协调。道家将这种状态视为‘朴’（未经雕琢的原木）。这类孩子的问题在于未被充分关注，未被‘打磨’。

Another way of analogizing it, would say is your husband is going to is going to dance with the baby. One of the things you see with kids that aren't attended to enough physically, especially as they get to be around three, is that they're they're vague in their attention and they're uncoordinated and ungraceful in their movements. The Taoists would regard that as the state of being an uncarved block. And what you see in children like that is they haven't been attended to enough. They haven't been sharpened up.

而全身心关注孩子的父亲会打磨他们：让孩子保持警觉，玩些小把戏确保他们清醒，并以自信嬉戏的方式推动其极限。这让孩子更深刻地理解自己的身体，同时建立起对游戏的强烈热爱，以及信任与冒险的坚实基础。

And men who are attending to their children intensely sharpen them up. They keep them on their toes. They play little tricks on them and they make sure they're awake and they push them to their limit. And they do that in a manner that's confident and playful. That makes the child understand his or her embodiment much more deeply and also establishes an immense love of play and a solid basis for trust and adventure.

这就是男性的角色。至于女性...

And that's a man's role. Now women What can

关于这个，我其实不久前和妈妈聊过，因为我在家工作已经有七八年了。我丈夫也是在家办公。所以很难分清谁该做什么。我发现最实用的分工就是换尿布，想听听你的看法。我也不确定。

about so I'm I had this conversation with mom actually a bit ago because I work from home and I have for seven or eight years. And my husband works from home. And so it's complicated to know who does what. What I've figured out was helpful just more practically, so you can tell me what you think about this, was diaper changes. I don't know.

我感觉你不太喜欢换尿布。

I feel like you weren't a fan of diaper changes.

不介意啊。自从我学会之后就觉得...

No. I didn't mind. Once I learned That was

这特别有帮助，尤其是母乳喂养期间，因为你本来就随时待命围着宝宝转。换尿布虽然耗时不多但确实很实用。她还问每天要换多少次，这个很难说准，但你提到要足够多以免产生怨气，同时还能享受带娃的乐趣。

really helpful, especially if you're breastfeeding because then you're already kind of on call all the time and attached to the baby. Diaper changes were are really helpful. Doesn't take very long, but those were really helpful. And then she asked about how much per day, which is hard to say too, but you mentioned enough so that you're not resentful basically, and that you're still enjoying the baby.

是的。

Yes.

我们觉得至少早晚各分担一点是最低要求。对于居家办公的人来说比较麻烦，因为总觉得'你在隔壁房间干嘛呢？'。我开始觉得累了，可能有点烦躁。其实抽五分钟过来打个招呼也很有帮助。

And we figured that was at least a little bit in the morning, a little bit in the evening, that's minimum. And then I think it's tricky when people work from home because it's kinda like, oh, you're in the other room, what are you doing? I'm starting to get tired. You know, maybe I'm a bit annoyed. And taking like five minute breaks to come say hi is really beneficial too.

我觉得这只是针对妈妈的。

I think this is just for the mom.

也解释一下那个。

Explain that too.

嗯，比如，尤其是照顾小婴儿时，你会感到不堪重负，特别是头三个月睡眠不足的时候，尤其是第一个孩子。嗯。但当宝宝开始哭闹时，你根本没睡好。宝宝也睡不安稳。

Well, like, you get especially with little babies, you get overwhelmed, especially if you're sleep deprived just the first three months, particularly with your first. Mhmm. But after it says, say the baby's fussy. You haven't slept. The baby's not sleeping well.

你正尝试母乳喂养。你不确定他们是否饿了。你完全搞不清状况。你会觉得，我实在抱不住一个哭闹的婴儿。

You're trying to breastfeed. You're not sure if they're hungry. You're just not sure really what's going on. You're like, I can't hold a crying baby.

再也受不了了。再也受不了了。是啊。是啊。嗯，就是就是

Anymore. Anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's that's

这时候你就会想，你能抱会儿孩子吗？就五分钟。我需要喘口气。

the point when you're like, can you take the baby for five minutes? I need to breathe.

是啊。是啊。是啊。你得注意丈夫在前七到九个月的角色，就是要密切关注母亲的状态。食物也有帮助。食物确实有帮助。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That you you have to watch The role of the husband in the first seven nine to nine months is really to keep a really sharp eye on the mother and make Food helps sure that too. Food helps too.

没错。要确保她不被逼到极限。因为她随时待命，睡眠也被打断。所以你必须留意这点。如果她开始流泪、烦躁或易怒——这些情况都会发生——就必须让她休息。

Yes. And make sure that she isn't pushed beyond her limits. That's because she's constantly on call and her sleep is disrupted. So you have to keep an eye on that. And if she gets teary or upset or irritable, and those things will all happen, she has to be spelled off.

是的，这就是你说的‘拼写错误’。完全不明白什么意思。

Yeah. That's what you meant by spelled off. Have no idea what that means.

嗯，嗯。

Yeah. Yeah.

我认为妻子或母亲的角色也包括与丈夫沟通，这样当他们达到极限时，就能直接说‘我现在需要帮助’，而不是暗自崩溃。你不必觉得这是矫情，因为最初那段时期确实非常艰难，尤其是当你独自一人且缺乏帮助时。所以坦然说出‘我撑不住了，需要喘口气’完全没问题。

I think it's also the role of the wife or the mother to communicate with the husband so that when they're at their limit, they go, I need help right now. Instead of knowing that I'm like freaking out. And you're not being needy because the first period of time is really crazy, especially if you're by yourself and you don't have help, kind of. So it's okay to be like, I'm at my limit right now. I need a breather.

其实五分钟的喘息时间就很管用了。除非连这点时间都没有——

And a five minute breather is actually pretty decent. It's when there's no

是啊，但这更多是母亲层面的问题。她必须抵御那种‘我应该百分百享受全天候陪伴孩子’的愧疚感。其实不必，90%的时间能做到就很好了，或者80%，甚至75%也行，对吧？

Yeah, well, that's on the mother's side. Like she has to guard herself against the guilt that says, I should be 100% thrilled to be with my baby all the time. And it's like, no, 90% of the time will do or 80% or 75%, right?

那也已经很多了。

That's still a lot.

确实很多。要知道无论是照顾老人还是病人，特别是长期照护时，你必须确保先照顾好自己。如果长期超负荷运转，最终会力不从心。这时候你甚至会开始滋生怨恨——如果你发现自己易怒又充满怨气，就该和伴侣好好谈谈，判断这究竟是因为作为新手父母还不够成熟（毕竟为人父母需要大量成长），还是你对自己要求过高了。对吧？

It's still a lot, yeah. And she You know, when you're taking care of someone, this goes for the elderly or for people who are ill too, while you're taking care of them, especially if it's a long term arrangement, you have to ensure that you're taking care of yourself because you won't be able to do it effectively in the long run if you're pushed beyond your actual capacity. And that's Well, that's where you start to do things like consider your resentment as well. If you notice that you're irritable and resentful, you want to determine and talk to your partner about whether or not you're just being irresponsible and immature because there's a lot of maturation that has to happen when you're a new parent, or whether you're demanding too much of yourself. Right?

这也是一种错觉。要知道，埃里克·诺伊曼——卡尔·荣格最杰出的学生之一——曾说过，人不应该试图超越真实的自己。他的意思并非‘不该进步’，而是不要自欺欺人地认为自己比实际更优秀，尤其是当你因随时待命而感到烦躁时，这种情绪其实是一种必要的自我保护机制的表现。

That's also a kind of delusion. You know, Eric Neumann, who is Carl Jung's most accomplished student by a lot, said that you shouldn't try to be better than you are. And what he meant by that was not don't improve because you should improve, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're a better person than you actually are, not least because some of that irritation you might feel at being on call constantly is actually a manifestation of a necessary self protective mechanism.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错，同意。

Right. Agreed.

嗯嗯。

Yep. Yep.

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再次强调，请访问shopify.com/jbp。

Again, that's shopify.com/jbp.

下一位来电者。下一位来电者。开始吧。我们有一位来自爱荷华州的来电。

Next caller. Next caller. Let's do it. We have a caller from Iowa.

你好，彼得森医生。我的问题是，我和妻子有三个孩子，年龄在一到七岁之间。问题是，讨论LGBT意识形态的合适年龄或成熟度是什么？

Hello, doctor Peterson. The question I have for you is my wife and I have three kids, between one and seven. And the question is, what is the right age or maturity to discuss LGBT ideologies? Both

的

of

我的兄弟姐妹中有认同LGBT身份的，这确实加速了我们的时间表。有没有办法在不破坏他们童年纯真的情况下讨论这个问题？我们希望这些信息来自作为父母的我们，而不是其他人。我们试图为他们适应世界做准备，并希望成为他们可信赖的信息来源。那么，我们该如何以及何时讨论这个问题？

my siblings identify as LGBT, which has really sped up our timeline. And is there any way to discuss this without ruining their childhood innocence? We want this information to come from us as their parents and not from anybody else. We're trying to prepare them for the world and wanna be a trusted source of information for them. So how and when do we discuss this?

嗯，我会说，作为经验法则，在这种情况下你应该从孩子那里获取线索。考虑到所有因素，你不需要主动提供未被询问的信息。如果你仔细观察孩子，比如当孩子准备好进行如厕训练时，他们会表现出对此类事情的兴趣，这种兴趣可能很微妙，如果你忽视它就会消失，但那就是趁热打铁的好时机。如果你养成与孩子定期沟通的习惯，他们就会主动提出话题，晚餐时间是个很好的选择，因为那是固定的聚会时间，或者睡前，有时父母一方或双方可以花些时间与孩子深入交流。如果你养成在那时提出问题或疑虑的习惯，孩子就有机会向你表达他们的担忧。

Well, I would say as a rule of thumb that you take your cues from your children in a situation like that. It isn't necessary for you, all things considered, to provide information you're not being asked about. Now, if you observe your children carefully, an example might be that when children are ready to be toilet trained, they'll show an interest in such things that's somewhat subtle and will disappear if you ignore it, but that's a good time that's a time to strike when the iron is hot. Your children will bring if you set up a regular habit of communicating with them, and the dinner table is a very good time to do that because that's a regular meeting time, or perhaps before bed, that's sometimes a time when one parent or the other or both can spend some intense communicative time with your kids. If you make a habit of that being the time to bring up issues or concerns or ask questions, then that gives your children an opportunity to bring their concerns to you.

所以我会说，你希望将这种沟通模式培养成习惯，然后从孩子那里获取线索。现在，让我看看能否在LGBT问题上更具体些。我会给你一个总体策略。这是我们在ARC（责任公民联盟）制定的，这个组织是我协助创立的，旨在为现代经典自由主义与保守主义发展愿景。

And so I would say you want to establish that communicative pattern as a habit, and then you wanna take your cues from your children. Now, let's see if I can be more specific about that on the LGBT front. I'll tell you I'll give you an overarching strategy for this. We worked this out at ARC, which is the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. This is a group that I helped found that is trying to develop a vision for a modern classic liberalism and conservatism.

我们与约40位相关方进行了最紧张的谈判，其中不少是同性恋者，可以说是知名人士。这是我们最艰难的讨论，花了大约一年时间才真正解决。以下是我们的做法。

And one of the most tense negotiations we had with the interested parties of about 40 people, a number of whom were gay and quite what would you say? They're well known people. This was the hardest discussion that we had. It took us about a year to really sort it out. And here's how we did it.

我认为这是正确的。我们提出的观点是，每个概念都有一个理想核心，周围环绕着偏离这一理想的同心圆。谈到偏离，我并非指病理学意义上的偏离，而是指探索尝试。从社会和谐与中长期生产力来看，性认同的核心必须是长期一夫一妻制、以子女为中心、忠诚的异性伴侣关系。

And I think it's right. We presented the proposition that every concept has an ideal at the center and concentric rings of deviation from that ideal around it. And by deviation, I also don't mean I don't mean deviation in the necessarily pathological way. I also mean experimentation. The core of sexual identity that's socially harmonious and productive in the medium to long run has to be long term monogamous, committed, child centered, heterosexual couples.

必须如此。为什么呢？因为这是唯一能确保基本满足感、子女稳定成长、代际延续和文化根基的最低限度安排。好了，现在你有了这个核心理想。

It has to be. Well, why? Well, because that's the only arrangement, the minimal arrangement that ensures average contentment, satisfaction, stability for children, propagation into the future, and the foundation for culture. Okay. Now, so now you have the ideal in the center.

这是你插在中心位置的旗帜。但紧接着你会面临另一个难题：究竟谁能完美契合这个理想？答案其实是没有人。

That's the flag you plant in the center. Now you face another conundrum. It's like, okay, well, fine. But who approximates that ideal perfectly? And the answer is really nobody.

没有永远幸福的婚姻。40%到50%的人可能会离婚，单亲家庭比比皆是。还有LGB群体（我暂不纳入T群体，因我认为那已超出合理范畴），以及各种偏离理想形态的关系模式，其中部分确实属于探索性实践。

No marriage is always happy. Forty to fifty percent of people are likely to get divorced. There's no shortage of single parents. And there's the LGB, I'm not going to include the T because that's just going too far in my estimation, Community, there's all sorts of ways we deviate from the ideal. And some of that's a matter of experimentation.

其他家庭形式也可能运作良好。但我要说，离核心理想越远，维持运作和社会融合的难度就越大。这就是元策略。了解这点后，你可以告诉子女：偏离这条道路至少会让你的人生变得极其复杂，同时也会给他人带来困扰。

There are other forms of family that can work. Although I would say the farther you get from that core ideal, the more difficult it is to make it work and to integrate it. And so that's the sort of meta strategy. So then knowing that, you can you can say to your children, look, if you deviate from that path, it's going to be extremely complicated for you at minimum. It's also complicated for everyone else.

如果你自愿承担这种责任，并感到有必要偏离理想，那么请明白这将是艰难且人生中不可避免的。这意味着需要保持耐心与宽容——就像那些处于不同关系形态中的人一样，你也终将偏离理想。对于孩子，我想不出比这更好的解释方式。当然，这需要孩子具备一定的理解能力。

Now, if you're willing to take on that responsibility and you feel compelled by necessity to wander away from the ideal, then understand that that's going to be difficult and also inevitable over the course of your life. And what does that mean? It means have some patience and tolerance because you're gonna deviate from the ideal just like people who occupy different forms of relationship. I don't know a better way to conceptualize that for kids. Now, your kids have to be somewhat sophisticated to understand that.

但我认为，如果让孩子主动提问，你就能判断他们何时准备好接受这些信息。即使是为了让他们对某些意识形态产生'免疫力'，我也不建议操之过急。只要家庭中保持开放沟通，当他们在学校、朋友间或网络上遇到困惑时，自然会来找你答疑。解答到他们满意为止，然后静待下一个问题出现——我想不出比这更好的处理方式了。

But I think if you let them ask the questions, then you'll know when they're ready for the information. I wouldn't act precipitously even to inoculate them, so to speak, against the ideology. If they're disturbed and you've set up the situation so that open communication is possible in the household, and they encounter something at school or among their friends or online that's confusing to them, then they'll bring that to you and you can answer enough so that they're satisfied. And then you can wait for the next questions to arise. I don't really know a better way of dealing with it than that.

我喜欢这个回答。

I like that answer.

我们在ARC小组内达成了共识，这个小组由观点非常多元的人士组成。我们确实在那里达成了共识。这种以中心为核心、周围环绕实验圈的理念，也为系统内留出了灵活操作的空间。对吧？因为人与人之间可以截然不同，但你们仍然需要一个标准。

We managed a consensus among the ARC group, which is composed of people with very diverse viewpoints. We we managed a consensus around there. The the notion of a center with rings of experimentation around it, that also gives you some play in the system. Right? It's because people are people can be quite different from one another and you still need a standard.

这就像是，平均而言，这样效果最好。但就像，我可不是平均水平。也许你也不是。很可能你比自认为的更接近平均水平，你应该祈祷事实确实如此。因为如果你真的与众不同——这里的‘不同’有一种定义是‘特别’。

It's like, on average, this will work best. It's like, but I'm not average. It's like, maybe you're not. Like, probably you're more average than you think and you should pray that that's true. Because if you really are different, like different one definition of different is special.

另一种‘不同’的定义是‘悲惨且注定失败’。对吧？这两者可能并存。也许你确实特别，必须走自己的路，但伙计，偏离正道可是要自担风险的。

Another definition of different is miserable and doomed. Yeah. Right? And those can go together. And maybe you are special and you have to walk your own path, but boy, you walk off the straight narrow path at your own peril.

这并不意味着它不必要。它可能是必要的。

That doesn't mean it isn't necessary. It might be necessary.

而且我觉得孩子们根本不在意。我记得小时候，你经常在特定日子给我们请假。我们会突然在家自学几天。不知道为什么选那些日子，但感觉是为了避开学校里已经开始的一些思想灌输。但朱利安有个要好的朋友，父母是女同性恋。

Also, I don't think kids care. I remember when I was young, and I feel like you used to pull us out on days. We'd have these random homeschool days. I don't know why we were pulled out on certain days, but I feel like it was to avoid certain indoctrination things that were already happening in our school. But Julian had a really good friend whose parents were lesbians.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我真的不觉得有人在意。他们只是觉得‘这不一样’。我们其实也没多想，就觉得这不是一个爸爸和一个妈妈，而是两个妈妈。

I don't think anyone cared, really. They're like, that's different. Like, we didn't really think about it. We're just like, that's not a mom and a dad. It's a mom and a mom.

大概就是这样。

That was about it.

这也是我所谈论的那种包容。我认为这在1990年代的加拿大非常典型。是的，我们当时已经建立了社会基础，而现在进步人士声称他们正致力于此。

That's also the kind of tolerance that I'm talking about. And I think that that's quite that was very typical in Canada in the 1990s. Yeah. Like the basic we had already established the social milieu that the progressives now claim to be aiming at.

哦，我知道。没人在乎。而且破坏——不，实际上是我破坏了它，因为现在我们不再拥有那种包容了。现在我们变得更不宽容了。

Oh, I know. Nobody cared. And destroy no. Actually, I just destroyed it because now we don't have that anymore. Now we're less tolerant.

但为什么呢？特别是在我们住的地方，没人在乎。没人在乎你是不是黑人，没人在乎你是不是亚裔，甚至没人真正注意到这些，尤其是孩子们。

But why? Lived we where we lived in particular, no one cared. No one cared if you were black. No one cared if you were Asian. No one even really noticed, especially the kids.

没人在乎你是不是同性恋。当时的规则是别太烦人，心怀善意，大家就能和睦相处，而这确实有效。然后到了2010年左右，一切都乱套了，很多这样的包容都瓦解了。在你们小时候，我就开始看到一些苗头，但主要还是……

No one cared if you were gay. The rule was don't be too annoying and assume goodwill and everyone will get along, and that worked. And then well, then all hell broke loose around 2010, and that all much of that fell apart. And I could see some of that starting to happen when you guys were kids, but mostly

在2000年。

In 2000.

你也是在一个相当进步的环境中长大的。我是说

You were also raised in quite a progressive milieu. I mean

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

你上的是另类学校。我们住的社区充斥着香槟社会主义者，这些在2016年之前对我来说都不是问题。真的。然后事情就开始不对劲了，你懂吗？

You went to alternative schools. The neighborhood we lived in was champagne socialist, like and none of that was none of that was a problem for me until 2016 Yeah. Even. And then, it went sideways. You know?

那是肯定的。

That's for sure.

我们都听过一些常见谬论，比如人类只用了10%的大脑，但这里有个可能会让你震惊的事实：支数其实是人们在购买床单时深信的一大误区。支数仅仅是织物密度的衡量标准，实际上并不能很好地反映质量。如果你真正想要优质的床单，应该关注纱线质量而非支数。这就是为什么Bohlen Branch专注于使用最高品质的有机棉纱线，打造出经久耐用且越洗越柔软的床单，而不是依赖支数来打动顾客。

We've all heard common myths like we only use 10% of our brains, but here's one that might actually shock you. Thread count is a huge myth that people believe when shopping for sheets. Thread count is simply a measure of fabric density and isn't actually a good indicator of quality. If you truly want great sheets, you need to look at thread quality, not count. That's why Bohlen Branch focuses on using the highest quality organic cotton threads, creating long lasting sheets that actually get softer over time rather than relying on thread count numbers to impress customers.

Boland品牌床单采用最优质的100%有机棉制成，柔软透气且耐用的编织工艺让你从触摸瞬间就能感受到品质。更特别的是，它们会随着每次洗涤变得越来越柔软，而非逐渐磨损。三十天无忧保证让你零风险体验这份非凡舒适，确保你会爱上这些高端床单如何改变你的睡眠体验。跟你说个事，前阵子我去露营，帐篷里热得不行，当时我简直迫不及待想回到我的Boland Branch床单上睡个好觉。

Boland brand sheets are crafted from the finest 100% organic cotton in a soft breathable and durable weave that delivers quality you can feel from the moment you touch them. What makes them even more special is they become softer with every wash improving over time rather than wearing down. With their thirty night worry free guarantee, you can experience this exceptional comfort risk free ensuring you'll love how these premium sheets transform your sleep experience. I gotta tell you a little while ago I was camping, I was in a tent, it was hot. I could not wait to get back to my Boland Branch sheets for a good night sleep.

感受Boland Branch带来的非凡睡眠体验。首单床单套装可享15%折扣加免运费，访问bolandbranch.com/peterson即可获取。就是Boland Branch，b0llandbranch.com/peterson，立省15%并解锁免运费。部分条款适用。

Feel the difference an extraordinary night sleep can make with Boland Branch. Get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bolandbranch.com/peterson. That's Boland Branch, b0llandbranch.com/peterson to save 15% off and unlock free shipping. Some exclusions do apply.

我们有一段来自中国北京观众的预录电话，这很酷。

We have a prerecorded call from a viewer in Beijing, China. So that's cool.

是啊，是啊，我很期待这个。

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to that.

我叫米奇尼亚，来自罗马尼亚，妻子来自印度。我们住在中国北京，有两个在北京出生的儿子，年龄分别是两岁和四岁。

My name is Michnia. I'm from Romania, and my wife is from India. We live in Beijing, China. We have two boys who were born in Beijing. Their ages are two and four.

孩子们持有罗马尼亚护照。家里有三种语言：占主导地位的英语、罗马尼亚语，以及住家保姆说的中文。孩子们就读于一所英国学校，我也在那里当老师。我们会庆祝印度、罗马尼亚和中国三种文化的所有节日。我的问题如下：

The children have Romanian passports. We have three home languages, English, which is dominant, Romanian by language, and Chinese spoken by the live in babysitter. The children go to a British school where I also work as a teacher. We celebrate holidays and festivals of all three cultures, Indian, Romanian, and Chinese. My question is as follows.

鉴于我的孩子们在多元文化环境中成长，受到印度、英国、中国和罗马尼亚文化的影响，作为父母，我们如何在保留每种文化独特价值的同时，确保他们形成强烈的个人身份认同？

Given that my children are growing up in a multicultural environment with influences from Indian, British, Chinese, and Romanian cultures, how can we, as parents, best navigate the balance between preserving the unique values of each culture and ensuring they develop a strong sense of personal identity?

真酷，三种语言，做得很好。

That's cool. Three languages. Good job.

我想首先问问你和妻子是如何协调的。不，这是个非常难的问题，因为多元文化主义带来了多样性的优势，比如多元化和不同观点，但也带来了概念和伦理层面的混乱与冲突。有人将多元文化主义定义为巴尔干化，那是持续战争的前兆。所以，认为多样性必然带来融合的人绝对是愚蠢的——显然事实并非如此。

I guess I would ask to begin with how you and your wife negotiate that. No, that's a very hard question because multiculturalism brings the advantage of diversity, let's say, and that's multiplicity and difference of opinion and the disadvantage of confusion and conflict on the conceptual and ethical side. And so, one definition of multiculturalism is Balkanization and that's the precursor to continual war. And so, those who think that diversity brings integration are by necessity are absolute fools. Obviously, that isn't the case.

在一个家庭中如何协调这件事？你的孩子有机会学习不同语言，并接触多元文化影响。如果他们发展良好，我会把这个问题留到他们青少年时期。如果那时这成为他们的问题——如果被不同文化拉扯成为困扰——他们就需要自我教育，学习如何构建一个整合的文化视野。据我所知，这方面最好的思想资源是围绕卡尔·荣格和宗教历史学家米尔恰·伊利亚德形成的学派。

How do you negotiate that in a household? Your children have the opportunity to learn these different languages and they're exposed to a variety of different cultural influences. If they're thriving, then I would leave that question alone until they're in their teen years. And then I would say if that becomes an issue for them, if the fact that they're pulled in multiple directions by their different cultures becomes an issue, then they'll have to educate themselves in relationship to how an integrated vision of culture might be formulated. And the best sources I know for that endeavor are the thinkers in the school that aggregated around Carl Jung and Mircea Eliada, who was a Romanian historian of religions.

这个心理学、社会学和历史研究学派试图做的，是绘制不同宗教与神圣体系间的共同模式图谱。要知道，这件事有着非常深远的思想先例——西方文明的诞生正是因为希腊哲学传统与犹太教先知律法传统的神奇融合，这两者的结合奠定了西方传统的基础。在希腊，你看到的是'逻各斯'概念的出现。

And what that school of psychological, sociological, and historical investigators attempted to do was to map out the commonalities of pattern across different religious and sacred systems. Now, you see, there's a there's a precursor to this, precedent for this that's very, very deep. Western civilization arose because the philosophical tradition of Greece mapped strangely onto the prophetic and legal tradition of Judaism. And the synthesis of those two really laid the groundwork for the Western tradition. And what you saw in Greece was the emergence of a conceptualization of logos.

而在基督教中，你同样看到了'逻各斯'概念的平行显现。事实证明，这两者间的平行性使它们得以融合。荣格学派——伊利亚德参与并领导的学派——寻求的正是这种跨越更广泛文化传统的深层整合。在我所知的思想家中，没有比这个学派更能统合这种多样性了。我在《意义之图》和《与神角力者》中的工作，以及正在撰写的新书《世界根基》（对福音故事的解析）都延续着这种整合传统。

And you saw a parallel emergence of a conceptualization of logos, particularly in Christianity. And it turned out that there was a parallelism between those two that allowed them to be amalgamated. Now, the Jungian school, the school that Eliada was a part of and a leader of, were looking at a synthesis of that sort that was deep across an even broader range of cultural traditions. And I don't know of any thinkers that did a better job of pulling together across that diversity than that school. I would like to think that the work that I've done, particularly in my book Maps of Meaning in We Who Wrestle With God, I'm working on that as well in a new book called The Foundation of the World, which is an analysis of the gospel stories, a continuation of that integration tradition.

你问的是一个非常困难的问题：如何从截然不同的文化传统中提炼和谐？你需要寻找深层的共性，但必须深入信仰结构底层才能发现这些共性——而且你找到的不会只有共性。这本质上和'如何从多神教状态发展出一神教'是同一个量级的问题，这些问题的解答往往需要文化历经数千年演化。

See, you're asking a very difficult question, which is how do you bring harmony out of radically different cultural traditions? And what you look for is profound commonalities, but you have to go way down into the structure of the beliefs to find those commonalities. And you won't only find commonalities. So, this is a massive You're asking the same question as how do you bring a monotheism out of a polytheistic state? These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.

因此，仅凭个人生命历程完成这种整合极其困难。如果你感到有责任这样做，我认为没有比上述学派著作更好的知识源泉了。荣格的著作、伊利亚德的著作、波林根学派的成果——他们才是真正做好这件事的人，与那些将彻底碎片化和多样性作为终极目标的后现代主义者截然不同。你希望为孩子构建的是整合的、根基性的文化认知。这是个复杂的答案，但这个问题本就没有简单解法。

And so, it's very difficult to do something like that in the span of your own life. If you feel obligated or required to do that, I don't know of a better source of information than the writings of the school that I just described. Carl Jung's works, Merchant Eliade's works, the work of the Bolingen School, they're the people who did this properly as opposed to the postmodernists who just accepted radical fractionation and diversity as the desired end goal, which is clearly not the case for you. You want something to emerge for your children that's integrated and foundational. So that's a complicated answer, but there's no simple way of addressing that question.

最后确认一点：你认为这是绝对必要的吗？还是可以等孩子长大再说？因为我见过很多文化背景深厚的人把这种压力转嫁给孩子，就像在强调'你必须认同我的文化根源'。作为加拿大人，我几乎觉得自己没有特定文化背景。

Do you think just to wrap this up. Yep. Do you think it's absolutely necessary? Or can you just wait until the kid's old enough? Because what I've seen from people, especially who have very strong backgrounds, is putting that on their kid, which is like, do you need to make them I'm Canadian, so I almost feel like I don't have a culture.

对我来说这种感觉很模糊。虽然我对家族起源有过兴趣，但并没有强烈的文化归属牵引。你认为必须要有这种文化牵引力吗？还是说可以让孩子自行探索？

I feel like that's kinda like it just doesn't really feel like that to me. And I was interested in my background, I guess, like where we originated, but there wasn't a strong pull in any direction. Do you need a strong pull in any direction or can you just figure it out yourself?

嗯，你不需要解决不存在的问题。对，没错。就像我对提问者说的，如果他的孩子们过得很好，那就顺其自然。我们目前只需做好当下需要做的事。

Well, you don't need to solve a problem you don't have. Yeah. Right. And so, as I said to the questioner, if his children are thriving, just leave it be. Like, we are doing whatever needs to be done right for the moment.

如果随着他们成长，这成为问题并引发担忧，那就到时候再解决。我试图列出在这项努力中特别有用的资源。在流行文化中，人们主要通过约瑟夫·坎贝尔的作品找到这种融合的路径，对吧？他关于英雄神话的研究。因为在最深层次上，似乎能将不同文化联结起来的是——各种人类文化的传统叙事都具有类似英雄旅程的结构，这正是坎贝尔擅长普及的内容。

If it becomes an issue as they mature and that's something that becomes a area of concern for them, well, then you cross that bridge when you come to it. What I tried to lay out was the sources that would be particularly useful in that endeavor. In more popular culture, people have found their path to this kind of integration primarily through the work of Joseph Campbell, right? And his work on the hero myth. Because one of the things that seems to unite cultures at a very deep level is that the traditions, the traditional narratives of diverse human cultures have a structure that approximates the journey of the hero that Campbell was so good at popularizing.

后现代主义者否认这点，但他们不过是一群腐败自私的虚无主义者。顺便说，这也是一种解决问题的方式——当你面临多重道德叙事困境时，你可以将其碎片化并选择当下最便利的那个。这不是好方法，但确实是过去五十年学术界决定采用的方案。这就是文化战争的原因之一。所以别那么做。后现代主义的定义特征，按其创始人让-弗朗索瓦·利奥塔的说法是'对元叙事的怀疑'。

Now, the postmodern types deny that, but they're a pack of corrupt and self serving nihilists. And that is one way, by the way, that is one way of solving the problem, is that if you're faced with the conundrum of multiple competing moral narratives, you can just fractionate and pick whichever one's convenient for you at the moment. That is not a good solution, but that's certainly the solution that the academics of the world in the last fifty years have decided that they were going to adopt. That's why we have a culture war, one of the reasons we have a culture So, don't do that. Well, the defining characteristic of postmodernism, this is from Jean Francois Lyotard, who was a founder of postmodernism is he said, Postmodernism is skepticism towards meta narratives.

这其实反映了尼采所说的'上帝之死'。他的意思是：根本不存在至高无上的统一叙事，只有一堆碎片化的微观叙事供人们栖身。好吧，那如果这些微观叙事相互冲突呢？

And what he meant, this is a reflection of the Nietzschean death of God. What he meant was, well, there is no paramount uniting narrative. There's just a bunch of fractionated narratives that people can micro narratives that people can inhabit. It's like, okay, fair enough. But what do you do if the micro narratives compete?

它们确实会冲突，明显会冲突。结果就是你会困惑、焦虑、失去方向，然后变得权力狂热，最终引发战争。

Which they do, which they clearly do. It's like, well, you get confused and you get anxious and you get aimless and then you get power mad, and then you go to war.

加州就会出现暴乱者。

You get rioters in California.

对。对。没错。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

感谢大家的参与。希望你们喜欢，未来我们会回来解答更多问题。

Thanks for joining us. We hope you enjoyed, and we'll be back to answer many more questions in the future.

非常感谢，米克。

Thanks a lot, Mick.

谢谢你，爸爸。是的。

Thank you, dad. Yep.

是的。也感谢提问的各位。你们有希望我们探讨的问题吗？通过视频描述中的链接分享给我们，让我们一起面对生活的挑战。

Yep. And to our questioners, much appreciated. Do you have a question you'd like us to explore? Share it with us at the link in the video's description, and let's face life's challenges together.