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先生
Mr.
拉普先生，如果您能认真听问题并直接回答，事情会顺利得多。
Rapp, this will all go a lot better if you listen to the question and just answer the question.
结果证明那是错的，对吧？
That turned out to be wrong, didn't it?
我不知道该怎么回答这个问题。
I don't know how to answer the question.
我没有权限了解那件事。
I'm not privy to that.
你是不是想故意含糊其辞，说‘我不知道’？
Did you want to be able to remain deliberately vague and say, I don't know.
这是一种人格障碍，表现为个体以自我为中心、自大、善于操纵，倾向于把注意力吸引到自己身上。
It's a personality disorder characterized by an individual who is self centered, grandiose, manipulative, who tends to want to move the spotlight onto him or her.
那是唯一的文件记录。
That's the only documentation.
我没有可供参考的文件。
I don't have any documentation to refer to.
这全凭我的记忆。
It's my memory.
欢迎收看过滤频道播出的凯文·史派西审判案。
Welcome to the Kevin Spacey trial on Filtered.
这是第七集：压力下的告发。
This is episode seven, Rap Under Pressure.
我的名字是安妮·麦克埃尔尼。
My name is Anne McElhenny.
五年前，安东尼·拉普指控演员凯文·史派西在自己年仅14岁时对其实施性侵，从而终结了史派西的职业生涯。
Five years previously, Anthony Rapp had ended Kevin Spacey's career, alleging the actor had sexually assaulted him when he was just 14.
自那以后，史派西成了社会弃儿。
Since then, Spacey had become a social pariah.
随着更多指控者现身，他在美国和英国面临刑事和民事诉讼。
And as other complainants emerged, he faced criminal and civil charges in The US and UK.
然而，其中两起案件在进入法庭前就已撤诉。
However, two of these cases collapsed before they reached court.
拉普斯的案件是第一个进入陪审团审理的。
Rapps was the first to make it to a jury.
拉普斯表示，他很高兴能在法庭上讲述自己的故事。
Rapps said he was pleased to tell his story in court.
但当Spacey的律师珍妮弗·凯勒试图拆穿他的叙述时，他还会感到欣慰吗？
But would he remain pleased as Spacey's lawyer, Jennifer Keller, tried to tear his story apart?
我们已经听到对拉普斯关于性侵事件描述的质疑。
We've already heard there were questions about Rapp's account of the assault.
他将如何回应这些质疑？
How would he answer those questions?
陪审团会相信他吗？
And would the jury believe him?
凯勒的策略与拉普斯自己的律师不同，后者提出的是宽泛、开放性的问题，让他能自由给出自己想要的答案。
Keller's approach was different from Rapp's own lawyers, who asked broad, open questions, allowing him to give the answers he wanted.
另一方面，凯勒的质询持续数小时，逐字逐句地 scrutinize 每个细节。
Keller's questioning, on the other hand, was hours of interrogation pouring over every detail.
拉普曾向 BuzzFeed 新闻的一位朋友讲述过他的故事。
Rapp had told his story to a friend at BuzzFeed News.
他接受过友好记者的采访，也在领取奖项时发表过演讲。
He had given interviews to friendly journalists, and he had given speeches as he accepted awards.
随后，他的法庭作证起初很轻松，因为他的律师提出了许多简单的问题。
Then his court appearance had started off easy when his lawyers threw him softball questions.
交叉质询则会完全不同。
The cross examination would be different.
这是拉普的故事首次接受细致的证据审查。
This was the first time Rapp's story would be forensically questioned.
不会有轻松的问题，也没有留下任何戏剧性或情感发挥的空间。
There would be no softball questions and no room for drama or emotion.
他的故事必须经得起事实的检验。
His story would have to stand up against the facts.
拉普不仅需要表现出一个令人同情的受害者，还需要成为一个可信的证人。
Rapp would have to come off as not only a sympathetic victim, but a credible witness as well.
可信度是他需要守护的。
The credibility was his to lose.
凯文·史派西已经整整五年没有工作了，人们普遍认为他一定做了什么坏事，无风不起浪。
Kevin Spacey hadn't really worked in five years, and it was just generally assumed that he had done something wrong, that there was no smoke without fire.
我确实曾认为他犯了某种罪行。
I certainly had thought he was guilty of something.
人们普遍认为，大多数人，尤其是男性，不会谎称自己遭受性侵，他们肯定不希望引起公众关注和高调的审判。
There is also a general assumption that most people, particularly men, would not lie about being sexually assaulted They would certainly not want publicity and a high profile trial.
但这些假设即将受到检验，尤其是在安东尼·拉普接受交叉质询时。
But these assumptions were to be tested, particularly as Anthony Rapp's cross examination got underway.
拉普多次声称不记得发生在近期而非几十年前的事件的地点和对话内容。
Rapp claimed dozens of times not to remember locations and conversations about events that happened not decades ago, but in the recent past.
从一开始，很难判断这些记忆缺失对拉普是利是弊。
It was hard to tell from the outset how these memory lapses would work for RAP.
一方面，声称不记得某些事件或对话并不会让你陷入法律麻烦。
On the one hand, you can't get in legal trouble for claiming you don't remember events or conversations.
没有人能证明你在说谎。
No one can prove you lied.
然而，不断声称记不住重要事件，在寻求答案的怀疑陪审团看来，可能会显得回避问题。
However, constantly claiming you can't remember significant events can look evasive to a skeptical jury looking for answers.
而在一个仅凭‘他说 vs 他否认’的案件中，这是个巨大的问题。
And that's a massive problem in a case that boils down to he said he denied.
拉普正在为一起他声称记忆清晰的事件索赔四千万美元，而那件事发生在将近三十五年前。
Rapp is going after $40,000,000 for an incident he claims to have perfect memory of that happened almost thirty five years ago.
在如此多的‘我不记得’和错误陈述面前，陪审员们不得不怀疑：既然他连自己声称近期发生的戏剧性事件的基本细节都记不住，又怎能信任他对三十多年前事件的记忆？
With so many 'I don't recall' and incorrect assertions, the jurors had to be wondering how they could trust his memory from over three decades ago when he couldn't even remember basic details of dramatic incidents he said happened in the recent past.
凯勒首先抓住了拉普一个简单却重要的矛盾之处。
Keller started by catching rap in a simple but significant discrepancy.
还记得他那感人至深的陈述吗？他说自己在读到女演员露皮塔·尼永奥在《纽约时报》上关于她被哈维·韦恩斯坦性骚扰经历的文章后，受到鼓舞才决定公开现身。
Remember his dramatic and moving account of how he was inspired to go public after reading actress Lupita Nyong'o's New York Times essay about her experiences of being sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein.
那是一个安静的时刻，我坐在纽约公寓的窗边，阅读《纽约时报》上卢皮塔·尼永奥分享的她多年来遭遇哈维·韦恩斯坦的经历。
It was a quiet moment sitting by my window in my apartment in New York City, reading The New York Times, Lupita Nyong'o's story that she shared about her experiences with Harvey Weinstein over the years.
但通过证据开示，斯派西的律师得以获取了拉普的电子邮件和短信记录。
But thanks to discovery, Spacey's lawyers were able to get access to RAP's emails and text messages.
他们发现，拉普实际上在尼永奥的文章发表前一周多就联系了记者亚当·瓦里。
And they showed RAP had actually reached out to journalist Adam Vary over a week before Nyong'o's article was published.
尼永奥的这篇文章并不是触发因素。
Nyong'o's essay hadn't been the catalyst.
詹妮弗·凯勒在交叉质询中就这一点对他进行了严厉质问。
Jennifer Keller grilled him on this point when he was under cross examination.
以下是这一场景的重现。
Here's a reenactment of how that went.
到10月13日，也就是《纽约时报》刊登尼永奥女士文章的五天前，瓦里先生告诉你，BuzzFeed的所有人都希望你的故事能产生最大的影响力。
So by October 13, five days before the New York Times published Ms.
尼永奥女士的文章，瓦里先生告诉你，BuzzFeed的所有人都希望你的故事能产生最大的影响力。
Nyong'o's article, mister Vary told you that everyone at BuzzFeed wanted to be sure your story had the strongest impact possible.
是吗？
Is that right?
他是这么说的吗？
Is that what he said?
是的。
Yes.
总之，你2018年的获奖致辞并不真实，你在致辞中称Nyong'o女士是你的灵感来源，并说在那一刻你决定站出来，并立即联系了Vary先生，但这些都不是真的，对吧？
Well, bottom line is your acceptance speech in 2018 was not truthful, was acceptance speech where you cited Ms.
Nyong'o女士是你的灵感来源，并说在那一刻你决定站出来，并立即联系了Vary先生，但这些都不是真的，对吧？
Nyong'o as having been your inspiration and recalling that at that very moment you decided to come forward and you had immediately contacted Mr.
这些都不是真的，对吧？
Vary, none of that was true, was it?
这是我回想起当时事情发展时的记忆。
It was how I remembered the events unfolding when I thought back on them.
但那些事情并不是发生在31年前，对吧？
But the events weren't 31 years old, were they?
每当她向拉普提出质疑他事件叙述的事实时，他只是声称自己不可能撒谎，因为那就是他记忆中的样子。
Whenever she confronted Rapp with facts that called his version of events into question, He just claimed he could not be lying because that was how he remembered it.
拉普显然认为自己的记忆是神圣不可侵犯的，不受外界或可验证事实的影响。
Rapp apparently viewed his memories as sacrosanct, unable to be touched by the outside world or verifiable facts.
不知为何，他似乎相信自己的记忆和事实可以同时为真，即使它们相互矛盾。
And somehow he seemed to believe that his memories and the facts could be true at the same time, even if they contradicted each other.
以下是凯勒提出的理论，解释了为什么拉普将自己与尼永奥联系在一起。
Here's Keller putting forward a theory for why Rap hitched his wagon to Nyong'o.
你认为，说自己受到一位真正遭受性骚扰的黑人超级巨星女演员的启发而站出来，会显得很感人，对吧？
You thought it would be poignant to say you were inspired to come forward by a superstar Black actress who had actually been sexually harassed, right?
我觉得这并不感人。
I did not think it was poignant.
我觉得这只是发生了的事情。
I thought it was what has happened.
这对你是有好处的。
It would be useful for you.
你会得到更多的同情，不是吗？
You would get more sympathy, wouldn't you?
不会。
No.
我只是在分享我对当时发生事情的记忆。
I was sharing my memory of how it happened.
一段非常戏剧性的记忆。
A very dramatic memory.
对吧？
Right?
一段非常个人的记忆。
A very personal memory.
所以当你声称自己受到打击、受到启发，并在当天立即联系了韦尔先生时，你说错了。
So you were wrong when you said that you were struck and inspired and immediately that day called mister Very.
那不是真的，对吧？
That wasn't true, was it?
那些努力的顺序并不属于那个时期，那并不是真的。
It wasn't true that that sequence of efforts that was in it was part of that time.
我不是在问这个。
I'm not asking that.
我明白了。
I understand.
拉普先生，如果您能认真听问题并直接回答，一切都会顺利得多。
Mister Rapp, this will all go a lot better if you listen to the question and just answer the question.
你因为露皮塔·尼永奥的文章而现身，并且在同一天读完后立即联系了亚当·瓦里，因为你知道自己必须站出来——这并不是真的。
It wasn't true that you came forward because of the Lupita Nyong'o article and that the same day you read it, you contacted Adam Vary because you knew you had to come forward.
那不是真的，对吧？
That wasn't true, was it?
那不是真的。
That was not true.
凯勒说，这一点在两个方面都是胜利。
Keller said this point was a win on two fronts.
这引发了对拉普记忆和可信度的质疑，同时也激怒了陪审团成员，他们反感他窃取了一位黑人受害者的痛苦并据为己有。
It called into doubt Rapp's memory and credibility and also antagonized members of the jury who resented him stealing the pain of a black victim and taking it for himself.
不。
No.
我特别认为，陪审团中有两位非常聪明、非常精明的黑人女性。
I particularly think we had two very bright and very savvy black women on the jury.
其中一位我认为是纽约与新泽西港务局的人力资源主管。
One of them I think was head of HR for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
另一位也是一位非常负责任的职业女性。
The other one had also a very responsible professional woman.
我认为她们两人——我的感觉是，这只是我的感觉，因为我能看到她们的表情——心里想：天啊，真的吗？
And I think the two of them, my sense, and it was just my sense, because I could see their facial expressions, that it was like, Oh my gosh, you know, really?
真的吗？
Really?
你竟然要利用这位年轻而杰出的黑人女性来达成你的目的。
You're gonna co opt this young, brilliant black woman for your purposes.
你打算抢走她的风头。
You're gonna try to steal her thunder.
你知道的。
You know?
你要把她的风头变成自己的。
You're gonna make it your thunder.
当凯勒具体提问时，拉普试图用大量无关的细节来回应。
When Keller got specific, Rapp tried to answer with lots of irrelevant details.
这再次引发了卡普兰法官的训斥。
This again prompted a reprimand from judge Kaplan.
这种情况发生了许多次。
It happened many times.
这是一个例子，当凯勒问他约翰·巴罗曼1986年时的样子时。
This is an example when Keller asked him about how John Barrowman looked back in 1986.
他来看你的时候，就是长这个样子吗？
Is that how he looked at the time he came to visit you?
我不认为他来看我的时候没穿西装打领带。
I don't he wasn't wearing a suit and tie when he came to visit me.
我不确定他的头发怎么样。
I'm I'm not sure his hair
听着，先生，Wrap。
Look, mister Wrap.
如果你真的认为她在问衣服的事，那你说得对。
If you really thought she was asking about the clothing, then you're exactly right.
但请尽量直接回答问题。
But try to be responsive to the question.
好吗？
Okay?
好的。
Okay.
你认为那是一场演出后的聚会，许多不同的百老汇剧组会在那里吃饭和交流。
You considered that to be a post show gathering at which many different Broadway casts would eat and mingle.
对。
Correct.
最终，在整个晚上的过程中。
Ultimately, in the course of the whole evening.
等一下。
Just a minute.
Wrap先生，这里的工作是Keller小姐提问，你听问题，然后回答问题，而不是随意添加你脑子里想到的任何东西。
Mister Wrap, the job here is for miss Keller to ask the questions, for you to listen to them, and you to answer them, not to add whatever comes through your mind about it.
明白吗？
Okay?
明白。
Okay.
你的律师稍后会有充足的时间再次对你进行质询。
Your lawyer will have plenty of time to examine you again later.
好的。
Okay.
他声称自己完全不记得的其中一个话题，是他在接受BuzzFeed文章采访期间是否向亚当·瓦里透露过某些内容。
One of the topics he claimed to have no memory of was what he did or didn't tell Adam Vary during his interviews for the BuzzFeed article.
其中一个细节是杰克·莱蒙，他本会是拉普和巴雷曼试图 backstage 的最大吸引力。
One of these details was Jack Lemmon, who would have been the biggest draw for Rapp and Barreman to try to get backstage.
文章中并未提及莱蒙，凯勒想知道原因。
There's no mention of Lemmon in the article, and Keller wanted to know why.
看来拉普在庭审前甚至没有试图回忆，声称自己都不记得上次读这篇文章是什么时候了。
It seems Rapp didn't even try to refresh his memory before the court case, claiming he didn't even know when last he even read the article.
你2017年告诉记者朋友亚当·瓦里的故事，和现在完全不一样，对吧？
You told your friend, the reporter, Adam Vary, a very different story in 2017, didn't you?
我不记得了。
I don't recall.
你在BuzzFeed文章中完全没提过曾进入后台或见过杰克·莱蒙和凯文·史派西。
You omitted any mention of ever going backstage or meeting Jack Lemmon and Kevin Spacey.
你在BuzzFeed文章中完全没提过这件事，对吧？
You omitted any mention of that in the BuzzFeed article, right?
我不记得了。
I don't recall.
你最后一次看 BuzzFeed 文章是什么时候？
When is the last time you looked at the BuzzFeed article?
那是你第一次说出你的故事。
That is the first time you came forward with your story.
很多年前了。
Years ago.
我不记得最后一次读这篇文章是什么时候了。
I don't recall the last time I read the article.
凯勒明确询问，为什么他在明知文章将在庭审中被提及的情况下，却没有去重温 BuzzFeed 文章的内容。
Keller pointedly asked why he hadn't refreshed his memory of the BuzzFeed article when it was obvious it was going to come up at trial.
你知道这篇文章会在本次审判中被提及，有多久了，不是吗？
And how many years you knew that that article was going to come up in this trial, didn't you?
我什么都不知道。
I didn't know anything.
我假设这是有可能的。
I assumed it was possible.
好吧，你知道它在你的证词中出现过，对吧？
Well, you knew it had come up in your deposition, right?
我相信是的。
I believe so.
你在这里作证前重新阅读了你的证词吗？
You reread your deposition before testifying here?
是的。
Yes.
你知道你的证词中特别关注了这一点。
You knew it had been focused on in your deposition.
对吧？
Right?
正确。
Correct.
所以你知道它会在审判中被提及。
And so you knew it was going to come up at the trial.
你告诉我，你从未花时间查看过这篇文章？
You're telling me you never bothered to review the article?
在这个过程中的某个时候，我重新阅读了这篇文章。
I reread the article at some point in this process.
我不记得具体是什么时候了。
I don't recall exactly when.
当涉及到巴尔曼和斯派西的调情时，拉普的记忆缺失再次显现，而他们两人都现在确认了这一情况确实发生过。
Rapp's lack of memory showed up again when it came to Barman and Spacey's flirtation, which both of them were now confirming had occurred.
你一直说那是我的记忆。
You keep saying that is my recollection.
巴尔曼先生的说法有没有改变你的记忆？
Has mister Barrowman's story in any way changed your recollection?
它并没有改变我的记忆。
It it hasn't changed my recollection.
我也有同样的记忆。
I have the same recollection.
我不质疑他的说法。
I don't dispute his story.
我只是不记得了。
I just do not remember it.
那你现在完全不记得这件事，但也不打算质疑它？
And you have no current recollection of it, but you're not going to dispute it?
没错。
Correct.
在拉普的证词中，他曾表示斯派西在‘聚光灯’之夜后对巴曼表现出跟踪似的行为。
There was a point in Rapp's deposition where he said Spacey exhibited stalker like behavior towards Barman after the night at the limelight.
问题是，巴曼完全否认了这一点，反而说是他给斯派西送了花，并享受斯派西打给他家里的电话。
The problem was Barman totally denied this, and in fact said it was he who sent Spacey flowers and enjoyed the calls Spacey made to his family home.
你说过，巴曼先生。
Well, you said that Mr.
Spacey曾给Berriman先生送过不受欢迎的花，对吧？
Spacey had sent unwanted flowers to Mr.
是的，对吧？
Berriman, right?
我记得Barrowman先生告诉我的就是这样的。
That was my memory of what mister Barrowman told me.
但你对Barrowman先生所说内容的记忆竟然完全相反了，不是吗？
Well, your memory of what mister Barrowman told you turned out to be backwards, didn't it?
有可能。
It's possible.
你是不是也说过，Spacey先生曾经在乔利埃特给Beroman先生的家里打过不受欢迎的电话？
Did you also said that mister Spacey was making unwanted phone calls to mister Beroman's home back in Joliet.
对吧？
Right?
这就是我记得的Beroman先生告诉我的内容。
That is my memory of what mister Beroman shared with me.
结果证明那是错的，对吧？
That turned out to be wrong, didn't it?
我不知道那件事。
I don't know that.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道那件事结果是错的。
I don't know that that turned out to be wrong.
贝罗曼先生实际上很享受太空先生打来的电话，他的父母也是，尤其是他母亲。
Mister Berroman actually enjoyed the calls from mister Spacey, and so did his parents, especially his mother.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道该怎么回答这个问题。
I I don't know how to answer the question.
我并不了解那方面的情况。
I'm not privy to that.
除了回忆之外，就这些了吗？
Other than searching your memory, that's it?
你就只做了这些？
That's all you've done?
这是唯一的书面记录。
That's the only documentation.
我没有可以参考的书面记录。
I don't have any documentation to refer to.
全靠我的记忆。
It's my memory.
我没有可以参考的书面记录。
I don't have any documentation to refer to.
全靠我的记忆？
It's my memory?
拉普的案子几乎完全基于他的记忆。
Rapp's case was almost completely based on his memory.
随着矛盾事实不断出现，他的记忆一次又一次地出了问题。
And that was failing him time and again as contradictory facts emerged.
记忆当然可能出错，但拉普似乎下定决心不去澄清任何矛盾或疑问。
Memories can be faulty, of course, but Rapp seemed to have a commitment to not trying to clear up any contradictions or questions.
他说他从未尝试过搜索莫莉·林沃德出现在《莱特曼秀》上的时间，而那本可以给他提供所谓性侵事件的确切日期。
He said he never tried to Google when Molly Ringwald was on The Letterman Show, which would have given him the exact date of his alleged assault.
午休后，凯勒试图就《BuzzFeed》文章问他更多问题，但结果发现他仍然没有重新阅读过这篇文章。
After the lunch break, Keller tried to ask him more questions about the BuzzFeed article, but it turned out he still hadn't reread it.
我不知道这一点。
I don't know that.
我没有读完整篇文章。
I didn't read the whole article.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你中午有没有读一遍文章，只是为了回忆一下？
Did you read it over the noon hour just to refresh your memory?
我没有。
I did not.
为什么呢？
Any reason for that?
原因是
The reason
是否
Did
你希望保持模棱两可，说我不知道？
you want to be able to remain deliberately vague and say, I don't know?
不，女士。
No, ma'am.
接着，辩护方提出了最有力的一点：公寓的布局以及那个根本不存在的卧室。
Then came the defense's best point, the apartment layout and the bedroom that wasn't.
他们有文件、照片和证人来证明这是一间单室公寓。
They had documents, photographs, and witnesses to back up the claim that this was a one room studio.
他迅速回忆起来，有时似乎在说，他的记忆可能与事实相悖，因为那是他的记忆。
Rapid his memory and at times seemed to say that his memory could contradict facts because it was his memory.
这是一间大房间，对吧？
It's one big room, isn't it?
在我的记忆里不是这样。
Not in my memory.
不是。
No.
在你的记忆里，你把那个壁龛改成了卧室？
In your memory, you're converting that, what, that alcove into a bedroom?
没错。
Correct.
所以你在这方面是错的？
So you were wrong about that?
我记得那里有一个卧室。
I remember there being a bedroom.
我知道你记得的是什么，但我问你的是，你是不是完全搞错了？
I know what you're saying you remember, but what I'm asking you is, is it possible you're completely wrong about that?
有可能，我记得那里有个卧室。
It's possible, and I remember a bedroom.
他不愿意承认自己对卧室的记忆是错的。
He wouldn't admit that he was wrong about the bedroom.
他一再诉诸于对那晚的记忆，不管这些记忆是否与事实相符。
Time and again, he would appeal to his memory of the night, regardless of how it corresponded with the facts.
拉普坚持认为，他生活在一个世界里，在那里，他的记忆和Spacey律师所呈现的事实可以同时为真。
Rapp seemed adamant that he lived in a world where both his memory and the facts that Spacey's lawyers were presenting could be true at the same time.
而且，为了让你的说法成立，必须得有个门洞，对吧？
And there had to be a doorway, again, for your story to be true, right?
不是为了它
Not for it
成立。
to be true.
那就是我记忆中的样子。
It was what I remembered.
好的。
Okay.
所以你的意思是，你记得的事情和真实情况可能是完全不同的两回事？
So are you saying that what you remembered and what is true can be two completely different things?
我说的是，我记得那里有个门。
I'm saying that I remember there being a doorway.
当你说到‘为了让你的说法成立’的时候，我是在回答你的问题。
I was answering your question when you said for it to be true.
我只是想问，到底有没有一扇门？
I'm just saying, was there or wasn't there a doorway?
有一扇门。
There was a doorway.
那拉普声称记得的那些事情呢？
And what about the things Rapp did claim to remember?
嗯，它们也说不通。
Well, they didn't make much sense either.
首先，他母亲真的会允许她14岁的儿子在午夜独自去参加一个她从未见过的年长男子的派对吗？
For one, would his mother really have allowed her 14 year old son to go at midnight to the party of an older man she had never met?
她难道不会对潜在的危险高度警惕吗？
Wouldn't she be hyper aware of the dangers?
凯勒问，考虑到拉普的哥哥曾被他母亲的前男友性侵？
Keller asked, given that Rap's older brother had been molested by her ex boyfriend?
你是在告诉我，尽管发生了那样的事，你母亲还是让你在至少午夜时分独自离开公寓，走到一个她从未见过的成年男性家中？
And you're telling me that your mother was, despite that having happened, was letting you leave your apartment at what must have been midnight at the earliest, walk to the home of a man that she had never met, an adult male that she had never met, alone?
我不知道她是什么时候得知我哥哥的经历的。
I do not know when she came to learn of my brother's experiences.
但这并不是我的问题，好吧，她具体是什么时候知道的。
That's not really my question though, okay, exactly when she came to learn of it.
到那时她已经知道了。
She knew of it by then.
拉普对此解释说，在他待在纽约的这段时间里，他母亲逐渐给予了他更多的自由。
Rapp explained this away by stating at this point during his time in New York, his mother was granting him more and more independence.
拉普的律师，彼得·塞吉尔。
Rapp's attorney, Peter Segier.
安东尼，很多人可能会想到一个14岁的孩子在午夜或凌晨一点独自徘徊。
Anthony, there is a lot of people who might be thinking of 14 year old kid walking around at midnight or one in the morning.
解释一下这个情况。
Explain that.
我意识到我过着一种非常不寻常的生活。
I recognize that it was a very unusual life that I was living.
是的，我确实如此。
I was yes.
对于大多数14岁的孩子来说，我过的生活是不寻常的。
I was living an unusual life for most 14 year olds.
我展现了独立性和值得信赖、能够自保的能力，因此她给了我这种自由。
I I had demonstrated my independence and my ability to be trusted, to be safe, and she granted me that freedom.
他到达了一个由陌生人组成的派对。
He arrives at a party of strangers.
拉普只能模糊地记得他们是百老汇类型的人。
Rap can only vaguely remember them as Broadway types.
但除此之外，什么都想不起来了。
But beyond that, nothing.
凯勒问，为什么派对上的参与者对拉普没有任何印象，尤其是为什么没有人出来证实他的说法。
Keller asked why party attendees didn't make any impression on rap, and especially why hadn't anyone come forward to corroborate his story.
自从你公开指控Spacey先生以来，已经过去了五年。
And in the five years since you've publicly accused Mr.
在这五年里，没有一个人出来表示，嘿，我当时在那个派对上。
Spacey, not a single person has come forward to say, Hey, I was at that party.
没错。
Correct.
你至少已经讲了三十年关于凯文·史派西的故事了，对吧？
And you've been telling this Kevin Spacey story of yours for at least thirty years, right?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
凯勒认为这次袭击从未发生过。
It was Keller's contention that the assault never happened.
但她也想展示她如何相信拉普是如何将这个故事植入脑海的。
But she also wanted to show how she believed Rapp could have gotten the story into his head.
她向陪审团展示了戏剧《珍贵的儿子》的录像版本。
She showed the jury a filmed version of the play Precious Sons.
拉普曾反复排练，并连续数月每周演出八场。
Rapp would have extensively rehearsed and then performed this show eight times a week for months.
这部戏剧在拉普声称袭击发生前刚刚结束一周多，因此在他的记忆中非常鲜明。
The play wrapped just over a week before Rapp said the assault took place, so it would have been very prominent in his memory.
他在回忆录《没有你》中提到，这部剧的行动和对话深深烙入他的潜意识，并经常出现在他的日常生活中。
He said in his memoir Without You that the actions and dialogue of the play sunk deep into his subconscious and often emerged into his everyday life.
这是他在朗读自己的自传音频版。
This is him reading the audio version of his autobiography.
但经过每天数小时反复聆听同一段对白后，这部剧的节奏已经渗入了我的潜意识。
But the rhythms of the play had seeped their way into my subconscious after I'd spent hours every day listening to the same bits of dialogue.
在排练一部剧时，台词常常会像一首挥之不去的歌，我不由自主地在任何合适的对话中重复这些句子。
During rehearsals for a play, the text often takes on the life of a song that I can't get out of my head, and I find myself parroting back phrases wherever they fit in conversations.
凯勒向陪审团展示了剧中与拉普描述的斯派西涉嫌性侵情节几乎完全相同的部分。
Keller showed the jury the part of the play which was almost exactly the same as how Rapp described the alleged assault by Spacey.
在剧中，埃德·哈里斯饰演的角色醉酒后，将拉普饰演的角色抱起并压在他身上，实施了性侵犯。
In the play, Ed Harris' character is drunk and sexually assaults Rapp's character by picking him up and laying on top of him.
你现在每天花数小时反复聆听《珍贵之子》中的相同对白，对吧？
Now, you spent hours every day listening to the same bits of dialogue from Precious Sons, right?
是的。
Yes.
这部剧的节奏已经潜移默化地进入了你的潜意识，不是吗？
And the rhythms of the play had kind of seeped into your subconscious, had they not?
是的。
Yes.
在某种程度上，是的。
To some degree, yes.
事实上，你在你的书里写过这一点，对吧？
In fact, you wrote about that in your book, right?
是的。
Yes.
你根本无法从脑海中摆脱这部剧的台词，对吧？
You couldn't get the text of the play out of your head, right?
尤其是在排练期间。
Especially during rehearsals.
现在，埃德·哈里斯的角色，我们说他像娶新娘一样把你抱起来，对吧？
Now, Ed Harris' character, we said he picked you up like a bride, right?
没错。
Correct.
我们已经看过证据OO了。
And we've already seen exhibit OO.
我不打算再重复这一点。
I'm not going to go into that again.
在《珍爱儿子》中，爱德·哈里斯的一只手臂放在你的中背部。
One of Ed Harris' arms was under your middle back area in Precious Sons.
对吧？
Right?
我想是的。
I believe so.
是的。
Yes.
至于斯派西先生，他的其中一只手臂也放在你的中背部。
And with respect to mister Spacey, one of his arms was under your middle back.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Correct.
《珍爱儿子》中埃德·哈里斯的角色喝醉了。
Ed Harris's character in Precious Sons was intoxicated.
对吧？
Right?
至少在那场戏里是这样。
At least in that one scene.
可能更多，但没错。
Maybe more, but yes.
而且在那两次他压在你身上的场景中，至少有一次是这样。
And certainly in one of the two scenes where he got on top of you.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Correct.
还有，史派西先生，
And Mr.
你说他在派对上也喝醉了。
Spacey, you say, was also intoxicated at the party.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Correct.
但关键是，一个醉酒的成年男人全身压在你身上，说：‘我需要你爱我一个半小时。’
But the bottom line is a drunken adult man comes in full weight on top of you and says, I need you to love me for an hour and a half.
对吧？
Right?
我不确定是否真的如此，我不记得具体的顺序或他这么说的确切时间。
I don't know that that's I'm not I don't remember the exact sequence of it or the exact timing of when he said that.
所以我想对你非常精确，女士。
So I wanna be very precise with you, ma'am.
所以你记得这件事发生过，对吧？
So You remember that happening, don't you?
我记得那个场景。
I remember the scene.
我不记得那个场景中事件的确切顺序，也不记得它是如何实际安排和演绎的。
I don't remember the exact sequence of the events of that scene and how it was actually staged and actually played.
最终，拉普的证词并没有揭示出Spacey团队不知道或无法回应的太多新信息。
In the end, Rapp's testimony didn't reveal much that Spacey's team didn't already know and have an answer for.
他们通过确凿的事实，非常彻底地驳斥了他对性侵事件的描述。
They did a very thorough job discrediting his account of the assault with immutable facts.
在几次拉普自己的律师重新质询他的回答时，他能够补充更多背景信息。
On a few occasions when Rapp's own lawyers reexamined his answers, he was able to add more context.
以下是关于他如何因卢皮塔·尼永奥的文章而站出来所作的澄清。
Here's what he clarified about how the Lupita Nyong'o essay led to him coming forward.
那篇由女士撰写的文章是？
Was the article by Ms.
尼ong'o的这篇文章促使你站出来吗？
Nyong'o the article that compelled you to come forward?
卢皮塔·尼ong'o的这篇文章坚定了我的决心，让我决定接受这次采访。
The article by Lupita Nyong'o is what cemented and confirmed that I was going to give the interview.
你这是什么意思，
Explain what you
为什么你在10月11日联系亚当·瓦里？
mean by that, and why you were contacting Adam Vary on October 11.
我联系亚当·瓦里是为了开启一次探索性的对话，了解如果我选择站出来，会涉及哪些内容，包括报道将如何进行，证词如何得到佐证。
Was contacting Adam Vary to begin an exploratory conversation about what might be involved if I were to come forward, including how reporting would happen, how corroboration would happen.
我还需要和我的制片人们商量。
And I needed to consult with my producers.
我需要更深入地思考这件事可能带来的影响。
I needed to think more deeply about the ramifications of this.
在读完她的文章以及她关于打破沉默的叙述后，我最终确认了自己将决定接受这次采访。
And it was after reading her article and what she said about breaking silence that confirmed for me that I'm going to go ahead and give the interview.
拉普坚持自己的说法，称无论事实如何，那都是他的记忆。
Rapp, in turn, stood by his story, saying it was his memory regardless of their facts.
但你能因为自己对某件事的个人记忆，而要求并获得四千万美元的赔偿吗？即使客观事实和其他人的说法与此不同？
But can you demand and be awarded $40,000,000 for how you personally remember something happening, even if the physical facts and other people tell a different story?
但也许拉普并不是最有说服力的证人。
But maybe rap just wasn't the most compelling witness.
证人席是一个令人畏惧的地方，人们在那里可能无法很好地为自己辩护。
The witness box can be an intimidating place where people may not make the best case for themselves.
还有其他几位证人可以提供更多细节，或许能加强他的立场。
There were still several other witnesses who could provide more of the story and perhaps bolster his case.
接下来上场的是克里斯托弗·哈特，安东尼·拉普的老朋友。
Next up was Christopher Hart, an old school friend of Anthony Rapp.
他向陪审团讲述，当拉普从纽约回来后，告诉他萨斯比在一次派对上扑向了他。
He told the jury how when Rapp returned from New York, he told him that Spacey had jumped on him at a party.
这一证词至关重要，起初看似支持了拉普的说法。
This was important testimony that at the outset seemed to corroborate Rapp's account.
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哈特本可能成为对斯佩西不利的证人，但他的证词中关于卧室的细节同样不准确，这让人对拉普自身的可信度产生了质疑。
Hart could have been a damaging witness against Spacey, except that his evidence had the same inaccurate details about a bedroom that called Rapp's own truthfulness into question.
此外，哈特表示，拉普的故事中完全没有提到他和巴拉蒙德与杰克·尼科尔森见面、与斯佩西共进晚餐，或一起在斯佩西家中，尽管哈特本人也认识巴拉蒙德。
Also, Hart told how Rapp's story made no mention of him and Baramond meeting Jack Lemmon, having dinner with Spacey or being in Spacey's home together despite the fact that Hart also knew Baramond.
这些细节对拉普来说，竟然没有向他们共同的朋友提及，实在有些奇怪。
These were strange details for Rapp to not divulge to their mutual friend.
哈特还说，拉普甚至从未提过巴拉蒙德当时在纽约。
Hart said Rapp never even mentioned that Barraman was in New York at the time.
当哈特表示自己作证是为了‘支持朋友’，并且拉普的律师支付了他从旧金山前往纽约的旅费时，他的可信度进一步受到质疑。
Hart was further discredited when he said he was giving evidence to quote support his friend unquote and that Rapp's lawyer paid his expenses to travel from San Francisco to New York.
接下来轮到丽莎·罗奎奥，拉普的临床与法医心理学家，出庭作证。
Then it was time for Lisa Rocqueo, Rapp's clinical and forensic psychologist, to give her evidence.
她履历出色，职业生涯中长期研究创伤对人的影响。
She has an impressive resume and spent a lot of her career looking at how trauma affected people.
我们在第一集中已详细介绍了她的证词。
We have detailed much of her evidence in episode one.
她声称，拉普对自己可能做过或没做过什么导致性侵感到极度羞耻、困惑和不确定。
She claimed that Rapp experienced a tremendous amount of shame, confusion and uncertainty about what perhaps he may have done or not done to have caused the sexual assault.
这让他开始质疑自己，质疑自己的性取向。
It caused him to have questions about himself, his sexuality.
她告诉陪审团，他真的承受了巨大的羞耻、内疚和痛苦，并患有创伤后应激障碍。
He really just had a tremendous amount of shame and guilt and distress and suffered from PTSD, she told the jury.
但在查斯·斯科尼克的交叉质询下，她不得不承认，安东尼·拉普曾经历过多次袭击和性暴力事件，这些都可能引发创伤和创伤后应激障碍，因此她选择专注于所谓的空间者袭击事件显得有些奇怪。
But under cross examination by Chase Skolnick, she was forced to admit that Anthony Rapp had suffered numerous incidents of assault and sexual violence that could have triggered trauma and PTSD, making it perhaps peculiar that she chose to focus on the alleged spacey assault.
其他事件包括：拉普17岁时女演员苏珊·泰勒尔对他的性骚扰、童年时家人遭受的帮派暴力，以及多次严重的欺凌事件。
The other incidents included alleged sexual harassment harassment from actress Susan Tyrrell when Rapp was 17, gang violence against his family when he was a child, and instances of severe bullying.
正如前一集提到的，他在10岁时还曾被演员埃韦尔·布伦纳击中腹部。
As mentioned in a previous episode, he was also punched in the stomach by actor Ewel Brenner when he was 10.
空间者的律师们试图说明，既然拉普生活中还有其他更明确可证的事件，完全有可能导致他的心理问题，因此无法证明空间者应对他的心理状况负责。
Spacey's lawyers were making the point that there was no way to prove that Spacey was responsible for Rapp's mental issues when there were other, far more provable incidents in Rapp's life that could have also caused psychological damage.
辩护方还通过展示一点赢得了一些优势：无论拉普抱怨什么，罗奇奥似乎都执意将责任归咎于所谓空间者的性侵，即使拉普的问题有时截然不同。
The defense also scored some points by showing that whatever Rapp complained about, Rocchio seemed intent on blaming the alleged assault by Spacey, even if Rapp's problems were sometimes very, very different.
仅凭几个问答，罗奇奥就把拉普性欲减退和完全相反的性亢奋及参与随意性关系都归因于太空人的性侵。
In just a few questions and answers, Rocchio attributed both Rapp's loss of sex drive and the complete opposite, his hypersexualization and involvement in casual hookups, to the assault by Spacey.
接下来，太空人的团队请来了他们自己的心理专家，巴迪博士。
Then it was time for Spacey's team to bring in their own psychological expert, Doctor.
亚历山大·巴迪。
Alexander Bardy.
他告诉陪审团，拉普的心理状况表明他具有操纵性，为了吸引注意而准备撒谎。
He told the jury that rap psychological could prove he was manipulative and prepared to lie for attention.
太空人的律师还试图迎合曼哈顿陪审团的政治倾向，直到卡普兰法官出面干预。
Spacey's lawyers also tried to appeal to the Manhattan Jury's political leanings until Judge Kaplan intervened.
你的MCMI测试发现了关于拉普先生的哪些潜在人格障碍？
What, if anything, did your MCMI test reveal about Mr.
拉普先生可能存在抑郁型和自恋型人格特质。
Rapp's potential personality disorders?
它表明可能存在抑郁和自恋型人格特征。
It indicated the possibility of depressive and narcissistic personality traits.
你提到他有自恋型人格特质。
You said narcissistic personality traits.
你能告诉我们这指的是什么吗？
Can you tell us what that means?
这意味着他并不完全符合自恋型人格障碍的诊断标准，但确实具有一些相关特质
That means that he doesn't quite meet the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder, but he has some of the traits of that
障碍。
disorder.
什么是自恋型人格障碍？
What is a narcissistic personality disorder?
这是一种
It's a
以自我中心、夸大、善于操纵为特征的人格障碍，这类人通常希望将注意力集中在自己身上。
personality disorder characterized by an individual who is self centered, grandiose, manipulative, who tends to want to move the spotlight onto him or her.
嫉妒是自恋型人格障碍患者的一个特征吗？
Is jealousy a feature of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder?
任何让个体感到自己不如他人，或有可能感到不如他人的状况，都会引发愤怒的反应。
Anybody, any situation where the individual feels less than or has a possibility of feeling less than will trigger an angry response.
所以嫉妒就是其中之一。
So jealousy would be one.
被忽视也是其中之一。
Being ignored would be one.
例如，如果一个患有自恋型人格的人输掉了一场选美比赛或一场选举，
So, for example, if someone with a narcissistic personality were to lose a beauty contest or an election,
他们会不会认为自己并没有输掉选举或选美比赛？
might they think they didn't lose the election or beauty contest?
我要提出异议，尽管这会打开一个很宽泛的话题。
I'm going to object, although it opens up a wide area.
也许我们不要再谈这个了。
Maybe let's get away from that.
好的，法官大人。
Yes, your honor.
这可不是NPR的晚间新闻。
This isn't the NPR evening news.
具有自恋型人格障碍特征的人，面对被忽视会如何反应？
How would someone with features of narcissistic personality disorder how would they respond to being ignored?
他们会编造一个故事来合理化这种行为。
Well, they'll create a narrative to justify it.
他们不会接受‘我被忽视是因为我不够重要’这种说法。
They're not going to accept that I'm less ignored because I'm not worthy.
他们会想出一个叙事，把经历重新诠释成对自己有利的样子。
They'll come up with a narrative to recast the experience in a way that's positive for themselves.
这种观点有文献和研究支持吗？
Is that opinion supported by literature and study?
有。
Yes.
你能举些例子，说明具有自恋型人格障碍特征的人会如何吸引他人注意吗？
Can you give us examples of something a person who has features of a narcissistic personality disorder would do to draw attention to themselves?
他们会讲述一些夸大自己在各种结果中作用的故事。
Well, they would tell stories that embellish their role in any sort of outcome.
他们可能会做出一些张扬的行为，把注意力从其他事情转移到自己身上。
They might do something outspoken to draw attention away from something else onto them.
他们甚至会把一些完全超出自己控制的事情归功于自己的帮助。
They may actually take credit for things that are really outside of their control as being somehow something they helped to do.
你读过拉普先生的回忆录吗？
Did you read mister Rapp's memoir?
是的。
Yes.
拉普先生的回忆录中有没有什么内容支持你的观点，即拉普先生具有自恋型人格障碍的特征？
Was there anything in mister Rapp's memoir that supported your opinion that mister Rapp has features of narcissistic personality disorder?
当然。
Sure.
他讲了一个他母亲告诉他的故事，并在回忆录中写道，他认为自己在一岁大的时候就拯救了全家，当时他和妈妈坐在车里，我想那是一辆大众甲壳虫，而有罪犯在袭击司机。
He gave a story that he felt he'd been told by his mother, and he wrote in his memoir that he felt that he'd been responsible for saving his family when he was a one year old baby, that he was in the car with his mom, I think it was a VW Beetle, And criminals had been preying on drivers.
他讲述了一个故事，说罪犯看到他母亲在后座回头看他，与他目光相接，随后便离开了，没有继续追他们的车。
And he tells the story that the criminal saw his mother look back at him in the car seat, made eye contact, and then the criminal left and did not pursue their car.
他将此视为自己首次拯救了全家生命的例子。
And he took that as some like the first instance that he saved his family's life.
然后他还讲述了至少另一个类似的事例。
And then he recounted at least one other beyond that.
拉普先生的书中还有其他部分与你的观点一致，即他具有自恋型人格障碍的特征吗？
Are there any other parts of mister Rapp's book that were consistent with your opinion, that he has features of a narcissistic personality disorder?
是的。
Yes.
体现在两个方面。
In two ways.
一是他成长环境的特殊性，他母亲过度关注他，而忽视了另外两个兄弟姐妹，使他从小就成为焦点，早早步入聚光灯下，在人际关系中，如果他没有得到关注或被冷落，就会感到不安。
One is the very nature of his upbringing with his mother focusing on him at the detriment of his two other siblings, being thrust into stardom at an early age, being the center of attention, in relationships getting upset if he's not being paid attention to or he's being left.
他描述过自己曾对某些与他有过关系的人实施攻击或突然变得暴力。
He described attacking some or becoming impulsively violent with some of the people that he had been involved with.
从这个角度来看，所有这些都与患有自恋型人格特征的人一致。
And as seen through that lens, all of that is consistent with someone with narcissistic personality features.
我不希望
I don't want to
深入细节，因为我们之前已经听过，但我们知道拉普先生
go into any details because we've heard about it before, but we've heard that Mr.
在13岁和14岁时曾对母亲施暴。
Rapp was violent with his mother when he was 13 and 14.
如果有的话，这与患有自恋型人格特征的人有何关联？
How, if at all, is that consistent with someone who is suffering from features of a narcissistic personality disorder?
他不想
He doesn't want
被人指使。
to be told what to do.
他不想被人拒绝。
He doesn't want to be said no to.
他希望按自己的方式行事。
He wants to have his
自己的方式。
own way.
斯派西的团队构建了拉普对事件的版本。
Spacey's team had constructed Rapp's version of events.
他在接受质询时表现挣扎，因拒绝给出直接回答，并试图利用一位少数族裔女演员的痛苦来博取同情和关注，从而激怒了法官和陪审团。
He had struggled under questioning and alienated the judge and the jury with his refusal to give straight answers and his attempt to use the pain of a minority actress to gain sympathy and attention.
但也许最重要的证人尚未在陪审团面前出庭。
But perhaps the most important witness still had to come before the jury.
凯文·斯派西必须出庭作证并接受交叉质询。
Kevin Spacey had to give evidence and be cross examined on that evidence.
他的律师表示，他一直希望这些指控能在法庭上得到检验。
His lawyers said he had always wanted the allegations to be tested in a court of law.
但斯派西是好莱坞最低调的人之一。
But Spacey was one of the most private men in Hollywood.
在四十多年的演艺生涯中，他参加过数百次采访，却始终拒绝谈论个人事务或家人？
He had always refused to discuss personal matters or his family in the hundreds of interviews he had given over his forty years in the entertainment industry?
他将如何应对向陪审团、法庭和全世界揭示自己生活的私密细节？
How would he cope with revealing intimate details of his life to the jury, the courtroom and the world?
如果这位天生内向的人未能展现出开放和诚实的态度，陪审团或许更愿意相信拉普那虽有瑕疵但坦率的陈述。
If this instinctively private man didn't come across as open and honest, Maybe the jury would prefer to believe Rapp's flawed but forthright account.
在下一期节目中，凯文·史派西终于迎来了他的法庭之日。
In the next episode, Kevin Spacey finally gets his day in court.
《凯文·史派西审判：未经剪辑》是《未被报道的故事协会》的项目。
The Trial of Kevin Spacey, Unfiltered, is a project of the Unreported Story Society.
本节目由菲兰·麦卡利尔、弗吉尼亚·阿布拉姆和安·麦克伦尼研究与撰写。
It was researched and written by Phelan McAleer, Virginia Abram and Anne McElhenny.
旁白由安·麦克伦尼担任。
Narrated by Anne McElhenny.
音乐、剪辑与音效设计由马克·阿拉米安负责。
Music, editing and sound design by Mark Aramian.
制作人：菲兰·麦卡勒、玛格达莱娜·塞加达和安·麦克埃尔亨尼。
Produced by Phelan McAleer, Magdalena Segada and Anne McElhenny.
执行制片人：安·麦克埃尔亨尼、玛格达莱娜·塞加达和菲兰·麦卡勒。
Executive producers: Anne McElhenny, Magdalena Segada and Phela McAleer.
重现场景由基夫·斯卡尔执导。
Reenactments directed by Kiff Skull.
重现场景由米歇尔·加德纳饰演珍妮弗·凯勒，尼克·尼古拉饰演安东尼·拉普，克里福德·斯库尔饰演卡普兰法官，卡尔·戴维森饰演蔡斯·斯科尔尼克，史蒂夫·泰勒饰演医生。
Reenactments performed by Michelle Gardner as Jennifer Keller, Nick Nicola as Anthony Rapp, Clifford School as Judge Kaplan, Carl Davidson as Chase Skolnick, Steve Taylor as Doctor.
亚历山大·巴迪和詹姆斯·戴尔饰演理查德·施泰格曼，劳埃德·吉尔曼饰演彼得·塞加尔。
Alexander Bardy, James Dale as Richard Steigman and Lloyd Gilman as Peter Segear.
录音工程师：威尔·埃德尼斯顿、摩根·格哈德。
Recording engineers, Will Edniston, Morgan Gerhard.
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