摩根·豪塞尔：致富并守住财富

如果你试图在长期内优化每一分钱，也许这没有意义。

If you're trying to optimize every penny over the long term, maybe that doesn't make sense.

但如果你追求的是幸福和长寿，那也许就说得通了。

But if you're optimizing for happiness and longevity, maybe it does make sense.

是的。

Yes.

所以我认为，金钱的定性因素对人们来说很难理解，尤其是在一个一直被当作分析性领域来教授的领域里。

And so I think the qualitative factors of money are hard for people to wrap their head around, particularly in a field that has been taught as an analytical field.

如果你获得金融学位，或者考取CFA之类的证书，学到的全是数字。

If you get a degree in finance or get your CFA or whatever it'd be, it's purely numbers.

这并不完全准确。

That's not totally accurate.

里面确实有一些，但大多数金融教学都只关注数字。

There's some in there, but vast majority of how they teach finance is just numbers.

因此，很多人很难理解，为什么你会做一些数字上说不通的事情。

And so it can be hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around why you would do something where the numbers don't make sense.

钱能为我们带来什么？它能为我们带来什么？

What can money do for us, what can it do for us?

它向我们传递了什么谎言？

What's the lie it tells us?

我们以为钱能为我们做到，但实际上做不到的是什么？

What's the thing that we feel like it can do for us that it can't?

我认为，生活中很多人如果对自己的现状不满意，就会很轻易地认为：如果我有更多的钱，一切都会变好。

Well, I think the lie is that a lot of people in life, if they're unsatisfied with how their life is going, it's a very quick and easy answer to say, If I had more money, things would be better.

这可能是对的。

And that can be true.

钱确实能解决很多问题，但我认为，很多人真正想要的——我不是说所有人，我不想一概而论——但我想要的，也是很多人普遍希望拥有的，是自由，是能和我爱的人在一起，比如家人和朋友。

It can solve a lot of your problems, but I think what a lot of people want in life, not everyone, I don't want to completely generalize this, but what I want that I think is is reasonably common for people is I want independence, and I wanna spend time with the people who I love, my family and friends.

就这么简单。

And that's pretty much it.

你能用钱实现这些吗？

And can you use money to do that?

当然。

Of course.

金钱可以说是独立的氧气，如果你能用金钱来多花时间陪伴朋友和家人。

Money is is kind of the oxygen of independence, and if you can use your money to spend more time with your friends and family.

昨晚我们俩一起吃了一顿美好的晚餐。

You and I went out to a lovely dinner last night with each other.

这花了不少钱。

That cost money.

顺便说声谢谢，你请客了。

Thank you for buying, by the way.

我们在一起度过了非常愉快的时光。

And we had a great time with each other.

如果你我和我散步，那就不花钱，但也同样很棒。

Now if you and I went for a walk that would have been free, it would have been great too.

但用钱来让你想和谁在一起、何时在一起、待多久，都能如愿。

But using money for to spend time with whom you want, when you want, for as long as you want.

每天早上醒来，都能说今天我想做什么就做什么，哪怕我想做的只是去上班、保持高效，这至关重要。

Waking up every morning and saying, can do whatever I want today, even if what I wanna do is go to work and and be productive, is absolutely critical.

这和那种条件反射式的想法不同，比如‘如果我有钱了，就能买更多、更好的东西’。

And that is different from the knee jerk of just, oh, if I have more money, can buy more things, nicer things.

但你内心真正想要的，其实是独立，是和你爱的人共度时光。

But what you actually want in your soul is to like, is you want independence and to spend time with people who you love.

钱能做到这些，但它的作用并没有人们想象的那么直接。

Money can do those things, but it's not as direct as people think.

一个例子是：住更大的房子会让你更快乐吗？

One example of this is like, will having a nicer house make you happier?

也许会，但让你更快乐的原因，是因为它让你更容易邀请朋友来家里做客。

It might, but the reason it's going to make you happier is because it makes it easier to have friends over.

它让你能更方便地和孩子在宽敞、漂亮的客厅里一起放松。

It makes it more convenient to hang out with your kids in a big, nice, glorious living room.

所以，并不是房子本身会让你更快乐，而是它能让生活中更重要的事情变得更顺利。

So it's not that the house will make you happier, but the house can make it more conducive to do things in your life.

这些事情才会让你更快乐。

Those things will make you happier.

我和我最小的孩子一起读《富爸爸穷爸爸》，我们谈到了房子这个概念，如果我没记错的话，书里说你的房子是一种负债，而不是资产。

I was reading Rich Dad Poor Dad with my youngest, and we come to the concept of a house, and if I get this right, it was sort of your house is a liability and not an asset.

所以不要把它看作是一种会增值、为你积累财富的金融资产。

So don't think of it as a financial asset that's going to grow and acquire wealth for you.

而应该把它看作是一种负债，是你想要参与游戏、过上稳定生活以及其他一切时所必需的底线。

Think of it as liability that's just sort of table stakes for playing the game if you want, or living life and having stability and all these other things.

我觉得这真的很有趣。

I thought it was really interesting.

当我们讨论它的时候，我就想，这不就是一栋房子吗？

As we talked about it, I was like, it's just the house.

房子本质上就是一个容器。

What the house is, effectively, it's a container.

重要的是这个容器里面发生的事情。

What matters is what happens inside that container.

房子本身，谁在乎呢？

The house in and of itself, who cares?

是的。

Yeah.

就在最近，上个月，我和我儿子去了我长大的那个小镇，我顺道去了我童年大部分时间住过的那栋房子。

Just recently, just last month, I traveled with my son to the town that I grew up in, and I stopped by the house that I grew up in for the majority of my childhood.

我已经二十年没去过了。

I hadn't been there in twenty years.

我们把车开进了车道。

We pulled in the driveway.

当然，现在那里住着别人，所以我们只是坐在车里。

Of course, there's people who live there now, so we just sat in the car.

但我坐在那里整整十分钟，只是回想——一旦驶入车道，那些关于这栋房子里发生的点点滴滴的记忆就开始涌上心头，有好的有坏的，有开心的有悲伤的，童年时的回忆太多了。

But I I sat there for ten minutes just kinda reminiscing about as soon as you pull in the driveway, all these memories start flooding back of the things that happened in that house, good and bad, fun and sad, like like so many memories in there from my childhood.

当然，你可以在Zillow上查到那栋房子现在的价值。

And of course, you can go on Zillow and see what that house is worth.

它会给你一个非常具体的数字，告诉你这栋房子的价值。

It'll give you a very specific dollar figure for what the house is worth.

但这栋房子对我来说、对我父母和兄弟姐妹来说，是无价的。

But what the house is worth to me and my parents and my siblings is is invaluable.

你无法为这样的回忆标上价格。

You can't put a price tag on those kind of memories.

我认为这对大多数人来说都是如此。

I think that's common for most people.

它有实际的财务价值，但也有一种无法用金钱衡量的无形价值。

There's a tangible financial value, and there's this intangible that you can't ever put a price on.

旅行也是如此。

That's true for vacations.

生活中很多事物都是这样，都有一个财务价值。

It's true for a lot of things in life, that there's a financial value.

如果我问你，这栋房子值多少钱？

If I asked you and said, what is this house worth?

再说一遍，你可以上Zillow查，但这所房子里积累的回忆值多少钱呢？

Again, you could go on Zillow and say, but what are the memories built inside that house worth?

就像你说的，这种东西是无法用金钱衡量的。

It's like, you can't put a price on that.

当你实现财务自由后，这是否意味着你在花钱时，已经不再把钱当作关键因素了？

When you've reached financial independence, is that the ultimate when you're spending money, but it's not a matter of the money?

你不再用具体的美元数额来衡量它。

You're not quantifying it in sort of a dollar figure.

你用的是感受来衡量它。

You're quantifying it in a feeling.

或者

Or

我觉得这很有道理。

I think there's truth to that.

当你开始把它当作提升幸福感的工具时。

It's when you start using it as a tool to become happier.

现在让人快乐的东西完全不同了。

Now what's gonna make people happy is very different.

拥有一个令人惊叹的法拉利收藏可能会让你快乐。

Having an incredible Ferrari collection might make you happy.

所以，如果说让你快乐的东西不是物质的，你只应该用它们来获得体验，这未免太过极端了。

So if it's not to say that the things will make you happy are not material, that you should just use this for experiences.

我认为，这种说法走得太远了。

That, think, is a step too far.

我认为很多人有花费高昂的爱好，这些是物质性的，却真的让他们感到快乐。

I think a lot of people have hobbies that cost a lot of money that are material that really make them happy.

所以，这很好。

So it's like, great.

有很多人会说，你知道的，他们会大力提倡节俭，认为你不需要大房子。

There are a lot of people out there who would say, you know, who would really promote frugality and be like, you don't need a big house.

你不需要一辆好车。

You don't need a nice car.

大房子和好车确实让一些人非常开心。

Well, big houses and nice cars make some people really happy.

但对另一些人来说，却并非如此。

Other people, they don't.

关键在于，你如何把钱当作工具来改善生活，而不是把它当作衡量地位和成功的标尺，用来和别人攀比。

It's whatever you can use money as a tool for to live a better life, versus I think a yardstick of status and success to compare yourself against other people.

真正危险的是，你只是把钱当作和别人竞争的计分牌。

That's what gets dangerous, is when you're just using it as a scorecard to compete with other people.

我们该如何察觉自己正陷入地位竞争中，而自己却浑然不觉？

How do we catch ourselves in a status game, where we're playing a status game, but we can't see it because we're in it?

在经济层面，尤其是在宏观层面上，这是不可避免的。

It's unavoidable at the economy level, especially at the broad macro level.

从进化角度来看，人们彼此竞争是合情合理的。

It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that people compete with each other.

资源是有限的，如果我想获得食物、伴侣，或者任何其他东西，我就必须和你竞争。

There's limited resources, and if I want the food, if I want the mate, whatever it would be, I need to compete with you.

这一直都是如此。

That's always what it is.

所以这非常自然。

So it's so natural.

它永远不会消失。

It's never gonna go away.

这和以前完全一样。

This is truly same as ever.

人们总会不停地攀比。

People are always gonna be keeping up with the Joneses.

你可以想象这样一个世界：我们的孩子和孙子们的生活远比我们好，活得更久，物质条件也远超我们，但他们并不会因此更快乐，因为他们只是在和那些拥有更多的人竞争。

And you can imagine a world in which our kids and our grandkids are living way better lives than you and I are, and living longer, and have better material access you and I do, and they're no happier for it because they're just competing with other people who have even more than that.

这一直都是这样。

That's always been like that.

如果一百年前的人们能看到我们今天的生活，他们会对我们拥有的几乎所有东西感到震惊。

If people a hundred years ago could see how you and I are living today, they would be completely dumbfounded with virtually everything we have in our life.

但我也会打赌，你和我并没有比他们快乐多少。

But I would also wager that you and I are not that much happier than they are.

生活中有些方面确实更健康了，比如我们不必再担心下周会因流感而死，但人们只是会根据身边的人调整自己的期望。

There'd be some aspects of life where healthier, we don't have to wake up, you know, worry that we're gonna die die from the flu next week kind of but people just adjust their expectations to whoever is around them.

很多这种倾向就像是一种基因问题。

A lot of this is like a a DNA thing.

有些人天生更容易想要跟别人攀比，而另一些人则根本不在乎别人怎么看待自己。

Some people are just way more susceptible to wanting to keep up with others, and other people could just care less what other people think about them.

在我生命中，大概有六个人是我非常渴望获得他们的爱与尊重的。

There's probably six people in my life who I really desperately want their love and respect.

我的父母、我的妻子、我的孩子、几个朋友，还有其他人。

My parents, my wife, my kids, a handful of friends, and everyone else.

倒不是我完全不在乎，但在这六个人，或者最多八个人之后，这种在意程度就急剧下降了。

It's not that I could care less, but after those six or maybe eight people, it drops dramatically.

至于推特上和其他地方的绝大多数人，你们对我所做的决定怎么看，我根本无所谓。

And the vast majority of people on Twitter and whatnot, I could I could care less what you think about the decisions that I'm making.

所以我认为，如果你能明确一点，这一生中你想要谁的爱与钦佩？

So I think if you define that, who's love and admiration do I want in life?

弄清楚这些人是谁，以及你需要做什么才能赢得他们的爱与尊重？

Defining who those people are, and what do I have to do to earn their love and respect?

我妻子、孩子和父母的爱与尊重，这就是我想用金钱去实现的人生目标。

The love and respect of my wife and my kids and my parents, And that's what I wanna use money to do in my life.

比如花时间陪伴家人，带他们去一些精彩的地方等等。

So like spending time with my family, taking them to cool places, and whatnot.

这其中确实有财务方面的考量，但一旦你明确了自己在玩的这场个人游戏，许多决定就会变得清晰起来。

There is a financial aspect to this, but once you define that personal game you're playing, a lot of these decisions clear up.

我认为很多人其实从未思考过自己在玩什么样的游戏。

I think a lot of people don't actually think about what game they're playing.

他们看着别人，从我的角度看，你应该做些不同的事，但这是因为我们在优化不同的东西。

They look at other people, and from my lens, you should be doing something different, but that really comes because we're optimizing for different things.

是的。

Yes.

我打赌，如果你我和坐下来深入比较彼此的生活，我们会有很多截然不同的做法。

I bet if you and I sat down and deeply compared our lives, there would be things that we do very differently.

你花很多钱在这件事上，而我不。

Spending like you spend a lot of money on this, and I don't.

我花很多钱在这件事上，而你不。

I spend a lot of money on this, and you don't.

这并不是分歧。

And it's not a disagreement.

只是我们是不同的人。

It's just we're different people.

即使你我和年龄相仿、教育背景相似，可能也有很多地方就是不一样，但我们确实不同。

Even if you and I are about the same age, same education, there's probably a lot that is just like, yeah, but we're we're different.

所以我认为，大多数财务争论——无论是投资、储蓄还是消费方面的争论——人们其实并没有真正彼此反对。

So I think most financial debates, whether it's like an investing debate or a saving or spending debate, people are not actually disagreeing with each other.

他们根本不是在争论。

They're not actually debating.

这是不同性格的人在互相争论。

It's people with different personalities talking over each other.

一旦你接受了这一点，就没有唯一正确的答案。

And once you come to terms with that, there's not one right answer for any of this.

然而，我们从父母那里继承了太多关于金钱的无形规则和做法。

There's so many things that we inherit though from our parents, like invisible rules about money or practices around money.

我记得小时候，父母不得不在修屋顶和修车之间做选择，但他们负担不起两者。

I remember these moments in my childhood where you know, my parents had to decide between fixing the roof and fixing the car, and they couldn't afford to do both.

我记得他们为军方工作，军方曾给他们派了一名财务顾问。

And I remember they worked for the military, and the military had sent them a financial advisor.

我记得听着他们和财务顾问的对话，发现他们完全不了解我妈妈拿到的退役金发生了什么变化。

And I remember listening to the conversation they had with the financial advisor and how out of the loop they were with what was happening with the severance pay that my mom was getting and what was happening.

而且对这些情况一无所知。

Had And no knowledge of it.

我当时就想，我绝不要陷入这样的境地。

I was like, I never want to be in this position.

是的

Yeah.

你从父母那里学到的哪些教训至今仍深深影响着你，塑造了你对金钱的看法？

What are the lessons that you learned from your parents that really stick with you today that sort of defined how you think about money?

我父母的教育背景中，有两件事特别突出。

The two things that stick out from my parents, my parents' upbringing.

我爸爸30岁才开始上大学，那时他已经有了三个孩子。

So my dad started undergraduate college when he was 30 and had three kids.

我是三个孩子中最小的一个。

I'm the youngest of three.

我出生才一个月左右，他就开始了大学生活，等我上三年级时，他成了医生。

He started his undergrad when I was like a month old, something like that, and he became a doctor when I was in third grade.

我的童年早期，父母非常非常穷。

My early childhood, my parents were very, very poor.

他们当时是学生，或许有些学生补助金让我们能买点食物，住在一间小小的公寓里。

They were students, and maybe they had some student grants that allowed us to buy groceries, and live in a tiny little apartment.

我们非常快乐，拥有一个美好的童年，但那时我们极其贫穷。

We were very happy, had a great childhood, but they were very, very poor.

然后我爸爸在我三年级时成为医生，我们家的生活状况从极度贫困瞬间跃升至中上阶层，就在我三年级那一年，我的兄弟姐妹那时已经是青少年了。

And then my dad became a doctor when I was in third grade, and had the, so it was immediate shift towards very poor to like upper middle class, literally overnight when I was in third grade, and my sibling, my brother and sister were teenagers at that point.

所以我亲眼见证了贫富两个极端，我记得1993年是我们家命运彻底改变的一年。

So I got to see very, like, both sides of the spectrum, and I remember the year, 1993, is the year everything changed in our family.

最让我印象深刻的是，父母在贫穷时养成的节俭习惯，在他们开始赚更多钱后依然保留了下来。

What sticks out from that is that the frugality that was demanded of my parents when they were poor stuck with them after they started making more money.

所以即使我爸爸成为医生后，我们依然非常节俭。

And so even after my dad became a doctor, we were very frugal.

我们的生活比贫穷时期好得多，因为我的童年大部分时间都生活在赤贫中，但之后，他们保持着极高的储蓄率。

We lived a much better life than we did when we were poor, because we were living in abject poverty for most of my childhood, but after that, they had a very high savings rate.

我们不像我爸爸的同事那样花钱，也不像普通人预期的医生那样挥霍。

We were not spending money like my dad's coworkers were, like you would expect a normal doctor to.

根本完全不是那样。

It was nothing close to that.

我觉得我当时看不起我的父母。

I think I looked down upon my parents for that.

我当时想，我们本可以住在更好的房子里。

I was like, we could be living in a nicer house.

我知道你们赚了多少钱。

I know how much money you make.

我们本可以住更好的房子、开更好的车，但你们因为太吝啬而不这么做。

We could be living in a better house and driving a better car, but we don't because you're cheapskates.

在我青少年时期和二十岁出头的时候，我一直这么认为。

That was my view for my teens and early twenties.

我爸爸是急诊科医生，这是一个压力极大的领域。

My dad was an ER doctor, which is a very stressful field.

每天都有人死在你怀里，还要值夜班，这工作压力极大。

It's literally people dying in front of you in your arms every day and working night shifts, and it's a very stressful field.

所以大约二十年后，他实在受不了了。

So after about twenty years or so, he had just had enough.

而且，在他原本计划退休之前，某天早上他突然醒过来，说：我干够了。

And well before I think he intended to retire, he more or less woke up one day and said, I'm done.

这比那稍微有计划一点，但差不多就是这么回事。

It was a little more planned than that, but that that was close to it.

因为他存了很多钱，所以他能做到这一点。

And because he had saved so much, he could do that.

他拥有足够的自由，可以某天早上醒来，说：我为我所做的一切感到自豪，但现在我要去做别的事情了。

He had the independence to wake up one day and say, I'm proud of what I did, but I'm going to go do something else now.

他的很多同行都无法做到这一点，因为他们像医生一样花钱。

And a lot of his peers could not do that because they spent like doctors.

他们住在大房子里，送孩子上私立学校，开豪华汽车。

They lived in big houses and sent their kids to private school and drove fancy cars.

所以当他们想辞职时，却无法做到。

So when they wanted to quit, they couldn't.

他们想退休。

They wanted to retire.

他们很累，也想辞职，但却做不到。

They were they were tired, and they wanted to quit, but they couldn't do it.

这让我对事情的看法发生了巨大的转变。

And that was such a profound shift in my thinking.

这并不是很久以前的事，我记得大概是十二年前吧，那时我才明白，原来你存那么多钱是因为这个。

This was not that long ago, I don't know, twelve years ago or so, of when I was like, oh, that's that's why you were saving so much.

并不是因为你们小气，而是因为你们想获得独立，而现在你们做到了。

It wasn't because you were cheapskates, it's because you were wanting to become independent, and now you are.

你们想辞职，所以就能辞职。

You wanna quit so you could quit.

这就是你们存钱的原因。

That's why you are saving.

对我来说，这是一个巨大的转变：你们存钱不是因为害怕花钱，而是因为你们想要不同的东西——独立。

That was a profound shift for me of like, you're not saving because you're just scared to spend, you're saving because you want something different, which is independence.

而独立能带给你比大房子多得多的快乐。

And independence is going to give you so much more pleasure than the big house ever would.

这一直深深印在我心里。

That really stuck with me.

当你跟他们说‘你们就是小气鬼，别这样，我们买个大点的房子吧’的时候，他们是怎么回应你的？

How did they talk to you when you said, hey, you're just being cheapskates, like, let's do this thing, or let's get this bigger house, or

如果他们听到我刚才说的话，他们会说：‘是的，现在回头看，这全都是对的，但我们当时并不知道自己是在为独立而储蓄。’

If they heard what I just said, they would say, yes, in hindsight, that's all true, but we didn't know we were saving for independence.

我的父母也很有意思，他们四十多年来一直坚持在先锋指数基金上进行美元成本平均投资，从未卖出过任何一只基金。

They also my my parents are very interesting that they have dollar cost averaged in the Vanguard index funds for more than forty years and never sold anything ever.

所以，他们根本没有接受过任何金融教育，也没有什么金融技能，却很可能在这段时期内成为了顶尖的2%投资者。

So they would be, like, literally in the top probably 2% of investors during that period without any financial education, no financial skill, like no nothing like that.

我认为他们做的很多决定都取得了很好的结果，但这些决定其实并不是有意识做出的。

So I think a lot of the decisions they've made have worked out well, but it hasn't really been conscious.

所以，当我之前说你们是小气鬼的时候，我敢肯定他们只是耸耸肩，说：‘好吧，这就是我们正在做的事。’

So I think back when I said your cheapskates, I'm sure they just kind of shrugged and, okay, well, is what we're doing.

但我认为他们其实并没有一个明确的计划。

But I don't think they actually had a plan for what they were doing.

这仅仅是他们所被迫养成的节俭习惯。

It was just, again, the frugality that was demanded of them.

我父母在20世纪70年代的一个嬉皮士公社相识，那里可不是培养良好储蓄习惯的地方。

My parents also met on a hippie commune in the 1970s, not exactly the breeding ground for good saving skills.

因此，在他们整个成年生活中，长达数十年的时间里，他们身无分文。

And so for their entire adult lives, for literally decades, they zero money.

他们一无所有。

They had absolutely nothing.

所以他们学会了如何贫穷，但同时也非常快乐，婚姻也很美满。

So they learned how to be poor, and they're also very happy and have a great marriage.

如果你能带着尊严学会如何贫穷，这种能力会永远伴随你。

If you can learn how to be poor with dignity, that skill will just like stick with you forever.

所以当他们开始赚钱时，我认为他们可能真的不知道该如何处理这些钱，因为他们太习惯贫穷了，但无论是否自觉，这种经历最终造就了给予他们巨大幸福与满足的独立生活。

So when they started making money, I think it's probably true that they didn't exactly know what to do with it because they were so used to being poor, but whether it was conscious or not, it created this thing that has given them so much happiness and pleasure, which is independence.

富有和富裕之间有什么区别？

What's the difference between being rich and being wealthy?

这些定义都是我自己的，我只是在凭空创造，但我觉得‘富有’是指你有足够的钱支付房贷、车贷，每个月都能还清信用卡账单，从技术上讲，你能负担得起你买的东西。

The definitions are my own, so I'm just making this up, but I think rich is when you have enough money to make your mortgage payment, make your car payment, you can pay off your credit card bill every month, like you can afford the things that you're buying technically.

‘富裕’则意味着你拥有一定程度的独立性和自主权。

Wealthy, think, is when you have a degree of independence and autonomy.

这里奇怪的地方在于，财富是你没有花掉的钱。

The weird thing here is that wealth is the money that you don't spend.

财富就是那些你没买的房子、没买的车。

That's what wealth is, like the homes you didn't buy, and the car you didn't buy.

是你存下来并投资的钱，它会给你带来独立，我认为这一点很难让人理解——财富是你看不见的东西，因为你能看到我的房子、我的车、我的衣服，但你根本不知道我的净资产是多少。

It's money that you saved and invested that is gonna give you independence, and that's a hard thing for people, I think, to wrap their head around that wealth is what you don't see, because I can see your house, I can see your car, I can see your clothes, but I have no idea what your net worth is.

你看不到我的证券账户，也看不到我的银行账户。

I can't see your brokerage account, I can't see your bank account.

所以财富总是隐藏的，这会让很多人感到困惑，因为如果我想找一个身体健康方面的榜样，我至少能看到你的体态。

So wealth is always hidden, and it throws a lot of people for a loop, because if I was looking for a role model of physical fitness, well, I I can see your fitness.

我能看见你的体重、你的肌肉线条等等。

I can see your weight and your muscle tone whatnot.

这些都是可见的。

It's it's all visible.

但当你寻找一个财务榜样时，你会仰望谁呢？

But when you're looking for a financial role model, who do you look up to?

很多人，尤其是年轻人，会仰望那个住在豪宅里开法拉利的人。

And a lot of people, particularly young people, will look up to the guy in the mansion with the Ferrari.

但那个家伙，据你所知，可能也是月光族。

But that guy, for all you know, is living paycheck to paycheck.

很多这样的人都是如此。

A lot of a lot of those people are.

而真正富有且独立的人，可能就是那个住在普通房子、开着普通汽车的人，而你其实更想成为这样的人。

And the person who is actually wealthy and independent might be the person in the modest house driving the modest car that you would actually wanna be.

如果你想变得富有而不是仅仅富裕，想获得独立而不是仅仅按时支付月供，那么你真正应该仰望的人，往往是社会中最难识别的一群人。

If you wanna be wealthy instead of just rich, you want to be independent instead of just making your monthly payments, the people that you actually want to look up to are some of the hardest people to identify in society.

你仰望谁？

Who do you look up to?

总的来说，我敬佩的是那些随心所欲、拥有独立性的人。

In general, who I look up to are people who do whatever they want, people with independence.

而这其中有着巨大的差异范围。

And there's a huge range of that.

我认为有些人的净资产，你知道，只有六位数出头，但他们也是独立的。

I think there are people whose net worth is, you know, in the low 6 figures who are independent.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

有一位名叫Mustache先生的人

There's a guy named Mr.

他在大约十到十五年前开创了FIRE运动，他的故事是当他净资产达到60万美元时——这笔钱并不多——他就退休了，并以此过上了很好的生活。

Money Mustache who kind of started the FIRE movement, I don't know, ten or fifteen years ago, and his story was when his net worth was $600,000, not that much money, he retired and lived a great life on it.

还有其他人，你知道，显然杰夫·贝索斯和埃隆·马斯克是独立的，但我敢说埃隆·马斯克一天中超过一半的时间都在做他不想做的事情。

And there's other people, you know, obviously, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are independent, but I would I would venture that more than half of Elon Musk's day is is doing things that he doesn't wanna do.

就像是，你知道，堆积了所有这些事，他仍然被驱使着去做并完成它们，当然他明天就可以辞职，但还是在做那些他不一定想做的事。

It's like there's it's, you know, piling on all these things that, you know, he's he's still driven to do them and get them done, and of course he of course he could quit tomorrow, but doing things that he doesn't necessarily wanna do.

所以，任何每天醒来都能说‘今天我想做什么就做什么’的人。

So anyone who can wake up every day and say, like, I can do whatever I want today.

如果你拥有独立性，那就是我的个人目标。

If you have independence, that that's my personal goal.

因此，无论收入水平如何，那些拥有这种自由的人，正是我敬仰的对象。

So the people who have that at any income level are are the ones I look up to.

为什么有那么多有钱人？

Why are so many people who have money?

我觉得答案可能就藏在上一个问题里，但为什么有那么多实际上拥有大量财富或金钱的人却不快乐？

I think the answer is sort of maybe embedded in the last one, but why are so many people who actually have a lot of objective wealth or money, if you will, unhappy?

我们的朋友安德鲁·威尔金森说过一句话，我转述一下：很多非常成功的人，其实就是被用来提高效率的行走焦虑症患者。

Andrew Wilkinson, our friend, had a saying where he says, a lot of people, I'm paraphrasing him, but a lot of people who are very successful are just walking anxiety disorders harnessed for productivity.

我认为，帕特里克·奥肖内西曾说过，用来形容许多非常成功人士的唯一一个词，不是‘有动力’，也不是‘充满热情’，而是‘受折磨’。

And I think it was Patrick O'Shaughnessy who said the single word that he would use to describe a lot of very successful people is not driven, it's not passionate, it's tortured.

他们每天早上醒来都因‘我得解决这个问题’而备受煎熬。

They wake up every morning tortured about like, I'm trying to solve this problem.

我必须赶上去。

I have to get ahead.

我必须达成这个目标，他们真的每天醒来都充满焦虑和抑郁，为实现自己的目标而备受煎熬。

I have to hit this goal, and they are literally it's they wake up very anxious and depressed and, like, you know, just tortured about about achieving their things.

埃隆·马斯克几个月前接受了一次采访，他说，你可能以为你想成为我。

Elon Musk, couple months ago, gave an interview where he said, you might think you wanna be me.

是的。

Yeah.

意思是，作为世界上最富有的人、历史上最富有的人，但你并不想。

As in like the richest person in the world, richest person in history, but you don't.

他说过类似的话，比如，这里像龙卷风一样混乱。

And he was like, and I think he said something like, it's tornado up here.

我脑子里一团乱麻。

It's a mess inside of this head.

你绝对不想身处这样的头脑之中。

You do not wanna be inside of this head.

我觉得这真的很有道理。

I think that's really true.

我认为这是一个深刻的真相：你可能以为自己想要那样的生活，但那种生活是有代价的。

I think that's a profound truth that you might think you want that kind of life, but there is a cost to that life.

他之所以成功，是因为他整个成年生涯可能都带着痛苦醒来，努力解决这些问题。

And the reason he's successful is because he's probably woken up tortured for his entire adult life trying to solve these problems.

我很高兴并感激像他这样的人存在，因为他们让世界变得更好，创造了我们所有人都能受益的新技术。

I am so glad and grateful that people like himself exist, because they they made the world a better place, new technologies that we can all benefit from.

但说‘我很高兴你存在’和‘我想过你的生活’是两件截然不同的事。

But there's a big difference between saying, I'm glad you exist, and I would want your life.

这两者非常不同。

Those are two very different things.

这几乎像是我们只看到了结果。

It's almost like we're looking at the outcome.

我们想的是：我想要这个结果。

We're like, I want the outcome.

我不想要这些东西。

I don't want all this stuff.

我们对运动员也是这样看待的。

We do this with athletes too.

对吧？

Right?

我想要金牌。

I want the gold medal.

我不想要每天早上5点就开始训练，一周七天，我不想要那种生活。

I don't want the 5AM practices I seven days a don't want the

我想是纳瓦尔说过，你不能只挑别人生活中的某些部分，说我想拥有他的身材、她的净资产，还有他的房子。

I think it was Naval who said, you can't just pick and choose bits of someone's life and say, I want his physique and her net worth, and I want his house.

你必须接受全部的代价。

You have to take the whole package.

任何人生活中那些伟大的成就，背后都伴随着代价，无论是他们为事业成功所付出的努力。

And a lot of the great things in anyone's life, there's a cost that came with that, whether it's their career success that they had to put into it.

据说比尔·盖茨曾连续二十五年从未休过一天假。

There's stories that Bill Gates worked, I think it was twenty five years without ever taking a single day off.

在大多数日子里，他都是半夜才回家，倒在沙发上睡四个小时，然后又回去工作。

And most of the days he's working, it would be like he came home at midnight and crashed on the couch for four hours and then went back to work.

我非常感激他的存在，但我自己并不想要这样的生活。

I'm so grateful that he exists, but I would not want that for myself.

这并不是我心目中想要的生活定义。

That's not my definition of the life that I would want.

我们的朋友大卫·塞纳，他运营着播客《创始人》，已经采访了大约350位创始人。

Our friend David Senra, who runs the podcast Founders, has profiled, I think now, probably 350 founders over time.

他说，我不愿替他说话，但我很确定他说过，他读过的所有创始人传记中，唯一让他觉得‘我想过那样的生活’的，只有埃德·索普。

And he says, I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but I'm pretty sure he said, the only founder that he has ever read their biography and thought, I want his life, is Ed Thorpe.

而对他读过的其他所有人，我认为他得出了和我相同的结论。

And and everybody else that he reads it, I think he comes to the same conclusion that I do.

我很高兴他们存在。

I'm glad they exist.

我绝不想过他们的生活。

I would never wanna live their life.

因为总有一个隐藏的代价，当你深入了解时，你会意识到：是的，他之所以非常成功，是因为他牺牲了无数对你我而言至关重要的东西。

Because there's always a hidden cost that when you dig into it, you're like, yes, he was very successful because he sacrificed a million things that are very important to you and I.

我们来聊聊这一点。

Let's talk about that a little bit.

你非常成功。

You're incredibly successful.

你的书现在已经售出了超过五百多万册。

Your books have sold well over 5,000,000 copies now.

来找你的人，无论是请求你的时间、演讲，还是只想和你通十五分钟电话，数量肯定多得离谱。

The inbound to you for requests of your time, your speaking, your presence, hop on the phone for fifteen minutes, must be off the charts.

你是如何保持自己的事务范围很小，或者坚持做自己想做的事情的？

How do you keep your surface area small or keep doing the things that you wanna do?

要管理好这一切，唯一的办法就是几乎对所有人都说不，这让我感到很痛苦，原因有两个。

Well, the only way to manage that is to say no to virtually everyone, and that sucks for me for two reasons.

首先，我没有助理。

A, I don't have any assistant.

我亲自拒绝他们。

I'm personally saying no to them.

我不会把这件事推给别人，也不喜欢让人难过。

I don't pawn it off to anyone else, and I don't like making people sad.

当你拒绝某人，甚至礼貌地拒绝时，他们都会感到些许受伤。

When you blow someone off or even respectfully say no, they're going to be hurt a little bit.

我清楚地记得，我不会说出名字，但那些你和别人都认识的人，早年我曾主动联系他们，说：‘能不能花十五分钟向您请教一下？’

I vividly remember, I'm not going to say who, but names that you and people would know, that I reached out to early in my career and said, hey, can I please pick your brain for fifteen minutes?

他们拒绝了我，我当时很受伤。

And they said no, and I was hurt.

我至今仍记得那种感觉。

I still remember it.

我依然记得那些邮件。

I still remember the emails.

我记得大约十五年前曾联系过几位作家，我说：‘我叫摩根。’

I I remember reaching out to a couple of authors probably fifteen years ago and saying, my name is Morgan.

我是个有志于写作的人。

I'm an aspiring author.

我正努力尝试，我非常钦佩你们。

I'm trying to I'm trying to do I so admire you.

我能请你抽出十分钟打个电话吗？

Can I please ask you, you know, just ten minutes on the phone?

其中一些人没有回复，我至今仍记得这件事。

And some of them didn't respond, and I still remember that.

所以，如果任何还记得这件事的人，自己也到了不得不拒绝很多人的时候，那真的很糟糕。

So if anyone who remembers that gets in that same position themselves where they have to say no to a lot of people, it sucks.

但除此之外，别无他法。

But there's no other way to to handle it.

没有别的办法可以处理这件事。

There's no other way to manage it.

成功似乎就像我们之前讨论过的那样，它自己埋下了毁灭的种子。

It seems like success, and we've talked about this before, but success sows the seeds of its own destruction.

你怎么看待这一点？

How do you think about that?

它在哪些方面造成了这种结果？

In what ways does it do it?

最大的问题是，成功会让你变得懒惰，并且会削弱让你变得卓越的那些特质。

The the biggest is just that it allows you to become lazy, and it's going to degrade the thing that made you great.

让你真正取得成功的原因，很可能是你每天醒来时都感到自己不够好。

What made you, literally you, successful is probably some degree of waking up and feeling inadequate.

每天醒来都想着：我知道自己能做得比现在更好，我必须去实现它。

Just waking up and being like, I know I'm capable of doing more than I've achieved already, and I gotta go do it.

这种情况非常普遍。

And it's pretty common.

无论是源于自卑还是其他原因，你每天醒来都会觉得：我今天必须取得比现在更多的成就。

Whether that was driven by a lack of self esteem, whatever it was, you're waking up, and you're like, I need to achieve more than I have today.

一旦你达到某个层次，就很容易觉得：我已经做到了，于是让你成功那种动力就会减弱。

And once you achieve some level, it's easy to be like, well, I've already done that, and then the thing that made you successful, that drive you had is diminished.

你在公司和人身上都能看到这一点。另一个非常关键的是，当你地位较低时，周围的人更容易指出你的错误；而当你爬得越高，尤其是达到顶尖水平时，就没人愿意告诉你做错了什么，因为你很可能在付钱让那些围绕你的人提供意见，而他们不敢告诉你皇帝没穿衣服。

You see this in companies and in people, and the other thing that's really powerful is when you are lower on the totem pole, it's easier for everyone around you to tell you what you're doing wrong, and the higher you gain, particularly when you get up to the very high levels, no one wants to tell you you're doing wrong because you're probably paying those people to be surrounded, to surround you with advice, and they don't want to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

这种情况在很多人和很多公司身上都会发生。

That happens to a lot, lots of people, lots of companies and whatnot.

让你变得卓越的东西，随着你越成功反而越被削弱，有些人能很好地对抗这种趋势，但很多人做不到。

The thing that made you great is degraded the more successful that you become, and some people fight this very well, but a lot of people don't.

这是一件很难的事。

It's a tough thing.

我认为，一旦你经济上更独立，懒惰就会成为问题，你不再有动力了。

I think the laziness aspect of it, of once you become more financially independent, you're not driven.

在我的大部分职业生涯中，我写作是因为那是我养活孩子的手段。

For most of my career, I was writing because that was how I fed my children.

我必须做这件事。

I have to do this.

是的，我非常喜欢。

Yes, I love it.

是的，我喜欢，但我必须做这件事。

Yes, I enjoy it, but I absolutely have to do this.

一旦你达到某个阶段，会觉得：看，我仍然喜欢做这件事，但我不再非做不可了。

Once you get to a point where it's like, look, I still love to do this, but I don't have to do it anymore.

我的动力是不是比以前低了？

Is my motivation lower than it used to?

我认为答案是肯定的。

I think the answer is yes.

我不太愿意承认这一点，但我认为答案是肯定的。

Like I don't like to admit that, but I think the answer is yes.

现在我依然很有动力，依然非常有动力继续写作，因为我热爱这件事。

Now I'm still as motivated, I'm still very motivated to keep writing, because I love doing it.

而且我觉得，现在我不再为了养活孩子而写作，其中有一部分我反而更享受了。

And I think there's a part of it that I enjoy more now that I'm not doing it to feed my children.

我做这件事是因为我单纯热爱写作这门艺术，而不是写作的商业层面，但人们的动机随着时间会改变。

I'm doing it because I just love because I love the the the art of writing rather than just the business of writing, but people's motivations change over time.

现在这部分非常好。

Now part of that is is great.

我不希望到60岁还得为了养活自己而工作，但你不该假装这不会影响让你变得优秀的东西。

I don't wanna be 60 years old and having to work to to feed myself this week, but you shouldn't pretend that it's gonna not impact the thing that made you great.

我想稍后再谈写作。

I wanna come to writing later on.

我对你在这方面的方法有很多问题。

I got a lot of questions about your process around that.

但在那之前，什么是风险？

But before we get there, what is risk?

你可以有一百万种不同的风险定义。

You can have a million different definitions of risk.

我认为广义上，风险就是任何会阻碍你实现目标的东西。

I think broadly, it's anything that's gonna prevent you from achieving the goals that you want.

这是一个非常基础的回答，但我觉得这就是风险的本质。

That's a a very basic answer, but I think that's what it is.

这一点之所以重要，是因为以股市的波动为例。

And the reason that's important is because take volatility in the stock market.

这是风险吗？

Is that risk?

嗯，有可能是。

Well, it could be.

如果你是个日内交易者，那确实是。

If you're a day trader, then yes.

如果明天市场下跌，对你来说就是风险。

The market goes down tomorrow, that's a risk for you.

如果你还有五十年才退休，那就完全不是风险。

If you're in if you're gonna retire in fifty years, it's not whatsoever.

所以，从个人角度来定义风险才是最重要的，但很多金融领域却不是这样做的。

So just defining it in personal terms is I think the most important, but a lot of finance is not that.

他们把风险定义为波动性，不管是什么——衰退、各种其他因素，但这是一个非常个人化的问题。

They define risk as volatility, whatever it might be, recessions, all these different things, but it's a very personal answer.

对我来说是风险的事，对你可能不是，反之亦然。

What is risky for me might not be for you and vice versa.

这正是大多数金融争论的根源，或者说是不同时间跨度的人们在互相误解。

And this is what gets back to most financial debates or people with different time horizons talking over each other.

我非常喜欢一句话：个人理财，个人的部分比理财的部分更重要。

There's a quote I love that is personal finance is more personal than it is finance.

这对每个人来说都非常重要。

That is really important for everyone.

你和我不应该假装，文艺复兴科技公司的风险会和你我家庭的个人风险一样。

You and I should not pretend that risk for Renaissance Technologies is gonna be the same for you and I within our personal households.

完全是、彻底地不同。

Like, complete completely and utterly different.

任何偏离你个人目标的事情，我都将其定义为风险。

Anything that pulls you away from whatever goals you personally have is what I would define as risk.

如果你必须

If you had to

分析一下积累财富、守住财富和花费财富之间的技能差异，你会怎么做？

break down the skill differences between accumulating money, keeping money, and spending money, how would you do that?

我经常将其定义为致富和守富是完全不同的技能。

I've often defined it as getting rich and staying rich are completely different skills.

很少有人在致富和守富方面同样擅长。

And there's not that many people who are equally skilled in getting rich versus staying rich.

社会上有一小部分人非常擅长致富，却完全没有守住财富的能力。

There's a sliver of society that's very good at getting rich, that has no ability to stay rich.

也有些人非常擅长守住财富，但在创造和长期增长财富方面却不太有天赋。

And there's some people who are very good at holding onto money, but much less talented at building it and growing it over time.

当你同时具备这两种技能时，就非常难得了。

When you have both skills combined, it's a very special thing.

巴菲特显然是这样的人，比尔·盖茨也是。

Buffett is obviously that, Bill Gates is that.

有一小部分人非常擅长致富，并且很好地保持了财富。

There's a handful of people who are extremely good at getting rich and have stayed rich very well.

我常举的例子是比尔·盖茨创办微软时，做出了可能是历史上最大胆的创业冒险——他声称世界上每张办公桌上都需要一台电脑。

The example that I always use is Bill Gates when he started Microsoft, took the most audacious entrepreneurial swing that maybe anyone's ever taken of saying every desk in the world needs a computer on this.

而他说这话是在1974年，或者类似的时间。

And he's saying this in 1974, whatever it was.

巨大的风险。

Crazy amount of risk.

极其大胆的远见。

Crazy bold vision.

与此同时，他表示他始终希望微软的银行账户里有足够的现金，即使完全没有收入，也能支付一年的工资，这是最保守、最悲观的经营方式。

At the same time, he said that he always wanted Microsoft to have enough cash in the bank to make payroll for one year with no revenue, which is the most conservative, pessimistic way to run a business.

所以他既非常敢于冒险，又极其保守、多疑。

So he's like very risk taking and very conservative paranoid at the same time.

既非常擅长致富，又非常擅长守富。

Very good at getting rich, very good at staying rich at the same time.

同时具备这两种特质非常独特。

It's very unique to have both of those acting at the same time.

我认为在个人层面上，也可以做到。

And I think at at the individual level, can have it too.

我的净资产，你会说，是非常两极分化的。

My my net worth, you'd say, is, like, is very barbelled.

有大量的现金，这是谨慎保守的一面，还有我希望持有五十年的股票。

Like, a lot of cash, that's the paranoid conservative side, and stocks that I hope to own hold for fifty years.

这简直大胆至极，认为未来五十年真的会成功。

That's, like, incredibly audacious that that this is actually gonna work out over the next half century.

我认为这并不矛盾。

And I I don't think that's that's any contradiction.

这只是试图同时掌握致富和守富的两种能力。

It's just trying to get both of the skills of getting rich and staying rich work at the same time.

说到守富，我们昨晚谈到的一个故事是范德比尔特家族，他们几乎挥霍掉了四千亿美元的财富。

Speaking of staying rich, one of the stories we talked about last night was the Vanderbilts and how they basically blew a $400,000,000,000 fortune.

发生了什么？

What happened?

如果你看看所有那些强盗大亨、非常富有的家族——卡内基、JP·摩根、福特、洛克菲勒、范德比尔特，我认为几乎所有的家族都成功地管理了他们的家族财富，只有范德比尔特家族例外。

If you look at all of the robber baron, very wealthy families, the Carnegies, the JP Morgans, the Fords, the Rockefellers, the Vanderbilts, I think virtually all of them did well or did a decent job at managing that dynastic money except the Vanderbilts.

范德比尔特家族彻底搞砸了。

The Vanderbilts completely and utterly botched it.

数据显示，你知道，当科尼利厄斯·范德比尔特去世时，他的净资产经过通货膨胀调整后（因为他死于19世纪），相当于4000亿美元。

The stat is, you know, when Cornelius Vanderbilt died, his net worth adjusted for inflation, because he died in the eighteen hundreds, was the equivalent of $400,000,000,000.

但在三代人之后，什么都没剩下，这真是令人难以置信。

And in three generations, there was nothing left, which is an astounding thing to think about.

在这期间，有三代人只是以你能想象到的最愚蠢的方式挥霍财富。

And in between there sat three generations who just blew money in the dumbest ways you can imagine.

你之所以说这很愚蠢，是因为我认为他们中没有一个人真正快乐。

And the reason you could say it was dumb is because I don't think any of them were happy.

如果你深入研究这三代人的传记，你会发现他们几乎都过得很悲惨。

I think they were pretty much all miserable, if you dig into the biographies of these three generations.

其他许多罗伯特·巴伦家族都会教导他们的孩子或继承人经营企业，或成为优秀的慈善家，无论是什么，而范德比尔特家族却实际上告诉他们的继承人：你们在这个世界上唯一的任务就是花比任何人都多的钱。

A lot of the other Robert Barron families taught their children, taught their heirs to run the business, or to become good philanthropists, whatever it was, the Vanderbilts effectively told their heirs, your job, your sole purpose on this planet is to spend more money than anyone else.

于是他们真的这么做了。

And so they did it.

他们建造了巨大的豪宅，大到连他们自己都不愿意住，因为实在太庞大了。

They built the biggest houses that were so big they didn't even want to live in them because they were too big.

他们举办极其奢华的派对，这些派对反而成了他们自己的负担。

They threw parties that were so extravagant, they were just burdens on themselves.

他们唯一的财务标准就是：你能比其他社交名媛花更多的钱吗？而他们都为此感到痛苦。

Their sole financial metric is can you spend more money than the other socialite, And they were all miserable for it.

现在很多人知道的故事是，第一个没有继承到任何财富的范德比尔特继承人，当家族财产全部耗尽时，就是CNN的安德森·库珀。

And the the the story that a lot of people know now is that the first Vanderbilt heir to not get any money, when all the money was exhausted, the first heir where there's nothing left was Anderson Cooper of CNN.

他的母亲名叫格洛丽亚·范德比尔特。

His mother was a woman named Gloria Vanderbilt.

她拿到了家族最后的一笔信托基金。

She she got the kind of the the last trust fund in the family.

库珀不仅是过去一百八十年来最成功的范德比尔特继承人，很可能也是最幸福的。

And Cooper is not only the most successful Vanderbilt heir in, like, a hundred and eighty years, he's probably the happiest.

他曾经谈到过，你所继承的财富，可能会成为你抱负的负担，成为你建立自我身份的阻碍。

And he's talked about this, that money that you are given, that you inherit, can be a burden to your ambition, a burden to your identity of building a name for yourself.

他是第一个从‘我必须延续范德比尔特家族社会名流身份’这一负担中解脱出来的范德比尔特一代人。

And he was kind of the first Vanderbilt era who was relieved of the burden of having to carry on this thing of like, I'm a socialite.

我是范德比尔特。

I'm a Vanderbilt.

他只是觉得，我必须自己打造属于我的名字和事业。

And he's just like, I gotta go build my own name and my own career.

我确信，因为他的母亲是格洛丽亚·范德比尔特，一些大门为他敞开，而这些门对其他人来说是关闭的，但他在过去一百五十年里，第一次必须完全靠自己打拼。

And I'm sure because his mother was Gloria Vanderbilt, were doors open to him that would not be open to anyone else, but he pretty much had to build it for himself for the first time in a hundred and fifty years.

你认为财富应该能在父母和子女之间传承吗？

Do you believe that money should be able to pass between parents and kids?

嗯，能传承，当然可以。

Well, able, sure.

这是你的决定，但显然也有不利之处。

It's your decision, but there are obviously downsides.

我确信，希望在很长一段时间内，我会留给孩子们一些钱，但不会很多。

And I'm sure, I hope it's a long time for now, that I'll leave my kids some money, not a lot.

我喜欢巴菲特的一句话：留给孩子们足够的钱，让他们能做任何事，但不要多到让他们无所事事。

I love the Buffett quote where he says, leave your kids enough money so that they can do anything, but not so much money that they can do nothing.

我认为这非常重要。

And that I think is really important.

我想用我存下的钱，给孩子们最好的机会，去建立他们想要的生活，而不是多到迫使他们过上我希望他们过的生活。

I wanna use whatever money I've saved to give my kids the best opportunity of building the life that they want, but not so much money that they are forced to live the life that I want for them.

我见过一些非常富有的家庭，财富变成了一种人格负担——因为继承了这么多钱，我的职责就只是当一个继承者，继承祖父、父母的遗产，而不是去发现真正的自己。

I've met some families who very wealthy, and wealth becomes like a personality burden of because I inherited this much money, my job is to just be an heir of my grandfather, an heir of my parents, rather than finding out who I am and discovering who I am for myself.

在极高财富阶层确实如此，但你不想让你传给孩子的财富，成为让他们陷入不愿过的生活的负担。

That's true at the very high levels, but you don't want the wealth that you pass your kids to burden them into a lifestyle that they don't want for themselves.

你只想说：这里有足够的钱，让你拥有选择的主动权和工具，去发现你想成为谁，过你想过的生活，但又不至于多到迫使你走向你并不想走的方向。

You just want to be like, here's enough money so that you can have the leverage and the tools to find out who you want to be, and live the life that you want, but not so much that it's going to burden you into forcing you into a direction that you don't want to be.

这简直就像表面积呈几何级数增长：你拥有的房子越多，就需要越多的员工。

It's almost like there's geometric progression of surface area here where the more houses you acquire, the more staff you need.

需要的员工越多，管理者也就越多。

The more staff you need, the more managers you have.

我跟萨姆·泽尔聊过，我们本来打算录一档播客，但因为不幸去世，这件事最终没成。

More managers I was talking to Sam Zell, we were supposed to record a podcast, it never happened because he unfortunately passed away.

但当我跟他聊天时，他只想要两套房子。

But when I was talking to him, just wanted two houses.

他并不想要十套房子。

He didn't want 10 houses.

他也不想要这么多东西。

He didn't want all of these things.

他说，我可以直接租出去。

He's like, I can just rent them.

我不想应付这些麻烦。

I don't want the hassle.

我不想要随之而来的负担。

I don't want the burden that comes with that.

你觉得我们是否忽略了这一点？

Do you think that we lose sight of that?

然后财富自然会有一种熵增趋势。

And then there's sort of like a natural entropy to wealth.

对吧？

Right?

它开始扩张，是的。

Like it starts to expand Yeah.

而你要付出大量努力才能让它保持小规模。

And you actually have to apply a lot of energy to keep it small.

是的。

Yeah.

显然，钱越多，并不意味着你会更不快乐。

It's obviously not the case that the more money you have, the less happy you're gonna be.

这显然是错误的。

That's obviously wrong.

但我认为，如果你有更多的钱，你的生活可能会变得更复杂，而复杂性往往会带来很多不快乐。

But I think if you have more money, you can have a more complicated life, and complication can lead to a lot of unhappiness.

这确实是真的。

That's definitely true.

我认为这主要适用于中等财富水平的人。

And I think this is mostly true for people who are like middle wealth.

如果你是顶级富豪，你可以把所有决定都外包出去。

If you're like extreme upper wealth, you can just hire out every decision.

别人可以替你处理这些事。

People can take care of it for you.

是那些有足够的钱买第二套房子，却必须自己打理的人。

It's people who have enough money to buy a second home, but they have to manage it themselves.

这才是生活中真正变得极其复杂的时候。

That's when things get, like, really complicated in your life.

很多年前，我曾为一群NBA新秀进行过一次咨询会谈。

Many years ago, I did this consulting session with a group of NBA rookies.

他们中有些人只有19、20岁，却已经赚到了数百万美元。

Were they were some of them were 19, 20 years old, and they're now making millions.

他们中的许多人从小在城市贫民区长大，生活极其贫困。

And a lot of them grew up in, like, inner city poverty.

他们小时候非常非常穷，到了青少年时期，却签下了数百万美元的合同。

They grew up very, very poor, and when they are teenagers, they sign contracts for millions of dollars.

这对他们来说是一种巨大的转变。

It's, such a stark movement for them.

这次谈话的目的是讨论金钱问题，以防止运动员普遍陷入破产的悲剧。

And the purpose of this conversation was to talk about money to try to prevent the very well known path of athletes going bankrupt.

有相当大比例的这些人，在30岁之前就破产了。

A very significant percentage of these people who make millions of dollars are bankrupt by the time they're 30.

那么，我们该如何避免这种情况呢？

So like, how do we prevent that?

其中一位运动员，我想他当时19岁，说了一番话，我觉得非常深刻而睿智。

And one of these athletes, who was, I think he was 19, said something that I thought was so profound and wise.

他说，当你在城市贫民区长大，却在年轻时赚到数百万美元，这钱并不只是你的钱。

He said, when you grow up in inner city poverty, and then you make millions of dollars when you're still young, that's not just your money.

是的。

Mhmm.

这是妈妈的钱。

That is mom's money.

这是哥哥的钱。

That is brother's money.

这是表亲的钱。

That is cousin's money.

这是邻居的钱。

That is neighbor's money.

你不能只是对家里的所有人说：祝你们好运。

You can't just tell everyone back at home, good luck to y'all.

我赚到了我的钱。

I got my money.

我要去住大豪宅了。

I'm gonna go live in the mansion.

你却还停留在这个层次，你不能这么做。

You stay in this level of you can't do that.

他说，那么多运动员破产的原因，并不是因为他们给自己买了豪宅。

And he said the reason so many athletes go bankrupt is not because they bought themselves a mansion.

而是因为他们给第五代堂表亲买了房子，他们感到巨大的压力，不得不这么做，这种金钱背后带来了沉重的社会负担。

It's because they bought their fifth cousin a house, and they felt so much pressure to do it that they had this, like, social burden that came with the money.

我认为，在很多不同的层面上，这虽然是一个极端的例子，但在很多方面，金钱确实伴随着一种社会债务。

And I think at many different levels, that's an extreme example, but at a lot of levels, there is social debt that comes with money.

所以，无论你在哪个财富层级，比如你的净资产增加了一美元，随之而来的可能就是几美分的社会债务——你会被激励，或被推着去提升生活方式，或以某种方式照顾他人，这些事或许很好，但也可能成为负担，成为伴随金钱而来的债务。

So if you at every level of net worth, like if your net worth grows by $1, with that comes a couple pennies maybe of, like, social debt where you are, like, incentivized or, like, push towards to increase your lifestyle or to take care of other people in ways that might be great, but might be a burden, might be a debt that comes with it.

在某个时刻，我认为这种社会债务会彻底爆发。

And at some point, I think that social debt explodes.

我的意思是，那些身家高达五亿或一千亿美元的人，当然数量不多，但他们肩负着明智使用和捐赠这笔财富的社会责任，这种责任大得惊人。

I mean, people who are worth, you know, 50 or $100,000,000,000, obviously, there's not that many of them, but their social debt to use that money wisely and to donate that money money wisely is off the charts.

这压力巨大。

It's enormous.

他们承受着巨大压力，必须善用这笔钱，不要落得像范德比尔特家族那样的下场。

The pressure that they have to use that money well, to not end up like the Vanderbilts.

你知道，杰夫·贝佐斯和比尔·盖茨在有效捐赠财富方面承受着多大的压力吗？

You know, how much pressure does Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates have to donate their money effectively?

无论他们做什么，无论捐给哪个事业，人们总会说：‘那个事业不够值得。’

And no matter what they do, no matter what causes they give to, people are going to say, well, that's not a worthy cause.

这个比那个更值得。

This was more worthy than that.

这种巨额的、看不见的社会负债随之而来。

Enormous amount of invisible social debt that comes with that.

跟我多讲讲这个。

Talk to me more about that.

我特别喜欢这个概念。

I love that concept.

我不想讨论那些极端例子，比如贝索斯那种情况。

I don't want to talk about extremes where, like, Bezos Yeah.

以及类似的情况。

Mosque and that.

但是这种社会债务，就像你去参加婚礼时，因为你有更多钱就得给更多礼金。

But the the social debt, like, almost like you go to a wedding and you have to give more because you have more.

是不是

Is that

或者当你朋友知道你有钱时，你们一起出去吃饭，你就被迫买单之类的。

Or you go out to if your friends know that you have money, you go out to dinner, you're you're forced to pay kind of thing.

或者就像，哦，我听说这家伙去年刚拿了一大笔奖金。

Or like, oh, I heard I heard this guy just got a huge bonus last year.

让我们看看他会送我什么圣诞礼物之类的。

Let's see what he gets me for Christmas kind of thing.

这背后确实伴随着很多东西。

That there's there's a lot of that that comes with it.

当然，这也是个好问题。

And, course, it's a good problem to have.

你根本不该同情那些赚了太多钱而如今背负社交债务的人，别哭了，自己想办法解决吧。

It's you you should not have sympathy for people who made so much money that they now have social debt, like boohoo, know, deal with it.

但这确实是个现实问题，很多时候只是你自己或家人内心的驱动力，比如：我们现在钱多了，大概该买更多东西了。

But it's a real thing, and a lot of it is just the incentive on yourself, or within your own family to be like, oh, we have more money now, I guess we should buy more stuff.

这是一种压力，让你去做一些你可能根本不想做的事。

It's like this pressure to do something that you may or may not actually want.

我还想到一个奇怪的小故事：从华盛顿特区到波士顿的美铁列车上，总有一节安静车厢。

One one other, like like, weird oddball story that I've thought about here, on the Amtrak train from Washington DC to Boston is where it goes, there is always a quiet car.

那是列车上一个特定区域，如果你想要工作或休息，就必须保持完全安静。

It's it's one section of the train where you're supposed to be completely quiet if you wanna get some work done or whatnot.

但总是发生的是，你去那里是为了寻求宁静，可安静车厢里的每个人却都如此焦虑不安。

And always what happens, you go there for peace and serenity, but everyone on the quiet car is so anxious and upset.

因为在安静车厢里，只要有人轻声细语，或者手机不小心响了，人们就会崩溃，因为他们期待这里完全安静。

Because on the quiet car, if someone so much as whispers, or if your phone accidentally goes off, people lose their minds because they have this expectation that it's gonna be completely quiet.

所以哪怕是最微小的声音，都会让他们失控。

And so the slightest little sound sets them off.

讽刺的是，你去那里是为了寻求宁静，但你却因此变得异常愤怒，因为只要有人发出一点声音，你就会抓狂。

And the irony is you go there for serenity, but you're just so angry while you're there because if anyone's making any noise, it drives you crazy.

这其实说明了一个道理：一旦你的期望改变了，再小的事都可能让你沮丧。

And it's this thing of just like, if your expectations shift, then the littlest thing can can make you upset.

所以当你进入安静车厢时，没错，它确实更安静，但你也因此背上了某种‘声音债务’。

So like when you go to the quiet car, yes, it is quieter, but you also have this like sound debt that comes with it, you could say.

这种看不见的声音债务，现在成了一种负担。

This invisible sound debt that is a liability now.

我觉得金钱也是如此，你赚的钱越多，就越有压力要去过一种更好的生活，而这种生活未必真的让你更快乐。

And I think it's so true with money as well, that the more money you gain, the more pressure you have to live a better life that may or may not actually make you happier.

演员威尔·史密斯说过，当他贫穷又沮丧时，他会告诉自己：只要我有更多的钱，所有问题都会消失。

Will Smith, the actor said that when he was poor and depressed, he could tell himself, if only I had more money, all my problems would go away.

是的。

Right.

当他变得富有后，却依然抑郁，他就不能再这么说下去了。

And then when he became rich, and he was still depressed, he couldn't say that anymore.

他依然感到抑郁，但他意识到：我不能再讲‘如果我有更多的钱，我就会更快乐’了，因为我已经拥有远超我所需的钱了。

He was still depressed, but he was like, I can't say that if I had more money, I would be happier, because I already had more money than I could ever spend.

所以他说，当他变得富有时，只是剥夺了他原有的希望。

So he said what happened when he became rich is it just removed the hope that he had.

当他贫穷时，他怀抱着希望：只要我赚更多钱，一切就会好起来。

When he was poor, he had this hope like, oh, I gotta make more money, and then I'll be okay.

当他富有后，他发现自己失去了所有的希望。

When he's rich, he's like he lost all the hope.

他依然感到抑郁。

He's still depressed.

以为‘只要我有钱，我的问题就会消失’，这种想法确实很鼓舞人心；但当你真的拥有了这些钱，却发现问题依然存在，甚至更多时，这可能让人难以接受。

Like, it's it's very inspiring to think if I have more money, my problems will go away, But then once you have that money and you realize that you still have just as many problems, maybe even more problems than you had before, that could be a tough thing for people to wrap their heads around.

我们昨晚聊到过这一点，意思是那些有钱人其实也无法真正谈论金钱，因为他们和普通人一样面临同样的问题，但他们觉得不能公开谈论，因为听起来像是在抱怨。

We were talking about that a little bit last night in the sense of people who have money can't really talk about money either because they have all the same problems that everybody else has, but they don't feel like they can openly converse about it because it's like boohoo.

确实如此。

It's true.

这些都是抱怨的问题。

They are boohoo problems.

世界上有大得多的问题，比如你付不起医疗保险，或者无家可归，等等，那些问题要严重得多。

There are much bigger problems in the world if you can't afford health insurance, you're homeless, whatever, there are much, much bigger problems.

但第一世界的问题在人们心里确实是真实的问题，你说得对，大多数人确实不敢谈论这些。

But first world problems are real problems in people's heads, and you're right that they're, by and large, can't talk about them.

当你把一群富人聚在一起，让他们在一个安全的环境中开始交谈时，他们会发现彼此的问题竟然都一模一样。

It's very interesting when you get together a group of wealthy people into a room where they can all start, like in that safety zone, they can talk about their problems, and they all have the same problems.

是的。

Yeah.

我该怎么不宠坏我的孩子？

How do I not spoil my kids?

我该怎么做呢？

How do I do this?

这些问题是他们无法与生活中任何人谈论的，因为这些问题与那些真正现实的物质健康生活问题截然不同，但当你拥有大量财富，甚至只是适度的金钱时，会有很多难以解决的问题，连你最亲近的朋友都无法倾诉。

Things that they can't talk about with anyone else in their life because those problems are so different from the other, like, very real material health living problems, but there are lots of things that are very difficult to figure out when you have a lot of money, or even just a modest amount of money that you can't talk about, even with some of your closest friends.

是的。

Yeah.

我肯定你有一些朋友，他们的经济状况比你和我差。

I am sure you do have friends who have less money than you and I do.

对。

Yeah.

你可以和那些朋友聊，任何其他事情都可以谈。

And you can talk about with those friends, you can talk about anything else in Yeah.

婚姻问题、健康问题，不管是什么问题。

Problems with your marriage, problems with your health, whatever it might be.

但还有许多其他事情，你心里想着：我根本没法谈论那些现在真正让我焦虑的问题。

And there's all these other things that you're like, I can't talk about the things that are actually giving me anxiety right now.

现在看来，贯穿整个对话，我们需要思考的元技能是如何学会管理我们的期望。

It seems like the meta skill to think about right now throughout this conversation is how do we learn to manage our expectations?

这也许就是我们当初开始这个播客的初衷。

This is maybe this is how we started the podcast.

我不希望我的期望永远不变。

I don't want my expectations to never move.

我希望它们的增长速度能比我的财富增长稍慢一些。

I want them to just grow a little bit slower than my wealth over time.

我希望在五十年后，我的物质生活能在某种程度上变得更好。

I want it so that in fifty years, I hope that I'm living a better material life to to some degree.

我只是不希望这个水平在时间推移中超过我的净资产。

I just want that level to not exceed my net worth over time.

一旦你的抱负超过了财富的增长，人们就会开始承担过高的风险。

Once your aspirations exceed your the growth of your wealth, that's when people get they take too much risk.

他们会负债，不管是什么情况。

They go into debt, whatever it might be.