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欢迎收听知识项目播客，这里汇集了他人已总结出的精华，助你将这些洞见应用到自己的生活中。
Welcome to the Knowledge Project podcast about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out so you can apply their insights to your life.
我是你的主持人，帕里什。
I'm your host, Parrish.
每周日，我会向超过六十万人发送《脑力食粮》通讯。
Every Sunday, I send out the Brain Food newsletter to over 600,000 people.
它被誉为互联网的降噪耳机，里面充满了可以应用于生活与工作的永恒智慧。
It's considered noise canceling headphones for the Internet, and it's full of timeless wisdom you can apply to life and work.
免费注册，前往 fs.blog/newsletter 了解你错过的精彩内容。
Sign up for free and see what you're missing at fs.blog/newsletter.
如果你正在听这段内容，那你正错过它。
If you're listening to this, you're missing it.
如果你想在公开发布前收听播客、获取其他平台没有的特别节目、精心校对的文本稿、提前活动资格，或者只是想支持你喜爱的节目，可以前往 fs.blog/membership 加入会员。
If you'd like access to the podcast before public release, special episodes that don't appear anywhere else, hand edited transcripts, prerelease events, or you just wanna support the show you love, you can join at fs.blog/membership.
请查看节目说明以获取链接。
Check out the show notes for a link.
在过去五年里，我有幸与世界上一些最杰出的人进行了对话。
Over the last five years, I've been lucky enough to speak with some of the most incredible people in the world.
当我回听这些过往的节目时，最让我印象深刻的是，这些观点经得起时间的考验。
When I listen to these past episodes, one thing that stands out for me is how well the ideas stand the test of time.
它们今天依然和当初录制时一样相关且富有洞察力。
They're as relevant and insightful today as when they were originally recorded.
因此，每年我们会几次回溯早期的节目——有些你可能错过了，有些你可能已经忘了，并围绕一个主题提炼出关键见解。
That's why a few times a year, we go back to earlier episodes, some of which you may have missed, some of which you might have forgotten, and pull out some key insights around a single theme.
本期的主题是学习与思考。
The theme for this episode is learning and thinking.
你将听到丹尼尔·卡尼曼分享如何营造更有利于清晰思考的环境，以及如何提升你的直觉。
You'll hear Daniel Kahneman give advice on how to create an environment that's more conducive to clear thinking and explain ways to improve your intuition.
接着，芭芭拉·奥克利将为你讲解两种主要的思维模式：发散思维和专注思维。
Then Barbara Oakley will teach you about the two main modes of thinking, diffuse thinking and focused thinking.
你还将连续听到亚当·罗宾逊关于学习过程的两段内容。
You'll hear back to back segments from Adam Robinson on the learning process.
此外，他还解释了为什么你最重要的洞见最初往往感觉不合逻辑。
Plus he explains how and why your biggest insights can often feel illogical at first.
然后，泰勒·科文将讲解如何通过在线实验来培养良好的判断力。
Tyler Cowen will then explain how to use online experimentation to develop good judgment.
最后，亚当·格兰特将运用‘传道者、检察官和政客’这一理念，解释我们为自己构建的身份如何常常导致思维中的盲点。
And finally, Adam Grant will use the idea behind preacher, prosecutor, and politician to explain how the identities we develop for ourselves can often cause us to have blind spots in our thought process.
此外，他还讨论了一个关于纠正这些错误的精彩隐喻。
Plus, he discusses a brilliant metaphor for fixing those mistakes.
现在，是时候聆听和学习了。
It's time to listen and learn.
来自第68期节目，以下是丹尼尔·卡尼曼。
From episode number 68, here's Daniel Kahneman.
我想再回到情境决策的问题上，谈谈我们所看到的似乎就是全部，以及我们无法摆脱的那些感受。
I wanna come back to sort of situational decision making based on sort of like what we see is all there is, and we have these feelings that we can't sort of disassociate with.
环境在我们的决策中扮演了什么角色？比如物理环境，它是否会影响我们的决定？
How does environment play a role, like the physical environment in sort of what we decide or does it?
我的意思是，我们知道一些显而易见的事情。
I mean, you know, there are sort of obvious thing that we know.
人们情绪激动、分心，周围噪音很多，这时候他们的思考就会变差。
People are hot and bothered and distracted and there is a lot of noise and so on, then they'll think less well.
这些我们都知道。
That we know.
但即便如此，也还有一些谜团。
But even there, there are puzzles.
很多人其实觉得在咖啡馆里思考和工作效果更好，那里有背景噪音和活动，反而能帮他们更好地集中注意力。
I mean, many people think and work a lot better in cafes, you know, where there is actually ambient noise and activity around them and it helps them concentrate better.
这有一个关于环境的简单解释。
There's a simple story of the environment.
但当然，你也可以把环境搞得太过恶劣，让人根本没法好好思考。
But certainly you can make the environment tough enough so that people won't be able to think properly.
这是完全可以做到的。
That's feasible.
我们有没有办法，比如说，改善物理环境，让它更有利于清晰思考？
Are there things that we could do to, I guess, push the environment to be more conducive to clearer thinking, the physical environment in this case?
哦，有很多奇怪的细节，比如房间的颜色。
Oh, there are all sorts of, you know, odd fine dange, you know, the color of the color of the room.
有些颜色比其他颜色更好，这你也能预料到。
Some colors are better than others, and you would expect that.
有些颜色比其他颜色更让人平静。
Some colors are more calming than others.
所以你不想待在一个红色的房间里。
So you wouldn't want to be in a in a red room.
做决定。
Making decisions.
做决定。
Making decisions.
但你知道，这些都是一些极端且微小的影响。
But, you know, those are extreme and minor effects.
我想稍后再谈直觉和噪音。
I wanna come to intuition and noise later.
还有没有其他明显妨碍清晰思考的因素，我们可以现在提出来讨论？
Is there anything else that stands out that gets in the way of clear thinking that we can sort of bring to the surface now?
你知道，妨碍清晰思考的是我们对几乎所有事情都有直觉性的看法。
Well, you know, what gets in the way of clear thinking is that we have intuitive views of almost everything.
所以，只要你向我提出一个问题，我就会立刻有一个现成的答案。
So as soon as you present a problem to me, I have have some ready made answer.
妨碍清晰思考的就是这些现成的答案，而我们无法避免拥有它们。
And what gets in the way of clear thinking are those ready made answers, and we can't help but have them.
所以，这是妨碍思考的一个因素。
So that's one thing that gets in the way.
情绪也会妨碍思考。
Emotions get in the way.
我认为，独立的清晰思考在很大程度上是不可能的，因为通常我们相信某些事情，并不是因为我们有充分的理由去相信它们。
And I would say that independent clear thinking is, to a first approximation, impossible in the sense that, you know, we believe in things most of the time, not because we have good reasons to believe them.
如果你问我理由，我会解释给你。
If you ask me for reasons, I'll explain you.
我总会找到一个理由，但这些理由并不是我们信念的成因。
I'll always find a reason, but the reasons are not the causes of our beliefs.
我们拥有信念，主要是因为相信某些人，信任他们，并采纳他们的观点。
We have beliefs because mostly we believe in some people and we trust them and we adopt their beliefs.
所以我们并不是通过清晰的思考来形成信念的，除非你是科学家或从事类似的工作。
So we don't reach our beliefs by clear thinking, unless you're a scientist or doing something like that.
但即便如此，这可能也只限于非常狭窄的领域。
But even then, it's probably a very narrow
这确实非常狭窄，神经科学家身上也有相当多的情绪会影响清晰思考。
That's very narrow and there is a fair amount of emotion in neuroscientists as well that gets in the way of clear thinking.
对先前观点的执着，以及被人认为比你聪明时感到被冒犯。
Commitments to your previous views, being insulted that somebody thinks he's smarter than you are.
我的意思是，即使你是科学家，也有很多事情会妨碍清晰思考。
I mean, lots of things get in the way even when you're a scientist.
所以我会说，人们实际的清晰思考比他们自己以为的要少。
So I'd say there is less clear thinking than people like to think.
在信念形成阶段，我们能做些什么吗？
Is there anything that we can do at the belief formation stage?
比如，当你说到我们读报纸时，我们读到的是那些符合我们世界观的建构内容，因此我们接受了这些观点，却忘记了我们并没有通过自己的经验或反思来学习这些内容。
Like, it sounds almost as though when you say that we're reading a newspaper, we read this constructed and fits with our view of the world, therefore, we adopt that opinion, and we forget the context that we didn't learn it through our own experience or reflection.
我们是从别人那里学到的，所以并不清楚这些观点在什么情况下有效或无效，却只是把它当作自己的观点提出来。
We learned it sort of from somebody else, so we don't know when it's sort of likely to work or not work, but we just proffer that as our opinion.
有办法吗？
Is there?
我对气候变化的信念就是这样，你知道的。
That's how I believe in climate change, you know.
我相信那些告诉我气候变化存在的人。
I believe in the people who tell me there is climate change.
而不相信气候变化的人，则是相信其他人。
And the people who don't believe in climate change, they believe in other people.
但同样地，还有假新闻和其他各种东西，我们对此会有同样的反应。
But similarly, there's like fake news and all this other stuff that You we would have the same reaction
你知道，但我更有可能相信我这边的假新闻，而不是另一边的假新闻。
know, but I'm much more likely to believe fake news on my side than the fake news on the other side.
我的意思是，最近十到十五年，美国的公共讨论确实严重退化了。
I mean, it's true that there is a huge degradation in public discourse in the recent ten, fifteen years in The United States.
我的意思是，过去人们普遍认为事实很重要。
I mean, there used to be an idea that facts matter.
你认为为什么会发生这种情况？
What would be your hypothesis as to why that is playing out?
我不想涉及政治，所以不谈政治，但为什么会这样？
Without getting into politics because I don't want to talk politics, but why is that?
嗯，如果不谈政治，这个问题很难回答，因为总体的政治极化产生了巨大影响，而且人们可以选择信息来源。
Well, I mean, it's hard to answer that question without politics because the general political polarization has had a very big effect and the fact that people can choose the sources of information.
我们稍微换个话题，谈谈直觉吧。
Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about intuition.
我认为，你所做的一些研究中最让我印象深刻的是，我们在什么情况下会信任直觉，什么情况下不会。
I think one of the the things that strikes me the most about some of the work that you've done is the cases where we're likely to trust our intuition and when we're not.
所以，如果我理解得不对，请纠正我。
And so if I'm correct me if I'm I'm getting this wrong.
也就是说，这类似于一个稳定的环境、反复的尝试和快速的反馈。
So it's sort of like a stable environment, repeated attempts, and rapid feedback.
我注意到，组织中的大多数决策并不符合这种环境，但我们却常常依赖判断或经验来做这些决策。
It strikes me that most decisions made in organizations do not fit that environment, and yet we're making a lot of these decisions on judgment or experience.
在这样的背景下，我们有哪些方法可以做出更好的决策呢？
What are the ways that we can sort of make better decisions with that in the context?
首先，我认为你不应该期望太高。
Well, in the first place, I think, you know, shouldn't expect too much.
回到低期望的问题上。
Back to low expectations.
是的。
Yeah.
对提升决策质量的期望应该放低。
Should have low expectations about improving decisions.
我的意思是，有一个基本准则就是放慢速度，尤其是当你有强烈直觉的时候，更要放慢。
I mean, there is, you know, one basic rule is slow down, especially if you if you have that immediate conviction, slow down.
有一些流程，你知道的，有一些方法可以帮助我们做出更好的决策和判断，我们可以聊聊这些。
There are procedures, you know, there are ways of reaching better decisions, reaching better judgments and we can talk about them.
我非常乐意。
I would love to.
如果你真的想提高决策质量，尽可能使用算法。
If you really want to improve the quality of decision making, use algorithms, wherever you can.
如果你能用规则和算法取代判断，它们的表现会更好。
If you can replace judgments by rules and algorithms, they'll do better.
信任算法来做决策会带来很大的社会成本，但这些决策往往更优。
There are big social costs to trusting, allowing algorithm to make decisions, but the decisions are likely to be better.
所以，这是一点。
So that's one thing.
如果你不能使用算法，那就让自己慢下来。
If you can't use algorithms, then you slow yourself down.
对于某些类型的问题，你可以做一些事情，而问题也有不同的类型。
And then there are things that you can do for certain types of problems, and there are different types of problems.
比如预测类问题就是其中一类。
So one class of problems like forecasting problems.
我的朋友菲尔·泰特洛克写过一本关于超级预测者的书，他研究了那些擅长预测未来的人，找出他们做得好的原因。
My friend Phil Tetlock has that book on super forecasters, where he identifies with people who are good at forecasting the future, what they do that makes them good.
他尝试训练人们，并且能够提升他们的能力。
And he tries to train people and he can improve people.
所以这是一种类型的问题。
So that's one class of problem.
我特别感兴趣的是另一种类型的问题——判断类问题，本质上是你在权衡选项或评估一种情境，并试图给它打分。
I'm interested specifically in another kind of problem, judgment problems, where basically you're considering options or you're evaluating a situation and you're trying to give it a score.
我认为，关于如何做这件事，是有建议的。
There is advice, I think, on how to do it.
对我来说，这要追溯到我22岁时在以色列军队中的一段经历。
For me, it goes back to something I did in the Israeli Army when I was like 22 years old.
那是很久以前的事了，大约六十三年前。
So that's a long time ago, like sixty three years ago.
我在以色列军队中担任心理学家，被分配去建立一套军队面试系统。
I was a psychologist in the Israeli Army And I was assigned the job of setting up an interviewing system for the army.
这听起来很荒谬，但你知道，当时是以色列建国初期，到处都在临时应对。
It's ridiculous, but, you know, this was the beginning of the state of Israel, so people were improvising all over the place.
我当时只有学士学位，但我想我是军队里受过最好训练的心理学家。
I had a BA and I was I think I was the best trained psychologist in the army.
我的上司是一位化学家。
My boss was a chemist.
非常出色。
Brilliant.
但无论如何，当时的现有系统是让面试官通过面谈，试图形成对新兵作为战斗士兵表现的直觉性整体印象，而这正是面谈的目标。
But anyway, and the existing system was one where people would interview and try to form an intuitive global image of how well that recruit would do as a combat soldier, which was the objective of the object of the interview.
因为我读过一本关于保罗·米勒的书，所以我采取了不同的方法。
And because I had read a book about Paul Meale, I took a different tack.
我的不同做法是，我列出了六个我自行设定的特质，让面试官针对每一项特质提问、独立评估、打分并记录下来，然后再进入下一个特质。
And the different tack was I identified six traits that I sort of made up and I had them ask questions and evaluate each of these traits independently and score it and write down the score then go on to the next trait.
他们必须为全部六个特质完成这个过程。
And they had to do it for all six traits.
这就是我要求他们做的全部内容。
That's all I asked them to do.
而那些面试官，年龄比我大约小一岁，都是新兵，但非常非常聪明，经过筛选具备出色的能力，他们对我非常愤怒。
And the interviewers, who were about one year younger than I, all recruits but very, very smart, selected for being good at it, they were furious with me.
他们对我愤怒，是因为他们想运用自己的直觉。
And they were furious with me because they wanted to exercise their intuition.
我至今还记得其中一人说：‘你把我们变成了机器人。’
And I still remember that one of them said, You're turning us into robots.
于是我和他们达成了妥协。
So I compromised with them.
我说：好吧，你们就按我的方式来做。
And I said, Okay, you do it my way.
我告诉他们：你们要追求的是可靠性，而不是有效性，懂吗？
And I told them, You try to be reliable, not valid, you know.
我负责有效性，你们负责可靠性——这听起来挺自大的，但我就这么表达的。
I'm in charge of validity, you be reliable, which was pretty arrogant, but that's how I presented it.
但做完之后，闭上眼睛，直接写下一个数字，判断这个人会成为一个怎样的士兵。
But then when you're done, close your eyes and just put down a number of how good a soldier is that guy going to be.
当我们验证面试结果时，发现相比之前有了显著提升。
And when we validated the results of the interview, it was a big improvement on what had gone on before.
但另一个意外发现是，最终的直觉判断确实有帮助，它的效果和六个特质的平均分一样好，但并不相同。
But the other surprise was that the final intuitive judgment added it was good, it was as good as the average of the six traits and not the same.
它提供了额外的信息。
It added information.
所以我们最终得到的分数，一半来自具体的评分，另一半来自直觉。
So actually we ended up with a score that was half was determined by the specific ratings and the intuition got half the way.
顺便说一下，这种方法在以色列军队中沿用了五十多年。
And that, by the way, stayed in the Israeli Army for well over fifty years.
我不知道现在是否还在使用，但我认为可能某种版本仍然在强制推行。
I don't know whether it's I think it probably some version of it was still being forced.
但大约十五年前，我回到我以前的基地，研究单位的指挥官告诉我他们是如何进行面试的。
But around fifteen years ago, I visited my old base and the commanding officer of the research unit was telling me how they ran the interview.
然后她说，接着我们会告诉他们：闭上眼睛。
And then she said, and then we tell them, close your eyes.
所以这种方法一直沿用了五十年。
So that had stayed for fifty years.
现在，‘闭上眼睛’这个想法以及整个理念，成了我正在写的书的基础。
Now, the close your eyes and that whole idea is now the basis of the book that I'm writing.
所以实际上，我也有同样的想法：当你做决定时，应该把选项当作候选人来看待。
So actually I have the same idea really, that when you are making decisions, you should think of options as if they were candidates.
因此，你应该将其分解为多个维度，分别评估每个维度，然后综合查看整体情况。
So you should break it up into dimensions, evaluate each dimension separately, then look at the profile.
关键是推迟你的直觉。
And the key is delay your intuition.
不要急于形成直觉，而这正是我们通常的做法。
Don't try to form an intuition quickly, which is what we normally do.
专注于各个独立的点。
Focus on the separate points.
当你掌握了整个轮廓后，再形成直觉，那样会更好。
And then when you have the whole profile, then you can have an intuition and it's going to be better.
因为人们太快形成直觉，而快速直觉往往并不好。
Because people form intuitions too quickly and the rapid intuitions are not particularly good.
所以，如果你在获得更多信息后再形成直觉，结果会更好。
So if you delay intuition until you have more information, it's going to be better.
我很想知道我们该如何推迟直觉。
I'm curious how we delay intuition.
通过专注于各个独立的问题来推迟直觉。
You delay intuition by focusing on the separate problems.
所以我们建议，如果你有一个董事会在做投资决策，我们会告诉他们按照这种方式来做。
So our advice is that if you have, you know, a board of directors making decisions about an investment, we tell them you do it that way.
把各个维度分开，认真独立地思考每一个维度。
Take the separate dimensions and really think about each dimension separately and independently.
而且，如果你是主席，不要允许人们提前给出最终判断。
And don't allow, you know, if you're the chair, don't allow people to give their final judgment.
所以，等我们把所有内容都讨论完再说。
So wait until we cover the whole thing.
也就是说，如果你发现了一个否决因素，那就直接终止。
Mean, if you find a deal breaker, then you stop.
但如果你还没发现否决因素，就等到最后，看看整体情况，那时你的决策几乎肯定会更好。
But if you haven't found a deal breaker, wait to the end and look at the profile and then your decision is almost certainly going to be better.
这是否包括对问题的不同方面赋予不同的权重？
Does that include weighting the different aspects of the problem differently?
你会提前强调这一点吗？
Do you highlight that in advance?
是的，这能让你更清楚地看到各种权衡。
Yeah, mean it makes you see the trade offs more clearly.
否则，当我们不遵守这种纪律时，人们会形成某种印象。
Otherwise, when we don't follow that discipline, there is a way in which people form impressions.
你很快就会形成一个印象，然后花大部分时间去证实它，而不是收集证据。
Very quickly you form an impression and then you spend most of your time confirming it instead of collecting evidence.
所以，如果你的印象恰好是错误的，你会去证实它，而不会给自己纠正的机会。
And so if accidentally your impression was in the wrong direction, you are going to confirm it and you don't give yourself a chance to correct it.
独立是关键，因为如果不采取这些预防措施，就相当于找了一群目击犯罪的证人，却允许他们互相交谈。
Independence is the key because otherwise when you don't take those precautions, it's like having a bunch of witnesses to some crime and allowing those witnesses to talk to each other.
如果你追求的是真相，那么让他们严格分开并分别收集他们的说法，会比让他们互相交流更有价值。
They're going to be less valuable if you're interested in the truth than keeping them rigidly separate and collecting what they have to say.
来自第31期，以下是芭芭拉·奥克利。
From episode number 31, here's Barbara Oakley.
我想回到你之前提到的两种思维模式，即专注模式和发散模式。
I wanna go back to something you said earlier about the two modes of thinking, so focused and diffused.
这和拖延有什么关系？
And how does that relate to procrastination?
哦。
Oh.
我认为这相关，因为它是学习的另一个关键要素。
I think it relates in that it is it is the other main key of learning.
换句话说，了解专注模式和发散模式能帮助你避免在学习时觉得自己很笨。
And in other words, learning about focused and diffused helps inoculate you against thinking you're stupid when you're trying to learn.
但学习中另一个重大问题在于人们会拖延，那么该如何应对呢？
But the other major, major issue in learning relates to the fact that people procrastinate And how do deal with that?
因为很多时候，人们容易说‘伟大的学习来自刻意练习’之类的，但他们忘了，你得先坐到桌前，得先克服拖延，才能开始使用刻意练习。
Because I think a lot of times it's it's easy to say great learning takes place when you use deliberate practice and so forth, but they people forget about the fact that, well, you gotta get to the table, you gotta not procrastinate before you even, you know, start using deliberate practice.
所以，当你一想到自己不想做或不喜欢的事情时，大脑的岛叶皮层就会被激活，产生疼痛感。
So in any case, what happens when you even just think about something you don't want to do, or don't like, it activates a portion of the brain in the insular cortex that experiences pain.
这就像是当你不想做某件事时，胃里那种不舒服的感觉。
So it's kind of like that same feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you don't really want to do something.
对。
Right.
你知道吗，大脑会怎么做呢？
You know, so what does the brain do?
大脑会说：嘿，猜猜怎么着？
The brain says, Oh, hey, guess what?
我一想到这个就不喜欢，让我感到不舒服，所以我还是想点别的吧。
I didn't like this when I thought about this, it made me feel uncomfortable, so I'll think about something else.
于是它就溜去想Facebook，或者别的任何事情。
And so off it skitters to, think about Facebook or something or anything.
我的意思是，打扫房间可能比你正在想的那些不愉快的任务更让人愉快。
I mean, cleaning your room can be more pleasant than whatever unpleasant task you're you're thinking about.
所以，克服这种情况最好的办法，正如成千上万学习如何学习的人告诉我们的，就是番茄工作法。
So the best trick, you know, to overcome this, as literally thousands and thousands of people from learning how to learn have told us, is the Pomodoro Technique.
这个方法简直太棒了。
So this technique is just it's fantastic.
它是由一位意大利人弗朗切斯科·西里洛发明的，你只需要关闭所有干扰，比如手机上烦人的通知，或者电脑屏幕上弹出的任何东西。
It was invented by an Italian, Francesco Sidiolo, and all you have to do is just turn off all distractions, so nothing bugging you on the phone or whatever, nothing popping up on your computer screen.
在关闭这些干扰后，你只需要设置一个25分钟的计时器，然后专心工作25分钟。
And instead, what you do is you just, after turning off these distractions, set a timer for twenty five minutes and then focus for twenty five minutes.
你的思绪可能会飘走，因为这很自然，但只需把它拉回来就行。
And, your mind may drift off it because that's very natural, but just bring it back.
整个理念就是在这25分钟内尽可能专注地投入工作。
And you're The whole idea is you're focusing as intently as you can for those twenty five minutes.
当你完成时，这也是整个番茄工作法最重要的部分——你要奖励自己。
And when you're done, you and this is the most important part of the whole Pomodoro Technique you reward yourself.
所以，听一首你喜欢的音乐，去刷刷Facebook，散散步，跳跳舞，任何让你轻松转移注意力的事情都可以。这种专注工作后立即奖励自己的方式，几乎能训练你的大脑更适应专注状态，并享受它，同时让结束时大脑在发散模式下进行的整合过程自然发生，这确实是一个非常有效的方法。
So listen to a piece of music you like, go on to Facebook, you know, go walk around, go dance around, anything to comfortably distract yourself from what you've been doing, and that can this whole business of, focus intently and reward yourself at the end, that almost trains your brain to, to be more comfortable in the focus mode and to, and to enjoy it, and then to integrate that, the consolidation that's happening in the diffuse mode at the end of your your little session there, and it it is really a powerful technique.
有没有哪些活动比其他活动更能促进发散模式的恢复？比如去健身房，还是只要能让你转移注意力，所有活动都差不多？
Are there some activities that are better than other for encouraging that diffuse mode kind of reconciliation, like going to the gym or are they all very similar as long as they take your mind off?
我觉得，相比其他方式，活动性的休息更好。比如说，你刚写完一份报告，休息时就不该去刷Twitter或Facebook，继续动脑，因为这样你仍在使用相同的脑区，没有给它们真正的放松机会。
Well, I always think that something active is better than anything else in that, what you want to do Let's say you've been writing a report and then when you're taking your break, you don't want to go on to Twitter or Facebook and continue writing because you're using sort of the same areas of the brain and it's not giving that area a little bit of a rest.
所以，最好的通用休息方式就是适当活动一下，做一些体力运动。
So the, the best all purpose break thing is to move around to some extent, do something that's physical.
至于锻炼本身，天啊，这是你能为学习做的最好的事情之一。
And we, of course, as far as exercise itself goes, oh my gosh, that's one of the best things you can do for learning.
锻炼有助于在你的大脑中产生脑源性神经营养因子，这种物质就像肥料一样，能促进树突棘的生长。
What exercise does is it helps produce brain derived neurotropic factor in your, you know, in your brain, and this is kind of like a fertilizer that helps dendritic spines grow.
换句话说，它有助于形成新的连接。
In other words, it helps make new connections.
你可以亲眼看到这一点。
And you can see it.
我的意思是，有一些很棒的神经科学论文，比如发表在《自然·神经科学》上的，显示当大脑暴露在BDNF中时，那些微小的树突棘会立刻冒出来。
I mean, there's some great neuroscience papers, like a Nature Neuroscience, that show that little dendritic spines just popping right out when they've got BDNF, you know, they're exposed to that.
因此，锻炼正是促使这一切发生的因素，它是一种绝佳的学习辅助工具，就像一种帮助你更好地学习的药物。
And so exercise is what kind of brings this all out for you and it is a fantastic learning, you know, it's like a medication to help you learn better.
我的搭档讲师特里·索诺夫斯基，我确信他做过一些最早的研究，证明锻炼是学习中非常有效的工具，部分原因在于它能促进神经发生。
My co instructor, Terry Sonowski, I'm convinced that he did some of the earliest studies, that showed that exercise is a really helpful tool, in learning, and because it in part because it promotes neurogenesis.
你会产生新的神经元，它们帮助你建立新的模式，但这个人呢，
You get new neurons and they help you build new patterns, but the guy is,
他
he's
已经快70岁了，但现在比以往任何时候都更有活力，我坚信其中一部分原因是他真正把锻炼作为工作日的重要组成部分。
approaching, you know, 70 and he's going stronger now than he ever was before, And I'm convinced part of it is just he really makes exercise an important part of his working day.
而且，每隔一天左右，他都会去海滩跑步。
And, you know, every other day or so he's down on the beach going for a run.
我认为人们有时并没有意识到应该把锻炼融入生活，因为他们已经拼尽全力工作了，却没意识到，哪怕只是增加一点点锻炼，也能帮助他们更短的时间内学会东西，并让知识在大脑中记得更牢。
And I think that people don't quite, sometimes don't take the wherewithal to add exercise in, you know, because they're working as hard as they can and they don't realize that adding at least a little bit of exercise can actually help them to learn in shorter periods of time and help it kind of stick in their brain better.
我们是否应该在专注模式和发散模式之间保持某种理想的时间比例？
Is there kind of like an ideal frequency or ratio between how much time we should be spending in focused versus diffuse mode?
据我所知，并没有这样的标准。
Not that I'm aware of.
我只知道一点，目前有一些令人担忧的证据，但还需要更多研究来进一步验证：你专注的时间越长，比如你进行专注型的真言冥想，并且把它和大量其他专注性工作结合起来，真言冥想确实能进一步提升你的专注能力。
I think the one thing to be that I'm just aware of is I think there's a little bit of concerning evidence and it still has to be borne out with even further research and so forth, that the more time you spend focusing, as for example, if you are, if you do focused mantra type meditation, and let's say you add that in to a lot of other focused work you're doing and so forth, The mantra meditation can be excellent in helping to even further build your focusing ability.
但有一些证据表明，与此同时，它也在抑制默认模式的活动。
But there's some evidence that at the same time, it's also suppressing that default mode activity.
所以你可能专注于某事并变得更能集中注意力，但这种提升可能是以牺牲另一个完全不同的网络为代价的，而这个网络负责产生天马行空、随机且疯狂的联想，这正是创造力的源泉。
So it may be that you're focusing great, you can get even better at focusing, but you may be doing it at a trade off cost as far as that other very different network which makes wild and random and totally crazy connections, which is what fuels your creativity.
因此，我不禁想，每天至少留出一些时间让大脑自由发散，这很重要。
So I can't help but wonder that I think it's important to spend at least some part of your day letting your brain just go random.
这就是为什么我认为散步非常好，尤其是当你在散步时让大脑随意游走，偶尔允许自己感到无聊，这很有帮助，因为如果你每一秒都保持高度专注，我有点担心这对你的创造性思维并不健康。
And that's why I think going for a walk is excellent, especially if you're just kinda letting your brain go while you're doing it, almost letting yourself be bored for some periods of the day, is helpful because if you focus every single second that you have available, I'm just a little concerned that that that's that's not healthy for, for your creative thinking.
我非常认同这一点，因为我确实认为我们需要这样的休息时间，不可能一直紧绷着。
I like that a lot because I I do think we need this sort of downtime and we can't always be on.
我想再回过头来谈谈学习，你能给我讲讲记忆在学习中扮演的角色吗？
I wanna come back to a little bit more about learning, which is can you explain to me kind of the the role that memory plays as it relates to learning?
嗯，
Well,
记忆是学习的核心，我们都知道这一点，但历史上我们一直在走极端，这种现象在各种领域都能看到。
memory is integral to learning, and we all know that, but we've kind of gone off, I mean, there's this seesaw through history, I mean, we see this, in all sorts of ways through history.
某个想法一旦流行起来，每个人都会为之疯狂，而且会过度追捧，最终变得过分极端。
Some some idea will take hold and then everybody will go nuts for this idea and they go way overboard and then it goes way overboard.
就像弗洛伊德心理学或精神分析一样，弗洛伊德学派确实有一些合理之处，但后来一切都变成了弗洛伊德式的，你根本无法摆脱这种框架。
And like Freudian psychology, or psychiatry, there can think there were some points to Freudian psychiatry, but everything got Freudian, and then you couldn't, like, break out of that.
然后又转向了环境决定论，结果任何反对环境决定论观点的研究都再也无法发表，诸如此类。
And then it went to scenerianism, and then you couldn't publish anything that was against scenerian approaches and so forth.
同样在教育领域，我们走向了另一个极端，认为死记硬背是邪恶的。
And similarly in education, we've gone on to this thing where memorization is evil.
不对。
No.
绝对不允许人们记忆任何东西，因为你只想让他们理解。
Never allow people to memorize things because you just want them to understand it.
这简直已经疯狂到极点了。
And I mean, it's gone just crazy.
事实上，我甚至有个学生，我记得他曾来找我，他考试没及格，说：‘我不明白我怎么会考这么差。’
And the fact of the I even had a student, I remember I had a student come up to me and he'd flunked this test and he's like, Oh, you know, I just don't understand how I could have flunked this test.
你上课说的时候我就明白了。
I understood it when you said it in class.
他多年来一直听说，只要理解就够了。
And he'd heard for so many years that all he needed to do was understand something and that was it.
这就够了。
That's enough.
这被当成金科玉律，但实际上远远不够。
That's like the golden thing and it's not enough.
根本不够。
It's not enough at all.
有时候我会对人们说，你听听诗人怎么说：背下这首诗，你会更深刻地理解它。
Sometimes I will say to people, like you'll hear poets say, Memorize the poem and you will understand it more deeply.
为什么我们要让诗人独享这种乐趣呢？
It's Why should we let the poets have all the fun?
我的意思是，如果你背下了一个公式，你也会更深刻地理解它。
I mean, if you memorize an equation, you will also understand it more deeply.
所以，当然，我认为有些记忆方式只是机械地把东西塞进脑子里，而你做这件事的时候根本没在思考。
So, sure, I think there's ways you can memorize where it's just sort of your rote putting something in your mind and you're not thinking about it while you're doing it.
但事实上，如果你记忆方程式，只要你反复主动从脑海中提取解法，你就算是记住了，对吧？但这是一种健康的记忆方式，能帮助你真正掌握这些内容。
But actually, if you memorize equations, if you actively pull out a solution from your mind enough times, it's it's you've memorized it, right, but it's really a healthy form of memorization that allows you to master the material.
来自第四十七集和第四十八集，以下是亚当·罗宾逊。
From episode number forty seven and forty eight, here's Adam Robinson.
我想再回到你之前提到的关于思考以及我们如何学会更好思考的问题。
I wanna come back to something you said about thinking and how we learn to think better.
我们该如何学会更好地思考？
How do we learn to think better?
这让我想起物理学家尼尔斯·玻尔说过的一句精彩的话，他曾批评一位同事，说：不。
You know, that reminds me of a great quote by the physicist, Niels Bohr, who chastised one of his colleagues, and he said, no.
不。
No.
你根本没在思考。
You're not thinking.
你只是在运用逻辑，而逻辑是有局限的。
You're just being logical, and there are limits to logic.
我认为，思考的本质在于不断提出问题，一个问题会引出一个答案，而这个答案又会引发另一个问题。
And I think that the thing about thinking is it's a relentless asking of questions that one question will suggest will offer an answer which will suggest another question.
因此，思考的一部分——至少是逻辑思考——就是不断提出问题。
And so part of thinking, at least logical thinking, is the relentless asking of questions.
我最伟大的洞见——尽管微不足道——总是突然、毫无预兆地出现。
My greatest insights, such as they are, the meager insights I've had in the world, always come to me spontaneously out of the blue.
我知道你本想问我关于普林斯顿评论、其他事情，以及我在投资方面的经验和洞见，但这些全都是突然冒出来的。
And I know you wanted to ask me about The Princeton Review and other things and my work in investing and my insights, and they all came out of the blue.
它们并不是一系列逻辑推导的结果，因此得出这个结论。
They weren't a logical chain of deductions, and therefore this is the answer.
答案会突然出现在我脑海中，然后我才反过来思考：哪些步骤本应引导我到达这里，但我事先从来不知道。
The answer pops into my head, and then I work backwards to what steps should have gotten me there, but I never know beforehand, really.
所以，我认为思考的一部分，就是倾听你的潜意识。
So thinking, I think part of it is listening to your unconscious.
现代思维和逻辑源于古希腊人，也许甚至更早一两个文明，但相对而言只是最近几千年的事，而逻辑所能引导我们的程度是有限的。
Modern thought, logic, is the creation of the ancient Greeks, perhaps a civilization or two earlier than that, but relatively recent, a few millennia of modern history, and logic only takes us so far.
散文家G.K.切斯特顿曾说过，你只有在没有依靠逻辑的情况下先发现了真理，才能通过逻辑发现它，我认为这是对的。
The the essayist GK Chesterton once said, you can discover truth by logic only if you've discovered it first without it, I think that's true.
伟大的真理无法通过逻辑获得。
The great truths can't be reached by logic.
我可以用逻辑来证明这一点。
I can prove that logically.
如果你仔细想想，地球上曾有数十亿人，他们一生中投入大量时间用逻辑——我现在用引号强调——和常识来思考世界。
If you think about it, we've had many billions of people on this planet who've devoted a lot of their lives to thinking about the world using logic, and I'm using air quotes now, common sense.
但他们仍未解答所有问题。
And yet they haven't answered all the questions.
所以，如果逻辑真能让我们这些人类获得所追求的答案——那些真正的问题、真正的洞见、大写的真理——那么逻辑早在几个世纪前就该把它们交给我们了。
So if logic could get us to the the answers we seek as as beings, as human beings, to the real questions, the real insights, the great truths with a capital t, then logic would have given them to us centuries ago.
我们早就该变成一本小册子了。
We'd have all be a little book, like a booklet.
在这儿。
Here.
所有答案都在这。
Here are all the answers.
但不是。
But no.
伟大的洞见不知从何而来，悄然浮现于我们的潜意识中。
And the the great insights come from our unconscious somehow, unbidden.
它们就是突然出现的。
They just out of the blue.
所以，是的，我不认为任何伟大的洞见——比如，史蒂夫·乔布斯四十年前会一边走一边想：我该怎么改变世界？
And so, yeah, I don't think any of the great I don't think, for example, Steven Jobs was walking around, what, forty years ago thinking, how can I change the world?
对吧？
Right?
他和沃兹尼亚克当时只是摆弄那些小小的雅达利迷你电脑之类的东西。
He and Wozniak had those little Atari mini computers or something.
我想他们用的不是Atari，但差不多是那种东西，对吧？
I think they were it wasn't Atari, but it was something like that, right?
你看着那些小巧的东西，心想天啊，这将会改变世界。
You look packered little things and they said, my gosh, this is going to change the world.
对吧？
Right?
自制套件。
Homebrew kits.
对，那些自制套件。
Right, those homebrew kits.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
对，你可以自己动手制作。
Right, that you could just make on your own.
注意，史蒂夫·乔布斯在第一次看到那个套件时，根本不是在想‘我怎么才能改变世界’？
Notice that Steven Jobs didn't I don't even think whenever he first saw that kit, was asking himself, How can I change the world?
他看到了，然后突然意识到：天啊，这将会彻底改变一切。
He saw it, then he realized, Oh my gosh, this is just going to change everything.
我认为伟大的洞见就是这样产生的。
I think that the great insights happen like that.
它们并非来自逻辑思维。
They come not from logical thought.
当然，你最终必须运用逻辑，但我认为有一件事应该被教授——尤其是在学校里，只要可能的话，就是让学生接触自己的潜意识，并倾听那个声音。
Now, of course, you're going have to apply logic at a certain point, but I think one thing that that should be taught is, certainly in schools to the extent that it can be, is allowing students to get in touch with their unconscious and to listen to that voice.
我们如何学会这样做？
How do
我们该如何做到这一点？
we learn to do that?
那意味着什么？
What what does that mean?
天啊。
Gee.
你知道，这就像问鲍勃·鲍曼——迈克尔·菲尔普斯的教练——你怎么能让迈克尔伸展他的手臂呢？
You know, it's a bit like asking Bob Bowman, is Michael Phelps' coach, how do you get, you know, Michael to extend his arm reach?
他会说：嗯，我不知道。
And he's going go, well, I don't know.
这纯粹是灵光一现。
It's just the inspiration of the moment.
所以我不确定能否给出一个简单的规则，教别人如何与潜意识建立联系；我认为这首先需要给自己一些时间。
So I'm not sure that I can offer an easy rule for how do I how do how would I teach someone to get in touch with his unconscious, I think it would start with just allowing themselves some time.
这里有一个线索，能告诉你你已经触及了真理——大写的T，你的潜意识正在发声：答案会让你感到惊讶。
Here's here's a clue that you've tapped into truth with a capital t and that your unconscious is speaking is that the answer will surprise you.
你会被它吓一跳。
You'll be startled by it.
就像我在舞台上说出那些话时一样震惊，那完全是我从未想过的内容。
In the same way that I was startled by what I said up on stage, that was something I had never thought about.
我一辈子都是个内向的人。
I'd been an introvert my entire life.
而我此刻却站在台上谈论外向性的种种乐趣。
And so here I was up on stage talking about the delights of extroversion.
当我这么说的时候，我自己也感到惊讶。
And and as I was saying it, it surprised me.
我根本不知道这句话是从哪儿冒出来的。
I had no idea where that came from.
所以是的。
So yeah.
跟我聊聊那些不合理或令人惊讶的事物的力量。
Talk to
谈谈那些不合常理或令人惊讶的事物的力量。
me about the power of things that don't make sense or surprise us.
那意味着什么？
What does that mean?
这意味着我们对世界的预期不同或者有偏差？
It means our our expectation of the world is different or off?
是的。
Yes.
嗯，你知道，夏洛克·福尔摩斯曾经说过，在掌握所有事实之前就进行理论推测是个严重的错误。
Well, it you know, Sherlock Holmes once said, it's a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the facts.
但我觉得，恕我直言，夏洛克，这个建议很荒谬。
And I think it's that's silly advice with respect, Sherlock.
我们在掌握所有事实之前，根本无法不进行推测。
We we can't help but theorize beforehand before we have all the facts.
究竟什么才算‘所有事实’，我这里打个引号，其实并不清楚。
It's not clear what all the facts, I'm using air quotes, constitutes.
但更重要的是，先对世界形成预期，然后去寻找异常之处。
But it's more important to have expectations about the world and then look for anomalies.
惊喜总是告诉你的，谢恩，就是这一点。
Surprise is always what surprise is telling you, Shane, is this.
你对世界的认知是错误的，这太棒了。
Your model of the world is incorrect, which is fantastic.
这是一个学习的机会。
It's a learning opportunity.
这就是惊喜的含义。
That's what surprise is.
所以当人们谈论惊喜时，对我而言，惊喜是一种投资算法。
And so I know when people talk about surprise, surprise is an investing algorithm for me.
当事情说不通，当人们说某些事情说不通时，这仅仅告诉我他们对世界的思考方式是错误的。
When things don't make sense, when people say things don't make sense, all that tells me is they're not thinking about the world correctly.
所以当有人举例说，为什么美国十年期国债收益率仍低于3%简直说不通。
So when someone says, for example, it makes no sense why ten year yields US ten year yields remain below 3%.
毕竟，美联储一直在谈论经济表现有多好。
After all, the Fed's talking about how well the economy is doing.
而以历史标准来看，3%已经相当低了。
And by historical standards, 3% is pretty darn low.
所以我搞不懂。
So I don't understand.
为什么十年期收益率没有上涨，这毫无道理。
It makes no sense why ten year yields aren't going higher.
当有人这么说时，我就知道十年期收益率会在相当长一段时间内保持在3%以下，因为这个人的世界观与他所看到的现象相矛盾。
And when someone says that, I know that ten year yields are gonna stay below 3% for quite a while because that person's model of the world is is in conflict with what that person is seeing.
这个人处于否认状态。
That person is in denial.
所以当有人抱怨黄金价格为何持续上涨，或特斯拉股票为何不下跌时，顺便说一句，我这不是在提供投资建议。
So when someone says it makes no sense why gold keeps going higher or Tesla stock doesn't sell off or by the way, I'm not offering investment advice.
但当人们说出这些话时，我知道他们正经历确认偏误，世界正与
But when people say those things, I know that they're experiencing confirmation bias, that the world is conflicting with
他们所认为的
What they think
他们认为应该发生的事情相冲突。
what they think should happen.
实际上，当有人说‘这毫无道理’时，他们真正想表达的是：我有十几个逻辑上的理由说明黄金应该上涨，但它却持续下跌。
And really, when someone says, it makes no sense that, really what they're saying is this, I have a dozen logical reasons why gold should be going higher, but it keeps going lower.
因此，这毫无道理。
Therefore, that makes no sense.
但真正毫无道理的是他们对世界的认知模型。
But really what makes no sense is their model of the world.
对吧？
Right?
所以，当我遇到这种情况时，我知道一定还有其他非常强大的原因，导致黄金持续下跌，压倒了所有那些所谓的逻辑理由——我用引号是因为这些理由只是他们论证黄金应该上涨的论点。
So I know when that happens that there's some other very powerful reason why gold keeps going lower that trumps all all the logical reasons, I'm using air quotes, the logical reasons, the case as it were, their argument for why it should be going higher.
因此，一旦我听到这种说法，无论它是来自个人，还是来自彭博或CNBC的评论员，我都知道市场上还有很多交易员和投资者仍然站在错误的一边，难以置信地盯着眼前发生的事情。
So I know once I hear that, whether it's from an individual or some talking head on Bloomberg or CNBC, that there are a lot of traders out there, investors, who are still on the wrong side of the trade, staring in disbelief about what is going on right in front of their eyes.
这不仅在投资领域如此。
And that's true not just in the investing sphere.
在政治领域也是如此。
It's true in the political sphere.
在任何领域都是如此。
It's true in any sphere.
如果你想找到黄金，那就去那些看似不合理的地方。
If you wanna find gold, it's where things don't make sense.
我曾经和蒂姆就那些看似不合理的事情进行了长时间的讨论。
I I spoke at length with Tim about that, things that don't make sense.
但这是一种发现机会的算法。
But that's that's an algorithm for finding opportunities.
你知道，问题是我们从哪里获得好点子？
You know, the question is where do we get our good ideas?
获得好点子的一种方式，就是去别人忽视的地方寻找。
And one way to get good ideas is to look where no one looks.
我告诉你一个没人关注的地方——那些被他们 dismiss 的、看似不合理的事情。
And I'll tell you one place that no one looks were things that don't make sense because they dismiss them.
他们会说：‘这根本说不通’，然后摇摇头，继续往前走。
They go, well, that doesn't make any sense, and they shake their head and they move on.
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而不是直接深入
Instead of diving in
而是去探索。
and exploring.
说，是的。
Going, yeah.
让我们弄清楚为什么会这样。
Let's find out why that's true.
我的意思是，你几乎可以把它整理成一个算法。
I mean, you could almost lay it out as a as an algorithm.
我并不是在提供投资建议，说当有人认为某物没有道理且持续下跌时，就进场交易。
I'm not offering investment advice that when somebody says it doesn't make any sense that x keeps going lower, get in the trade.
它还有很大的下跌空间。
It's got a lot lower to go.
它可能会继续下跌。
It's probably gonna go lower.
它还会继续下跌。
It's gonna go lower.
是的。
Yeah.
肯定的。
For sure.
而且越多人这么说，他们就会说出类似这样的话。
And the more people that say that and they'll say things like this.
他们会说，或者说出这种说法的变体。
They'll say or they'll say permutations of that.
他们会说，毕竟，黄金还能跌多少呢？
They'll say, after all, how much lower can gold go?
对吧。
Right.
这些都是同一件事的不同说法。
They're all permutations of the same thing.
一个人否认现实，看不到眼前正在发生的事情。
A person in denial instead of seeing what's actually going on in front of them.
学习的过程是什么？
What is the process for learning?
有这样一个过程吗？
Is there a process?
嗯，我认为是有的。
Well, I think, yes, there is.
我们是如何学习的？
How do we learn?
对。
Right.
所以这真是一个
So that's such a
好
good
问题。
question.
我写过一本书，天啊，那是二十五年前的事了，叫《聪明学生知道什么》，我当时做了以下这些事。
I wrote a book, wow, twenty five years ago called What Smart Students Know, and I I did the following.
我意识到，顺便说一句，我不是在推销这本书。
I I realized that by the way, I'm not plugging the book.
我不是。
I am not.
绝对不是。
Absolutely not.
因为我现在可以总结出来，而且我希望有时间重写这本书。
Because I can summarize it now, and I wish I had the time to rewrite the book.
但我当时这么做的是：从来没有人教过我们如何学习，从来都没有。
But what I did was this: No one ever shows us how to learn, ever.
在学校里 nowhere，比如，想象一下，Shane，在法语课上，法语101，你的第一堂法语课，老师说：大家，这门课你们得学很多词汇，所以在教你们任何单词之前，我要先教你们一种记忆词汇的方法。
Nowhere in school For example, imagine, Shane, in French class, French 101, your first French class, your teacher said, Everyone, you're going to have to learn a lot of vocabulary in this class, so before I teach you any words, I'm going to teach you a way to remember vocabulary.
他们从不这么做。
They never do that.
他们只是说：‘这30个单词下周一要测验。’
They just go, We're going have a quiz on these 30 words on Monday.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
对。
Right.
但他们从不教我们如何真正地学习或记住东西。
But they don't teach us how to learn, actually, or remember things.
比如，他们从不告诉学生：如果你想记住任何东西，就把它变成一幅图、一个模式、一个故事或一段押韵。
Like, for example, they don't tell students, if you wanna remember anything, create a picture, a pattern, a story, or a rhyme out of it.
所有的记忆法都归结为图像、模式、故事或押韵，但他们从不告诉我们这一点。
All mnemonics come back to picture, pattern, story, or rhyme, but they don't tell us that.
所以我们很吃力。
So we struggle.
我们呢，你知道，会制作闪卡，但这完全没用，还一直重读笔记。
We, you know, we create flashcards, which are totally ineffective, and we keep rereading our notes.
所以我整理出了聪明学生都知道的内容。
So I wrote what smart students know.
我给学生看了一页地质学教材作为样本，然后接下来的200页，我展示了如何真正理解并学习那部分内容。
I gave students a page from a geology textbook, like a sample page, and I spent the next 200 pages showing how to actually, what it would mean to learn that.
就像我实际上
Like I actually
哦，这太棒了。
Oh, that's amazing.
真的很酷，对吧？
It's really cool, right?
我的意思是，你可能不会做到这种深度，但真正学习这一页信息意味着什么？
I mean, not that you would do that depth, but like what does it mean to learn that page of information?
这就是你实际上需要做的一切。
Like here's everything that you would actually need to do.
顺便说一下，如果我告诉你系鞋带的所有步骤，那会比直接展示给你看难得多。
By the way, if I told you all the steps it would take you to tie your shoe, it'd be much harder than just Show you.
看好了。
Watch
是的，对。
Yeah, yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以，学习任何东西的秘诀就是这一点：任何事情。
So the secret to learning anything is this: anything.
很高兴你问了这个问题：反复练习。
I'm glad you asked that question: rehearsing.
如果你想踢好足球，那就去踢足球。
If you want to get good at football, play football.
如果你想弹好吉他，那就去弹吉他。
If you want to get good at playing the guitar, play the guitar.
如果你想下棋下得好，你就得去下棋。
If you want to get good at chess, you've got to play chess.
现在你想把这分解成特定的技能，并逐一练习。
Now you want to break that down to certain skills and rehearse each one of them.
所以你看到人们打街头篮球或网球时，他们并没有把技能拆解开来，只是在那里打球，对吧？
So you see people playing pickup basketball or tennis, and they haven't broken it down to skills, and they're just out there playing, right?
你需要把整个领域分解成子技能，然后逐一练习。
You want to break the domain down to sub skills and then rehearse each one.
我之所以用‘练习’这个词，是因为你想要做的，正是你在实际比赛中会做的事情，对吧？
Now the reason I use rehearse is you want to do exactly what you would do in the actual game, right?
比如，如果你想在考试中表现得好，你就得参加考试，也就是说：让我们来分解一下。
So for example, if you want to get good at taking tests, you have to take tests, which is to say the following: let's deconstruct that.
接下来两分钟，我将总结学习一门学科的所有要点。
I'm going to, in the next two minutes, summarize everything there is to know about learning a subject.
就是这一点：你练习考试中要求你做的每一件事。
And it's this: you rehearse whatever you are required to do on the test.
想想一场考试。
Think about a test.
在考试中，你会遇到从未见过的问题，必须从记忆中搜索相关信息。
On a test, you are asked questions you've never seen before, and you have to search your memory for the relevant information.
第一步：阅读题目。
Step one: read the question.
第二步：在大脑中搜索相关信息。
Step two: search brain for relevant information.
第三步：将这些信息整理成正确答案。
Step three, collate that information into an answer, right answer.
为了在这些科目中取得好成绩，你必须练习每一个步骤。
You have to rehearse each one of those steps to do well in those subjects.
对。
Right.
这意味着，你需要一种备考的方式——我讨厌用‘准备’或‘学习’这个词，因为大多数人说‘备考’或‘学习’时，其实指的是下面这种情况。
So what that means is you need the way to prepare for a test, I hate the word prepare or study, because here's what most people mean by the word prepare for or study for a test.
重读我的笔记。
Reread my notes.
如果你回想一下高中和大学的时候，我观察过大多数学生，他们通常会用荧光笔标出课本内容，做大量笔记，然后反复阅读这些标注和笔记。
If you think back to when you were in high school and college, I looked at most students, and what they would do is they would highlight their textbooks and take lots of notes, and then reread their highlightings and reread their notes.
但这并不是在练习一项技能。
But that's not rehearsing a skill.
对。
Right.
没有人会测试你如何使用荧光笔标注。
No one tests you on how will you highlight.
对。
Right.
没有人会测试你重读笔记的能力，因为在考试中，你根本不会重读任何东西。
No one tests you on on rereading your notes, because on the test, you're not rereading anything.
你面对的是一个完全全新的情境。
You're seeing an entirely new situation.
所以，要精通任何学科和领域，就要练习你真正需要掌握的技能。
So the way to get good at at any subject and any domain is to rehearse the skills that you're actually required to do.
所以，做练习题。
So practice questions.
做你从未见过的练习题，然后你需要在记忆中搜索相关信息。
Practice questions that you've never seen before, and you then have to search your memory for the relevant information.
顺便说一下，这很有帮助。
By the way, it helps.
我在大学时会找一些老师没用的教材，看看里面出了哪些题目。
What I would do in college is I would get textbooks the teacher wasn't using, and I would see what questions were asked there.
所以我真的会去接触那些从未见过的题目，甚至来自不是我教授、也不是我所读教材作者的老师和教材作者。
So I'd really get questions I'd never seen before, even from teachers, teachers, authors, textbook authors, that weren't my professor and weren't the authors of the textbook I was reading.
所以我会被这些问题难住，对吧？
So I'd really get stumped with questions, right?
因为实际考试中就会遇到这种情况。
So because that's going to happen in the actual game.
比如，想象你是一个篮球教练，对吧？
So for example, imagine you're a basketball coach, right?
你想训练你的篮球运动员。
And you want to train your basketball players.
在某些时候，你的主力球员可能会无法上场，对吧？
At certain points, your key player is going to be out of action, right?
犯规离场或者受伤了，对吧？
Fouled out or injured, right?
我会让他们进行只有四个人上场的篮球比赛，去掉其中一个球员，对吧？
I would have them play basketball games where take out one of the players and you're now playing with four, right?
或者我会想办法让他们的手臂被裹起来之类的，让动作受到一点限制，比如，好吧，你肌肉酸痛了，现在你还是要打球。
Or one of you, like, I would try to find a way to make their arm a little, like, wrap it up or something, so it was a little constrained, like, okay, you've got a muscle sore, now you're playing the game.
现在练习。
Now practice.
现在练习。
Now practice.
现在排练。
Now rehearse.
排练。
Rehearse.
对吧？
Right?
因此，在多变的条件下进行排练。
So rehearse under varying conditions.
但关键在于，学习任何技能的核心——如果今天我只说了一件事，那这件事极其重要——学习任何技能的关键就是反复排练。
But a key, the key to learning any skill, really if there's anything I said today, like that was super important, the key to learning any skill, rehearse it.
将技能分解为子技能，然后分别对每个子技能进行排练。
Break it down into sub skills and then rehearse each of those skills.
如果你做的不是这些，那你就是在浪费时间。
If you're doing something other than that, you're wasting your time.
反复阅读你的笔记，纯属浪费时间。
Rereading your notes, waste of time.
你想在面试中表现出色吗？
You want to get good at a job interview?
让别人问你问题，找一个不了解你的人来问你问题，对吧？
Have someone ask you questions, someone who doesn't know you ask you questions, right?
然后仔细评估你的表现，认真听自己的回答。
And then grade your feedback Exactly listen to it
对。
right.
然后根据反馈，就是这样，谢恩。
And then exactly right with the feedback, Shane.
然后，好吧，我说话太快了。
Then, okay, I spoke too fast.
对。
Right.
我曾经指导过一位年轻女性。
I was coaching a young woman.
她即将参加一场面试，每当我讲话时，她都会这样做。
She had a job interview coming up, and whenever I spoke, she did the following.
来，跟我聊聊，现在就跟我聊，我要假装她是那个在听的人。
Here, talk to me, talk to me right now, and I'm gonna pretend to be her listening.
所以现在就跟我聊聊吧，谢恩。
So talk to me right now, Shane.
随便说点什么。
Just say anything.
我希望你做的是
What I want you to do is
嗯，嗯。
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
开始吧
Go
到嗯嗯。
to Uh-huh.
她会非常快地说‘嗯嗯’，于是我问她：‘你有没有意识到，你这样是在传递出你没有在听对方说话的信息？’
The She would say, uh-huh, so quickly, and I said, Are you aware that you are signaling that you're not listening to the other person?
她愣住了，她可是毕业于哥伦比亚大学的，你知道的，一所好学校，顶尖的学校。
And she was dumbfounded, and she'd gone to Columbia University, I mean, you know, a good school, right, great school.
她说：‘从来没有人告诉过我这一点。’
She said, No one's ever told me that before.
我说：‘你‘嗯’得那么快，根本不可能听清我问你或对你说的话。’
I said, You say 'uh ' so quickly, there's no way you heard what I asked you or said to you.
你传递的唯一信息就是：你根本没有在听我讲。
And all you're signaling is, You're not listening to me.
我本来就不太喜欢你。
I already don't like you.
但我其实挺喜欢她的。
I liked her.
我的意思是，我当时在给予
I mean I was giving
她的反馈
her feedback
作为导师，对吧？
as a mentor, right?
所以你需要反馈，而她感到震惊。
And so you need feedback and she was stunned.
她说从来没有人告诉过我这一点。
She said no one's ever told me that before.
我说，说话慢一点。
And I said just talk more slowly.
不要那么快说‘uh’，要认真听对方说话。
Don't say a so quickly, listen to the person.
让我稍微总结一下。
So let me encapsulate this a little bit.
如果我在学校，上大学或高中，我在学物理。
If I'm in school, I'm in university, high school, I'm doing physics.
嗯。
Mhmm.
章节末尾的问题，嗯。
The questions at the end of the chapter Mhmm.
哪个
Which
大多数人觉得烦或者避而远之，老师可能会只布置奇数题或偶数题。
most people annoy or or avoid and teachers may assign the odd numbers or the even numbers.
对。
Right.
你应该把所有题目都做一遍，不要看笔记，试着自己完成。
You should be doing them all and not not looking at your notes, trying to do them.
如果卡住了，再回去翻书。
And then if you're stuck, go back and look in your book.
完全正确。
Exactly right.
如果你重读笔记，你只是变得擅长解决那些你之前已经见过的问题。
If you reread your notes, all you're getting good at is like following following problems you've already seen before.
当你遇到新问题时，这不会有帮助，因为考试中遇到的正是新问题。我再进一步说。
That's not gonna help you when you get a new problem because that's what's gonna happen on the I'll go one better.
你想真正变得出色吗？
You want to get really good?
在阅读章节之前，先尝试做章末的示例题目。
Try the sample questions at the end of the chapter before you read the chapter.
哦，这很有趣。
Oh, that's interesting.
因为这样做能为你做好准备。
Now, because what that does is it primes you.
突然间，哇，我怎么可能答得出这些问题呢？
Now all of a sudden, woah, how would I there's no way I can answer those questions.
现在，当你阅读章节时，你就已经准备好分辨哪些内容相关、哪些不相关了。
Let's now you're primed as you read the chapter of what's relevant and what's not.
而且你还会为接下来的内容做好准备。
And you also prime yourself for the following.
当我信息不全时会发生什么？
What happens when I have incomplete information?
对。
Right.
如果我忘记了勾股定理怎么办？
What happens if I forget the Pythagorean theorem?
那我该怎么回答这个问题呢？
How do I answer the question then?
顺便说一下，我当初在普林斯顿评论就是这样做的。
That's what I did at the Princeton Review by the way.
当你只知道五个选项中的两个时，你会怎么做？
What happens when you know only two of the five choices, what do you do?
对。
Right.
当你熟练时，你可以做很多不同的事情，对吧？
Like there's a whole range of things that you can do when you're skilled, right?
那么，作为一名棒球运动员，如果汗水进了眼睛，而一个飞球朝你飞来，你该怎么办，对吧？
So what happens as a baseball player if I've got sweat in my eye and a fly ball is coming at me, what do I do, right?
我的意思是，你不仅需要练习常规情况，还要为不寻常的情况做准备
I mean you need to rehearse for the unusual as well as
非理想条件。
Non optimal conditions.
非理想条件，因为你永远不能指望理想条件，永远不能。
Non optimal conditions, because you can't ever count on optimal, ever.
如果遇到理想条件，那很好，你运气不错。
And if you get them, great, you're lucky.
那么，你现在会以不同的方式整理聪明学生所知道的内容吗？还是会采用同样的方法，比如给一页地质学内容，你会怎么更新它？
So would you organize what's what smart students know differently now, or would you take the same approach, which is like, here's a page of geology, and how would you update that?
我会让他们说，我会让他们分解。
I would ask them to say I'd I'd I'd ask them to break down.
我会教他们如何自学。
I'd have I'd teach them how to teach themselves.
我会以一种苏格拉底式的方式问他们：在这次考试中，这些题目你们以前见过吗？是或不是？
I'd say, Okay, in a little Socratic way, on their test, on this material, will you have seen the questions before, yes or no?
没有。
No.
我会引导他们去发现：哇，只是重读我的笔记完全是浪费时间。
I'd step them through and get them to discover, Woah, reading my notes, rereading my notes is just a total waste of time.
他们就只会做这个。
That's all they do.
他们在课堂上逐字记录笔记。
They take notes in class verbatim.
这是一个技能。
Here's a skill.
在考试中，你是直接复述老师的话，还是用自己的话表达出来？
On the test, do you parrot back exactly your teacher's words or do you express them in your own words?
当然，你要用自己的话表达出来。
Well, of course you express them in your own words.
那么，你就得练习这样做。
Well, then you have to rehearse doing that.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
所以你在学校记笔记时，很可能都是逐字记录，因为你得跟上老师的节奏，对吧？
So when you take notes in school, they're probably verbatim just because you've to keep up with the teacher, right?
但之后要把这些笔记翻译成你自己的话，因为考试时你必须这么做。
But then translate those notes into your own words because that's what you're gonna have to do on the test.
不要重读你的笔记，要把它们转化成自己的话。
Don't reread your notes, translate them.
对。
Right.
因为考试时你必须这么做。
Because you gotta do that on the test.
如果你以前没做过，考试时你就没法做到。
And if you haven't done it before, you're not gonna be able to do it on the test.
这真的很有意思。
That's really fascinating.
那这对成年人呢？他们可能在工作中需要学习新技能或
How does that carry over to adults then who might be working organization or, need to acquire new skills or
啊，关键是弄清楚你需要做什么，然后练习这项技能。
Ah, well, to figure out what it is you're required to do and then and to rehearse that skill.
比如说，做演示。
Like, let's say it's presentations.
你得向客户做演示。
You've gotta give presentations to clients.
对吧？
Right?
那么你就得反复练习。
Then you're gonna have to rehearse that.
来自第39期，泰勒·科文。
From episode number 39, Tyler Cowen.
那么如何
How in
在你看来，我们如何培养良好的判断力？
your opinion do we develop good judgment?
我认为，拥有你信任的人作为你的导师非常重要，我这里说的‘导师’是广义的，他们能教你不同领域的知识，教你如何做出判断，同时还要辅以极端而密集的线上实践。
I think having people you trust who serve as your mentors, and I mean that word in a very general way, who teach you things about different areas and teach you judgment, That's supplemented by extreme and intense online experimentation.
这就是正确的方法。
That's the way to do it.
你所说的线上实验是什么意思？
What do you mean by online experimentation?
阅读维基百科，创造性地使用谷歌，听你最喜欢的播客，阅读你喜爱的博客，花时间打造一个精彩的推特信息流——无论是什么形式，都值得投入时间，并且要大量去做，因为今天是历史上前所未有的黄金时代。
Read Wikipedia, use Google creatively, listen to your favorite podcasts, read your favorite blogs, put time into having a wonderful Twitter feed, whatever it's gonna be, it is worth investing time in and do a lot of it because today is the golden age for that, for the first time in world history.
现在出现了一种新事物，比如互联网文化、互联网的学习方式、互联网的写作模式。
There's this new thing like internet culture, the internet way of learning, internet modes of writing.
现在之于互联网，就像18世纪80年代之于古典音乐一样，所以好好享受吧。
Right now is to that, as say, you know, the 1780s were to classical music, so enjoy it.
这太惊人了。
It's incredible.
我们现有的在线教育是人类历史上最伟大的成就之一，我们在短短十五年左右就基本建成了它，这是一个极其迅速的变革。
Online education as we have it is one of the world's greatest achievements ever, and we've put almost all of it in place in say fifteen years, incredibly rapid transformation.
所以你要去做这些，但绝不能忽视与他人面对面的学习，他们能引导你、激励你、鼓舞你、指引你。
So do that, but you cannot neglect face to face learning from other human beings who can like guide you, inspire you, motivate you, steer you.
真正能取得成功的人，是那些能把这两者结合起来的人。
It's really people who can combine those two things who will do well.
我们如何收集反馈来认识自己的局限性？
How do we collect the feedback for ourself to realize our own limitations?
其实，这个问题有两个难点。
Like, there's two problems with that.
一个是获得准确的反馈，另一个是放下自我，允许自己看到它。
One is getting accurate feedback, and the second is kind of moving out of the way of our ego and allowing ourselves to see it.
我们怎样才能在这方面做得更好？
How how we be better at that?
我认为，如今的反馈比以往任何时候都多。
Well, think there's more feedback today than ever before.
很多工作，你的表现现在都能被衡量，或者可以被衡量，而这在二三十年前是做不到的。
So many jobs, your performance is measured or can be measured in a way that wasn't true twenty or thirty years ago.
比如，如果你是个程序员，要判断自己水平如何并不难。
You know, if you're a programmer, it's not that hard to figure out how good you are.
有GitHub，你可以展示自己做过的东西，世界会决定是否想雇你。
There's GitHub, and you can post what you've done, and the world will want to hire you or they won't.
是的。
Right.
所以，这其中很大一部分是心理层面的。
So a lot of it's psychological.
你如何接受反馈？
How can you accept the feedback?
因为我们没有人真的那么优秀，而生活就是不断被谦卑的过程。
Because none of us are actually that great, and life is an experience of being humbled all the time.
所以你可能会因此气馁，也可能会因此重新获得动力，我认为学会如何重新激励自己很重要——你随时可以上网看到有人比你更聪明、更好看，或者在健身房能举更重的重量，无论以什么标准衡量，除非你是马格努斯·卡尔森并且下的是国际象棋，否则总有人比你强。
So you're either discouraged or you're reenergized by that, and I think learning how to reenergize yourself, you can always go online and see someone who's like smarter or better looking or who can, you know, lift more weights in the gym than you can, whatever the metric is, unless you're Magnus Carlsen and it's chess, there's someone better than you.
在过去，当知识和社交圈更局限于本地时，情况通常并非如此。
And when knowledge and peer groups were more local in earlier periods of time, that wasn't usually the case.
因此，从心态上接受自己永远不是最好的，这可以说是互联网带给我们的一项全新而艰难的挑战，但我看到很多人已经能够应对。
So attitudinally, adopting to never being the best, think is, you know, a new tough challenge brought to us by the internet, but I see many people up to it.
这反而能让人重新充满动力。
It can be reenergizing.
有这么多新东西值得学习，这令人兴奋。
It's exciting how much new stuff there is to learn.
所以要更注重内在动力，比如我想成为什么样的人，我向往什么样的目标，而不是总想着‘我是这方面最棒的’、‘我是那方面最棒的’，因为你其实并不是。
So be more internally motivated, like I want to become something, I aspire to something, and be less like, oh, you know, I'm the best at this, I'm the best at that, because you're not.
作为父母，你是如何在孩子身上培养这种态度的？
As a parent, how did you foster that in your kids?
我们有一个女儿。
We have one daughter.
她现在28岁了，过得很好。
She is now 28 and, she's doing great.
我并不真的认为自己该为此功劳。
I don't really claim credit for her.
这份功劳属于她自己。
That credit goes to her.
但作为父母，你塑造了环境，确实有一定影响。
But as a parent, you shape the environment and you do have some influence.
我的意思是，你有没有刻意做过什么，来培养她的抗压能力、坚韧性和内在动力？
I mean, was there anything that you consciously were doing in terms of building resistance and tenacity and internal motivation?
除了那些陈词滥调，我来给你推荐一些实际的做法。
Other than the platitudes, here's what I recommend.
在孩子青春期时，尽量让他们接触你那些可能成为榜样的朋友。
Expose your child in teen years to as many of your friends who might be possible role models as possible.
到了某个阶段，他们就不会再听你的话了。
Like at some margin, they're just not gonna listen to you anymore.
他们也不会再关注你的行为了。
They're not gonna watch your behavior anymore.
他们已经了解你是什么样的人。
They know what you're about.
他们已经从你身上汲取了自己需要的东西。
They've taken from that what they're going to.
让他们结识并多与你的一些优秀朋友相处。
Have them meet and spend time with some of your quality friends.
让他们接触新的榜样。
Show them new role models.
这就是我对别人的建议。
That's what I tell people.
你的影响力是有限的，无论好坏。
Your influence is limited, for better or for worse.
你过去读过一些重要的书，你称它们为‘地震书’，而现在你读的书多了很多，几乎都是可有可无的。
You used to read a few important books, you called them, I think, quake books, and now you read many more books almost disposable.
为什么会发生这种变化？
Like, why the change?
当你年轻的时候，很容易读到那些会颠覆你所有认知的书，这些就是‘地震书’。
When you're young, it's quite easy to read books that will shake everything you know, and those are the quake books.
对我来说，读哈耶克的书是一本‘地震书’，读我人生中最早接触的科幻小说是一本‘地震书’，读约翰·斯图尔特·穆勒的自传也是一本‘地震书’，因为你的世界观尚未定型，书籍对你有着惊人的影响力。
So for me, you know, a quake book was reading Friedrich Hayhaic, a quake book was reading the early science fiction I read in my life, a quake book was reading John Stuart Mill's autobiography, and because your worldview is not as formed, books have an incredible influence over you.
但当你年纪渐长，比如到了40岁左右，我并不是说你再也不会改变想法——你其实一直在调整观点，但要再像第一次听到贝多芬或第一次拿起莎士比亚那样产生巨大冲击，就变得极其困难了。
Then as you get older, say, you know, by the time you hit 40, I don't mean that you never change your mind about things, you're changing your mind all the time, but it's very hard for something to have the impact, say like the first time you heard Beethoven or the first time you picked up Shakespeare.
这种事已经不可能再发生了。
It's just not possible anymore.
所以你开始读更多历史书、传记，为了某个具体事实而读，为了深入了解不同地区或不同产业的文化人类学而读，阅读的目的发生了变化，书籍在某种程度上变得更具可替代性。
So you read more history books, you read more biographies, you read more for a particular fact, you read for a kind of entry into cultural anthropology of different places or different industrial sectors, and what reading is changes, and books do in a way become more disposable.
我至今还保留的书有荷马、莎士比亚，还有一些基础的经济学著作，我永远不会放弃这些书，但它们现在未必是我正在读的书。
Like the books I still own are Homer, Shakespeare, some basic works of economics, and I'm not ever gonna give up those books, but they're not necessarily the books I'm reading now.
我偶尔会重新阅读它们。
I do reread them sometimes.
你最近五年读过的书，会重新读吗？
Do you reread anything you've kind of read in the last five years?
莎士比亚的作品，我经常重读。
Shakespeare, I reread pretty frequently.
这可能是我重读最多的，但任何经典作品，我大概都会在十年左右的时间内重读一遍。
That's probably what I reread the most, But any classic work I'm likely to reread over the course of say a ten year period.
詹姆斯·乔伊斯的《青年艺术家的肖像》，我很快就要重读了。
So James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, I'm gonna reread soon.
我猜大概有二十年没读过了。
I probably haven't read it for twenty years I would guess.
你读书有什么原则吗？
What are your rules for reading?
我的意思是，你是从头到尾读完一本书，还是在拿起一本书后，你的阅读流程是怎样的？
I mean, do you read cover to cover or do you, after you pick up a book, what's your process like?
经典作品我会从头到尾读完，这几乎是经典作品的定义。
Classics I read cover to cover, almost by definition of a classic.
大多数书我读不完，但非常好的书我会读完。
Most books I don't finish, very good books I finish.
大概每十本书里我才会读完一本，但这并不是对这些书的贬低。
Maybe one book in 10 I'll finish, but I don't mean that as any slight to the books.
你总得想想，这本书的第七章，是不是比从头开始读一本新书更好？
You've always got to think, well, chapter seven in this book, is it better than starting a new book altogether?
我现在阅读的很大一部分，都是为了我自己的播客系列采访嘉宾而进行的。
So much of my reading now is shaped by my reading for my own podcast series to interview guests.
我最近刚采访了彭博社的马特·莱文，他写的是法律和金融方面的内容，但他在大学本科时主修的是古典学。
So I just interviewed Matt Levine of Bloomberg, and he writes on law and finance, but when he was an undergraduate, he was a classics major.
所以我重新读了不少贺拉斯的作品，你知道的，那位罗马散文家和诗人，为的是更好地理解马特·莱文的思维。
So I reread quite a bit of Horace, you know, the Roman essayist and poet to try to get into the mind of Matt Levine.
因此，现在推动我阅读的最主要原因是，为了理解我所采访的那些人。
So that more than anything now drives my reading, reading to understand other people I'm interviewing.
那么对于一本典型的非虚构类书籍，你是从头到尾读序言，还是来回翻阅，还是……
So with a typical non fiction book, are you reading introductions straight through, or are you flipping around, or
我会来回翻阅。
I flip around.
我会先读开头的二十到三十页，看看这本书值不值得继续读下去。
I start the opening twenty, thirty pages just to see should I read this book at all.
我拿到的书有一半以上都过不了这一关。
More than half of all books I get don't pass that test.
还有很多书我只读了一半左右，但已经觉得很满意了，不过还是想读别的书。
Then there's plenty of books I'll read maybe half of and be quite happy with them, but still wanna read something else.
然后，像查尔斯·C·曼恩的新书这样真正出色的书，
And then, you know, a really good book like the new Charles C.
《巫师与先知》，讲的是关于环境问题的历史争论。
Mann book, The Wizard and the Prophets, about history of debates over the environment.
我读完了全部内容。
I read all of that.
这本书从头到尾都吸引着我。
That kept my interest the whole way through.
当然，还有很多这样的书。
There's certainly still plenty of books like that.
你主要是读Kindle电子书还是纸质书？
Do you read mostly in Kindle or physical books?
我不喜欢Kindle。
I don't like Kindle.
有时旅行时，我不得不使用它。
Sometimes when I travel, I need to use it.
我还能应付Kindle。
I can manage with Kindle.
用Kindle时，我觉得很难翻回去，而且当我能从物理上回忆起某段内容在书中的位置时，我记得更牢。
I find it hard with Kindle to like turn back, and I also remember things better when I think physically, what is their place in the book?
也许这听起来很傻，但我总觉得，哦，这应该是书的前半部分，我在脑子里能想起它在书里的位置，因此能记起来，但用Kindle就做不到。
Maybe that's silly, but I think, oh, that was, like, early in the book, and I see where it is in my mind in the book, and I remember it, and I can't do that with Kindle.
我也有同样的感觉。
I have the same thing.
这真的很奇怪。
It's really weird.
我能记得，哦，我觉得是在这一页的中间部分，大概在70到80页之间，但不知为什么，用Kindle就完全做不到。
I can remember, oh, I think it's like this part of the page, you know, between seventy and eighty, but I can't do that at all with the Kindle for some reason.
这真的很奇怪。你会在书上做笔记吗？
That's a really strange Do you write in the books?
你会做笔记吗？
Do you write?
不会。
No.
我有时候会把觉得特别重要的页面折角。
What I sometimes do is fold over pages where there's something notable.
这仅限于我拥有的书，而不是图书馆的书。
That's if I own the book, not a library book.
然后我可能会回头再看，但通常我不会。
And then maybe I'll go back to it, but usually I don't.
只是折角这个动作有助于我记住它。
Just the act of folding over the page helps me remember it.
比如，我觉得这很特别，我在提醒自己，然后它就更容易留在我的记忆里。
Like, I found that notable, I'm telling myself, and then it sticks with me better.
然后我会把书送人或扔掉。
And then I'll give the book away or throw it out.
不久前
A while ago
送书给别人时要小心。
Be careful about giving books away.
如果你把书送人，风险是对方会因为是礼物而读它。
If you give a book away, the danger is a person will read it just because it's a gift.
除非你认为这本书正是他们应该读的，否则送人书其实是一种略显残忍的行为。
Unless you think it's the book they should be reading, it's actually slightly cruel act to give someone a book.
我以前也遇到过这种情况，我送别人书，他们却从中解读出某种暗示，好像我在悄悄地对他们说‘是的’。
I've had that happen before where I've given people books and they've taken messages out of it, like I was trying to send them a subtle Yes.
一种我根本没打算传达的微妙信息。
Subtle message that I was never intending to give them.
比如，你认为我是个神经质的角色。
Like, oh, you think I'm this neurotic character.
抱歉啊。
Well, I'm sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
事情就是这样，而且要过一段时间才会暴露出来，然后你就想，嘿，这到底是怎么回事？
That's exactly what happens and it it takes a while for it to come out and it's like, hey, what happened?
所以，送书这件事，我觉得其实被高估了。
So giving books away, you know, it's overrated, I think.
因为我写博客，经常报道很多书，所以我经常收到很多预印本。
I also get a lot of review copies because I blog, I cover a lot of books.
所以通常一天会有十本书寄到，我需要想办法处理这些书，其中一些我会送人。
So a typical day, to 10 books could come in the mail and I need some way of dealing with those and some I do give away.
还有一些人，我跟他们很熟，他们信任我，知道我送书给他们并不代表任何含义。
And then there are people, I know them well enough, they trust me, they know my giving them the book signals nothing.
这是一种非常美好的关系。
And that's just like a beautiful relationship.
我通常会把那些高级副本、预览本、评论本直接放到我家附近的借阅图书馆，那里可能比正式出版前就有更多书流出。
I usually take those advanced copies, preview copies, review copies and chuck them in the lending library right by my house, which probably has, you know, it has more books coming out before they're actually out.
人们一定很喜欢待在那里。
People must love being around there.
你之前说过你读书很快，并且说要读得快就得读得多。
One thing that you said a while ago was that you read fairly quickly, and you said to read quickly, you should read a lot.
你这句话是什么意思？
What did you mean by that?
我读非虚构类书籍非常快。
I read non fiction very quickly.
我读小说没那么快。
I don't read fiction very quickly.
也许我读得比大多数人快一点。
Maybe I read it a little quicker than most people.
你读得越多，就越能预判书中内容，阅读起来也就越容易、越快。
The more you've read, the more you know what's coming in the books you're reading, so the easier and quicker it is to read them.
所以，比如我现在读一本书，你知道，我56岁了，从三岁就开始读书。
So like if I read a book now, you know, I'm 56 years old, I started reading when I was three.
如果有人问我：‘你读那本书花了多长时间？’
If someone asks me, well, how long did it take you to read that book?
正确的答案是五十三年。
The correct answer is fifty three years.
不管是什么书都一样。
It doesn't matter what the book is.
你正在将过去五十三年的阅读经验运用到这本书上。
You're bringing to bear your last fifty three years of reading on the book.
而你大部分的阅读理解，都源于你之前的投入。
And most of your reading, you're understanding results from your prior investment.
所以，读好书的方法就是，你知道的，活在这世上，持续阅读。
So that's the way to read well is, you know, stick around on this earth and keep on reading.
我认为，这绝对是最好的建议。
That's by far the best advice, I think.
坚持下去。
Keep at it.
好好活着。
Stay alive.
我喜欢这个说法。
I like that.
你觉得怎样才能很好地思考？
What would you say is the way to think well?
我不认识谁是真正善于思考的。
I don't know anyone who thinks well.
我觉得你以前写过一篇关于形成观点所需付出的努力的文章，或者我好像记得有这么一篇。
I I think you wrote a piece a while ago, or I seem to remember this, which is the work required to have an opinion.
我觉得你提到过，要从他人的角度来写一篇文章。
I think you alluded to writing an article from the point of view of someone else.
是的。
Yes.
根据所谓的贝叶斯统计理论，存在一个基本的困境。
There's a basic dilemma from what's called Bayesian statistical theory.
你为什么应该持有独立的观点呢？
Why should you ever hold an independent opinion?
在几乎所有事情上，也许任何事情上，都可能有人比你更了解它。
Like on almost any matter, maybe any matter, there's someone out there who knows more about it than you do.
所以从某种意义上说，你只需去复制其他人的观点，但那你又该如何判断谁最了解、理解得最好呢？
So you should in a sense just find other people's opinions to copy, but then how do you judge who's the person who knows the most or understands it the best?
这中间存在一个悖论，因为如果你不知道正确答案，就很难判断谁才是最好的评判者。
There's a paradox in that because if you don't know the right answer, it's hard to judge who is the best judge.
所以其中一个推论是，我们对自己的许多观点应该更加谨慎。但正如我之前提到的，懂得何时以及如何退让的智慧，是我们这个时代2018年的关键智慧，而这一点却未被充分重视。
So one implication is we should just be far less sure about a lot of our opinions, But also this point, referred to it earlier, the wisdom in knowing how and when to defer is like the key wisdom of twenty eighteen of our time, and this is under publicized.
你所说的‘懂得如何或何时退让’的智慧，具体是指什么？
What do you mean the wisdom to knowing how to defer or when to defer?
你可以通过谷歌获取世界上绝大部分的信息。
Well, you can Google to such a high percentage of the world's information.
而且，这一点是相当新的。
And again, this is pretty new.
所以当你知道如何判断互联网上信息的质量时，有人会说，互联网让聪明的人更聪明，让愚蠢的人更愚蠢。
So when you know how to judge the quality of something on the internet, sometimes said, you know, the internet makes smart people smarter and stupid people stupider.
这就又回到了‘平均值已过时’这个观点。
So it gets back to average is over.
你希望自己属于哪一类？
Like which category do you wanna be in?
保持认识上的谦逊，但也要做一个批判性的读者。
Be epistemically modest, but also be a critical reader.
了解如何评估信息来源的一般性知识，这又回到了通才与专才的问题。
And just having a general knowledge of how to evaluate sources, getting back to being generalist versus specialist.
如果你要成为通才，那么成为通才最好的方面之一，就是评估你在推特动态、网络上各处的信息来源质量。
If you're gonna be a generalist, one of the best things to be a generalist in is evaluating the quality of sources in your Twitter feed, online, everywhere.
这极其重要，而且其重要性正在急剧上升。
That is so important, and it's skyrocketing in significance.
大多数人在这方面并没有变得好多少。
Most people, they're not getting that much better at it.
你如何看待这个问题？
How do you think about that?
我们如何提升判断能力？
How can we improve our ability to judge?
我认为，再次强调，这需要与你真正信任、且懂行的面对面的人进行多方验证，再结合大量使用互联网进行交叉核对和深入调查，不断来回反复地进行，越快越好，这样你就会越来越擅长。
I think, again, it's this triangulation with really good face to face people you trust and who know something, and then intense use of the internet to cross check and investigate things, and just kind of bounce back and forth and do that around and around in a circle as much as you can, as quickly as you can, and you get better.
别以为你什么都知道。
And don't think you know it all.
你知道吗，如果有什么让你反感，不要直接假设它是错的。
You know, if something offends you, don't assume it's wrong.
我也会建议，我不是说这一定对，但如果你直接否定它，你就无法从中学习。
I would also recommend, I'm not saying it's right, but if you dismiss it, you won't learn from it.
所以尽量学会从几乎每件事中汲取教训。
So try to be able to learn from almost everything.
所以当你读到与你想法或观点相悖的内容时，你是如何处理这些信息的？
So when you read something that disagrees with your thoughts or opinions, how process do that information?
我努力对此感到更开心。
I try to be happier about it.
这并不总是能做到的。
It's not always possible.
我们都是不完美的人，但我可以说，很多时候我是成功的。
We're all imperfect creatures, but I would say a lot of times I succeed.
总的来说，我更感兴趣的是读那些我不同意的书，而不是我同意的书。
Overall, I'm more interested in reading books I disagree with than books I agree with.
我同意的很多书可能确实不错，但它们往往让我觉得无聊。
A lot of books I agree with, they could be quite good, but they tend to bore me.
这是我对自己感到满意的一点。
And that's one thing about myself I feel good about.
我同意的书往往会让我觉得无聊。
Books I agree with tend to bore me.
我把这看作是我人生中取得的一个小小的胜利。
I view that as some kind of like minor tiny victory I've achieved in life.
我觉得这算得上是一个很大的胜利。
I think this is a pretty big victory.
你在读书之前会有一种心理状态吗？比如，这是我的立场，然后读完一本你不同意的书后，你会看看自己的立场有没有改变？
Do you have a mental state before you read the book, as in like, this is my position, and then after a book you maybe disagree with and view how your position has changed?
我不知道，我觉得我比那更淡然。
I don't know, I think I'm more blase than that.
地上堆着一堆书，我妻子可能觉得这堆书太多了，但如果我把它们收起来，就会忘记它们在哪儿。
Like there's a pile of books on the floor, and probably my wife thinks the pile is too large, but if I put them away, I'll forget where they are.
所以我希望这堆书能少一点，我更关注一些非常琐碎的事情，而不是我们这个时代宏大的意识形态斗争，不管那是什么。
So I want the pile to be smaller and I'm more focused on very mundane things than like the grand ideological struggle of our time, whatever.
更多地关注琐碎的事情，也许对阅读书籍也有帮助，因为你不会太纠结于被冒犯，或者想‘这个人不懂这个或那个’，然后就直接否定他。
And to focus more on the mundane things maybe is also helpful for reading the books because you don't get too caught up in being offended or like, oh, I've heard this person doesn't know this or that, and I can dismiss them.
有一种智力上的做法，我称之为‘贬低并忽视’，你知道的，尽量不要这么做。
There's an intellectual move which I call devalue and dismiss, you know, try not to do devalue and dismiss.
你学到的东西会少得多，而且这总是有道理的，对吧？
You learn much less, and it's always justified, right?
再说一遍，除非是马格努斯·卡尔森下棋，或者可能是计算机程序下棋，否则你总能贬低并忽视对方。
Again, unless Magnus Carlsen playing chess or maybe a computer program playing chess, you can always devalue and dismiss.
那个人，他十年前都没理解这个事件。
Oh, that person, he didn't understand this event ten years ago.
他或她懂得并不多。
He or she doesn't know very much.
总是有可能的。
Always possible.
别这么做。
Don't do it.
我们这样做是为了贬低他们，还是为了让自己显得更优越？
Are we doing that to discredit them or relatively position ourself better?
我觉得两者都有，但主要是后者。
I think both, but mostly the latter.
人们希望对自己感觉良好。
People wanna feel good about themselves.
他们希望找到一条通往美德、真理和掌控感的捷径。
They want a kind of easy path to virtue, to truth, to feeling in control.
我们喜欢感觉自己某种程度上是有掌控力的。
We love to feel somewhat in control.
最后，来自第112期，我的朋友亚当·格兰特。
And finally, from episode 112, my friend Adam Grant.
让我们谈谈传教士、检察官、政客和科学家。
Let's talk about the preachers, prosecutors, and politicians, and scientists.
是的。
Yeah.
要感谢菲尔·泰特洛克，是他把这个框架带到了我的视野中。
So credit to Phil Tetlock for bringing this framework onto my radar.
菲尔大约二十年前写了一篇了不起的论文，他说：你看，很多关于决策和判断的研究都假设人们像超级理性的经济学家或科学家一样思考。
Phil wrote this amazing paper almost twenty years ago now, where he said, look, you know, a lot of a lot of research on decision making and judgment assumes that people are are thinking like hyper rational economists or scientists.
但实际上，我们并不是这样。
And we're not, actually.
我们远比那更具有社会性。
We're much more social creatures than that.
当我读到这篇论文时，我突然意识到，这对我作为一名组织心理学家来说，是一个完美的隐喻。
And as I read this paper, it suddenly dawned on me that this is this is a perfect metaphor for me as an organizational psychologist.
因为我们在思考和谈论自己从未从事过的专业上，花费了过多的时间。
Because we spend an inordinate amount of time thinking and talking, like professions we have never held.
对吧？
Right?
就像那些我们从未接受过训练的职业。
Like occupations we were never trained in.
想想你一生中花在说教上的时间有多少。
So think about how much time you spend in your life preaching.
对吧？
Right?
你已经找到了真理，你的任务就是传播它。
You've already found the truth, and your job is to proselytize it.
控诉，就是你认为某人错了，你的任务是证明这一点并赢得你的案件，或在争论中占上风。
Prosecuting, you find somebody who you think is wrong, and your job is to prove it and win your your case, or come out ahead in the argument.
而搞政治，就是你认为自己有一群支持者，你需要讨好他们。
And politicking, where you think, okay, I've got a base of people who I'm trying to curry favor with.
所以你要为获得他们的认可和支持而开展一场运动。
And so I've got a campaign for their approval and support.
我开始意识到，当我写完《再思考》一半的时候。
What what I started realizing is I was I was actually about halfway through writing Think Again.
我意识到这本书需要一个组织框架。
I realized it needed an organizing framework.
我试图鼓励人们做的很多事情，就是摆脱传道、控诉和政治操作的模式，转而像科学家一样思考。
And so much of what I was trying to encourage people to do was about getting out of the mode of of preaching, prosecuting, and politicking, and into the mode of thinking more like a scientist.
我之所以想这么做，部分原因在于，我认为传道和控诉的危险在于，你不会改变自己的想法。
And part of the reason that I wanted to do that is, I think that, you know, the danger of preaching and prosecuting is that you don't change your mind.
你是对的。
You're right.
其他所有人都错了。
Everyone else is wrong.
因此，你可能非常希望别人重新思考，但你的观点却僵化了。
And so you might be very motivated to get other people to rethink, but your views are frozen.
它们已经固若金汤。
They're set in stone.
而政治操弄很有趣，因为当我们搞政治时，实际上反而更灵活。
And politicking is interesting because when we're being political, we're actually more flexible.
对吧？
Right?
我们甚至可能前后矛盾。
We might even flip flop.
但我们是在错误的时间，为了错误的理由这么做。
But we're doing it at the wrong times, and we're doing it for the wrong reasons.
因为我们只是为了取悦自己的群体，而不是为了寻找真相。
Because we're just doing it to appease our tribe as opposed to doing it to find the truth.
所以我认为，我们都应该学会更像科学家一样思考，比如说：你知道吗？
And so I think we could all get better at thinking more like scientists to say, you know what?
你的观点其实只是理论。
Your views, they're actually just theories.
对吧？
Right?
你可以把它们当作假设，然后在你的生活中做一些小实验，来判断它们是真是假。
You could you could kinda make them into hypotheses, and then you could run little experiments in your life to figure out whether they're true or false.
这不仅会让你思维更灵活，还会让你更有可能在正确的时候、为了正确的原因改变想法。
And that should leave you not only more mentally flexible, but also more likely to change your mind at the right times for the right reasons.
如果它不是自然法则，那么实际上它就只是一个理论。
If it's not a law of nature, like, effectively, it's just a theory.
没错。
Exactly.
你能再重复一遍，并向大约80亿人说一遍吗？
Can you say that again and repeat it to approximately 8,000,000,000 people?
是的。
Yeah.
真希望如此。
I wish.
如果是这样，你愿意让你的身份与你的职业稍微绑定在一起吗？
In that case, would you want your identity sort of tied up with your profession a little bit?
因为科学家通常会思考、改变想法，并寻找证据，哦。
Because scientists are known to sort of think and and change their mind and look for evidence and Oh.
这对我关于身份的观点是一种非常有趣的重新诠释。
That that is such an interesting reframing of my stance on identity.
我想你可能是对的。
I think you might be right.
我把自己视为一名社会科学家。
I see myself as a social scientist.
对吧？
Right?
当我思考自己、把自己看作一个喜欢科学地思考和交谈、并接受过相关训练的人时，这意味着我重视真理。
And thinking about myself, seeing myself as someone who likes to think and talk scientifically, and who was trained to do that, what that means to me is I value truth.
我更关心的是得出正确的答案，而不是证明自己是对的。
I'm I'm more interested in in getting the answer right than I am in being right.
你知道，这意味着我的许多观点仍然保持灵活。
You know, that that means lots of my opinions are still flexible.
对吧？
Right?
我有一套工具。
I have a set of tools.
我真的很喜欢实验。
So I really like experiments.
我特别喜欢做精心设计的纵向研究。
I really like doing, you know, carefully constructed longitudinal studies.
我认为这些工具经过了数个世纪的严格检验，是最有效、最可能独立验证、或者说最难被证伪的方法，能够帮助我们接近真相。
And I think those those tools have been rigorously tested over centuries, right, as being the the most valid and probably independently verifiable, or at least most difficult to falsify, right, techniques for for reaching the truth or at least getting closer to it.
我认为作为一名身份科学家，这很有帮助，因为它提醒我我们还有多少未知，以及要获得真相或其近似值有多么困难。
And I think as an identity scientist is helpful because it it reminds me how much we don't know and how hard it is to, you know, to arrive at the truth or a pro an approximation of it.
我想在提出下一个问题前先说明一下，我不想谈政治。
I wanna preface my next sort of question with I don't wanna talk about politics.
我不想谈自由派、民主党、共和党、保守派，或任何与此相关的内容。
I don't wanna talk about sort of liberal, democrat, republican, conservative, anything to do with that.
我真正想说的是，我们选出的大多数领导人，似乎都是因为他们的坚定、有远见，通常还富有魅力。
I really, what I wanna hit at is, it seems that most of our leaders, we elect them for being strong minded, clear sighted, you know, often charismatic.
既然我们知道，也许最好的民选官员应该是站起来说‘我不知道该怎么解决这个问题’的人，那我们为什么还会被这样的人吸引呢？
Why are we drawn to these people if we know that actually, maybe the best elected official would be the one that gets up and says, I don't know how to fix this.
我会直接聘请最优秀的人才，然后认真倾听他们的意见。
I would just hire the best people and listen to them.
但我们永远不会选举这样的人。
But we would never elect that person.
你认为这是为什么？
Why do you think that is?
我们为什么会如此被这种人吸引？
Why are we drawn to this?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我认为，我们其实已经选举过这样的人了。
I think I think we have elected that person.
我不认为这种情况经常发生。
I don't I don't think it happens that often.
但我认为在美国，富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福的新政竞选正是如此。
But I think that in The US, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, that was literally his campaign with the New Deal.
对吧？
Right?
那是一场完整的竞选，旨在说：你知道吗？
It was it was it was a whole campaign to say, you know what?
我们要进行大量试错实验，并从有效的方法中学习。
We're gonna we're gonna run a bunch of trial and error experiments and learn from what works.
不过，我认为这样的人很难当选。
I think it's hard for that person to get elected, though.
因为当我们面临危机、应对不确定性时，我们会倾向于那些让我们觉得能找出办法、解决问题的人。
Because as we face crises and we grapple with uncertainty, we're drawn to people who we feel like are gonna figure it out and gonna fix it.
所以，如果一个人太过犹豫，表现得过于谦逊，我认为我们会误以为这是无知的表现。
And so if if somebody hedges too much, if somebody shows too much humility, I think we mistake that as a sign of ignorance.
对吧？
Right?
这正是你多年来一直反对的基本陷阱，谢恩，即我们不该把自信误认为能力。
And it's the it's the basic trap that you've you've railed against for years, Shane, which is we should stop confusing confidence for competence.
对吧？
Right?
一个人对某个观点充满信心，并不意味着他们真的懂自己在说什么。
Just because somebody is is sure of an opinion does not mean they actually know what they're talking about.
事实上，任何熟悉邓宁-克鲁格效应的人都知道，人们对自己观点越确信，我们就越应该对倾听他们持谨慎态度。
And in fact, anybody who is is familiar with the Dunning Kruger effect will know that the the more sure people are of their opinions, the more hesitant we should be to listen to them.
对吧？
Right?
但追随那些坚信自己已经找到答案的人，有一种非常令人着迷的吸引力。
But there's something very intoxicating about following someone who believes they've already found the way.
我认为，这能给我们一种连贯感。
And I think it, you know, it gives us a sense of coherence.
它能给我们一种目标感。
It can give us a sense of purpose.
我们很容易把信任交给那些拥有清晰愿景的人。
It's easy to put our trust in people who, you know, who who have a clear vision.
当然，从长远来看，我最担心的就是这样的人，因为他们最容易对那个愿景过于执着，甚至在它早已过时后仍死守不放。
Of course, you know, in the long run, those are the people that I worry most about, because they're the ones who are most likely to to get too attached to that vision and stick to it long past its time.
而且我认为它也消除了不确定性。
And I I think it removes uncertainty too.
我们几乎宁愿错得坚定，也不愿在不确定中找到正确答案，因为不确定性会给我们带来巨大的困扰。
We would almost rather be wrong and certain than uncertain and land in the correct spot because it, like, wrecks havoc on us.
在某种程度上，你说得对。
At some level, you're right.
这是一种让别人替你思考的方式。
It it's a way of letting other people do your thinking for you.
这也就是为什么政党一直让我感到如此费解。
And this this is why political parties have always been such a mystery to me.
比如，当人们问我政治立场时，我会自己思考，努力根据接触到的信息形成独立的观点。
Like, when, you know, when people ask me what my politics are, I think for myself, I try to form independent opinions based on the information that I encounter.
而把自己定义为共和党人、民主党人、自由派或保守派，这在我看来很荒谬，因为这意味着我把思考的权利外包给了我认为并不怎么科学思考的一群人。
And the idea of identifying myself as a Republican or a Democrat or a liberal or conservative, that's ridiculous to me because it means I've outsourced my thinking to some group of people that I don't think are thinking very scientifically.
我们来聊聊这个，但不用政治术语，而是用‘部落’来比喻。
Let's talk about that without using politics, sort of, but like tribes.
我们融入这些群体，渴望有一种归属感。
Like, we we fit into these group we want a sense of belonging.
渴望融入群体、成为群体一员、在群体的等级中获得地位，这是非常人性的需求。
It's a very human thing to wanna fit in with a group, be part of a group, have status within that group in a hierarchy.
我们天生就有一种对等级秩序的生物性需求。
There's a biological sort of hierarchy need that we have.
即使我们在等级制度的最底层，也还是想知道自己在这个层级结构中的位置。
Even if we're lowest on the totem pole, we sort of like wanna know where we stand in this pecking order.
然后我们会接受群体身份和群体立场，而这些身份和立场往往非常难以改变。
And then we assume group identities and group positions, and those are really hard.
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