Marc Garneau on the Future of Transportation

嗨。

Hey.

我是谢恩·帕里什，欢迎收听《知识项目》的新一期节目，我们将拆解一些实用的策略，帮你做出更好的决策、学习新东西，过上更优质的生活。

It's Shane Parrish, welcome to a new episode of the knowledge project where we deconstruct actionable strategies that you can use to make better decisions, learn new things, and live a better life.

本期我们邀请到的是加拿大交通部长马尔克·加诺先生。

This time around, we have the honorable Marc Garneau, who is the minister of transport for the Canadian government.

马尔克自2008年起就是国会议员，之前曾负责工业、科技和外交事务的反对党影子部长工作。

Marc's been an elected member parliament since 2008 and previously served as the critic for industry, science, and technology, as well as foreign affairs.

他还担任过众议院党团领袖，并且是第一位进入太空的加拿大人。

He's been the house leader in the house of commons, and he was also the first Canadian to fly in space.

这听起来是不是特别酷？

Now how cool is that?

不过提前提醒一下，这次访谈是在加拿大蒙特利尔现场录制的。

But of a brief heads up, this interview is recorded live in Montreal, Canada.

音频效果可能和你平时听的不太一样，中间会夹杂一些法语，但别担心。

The audio is gonna be a little bit different than what you're used to, and there's bits of French here and there, but don't worry.

马克在做政府决策时带着工程师的思维，我和他聊得特别投缘。

Marc brings an engineer's mindset to government decisions, and I really enjoyed the conversation.

我觉得他也会喜欢这次对话。

I think he will too.

不多说了，下面请出马克。

Without further ado, here's Marc.

在正式开始之前，先听一段赞助商的简短广告。

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Our podcast sponsor is the Intelligent Fanatics Project.

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They create high performing organizations that dominate their market or industry for decades.

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Marc，今晚能有机会采访你，我真是特别兴奋。

Marc, I'm so excited to have the pleasure of interviewing you tonight.

你有着非常杰出的公共服务生涯。

You've had such an esteemed public service career.

今天能和你在一起，实在是一种难得的荣幸，非常感谢。

It's a rare honor to be here with you today, so thank you.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我想从一个很简单、但大多数人其实并不清楚的问题开始：你平时一天是怎么度过的？

I wanna start with something incredibly simple, but something that most of us don't know, which is how do you spend your days?

现在作为交通部长，我确实挺忙的，但说实话，我一直以来做的很多工作，都是我真正喜欢的。

I'm pretty busy these days as transport minister, but I have to say that I've always had the pleasure of, doing a number of jobs where I have, truly enjoyed what I was doing.

刚才的介绍里提到我当过宇航员，现在是政客，但在这之前，我其实是在海军服役。海军才是我最初的热爱。我12岁那年，有机会乘坐一艘远洋客轮横跨大西洋，那艘船从蒙特利尔出发，叫不列颠女皇号，目的地是英国的利物浦。就在那次航行中，我爱上了大海，之后就加入了海军。

In the very kind introduction they mentioned that I was an astronaut and that I was, now politician, but before all of that I was in the Navy and, the Navy was my first love in fact and, when I was 12 years old I had the chance to cross the ocean in a, in a, an ocean liner, in fact it left here from Montreal it was called the Empress of Britain and it went over to Liverpool in England and I was 12 years old I fell in love with the ocean and I joined the Navy.

是的，我的日子过得很充实，我觉得自己做的每一件事都是在为国家服务，这让我感到非常满足。

So yes I have, my days are full, they have all been I think in service of my country and, that has given me a great deal of satisfaction.

现在交通是我最主要的工作，相信在座的每一位对交通都有自己的看法——不管是飞机、火车、汽车还是卡车，大家对交通问题都特别有想法。

Transport now is my main preoccupation and, that's a job that everybody here I'm sure has an opinion on whether they're talking about airplanes, they're talking about railways, cars, trucks, everybody has strong opinions in fact about, transport.

这是一项体量巨大的工作，对加拿大这样的大国来说至关重要，我每天从早忙到晚，但说实话，我真的很享受这份工作。

It's a very, big file it's an important file for a big country like Canada and that keeps me very busy from morning to night but, I have to say again I truly enjoy doing it.

对我来说，这份工作充满热情，而我很幸运，这一生所做的每一件事都让我充满热情。

It's a job that to me, I'm passionate about and I've been lucky to be passionate about everything I've done in my life.

是什么让你特别选择了海军？

What attracted you to the Navy specifically?

为什么海军会成为你的热情所在？

Why was that your passion?

当时我正乘船横渡大西洋去英国，我父亲被派往那里。那是我第一次见到如此辽阔的海洋，航行途中我亲眼目睹了它的壮阔。

Well I was out on the ocean crossing on my way to England, my father had been posted there and the immensity of the ocean which was something that I had never seen and which I saw as we crossed.

途中我们遇到了恶劣天气，看到了波涛汹涌、狂浪翻滚的大海。

We had some bad weather so I saw an ocean that was that was very worked up tempestuous and it was rough.

我看到了平静美丽的海水和绚丽的日落，那一刻深深吸引了我，我心想，我绝不想一辈子坐在办公桌前工作。

I saw beautiful calm waters with beautiful sunsets and that just sort of grabbed me and I said this is what I never really wanted to do a job where I would be at a desk all day long.

我希望工作中有这一部分，固然重要，但也要有体力上的成分。

I wanted there to be yes that component which is important but also the physical component.

我还希望工作里包含其他能让我身体上有所挑战的事情，而海军恰恰就是这样的职业。

I wanted to be doing other things as well as part of my job, things that would perhaps challenge me physically and the Navy seemed to be that kind of a profession.

是浩瀚的空间也吸引了你吗？还是说这是另一回事？

Was the immensity of space what pulled you to that as well or is that something different?

在很多方面，它们非常相似。

It's very similar in many many ways.

那是一片广袤的前沿，你得依靠同伴才能活下来。

It is a vast frontier, it is one where you rely on your fellow crew members for your survival.

在船上出海时，身边只有你一个人，虽然现在科技发达了，但意外还是可能发生，你得依赖整个船员团队，在恶劣的环境中生存——这和在太空中的经历非常相似。事实上，我们把航天器叫作‘宇宙飞船’，那种探索新边疆的体验，本质上就是一样的。我之所以想成为宇航员，是因为我喜欢冒险，海军已经让我体会到了冒险的感觉，我觉得这会是一次新的冒险。

When you're in a ship, when you're out there it's just you and although we have modern technology today things can sometimes go wrong and you are depending on the rest of the crew in a hostile environment, sometimes hostile environment and it's very similar to what you do in space in fact I think it's we call call spacecraft spaceships and it is very much that kind of an experience of travel of going on to the new frontier and the reason that I decided that I wanted to become an astronaut was because I like adventure, the Navy had given me a sense of adventure, I thought this would be a new adventure.

当时你有没有意识到，你这个角色对加拿大人来说，能激发大家对科技的热情？还是说这是后来才慢慢体会到的？

Did you realize the enormity of that role for Canadians in terms of pulling us into excitement about science and technology at the time or is that something you came to recognize and appreciate after?

我觉得我是后来才意识到的，一开始根本没想那么多。

I think I came to recognize it afterwards, it's not something that dawned on me right away.

我当然知道，这对加拿大来说是个全新的领域。

I was certainly aware of the fact that this was a new area for Canada to be involved with.

我们早就有了航天计划，但大多数加拿大人对它知之甚少，那时候主要就是搞卫星。事实上，加拿大是全球第三个进入太空的国家，很多人根本不知道。而我们之所以能派宇航员上航天飞机，是因为我们设计了航天飞机上的机械臂——其中一部分就是在蒙特利尔设计的。美国宇航局想感谢我们，说你们的加拿大臂设计得太棒了，运行得特别好，我们想送几位加拿大人上天。加拿大政府觉得这主意不错，就在报纸上登了招聘启事，很多人报名，我看到后心想：这么好的机会，我绝对不能错过。

We had a space program, most Canadians did not know very much about it, it involved satellites and in fact it's quite a distinguished, Canada was the third country in space which a lot of people don't know, but bringing a human dimension to it with astronauts and the reason we were invited to, become astronauts and to fly on the space shuttle is because we had designed the robotic arm that is on the space shuttle and in fact part of it was designed here in Montreal and The United States NASA wanted to thank us and they said look you did such a great job with the design of the Canadarm it works very very well we'd like to fly a couple of Canadians and so the Government of Canada said it sounds like a good idea and they put an ad in the paper and lots of people applied and I saw it and I said to myself there's no way I'm going to pass up this opportunity to apply.

我知道自己大概不会被选上，但我绝不想以后后悔没试一试，于是我提交了申请，我的人生从此改变了。

I'm sure I won't be chosen but I don't want to kick myself later and say I should have tried and so I sent in my name and my life changed.

是什么促使你决定从政的？

What was the drive inspired you to run for office?

那又是另一回事了。

Well that's another matter.

当宇航员的时候，大家挺喜欢我的；可一进政坛，完全是另一回事，人们会直接告诉你他们怎么想。

Running for office is, I used to say when I was an astronaut people liked me, but when you enter the political arena it's a totally different arena and, people tell you what they think.

我属于自由派，但不是人人都这么想。有些人确实有不同看法，他们完全有权利表达，他们不同意我的立场，不同意我的政党，不同意我的观点——这都是政治的一部分。所以你必须认真考虑清楚：我从海军军官、工程师变成宇航员，最大的转变就是从一个普通人变成了公众人物。

I happen to be a liberal and not everybody's a liberal and, some people feel and and they're quite right they're entitled to tell you, that they don't agree with you, they don't agree with your party, they don't agree with you on your views and that is part of politics and so, you have to, you have to make a serious decision, because the big change in my life when I went from being a naval officer, I was an engineer, to becoming an astronaut, the big change is that I went from being a private person to being a public person.

那时我就明白，只要我上街去加拿大轮胎店买点东西，说不定就会有人认出我，想跟我聊几句。

So I knew then that when I walked down the street to go to I don't know to Canadian Tire to buy some, some jewels that people might recognize me that they might, want to talk to me.

以前周六早上出门，没人认识我，也没人在意，可突然间我意识到，我的生活发生了巨大变化——我现在是个公众人物了。但说到底，我还是那个以前的宇航员，没什么不同。

So you know on a Saturday morning when previously nobody would have known who I was or cared so suddenly I realized that there was a big change in my life because I was now a public person and you know I'm no different astronaut from before I became an astronaut.

我照样会像别人一样，偶尔在冰面上滑倒。

I still slip on the ice just like everybody does once in a while.

人们会说：‘嘿，你是宇航员啊，怎么也会摔跤？’

People say hey you're an astronaut you fall on the ice.

没错，我确实会摔，但你得学会接受自己是个公众人物。当宇航员和当政治家，虽然都是公众身份，但区别很大：当宇航员时，大家通常喜欢你，因为这个职业本身就很吸引人，也不具争议性；可一旦进入政界，你就得接受一个现实——不是每个人都会认同你的每一个决定。这确实是个重大抉择。我之所以选择从政，是因为我本身是工程师出身，而我们国会里懂技术的人实在太少了。我觉得自己能带来一些别人欠缺的视角，现在回头看，我很庆幸当初做了这个决定。

Well yes I do and so you have to get used to being a public person but the big difference between becoming a politician from being an astronaut is yes you're public in both but in one case people generally like you as an astronaut because you are in a profession that is of interest to people, it's not controversial, but when you go into politics you have to accept the fact that you are going to do something where not everybody's going to agree with everything you do and so that's a big decision and, the reason that I did go into politics was because I'm an engineer by background, there are not very many technical people in the House of Commons of our country and I thought, I could bring a dimension that is perhaps missing and I'm delighted that I made that decision.

我第一次参选输了，输掉当然不容易，但我没放弃，到现在已经干了八年。

The first time I ran I lost, which is it's not easy to to lose, but I stuck with it and now I've been at it for for eight years.

我想再多了解一些你当议员的经历，不过首先，2017年‘自由派’到底意味着什么？

I wanna go into a little bit more about your experience as an MP, but first, what does it mean to be liberal in 2017?

我想再补充一点，从我观察来看，加拿大的人口结构似乎正在发生变化。

And I I wanna contextualize that with it seems to me that the demographic in Canada anecdotally from my point of view is changing.

大多数人其实属于中间派，我说的是一种红蓝混合的状态。

Most people tend to be purple, I would say, which is a mixture of kind of red and blue.

他们可能在社会议题上自由派，但在财政上却偏向保守。

They might be socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

有了这个背景，你能跟我聊聊，2017年当一个自由派意味着什么吗？

And and just with that backdrop, can you speak to me about what it means to be a liberal in 2017?

是的，自由派并没有一个狭隘的定义，其实范围很广，你刚才说的中间派就对了。

Yes and liberals, it's we're not narrowly defined, there is quite a spectrum, you said purple.

有那种蓝色自由派，也就是财政上比较传统保守，但所有自由派都有一份社会关怀的底色。

There are blue liberals, in other words they are if you like more traditional conservative fiscally but all Liberals do have that social side to them.

所以他们要么偏左一点，要么在中间，要么稍微偏右一点。

So they're either going to be a little bit of left of centre or in the middle or a little bit right of centre.

我们党一直以来都是围绕着中间立场摇摆的。

So we have always been a party that oscillates about the centre.

我觉得更重要的是，今天自由派的含义——我们的总理也说过——就是在保护主义抬头的时候，依然坚持对世界开放。

I think more importantly today, and I think our Prime Minister has articulated it, being a Liberal here in Canada is wanting to be open on the world at a time when we see protectionism coming in.

我们已经看到，世界上有些国家的政治中出现了民粹主义和本土主义这样的趋势。

We've seen some evidence of that in the world where people talk about terms like populism and nativism coming into the politics of governments in certain countries.

加拿大希望在贸易和吸引移民方面继续保持开放，这一点在其他许多国家都在转向的时候，我们不会改变。

We in Canada want to remain open to the world as far as trade is concerned, far as bringing immigrants into our country, so no change from that point of view at a time when many other countries are changing.

在我看来，这比什么都更能定义什么是自由主义者。

So I think that to me more than anything means being a liberal.

我们能聊聊你的经历吗？

Can we dive into your experience?

你刚当选议员时是反对派影子部长，现在成了部长，两边都经历过。

So when you first became an MP, you were a critic and now you're a minister, so you've seen both sides of this.

你能跟我们说说，从外面看不到的那些细节吗？比如执政和在野时，运作方式有什么不同？

Can you walk us through some of the nuances and differences that we wouldn't see from the outside between running and operating government in the sense versus critiquing?

两者都很重要。

Both have an important role.

我在反对派待了七年，那段时间充分学会了如何做好反对派的工作。反对派的责任就是监督政府，督促他们兑现承诺，确保他们做的每件事都是为了加拿大好。

I was on the opposition, in the opposition for seven years, I had lots of of time to learn how to be in the opposition and of course the opposition is trying to hold the government their feet to the fire hold them to the promises that they made and to make sure that they are doing what is right for Canada.

当然，当我还在反对党时，执政的是保守党，我们反对党这边有自由党、新民主党、绿党，还有魁北克集团，每个党都尽力监督政府，希望他们能按照我们政党的价值观行事。

Of course opposition parties whether during the time that I was in opposition it was a conservative government so we in opposition were either Liberals or NDP or Green or or Block and we each try to hold the government accountable, so that they would hopefully do things in accordance with the values of our party.

但真正能做决定的，只有当你是执政党时才行。

But ultimately it is only when you are government that you get to make the decisions.

我现在明白了，因为我当了整整一年的加拿大内阁部长，确实做了不少决定。

And the decisions now I know that because I've been a minister for a year in the government of Canada and I've to had make decisions.

我在议会提出的法案，直接影响了你和其他人，这就是当执政党的责任。

I proposed bills in Parliament that have an influence and an effect on you and others and that is what comes with being in the government.

当你在执政时，你对自己的行为负有直接责任，而在反对党时则没有这种压力。

You are accountable for what you do in a way that you are not when you're in opposition.

所以我们做决定，就必须承担后果。如果三年后加拿大人觉得我们没做好，他们有权选别人来取代我们。

So we make decisions and we must live with the consequences and if Canadians decide three years from now that we didn't do a good job they have the right to elect somebody else.

这就是反对党和执政党之间最大的区别。

So that's the big difference between being in opposition and being in government.

当了执政党，你才能真正做出决定，这些决定会塑造我们国家的未来——无论好坏。

In government you actually make the decisions that shape for better for worse the future of our country.

七年在野期间，我学到了很多东西，因为第一天走进下议院是不可能立刻知道怎么当议员的，这需要时间慢慢积累。现在七年过去了，能进入政府工作，我感到非常欣慰。

And I'm delighted after seven years in opposition where I think I learned my craft because you can't walk into the House of Commons on day one and know how to be an MP, it does take a while to learn how to be one and but now I have to say after seven years it's a pleasure to be in government.

你觉得当反对党影子部长的经历让你成为更好的部长了吗？

Do you think your role as a critic makes you a better minister?

我觉得确实如此。

I think it does.

我曾经负责科技、工业、外交事务，还短暂管过自然资源，为了能提出有深度的问题、发表有见地的演讲，判断政府有没有值得批评的地方，我不得不去深入了解这些领域。

I would say that I was critic for science and technology, for industry, foreign affairs at one time short time natural resources so I had to learn about those things in order to be able to ask intelligent questions, make intelligent speeches and find whether or not there was reason to criticize the government.

所以，当影子部长是一段非常宝贵的经历，因为你被正式赋予了跟进某个政策领域的工作职责。没错，我很享受那段时光。

So yes it is a valuable valuable experience being a critic and because you are the person who is officially supposed to take care of a particular file and so yes I've enjoyed being a critic.

交通部我之前没管过，完全是重新开始学，但说实话，当交通部长这份工作特别适合我。

Transport I was never the critic for that's something I had to basically learn from scratch but you know I have to say I love the job of being transport minister it suits me perfectly.

部长的工作真的非常艰难。

Ministers have an incredibly difficult job.

你怎么

How do you

你在这个职位上，抛开整个政府的大背景，单从日常来看，怎么定义成功？

define success for yourself in that particular role, not in the context of the broader government, but day to day?

你怎么知道自己是做得特别出色，而不是仅仅做得不错？

How do you know that you're you're doing exceptional versus kind of just doing good?

我觉得你能从周围的一切中感受到。

I think you get a sense of it from everything that's around you.

媒体，还有反对党，如果你干得不好，他们肯定会批评你。

The media of course in addition to the opposition will criticize you if they think that you're doing a bad job.

你干得不好，可能是因为你提出的法案，或者你处理某个事件的方式，每天都会冒出新的问题。

The bad job may be legislation that you're bringing forward or how you handle a particular event and every single day of the week there will be a particular issue that will come up.

这本来就是政府工作的常态。

That's just the nature of government.

交通领域涉及的问题太多了，你能在公众那里感受到他们是否支持你，觉得你干得还行——当然不是人人都同意你，但只要大多数人觉得你称职，你就能感觉到。

There are a huge number of issues related to transport and you get a sense out there in the public whether people are with you and think that you're doing a reasonable job and that doesn't mean everybody's going to agree with you but if most people, feel that you're doing, your job, you get a sense of whether they believe that you're a competent minister.

这很难具体说清，但你就是能感受到，因为你总会看到有人批评你，或者当面指出你的问题，也会看到有人夸你决策正确。你得自己去解读这些声音，也得对自己诚实，不能只挑好听的信，还得记住，所有意见都得认真对待。你终究能感觉到自己干得怎么样，当然，到了选举的时候，人们会以最直接的方式告诉你，他们到底支持不支持你。

It's just hard to define but it is something that, that you get a sense of because you're going to read things where people will criticize you or tell you to your face and you're going to read things where people tell you that you've made the right decision and you've got to interpret all of that and you've got to be honest with yourself you can't just choose to believe the good stuff you've got to also remember that you've got to take everybody's opinion into account but you get a sense of whether you're doing it and of course ultimately when elections come around you find out in a very brutal way whether people support you or not.

作为普通公民，我们该怎么评判一位部长的履职表现呢？

How are we supposed to judge as citizens the role of a minister?

其实主要是看我们实际做了什么，举个例子，我最近推出了一份未来十五年的交通愿景，叫‘2030交通规划’，里面明确列出了我们未来要推进的几项重点工作，内容相当丰富。

Well based based on what we do for example we let me give you an example I have come out recently with a what's called a vision for transport for the next fifteen years it's called Transportation 2030 and in there I say we're going to do the following things as we move into the future and there are a whole bunch of elements.

比如说，我提出要为航空旅客制定一套权利保障体系，也就是大家常说的‘旅客权利法案’。

To give you an example I've said that we will come up with what people often call a bill of rights for air travelers.

举个例子，如果因为航班超售，你被强制拒载——这种情况你们有没有遇到过？

We call it a rights regime and this is a regime by which if you are kicked off a flight because they've over booked has this happened to any of you?

我想在座的几位，包括我自己，都经历过。

I think a few of you including myself.

不过您可是部长，对吧？

Probably you're a minister though right?

是啊。

Yet.

或者你的行李丢了、损坏了，又或者你在停机坪上等了四个小时，最后航班还是被取消了。

Or your baggage has been lost or damaged or you've sat on the tarmac for four hours and then the plane flight has been cancelled.

我们每个人都可能在旅行时遇到过各种烦心事，所以我们决定推出一套统一的措施，适用于所有航空公司，明确告诉他们：如果你没有履行对购票乘客的某些义务，就会有相应的后果。

We all have, I think if we travel, experienced frustrations and we said we're going to put in place a set of measures uniform that will apply to all airlines that will be in a sense a clear indication to the airlines that if you do not fulfill certain obligations to the passengers to whom you've sold tickets there will be consequences.

这是一方面。

So that's something.

当然，最终出台的具体内容可能会有人提出不同意见，我们得把这些细节慢慢整合起来。

Now people may argue with the details of what eventually comes out, we have to put this together.

有人会支持，也有人会反对。

Some people may like it, some people may not like it.

我举的这个例子，我觉得大多数人会认同，但其他一些内容可能会引发更多争议。

I gave you an example where I think most people would like it but there are other things that can be sometimes, more controversial.

这只是其中一个例子，类似的情况还有很多，你可能会因为某件事得到好评，却因为另一件事招来不满。

So that's just one example and there's a host of them and so you'll get positive feedback from one person on one thing but they'll really not like something else.

不可能人人都同意你做的每一件事，这本来就是这份工作的一部分。

Not everybody's going to agree with you on everything you do and that's that's part of the job.

说到这个，你身边的人各有各的考量，有些人的目标和你并不一致。

Speaking of that, you're surrounded by people who have different different incentives, and some of those incentives don't align with you.

这些人向你传递的信息，正是你做决策所依赖的。

And those people are passing you information that you need to make decisions on.

你该怎么判断这些信息的可靠性，又该怎么验证它呢？

How do you go about ascertaining the validity of the information you're making the decisions on and testing it?

这些信息经过太多层过滤，太多人参与，每个人都有不同的政治立场。

It's been through so many filters and so many people with so many different political agendas.

这确实是个很大的挑战。

And that's very challenging thing.

我以工程师的身份为傲，我的教育背景和经历都让我在做研究时格外严谨，因为一旦我站在众人面前说‘这是发生的事’或‘根据我的知识，我们应该这么做’，结果却错了，那太丢脸了。

I pride myself as an engineer, that's my that's my education, that's my background in being very rigorous in doing my research because if I going to get out in front of a bunch of people and say this is what happened or this is based on my knowledge this is what we're going to do and I'm wrong.

那种情况我绝对不想发生。

It's very embarrassing and it's something that I really don't want happening.

所以对我来说，面对来自同事的各种输入，必须有一套极其严谨的流程，确保你接收到的信息准确无误，而且你自己真正信得过。

So to me there is a very rigorous process when you get all these inputs from the people that you work with, there's a very rigorous process of making sure that the information that you have received is correct and that you're comfortable with that information.

我这个人做事靠逻辑，很多人管我叫‘先生’。

So I'm a person who is driven by logic, lot of people call me Mr.

有人叫我史波克，因为我坚信交通领域的很多决策都必须建立在严谨的科学证据和逻辑基础上，我就是这么做事的，我觉得这对我很有帮助。

Spock sometimes because I really do believe that a lot of decisions in the field of transport need to be based on rigorous scientific evidence, logic and that's how I approach it and I think that helps me.

我的整个工程背景你懂的，如果有工程师在场，一旦成为专业工程师，你就会有印章，要为自己的工作签字负责，一旦出错，后果可能很严重。

Think my whole background in engineering as you know if there are any engineers here once you become a professional engineer you have a seal and you certify your work and if you're wrong it can have serious consequences.

如果你盖桥、建房或者设计电路，但没做好，那后果不堪设想。

If you build bridges or houses or electrical circuits and you don't do it properly, there are serious consequences.

所以，认真做足功课是一种道德责任，我也努力把这种态度带入政治领域。

So it's an ethical thing in terms of doing your homework properly and I try to bring that to politics.

你觉得这种标准也该适用于政治吗？

Do you think that that should apply to politics as well?

你觉得除了可能丢工作之外，是不是还该有法律责任？比如工程师签字确认的项目出了问题，他得担责，你觉得这种责任该不该延伸到政界？

Do you think that there should be not only consequences whereby you can lose your job, but if you're an engineer and you sign off on something there's liability as well, do you think that that transfers over?

那要是政客玩忽职守呢？

Well a politician who's negligent?

作为工程师，如果你签字认证的东西有缺陷，确实可能引发非常严重的后果。

Certainly as an engineer if you certify something and there's a flaw in it, it can lead to some very serious consequences.

作为政治家，你的表现通常会在选举时接受检验，也可能在政府任期中间被评估。比如，如果我的总理觉得我工作不力，他可以把我调离职位，安排我去当后排议员；如果情况特别严重——这里我们已经触及道德层面了——还有一种机制，可以把你从党团中除名。一旦被开除出自由党党团，你就不再是自由党议员，而成为独立议员。

As a politician typically your judgment comes at election time or it can come within the cycle of a government for example if my Prime Minister thinks that I'm not doing a good job he can remove me from that and he can send me to the back benches or if it's a really serious thing and here we're getting into things that are in ethical issues, you can even there is a process by which you can be removed from what we call the caucus which is you're removed from the liberal caucus you can no longer be a liberal MP you become an independent.

对。

Right.

所以，政治领域也有多种问责机制。

So there are different measures that of accountability that you're subjected to.

咱们能稍微深入聊一下技术细节吗？

Can we geek out for a second?

当然可以。

Sure.

我想聊聊自动驾驶汽车。

I want to talk about self driving cars.

好的。

Yes.

这是目前最前沿的

Which is top

让每个人都安心。

of mind for everybody.

你如何看待未来十年，直到2030年，这项技术会如何发展？这和你的愿景一致吗？

How do you see this playing out over the next ten or up to 2030 to in line with your vision?

这项技术正在扑面而来，毫无疑问，我希望加拿大不要只是跟在别人后面。

It's coming at us, there's no question and I would like Canada to be not just a follower.

归根结底，这主要是个信息技术的挑战，加拿大拥有大量人才，完全有能力参与其中。我们不希望只是追赶别人，而是有机会引领这场变革——在自动驾驶车辆的研发上，在智能交通系统的建设上，在优化车与车、车与基础设施之间的通信上，在开发能帮助缓解城市拥堵的软件上，加拿大都能走在前列。

More than anything it's an IT challenge and I think that Canada has a huge amount of talent to bring to it but we don't want to be playing catch up and following everybody else so I think there's a chance for Canada to lead, in this country, with the development of automated vehicles, leading in terms of intelligent transportation systems, in developing the optimum V2V and V2I communications, in helping to develop the software that will you know help us to minimize congestion, in our cities.

加拿大能做的还有很多，甚至可以挑战一些只有像加拿大这样的国家才面临的特殊难题，比如冰雪覆盖的道路，这和加州那种平坦舒适的路况可大不一样。

There's a huge amount that Canada can do and perhaps also take on a challenge which is particular to countries like Canada to get covered with snow and ice, which can be quite different from driving on a nice Californian road.

在交通领域，我们在蒙特利尔以北的布莱斯维尔设有一个测试设施。之前有一组三辆18轮卡车组成的车队，它们以每小时85公里的速度，保持完美间距行驶，后面的两辆车完全跟随第一辆，第三辆紧跟第二辆。

So there are some things that Canada can do at the transportation, in the transport Canada we have a facility up in Blaise Ville just North of Montreal, the other guy was in a convoy of three, 18 wheelers and they were all going at 85 kilometers perfectly spaced from each other the second and the third were just queuing off the first of the the first truck and the second off, the third off, the second.

司机唯一要做的就是控制方向盘，因为道路是倾斜设计的，其他所有操作都由系统自动完成。

The only thing the driver was doing was steering because we were in banked courses but the rest was all being controlled.

这是车联网技术的一个发展方向，虽然目前还在试验场里，但这类技术，我们加拿大完全有能力推进——无论是大学的研究，还是各省正在推动的项目，都有很大的空间。

Well that's an area of development and connected vehicles, it's on a test track, but these kinds of things are things that we can do here in Canada as well as what is happening in our universities and the initiatives that the provinces are taking as well.

我觉得我们能做出贡献。

I think we can make a contribution.

说实话，作为加拿大交通部，我们作为监管方，现在还在追赶技术的发展。

To be perfectly honest with you, as Transport Canada, we're the regulator, we're playing catch up with the technology.

技术进步太快了，我们得为所有交通方式制定法规，同时要聪明地走在前沿，又不能给创新者设置太多监管障碍，好让他们能顺利开发这些技术。

It's evolving so quickly that we're trying to, you know, put in place, we have to put regulations in place for all transportation modes and we are trying to intelligently stay ahead of the curve and we're also trying intelligently not to put too many obstacles in the way regulatory obstacles in the way of the innovators, so that they can develop these technologies.

所以我们希望参与其中，提供支持。

So we want to help, to be part of it.

当然，另一个重点是我和美国的交通部长保持密切合作。

And of course the other aspect is that I work very closely with my counterpart in The United States who is the Secretary of Transport.

现任部长是赵小兰，我会和她紧密配合，确保我们的法规相互协调，毕竟每天都有大量加拿大人往返美加边境。

Of course it's a new one now her name is Elaine Chao and I will be working very closely with her to make sure that harmonize our regulations because obviously a lot of Canadians cross the border every day.

这些才是关键所在，而且变革来得比任何人想象的都快。

So those are the things that that are important and it's coming at us faster than I think anybody.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我想谈谈这件事带来的至少三个第二层影响。

I want to talk about at least three specific kind of second order impacts of that.

一个是，你觉得自动驾驶汽车会对道路等基础设施投资产生什么影响？

One is how do how do you perceive that self driving cars will affect our investment in infrastructure such as roads?

既然事故减少了，车辆可以更紧密地行驶，这会不会让我们建的路变窄？

Will it change the size of the roads that we build because now we can put cars closer together with fewer accidents?

这种情况会怎么发展呢？

How how does that play out?

我觉得还有很多不确定的地方。

I think there are still a lot of unknowns.

最终路上的车会不会变少？

Are we going to end up having less cars on the road to begin with?

有人觉得车会变少，也有人认为车的数量不会减少。

That is a question that some people say yes we will have less cars, other people say we're going to have just as many cars.

至于基础设施会怎么变化，现在还很难说清楚。

I think that it's probably too early to know exactly how it's going to evolve in terms of infrastructure.

我们当然需要智能的基础设施，为车辆提供所有必要信息，帮助它们以最智能、最经济的方式从A点到B点，同时尽量减少对环境的破坏，这些都息息相关。

We need certainly the smart intelligent infrastructure that's going to provide all the necessary information to the vehicles to help them to optimally get from A to B in the most intelligent and cost effective way, the least damaging to the environment, those things are all part of it.

但说到道路会不会变少，我们同时也在大力推动公共交通，你知道我们国家就是这样。长远来看，经过相当长一段时间，我们很可能会根据新的标准重新规划城市。

But in terms of whether we end up having less roads, we're also at the same time trying to push for more public transit as you know in our country, so we could very well end up I think in the long run perhaps over a long period of time redeveloping our cities according to different criteria.

我们都清楚，现在的城市全是围绕汽车设计的，这是不争的事实，也因此我们付出了沉重代价——交通拥堵、空气污染等等。很多人认为，在规划新城市时，我们绝不能再犯同样的错误。

We all know that our cities have all been built around cars, that's a truism, and as a result of that we've paid some important prices with respect to that congestion, pollution, those kinds of things and I think a lot of thinking is that we should try to make sure that we don't make those new mistakes as we design new cities.

现有的城市我们只能先保留，但未来新建的大学校园，我们完全可以利用现在正在发展的技术，做出更明智的规划。

We're stuck with the ones we have at the moment, but we can, I intelligently plan universities in the future with the technology that is coming now?

那你认为会发生什么？

And what what do you think will happen?

我总觉得，卡车司机可能是加拿大人数最多的职业之一，光是从业人数就非常惊人。

Like it strikes me that truck drivers is probably one of the number one professions in Canada based on the number sheer number of people doing it.

我觉得，未来五到十年内，这些司机很可能全部失业，这并不是没有可能，甚至相当合理。

It it it seems possible or even reasonable that within five to ten years, all of those people could be out of jobs.

是的。

Yes.

他们也担心这个问题，你说得对，出租车司机就是另一个例子。很多职业可能会因为自动驾驶和智能交通系统而消失，这是社会演进的一部分，制造业也一样，机器人正越来越多地取代传统的体力劳动。

And they're worried about it too, you're quite right, there are a lot of taxi drivers, another example, so there are professions that that could as a result of automated vehicles and intelligent transportation systems lose their jobs and that's part of the evolution of a society and the same applies in the manufacturing sector where robotics is increasingly replacing the traditional manual labor that's involved there.

所以会有巨大的变化，我觉得我们的教育体系也在努力跟上。

So there are going to be big changes and I think again there our education system is playing catch up as well.

我觉得我们现在并没有走在趋势前面，而是在拼命追赶，因为我觉得这些变化会来得很快。

I don't think that I don't think that we're riding the wave at the moment, I think we're trying to play catch up there because I think it's going to happen quickly.

我想谈的第三个二级影响是，如果汽车主要依赖软件，并且能彼此通信，那么网络安全在这个过程中扮演什么角色？政府对加拿大人在这个领域又该承担什么责任？

And the third kind of second order impact there I want to talk about is if the if the cars become primarily based on software and they can interact with each other, what role does cyber security play in that and what role does the government play for Canadians in in that space?

网络安全非常重要，因为我们绝对不希望出现有人通过黑客手段操控车辆行驶的情况。

Well cyber cyber security is very important because obviously we do not want to have a situation where there are there's a capacity from a hacking point of view to influence how a is driving itself.

如果车辆之间、车与基础设施之间是协同工作的，而有人故意破坏这种系统，就可能引发非常严重的后果，尤其是在高速公路上，车辆彼此紧贴行驶时。所以网络安全是其中一大挑战。此外还有不少新问题，比如事故发生时责任怎么划分？保险怎么买？保险公司又该如何为自动驾驶车辆定价？

If it's based on this on this system of V to V and V to I and it's working harmoniously and you disrupt that intentionally then you can lead to some some pretty catastrophic results especially if cars are on a highway and they're all driving close to each other so cyber security is part of the challenge that's involved there and then there are interesting questions such as if an accident does occur whose fault is it and how does one purchase insurance, how will insurance companies price the insurance for automated vehicles.

还有很多新问题需要解决。

There are lots of new issues that have to be dealt with.

在进入观众提问之前，我还有两个问题。

Two questions just before we go to the audience questions here.

我们之前在场时，很多人问到一个问题：为什么蒙特利尔和多伦多之间没有高铁？

One question that came up a lot just as we were in here before is why don't we have a high speed rail between Montreal and Toronto?

请在渥太华停靠。

Stopping in Ottawa, please.

大约一年前，维亚铁路向加拿大政府提交了一个提案，叫作高频铁路，不是高速，而是高频——意思是蒙特利尔和渥太华之间，每天的列车从六班增加到十二班。

So via rail came forward with a proposal, about a year ago to the government of Canada and it's called high frequency rail not high speed but high frequency and high frequency means that instead of six trains a day between Montreal and Ottawa there could be 12.

光是提供更多发车时间选择，让人更愿意坐火车而不是开车，就已经能带来改变。

That in itself offering people more hours of choice in terms of taking the train versus the car can make a difference.

我每周都会往返于蒙特利尔和渥太华之间坐火车。

I take the train by the way between Montreal and Ottawa Montreal and Ottawa every week in both directions.

但还有另一个关键点：得建专用轨道。因为维亚铁路只拥有自己线路的3%，其余的都要向加拿大国家铁路和加拿大太平洋铁路租用。

But there's also another part to it and that is converting to dedicated rail because Via Rail only owns 3% of its track.

只要货运列车经过，他们就得停下来让行。

It rents the rest from CN and CP and it has to stop when there's a freight train that goes by.

你要是坐过这趟火车，肯定听过广播说：各位乘客，现在停车是正常程序，要让加拿大国家铁路的货运列车先行。

If you've taken the train you've probably heard the message, ladies and gentlemen we're stopping this is a normal procedure to let the freight CN go by.

如果有专属轨道，列车速度就能提升，不是高铁，但能从每小时110公里提高到170公里。

So the fact of having dedicated rail will allow a faster train, not high speed, but instead of 110 kilometers an hour it can go at 170 kilometers an hour on its own dedicated track.

这样能缩短行程时间，也给乘客更多选择。

So shorten the time and it will offer people more choices.

他们最初向联邦政府提出了在蒙特利尔、渥太华和多伦多这一繁忙走廊的方案，我们目前正在研究这个项目。

They've proposed this to the federal government initially in the Montreal Ottawa Toronto busy corridor and we are studying this at the moment.

事实上，我们已经在预算中拨出了300万美元用于这项研究。

In fact we put $3,000,000 in the budget to study it.

我们现在关注的是，他们的商业论证是否扎实。

So the things we're looking at is is their business case solid.

他们预测有多少人会放弃开车转乘火车，这些数据有没有可靠的分析依据。

When they project how many passengers will leave their cars behind and take the train are those based on solid if you like analysis.

我们正在评估这些方面，所以这个项目是有可能实现的，目前我们还在研究中，同时也在考察魁北克到蒙特利尔，以及多伦多到温莎的线路。不过你也应该知道，安大略省政府正在研究温莎到多伦多之间的高铁方案。

So those are things that we're looking at so that is something that could happen we're in the middle of looking at it and we're also looking at Quebec to Montreal and Toronto to Windsor although the Ontario government is also you should know looking at a high speed train proposal between Windsor and Toronto.

这目前是省政府正在推进的一个项目。

That's a provincial initiative underway at the moment.

在去回答观众提问之前，最后一个问题：有没有什么你觉得是对的，但大多数

And last question before we go to the audience for questions, something that you believe to be true that most

你的部长们都会反对的观点？

of your ministers would disagree with you on?

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

小心点。

Take care.

其实我们确实去过月球。

Well, that we actually did go to the moon.

不是的。

No.

我开玩笑呢。

I'm joking.

我开玩笑，开玩笑。

I'm joking, joking.

我就是开玩笑的。

I'm I'm joking.

逗你呢。

Joking.

我告诉同事们我们真的登过月球，他们都信我。

My colleagues believe me when I tell them that we did go to the moon.

他们只是在礼貌地附和。

They're just being polite.

他们只是在礼貌地附和。

They're just being polite.

在有不同意见的地方，我得好好想想。但就像任何有不同观点的健康团体一样，大家看法不可能完全一致。而且既然这会被记录下来，我有点犹豫要不要说。

Where I have a difference of opinion I'd have to give it some some thought but as with any healthy group of people with different ideas we don't all see everything the same way and since this is going to be registered I'm a little bit hesitant to tell you something.

我相信我是对的，当然我知道我没错，但全世界都觉得我们错了。

I believe that and of course I know I'm right and the rest of the world thinks we're wrong about it.

抱歉刚才绕开了你的问题。

So sorry for skirting your question there.

没关系。

No problem.

我们可以接受观众的提问。

We can take questions from the audience.

飞机必须留出一定的腿部和肘部空间，这是出于安全考虑，万一需要紧急疏散，这是加拿大运输部的规定。

Airplanes have to provide a certain legroom elbow room spacing for safety reasons in case you have to evacuate the airplane quickly and that is a Transport Canada requirement.

我们现在设定的是最低标准。

Now we establish minimums.

如果一家航空公司按最低标准安排座位，而另一家提供更宽敞的空间，你肯定会选更宽敞的那家。

If an airplane uses those minimums versus another airline that gives you more room, you're going to want to go with the other one, if it gives you more room.

如果他们把乘客挤得像沙丁鱼罐头一样，确实有失去客户的风险，但唯一强制性的要求是安全底线，其他都由航空公司自己决定。

So they are taking a chance if they really stick you together like sardines of losing business, but the only driver there is that there is a minimum with respect to safety but the rest is up to the airlines.

我得承认，我对杰里米·里夫金并不了解，只是听过这个名字，如果刚才听起来像在引用他，那纯属巧合。

Question I have to admit I'm not an expert on Jeremy Rifkin I've heard the name so if I if I sounded like I was channeling him it was a coincidence.

我认为每个欧洲国家都会根据自己的地理条件和人口密度，找到适合自己的解决方案。

I think that every Europe has its own solutions based on its geography and its densities.

我觉得我们可能会有一些相似之处，但更可能跟美国类似，因为我们跟他们互动非常多，而且在很多方面都有共同利益去协调标准，毕竟我们的人员和货物可以自由跨境流动。

I think we will probably have some similarities but I think we'll probably be more like The United States because we do interact with them a huge amount and and we have mutual reasons to harmonize, in terms of how we develop certain things because we freely flow across each other's borders.

事实上，没多少人知道，两国之间专门有个机构负责监管标准的协调工作。

In fact, I not very many people know about it but there is specific body that focuses on regulatory harmonization between the two countries.

你想想，我们每天跟美国的贸易额超过20亿美元，这个数字我得准确说一下。

Imagine that you know we do over 2,000,000,000 daily in trade with The United States and that's about So I should quote.

是的，这确实是个大事。

Yes and it I mean it's a big it's a big deal.

火车和卡车来回穿梭于两国边境，船只也在五大湖沿岸的多个州之间航行。

So trains and trucks cross each other's borders and ships go into the many states that are in on the Great Lakes.

如果我们一过边境，就得面对一套完全不同的安全和其他规定，那根本行不通，太荒唐了。

If we arrived at the border and there was a different set of regulations for safety and other factors as soon as you cross that border, it would be untenable, it would be ridiculous.

所以我们运营的飞机搭载乘客，采用相近的做法对我们有利。

So we and our airplanes carry passengers, so it's in our interest to take similar approaches.

所以我觉得我们大概会走这条路，而且地理条件也差不多，这大概就是我们的思路。

So I think we're going to probably and they have similar geographies as well, so I think that's kind of the approach.

顺便说一下，今年九月智能交通系统世界论坛将在蒙特利尔举办，由美国智能交通协会和加拿大智能交通协会共同主办。

By the way, the Intelligent Transportation System World Forum is happening here in Montreal this September and it's done by ITS America and ITS Canada.

请大家尽量把问题控制在一个，而且简短一点，谢谢。

I'm going to ask everybody just to keep their questions to one and keep them short, please.

我会尽量简短的。

I'll try to be short.

你好。

Hi.

关于交通领域的下一代技术已经开始浮现，比如超级高铁、太空旅行，甚至飞行汽车，这些以前听起来几乎不可能，加拿大现在有什么举措来推动这类创新，再次在交通创新上取得领导地位，就像你提到的加拿大航天领域那样？

Question about generation of transport is starting to show itself, for example, the hyperloop, space travel, even flying cars which seemed almost inconceivable, what is Canada doing to try and spur that kind of innovation and once again capture leadership in transport innovation similar to the Canada arm you spoke about?

没错，关于创新这块，是我的同事纳文德·拜恩斯负责，他隶属创新、科学与经济发展部。

Right, so the innovation part of it is my colleague Navdeep Baines, it's the Ministry of Innovation, Science and Economic Development.

他的职责就是推动创新，那具体是怎么做的呢？

That's his mandate innovation and so how is it done?

就是通过资助有前景的技术和软件开发，帮助我们实现目标，让国家保持竞争力，争取领先。比如在航空航天领域，我们在很多具体技术方向上都是全球领先者。

It's by helping to fund promising technologies that will or software developments that will help us to get there so that we as a country can be competitive, that we can lead and we can for example in the aerospace world we we are a leader in that area in a large number of different specific areas technically.

这是一个成功的案例。

It's an area where it's a success story.

我们也有潜力成为现代交通系统的成功典范。

We'd like to be a success story, we have the potential to be a success story in modern transportation systems.

不管是自动驾驶汽车、车联网，还是无人机这类新兴颠覆性技术，加拿大都有能力走在前列。

Whether it's automated cars or connected vehicles or another area that is also new disruptive technology, UAVs or drones, Canada has the potential to be a leader.

从交通的角度来说，我的工作主要涉及监管和测试方面。

From transport point of view, my job is on the regulatory side of things and the testing side of things.

现在阿尔伯塔省的一个小镇上已经建起了测试设施，可以用来测试无人机技术，我们正在为这类测试提供基础设施支持。

We have there's a now a test facility in Alberta, in a small town where you can test your drone technology so we are providing infrastructure for testing purposes that's part of it.

如果有人在车库里研发无人机，有个好点子想测试，我们可以提供场地，如果项目有前景，创新、科学与经济发展部还会提供资金支持。

Know somebody who has a great idea in developing a drone in their garage needs to go out and test it, we can provide the facility for that and then the funding, if it's a promising idea, may come from innovation science and economic development.

这两个部门紧密合作，才能为这类技术的发展创造良好的环境和支撑条件。

So those two ministries together are key in working together to create the right conditions and support for that kind of technology to be developed.

这个国家有着巨大的潜力。

There is tremendous potential in this country.

我们有一支非常优秀的人才队伍，还有许多受过良好教育、充满创意的人。

We have a very talented workforce and we have great well educated people who have great ideas.

问题从来不是缺乏好点子，而是怎么把这些点子成功推向市场。

That's never a problem great ideas it's successfully taking them through to market.

确实，我们应该为埃隆·马斯克这样的高科技企业提供建设测试设施的支持。

Absolutely we should offer Elon Musk testing facilities for his high-tech.

是的，我同意这个观点，我以前见过他一面，当时我们聊过火箭，现在他已经在做太多其他事情了。

Yeah no I love to go on that I met the guy once and we talked about rockets at the time but now he's on to so many other things.

谢谢。

Thank you.

不客气。

You're welcome.

好的，有一件事是在预算中公布的，准确说是财政部长比尔·莫诺在11月1日的经济声明里提到的，就是对贸易和运输走廊进行投资。

Okay so one of the things that was announced in the budget, actually it was announced in the economic statement of Minister Bill Morneau, our Finance Minister on the November 1, is an investment in what's called trade and transportation corridors.

这笔资金是100亿美元，和我之前提到的所有内容都不重叠，由我负责，将在十一年内投入，目的是提升我们贸易走廊的效率。

And it's a $10,000,000,000 separate from everything else I've said so far and that's going to be under my responsibility and it's $10,000,000,000 over eleven years and it's to make our trade corridors more efficient.

加拿大是个贸易国家。

Canada is a trading nation.

我们每年通过火车和卡车，把数亿吨产品运往国内港口，或者运过边境到美国。

We transport hundreds of millions of tons of products across the country to our ports or we go across the border into The United States on trains and trucks.

我们是个贸易国家。

We are a trading nation.

如果我说到加拿大国家铁路和太平洋铁路，它们每年运输的货物价值高达2800亿美元。

If I talk about CN and CP, they transport about $280,000,000,000 worth of goods per year.

我们把货物运往温哥华港的效率如何，直接影响着经济活力。温哥华港每年处理1.4亿吨货物，发往全球各地。

How well we transport our goods to the Port Of Vancouver, which handles 140,000,000 tons a year and ships out to the rest of the world has a direct effect on our economic vitality.

我本人把运输看作经济的核心领域。如果我们不能高效地把粮食、制成品、集装箱、钾肥、煤炭和木材——这些国际市场需要的产品——及时运出去，客户就会转向别处。

I personally regard transport as an economic portfolio and if we do not efficiently get our grain, our manufactured products, our containers, our potash, our coal, our lumber that the rest of the world wants, if we don't get them efficiently out to their destination, our customers will look elsewhere.

在我看来，这一点很多人没意识到，但高效运输货物，无论是往南到美国，还是往东到欧洲，或者往西到亚洲，对经济健康至关重要。

So that is in my opinion, very people don't appreciate it, but I think a critical part of a healthy economy is how well we move our goods south of the border or out to the Asian continent or east to the European continent.

所以我重点关注这个领域，这100亿美元将帮助我们打通运输系统中那些效率不足的瓶颈。

So I'm focused and that 10,000,000,000 will help us to debottleneck some of the places where our transportation system is not as effective as it needs to be.

这还能有别的可能吗？你能举个例子，说说哪个国家经济稳固却基础设施薄弱的吗？

How could it be otherwise really, like can you give an example of a country that has a solid economy without a solid infrastructure and transportation?

我觉得确实不可能，你说得对，这事儿没别的路可走。不过如果你是个小国，挑战就小多了，尤其要是气候温和的小国，问题更简单。

Well I think it's a no you know I think you're right it couldn't be otherwise but you know if you're if you're a small country your challenge is much smaller, if you're a small country in a temperate climate it's much smaller.

像我们这样，在辽阔的国土上运送如此大量的货物，还要应对有时极端恶劣的天气，真的非常困难。

Moving the amount of product that we move in this country over very large distances in what can sometimes be horrible weather conditions is a very challenging thing.

再看北方，那里的基础设施还很原始，但很多资源都集中在那儿。如果我们能把那里的运输系统效率提上去，对加拿大会有实实在在的好处，这事儿我们非得改进不可。

And if you look at the North where there is only rudimentary infrastructure and where a lot of the resources are located, how well we can make that system efficient can have a definite and important benefit for Canada and that is something that we need to improve.

我们还有时间回答两个问题。

We have time for two more questions.

你刚才提到的，多大程度上是

Just following up what you said, to what degree is

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

这个国家温室气体排放的最大来源，其实是石油和天然气行业。

So the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases in this country is the oil and gas sector.

加拿大温室气体排放的25%来自石油和天然气行业。

25% of our greenhouse gases are the oil and gas sector.

排在第二的是什么？

What comes second?

交通运输。

Transportation.

占23%。

23%.

加拿大产生的温室气体中，有23%来自交通领域，其中80%是汽车和卡车排放的。

23 of the greenhouse gases that are produced by Canada come from the transportation sector and 80% of that is cars and trucks.

如果算上火车、轮船、飞机和非公路车辆，加起来还不到20%。

So if you look at trains, boats and planes and off road vehicles, they're just less than 20%.

汽车和卡车占了八成，我们签署《巴黎协定》时承诺要减少温室气体排放，到2030年，也就是十三年后，要把污染物排放比2005年2月的水平降低30%。

So 80% is cars and trucks and we have made a promise, by signing the Paris Accord, that we're going to reduce our greenhouse gases and with that reduction will also come pollutant reductions by 30% below February '5 levels by 2030, that's in thirteen years.

我们面前的任务很艰巨，必须大力推动转向可再生能源驱动的交通工具。

So we have a tall order in front of us and we have to aggressively move towards vehicles that are on renewable energy sources.

如果交通运输要承担起自己的责任，我们就必须相当积极地转向电动汽车或氢能源汽车。

We have to move towards electric electrical vehicles or hydrogen vehicles in a fairly aggressive way as we move towards, if transportation is going to do its share.

现在，我们正在改善卡车和火车的排放问题。我们刚刚与国际民航组织（ICAO）签署了一项重要的国际条约，旨在从2021年开始减少二氧化碳排放。因为国际航空事务是通过国际民航组织来处理的，毕竟天空是国际共享的，并不只属于加拿大或德国。

Now we are improving truck emissions, we are improving train emissions, we are we just signed with ICAO a very important international treaty with respect to mitigating the production of CO2 starting in 2021 because international air we deal with that through ICAO, through the International Civil Aviation Organization because the skies are international, they're not just Canada's skies and German skies or whatever.

所以我们在这些领域正在取得进展，但我们必须努力确保交通运输业也能在2030年前实现30%的减排目标。

So we are making progress in those areas, but we have to work hard to make sure that transportation is going to also do its share of reducing by 30% by 2030.

最后一个问题。

Last question.

马克，我代表大家非常感谢你过来。

Marc I want to thank you very much on behalf of everybody for coming.

嘿，大家好。

Hey, guys.

我是谢恩。

This is Shane again.

在结束之前，还有几件事要说。

Just a few more things before we wrap up.

节目笔记请访问 farnamstreetblog.com/podcast。

You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com/podcast.

网址是 farnamstreetblog.com/podcast。

That's farnamstreetblog.com/podcast.

那里还能找到如何获取文字稿的信息。

You can also find information there on how to get a transcript.

如果你想每周收到我发的邮件，里面全是各种养脑的内容，就去 farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter 订阅吧。

And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter.

这些都是我每周在网上发现、读过并分享给身边朋友的好东西，包括我在看的书，还有很多其他内容。

This is all the good stuff I found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more.

谢谢收听。

Thank you for listening.