第八十四期：基于证据的读写教学法——与多米尼克·怀斯和夏洛特·哈金的访谈

欢迎收听《学习科学家》播客，这是一档面向教师、学生和家长的播客，内容围绕基于证据的教学与学习实践。

Welcome to The Learning Scientist Podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence based practice and learning.

你好，欢迎收听《学习科学家》播客。

Hello, and welcome to the Learning Scientist Podcast.

我叫卡罗琳娜·库珀·特策尔博士，是格拉斯哥大学心理学系的高级讲师。

My name is doctor Carolina Kuper Tetzel, and I'm a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Glasgow.

在今天的播客中，我将与一本全新著作《平衡之道：基于证据的语音阅读与写作教学法》的作者多米尼克·怀斯和夏洛特·哈克进行对话。

In today's podcast, I am talking to the authors of the brand new book, The Balancing Act, an Evidence Based Approach to Teaching Phonics Reading and Writing, Dominic Wyse and Charlotte Hacking.

我们将探讨书中以研究为依据、指导学生阅读与写作的教学章节，并介绍多种教学支持工具，包括教案——我特别期待深入探讨这些内容。

We will explore chapters of the book that takes a research informed approach to teaching pupils how to read and write and provides various scaffolding for teaching practice, including lesson plans, which I'm particularly excited to dive into.

欢迎多米尼克和夏洛特。

Welcome, Dominic and Charlotte.

你们能自我介绍一下，并谈谈你们的背景以及对这个话题的兴趣吗？

Can you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about your background and your interest in this topic?

好的，嗨，非常感谢你们的邀请。

Yes, hi, thanks very much for inviting us.

我是多米尼克·怀斯。

I'm Dominic Wyse.

我是伦敦大学学院教育学院幼儿与小学教育教授，同时也是海伦·哈姆林教学法中心的创始主任，该中心致力于改善幼儿教学法。

I'm a professor of early childhood and primary education at the Institute of Education at University College London, and I'm the founding director of the Helen Hamlin Centre for Pedagogy, a research centre devoted to improving pedagogy for young children.

我在阅读与写作教学方面的背景由来已久。

My background in the teaching of reading and writing is long standing.

因此，二十多年来，我一直在研究阅读与写作的教学。

And so for more than twenty five years, I've been researching the teaching of reading and writing.

基于这样长期的经验，同时又非常渴望创造一些新的东西，我才与夏洛特合作，或许这就是我们今天在这里的原因。

And so it was with, you know, a long track record, but also really eager to create something new that, I got together with Charlotte and hence probably we're here today.

我是夏洛特·哈克宁，我是小学识字中心（简称CLP）的学习与项目总监，二十多年来，我一直在小学教育领域工作，担任过课堂教师、学校管理者和教师培训师。

And I'm Charlotte Hacking, I'm the Learning and Programme Director at the Centre for Literacy in Primary Education or CLP as it's more widely known and for more than twenty five years I've been involved in primary education as a teacher in the classroom, as a leader in schools and as a teacher trainer.

虽然我教过小学各个阶段，但我专攻幼儿阶段和关键阶段一，尤其专注于早期识字教学中最有效的方法。

Although I've taught across primary, I've specialised in early years in key stage one, particularly in the most effective practice for the teaching of early literacy.

我在‘字母与声音’项目启动之初就在地方教育部门工作，此后一直与学校合作，推动语音、阅读与写作的有效教学。

I worked in a local authority at the dawn of the letters and sounds rollout and have worked with schools on the effective teaching of phonics reading and writing since.

好的，非常感谢。

Okay, thank you so much.

感谢您今天参加我们的播客。

And thank you for joining our podcast today.

您能和我们分享一下最初写这本书的动机吗？

Can you share with us your motivation to write this book in the first place?

您的书有什么独特之处？目标读者是谁？

What makes your book unique and what is the target audience for your book?

对我而言，其中一个动机源于我与另一位同事艾丽丝·布拉德伯里合作开展的一项研究，这项研究形成了一篇论文，引起了国内外媒体的广泛关注。

For me, one of the motivations came out of some research that I did with another colleague, Alice Bradbury, that resulted in a research paper that seemed to attract a lot of attention in the media nationally and internationally.

当然，研究论文本身并不适合作为对政策、实践、研究和理论进行深入贡献的载体。

Now, of course, a research paper is not the right vehicle, if you like, to make an extended contribution to policy practice research and theory.

因此，我萌生了写一本书的想法，但我希望它能成为一本与众不同的书。

And so I had the idea of writing a book, but I wanted it to be a different book.

我希望它能为这些长期存在的争论带来新的视角。

I wanted it to offer something new to these long standing debates.

特别是，我希望能将研究与典范实践真正地融合在一起。

And in particular, I wanted it to be a proper integration of both research and exemplary practice.

因此，这种融合的理念促使我联系了夏洛特，我了解她的工作，我们之前也见过几次，我问她是否愿意一起探讨一个提案。

And so that notion of integration meant that I reached out to Charlotte, who I knew of her work and we'd met a few times and asked her if she would be interested in thinking together about a proposal.

最终，一旦提案获得通过，我们确实写成了这本书。

And then finally, once the proposal got accepted, we did indeed write the book.

夏洛特，希望我对咱们如何合作的总结还算合理。

Charlotte, hope that's a reasonable summary of how we came together.

是的，就我的动机而言，我一直以来所做一切的核心都是孩子们。

Yeah, in terms of my motivation, my motivation, which is at the centre of everything I've always done, is the children.

近年来，我们看到儿童对阅读和写作的动机与参与度有所下降，他们对阅读和写作的乐趣也在减少。

And for a few years now, we've seen a decline in motivation and engagement with reading and writing children's enjoyment of reading and writing.

我想和多姆一起探索一种方法，将儿童的动机置于任何新识字模式的核心，从一开始就培养这种理念。

I wanted to look at an approach with Dom that would put children's motivation at the centre of any new literacy model, to foster that approach from the start.

将我们所知的、能培养优秀读者和优秀写作者、自信且有能力的读者和写作者的所有知识与技能，与幼儿教学的最佳实践结合起来。

Bringing together all of the knowledge and skills of what we know makes not only a good reader and a good writer and a confident and competent reader and writer, but also what best practice in the teaching of children and the youngest years is as well.

我认为目标受众是任何对早期阅读和写作感兴趣的人，这本书的美妙之处在于，它适用于从高度学术的层次，到刚入行的教师培训生，甚至到有興趣且积极参与的家长。

And the target audience I think is anyone that has an interest in early reading and writing and I think what the beauty of the book is is it can work for anyone from a highly academic level to, an early career teacher trainee to parents even, interesting engaged parents.

所以你的书分为不同部分，在第一部分中，你对阅读与写作的政治和科学提供了全面的概述。

So your book has different parts in it and in part one of your book you provide a comprehensive overview of the politics and the science of reading and writing.

你还梳理了阅读与写作的历史，以及研究界如何发展并塑造了阅读与写作教学的领域。

You outline the history of reading and writing as well as how the research community has developed and shaped the field of teaching, reading, writing.

因此，你提出的主要框架被称为阅读与写作的双螺旋结构，这是本书第二部分——教学艺术——的基础。

So the main framework you suggest is something called the double helix of reading and writing, which is the foundation for part two of the book, the art of teaching.

你能概述一下阅读与写作的双螺旋结构吗？为什么你认为使用这一框架来指导教学实践至关重要？

Can you give an overview of the double helix of reading and writing and why you believe it is important to use this framework to shape teaching practice?

双螺旋结构是在写作、思考和研究的过程中逐渐形成的，它背后有若干基础要素，但我想从一开始就说明，我们认为它的独特之处在于，它是一个教学模型，而不是学习模型。

The double helix emerged as part of the processes of writing and thinking and researching, and there are a number of things that underpin it, but I wanna say right from the start that what we think is its unique feature is it's a model of teaching and it's not a model of learning.

事实上，这并不是说它不体现学习过程，它确实体现了，但双螺旋出现之前的流行模型通常是学习模型，而非教学模型。

And indeed, well, that's not to say it doesn't represent learning, it does, but the popular models prior to the double helix typically were models of learning, not of teaching.

例如，在某些情况下，像《阅读的简单观》这篇奠基性论文的作者就非常明确地指出过。

And in some cases, for example, The Simple View of Reading, the seminal paper for that, the authors were quite clear.

他们说，这与教学法无关，不是关于教学的。

They said, this is not about pedagogy, it's not about teaching.

因此，我们认为，如果你要建立一个关于如何教授阅读和写作的有效理论，甚至一个有效的模型，那么它必须充分考虑小学和幼儿教育背景下的教学与学习。

So we felt that if you're going to have an effective theory of how to teach reading and writing, and indeed an effective model, then it absolutely must account for teaching and learning in the context of primary and early years education.

那么，这样一个模型的核心要素是什么？

And so then there's a question around, well, what are the core elements of such a model?

顺便说一下，其他一些流行模型的研究，比如《阅读的简单观》或《阅读绳》，它们基本上是从对阅读困难儿童的研究中获得启发的。

By the way, the research on some other models that have been popular, like The Simple View of Reading or The Reading Rope, they've basically drawn their inspiration from studies of children with reading difficulties.

但这显然不是全部真相。

And that's again, not the full story.

因此，对我们而言，重要的是不仅关注阅读困难儿童，还包括我们所谓的普通发展儿童。

So what's important to us is not only children with reading difficulties, but also what we might call typically developing readers.

我还应该指出，阅读与写作的双螺旋模型是结合在一起的。

I should also say that the double helix is of reading and writing and it's combined.

而其他流行模型通常只关注阅读。

So whereas the other models, the popular models tend to be about reading only.

事实上，关于写作的模型非常少，尽管我们在书中确实追踪了一些相关理论。

In fact, are a few model, there are very few theories and models of writing, although we do track some of those in the book.

所以我认为，这些正是让我觉得双螺旋模型如此合适的关键原因。

So I think that's just a few things that for me highlight why we feel the double helix is appropriate.

是的，从可见的角度来看，教育者对何为读写能力拥有清晰且直观的理解至关重要。

Yeah, think looking at it visibly as well, it's really important that educators have that clear understanding and that visible understanding of what being literate entails.

多年来，CLP一直知晓阅读与写作之间的联系。

Now we've known for many years at CLP the links between reading and writing.

我们前主任米拉·巴尔斯最著名的著作《读者与作者》就率先探讨了这一理论。

Our former director Myra Bars, her most famous publication The Reader and the Writer, started exploring that theory.

但要让教师真正认识到，儿童的语言——不仅是他们的语言，而是他们的多种语言——构成了读写能力的基础。

But for teachers to really see that children's language, and not only their language, their languages, underpin that reading and writing.

他们所处的环境，包括高质量的文本和书籍，都能丰富儿童的语言和读写能力。

The environment just surrounding them, including the high quality text, books, enrich children's language and literacy.

而这一核心认知在于：写作促进阅读，写作支持阅读能力的发展，教师必须在教授知识与技能的同时，持续培养儿童对阅读和写作的参与感与动机，使他们具备相应的能力。

And that core understanding that writing fosters reading, that writing supports the development of reading, and that teachers need to really balance the teaching of knowledge and skills with that constant fostering of engagement and motivation to want to read and to want to write and to have the skills to do it.

是的，另外补充一点，从技术层面来说，我们在书中的某一章详细阐述了双螺旋模型，解释了我们为何认为它重要、支持它的研究依据，以及它与其他模型和理论的不同之处。

Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, on the technical side, not only do we give a full account in one of the chapters of the book about the double helix, why we think it's important, the research that underpins it, why it's different from other models and theories.

但我们还发表了一篇经过同行评审的研究论文，对双螺旋模型的研究背景进行了更全面的阐述。

But we also have a peer reviewed research paper that's been published that is an even fuller account of the research background to the double helix.

这篇论文能免费获取吗？

Is it accessible?

它是开放的吗？

Is it, open?

它是开放获取的。

It's open access.

对。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Amazing.

好的。

Okay.

那我会把这个加到播客的简介里。

So I will add this to the blurb in, for the podcast then.

你书中的第二部分全是关于教学的艺术，把教学称为一种艺术真的引起了我的共鸣。

Part two in your book is all about the art of teaching, and calling teaching a form of art really resonated with me.

在这一部分，你反复提到将教学、阅读和学习视为一种平衡的方法。

In there, you keep coming back to the idea of conceptualizing teaching, of reading and learning as a balanced approach.

事实上，你书的标题就包含了‘平衡’这个概念。

In fact, the title of your book contains the idea of a balancing act.

你所说的平衡方法具体是指什么？能举几个例子吗？

What exactly do you mean by the balancing approach, and can you give examples of it?

长篇大论的话，那就把整本书读完吧。

The long answer is read the whole book.

但我现在想先强调几点。

But I just want to highlight a couple of things straight away.

全球范围内关于阅读的争论由来已久，有时甚至非常激烈。

So the debates about reading worldwide are long standing and quite fierce at times.

有时这些争论会进入国家媒体或国际媒体。

Sometimes they come into the national media, international media.

我注意到辩论中存在一些我称之为刻板模式的东西。

I'm detecting various, what I'm going to call tropes in the debates.

在某些地区，如果你提到平衡法，就会遭到嘲笑，人们会说：哦，那只是整体语言法。

And one of the tropes in some regions is that if you say a balanced approach, it's ridiculed and people say, Oh, that's just the whole language approach.

这里有一个非常重要的区别。

There's a very important distinction here.

首先，我们的书在描绘平衡法时，我认为其独特之处在于它基于扎实的研究、严谨的理论以及大量生动具体的实践案例。

First and foremost, what our book does is I think it's unique in its portrayal of the balanced approach from the perspectives of robust research, robust theory, and exhaustive examples, vivid examples of how it's done in practice.

事实上，我们引用了过去一些明确讨论过所谓平衡法或平衡教学的出版物。

We do in fact cite a number of publications in the past that have also written explicitly about what those authors have called the balanced approach or balanced instruction.

因此，我们对那些曾这样写作的人给予了应有的尊重。

And so we pay due regard to people who've written like that.

在英国背景下，过去有几位作者写过类似的内容，但对我们而言，这至关重要。

In The UK context, there are a few authors who've in the past, written something similar, but really for us, it's crucial.

如果我们思考教学中阅读、写作和破解字母代码这一重要部分，我们该如何帮助孩子们理解口语中的音素与书面语言中字母表示之间的复杂关系呢？

And if think about one important part of teaching, reading, writing, cracking the alphabetic code, how do we help kids to understand the complex relationship between phonemes in oral language and how they're represented in letters in written language?

我们说，如果你过于侧重语音教学，就很容易忽略其他要素。

Well, we say, if you narrow too much on say phonics teaching, that can easily exclude other elements.

但研究表明，为了让孩子获得最佳的学习效果，这些其他要素必须与语音教学在每一节课中结合起来。

But we know from research that those other elements do need to be combined with the phonics teaching in every lesson to get the best outcomes for children.

是的，我认为平衡就体现在这里。

Yeah, I think that's where the balance lies.

我经常听到‘阅读墙’这个说法被频繁使用，但这是一个不太恰当的术语，因为它暗示了两个对立面，并让人在两者之间来回摇摆。

I think you hear the term reading walls bounded around quite a lot, which is quite an unhelpful term because it suggests two sides and lurching from one side to another.

在《平衡之道》中，我们关注的是，我们清楚地知道，掌握字母代码、教授孩子语音知识，能够让他们在阅读和写作中获得自主能力和实践经验。

And at The Balancing Act, we're looking at actually, we know that knowledge of the alphabetic code, teaching children phonics allows them to gain power and experience in their reading and writing and being able to do it for themselves.

但正如多姆所说，这种平衡也在于让孩子全面掌握知识与技能，同时通过选择和使用合适的文本激发他们的动机，使他们从一开始就成为自信、有能力且真正投入的读者。

But it's also that balance, as Dom says, of really acquiring a full range of knowledge and skills and also the motivation through the kinds of text that you're choosing and using with children so that they can become confident and competent, and most importantly, those engaged most of those readers right from the start.

对。

Yeah.

我认为你提到的关于自信的部分在阅读中非常重要，对吧？

And I think what you say there in regards to confidence is quite an important aspect in reading, isn't it?

嗯

Well

是的，这让我想到了所谓的马太效应，你可能听说过。

yes, that reminds me of things like what's called the Matthew effect, which you may be familiar with.

你知道，你读得越多，就越学会阅读。

You know, the more you read, the more you learn to read.

我想，你写得越多，就越学会写作——我不是推测，我是确信。

I'd say presumably the more you write, the more you learn to write or not presumably I know.

因此，缺乏阅读和写作的动力会导致学习效果大打折扣，这令人震惊。

So, and the consequences of not being motivated to read and write mean you don't learn as much and it's staggering.

有一项上世纪80年代的著名研究显示，一个普通动机的读者接触到的词汇量，是动机不足者的十倍左右。

The number, a famous study from the 80s, it was something like 10 times, you encounter 10 times the number of words if you're an averagely motivated reader versus one who is not very well motivated.

所以，我们认为，儿童、人类本身才是这一切的核心。

So yeah, we think that the child, the human child and the people are central to this.

这是一种社会行为。

This is a social act.

教学是一种社会行为。

Teaching is a social act.

它不仅仅是一种技术性、狭窄、微小的技能，不能仅通过商业资源以某种特定方式来学习。

It is not simply a technical, narrow, small skill that is to be learned in a very particular way only through the use of commercial resources for example.

事实上，标题本身也是一种创造性行为。

In fact, the title is also a creative act as well.

你需要了解你的孩子，知道他们的需求。

Need to know your children, you need to know what their needs are.

你需要了解阅读和写作，以及阅读和写作的历程，还需要了解儿童读物和儿童文学。

You need to know reading and writing and the journey of reading and writing and you need to know children's books and children's literature.

因此，在这种平衡的方法中，关键在于明确地将自然拼读教学与其他语言层面与整体文本联系起来。

And so in that balanced approach, the lessons there are really making kind of explicit links between phonics teaching and other linguistic aspects with whole text.

这通常通过真实高质量的文本与某些控制词汇的教材相结合来实现，当孩子需要时，也可以借助这些教材。

And that's often through a combination of real high quality text and some scheme books with controlled vocabularies as and when children need to draw upon those as well.

有道理，谢谢。

Makes sense, thank you.

我非常欣赏书中实用的部分，这使得它成为教师们的绝佳资源。

I very much enjoyed the practical aspects of the book, which makes it such a great resource for teachers.

特别是在第七、八、九章中，您提供了具体教案，帮助学生发展更复杂的技能。

Particularly in chapters seven, eight and nine, you provide concrete lesson plans to develop more complex skills in pupils.

这些章节分别涉及破解字母编码、掌握控制力，以及英语的复杂性。

These chapters are on cracking the alphabetic code, gaining control, and the complexities of English.

您能为我们详细讲解其中一个教案，并说明所建议的教学活动如何与您之前介绍的科学理论框架相联系吗？

Can you walk us through one of the lesson plans and highlight how the suggested teaching activities are linked to the science and theoretical frameworks you introduced before?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

我会介绍一个基于一本非常棒的儿童读物的教案，书名叫《斯坦利的棍子》，作者是约翰·赫格利，插图由尼尔·莱顿绘制。

So I'll talk about a lesson plan that is based around a really lovely children's book called Stanley's Stick by John Hegley and illustrated by Neil Layton.

这是一本美妙的诗歌文本，仅从书名《斯坦利的棍子》就能听到头韵，也能看出其中蕴含的丰富机会，帮助孩子感知音素和语音。

It's a wonderful poetic text that even from the title itself, Stanley's Stitch, you can hear the alliteration and you can hear the kind of opportunities you've already got for tuning children into phonemes and sounds.

在所有课程中，它们都围绕真实书籍精心设计，使儿童对语音、语言、阅读和写作的知识能够逐步建立。

And in all the sessions, they're really carefully planned around real books that allow children's knowledge about phonics, language, reading and writing to build progressively.

因此，在围绕《斯坦利的棍子》的一系列课程中，孩子们开始学习到字母——书面字母——代表他们在单词中听到的声音。

So in the series of sessions around Stanley's stick, children start to learn that letters, written letters, represent sounds that they hear in words.

他们学习前五个字母的语音表示。

And look at the first five letter phoneme representations.

他们通过以不同方式与这本书互动来实现这一点。

And they do that through engaging with the book in different ways.

我们逐步展开文本，以便在开始时就建立起参与感。

We slowly unfold the text so that the engagement is built in the beginning.

因此，我们会花一些时间观察这本书的封面。

So we'll spend some time looking at the front cover of the book.

在这本书中，这是一个非常适合幼儿的绝佳互动机会，因为你可以看到一个小男孩在户外环境中，手持一根棍子，旁边是一棵大树。

On this book it's a wonderful engaging opportunity for early years children because you see a small boy holding a stick in the outdoor environment next to a large tree.

因此，这里有大量机会了解儿童的先前知识和经验，这能帮助教师进行形成性评估，了解儿童如何与文本互动，他们带来了哪些先前的知识和理解，以及阅读这本书对他们而言可能的动机是什么。

So there's so many opportunities to gain knowledge of children's prior learning, prior experiences, that then as a teacher help you with that formative assessment of how children are engaging with the text, what prior learning and understanding they're bringing to it and what the motivation might be in reading that for them.

然后他们会花时间阅读标题，聆听该音素，观察它在字母中的表现形式，并围绕这一点规划连贯的语音教学。

They then spend time reading the title and listening for that phoneme, looking at how that's represented when you see it in a letter, and then planning that cohesive teaching of phonics around that.

因此，会提出各种问题来发展孩子的理解力，引导他们从字面理解逐步过渡到推断和评价，培养同理心等更广泛的阅读技能。

So there'll be both questions to develop children's comprehension, moving them from the literal to the inferential to the evaluative, targeting wider reading skills like empathy.

但他们也会进行大量的阅读和写作练习。

But they'll also do lots of reading and writing practice.

因此，当孩子们掌握了足够的音素后，他们会练习阅读与文本相关的可解码单词和短语，并通过最符合幼儿学习特点的方式，获得丰富的学习机会。

So they will practice reading decodable words and phrases that are linked to the text when they've got enough phonemes and enough phonemes have been learned, and they'll engage in rich opportunities for learning in ways that really best meet the early learning styles of young children.

在室内和室外环境中都有大量动手实践的活动。

There's lots of practical hands on activity in the indoor and outdoor environments.

在《斯坦利的棍子》这一主题中，我们会进行围绕棍子编织等活动，以发展精细动作技能，为写作做准备。

So with Stanley Stick, we do things like weaving around sticks to develop those fine motor skills ready for writing.

双螺旋模型的一部分是通过操作物品和工具，帮助孩子为写作做好准备。

A part of the Double helix model is about handling objects and handling tools and getting children ready to write.

他们还会在周围环境中进行大量的倾听练习。

They'll do lots of listening in the environment around them as well.

他们会观察树枝，描述它们，丰富词汇量，讨论树枝是笔直的还是弯曲的、粗糙的、曲折的，从而围绕这些内容发展丰富的语言和想象力体验。

They'll do looking at sticks, describing them, building up their vocabulary, talking about whether sticks are straight or bendy, bumpy, curvy, developing rich language around it and imaginative experiences.

斯坦利拿着他的树枝，想象它能变成各种不同的东西。

Stanley, with his stick imagines his stick is lots of different things.

于是孩子们也会自己模仿这样做。

And so the children in turn do that for themselves.

这里有大量机会让孩子们进行阅读回应和参与，因为唐提到教学是一种社会性行为。

There's lots of opportunity for reader response and engagement for children to put Don talked about teaching being a social act.

阅读也是一种社会性行为。

Reading is a social act as well.

因此，孩子们有很多机会围绕文本进行交流和分享经验，并将这些体验延伸到他们的想象力中，从而促进写作。

So there's lots of opportunities for children to talk and share experiences around text as well, and to take that through to their imagination for writing as well.

首先，他们需要能够描述自己的树枝是什么样的，也许还会进行一些细致的观察绘画，因为雪莉·布莱斯·希思说过，绘画就是思考，这为他们提供了一个获取和巩固语言的机会。

You know, first for being able to describe what their sticks are like, maybe engaging in some close observational drawing of their stick because as Shirley Bryce Heath said drawing is thinking and it's an opportunity for them to gain and consolidate language.

这些活动与课程的其他领域联系紧密，比如有一所学校真的烧了树枝，然后用烧出来的木炭来绘制树枝的细致观察图。

Lovely activities that link with other areas of the curriculum like one school actually burnt their sticks and then used the charcoal that they made from it to actually do those close observational drawings of sticks.

然后是大量富有想象力的活动，让他们思考如何使用自己的树枝，也许还可以围绕树枝创作一些诗歌。

And then lots of imaginative activity that allows them to think about what they'll do with their sticks, maybe making some poetry around sticks.

我们曾收到一些幼儿园孩子写的优美诗歌，这些都是列举式的诗，用他们描述树枝及其可能用途的短语组成。

We had some lovely poetry written by some reception children that was just list poems of phrases that they were using to describe their sticks and what it could be.

正是这些延伸性的活动，让孩子们能够参与探索性和富有想象力的游戏，用自己的语言进行交流、参与并维持共同的思考，并为多种目的和读者创作文字。

It's those extended activities that allow children to engage in that exploratory, that imaginative play, to be able to use language for themselves, to communicate, to engage and sustain shared thinking, and to create writing for a range of purposes and audiences.

在这些写作活动中，我们鼓励教师发展写作的转录性和构篇性两个方面，这些都应作为所有课程中规划好的一部分。

And in that writing, we're encouraging teachers to develop both the transcriptional and compositional aspects of writing that's planned and part of all of the lessons.

这些活动由文本激发，同时也从文本延伸出来，并鼓励孩子们在进行自主和创造性写作时，运用和实践他们日益增长的语音知识和更广泛的写作知识。

It's stimulated by the text but it also extends from the text as well and also encourages children to use and apply their growing phonic knowledge and wider writing writing knowledge when they're engaging in self directed and creative writing as well.

因此，语音教学是这种方法中至关重要的一部分，它教会孩子们识别、清晰发音音素、拼读和分割音素等基本技能，但同时也与其他阅读和写作要素保持平衡，确保孩子们在发展解码和编码单词技能的同时，始终牢记阅读和写作是由动机和意义驱动的。

So again, phonics teaching is a vital part of that approach, teaching children those essential skills of being able to recognise, to enunciate phonemes, to blend and segment, But it's also balanced with all the other elements of reading and writing so that as well as developing the skills to decode and encode words, they never lose sight of the fact that reading and writing are driven by motivation and meaning.

那么在这些教案中，你们会鼓励教师通过提示性问题和这类资源，以不同方式引导学生与材料互动吗？

So in those lesson plans then, you encourage the teacher to, with prompt questions and any with with these kinds of resources to engage the pupil in different ways to interact in different ways with the material.

是的。

That's Yes.

是的，好的，这很有趣。

Yeah, okay, that's interesting.

是的，我认为夏洛特在那里面以及书中做得非常好，清晰地将各种实际元素和原则联系了起来。

Yeah, I think what Charlotte has done so nicely there and in the book is link very clearly all sorts of practical elements and indeed principles.

因此，我们所引入的实践及其引入方式的一个重要之处在于，它们并非作为一种方案或蓝图而设计。

So one of the important things about the practices that we introduce and the way we introduce them is they're not intended as a scheme or a blueprint.

它们是为那些我们认为具有自主性的专业教师设计的，教师在获得关于这些原则的详细示例后，能够根据他们所了解的学生，在课堂上以最合适的方式实施。

They're intended for teachers who we regard as professionals with autonomy, who can work with these principles, having been given detailed examples of what they mean, and can then implement them in the most appropriate way in their classroom with the children that they know.

因此，在双螺旋模型的最顶端是儿童及其来自家庭和社区的语言经验，这些经验差异巨大，教师必须敏锐地了解学生的语言背景，以便为这些孩子提供最恰当的教学。

So at the very top of the double helix model is the child and their language experiences from the home, from the community, and those vary enormously and it's absolutely essential that teachers are attuned to their pupil's language background so that they can make the teaching most appropriate for those children.

然后夏洛特谈到了书籍的即时重要性，书籍不仅仅是枯燥的解码工具，而是蕴含着许多重要教训的读物，当由一位有技巧的教师使用时更是如此。

And then Charlotte was talking about straight away the importance of books, not just simply as kind of boring decoding devices, but books that carry so many important lessons within them and when used by a skillful teacher.

然后，双螺旋的核心是儿童的动机以及他们创作和理解意义的意图。

And then, so at the heart of the double helix is children's motivation and their intentions to compose and comprehend meaning.

而这三个方面驱动着每一节课。

And those three things drive every lesson.

正如夏洛特所描述的，当你想关注音素和字母时，每一本书都提供了这样的机会，但这种方式具有真正的意义，让孩子能够理解英语极其复杂的拼写系统与书籍实际内容、作者意图以及我们为何读书之间的联系。

And so as Charlotte described, when you wanna focus on phonemes and letters, every book offers that opportunity, but it's done in a way that has real purpose and where the child can sort of make the connections between the, let's face it, very complicated orthography of English and the actual reality of what a book is and what an author is and why do we read books.

我认为这一方面——同样适用于写作教学——我们已经忽略了阅读和写作的真实目的。

And I think that side of things, and it applies to writing as well, the teaching of writing, we've really lost sight of what are the purposes?

阅读和写作的真实目的是什么？

What are the real purposes for reading and writing?

我们为什么要做这些事？

Why do we do it?

你为什么应该去做这些事？

Why should you want to do it?

你为什么会对做这些事感到兴奋？

And why might you be excited by doing it?

是的，这是个有趣的观点，因为它也让我们更好地理解学生会觉得什么有趣。

Yeah, that's an interesting point because it also leads us to a better understanding what pupils would find interesting.

对吧？

Right?

那么，是什么能激发他们对这种费力的阅读和写作行为产生兴趣呢？

So what would spark their interest in even engaging in that effortful task of reading and writing.

如果他们所读的是一个能激励他们、吸引他们的故事，他们更有可能去这么做，这种兴趣会逐渐培养起来。

They're probably more likely to do that if they do it with a story that that motivates them, that engage them and so on that trickles their interests.

是的。

Yeah.

从一开始就让他们参与其中也很重要。

It's engaging them with it right from the beginning as well.

因此，我们在课程中经常使用的一种创造性方法是回应图画书中的插图。

So one of the creative approaches that we use quite a lot throughout the sessions is responding to illustrations in picture books.

在一些非常隐蔽的自然拼读教学中，孩子们被要求不要看图片。

With some of the very discreet phonics teaching that we see happening, children are told not to look at the pictures.

但在最优秀的儿童图画书中，比如我们所引用的这些，正是画家们让孩子们在尚未掌握解码文字的工具之前，就能通过图画产生共鸣和参与。

Now in the very best children's picture books, such as the ones we're drawing on, It's the painters that allow the children before they've got those tools to unlock the test for themselves, to engage.

在我刚才提到的《斯坦利的棍子》这本书开头，有一幅很美的画面：斯坦利站在斯托克波特车站的站台上。

There's a lovely picture at the beginning of the Stanley stick book that I just spoke about, where the first scene is about Stanley standing on a platform at Stockport Station.

他手里拿着棍子，正和周围的一些人一起去某个地方。

He's got his stick in his hand and he's going somewhere with some people around him.

你知道，老师可以把这个展示给孩子们看。

And you know, teachers can show that to children.

孩子们可以用很多不同的方式与之互动。

Children can engage with that in many different ways.

我们有一些例子，有些孩子会非常字面地描述，比如说他穿着黑鞋，或者头发乱蓬蓬的。

You know, some of the children that we've, got examples of have done very literal things by saying things like he's got black shoes or he's got jiggly hair.

而有些孩子仅仅通过第一眼观察图片，就能做出推断，比如他说有爸爸和妈妈，因为周围有大人；或者他们要去海滩，因为他手里拿着一个桶。

Then some of them are already just from first looking at the picture, making those inference by saying he's got a dad and a mum because they're looking at the people around or they're going to the beach because he's got a bucket in his hand.

因此，孩子们能够调动自己所有的先前知识和经验，不关闭这种联系，而是从一开始就融入故事和阅读体验中，因为他们已经在与角色及其处境产生共鸣，并通过这种非常个人化的方式与文本互动，逐步建立起自己的读者身份。

So the children are able to bring all of that prior knowledge and experience, not close that off and be part of the story and part of the reading experience from the very beginning because they're already empathizing with characters and their situations, and they're developing their own reader identity by engaging with the text in that very, you know, personal way.

是的，这挺有意思的。

Yeah, that's quite interesting.

这个观察很好，因为当我给儿子读书的时候，他现在九岁了，已经能自己阅读了，但有时候我们还是会一起在睡前读一本书。

That's a good observation because when I read to my son, so when my son is nine years old now, so he reads himself, but sometimes we still read a book at bedtime.

有些书有插图，我注意到的一个现象是，当我阅读时，我通常会忽略这些插图。

And some of the books have pictures and something that I have observed is when I'm reading, I usually ignore the pictures.

作为成年人，我甚至都不会注意图片。

As an adult, I have I'm not even paying attention to the picture.

我的注意力在于阅读文字。

My focus is, you know, to read the text.

有时候我正在读书，他会打断我，提到故事中即将发生的事情。

And sometimes I'm reading and then he interrupts me and says something about something that will happen in the story.

我会转过头问他：你怎么知道这个？

And I turn to him and I say, how do you know this?

他会说：哦，图片里有啊。

And he's like, well, it's in the picture.

我会说：哦，原来是这样。

I'm like, oh, okay.

因为他虽然在听我读，但同时也留意着书中的视觉内容。

So because he's completely, you know, he's listening on what I'm reading, but he's also paying attention to to the visuals in the book.

他把这两者结合起来。

And he puts those two things together.

所以这非常有趣。

And so it's quite interesting.

因此，他们仍然具备关注页面内容的技能，无论是文字还是图像。

So they still have the skill like paying attention to what's going on on a page, be it text, be it visual.

看到我完全忽略了视觉部分，这真是挺有意思的。

And it was quite interesting to see that I completely ignored the visual part.

在教学方面，这一点也同样重要。

And that's really important as well in terms of teaching.

现在的课程节奏非常快，学习进度也很快，目的是让孩子们尽快通过各个阶段。

There's such a fast paced curriculum and such a fast paced learning to get children through to the next hurdles.

实际上，我们方法中的一点就是放慢节奏，更深入地与孩子们一起探索，让他们达到更深层次的理解。

Actually, one of the things in our approach is about slowing things down and going much deeper with children so that they get to a deeper level of understanding.

对于图文结合的内容，这一点尤其重要。

And with visual text, that's really important.

我们很多人只是匆匆扫一眼图片，因为我们一心只想读完文字。

Lots of us skim past the pictures because we're so intent on getting through the words.

但实际上，一本高质量的图画书中，大部分故事内容都蕴含在图片中。

But actually, most of the story in a really good high quality picture book is contained through the pictures.

只有当你把文字和图片放在一起仔细对照、结合起来看时，才能真正理解其中的含义。

And you're only gonna get the true sense of meaning if you look at both next to each other and you put that together.

当孩子们阅读图画书时，如果能围绕文本和插图进行有意义的讨论，他们的乐趣和启发会增加一倍以上。

You know, when children are reading picture books, their enjoyment, their stimulation is more than doubled by actually engaging in that meaningful discussion around the text as well as the illustrations.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，你的问题提到了‘科学’这个词，当然，这也是这个播客的名字。

Just to also pick up in the Your question mentions the word science, and of course it's also the scientist is the name of the podcast.

我只是想简单提一下这一点。

And I just wanted to quickly refer to that.

我的意思是，目前在美国，这些争论主要是由某一位记者推动的，但其中一些论点其实并不陌生。

I mean, the debates, particularly in The USA at the moment, have been fueled by actually one journalist in particular, but it's kind of some of the arguments are familiar.

这是一种认为只有一种科学的观点。

And it's this idea that there's one science.

不存在争议。

There's no debate.

一切都已经定论了，因为所谓的科学已经告诉我们了。

It's all been settled because science in inverted commas has has told us this.

正如我们在书中所说，这种观点甚至是对自然科学的误读。

Now as we say in the book, this is a misreading even of natural sciences.

它几乎完全忽视了社会科学。

It can, pretty much completely ignores social sciences.

甚至在神经科学这样的领域，比如研究阅读与写作这一复杂世界中一个可能有趣的方面，

And even in terms of like neuroscience, for example, which is one potentially interesting part of this complex world of researching, reading, writing.

当然始终存在着协商、分歧、共识，以及不断积累知识，以试图弄清人类大脑中究竟发生了什么。

There is of course constant negotiation, disagreement, agreement, and an accumulation of knowledge to try and work out what's actually happening in the human brain.

但不幸的是，在美国的这些争论中，一些神经科学家被挑了出来，而其他人却没有。

But unfortunately, some neuroscientists have been picked out in these debates in The USA, but not others.

因此，即使在神经科学这一相对狭窄的科学领域，如果我们不坦率地说，采取一种平衡的研究方法，就会遗漏许多重要内容。

And so we're missing, even in the relatively narrow slice of science about neuroscience, we're missing things if we're not, frankly, coin a phrase, taking a balanced approach to the research.

所以我认为这是一个重要的词，实际上需要特别的理解。

So I think it's an important word and it needs particular understanding actually.

因此，我们确实试图呈现一些关于如何思考科学、科学是什么、研究是什么等问题。

So we do try and present some of the issues around how do we think about science, what is science, what is research?

让我们转向您书中更具体的一章。

Let's turn to a more specific, chapter again in your book.

第12章是关于满足所有学生的需求。

Chapter 12 is about meeting the needs of all pupils.

在这一章中，您讨论了在课堂上回应学生多样化需求的重要性。

And in there, you discuss the importance of responding to variety of pupils' needs in the classroom.

您能否举一些特殊需求的例子，并说明如何在大约30人的课堂中最好地应对这些需求？

Can you give some examples of additional needs and how to best address them in a classroom of, say, 30 pupils?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，随着年级的不同，教师面对的情况也会变化，因为在任何30人的班级里，学生的各种需求都不尽相同，每个年级的情况都不会一样。

I mean, things are gonna change from year group to year group with teachers because in any class of 30, you're gonna have a varying degree of different needs, and it's not going be the same in any one year group.

目前我们从学校看到的一个趋势是，越来越多的孩子带有额外的学习需求，因此教师能够识别出那些在阅读和写作方面取得进步、但发展速度比同龄人慢的孩子，这一点至关重要。

One of the things that we're seeing coming through from schools at the moment is a much larger quantity of children coming in with additional needs and so it's really important that teachers are able to recognise, maybe some of those children who are making progress in reading and writing, but are developing more slowly than their peers.

他们可能没有特殊教育需求，但他们的发育速度确实较慢。

They may not have a special educational need, but their development may be at a slower rate.

有些孩子在阅读和写作方面存在非常具体的学习困难，同时在其他学习领域也面临挑战。

There might be some children who are experiencing very specific difficulties in reading and writing as well as difficulties in other areas of learning.

有些孩子在写作、阅读或拼写方面甚至面临更严重的困难。

There might be some children who are experiencing much more acute difficulties in writing, reading or spelling even.

对某些孩子来说，这些问题可能还会更加广泛。

And for some children it might go even wider than that.

有些孩子有明确的特殊教育需求，有些孩子则以英语作为第二语言。

Some children may have defined special educational needs, some children may have English as an additional language.

我认为，从根本上说，最重要的是充分了解你的学生及其背景经历。

I think at the root of everything it's really knowing your children well and knowing their background experiences.

所以，如果你有一个以英语为第二语言的孩子，比如，他们还会说哪些其他语言？

So if you have a child with English traditional language, for example, what additional languages are they speaking?

他们在母语中的熟练程度如何？

What's their proficiency in their home language?

因为如果他们在母语学习上有 gaps，我们就需要同时关注他们英语学习和母语学习的进展。

Because actually if there's gaps in learning in their home language, we need to address this alongside their learning in English.

如果他们有特殊教育需求，我们对这种需求了解得足够多吗？

If they have a special educational need, do we know enough about that need for ourselves?

我们是否有额外的支持资源可以利用？

Do we have extra support to draw on?

我们了解孩子们偏好的学习方式吗？

Do we know children's preferred learning methodology?

对于这一切，关键在于我们作为教师要充分了解自己的学生，了解他们的现状、目标以及如何帮助他们达成目标。

And for everything in this, it's about us as teachers knowing our children, knowing where they are, knowing where they need to get to and how we're going to get them there.

因此，我们一些识字发展较慢的孩子，可能在自然拼读教学方面存在一些非常具体的知识缺口，可能需要在最基础的层面进行额外干预，帮助他们掌握如音素合成与分割等基本技能，从而能够阅读和写作。

So some of our children who are slow to develop literacy might have some very specific gaps maybe in the teaching phonics and maybe need some extra intervention at the very basic level to get them to do things like blending and segmenting to be able to read and write.

其他孩子在阅读的广泛体验方面可能存在差距。

Other children, their gaps might be in their wider experiences of reading.

在本书的前面某一章中，我们谈到了识字的基础。

And in one of the earlier chapters in the book, we talk about the foundations of literacy.

目前小学课堂中正在进行大量干预措施，我们需要审视针对每组儿童或每个表现出需求的个体儿童最有效的干预方式。

There's a lot of interventions going on in the primary classroom at the moment, and we need to look at what the most purposeful interventions are for each group of children or each individual child that is presenting need to us.

对于某些孩子来说，问题在于他们从未有过成人给他们读书或共读绘本的基础体验。

For some of those children, it's going to be that they haven't had those foundational experiences of being read to, being shared books with an adult.

对于某些孩子，你的有针对性的干预可能就是提供额外的阅读机会。

It might be that your purposeful intervention for some children is about giving them extra reading.

我记得我18岁的女儿，她是第一批接受语音筛查测试的孩子之一。

I remember with my own daughter who's 18 now, she was in the first class of children who went through the Phonics screening check.

我一直是那种在操场上被其他家长寻求建议的老师。

I was always one of those parents that was a teacher in the playground, so it was drawn upon for advice.

但他们总是对我说：‘你难道不担心你女儿每天都没有人陪她读书吗？’

But they always used to say to me, don't don't you worry that they're not reading with your daughter every single day?

我说，不，其实不用。

And I said, well, no.

因为他们知道我每天都和她一起读书。

Because they know I read with her every single day.

他们看她的阅读记录。

They look at her reading records.

所以，如果他们不每天和她一起读，而是每周三次和其他没有阅读习惯的孩子一起读，这完全没问题。

So if they're not reading with her because they're reading three times a week with other children who don't get read to, that's absolutely fine.

我认为教育的危险在于，我们总在寻找那个神奇的万能解法。

I think the danger with education is we're always looking for the magic silver bullet.

我们总在寻找一个能适用于每个孩子的神奇方法。

We're always looking for the magic one that will work for every single child.

但我认为并不存在这样的东西。

And I don't think there is such a thing.

每个孩子都不同，我们需要了解他们，知道什么方法对他们有效、在什么时候有效，作为受过专业训练的教育者，我们需要掌握阅读的各个方面，并能针对不同的孩子和群体采取相应的措施。

All children are different, we need to know them and we need to know what works for them and when and we need to have enough in our armoury as trained professionals to be able to know what are all the aspects of reading and how do we address them with different children and groups of children.

是的，我一直想着一个问题，那就是所谓的‘阅读恢复’这种方法，它的定位是什么？

Yeah, and I think one of the things that's been on my mind is, you know, what is the place of the approach called reading recovery?

我担心在某些地区，我们已经把孩子和洗澡水一起倒掉了。

And I think we're in danger, very much in danger of, well, baby's already been thrown out with the bathwater, I'm afraid, some regions.

比如新西兰，阅读恢复的创始人玛丽·克莱伊实际上出生在新西兰，并在那里开始她的职业生涯，也一直居住在那里。

So New Zealand, for example, which So Mary Clay, the originator of reading recovery, well, basically was born in New Zealand and started her working life there, lived there.

而新西兰在经历了许多年后，最近刚刚放弃了阅读恢复项目。

And New Zealand has just recently abandoned Reading Recovery after many, many years.

他们并不是唯一这样做的地方。

They're not alone in this.

在我看来，阅读恢复正遭受一些实际上错误的批评。

Reading Recovery is coming under some actually erroneous criticisms in my view.

其中之一就是一种奇怪的观点，认为你不应该鼓励孩子在遇到不认识的单词时，借助句子的整体意义来推测。

One of which is this strange idea that you should not encourage children to use the meaning of, for example, a sentence when they're trying to work out a word they're unfamiliar with.

但我们有来自九十年代一项随机对照试验的明确证据，证明如果鼓励孩子利用语义来推测单词，效果会更好。

But we have conclusive evidence from a randomized controlled trial from the nineties that clearly shows if you encourage children to try and work out words using semantics, it's more effective than if you don't.

然而，这 somehow 成为了我前面提到的那些刻板印象之一。

And yet, somehow it's one of these tropes that I mentioned earlier.

现在有一种刻板印象认为猜测是错误的。

There's now a trope that guessing is wrong.

在某些情况下，猜测甚至被视为邪恶的。

Guessing is almost evil in some cases.

事实上，我在美国看到过一些法律强制规定，例如教师培训者和学员不得教授儿童应该猜测单词。

In fact, I have seen in America legally mandated things that say, for example, teacher trainers and trainees must not be taught about that children should guess words.

但这完全得不到科学支持。

Well, that's not supported by the science at all.

当然，我并不是说，正如夏洛特所说，不存在万能解法，即使是阅读恢复这种在某种程度上具有灵活性的项目也远非完美。

And now I'm not saying, as Charlotte said, there is no silver bullet, even reading recovery, which was to some degree a flexible program is by no means perfect.

但我们绝不能忽视阅读恢复的另一个方面：玛丽·克莱指出，如果儿童在六岁时仍无法解码，在英语教学体系中，我们就必须思考原因并给予帮助。

But another aspect of reading recovery we should never lose sight of is Mary Clay said, when children are six, if they're in a English medium education system, if they can't decode by the time they're six, then we need to be thinking why and we need to be helping them.

因此，大量研究表明，例如一对一辅导是有效的。

And so we know from a wide range of studies that for example, one to one tuition is helpful.

我们对此心知肚明。

We know this.

因此，玛丽·克莱伊阅读恢复方法的一些核心原则，即使某些细节可以改进，也不应被完全否定。

And so some of the sort of main tenets of Mary Clay's reading recovery approach, even if some of the details can be improved, should not be completely dismissed.

这正是在美国、新西兰和英格兰发生的情况，我们曾成功运用过阅读恢复。

And this is what's happening in The USA, in New Zealand, in England, we did use read and recovery successfully.

来自位于IOE的阅读恢复团队曾有相关数据，是关于这一方法的纵向研究数据。

There was data from the read and recovery team who were based at the IOE, longitudinal data on this.

因此，我认为这其实是一个警示：是的，我认为我们仍需继续推进，我认为确实有必要探索新的方法和研究，以切实解决夏洛特刚刚出色阐述的问题。

And so I think it's a note of caution really that, yes, I think we need to keep pushing forward on, I think there is a need for new approaches and new research to look at how might we frankly do what Charlotte has just articulated so well.

我们该如何建立一个成本低廉、切实可行且真正以儿童为中心的系统？

How might we develop a system that's cost effective, practical and effective that is genuinely child centered?

这并不容易，但我认为新研究的前沿就应在此处。

And that's not easy, but that's where I think the frontiers of new work should be.

我认为我们还需要不断回归到一个方面，那就是时间。

And I think one of the aspects that we need to keep coming back to is that time as well.

教师需要有时间去观察并了解他们的学生，同时也需要时间熟悉儿童文学，以便能够根据不同阶段的阅读课程需求，选择和使用合适的文本，从而有能力为每位读者在阅读旅程的各个阶段做出最佳选择。

Know, teachers feeling that they have time to observe and get to know their children and teachers having time to know children's literature as well so that they're able to choose and use text for children to access in different parts of the reading curriculum in different ways so that they're empowered to make the best choices that meet the needs of their readers at every stage of their reading journey.

我们尚未讨论到的一类孩子是那些已经能够阅读的孩子，我们不希望强迫他们阅读那些远远低于他们实际水平的分级读物。

One of the groups we haven't talked about yet are children who can already read, and the fact that we don't want to hold those children back by forcing them to read level readers that are, you know, they are way beyond the experience of.

因此，我们需要清楚地知道为谁选择哪些书。

So we need to know which books we're choosing for who.

对于一些需要额外帮助的孩子，我们可以组织小组阅读活动，使用高度结构化的文本或押韵文本，让他们借助语言的模式和节奏来学习。

We need to know for some children who need that extra little leg up, we might do some group reading sessions with them using a very highly structured text or a rhyming text that they all lean on the patterns and the rhythms of language.

对某些孩子来说，那些可解码的文本可能很有用，能作为他们缺失的拼读和分音技能的过渡支持。

For some children, some of those decodable texts may be useful as that scaffold into the skills of blending and segmenting that they might be missing.

关键在于给予教师足够的时间、空间和培训，以形成全面的教学方法，使他们能够运用专业判断和自主权，根据遇到的每个孩子及其具体需求做出最佳决策。

So it's that it's the time and space and the training for teachers to have that really well rounded approach so that they can use their professional judgment and their autonomy and have license to make the best decisions for whichever peoples come their way and whatever needs they present.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

这让我想起，我记得在美国，一位名叫雷德·莱昂的研究者曾提出一个数据：百分之四十的孩子并不需要系统的语音教学，百分之四十。

And that reminds me of, I think, as I recall, it was in The USA, a researcher called Reid Lyon put forward the statistic that forty percent of children do not need systematic phonics, forty percent.

如果我是这些孩子中某一个的家长，而我孩子的学校却让他们连续两年进行合成语音教学，却不提供他们本应接触的适当课程和活动，我一定会强烈抗议。

Were I to be a parent of one of those children and my child's school was drilling them in synthetic phonics for two years and not giving them the appropriate lessons and activities that they should be encountering, I'd be up in arms.

我认为，我不想再挑起更多争端，但如果我们采取一种平衡的方法，那么所有群体的孩子都能得到良好的支持，包括夏洛特所强调的那些相对容易且较早学会阅读的孩子。

And I think, I don't want to fuel any more wars, but if we have a balanced approach, then all groups of children should be well served, including those, as Charlotte has highlighted, who learn to read relatively easily and early.

到目前为止，我们已经讨论了这本书与教育的关系，以及教师如何使用它。

So far, we have discussed the book in relation to education and how teachers may use it.

然而，我也看到这本书对家长和家庭生活同样提供了重要的见解。

However, I can see that the book offers important insights for parents and life at home as well.

您的书中有哪些重要的观点，可以帮助家长和看护者支持孩子在阅读和写作旅程中的发展？

What are important lessons from your book that can help parents and carers to support children on their reading and writing journey?

我认为，我们在书中能够做到并清晰阐述的，不仅是对研究的明确分析，让家长了解课堂上正在发生什么以及背后的原因，还提供了一条关于阅读和写作如何发展的进步性路径，这样当家长在家中支持孩子时，就能明白那些真正能产生影响的基本基础要素。

So I think what we've been able to do and articulate in the book is not only a really clear analysis of the research so that parents are clued up on what's happening in classrooms and why it might be happening, but also a really progressive journey into how reading and writing develops so that when parents are supporting children at home, they know kind of what those basic foundational aspects are that really they can make a difference in.

你知道，大量研究，包括伊拉姆·西拉吉所做的相关纵向研究都表明，那些在逆境中依然取得成功的孩子，往往拥有丰富的阅读体验。

So you know if you look at a wealth of research including, Iram Siraj has done some great longitudinal studies around that, we know that children who succeed against the odds are those who've had the real reading rich experiences.

你知道，那些家里有书、有人给他们读书、经常带他们去图书馆的孩子，就像你的儿子一样，每天晚上都有人陪他们读故事的孩子。

You know, those who've got books in their home, those that are read to you, those that are taken to the library, those that, like your son, have someone reading the type stories with them every night.

这正是我们希望看到的实践方式。

And that's the kind of practice that we want to see.

父母们常常会被学校向他们介绍的那些过于技术化的拼读术语搞得不知所措。

Parents can often become quite rattled by the very technical language of phonics that's presented to them at school.

如果他们能做好一些基础性的事情，比如与孩子交谈、和孩子玩耍、和孩子一起阅读，那么他们在拼读方面的介入就远没有那么重要。

Their job is much less in that area if they do the really foundational things like talk to their children, play with their children, read with their children.

我认为，我们书中所展示的以真实文本为基础的拼读教学法，也为父母提供了一个很好的切入点，让他们明白：‘这就是我该如何和孩子讨论一本书。’

And I think the lessons that we have demonstrated that are the phonics based lessons that are based around real text are really good ways in for parents as well to say, this is how I talk about a book with my child.

这就是我们如何围绕书籍开展有趣活动的方式，如何提出问题来提升孩子的理解能力。

This is how, you know, we engage in really fun activities around it, how we how I can ask questions that develop their comprehension.

这也是我如何将拼读元素融入其中的方法。

This is how I could bring some of that phonics in as well.

我认为，是的，父母们已经看到了一种过于狭隘的教学方式，这让他们感到不安，而我们正在展示如何拓宽这种视野。

I think, yeah, parents have have seen quite a narrowing approach, which can be quite threatening, and and we're showing how to broaden that out.

此外，也可能有父母希望积极参与拼读教学，而我们已经清晰地梳理了拼读发展的全过程，让他们能清楚地看到一套系统化的拼读教学方法，包括如何明确地进行字母与音素的对应、如何进行拼读和切分、如何用不同的音素组合出词语，以及如何将这些融入丰富的阅读体验中。

Also, there might be parents who want to get involved with the phonics, and I think we've laid out the kind of journey of phonics progression so that they can see really clearly a systematic approach to the teaching of phonics with really clearly thought out sessions and examples of how to do the core things like match letters to phonemes, how to blend, how to segment the kinds of words you can create with different phonemes that you know and how to bring that into a reading rich experience.

所以我认为，除了在课堂上提供更全面、更丰富的体验外，家长也可以参与其中。

So I think, yeah, as well as kind of bringing a much more holistic and rounded experience in the classroom, parents can engage with that too.

我还想再次加入写作这一部分，因为我曾与我的一位博士生合作开展了一项研究，她探讨了家长如何帮助孩子进行阅读和写作。

I'd like to also add writing to the mix again, because I was involved in a study with a PhD student of mine, and she looked at how parents were helping their children with reading and writing.

主要发现之一是，虽然许多家长对支持孩子的阅读感到满意和自在，甚至能意识到孩子正处于早期阅读阶段，但他们却无法将这种能力延伸到写作上。

And one the main findings was that whereas quite a lot of parents were reasonably content and comfortable with supporting reading, and indeed could see that their child was an emergent reader, they couldn't apply this to writing.

举个小例子，如果孩子正在进行我们所说的‘游戏式写作’或涂鸦，家长需要意识到：啊，我的孩子可能正在尝试表达某种意义。

And so just to give one small example, if for example, a child is what we might call playwriting or, you know, mark making, what parents need to do is they need to think, ah, there's a possibility that my child is trying to create meaning here.

让我和孩子聊聊，去了解他们，带着他们正在试图沟通的假设与他们互动。

Let me talk to them, let me find out, let me engage with them with the assumption that they're trying to communicate something.

当家长采取这种态度时，不仅会对孩子的想法有更有趣的了解，也在开始提供至关重要的支持；而那些本身会写作的家长，自然会加入一些有用的信息。

And when parents adopt that approach, not only do they learn fascinating things about what children are thinking, they're beginning that vital support and inevitably, parents who can write just throw in bits of useful information.

而且，我不惊讶有百分之四十的孩子，只需要这些就能学会写作。

And again, I wouldn't be surprised if forty percent of children, that's all they'll need to learn to write.

所以，如果我要思考家长最需要关注的方面，我会更倾向于写作，因为阅读——把书带回家——已经是普遍的做法，虽然总还能做得更好。

So I think if I were to think about anything in terms of parents, it would be more about writing because reading, books going home is a well established practice, can always be done better.

但我认为，关键在于支持家长在写作方面的参与。

But I think it's about supporting parents in terms of writing.

但也许这里还可以出另一本书，夏洛特。

But maybe there's another book there, Charlotte.

是的。

Yeah.

所以在结束本集之前，让我们回到教师身上，谈谈你设想他们如何使用这本书。

So before wrapping up this episode, let's return to teachers and how you envision them using your book.

这可能是个有点特别的问题，但我还是想问一下。

This might be a bit of an unusual question, but, here I go.

像这样的书，可能并没有唯一正确的阅读方式。

With books like this one, there may not be the one right way to read it.

例如，从头到尾按顺序阅读。

For example, from start to end.

但根据教师使用这本书的方式，存在一些更灵活的阅读方法空间。

But depending on how teachers are using this book, there's scope for some more dynamic reading approaches.

在您看来，您觉得老师应该按照章节顺序阅读您的书，还是有理由跳过章节顺序，以获得不同的阅读体验？

In your views, do you feel that teachers should read your book in the order of the chapters, or is there an argument to sidestep the chapter order for a different reading experience?

我想说的第一点是，从社交媒体上已经可以看出，老师以及整个学校系统已经拿到了这本书，并且正在用它来指导专业发展，这令人非常兴奋。

The first thing I want to say is already it's clear from social media that teachers and indeed chains of schools have got hold of the book and are actually using it to inform professional development, which is incredibly exciting.

我对老师如何阅读这本书完全不在意。

I absolutely don't mind how teachers approach the book.

当然，我们在某种程度上是以传统方式构思这本书的。

We have of course conceived it in some ways quite traditionally.

我们之前、期间都反复推敲过它的结构，它有一个连贯的叙事。

There's an absolute structure which we agonized over before, during, and it has a coherent narrative.

你知道，它读起来是流畅的，我们希望如此。

You know, it flows, we hope.

但另一方面，我也意识到，就像我经常做的那样，我会跳读某些部分，专注于某一章的特定内容。

But on the other hand, we also recognize, as I do, you know, I frequently will skim read bits and pieces, hone in on a certain part of one chapter.

我可能会仔细阅读某一章，因为那正是我特别感兴趣的部分。

I might read one chapter very carefully because that's something I've got particular interest in.