第7集 - 惊奇号战舰（上）；杰里米·雷蒙德

欢迎收听《情人洞》帕特里克·奥布莱恩播客节目，我是伊恩。

Welcome to The Lover's Hole, the Patrick O'Brien podcast. You're with Ian.

我是迈克。

And this is Mike.

迈克，我们这档节目是做什么的？

And what are we all about, Mike?

伊恩，我们正在逐本研读帕特里克·奥布莱恩的奥布里-马图林系列全部20部作品。已完成第一部《指挥大师》和第二部《后任舰长》，今天开始讨论第三部。新听众欢迎加入，老听众欢迎回来。

Well, Ian, we're reading through all 20 books of the Patrick O'Brien Aubrey Matron series. We've completed book one, Mastering Commander, and book two, Post Captain. And today, we're starting discussion of book three. So if you're new to the podcast, welcome. And if you've been following us, welcome back.

很高兴有你们相伴。

It's good to have you with us.

确实欢迎各位。无论你是谁、来自何方，能与你共度时光真是太好了。迈克，本周我们开始讨论正典第三部，对许多听众来说，我们已经逐渐熟悉杰克·奥布里和斯蒂芬·马图林的故事。你认为《惊异号》与系列前两部相比有何不同之处？

Welcome, indeed. It's really great to have you with us, whoever you are and wherever you've come from. So Mike, this week we're starting on a third book in the canon and for lots of people we're settling into a pattern of knowing about Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin. How do you think HMS surprise differs, if at all, from the first two books in the series?

我认为《惊异号》篇幅更短，情节推进更快。我们完全离开了英国周边和地中海海域，向更遥远的地方航行。和前两部一样，它远不止是一部历史海战小说。《惊异号》以更快的节奏和更多动作场面，更深入地探索了角色们在岸上与海上的生活。

Well, in Surprise, I think is shorter, the action comes faster. We leave the waters around The UK and the Mediterranean far behind and journey much further afield. It continues to be, like the first two books, much more than just a historical naval fiction novel. And Surprise dives even deeper into the lives of our characters on shore and at sea, but with a quicker pace and a bit more action.

好吧。如果你觉得《主人与指挥官》中航海细节过多，雄性荷尔蒙爆棚，而《战后舰长》又走向另一个极端，充斥着太多思考、对话和角色焦虑，那么这本小说或许就是帕特里克·奥布莱恩拿捏得恰到好处的'金发姑娘'之作。

Okay. So if you thought that Master and Commando was a little bit too much nautical detail and little bit too much testosterone, And you thought that post captain was on the other hand, maybe a little too much, thinking and talking and character angst. Maybe this is gonna be the Goldilocks novel where Patrick O'Brien gets it just right.

我们都爱'金发姑娘'。如你所忆，这是船员们在《主人与指挥官》中对索菲号上杰克·奥伯瑞的昵称。

And we love Goldilocks. As as you call recall, that's the crew's nickname for Jack Albury, on the Sophie in Master and Commander.

噢，没错。哎呀，当然。天哪，这完全是个巧合。

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Of course. Oh, blimey. That was that was a complete accident.

名字叫金发姑娘，本质也是金发姑娘——在他的第三部小说里，这就对了。

Goldilocks by name. Goldilocks by nature in his third novel. There you go.

有趣的是，有人说《战后舰长》堪称杰克犯错大全——记录他的过失及其后果。而在《惊涛怪浪》中，我们则见证了斯蒂芬的诸多错误及其连锁反应。

Well, it's interesting. Some people say Post Captain is kind of a litany of Jack's mistakes. His mistakes and what happens and the result of it. And that in surprise, we follow many of Stephen's mistakes and the results of those mistakes.

为重新评估现状并获得新视角，我们邀请了一位帕特里克·奥布莱恩的新手朋友重读《主人与指挥官》。本周你们将听到我与迈克和好友杰里米·雷蒙德的对话。

So one of the things that we did to evaluate where we are and get a fresh take was to ask a friend of ours who is a Patrick O'Brien novice to take a fresh look at first book to take a fresh look at Master and Commander. So you're gonna hear this week the conversation that we had, me and Mike, with our good friend Jeremy Raymond.

没错，他是我们朋友圈里最聪明的人之一。

Yep. One of the smartest friends that we have.

确实如此。而且这也没多说什么。

Absolutely. And that's not saying very much.

太对了。

Too true.

现在我们已经读完帕特里克·奥布莱恩系列的两本书了。我们和大多数听众一样，都是这些书的粉丝，正以喜爱它们的方式探索其中的微妙之处。但或许我们并未努力以批判的眼光看待这些书。迈克和我想到，也许可以邀请一位直到最近才接触这些书的新读者加入，请对方读一读并分享一些看法。我们的老朋友兼前同事杰里米·雷蒙德现在就在我们这里。

So we're two books in to our reading of the Patrick O'Brien canon now. And we've approached this from what is probably the same perspective that most of you have, which is that we're fans of the books and that we're exploring nuances in the way that we love them. But we perhaps haven't tried very hard to look at the books critically. And Mike and I thought that maybe we could invite somebody to join us who until recently was new to the books, ask that person to take a read and maybe share a few thoughts with us. And our old friend and work colleague Jeremy Raymond is with us.

请打个招呼吧，杰里米。

Please say hello Jeremy.

你们好。迈克好，伊恩好。

Hello. Hello Mike. Hi Ian.

你好，你好，欢迎。杰里米，我们邀请你来是因为当我提议‘何不读读这些书中的一本？’时，你是个热心的志愿者。你是个文学爱好者，可能比我和迈克读得更多，所以我们想听听你的想法。

Hello. Hello. Welcome. And Jeremy, we've invited you to join us because you were a willing volunteer when I proposed, hey, why not read one of these books? You being a literary sort of fella, and you being probably better read even than me and Mike and ask for some thoughts.

所以请确认一下，你觉得这个描述是否公平。

So just confirm for us that you're happy that that's a fair description.

是的，我认为这绝对是非常慷慨的评价。虽然我不觉得自己特别适合阅读拿破仑时期或以大型舰船为背景的历史小说，但我确实非常享受这本书。

Yeah, I think that's absolutely that's extremely generous. I wouldn't have said I was particularly well qualified to read historical novels set in the Napoleonic period or on board a large ship, but I did enjoy it very much.

啊，太棒了。那么我们是从《怒海争锋》开始带你入门的，对吧？

Ah, fantastic. So we started your, I think, with Master and Commander. Is that right?

没错，确实如此。

Correct. You did. Yeah.

那我们就直接进入主题吧。作为这类作品的新读者，请谈谈你的阅读感受。

So let's get straight into it. As as a new reader to this kind of work, tell us what you thought.

首先我想简单说说我与大海的关系，因为这确实影响了我的观点。在我看来，最伟大的航海成就是英吉利海峡隧道的建成，这样我就不用乘坐28英里的渡轮去法国了。带着这种想法，当我发现这本书全是关于船只、索具和船材之类的内容时，刚开始几章确实有些犹豫。但当我逐渐了解马塔林这个角色后，就开始真正享受阅读了。不过我注意到自己特别关注了他的视角。

Well, let me just say a little bit about my relationship with the sea first, because I think this does rather color my view. In my view, the greatest naval achievement has been the construction of the Channel Tunnel because I don't need to take the Channel ferry 28 miles to go to France. So with that in mind, I kind of did when I realized this was all about boats and ships and rigging and futtocks and all that, I did somewhat hesitate after a few chapters. But then when I got to know the character of Matarin, I did rather get to enjoy it. But I noticed I paid particular attention to his perspective.

开篇有个精彩片段，当他被带上船时说道：'对求知欲旺盛的人来说，船一定是最具启发性的舞台'。我当时就想，好吧，这句话成功吸引了我。他是观察者，船员们就是实验对象。这就像是1960年代遇见了1800年代（或故事发生的任何年代）。

So there's a marvelous bit right at the beginning when he's taken on board the ship. And he says, a ship must be the most instructive theater for an inquiring mind. And I thought, okay, right, that's got me hooked. He's the observer, they're the lab rats. This is 1960s meets 1800 or whatever the date is.

后来我开始真正享受这本书，因为我完全沉浸在角色中。不过说实话，当描写海战时我有些走神甚至打瞌睡——这大概...（此处原句不完整）我问过一位剑桥的历史学者朋友是否读过这个系列，他回答说'噢，我就喜欢那些战斗场面'。你看，读者总能从书中找到自己喜欢的部分。所以我确实非常喜欢所有角色塑造。

And then I started to really enjoy it because I really got into the characters. And I have to say, I skipped or dozed off a little bit when there was a naval battle going on, which is probably what And I asked a friend of mine who's a history scholar from Cambridge, had he read them and which do you like? And he said, Oh, I just love the battles. He said, so, you know, you can take out of a book what you like. So I, yeah, so I really enjoyed all the characters.

我很喜欢所有的喜剧元素。我是说，我觉得这里面有很多狡黠的幽默，我也很享受。这让我开始思考整个历史小说类型，因为在读这本书的同时，我还在补读希拉里·曼特尔的前两部作品，为阅读她关于托马斯·克伦威尔的三部曲中那部大部头第三卷做准备。我意识到真正优秀的历史小说是通过对话来描绘画面的。他在这方面做得非常好，就像希拉里·曼特尔或简·奥斯汀那样。

I enjoyed all the comedy. I mean, I think there's quite a lot of sort of sly humor going on here, which I also enjoyed. And I enjoy it made me think about the whole genre of historical fiction really, because at the same time as reading this, I was catching up on the two Hilary Mantel books prior to reading the enormous doorstop of a third volume of her trilogy about Thomas Cromwell. And I realized that really good historical novels, they sort of paint a picture through dialogue. And he does that really well, just as Hilary Mantel does, or Jane Austen come to that.

书中真正的描述并不多。偶尔会有些雄辩的描写，但你必须很努力才能找到这样的段落。我刚翻开书看到一段：阳光在水面上舞动，将海水染出奇妙的色彩，时而蒸腾起新的薄雾，时而驱散旧的雾气，在紧绷的索具线条与船帆的优美曲线上投下精致的阴影，又洒向正被圣石打磨得发白的甲板。这种描写在本书中极为罕见。

There's not much real description. Every now and then there's a sort of bit of an eloquent description, but you really have to look hard to find something like this a bit here. I've just opened a book. It says, the sun worked upon the surface of the water, doing wonderful things to its color, raising new mists, dissolving others, sending exquisite patterns of shadows among the taut lines of the rigging and the pure curves of the sails and down onto the white deck, now being scrubbed white out of the steady grinding of holy stones. I mean, that's extremely rare in this book.

我认为你需要很强的视觉想象力才能享受这类语境描写，虽然对人物刻画倒不需要这种能力。

I think you really need a strong visual imagination to enjoy the kind of context of this, although you don't when it comes to the characters.

非常好。

Very good.

这正是我的想法。

That was my thought.

谢谢。我想回到你提到的那段极具画面感的文字。我有种感觉，当他采用诗意或描述性写法时，常常会描写光线。不知道这是否与他终生居住在南法海滨小镇有关——那里深受野兽派画家青睐。也许邻居常与他谈论光线，或者他特别钟爱户外光线的意象。这往往是他营造场景或引入故事转折的方式。

Thank you. And I want to come back to this, that bit of very visual writing that you came up with. I've got a sort of feeling that when he does become poetic or descriptive in the way that he writes, he often talks about light. And I don't if there's a connection to the fact that he spent all of his life in a small town on the on the Southern Coast Of France, popular with fauvist painters. And maybe he had neighbors who talked to him a lot about the light or he particularly enjoyed the idea of light in the outdoors, but it's often a way that he creates a scene or introduces a turning point in the story.

确实如此。而且他特别喜欢用形容词，比如绒毛状的、隐蔽的、懒洋洋的、毛发丛生的。我12岁就知道'毛发丛生'这个词，但从没在书里见过。他还巧妙地引入'珠母质的'这种珍珠母般的光线描述——这种词你通常只在填字游戏里见到，很少出现在文学作品中。

Yeah, it's true. It's true. And also he, a lot of his adjectives, I mean, loves words, you know, flocky, nooky, nahilly, pillification. I knew that word from the age of 12, but I've never seen it in a book. And he finds a way to introduce incentives, but he actually uses the word nacreous, you know, mother of pearl like about light, which again is a word you sort of get in crosswords, but you don't tend to find in books.

好吧，让我们做个假设。如果如你所说，这不是一本面向缺乏视觉想象力读者的小说，如果有另一位作家以更具视觉化的语言和更多描述来处理相同背景和主题，那会如何改变书籍的基调或吸引力？我想我是在礼貌地问，所以呢？

Okay, let's pursue a hypothetical then. If it's not a novel, as you say, for the visually unimaginative, if there was another writer approaching some of the same setting and some of the same subject matter with more visual language and more description, How might that change the tone or the appeal of the books? I guess I'm politely asking, so what?

嗯，我认为这意味着它们能让对那个时期不太感兴趣或不太了解的观众也能接触到。

Well, I think what it means is it makes them accessible to an audience who's not particularly interested or knowledgeable about the period.

好的。

Okay.

我是说，简·奥斯汀被誉为对话体小说的开创者，真正第一个认真对待对话的人。因此，对于那些讨厌简·奥斯汀的人来说，这似乎只是大量闲聊，而喜欢她的人则钟爱那种讽刺的幽默感，因为帕特里克·奥布莱恩也做同样的事。她非常擅长赋予每个人物独特的声音，让你逐渐了解和熟悉。而他也是如此。比如，他对马图林外貌的描述，我其实对他长什么样没有具体的视觉概念，但通过他特别在日记中的描述和对读者的讲述方式，我大概知道他是什么样的人，你知道他的热情所在，以及他如何能非常冷静。

I mean, Jane Austen is credited with the creation of the sort of dialogue novel, really, the first person to really take dialogue seriously. And as a result, it all seems to be a lot of chat for people who loathe Jane Austen and people who like it love the kind of wry humor because Patrick O'Brien does the same thing. She's very good at giving individual people a kind of voice that you get to know and get to hear. And he does the same. I mean, his description of what maturin looks like, for example, I don't really have any visual concept of what he looks like, but I sort of know what he is like from the way he particularly describes in his diary and sort of speaking to the reader, you sort of know what he's like, you know, what he's passionate about and, and you know how he can be very dispassionate.

因此，你通过他的声音和说话方式了解他。我认为所有角色在某种程度上都是这样。马歇尔是这样，奥布里是这样，里基茨也是这样。我觉得迪伦稍微让人失望，他似乎没有一个那么清晰的声音。

So you get a knowledge of him through his voice and through the way he talks. And I think all the characters to some extent do that. I mean, Marshall does it, Aubrey does it, Ricketts does it. I think Dylan's the slightly disappointing one. He doesn't seem to have such a clear voice anyway.

这导致了他的死亡。也许这就是原因。我是说，如果可以的话，我想再引用一段，因为在第六章有一段他在日记中写道。他谈到时间如何改变人们性格的呈现方式。他说，我常常觉得，在这个时期（他指的是一个关键时期），人们要么塑造出他们永久的性格，要么让这些性格烙印在他们身上。

It kills him off. So perhaps that's why. I mean, I'm just going to pick out another bit if I may, because there's a piece in chapter six where he's writing in his diary. He's talking about the way in which time in a way changes the way people's characters come across. And he says, it has often seemed to me that towards this period, and this is the period referring to is a critical time, men strike out their permanent characters or have these characters struck into them.

在此之前是欢乐、高涨的情绪，然后是一些偶然的关联或某种隐藏的偏好，或者更确切地说，内在的偏见在起作用。一个人走上了他无法离开的道路，只能继续加深这条道路，一条沟或一条渠道，直到他迷失在他纯粹的性格、角色中，不再是人，而是属于这个性格的特质的堆积。他这是在说詹姆斯·狄龙，他如何变成了他曾经的自我的漫画形象。然后他继续说，这很奇怪。我该说令人心碎吗？

Merriment, roaring high spirits before this, then some chance concatenation or some hidden predilection or rather inherent bias working through. And a man is in the road he cannot leave, but must go on making it deeper and deeper, a groove or a channel until he is lost in his mere character, persona, no longer human, but an accretion of qualities belonging to this character. And he's saying this about James Dillon, how he becomes a sort of caricature of who he once was. And then he goes on and says, it is odd. Will I say heartbreaking?

快乐如何延续，心灵的畅所欲言，自然涌现的喜悦，权威是其大敌，那种权威的架势。我认识一个年过五十的人，在我看来他完全保持了人性。我觉得这很了不起。真的，真的如此。这就是当你忽略那些繁琐细节时会得到的，你知道，我就是这么做的。

How cheerfulness goes, garrity of mind, natural free springing joy, authority is its great enemy, the assumption of authority. I knew a human over 50 who seemed to me to be entirely human. I thought that was wonderful. I just, you know, it really, it really is. And that's what you get if you ignore the rigging and all that stuff, you know, which I did.

有意思，杰里米，我们之前讨论过，那些句子正是我读书时最向往的部分。而且我很喜欢听那些繁琐细节。实际上我经常听这些，虽然听不懂具体含义，但那些优美的词句本身就足够动人。

It's funny, Jeremy, we've talked about that before, that those are the phrases, you know, the parts of the book that I live for. And I love hearing about the rigging. I actually listened to them a lot, but I can hear about it and it's, you know, it's lovely words and I don't have to know anything about what it means.

是的，我同意。这种专业术语就像白噪音，让你确信他确实精通所写的内容。因为我认为写历史小说的首要挑战就是说服历史学家，你不觉得吗？说服他们之后，再来说服我们这些略懂皮毛的普通读者...

Yeah, I agree. It's a sort of white noise that gives you a kind of reassurance that he really knows what he's talking about. Because I think if you write historical fiction, your first challenge is to persuade the historians, don't you think? And then having persuaded them to persuade the rest of us who kind of know a bit, but don't I you

我认为包括我在内的大量读者，都痴迷于他笔下文字与现实历史背景之间那种考究的关联。他显然做了极其严谨的学术工作来整合这些。但有时我也会想，或许他只是成功构建了一个内在逻辑自洽的世界体系。也许我们对待这些背景的态度，就像对待科幻作品——当柯克船长说'唯一摧毁敌人牵引光束的方法就是反转二锂晶体极性'时...

think a huge part of the audience, myself included, loves the sort of nerdy connection between what he's writing on the page and the world that he was writing about and the context of it. And he's clearly done this immensely scholarly job of putting it all together. But it also sometimes occurs to me that maybe he's just very successfully made a world with an internally consistent set of rules and contexts. And maybe we just do the same thing with those contexts that we do with, you know, fiction. When Captain Kirk says, you know, the only way to destroy the enemy's tractor beam is to reverse the polarity of the dilithium crystals.

我们不会追问'等等，二锂晶体是什么？'，而是直接接受'好吧，这比麦高芬道具高级些，是他们专门创造出来让我们觉得'哦，背景设定在推进剧情''。

We don't go, Oh, hang on a minute. What's a dilithium crystal? We just go, Oh, okay. That's a sort of a something better than a MacGuffin, but it's something that they've also kind of created for us to sort of go, Oh, well, there's some scenery going by.

不，我觉得你说得对。他确实活在自己创造的世界里，因为他描写这一切时带着惊人的流畅与自信。所以我们相信，因为他深信不疑——就像对自己的推销话术倒背如流且真心相信的销售员。这不再是他讲述的故事，这就是事实。

No, I think you're right. I think he does inhabit the world that he creates because he writes with such sort of fluency and confidence about all this. And so we believe it because he believes it, you know, he's like the salesman who knows his pitch inside out and who believes it. It's no longer a story that he tells. It is true.

知道吗？这就是真实发生的事。如你所说，这离不开他必须进行的海量研究。他肯定是个彻头彻尾的考据狂，对吧？他是不是？他完全沉浸其中了。

You know, this is what happened. That I think is, as you say, is part of it, the massive amount of research that he must have done to do this. And he must have been a complete navel nut, wasn't he? Was he? He was anybody in there.

脐部或许还有其他种类。

Navel amongst other kinds of, perhaps.

哦，他还有其他种类的坚果吗？

Oh, other kinds of nuts as well, was he?

嗯，我是说，就他非常...你知道的，他过着相当与世隔绝的生活，而且非常学术。不仅对海军历史有研究，显然还对动物学、植物学和文学造诣颇深。他对古典文学、哲学和欧洲文化的引用深不可测。这说明他的思想不仅专注于海军历史，还涉猎其他学术领域。

Well, I mean, to the extent he was very, you know, he lived a very kind of isolated life and he was, you know, scholarly, not only I think about the naval history side, but obviously about zoology and botany and about literature. He's got references miles deep to classical literature and to, you know, philosophy and European culture. So that speaks of a kind of mind that's focused not only on the naval history, but on other bits of scholarship as well.

确实如此。他在那方面令人印象深刻。我喜欢的是他对此表现得很轻松，不像...比如弗雷德里克·福赛斯的惊悚小说或安迪·麦克纳布的作品，前几页总有个男人在拆卸卡拉什尼科夫步枪，每个零件都要提到，就为了证明他真懂枪。

For sure. For sure. Yes. I mean, he's massively impressive on that front. And what I like is that he wears it lightly, you know, so unlike, well, my example would be those Frederick Forsyth thriller novels about, or Andy McNabb, you know, where the whole of the first three pages is some man dismembering a Kalashnikov, which every part of which has to be mentioned to make sure, you know, he really knows about Kalashnikov.

帕特里克·奥布莱恩的作品不会给人这种感觉。你能感受到他是真心热爱这一切。他懂这些，但也不介意你是否忽略。这种感觉很好。另外关于这些书，我和你说过，伊恩...

You don't get that impression with Patrick O'Brien. You do get the impression that he just loves it all. And he sort of knows it, but he doesn't mind if you ignore it actually. That's what I felt, which is quite nice. The other thing I would say about the books is, and I've talked about this with you, Ian.

我认为女性角色在这本书里被严重边缘化了。哈特太太，他是怎么形容的？她是个精彩的角色，特别是在晚宴初次登场时，但后续着墨太少了，对吧？不过这或许也反映了读者群体——安迪·麦克纳布、弗雷德里克·福赛斯或007系列的小说里本来就没有多少女性角色。

I do think the women get a pretty, they get a pretty short shrift in this book. Mrs. Hart, what is it he says? She's a marvelous character, especially the first meeting of her at the dinner party, but there's not much of that to hang on, is there really? But then that's maybe again, audience, there aren't any women in Andy McNab novels or other in Frederick Forsyth or James Bond or any of those who

我们最后只能说'去读下一本你就知道了'。确实如果你读续作，会发现有很多刻画深刻、有趣的女角色，她们不仅在故事中有更多戏份，而且比莫莉·哈特得到的描写更正面。不知道这是否是作者有意为之，先让第一部充满雄性荷尔蒙，再让后续作品更平衡？

we end up falling back on the, oh, well, you read the next book, then you would see. And it is absolutely true that if you read the next book, there's so many really deeply well written, interesting characterful female characters written about not only with more to do in story, but also a bit more charitably than Molly Hart gets written about. And I don't know if that was a deliberate thing to say, I'll make the first one sort of testosterone heavy and then make the second one and subsequent ones more balanced?

我认为他是这样的，我的意思是，在我看来他真正的兴趣在于两位主角之间的关系以及他们截然不同的世界观。一个是理智的观察者，另一个是像阿尔伯里那样渴望生活、尽情索取的角色，而他们竟然成为了朋友，形成了一种兄弟情谊。虽然我不确定是否该称之为兄弟情谊，但尽管性格迥异却能相处融洽，我想这一点也令他着迷，因为他们某种程度上或许是他自身性格的互补面。我不确定，因为对他本人一无所知，但我明显感觉到作者的声音在马塔兰身上比在奥布里身上强烈得多——至少在这本书里，我们几乎看不到奥布里的内心活动。他本就不是个善于自省的角色，但我们对其内心世界确实知之甚少。

I think he was, I mean, it feels to me like his real interest is the relationship between the two principal characters and the kind of contrasting worldview of the two of them. So the sort of intellectual observer meets the kind of lust for life, take everything you can kind of character of Albury and the fact that they become friends, the sort of bromance as it were between the two of them. I don't know if you'd really call it a bromance, but this fact that they get along so well, even though they're so different, I think that also intrigues him because they're there, and maybe they sort of, to some extent are complimentary sides to his own character. I don't know, because I don't know anything about him, but I definitely felt that the author's voice was much stronger in Mataran than it was in Aubrey, because we don't get any, this book anyway, we get very little introspection from Aubrey. Mean, he's not a particularly introspective character, but we don't get much sense of what's going on in his head.

我正想说在《舰长》里我们确实能看到更多。但杰里米，你说得对，他本就不怎么自省，不过随着剧情发展，我们逐渐看到了更多端倪。而马特隆的内心世界被深刻展现，这正是让人情不自禁爱上这个角色的美妙之处。

Well, I was going to say we get more so when we step on the post captain. But to your point, Jeremy, he's not very introspective to begin with, but what there is, we start to see more of it. We see it deeply in Matron, which is what makes him so wonderfully fun to fall in love with.

完全同意。杰里米，我记得你曾对我说过，作者似乎对两位主角怀有同等的爱。是的。不过我觉得他对马塔林的爱可能更深些，或者说他通过马塔林投射了更多个人观点。但正如你所说，我认为他确实向往着...

Absolutely. And Jeremy, I remember you saying to me at one point, you know, he seems to love both of the protagonists equally. Yes. I think that he loves Matarin a little bit more or he projects more of his point of view through Matarin. But like you say, he he I think he aspires this.

杰克·奥布里身上有种特质，或许是奥布莱恩自己所向往或钦佩的，这种特质部分存在于他自己身上，部分存在于他人身上。

There's there's a there's virtue about Jack Aubrey that I think O'Brien maybe aspired to or admired partly in himself or partly in others.

我觉得谁得到最精彩的玩笑也是个风向标。马特隆显然获得了最好的笑料，这通常能泄露作者最偏爱谁。之前我读到那段关于权威对中年人影响的绝妙描写——沃伦上将这样的高级舰长职位让人枯萎，精神上的枯萎，可惜肚子却没瘦下来。就是那种带着讥讽的俏皮话。

I think it's always telling too who gets the best jokes. And Matron, I think, definitely gets the best jokes because that's usually a bit of a giveaway about, you know, who who the the author loves most. That little bit I read before, there's a marvellous bit about when, you know, the effect of authority on on middle aged men. The senior post captaincy, Admiral Warren, shriveled men, shriveled in essence, not alas in belly. You know, that kind of sort of rather sort of snarky remark.

没错。还有个关于舱房尺寸的精彩段子，说什么'如果你装着木腿倒是挺合适'之类的，所有这些妙语都给了马塔兰而非奥布里。

Yes. There's another wonderful one about the size of the cabin, which was something to do with it would fit you very well if you had a wooden leg or something, you know, all these kinds of comments all get given to Mataran rather than Aubrey.

是啊。每次奥布里试图幽默时，都显得有点生硬幼稚，活像个青少年。

Yeah. And every time Aubrey tries humor, it's a bit forced and a bit inane and teenager ish really.

奥布里讲的笑话并不出彩。事实上，他的笑话既短小又结构松散，但他从中获得的欢愉如此明显，以至于其他人看着杰克那副乐不可支的模样都忍不住发笑。我觉得迪伦甚至注意到了这点——他从那些最傻气、最微不足道的小事中获得的乐趣，比任何人这辈子见过的都多。

Aubrey doesn't have great jokes. As a matter of fact, his jokes are little and they're poorly constructed and he gets such glee out of them that everybody else can't help but laugh looking at how gleeful Jack is. I think Dylan even makes an observation. He gets more humor out of the silliest, littlest things than anybody's ever seen in his life.

伊恩，你怎么看待他们之间那种对音乐的共同兴趣？这显然是重要的纽带，对吧？

Ian, what do you make of their kind of shared interest in music then? That's obviously a big bond, isn't it?

这确实是重要纽带，奥布莱恩在开篇第一句就点明了。对我而言，音乐兴趣同样是支撑我持续创作故事的重要部分。我认为作者某种程度上是在用音乐定位时代背景，让我们能自然地融入那些非显性的音乐文化指涉。他还经常通过音乐与次要角色建立联系——那些我们本应反感的人物，往往是像吹长笛很蹩脚的海军军官这类角色。

It is a big bond and O'Brien puts it into the first sentence. It was certainly a big part of what kept me going into stories as well, having an interest in music myself. I think a little bit of it he's using it to sort of place us in the time so we can make nice, you know, non obvious cultural references to music that was going on. And he makes connections to secondary characters often through the music as well. A character that we're meant to regard unsympathetically tends to be somebody like a Marine or a junior officer who plays the flute badly.

奥布莱恩对角色最严厉的批评之一就是说他们乐器演奏得很糟。他经常这么做，我觉得这是他为角色增添色彩的另一种方式。虽然音乐对剧情从不起决定性作用，但就像频繁出现的晚宴场景一样，这两兄弟总会在音乐之夜或歌剧演出等场合登场。

That's one of the worst things that O'Brien can say about another character is that they play musical instrument badly. And he quite often uses So I think it's another chance for him to give color to character. It doesn't ever play a massive role in the plot, but almost as often as at dinner parties are the are these two onshore at an evening of music or the opera or something.

是啊，书中那种享受生活的气息，那些隆重晚宴的描写确实很突出。当他在描述上真正发力时，往往都与人们的饮食有关——我得说还常常带着幽默笔触，但我一直很享受这些餐饮描写。有段绝妙的描述是他们受邀参加迪伦的晚宴时，所有人都突然变得哑口无言。

Yeah. The bon vivre aspect of this, you know, the big dinners that really features. Where he does go into overdrive on the descriptions is often to do with what people are eating. Often in quite a humorous way, I would add, but I always enjoyed the meals. There's a marvelous description when they're all invited to dinner by Dylan and how everybody then kind of couldn't speak.

此刻他说的每句话都正确无误，但很快他的情绪就在这种压力下低落下来。马歇尔和珀西·里基茨像哑巴似地坐着，只会说'请'和'谢谢'，用餐姿势僵硬得可怕。年轻的莫维特作为另一位客人当然全程沉默。迪伦只顾对付那块小羊排，而斯蒂芬·麦卡林则深陷在沉思里。（换段）

Here everything he said was right and presently his spirits began to sink under the burden. Marshall and Percer Ricketts sat mum saying please and thank you eating with dreadful precision. Young Mowet, a fellow guest was altogether silent, of course. Dylan worked away at the small jock, but Stephen Maccharin was sunk deep in reverie. New paragraph.

最终是那头烤猪拯救了这场忧郁的宴席。我太爱这段了，精彩绝伦。

It was the pig that saved this melancholy feast. I love that. Wonderful.

所以我想回到你之前用过的那个说法，杰里米。你谈到这些角色某种程度上像是实验鼠，通过马塔林这个角色，我们某种程度上在观察人性。你认为这与六十年代末的时代精神有任何关联吗？还是说这反映了作者对人的看法？

So I want to come back to the phrase that you used before, Jeremy. You talked about the characters kind of being lab rats that made partly through the character of Matarin, we're sort of observing humanity. Do you think that went along with any of the sort of spirit of the time of the late sixties? Or does it say something to us about the writer's take on people?

嗯，我认为——再次声明，我对他的生平一无所知——但如果你考虑到这是1969年写的，如果1969年映射到1800年，要知道当时大家都在谈论心理学、社会心理学的重要性。我觉得他要么读过相关著作，要么对此感兴趣。比如，他对身份认同的思考很感兴趣，杰克在某处提出的观点完全不符合那个时代。我的洛利波利男孩会以其人之道还治其人之身吗？他们会重新开始迫害他吗？

Well, I think, and again, I don't know anything about his life, but if you think about the if this is written in 1969, if this 1969 hits 1800, you know, the talk was all of the importance of psychology, social psychology. And I think he either read about that or he was interested in that. For example, he's interested in the idea their reflection on identity, which Jack at one point raises is completely, completely out of keeping with the period. Would my Lollybolly boy pay the men back to their own coin? Would they return to their persecution of him?

他能多快获得一个新身份？'身份？'杰克一边说，一边悠闲地倒着咖啡，'身份不是与生俱来的吗？我所说的身份是介于一个人与外部世界之间的东西，是他对自己的看法与他人对他的看法的中点，当然这两者会不断相互影响。'

How quickly could he come by a new identity? Identity? Said Jack, comfortably pouring out more coffee. Isn't identity something you are born with? The identity I am thinking of is something that hovers between a man and the rest of the world, a midpoint between his view of himself and theirs of him, for each of course affects the other continually.

'一种相互作用的流动状态，先生。我的这种身份认同没有任何绝对性。如果您现在去西班牙待几天，就会发现您的身份变了，因为那里普遍认为您是个虚伪、刻薄、野蛮、杀人不眨眼的恶棍，一个可憎之人。'这完全是1960年代的关注点，不是吗？

A reciprocal fluxion, sir. There is nothing absolute about this identity of mine. Were you personally, to spend some days in Spain at present, you would find yours changed, you know, because of the general opinion there that you are a false, harsh, brutal, murdering villain, an odious man. That is just absolutely 1960s interest, isn't it?

是的，完全正确。人们作为持续社会学实验的一部分，

Yes, absolutely. People as a part of a continuing sociological experiment,

而且，

and that,

要知道，根本不存在命运这回事。我们都在各种情境间来回碰撞。我这么说好像我对六十年代记忆犹新似的，说实话，谦虚地说——

you know, there's no such thing as destiny. We're all kind of pinging from situation to situation. I say that as if I've got crystal clear recall of the sixties and, you know, modesty forbids, but

那个时代的人们，关注的核心是阶级。是关于地位以及即便像杰克那样渴望进步的想法——我猜这种社会抱负的观念在当时都相当罕见。这或许正是海军成为一个有趣环境的原因之一，因为它是少数能让一个人从海军军校生起步最终晋升为海军上将的领域。但总体而言，当时的社会流动性受到极大限制。所以关于身份流动性的概念，我确信那完全是六十年代的思想产物。

The people of the period would, it would have been about class. It would have been about position and the thought that you could make progress even as Jack aspires to, even that I imagine was pretty unusual, the sort of idea of social ambition. That maybe was one of the reasons why the Navy is an interesting sort of environment, because it was one of the environments where you could start as a midship and you could end up as an Admiral. But in general, the society was massively constrained in terms of social mobility. So the idea that identity was somehow fluid, I'm sure that was, that's just a sixties thought, honestly.

我认为，关于人身自由哲学和人性的论述其实出现在十八世纪末的哲学著作中。在后来的书籍里，马特·施沃纳和他的对话者时不时会回溯到这些观点。他试图建立某种联系，但正如你所说，这种以特定方式思考人的模式确实带有奥布莱恩时代的鲜明特征。你会发现有些角色顽固地 clinging to 旧秩序——比如杰克就是典型的旧式托利党农业主义者，坚信社会具有某种固有稳定性。

Well, I think, the philosophy of the liberty of the person and the idea of human nature were being written about in late eighteenth century philosophy. And every now and again in the later books, Matt Schwerner and his conversation partners kind of go back to that. So I think he's trying to make a connection, but it absolutely is of, as you say, of O'Brien's time to be thinking about people in that way. You hear as well, I think that there are some characters that really cling to the old order. I think Jack is a is an agrarian old world Tory type who believes that there's sort of a settled nature to society.

而斯蒂芬则强烈反对这种观念，特别是当它导向权威时。奥布莱恩偏爱那些通过自身奋斗晋升的角色，凡是提到从底层爬上来的军官或将领，都会得到正面刻画。正如我们在播客里讨论过的，迈克，那些天生享有特权身处高位的人，往往被塑造成要么愚蠢可笑要么心术不正的形象。

And Stephen's very anti that, especially if it gets you in the direction of authority. And O'Brien has a bit of a fondness for characters who have, as it were, risen through the ranks. Anybody that we hear about who's an officer or an admiral who's come, as they say, after the horse hole gets a positive character picture. And as we've said, Mike, the podcast, people who are privileged and born into their high position are often given the job of being either a bit of a twit or a bit malignant.

没错。所以他支持社会流动，相信阶层流动的可能性。说不定他甚至是社会主义者？谁知道呢。但就政治倾向而言，他的思想远比当时时代允许的更左翼，在社会观点上可能也更自由派。

Right. So he's in favor of social mobility. He believes in social mobility. Maybe he's even a socialist, who knows, but he's much more left wing than the time would allow, I guess, in political terms, and perhaps he's more liberal socially in terms of his views as well. I don't know.

只读过一本书很难下定论，但引发这些思考很有趣。因为我不断将其与读过的其他历史小说比较，总觉得这种现象很普遍——作者永远无法摆脱当代敏感性，这是创作必然携带的基因。若强行追求绝对复古，反而会沦为滑稽的仿古作品，而仿古永远不是真正的历史还原。

Having only read one book, it's quite hard to judge, but it's interesting that it prompts these thoughts because I suppose in my mind, I kept comparing this with other historical fiction that I'd read and was kept thinking, you know, this always happens. You can't, as the author avoid your contemporary sensitivity. You can't avoid that. That's what you bring to the writing. And you can't if you try to do the other thing, end up with a sort of pastiche and, you know, pastiche is funny, but it definitely isn't pastiche.

就像希拉里·曼特尔的文风绝非都铎王朝风格，却奇妙地奏效——因为她将现代认知转化为符合时代语境的表达，既不会破坏历史沉浸感，又能传递出那个时代的感知与意识。当我听说这本书写于1969年时，立刻感受到这就是那个年代特有的思想印记。

In the same way, Hilary Mantel's style is absolutely not Tudor, you know, but it for some reason, it really works because it's contemporary perceptions turned into language that is sufficiently of the period for it to feel, for it to not disturb your understanding that you're in a different period of history. But the perception and the kind of sensitivity, the consciousness, if you like, of the period. And that's what I felt about him when he said it was written in 1969. I thought, yeah, that's absolutely what they were thinking about 1969.

那么如果要选读下一本历史小说，你会选择什么作品呢？

So if you were going to pick up another historical fiction novel, where might you go next?

我打算读《镜与光》，这就是我刚站起来去拿的书。这是我的下一步计划，整整800页呢。

I'm going to read The Mirror and the Light. That is what I've just stood up to get it. That's my next plan. All, yeah, 800 pages of it.

《镜与光》是本什么样的书？

And The Mirror and the Light is what sort of a book?

这是希拉里·曼特尔关于托马斯·克伦威尔的三部曲第三卷，前两部曾获布克奖。

It's the third volume of the trilogy about Thomas Cromwell written by Hilary Mantel, who won the Booker Prize for the previous two.

杰里米，你是选择纸质书还是有声书路线？

And Jeremy, are you going down the paper route or are you going down the audiobook route?

我会像前两本一样选择纸质书，因为可以按自己的节奏阅读。这就是有声书和阅读的区别——你可以按自己的速度消化内容。当然有时候听书效果更好。

I'm going go down the paper route like I did with the other two because you can take it at your own pace. That's the difference between the audio and the read. Yeah. You can absorb it at your own rate. And sometimes it's much better to listen.

比如《提堂》结尾处对安妮·博林处决的描写，用听的简直让人毛骨悚然，这种震撼感是我当初阅读时没有体会到的。但有些次要角色，你很难有足够时间真正理解他们是谁。所以我还是选择读纸质版——何况这是生日礼物，不读说不过去对吧？

So there's a bit at the end of Bringing Up the Bodies, which is her description of the execution of Anne Boleyn, which is absolutely chilling to listen to in a way that I hadn't remembered from when I'd read it. But there are other things, particularly the minor characters where you don't kind of get enough time really to sort of absorb who they are. And that's why I'm, you know, I'm gonna read in paper, but for anything else, I got it for my birthday. So I have to, don't I? Right.

确实该读。我猜杰里米你应该不会急着把剩下的20本帕特里克·奥布莱恩小说一口气读完吧？

You kind of do. I mean, I'm I'm I'm guessing, Jeremy, that you're not about to to embark on a on a read of all remaining 20 Patrick O'Brien novels in a tearing hurry.

不。但我肯定会尝试下一本，特别是如果故事更偏向岸上场景，或许还有几位女性角色的话。

No. But I will definitely I'm I will definitely have a go at the next one, particularly if it's a bit more shore bound and maybe there are there are a few women characters.

我认为这对《舰长》的描述很公允。你觉得呢，迈克？

I think that's a fair description of Post Captain. What do you think, Mike?

哦，完全同意。我正想说，杰里米，如果你有兴趣不妨试试接下来的两本。我们正在安排《惊奇号》接续《舰长》。有些人会建议先读《惊奇号》，如果喜欢再回头读前两本。

Oh, absolutely. I was gonna say, and if you're a willing man, Jeremy, give a try to the next two. We're setting up HMS Surprise to come after Post Captain now. And some people will say, you know, try HMS Surprise first. And if you like it, go back and read the first two.

好吧，好吧。我会试试的。但如我所说，那得是读完八百页之后的事了，你懂的。没错。

Okay. Okay. Well, I'll have a go. But as I say, it'll be eight hundred pages later than today, if you know what I mean. Right.

那将会是在镜子和光的另一侧某处。

It'll be somewhere on the other side of the mirror and the light.

确实如此。是的，完全正确。

It will. Yes, exactly.

那么杰里米，非常感谢你的参与。能在情人洞节目与你同席真是太好了。

So Jeremy, thanks very much for joining us. It was really great to have you with us on the Lover's Hole.

但我认为关于情人洞的关键在于，他所说的专家们不会直接进入情人洞，而是绕道而行。

But I think the important thing about the lover's hole is that the what he says about it is that the experts don't go the obvious way into the lover's hole. They go the roundabout route.

给你。

There you go.

紧抓着那些该死的绳索。总之，这非常有趣。谢谢。

Clinging to the fattuck shrouds. Anyway, it's been great fun. Thank you.

非常感谢你，杰里米。

Thanks so much, Jeremy.

也谢谢你，杰里米。非常非常有趣。现在是我们短暂休息的时候了。我们稍后马上回来。欢迎回来。

Thank you to you too as well, Jeremy. Lots and lots of fun. So now it's time for us to take a short break. We're gonna be right back in a few moments. Welcome back.

你们正在收听的是伊恩和迈克主持的《情人洞》节目。此刻我想提醒大家，我们非常希望在我们的Facebook页面facebook.com/loverswhole上听到你们的反馈。我们的Twitter账号是wholelubbers。最近我们还在通过一些新渠道分发播客。除了在谷歌上出现，我们还在Spotify上，并开始在YouTube上播放部分播客内容。

You're with Ian and Mike listening to the lovers' hole. This is a moment when I'd like to remind you all that we would love to hear from you on our Facebook page, which is facebook.com/loverswhole. On Twitter, Our Twitter account is wholelubbers. We're also distributing the podcast via some new channels these days. We've got the podcast as well as appearing on Google, we're on Spotify and we're also beginning to broadcast some of the podcasts on YouTube.

所以如果你认识的人喜欢这些平台但还没接触过我们的播客，请随时分享并帮忙宣传。

So if you know someone whose favorite channel is one of those who hasn't accessed the podcast yet, please feel free to share and spread the word.

非常感谢各位听众的积极反馈，要求我们在其他平台提供播客内容。我们听到了大家的声音，很高兴你们在收听。

And many thanks to you listeners who've been reaching out and asking to have the podcast available on these other channels. We hear you and we're delighted that you're listening.

确实如此。从像杰里米这样初次接触经典作品和帕特里克·奥布莱恩的新人视角来讨论这些小说非常棒。现在我们需要回到《HMS惊奇号》的剧情了。迈克，这部小说开篇的重点确实是史蒂文，对吧？

We certainly are. So it was really great to talk about these novels from the perspective of someone like Jeremy who's new to the canon and new to Patrick O'Brien. We need to get back into HMS Surprise now. Mike, the focus at the beginning of this novel is really on Steven, isn't it?

没错。虽然杰克和史蒂文都不在场，但史蒂文才是这个场景中被讨论的关键人物。遗憾的是，杰克直到场景后期才被提及，而他的名字出现只会加剧我们在《舰长》结尾留下的好运逆转。

Right. Neither Jack or Steven is in the scene, but Steven is the vital character being talked about here. And sadly, Jack gets mentioned only later in the scene, and the mention in his name only contributes to the reversal of the good fortune we left at the end of Post Captain.

确实如此。往下滚动页面——我记得上次我们讨论过维基百科上关于西班牙珍宝船队行动的摘要。看到最后一段你就会发现降临在史蒂文和杰克身上的命运逆转。而史蒂文是最先得知这个消息的，最初是通过他在情报界的联系人间接获悉。

Definitely. So just scroll down. I think we were talking last time about the Wikipedia summary for the action with the Spanish treasure fleet. Down to the bottom paragraph of that and you'll discover the reversal that overcomes Stephen and Jack. And it's Stephen that learns of it first, initially indirectly via his contacts in the world of intelligence.

让我们稍作回溯。小说开篇其实是海军情报委员会的会议场景，史蒂文的导师兼保护者约瑟夫·布莱恩爵士正竭尽全力阻止即将做出的可怕决定——他们准备撤销西班牙珍宝的战利品地位，理由是这些财宝是在和平时期缴获的，因此应归海军部所有。

But let's go back for a second. The novel actually begins in a meeting of the Naval Intelligence Committee with Stephen's mentor, protector, handler, Sir Joseph Blain, doing his darndest to try and stop this terrible decision that's coming, which is going to be to revoke the idea of prize money status for the Spanish treasure that was captured on the basis that it was captured in time of peace and therefore is droids of the admiralty.

是啊...不过我不太确定，这到底是海军情报委员会的决议，还是更高层的海军部委员会决定？要知道新任海军大臣刚上任，执政党也换了。现在这场海军部会议里居然还有普通市民列席。

Yeah. Is it and I'm not sure. I'm wondering, it the Naval Intelligence Committee or perhaps the bigger Admiralty Board? You know, we've got this new First Lord, apparently a change in the ruling party. And now in this Admiralty meeting, there are plain ordinary citizens in attendance.

这种场合根本不适合提及或暴露情报人员身份。

No place to mention or expose an intelligence agent.

从情报角度来看，保护斯蒂芬作为消息来源的安全隐患极大。我特别关注史蒂文斯如何在短短两部小说中（如果这算快的话）实现现实与文学形象的双重蜕变——从一个低调的落魄前医师、流落马洪岛的自然哲学家，逐渐被招募（虽非主线行动）。显然他从偶尔提供捕牛事务建议的闲散顾问，成长为海军部中地位更稳固的人物。如今在《惊喜号》开篇，他的报告已能直达最高层（我们在《舰长》结尾已见识过），其作为情报官的身份对王国至关重要，但当他的事迹被名人广泛谈论时，这种地位也岌岌可危。

And from an intelligence point of view, preserving the security of Stephen as a source, it's a potential disaster. And I'm interested in how quickly, at least in two books if you can call that quickly, Stevens matured both in reality and as a character presented to us from being a fairly low key individual, an impoverished former physician, impoverished natural philosopher cast ashore in Mahon. He got recruited, I think not as part of the main action, it's clear that he went from being an occasional casual adviser about cattle hunt affairs to something a bit more established in the world of the Admiralty. And now here at the beginning of HMS Surprise, he's clearly an individual whose reports are read at the highest level. And we saw that at the end of post captain and whose identity and status as an intelligence agent is important to the realm, but is also potentially at risk when he's talked about widely by people who are who are well known.

有趣的是，他作为哲学家的特质也在成长。或许这种特质一直存在，但我们看到成熟的斯蒂芬参加皇家学会会议，很可能在学会学报上占有一席之地——这对自然哲学家而言意义重大。我不禁感叹：到第三部小说开篇，我们再也无法说斯蒂芬·马图林在声望或社会地位方面有任何逊色之处了。

And interestingly, the his character as a as a philosopher has grown as well. Maybe it was there all along, but we see that Stephen Maturing goes along to a meeting of the Royal Society, and he's likely to find a place in the proceedings of the Royal Society, which for a natural philosopher is a pretty big deal. So I was just struck by yes. Sitting back thinking, okay. Beginning of the third novel, we can't any longer say that Stephen Matruin is the poor relation in any way in terms of his profile or his status in the world.

无论在政治、情报、科学还是哲学领域，他绝对都是舞台上的重要角色。

He's absolutely a player on the stage from, politics and an intelligence and a science and a philosophy point of view.

确实精彩，尤其是皇家学会那场戏。我们看到了全新的斯蒂芬。但帕特里克·奥布莱恩仍以独特方式，把这场学术会议变成了《办公室》式的闹剧——约瑟夫爵士为避免公开接触斯蒂芬，拒绝宣读他的论文。

Yeah. It it's fascinating, especially the scene at the Royal Society. You know, we see Stephen in a brand new way. But in the midst of all this, Patrick O'Brien, in his own way, still takes this scene at the Royal Society and and turns it into something fitting for an episode from The Office. You know, Sir Joseph, who's he wants to avoid Steven in public, so he declines to read his paper.

于是另一位成员跳起来宣读本该关于某种昆虫的研究，却很快跑题到他最爱的燕子迁徙（令听众大为懊恼）。这简直像极了我们都经历过的公司会议——让人不禁猜想奥布莱恩心目中的读者画像：他是否曾熬夜或与编辑讨论'我们要吸引那些既痴迷海军历史，又热爱生物学、动物学和植物学的自然哲学家型读者'？

So another member jumps up to read what's supposed to be his finding on some bug and quickly veers off to his favorite topic, not at all the topic he's supposed to be reading about, about the migration of swallows. This much to the chagrin of the audience. And it really sounded a lot like a lot of corporate meetings I think we could both relate to where somebody- And you know, it makes you wonder too, who did Patrick O'Brien see as his readers? Know, can you see Patrick O'Brien sitting up at night or perhaps talking with his editor saying, you know, I know, I know, we're going to go after people who are really interested in naval history who also love biology and zoology and botany, these natural philosopher types.

要说他确实划定了非常小众的领域。但通过马图林这个角色，他相信能吸引所有人——谁不想听听植物学家间谍的故事呢？

Well, he's drawn his niche very, very narrowly. I think it's fair to say if that's the case. But I think he's made a character in Maturin that he thinks everybody will be interested in. Yeah. Who doesn't want to hear about, you know, a botanist spy?

我们见识过各种类型的间谍，现在该听听植物学家间谍了。只要奥布莱恩能把植物学知识和间谍情节都写得出彩，这个独特角色就足以让我们欲罢不能。

We've had every other kind of spy. Let's hear about a botanist spy. And if Patrick O'Brien can do a good job in making the botany convincing and the spy stuff convincing, then we've got a really unique character for us to want to follow along.

是的。而且那个独特角色的伪装可能因为这次公开会议成员的出席而暴露。更令人愤怒的是，我们的老对手——来自《怒海争锋》的哈特上将加剧了这一局面，他始终是杰克心头的一根刺。

Yeah. And that unique character's cover may have been blown with these public members attending the meeting. And infuriatingly, that's aggravated by Admiral Hart, our old nemesis from Master and Commander, who continues to be a thorn in Jack's side.

但与此同时，早些时候与海军情报组的会面对史蒂文来说才是真正的潜在灾难。约瑟夫·布莱恩爵士对此极为重视。尽管史蒂文起初似乎对这种指控嗤之以鼻，认为自己的身份并未暴露，但他至少得稍微认真对待。他反而很乐意接受新任务前往梅诺卡岛，利用他在加泰罗尼亚独立运动中的关系展开独立调查。

But meanwhile, the the earlier meeting with the the, the Admiralty Intelligence Group, that is a real potential disaster for Steven. It Sir Joseph Blain takes it very seriously. Steven has to take it, well, at least a little seriously, although he's he seems at the beginning, I think, to sort of poo poo the suggestion that his that he's been made and that his cover is blown. And he's quite happy to go off on on a new mission to go ashore to Menorca and make inquiries of his own and exploit the the contacts that he has in the world of Catalan independence.

没错，史蒂文似乎认为在约瑟夫爵士提到的那批与会者将消息传到法国和西班牙之前，他能抢先一步。

Yeah, Stephen seems to think he can outrun the news getting to France and Spain, given the people that Sir Joseph had named that were in attendance at that meeting.

完全正确。我在想这是否就是许多情报官员垮台的原因——那种略微过度的自信和近乎鲁莽的胆识。或许我们即将见证这一点。

Absolutely. And I wonder if that's the undoing of many an intelligence officer, that slight excess of confidence and kind of daring. Maybe we're gonna learn about that.

有意思的是，随着我们后续了解到的情报世界，史蒂文发现并向约瑟夫爵士报告至少有一人（可能更多）要么是双重间谍，要么受雇于法国。所以真的很想知道这种傲慢与胆识最终能否让史蒂文得偿所愿。

Oh, neat. You know, it's interesting because with this world of intelligence, as we learn a little bit later, you know, Steven finds out and reports back to Sir Joseph that there's at least one person, perhaps more, that are acting as either double agents or on the payroll of France. So, you know, really wonder if that hubris, if that daring are going to pay off for Stephen.

因此他能否抢在消息扩散前行动至关重要，而这一点终将反噬他。我们注意到奥布莱恩生平有据可查或广为流传的说法——他曾参与二战情报行动。就像让·卢卡的小说那样，我认为存在一个或多个阴影中的双重间谍可能背叛史蒂文、揭露他身份的情节，这将成为后续重点。不过我想聚焦于史蒂文的几场对话：他与索菲那场充满兄妹情谊的谈话淋漓尽致展现了两人性格。

So his ability to outrun the news is going to be critical and that's going to catch up with him at some point. Again, we think there's a there's a known or written about or believed connection in O'Brien's life that he was involved in intelligence operations in World War two. And just like a Jean Lucara novel, I think this idea of there being one or more or several shadowy double agents that could betray Steven and and his identity, I think that's something that we're gonna come back to. But I wanna dip into the conversations that Steven was having. He did have a lovely, very brother sister type conversation with Sophie, which showed a lot about their two characters.

他在得知自己的身份已向海军高层曝光时，与约瑟夫·布莱恩爵士也有场极其坦率的对话。这里体现出我钟爱的史蒂文对话特点——正如我们的朋友杰里米早前所说，奥布莱恩通过对话推进大量剧情和人物塑造。当史蒂文被激怒时，他会连珠炮似地甩出一长串形容词，对人物进行极其复杂的贬损。比如他谈论威廉姆斯夫人那段就是典型。

He also had a very candid conversation with Sir Joseph Blaine as he was learning about this revelation of his identity to higher ups in the Admiralty. And we got something that I love about Steven's dialogue. Our friend Jeremy said earlier on that O'Brien communicates a lot of the story and communicates a lot of character through dialogue. And one of the things about Steven is when he gets riled up, he can come out with these long series of adjectives in a big, big complex put down of a character. So he's talking about missus Williams.

那是杰克未来的岳母，索菲的母亲，也是戴安娜·维利尔斯的姨妈。而他决定公开谴责威廉姆斯夫人。我数了六个形容词。他说，她是个极度愚蠢、爱抱怨、心胸狭窄、贪婪、固执、吝啬至极的守财奴，一个卑劣的吝啬鬼，还是个泼妇。我们可以做个谷歌词频测试。

That's Jack's prospective mother-in-law, the mother of Sophie and the aunt of, Diana Villiers. And he decides to denounce missus Williams. I counted them six adjectives. He says, she's a deeply stupid, griping, illiberal, avid, tenacious, pinch fist lick penny, a sordid lick penny, and a shrew. And we could do the, the Google engram test.

我打赌'泼妇'这个词在19世纪初相当罕见。他继续骂个不停，不是吗？他对约瑟夫爵士的谴责还没完。他说这是有史以来最不浪漫的野兽，拖着它那矮胖笨重的身躯横跨保护地球的表面。

I bet that shrew is a fairly apocite, early nineteenth century word. And he goes on, doesn't he? And he's not done denouncing this woman to Sir Joseph. He says this this is the most unromantic beast that ever urged its squat thick bulk across the face of the protecting earth.

那么，史蒂文，你真实感受如何？

Now, Steven, how do you really feel?

但或许我们正看到，随着他作为情报人员的性格逐渐形成，他会发现越来越难以对人坦诚。他已经因为无法对挚友杰克·奥布里坦诚而惹上麻烦。而能像这样与同为间谍的约瑟夫·布莱克爵士毫无顾忌地畅谈对某人品性的真实看法，想必让他感到解脱。

But maybe we're seeing that in his growing character as an intelligence agent, he's going to find it more and more difficult to be candid with people. He's already got into trouble with not being able to be candid with his best friend Jack Aubrey, And it must be liberating to be able to say what's really on your mind about someone's character in a really unguarded conversation with a fellow spy like Sir Joseph Blake.

是的，这很有趣，因为斯蒂芬·马图林在日常生活中总是努力保持诚实。但作为特工，他发现自己有时不得不欺骗别人。记得在《战船船长》结尾，他对杰克说：我不喜欢有人提醒我这点。

Yeah, it's interesting because Stephen Matron tries so often in his day to day life to be truthful. But he finds as an agent, you know, he has to deceive people sometimes. And I think in Post Captain, we remember at the end he told Jack, you know, I don't like anybody bringing this to my attention.

哦，确实。

Oh, yes.

他是个极具魅力的角色，这种奇妙的组合——有时是彬彬有礼的社交典范，有时又彻底邋遢不堪；是个天才，却像爱因斯坦那样有点古怪，甚至会忘记穿裤子。而且随时可能变成脾气暴躁的老顽固。你看他与约瑟夫爵士关于威廉姆斯夫人的争论，稍后又...

And he is this just fascinating character, this amazing combination of a gracious, you know, really very proper socially at times, other times an absolute mess, you know, a genius, but an Einstein that's a little bit like a flake, you know, sometimes forgetting his pants. And, you know, at any given moment, a really cantankerous curmudgeon. You know, we've got his discussion with Sir Joseph about Mrs. Williams. And then a little bit later, you know, Mrs.

威廉姆斯截获了索菲的一封信，她以为是杰克写的，实际上是斯蒂芬的信。她正在读信，斯蒂芬在信中向她致意并送上祝福，问候她的母亲，还提到在存钱。听说她们要去巴斯，他非常高兴，希望能去拜访她。威廉姆斯夫人说，这是个多么优秀的男人啊。

Williams has intercepted one of Sophie's letters, which she thinks is from Jack, but it's actually from Stephen. And she's reading it through, and Stephen is giving her his compliments and best wishes and asking after her mother and saving money. So glad to hear they're going to be in Bath. He hopes to call upon her and Mrs. Williams is saying, what a wonderful man.

他岂不是塞西莉亚的绝佳丈夫人选？你知道的，等我们到了巴斯，就让他们单独相处。所以斯蒂芬，这个男人各方面都很出色。

Wouldn't he be a great husband for Cecilia? You know, leave them alone together when we get to Bath. So Stephen, a man of all kinds of things here.

很棒。与此同时，所有这些行动都在伦敦和英格兰南部的岸上进行，涉及斯蒂芬、伦敦当局以及威廉姆斯一家。与此同时，杰克在海上。他仍是HMS活泼号的代理舰长，这艘护卫舰专业操控得当，装备完美无瑕。

It's great. Now, meanwhile, all this action's going on ashore in London and in Southern England between Stephen and the authorities in London and the Williams family. Jack meanwhile is at sea. He's still the acting captain of HMS Lively. This very professionally well handled, very, immaculately turned out frigate.

坏消息是他们并没有按照奥布莱恩喜欢的方式执行护卫舰任务。他们正在封锁土伦，这是严酷、单调且艰苦的服役。这种服役方式在拿破仑战争期间，我想是双方海军官兵生活中非常普遍的特征。C.S.福雷斯特花了很多时间让霍恩布洛尔执行封锁任务，而帕特里克·奥布莱恩选择不这么做。我想你能明白为什么，因为这最终是单调的。

Bad news is they're not really doing frigate duty in the way that Aubrey likes it. They're blockading Toulon, this is grim, monotonous hard grinding service. This is the kind of service that was the feature of lots and lots of the lives I think of naval servicemen on both sides in the Napoleonic Wars. CS Forrester spent quite a lot of time putting a hornblower in blockade duty, and Patrick O'Brien chooses not to. And I guess you can see why because it is monotonous in the end.

所以他精心挑选时机，告诉我们这种封锁任务到底有多严酷。我真的很喜欢对一名担任瞭望任务或在桅顶的见习军官的描述。他们通过谈论食物来表达他们的饥饿、匮乏以及与世隔绝的感觉。其中一人说，哦，香肠。香肠，他在凝视时迎着密史脱拉风喊道。

So he chooses his moments carefully for telling us just how grim this blockading service really is. I I really like the description of, a midshipman on lookout duty or somewhere up in in the top. And they express all of their their starvation and their hunger and their deprivation and their sense of isolation from the world by talking about food. And one of them says, oh, sausage. Sausage, he cried above the mistral as he stared.

热乎乎的，脆生生的，咬下去汁水四溅。培根，蘑菇。我们再也没听到这些见习军官的消息。但他们扮演了一个非常可爱的角色，说出了人们渴望的东西。而且写得非常优美，用词也极具诗意。

Hot, crisp, squirting with juice as you bite them. Bacon, mushrooms. We never hear from these midshipmen again. But they played this really lovely role in saying this is what people were longing for. And it's beautifully written, very, very poetic use of the words as well.

是的。我很喜欢那段关于香肠的引述。我怀疑我们中一些处于隔离期、难以去杂货店的人，听起来也有类似的愿望。这直接出自一名见习军官之口，你知道的。然后这些次要角色的见习军官，奥布莱恩又一次出色地赋予了他们生命。

Yeah. I love that quote with the sausages. I suspect that some of us in the midst of quarantine here who are having a hard time getting out to grocery stores and that, it sounded like some of our wishes as well. It comes right out of the mouth of a midshipman, you know. And then these midshipmen minor characters again that O'Brien does such a wonderful job bringing to life.

而且

And

在杰克眼中，没有比海军学员更微不足道的了。他们简直不适合人类或野兽。

none more minor in Jack's eyes than a midshipman. They're not fit for man or beast.

杰克其实记得自己作为海军学员的成长经历，正如我们即将在书中看到的，我们会稍微回忆一下他的学员生涯。尽管他身处封锁舰队这样活跃的环境中，正如你指出的那样，伊恩，他们的学员仍有许多需要学习。

Jack remembers coming up as a midshipman, actually, you know, as we're gonna find out, we're gonna reminisce a little bit about his midshipman life in this book. And even though the lively where he is, as as you point out Ian, in this blockading, You know, even their midshipmen still have a lot to learn.

不过请注意，他正在尽力纠正这一点，不是吗？

Mind you, he's doing his best to correct that though, isn't he?

是的，这很迷人。他既当老师，也旁听他们的课程。我特别喜欢这部分——当他专门参加他们的航海课时，被这种更科学、更务实的活跃氛围所感染，奥布莱恩称之为非常辉格党式的高效舰船。他现在正学习他所谓的球面三角学原理，并欣喜地发现这些年轻时觉得困难的知识，如今成年后理解了其用途，他真正掌握了并为此兴奋不已。

Yeah, it's fascinating. He's acting as teacher, he's also sitting in on their classes. And I love this part where, as he's attending specifically their navigation classes, and getting impacted by this lively atmosphere of more scientific, business like, O'Brien calls it a very Whig like, you know, efficient ship. He finds himself now learning these, you know, what he calls the principles of spherical trigonometry. And he's really delighted that these things that were so hard for him as a youth, now as an adult and kind of seeing the purpose of it, he's really getting it and thrilled with it.

而他因学会这些知识而自我陶醉时，立刻想到了斯蒂芬。他说：‘哦，斯蒂芬会有多惊讶啊，’他想着，‘我要用哲学家的姿态让他折服，多希望这老伙计能在这儿。’这让我想到，我们都渴望生命中有见证者，渴望被欣赏，尤其是被挚友和所爱之人欣赏。

And his being thrilled with himself at learning this immediately brings to mind Stephen. And he says, Oh, how amazed Stephen will be, he reflected. How I shall commit the philosopher over him and how I wish the old soul were here. You know, it just reminds me, you know, we all want to be we want witnesses for our lives. We want to be appreciated, especially by our good friends and our loved ones.

太对了。哦，这非常温馨，非常非常温馨。我喜欢帕特里克·奥布莱恩将这一点融入杰克的性格中，虽然它并不一定推动故事情节发展。

So true. Oh, it's very sweet. Very, very sweet. And I love that Patrick O'Brien has added this as a piece of Jack's character. It doesn't necessarily play a part in the story.

这为杰克·奥布里的形象增添了一层复杂性。他在马萨诸塞州属于大器晚成者。但你能看出，我猜他应该处于成熟期的青壮年阶段。我们中有多少人没学过某个学科的新分支，或培养过新爱好，或发展出某种新癖好？这些特质让他比那些只会挥剑的纸板动作英雄有趣得多。

It adds an extra sort of wrinkle to the portrait of Jack Aubrey. He's a late developer in Mass. But you can see that in, I guess he must be in maturityearly middle age. How many of us have not learned a a new branch of some subject or other or acquired a new hobby or acquired a new kind of kink? And that makes him more interesting than just a cardboard cutout sword wielding action hero.

没错。他现在是个航海技术突飞猛进的动作英雄——这在小说后期会派上大用场。看来'活泼号'的整体氛围对他确实大有裨益。

Yeah. Yeah. He's he's now an action hero, who can navigate a lot better, which he's gonna need to be able to do later in this in this novel. So it seems like the whole atmosphere of the Lively is is really good for him.

因此他能高效地从A点抵达B点，对西地中海海域了如指掌。他还获得最后一次独立行动机会，几乎像是杰克·奥布里终于能卷起袖子，带领'活泼号'这群略显平庸但训练有素的船员展开真正的岸上行动。他在一个叫旺德尔港的城镇发动突袭——说来也巧，七八个月前我刚去过旺德拉港，当时正在科利乌尔村度假。令我惊喜的是，书中虽未点名却明显出现了这个村庄。在汤姆·霍恩的canonade.net网站（帕特里克·奥布莱恩地理标注项目）上，他也指出那支作为佯攻的突击队造访的渔村很可能就是科利乌尔。

So he's able to get from point a to point b really effectively. He knows the Western Mediterranean really, really well. And he gets the chance to do one last bit of detached duty, which almost seems like, you know, Jack Aubrey can roll up his sleeves, lead the slightly pedestrian but well polished crew of the lively into some real action ashore. He does this raid in a town called Port Vendre, and I can claim that about seven or eight months ago I was in Port Vondra and I was in Port Vondra because I was having a vacation staying in the village of Collioure and I love the fact that the village of Collioure without being named actually shows up in the story. If you go on Tom Horn's canonade.net website, the Patrick O'Brien mapping project, he also pointed out that the village that was visited by a raiding party as kind of a distraction or a faint move, it's probably Collioure.

几乎可以确定就是科利乌尔，就在旺德尔港隔壁的海湾。

It's almost certainly Collioure, the next bay around from Port Of Ondre.

正是。这里就是帕特里克·奥布莱恩创作这些小说时的居住地。

Exactly. This is Patrick O'Brien's home when he was writing these books.

没错。科利乌尔在帕特里克构思中可能还部分影射了虚构的英国港口谢尔马斯顿——这个中世纪原始渔港在后期剧情中至关重要。

It is. That's right. Collier, I I also think might be partly a model in Patrick's mind for the harbor, the British harbor of Shellmuston, which is fictitious. That plays a big part in the later stages. It's a little medieval, unspoiled fishing port.

这里从来不是商业航运要地，也非军事重镇。法国南岸向来有土伦、马赛这类大型军港。但科利乌尔只是个带小防波堤的古老渔港，有着迷人的小港湾和城堡。以我站在科利乌尔海岸的亲身经历，很容易让人恍如置身十九世纪初。

Wouldn't ever have been a big deal for commercial shipping. Wouldn't ever have been a big deal for the military. And there are plenty of big ports on the South Coast Of France that have always been military ports like Toulon and Marseille, for example. But Colliou is a little old fishing port with a little breakwater and a little lovely little harbor and a castle. And it's very easy from my experience standing on the shore of Colliou, very easy to imagine that you're that you're still back the early nineteenth century.

对于生活在二十世纪六十年代的奥布莱恩来说，想象自己回到十九世纪初一定非常容易。这里有着加泰罗尼亚的精髓。你知道，这里是法国境内文化上、甚至语言上都近乎加泰罗尼亚的地区，紧邻如今属于西班牙的加泰罗尼亚边境。我墙上挂着一幅科利乌尔的画，本周晚些时候我会在推特账号上分享。不过这可不仅仅是一篇游记。

And it must have been really easy for O'Brien living there in the nineteen sixties to imagine himself back in the early nineteenth century. It has a Catalan essence to it. You know, this is the culturally and almost linguistically Catalan part of France just over the border from the border with Catalonia, is now part of Spain. I've got a picture of Collioure on my wall, I will tweet that out, on the Twitter account later on this week. Now it's not just a travelogue though.

杰克正在给家里写信，用相当轻松的语气向索菲描述发生的行动，他是如何组建这支突击队，以及各种分散注意力的佯攻和战术。对杰克·奥布里来说，这几乎是办公室的日常，但最终却演变成一场血腥行动。书中对非欧洲船员——尤其是参与这次突袭行动的中国和马来船员——的行为描写令人不寒而栗。杰克原本不确定他们会如何表现，结果证明他们非常清楚该怎么做。

Jack is writing home describing in quite light tones to Sophie the action that's taken place and how he put together this raiding party and the various kinds of distractions and feints and maneuvers. And this is almost a regular day at the office for Jack Aubrey, but it's quite a bloody action in the end. And we have this really chilling description of the action of the non Europeans, particularly Chinese and Malay crew members who go along on this raiding expedition. And Jack's not really sure of how they're going to behave, but it turns out that they really know how to behave.

是的。当他们接近敌船时，你知道，他们发出了欢呼，但其他人都保持沉默。但他们潜入水中，游到船底，从两侧浮上来，这些可能是前海盗的中国和马来船员展现出令人难以置信的隐秘和杀戮效率。他们既激发了杰克的钦佩，又让他感到恶心。奥布莱恩写道：'固定那张帆，转舵下压，把俘虏押到前舱去。'

Yeah. And as they pull up to the enemy boat, you know, they give a cheer, but everybody else is quiet. But they dive in, they swim underneath, they come up around the sides, and there's this incredible stealth and killing efficiency as what are probably former pirates, this Chinese and Malay crew. They both kindle Jack's admiration and sicken him. O'Brien writes, belay that sheet there, down with her helm, prisoners to the forehatch.

邦丁震惊地回答：'没有俘虏了，长官。'接着布莱恩描述甲板上一片鲜红。中国人两两蹲着，有条不紊地剥光死者。马来人把头颅整齐地堆成炮弹般的圆堆。这样的描写持续了很久。

And Bondin's shocked reply, there ain't no prisoners, sir. And Brian then describes this deck, you know, it's bright red. The Chinamen are squatting in pairs, methodically stripping the dead. The melees are piling the heads in neat heaps like round shot. And it goes on and on here.

杰克回想着过去经历过的激烈战斗场面。但奥布莱恩写道：'他感到胃部抽搐翻涌。这次行动专业至极，却让他对自己的职业感到恶心。'是的，这是我们首次窥见杰克对这种个人间直接暴力行为的反应。

Jack is thinking back to some pretty dramatic action scenes in his past. But O'Brien says, he felt his stomach close and heave. The taking was professional, as professional as anything could be, and it sickened him with his trade. Yeah. This is one of the first of several glimpses that we get into about Jack's reaction to this personal and interpersonal, directly interpersonal violence.

是啊。

Yeah.

有趣的是，正如你指出的，我们是通过杰克写给索菲的信了解到这些。他不知道该如何表达这些事，也意识到不想告诉索菲任何细节——他希望她心目中的海上生活应该是美好的。也许战斗会带来些伤口，但你看不见它们。它们只是伤亡名单上的数字。虽然他想告诉索菲这些，也许杰克自己也想相信某些部分。

And, you know, it's funny because we're learning about this, as you pointed out, we're learning about this as Jack's writing a letter to Sophie, and he doesn't know quite how to express this. And he realizes he doesn't want to tell Sophie anything about this, that, you know, for her life at sea should be pretty good. Maybe there are some wounds in a battle, but you can't see them. They really are just numbers on a casualty list. And while he wants to tell Sophie this, maybe Jack wants to believe some of this himself.

确实震撼。我们之前见证了'波吕克瑞斯特'号、'索菲'号和'活力'号的种种行动，但真正让他措手不及的，是这场冷酷无情、充满恶意的贴身肉搏战。

Really striking. We've had all of this action so far with the Polycrest and the Sophie and the Lively, but it's this really kind of cold hand to hand personal combat with real callousness that sets him sets him back on his heels.

是啊是啊。杰克的反应非常强烈。后来在船上，另一个人也产生了极其强烈的反应，但性质完全不同。

Yeah. Yeah. So Jack has a really strong reaction. And then later on the boat, somebody else has a very strong reaction, but of a different flavor altogether.

另一位深受震撼并认为这是针对自己的人，是斯图亚特船长的勤务兵普雷泽维德·基利克——程度完全不同。我太爱这段台词了，多年来一直想找人朗读它。这是基利克在清理修补船长血迹斑斑的装备时的独白：'外套被撕破五处，前臂还有弯刀砍痕——这叫我怎么缝补？弹孔全烧焦了...'

Well, the other person who's shocked and takes it personally, but on a completely different level is Preserved Killick, the captain Stuart. I've I love this speech and I've wanted to say it out loud to somebody for years and years and years. So I'm gonna say this is this is Killick sorting through cleaning up and repairing the the captain's gear after this rather bloody action. Kiss a coat torn in five places, cutlass slash in her forearm, which how can I ever darn that? Bullet hole all singed.

现在得把火药渍弄掉。到处都是破口和污血，活像在蕾丝门帘里打过滚。夫人会怎么说？'我不知道，长官。上帝啊，让我瞎了眼吧。'

Now we get the powder marks out. Breaches all a hoo and all this nasty blood everywhere like you've been wallowing in a lace door. What would miss say? I don't know, sir. God, strike me blind.

肩章也废了。彻底报废。哦天哪，这日子过的。我就喜欢基利克这个角色通过这些暴躁、牢骚、倔强的台词展现出来的性格。

Eppolet's act. Fair act to pieces. Oh, Jesus. What a life. So I just love the way, Kilik's character comes through in the grumpy, grouchy, cussed things that he says.

是啊。

Yeah.

杰克向索菲讲述这段经历时充满希望与喜悦，正如你所说，他即将重逢老友。他将航行至梅诺卡岛——而杰克刻意淡化了梅诺卡现已归属法国的事实。当然，《亚眠和约》签订后，虽然《怒海争锋》时代马翁港还属英国，现在已落入法国之手。斯蒂芬已上岸。完成休整和突袭行动的'活力'号奉命在马翁近海巡航，准备在某个海滩接应斯蒂芬。

So Jack's gone through this experience that he's recounting to Sophie, and he's really hopeful and elated, as you say, that he's gonna encounter his old friend. He gets to sail to Menorca, and Jack's really playing down the fact that Menorca is now a French possession. Of course, we've we've had the peace of Amiens. So whereas in master and commander, Mahon was a British port, it's now in the hands of the French, and Stephen's been ashore. The Lively, having had its run ashore and its cutting out expedition, is detached to go to sail off and on off the shore of Mahon and to pick Stephen up on a beach.

杰克在沙滩上踱步，并不特别担心斯蒂芬的去向，也不指望他能准时赴约，想到要与久别重逢的朋友见面，心情十分轻松愉快。

And Jack's walking up and down this beach, not particularly worried about where Stephen might be, not expecting him to be on time, really lighthearted at the idea of meeting his friend after quite a long spell apart.

是啊，这次完全不同。在早期小说中，我们知道杰克当时尚未认识到斯蒂芬的能力。而现在他发现斯蒂芬作为特工在陆地上的表现与在手术室里一样出色，他虽不担心，但这次行动可能不会那么顺利。

Yeah, and it's so different. In an earlier novel, we knew Jack really didn't have the appreciation at that point for Steven's capabilities. And now he figures that Steven is just as good on the land as an agent as he is in the surgery, and he's not worried, but it might not turn out as well this time.

杰克的美好期待即将被打破。尽管他开始意识到斯蒂芬是个足智多谋的家伙——甚至可能高估了这点——但对即将降临的灾难毫无察觉。当他在黑暗的沙滩上等待时，当地马汉加泰罗尼亚活动家马里加尔跌跌撞撞地从暗处出现，说出了几个只有斯蒂芬知道的暗语，并告知：他被抓了，正在遭受酷刑。

And Jack's happy expectations are going to be overturned. Jack, although he's begun to realize that Steven's a very resourceful fellow, maybe even plays that too high in his mind. He has no idea of the disaster that's coming because as he's waiting on the beach in the dark, out of the dark stumbles this guy Marigal, a local Mahan Catalan activist who mentions a couple of keywords known only to Steven and says, he's been taken. He's been tortured.

没错。杰克听着马里加尔的汇报，正权衡对策。奥布莱恩笔下的杰克有着索菲深爱的少年般顽皮天性，但作者也指出，在这种时刻，没人会相信他还有这一面。

Yeah. And Jack's listening to Marigal. He's trying to decide what to do. And O'Brien writes about Jack, that he has this youthful, playful side, which Sophie loves, you know, this kind of younger side. But he notes that at times like this, nobody looking at Jack would ever believe in that.

你看，此刻的杰克全神贯注。他正在谋划战略，准备迅速行动，面对需要立即应对的灾难。这个杰克可不是我们有时在陆地上见到的那个略显笨拙的杰克。

You know, here's the Jack who is intense. He's plotting strategy. He's ready to go quickly into action. He's facing calamities that require an immediate response. And this Jack is not that perhaps a little bit inept Jack that we sometimes see on land.

于是杰克准备出发。活泼号军官们来找杰克，他们真心想参与这次行动。他们喜欢斯蒂芬，现在也对杰克充满敬爱。但杰克不愿让他们冒险参与这次私人任务。凭借迅速制定的计划，杰克甘愿为斯蒂芬献出生命，但不愿拖所有人下水。

So Jack's ready to go. The Lively's officers come to Jack and they really want to be part of this mission. They're fond of Steven. You know, they really now have a great fondness for Jack, but Jack won't risk them on this personal mission. With his very fast and quickly unfolding plan, You know, Jack thinks nothing about laying down his own life for Stephen, but is not going to pull everybody else into this.

奥布莱恩作品中有很多圣经典故，这里虽未引用，但我不禁想到这句话：人为朋友舍命，人的爱心没有比这个更大的。

And, you know, O'Brien uses many biblical references. He doesn't use one here, but I know for me it came to mind this, a greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

这正是故事此刻的关键所在，不是吗？这与高层战略或军旅生活毫无关系。这是一个男人在说：我的朋友身处险境，值得我冒生命危险去救他。

That's absolutely where this moment in the story is, isn't it? This is nothing to do with high strategy or military life. This is one man saying my friend's in danger and it's worth my life to go to go help him.

是的。而且你看到这里——他望着马利高德时仿佛在思考：我能信任他吗？我记得马利高德甚至直接点破说'你在怀疑是否能信任我吧'。而杰克回应道：听着，史蒂文信任你。

Yeah. And and and you see this. It's like he's looking at Marigold thinking, you know, can I trust him? And and I think Marigold even at one point says, you know, you're wondering if if you can trust me or something. And Jack says, look, Steven trusts you.

这就足够了。奥布莱恩在整个系列中贯穿的这种友谊纽带实在令人惊叹。

That's all I need to know. And it really, this this bond of friendship that O'Brien infuses throughout this canon is just amazing.

读起来很美妙吧？不过我们不能只停留在朋友互助的情节里，因为很快——我记得马利高德指出——为了确保留在情报界的每个人和梅诺卡岛上所有人的安全，我们必须把这次行动变成集体营救。这样才能像史蒂文在伦敦海军部会议上暴露身份前那样，尽可能隐藏他作为特工的真实身份。杰克不久后也意识到这点，他正在逐渐理解史蒂文所处的这个情报世界的运作规则。

It's wonderful to read about, isn't it? Mind you, we can't stay with just one friend looking after another friend the whole time because very quickly, and Marigall I think points out that for this to be safe for everybody who's left behind in the world of intelligence and everybody who's left behind in Menorca, We need to make this a rescue of everybody so that Steven's identity as an agent can be kept hopefully under wraps as it wasn't in the admiralty meeting in London. So we need to make this a general jailbreak and Jack realizes this after not too long and he's maturing into his understanding of what kind of world it is, this world of intelligence that Steven operates in.

没错，本质上这是截然不同的——我们不能留下任何活口。不能让任何人指认史蒂文是特工，或透露他们是来营救史蒂文的。这个场景发展得极快且残酷，以第一人称叙述，再次让杰克直面这种个人暴力冲击。要知道杰克向来以特定方式对待同僚军官，但此刻他不得不打破这种准则。

Yeah, and it's very different by virtue of essentially, we can't leave anybody behind. We can't, you know, we can't have anybody that can identify Steven as the agent or the fact that they came to get Steven. And so this situation, this scene evolves, it's fast, it's brutal, it's written in the first person, and it's another time that this personal violence really gets to Jack. You know, Jack has this way of treating fellow officers. And on the one hand, he can't treat them necessarily this way.

但另一方面，他也看到那些资深军官的所作所为——当杰克想要成为恪守荣誉之人时，却发现这里充斥着大量骇人听闻的暴行。

But on the other hand, you know, he also is seeing officers who were established officers and realizing what they've been doing here that, you know, whereas Jack wants to be, you know, a man of honor, what he finds here is really a lot of horror.

确实。他对那个法国军官充满鄙夷与愤怒——对方短暂地以荣誉为借口说'我不能给上级写假信，这有违我的荣誉'。杰克指着同个房间里那些刑具（正是这名军官使用的）厉声道：别跟我谈什么荣誉。随后当然会发生由杰克及其同僚施加的暴力，但那是一种冷酷的、非个人化的新型暴力，对杰克而言也是全新体验。

Yeah. And he's really disdainful and angry of this French officer who momentarily leans on his his honor and says I can't write a false letter to my commanding officer that would be against my honor and Jack is looking at the instruments of torture in the same room where this officer has been operating and says don't talk to me about your honor. And then, of course, there's gonna be violence meted out by Jack and his colleagues, and that's a different cold, impersonal kind of violence as well that's that's new for Jack.

是的。再次强调，这种近距离的人身暴力让杰克深感不安。军官对同僚施加的酷刑，营救行动中必要的迅猛暴力，最终不是以象征性的缴械仪式结束，而是以现场无人生还、不留俘虏告终。当杰克带斯蒂芬回船时，他倚着舵轮说道（奥布莱恩写道）：'上帝作证，若重来我仍会这样做。'锋利的浪花刺痛了他疲惫发红的双眼。

Yeah. Again, this close personal violence really disturbs Jack. The torture, that was carried on by officers against other officers, the swift violence needed in the rescue, not ending up with kind of the ceremonial exchange of swords, but ending up with everybody dead there, leaving no prisoners. As he takes Stephen back to the ship, Jack says, O'Brien writes, God knows I should do the same again, said Jack, leaning on the helm to close her. The keen spray stinging his tired, reddened eyes.

但我觉得需要整片海洋才能洗净我的罪孽。

But I feel I need the whole sea to clean me.

他能如愿以偿吗？我想帕特里克·奥布莱恩已为我们埋下伏笔。这就是我们下回要继续探讨的——是时候让杰克探索西地中海之外的世界了，是时候让杰克和史蒂文稍作休整了，或许也该让我们重新关注岸上的女士们，看看她们那边的情况了。

And may he get it? I think Patrick O'Brien has that in store for us. So I think that's gonna be where we'll pick it up next time. It's time for Jack to explore beyond the Western Med. It's time for Jack and Steven to recover themselves a little bit, and maybe it's time for us to pick back up with the ladies on shore and see what's going on there.

我们下回揭晓。你觉得呢迈克？下次要不要继续？再来点帕特里克·奥布莱恩的作品？

We'll find out next time. What do you think, Mike? Should we have next time perhaps? A little bit more Patrick O'Brien?

噢，当然。全心全意赞成。还有比这更难的挑战吗？我就喜欢这样。我能胜任。

Oh, yes. With all my heart. Does it get harder than that? I like that. I could do that.

没错，正是如此。

Yeah, that's right.