埃马纽埃尔·阿乔：一场不舒适的对话

我这辈子从来没喝过酒。

I've never drank a day in my life.

对吧？

Right?

从来没喝过酒精饮料。

Never drank alcohol.

显然，我从来没抽过烟，也没碰过那些乱七八糟的东西。

Obviously, I've never, you know, smoked, never done all that jazz.

所以我一直非常注重自律，管好自己的身体。

So I've just I'm very I discipline my body.

我告诉自己该做什么。

I tell myself what to do.

它（身体）不会告诉我该做什么。

It doesn't tell me what to do.

正因为如此，这已经帮我避免了90%原本可能会犯的错误。

And so for that, that's just that now has eliminated like 90% of errors that I just would have made.

我这样跟你说吧，莉兹。

I'll put it like this, Liz.

我所能给出的最简洁的说法是，我觉得你会后悔，那种你没有计算过利弊的决定。

The best, the most succinct way I can say this is I feel like you would regret, the figurative you would regret a decision you didn't calculate the benefits or consequences of.

但你真的认为自己理性地掌控了你所做的一切吗？

But we're not in you think you're like rationally in control of everything you've ever done?

如果你认真想想的话

Like like if you really think about it

你真的想让我回答吗？

Do you really want me to answer?

不想。

No.

再讲一个

One more

事情。

thing.

事情。

Thing.

我们都很好。

We're all good.

我听过你那么多访谈。

You're I've listened to so many interviews.

你的整个观点就是无意识偏见和无意识种族主义，对吧？

Your whole thing is like unconscious bias and unconscious racism, right?

我们做的很多事情都是无意识的。

Like a lot of the things that we do are not conscious.

所以你在谈论的时候，好像你每一个行为都是有意识、理性掌控的，但其实我们有很多事情是无意识的。

And so you're talking like, like as if you, every single action that you've ever done is this like, you're aware and rationally in control of, but there's so much that we're not.

好的。

Okay.

所以当你谈到这一点时，我认为我确实忽视了很多事情，对吧？

So when you're talking about that aspect, I do think there are a lot of things I've been ignorant of, right?

我在意图这一点上划了一条线，因为生活中很多事情对我来说都关乎意图。

Like I'm kind of drawing a line there around intention because so many things for me in life are about intention.

所以我会同意，很可能在无意中，我做过一些连我自己都没察觉的事情。

And so I would agree in that there's probably a ton like unintentionally, I've probably done some stuff that may not have even surfaced back to me.

所以你明白我的意思吗？

And thus you know what I mean?

无意中，我肯定做过很多这样的事。

Like, unintentionally, I'm sure I've done a lot.

但有意识地去做，至少我想不出有多少件。

But intentionally, at least not a ton that I

我能想到的。

can think of.

好的。

Okay.

行吧。

Alright.

稍等一下。

Hold that thought.

我们来付些账单。

Let's pay some bills.

我们马上回来，继续《真汉子》。

We will be right back with Man Enough.

作为白人，坐在这里我觉得很有趣，因为我对意图的理解大多来自黑人群体。

It's interesting as a white person for me at the table because so much of what I've learned about intention has come from black folks

嗯。

Mhmm.

以及意图与影响之间的区别。

And the difference between intention and impact.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尤其是这位先生

Especially this guy

嗯。

Mhmm.

就在这儿。

Right here.

我有过很好的意图，但也造成过不良影响。

I've had some great intentions, but I've had some bad impact.

嗯。

Mhmm.

听你们的对话对我来说很有趣，尤其是听你讲，但你也是大家的黑人朋友。

It's interesting for me to hear the conversation, especially from you, but you're also everybody's black friend.

大家的。

Everybody's.

大家的黑人朋友，这肯定也是一种负担。

Everybody's black friend, which is also a burden, I'm sure.

这并不容易。

And it's got a it's not easy.

但你们的对话让我不必去问我的一位黑人朋友。

But your conversations helped me not have to, you know, ask one of my black friends.

谢谢。

Thanks.

不客气。

You're welcome.

但我非常自豪。

But very proud.

感谢你。

Appreciate you.

尤其是我们其他几位朋友。

More so a few more so a few of our other friends.

但意图、影响和对话很有趣，因为我觉得丽兹想表达的是，我要把这一点拉回到我自己身上。

But but the intention impact conversation is interesting because I think what Liz was getting at is and I'm gonna just bring this back to me.

所以我一生中大部分时间都戴着盔甲。

So I've spent so much of my life with the armor on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，作为男性，我们常常试图用理性来应对生活。

And I think as men, we can so often try to rationalize our way through life.

我们试图用计算来走过人生，但生活中最美好的时刻，往往是那些无法计算的时刻。

We can try to calculate our way through life, but so much of the most beautiful moments in our life are the uncalculatable moments.

那些你无法准备的时刻，那些充满学习的时刻。

The moments that you can't prepare for, the moments where there's learning.

因为如果我们事事计算、事事准备，又如何能真正地活在当下，让学习突然击中我们呢？

Because if we're calculating everything, we're preparing for everything, then how are we able to actually to actually just be, you know, to have that learning hit us in the face?

问题是，以这种方式生活，代价是什么？

The question is, like, at what cost is it to just live in that manner?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道我想知道什么，但每件事都有它的代价。

I don't I don't know what I want to know, but at what everything comes with a cost.

不计算的代价是什么？

What's the cost of not calculating?

因为你不计算，我认为回报是自由。

Because not you're not calculating, I think the prize is freedom.

我想我是

Think I was

正要说出来

gonna say it

是自由。

was freedom.

是的。

Yeah.

在某些方面，我认为这是个错误的问题。

In some ways, I think it's the wrong question.

我认为问题应该是，不计算的回报是什么？

I think the question is what's the reward of not calculating?

那

That

但你难道不觉得吗？事情是这样的。

is but don't you have to, like so here's the thing.

我刚和卡马鲁·乌斯曼聊过。

Was talking to, Kamaru Usman.

卡马鲁·乌斯曼是当之无愧的全球最强选手。

Kamaru Usman is pound for pound, like, the baddest man in the world.

UFC。

UFC.

我认为他是次中量级冠军。

I think he's a welterweight champion.

尼日利亚猫。

Nigerian cat.

致敬我的尼日利亚朋友。

Shout out to my Nigerian.

是的，先生。

Yes, sir.

我问他了这个问题。

And I asked him this question.

问题。

Question.

哦，这句话会一直伴随着我，终生难忘。

I oh, it'll stick with me, like, for life.

我问他，当你走进拳台时，你在想什么？

I asked him, when you get into the ring, what are you thinking about?

而且你们要知道，这是综合格斗界综合实力最强的人。

And mind you, y'all, this is pound for pound the baddest person in the world.

他告诉我，他说：我在想不要输，因为对我来说，对失败的恐惧比胜利的喜悦更强烈。

And he said to me, he said, I think about not losing because he's like, For me, the fear of failure is stronger than the thrill of victory.

我不知道。

And I don't know.

我就是这样生活的。

I live life like that.

所以当你关注回报时，我关注的是失败。

So while you look at the reward, I'm looking at the failure.

我唯一要反驳的是，这两个人身处笼中，我认为这象征着我们所有人，作为男人和父权社会下的处境。

The only difference that I'd push back on is that these are two men in a cage, which I believe is a metaphor for all of us right now as men and the patriarchy.

你实际上是在描述两个必须决斗至死的男人。

You're literally referencing two men in a cage that have to fight to the death.

我相信，这正是全球男性正在经历的——我们都被困在笼子里。

And I believe that's what's happening to us men all over the world is we're in a cage.

我们正处于战斗或逃跑模式，这让我们出于恐惧而非爱来做决定。

We are, we are in our fight or flight mode and it's causing us to make decisions from fear and not from love.

而根本原因，尤其是你，因为你用了基督教的表达方式，对吧？

And the root cause, especially you because you spoke Christianese, right?

我暂且用巴哈伊的视角说一下，我们是被上帝以爱创造的，且按祂的形象所造。

I'll speak Baha'i knees for a second, understanding that we were created in the image of God out of love.

所以爱必须驱动我们的行动。

So love has to motivate our actions.

巴哈伊信仰中，阿博都-巴哈说，爱从不驻留在被恐惧占据的心中。

And the Baha'i Faith, the 'Abdu'l Baha says love never dwelleth in a heart possessed by fear.

你不可能同时拥有恐惧和爱。

You can't have fear and love at the same time.

总得有一个胜出。

Like one's got to win.

如果我们做决定是因为害怕自己不够好，那么我相信这实际上源于一种匮乏感。

So if our decisions are calculated because we're we're, we're afraid of not being something, then that I believe is actually coming from a place of not enoughness.

让我这么说。

Let me say this.

我很高兴你在这里。

I love that you're here.

我很欣赏你分享这些内容，因为进行这样的对话，我们希望触及所有人、所有男性，而我们并非都持有相同的观点。

I love that you're sharing what you're sharing because I'm, because having this conversation, we wanna reach all people, all men, and we all don't think the same.

我的意思是，我们真的准备好坦诚相见了吗？

I mean, we are we we we're okay to get real?

咱们来点真实的吧。

Let's get it real.

说实话，我觉得十分钟前我们就已经很真实了。

Honestly, I thought we were real ten minutes ago.

难道我们这段时间不够真实吗？

Have we not been real this long?

不够。

No.

不够。

No.

不够。

No.

我没事。

I'm okay.

我走可以吗？

You okay for me to go

更真实点？

More real?

好的。

Okay.

那我再深入一点。

So let me go deeper.

顺便说一句，我想说一下。

By the way, let me just say this.

我们本来有一大堆问题要聊，但连第一个都没碰到。

We had a whole list of questions to talk about that we haven't gotten to the first one.

好。

K.

我们会说到的。

We'll get to it.

嗯，我们可能

Well, we probably

不会。

won't.

我们我们

We we

不会让这次对话变得精彩。

won't make this a great conversation.

好吧，我们

Well, we

我们可以谈这个。

can get to it.

顺便说一下，我很享受这次对话。

I'm enjoying this, by the way.

所以这就是为什么我想向你们分享这个。

So this is why I, this is why, what I wanna ask, share with you this.

但当我25岁的时候，我开始参加一个叫做黑人男性集会的活动。

But when I was 25 years old, I started going to this, gathering called the Black Men's Gathering.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们为什么要这么做？

Why do we do this?

并不是为了让黑人男性聚在一起抱怨。

It wasn't so that black men can get together and complain.

也不是为了贬低白人或其他人。

It wasn't so we could talk bad about white people or the other.

而是为了让你想象一支交响乐团，里面有弦乐、铜管、木管和打击乐，所有这些部分。

It was so that, you know, you've got a, imagine an orchestra, and you've got strings and horns and you've got woodwinds and you've got percussion and you've got all these pieces.

交响乐团的意义在于所有部分共同演奏。

The point of the orchestra is all to sing together.

但有时候，弦乐部分需要单独聚在一起，是的。

But there are times that the strings need to get together by themselves Mhmm.

这样他们才能调整好自己的音准。

So that they can work out their own tuning.

对。

Mhmm.

号手们也会聚在一起。

And the horns get together.

并不是为了压过弦乐。

It's not to outshine the strings.

而是为了彼此相聚，解决各自的问题。

It's so that they can be together and work out their kinks.

这样当我们真正聚在一起时，才能团结一致。

So that when we do come together, we're united.

因此，这个聚会的目的就是处理一些问题，让我们能为社会变得更好。

So this was the purpose of the gathering, to work through some of the stuff so that we could be better for society.

要做到这一点，唯一的办法就是反思。

The only way to do that is to reflect.

是的。

Mhmm.

我信奉一条巴哈伊教的格言，是巴哈欧拉说的。

I live by a Baha'i quote that Baha'u'llah says.

它说：每日省察自身，以免在受审时措手不及。

It says, bring thyself to account each day, ere thou art summoned to a reckoning.

每日省察自身。

Bring thyself to account each day.

我为什么要这么做？

Why would I do that?

为了明天变得更好。

So that I can be better tomorrow.

是的。

Mhmm.

反思我今天的行为，以便明天做得更好。

Reflect on my actions today, be better tomorrow.

我能做到这一点的唯一方式就是对自己诚实。

The only way I can do that is to be honest with myself.

杰米，给他概括一下你过去二十年的经历。

Jamie, give him the bullet point of your last twenty years.

要点。

Bullet point.

二十年来，我赚了很多钱，在音乐行业非常成功，当制作人，拿了一些奖，等等等等。

Twenty years, I have lots of money, super successful in the music industry, producer, get some awards, blah blah blah blah blah.

结婚了，但我出轨了。

Get married, I'm unfaithful.

小时候被性侵过，但我没有处理这个问题。

Had been molested when I was a kid, didn't deal with that.

结婚后，我多次出轨。

Getting married, I'm unfaithful multiple times.

伤害了很多人的心。

Destroyed a lot of hearts.

我失去了生活中的一切，不得不重新塑造自己。

Lost everything in my life, and had to rebuild myself.

那么，我该如何重新塑造自己呢？

So how do I rebuild myself?

我必须承担责任，对自己的行为进行反思，努力在第二天变得不一样。

I have to be accountable, responsible, look at my actions, reflect, try to be different the next day.

我相信地球上所有人类都需要进行反思。

I believe that all humans on the earth have to reflect.

我认为上帝让我们来到这个世界，就是为了让我们学习、成长。

I think the reason why God has put us here so that we can learn, we can grow.

我们做到这一点的唯一方式就是反思各种事情。

The only way we do that is to reflect on stuff.

就我所相信的而言，一个黑人在这世上走过一生，不可能没有值得反思的地方，以思考如何变得更好。

And there's no way in life that a black man, far as what I believe, has walked through this world and doesn't have something to reflect upon how they can be better.

所有人都是如此。

All people.

但自从我小时候起，我们所面对的种种，我所经历的感受、我的行为方式、别人告诉我要如何才能在这个世界上取得成功——要坚强、要硬气、不能示弱，要做这么多事，甚至作为黑人，如果你想被接纳，还得更加言辞得体，所有这些，我在很多优秀的人身上都看到了。

But what what we deal with since I was a kid and some of the feelings I've had, how I've walked, how then I've treated people, how I was told I have to be to get ahead in the world, to be strong, to be this, to be tough, to never show weakness, to do all these things, to even be more articulate if you want to be accepted because you're Black, to be, all this stuff, which I see in a lot of great people.

但有时候我们得放下这些，对自己说：嘿，兄弟，因为你有孩子了？

But sometimes we gotta take that off and be like, hey bro, because you got kids?

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

好吧。

Okay.

总有一天，你有了孩子，他会犯错。

One day you're have a kid and he's gonna fuck up.

他必须和爸爸进行一次真诚的对话，说：宝贝，爸爸也经历过这些。

And he's gonna have to have a conversation with daddy that relates and says, oh, baby, I've been there.

我学会了如何变得更好。

I've I've learned how to be better.

这就是我做过的事。

This is what I did.

我审视了自己。

I looked at myself.

我不必总是坚强。

I don't have to always be tough.

我不必完美。

I ain't gotta be perfect.

你在上帝眼中是完美的，但我们仍需努力变得更好。

You're perfect in the sight of God, but we gotta strive to be better.

如果我们不这样做，世界上就仍会存在男女之间、种族之间等各种不平等，除非我们真实面对。

So if we don't do that, then we have this inequality in the world with men and women and with race and all that stuff unless we are real.

我从你身上看到的，是一位经历过很多、做了很多了不起事情的兄弟。

So what I see from you is this deep brother who's done a lot of great shit.

你非常善于表达。

You're super articulate.

你很英俊。

You're handsome.

你很强壮。

You're strong.

你取得了许多成就。

You you got a lot of success going on.

我认为你正在为人类做出美妙的贡献。

I think you are contributing to humanity wonderfully.

我也看到你仍然保持着冷静，因为当我直接问你几个问题时，你总是富有哲理、深思熟虑，这很美好。

And I also see someone who's got his arm on still because when I ask you a few questions straight up, you're philosophical, you're calculating, it's beautiful.

我不是说这不好。

I'm not saying that's bad.

但我还没听到你发自内心的回答。

But I ain't heard a heart answer yet.

我知道你内心深处是有感情的。

And I know you got a heart in there.

你所说的‘因为’是什么意思？因为刚才我想到，天啊。

What do you mean by a because here's I was in this oh, man.

两天前我刚进行过一次这样的对话。

I was having this conversation two days ago.

你知道吗，当你看那些战争题材的电影，那些人被训练得如此彻底。

You know when you watch those movies of people at at at war and they're just so trained.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我现在就处在那种状态。

I think that's where I am now.

好吧。

Okay.

就像你们都说，把你的盔甲脱掉吧。

Like, I'm so where y'all are like, take your armor off.

我会说，你们得问出一个能让我真正回应的问题，否则我根本不会打开，这并不是故意的。

I'm like, you're going to have to ask me something that will make me because otherwise I'm not even, it's not even intentional.

我只是处在这样一个状态里。

I'm just in such a place.

是的

Yeah.

你读过《铁甲骑士》吗？

Have you ever read The Knight in Rusty Armor?

我没读过。

I haven't.

这是我最喜欢的书之一。

It's one of my favorite books.

我第一次读这本书是在接受治疗的时候。

I first read it in therapy.

我甚至带了我的家人，我整个家人去参加了一个治疗静修营。

I actually took my family, my entire family to a therapy retreat.

简而言之，这本书讲的是一位以盔甲闻名的骑士。

And to summarize the book, it's about a knight that was known for his armor.

起初，盔甲是为了保护他，但后来人们只记得他的盔甲。

And he became at first was something to protect him, and then he became known for it.

他有一个妻子和孩子，妻子说：‘求你了，把盔甲脱下来吧。’

And he had a wife and kid, and the wife said, hey, please take off your armor.

但他无法脱下盔甲。

And he couldn't take his armor off.

如果他脱下盔甲，他就不再是这个世界所认识的那个人了。

His arm if he took his armor off, he wouldn't be who he was to the world.

最终，他的妻子带着孩子离开了他，他不得不前往传说中的森林，重新寻找自我。

And eventually, he got to the point where his wife left him, left with the kids, and he had to go to the mythical forest to refigure out who he was.

直到他哭出来的时候，盔甲才融化脱落。

And it wasn't until he cried that his armor melted off.

他无法自己脱下盔甲，因为世人只认识穿着盔甲的他。

He couldn't figure out how to take his own armor off because he was known for it.

我认为，作为男人，我们就是这样做的。

And I think as men that's what we do.

我们不得不带着这层盔甲走过这个世界，这大概就是你所说的。

We we have to we move through the world with this armor and that's kind of what you're saying.

你就像被训练得如此根深蒂固，但对我来说

It's like you're so trained but to me

这感觉像是你的防御机制。

it feels like it's your defense.

因为我知道我以前曾经脱下过它。

Because I I I know I've taken it off before.

好的。

Okay.

那当你脱下它的时候，发生了什么？

And And what happened

当你脱下它的时候？

when you took it off?

那不是一个安全的地方。

It's not a safe place.

说得好。

There you go.

好了。

There we go.

现在你看，这就是，那就是

Now see this is that's now that's

这才是核心问题。

the heart question.

这才是艰难的答案。

That's the hard answer.

它哪里不安全？

What's not safe about it?

但问题是，

But the thing is,

我为什么要去一个不安全的地方？

why would I go somewhere not safe?

但你对白人不就是这样做的吗？

But isn't that what you're doing with white people?

就像，这不安全。

Like, it's not safe.

就像，你让我们去不安全的地方，感到不舒服，这可是你毕生的工作。

Like, you want us to go to unsafe places to uncomfort like, that's your entire life's work.

难道你不对黑人女性和有色人种女性负责，去审视并反思你的性别吗？

Like, don't you owe it to even black women and women of color to have examined that and reflected on your gender?

这不也对她们有帮助吗？

Doesn't that help them too?

我的意思是，当我这么说不是一个安全的地方时，我是从我个人的角度来说的。

Meaning the kind of separate, when I say it's not a safe place, I'm talking about like for me personally.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

So Okay.

当你在谈论与黑人男性进行不舒适的对话时，我称之为不舒适的对话，仅仅因为这种对话本身就不舒服。

When I'm talking when you're talking about uncomfortable conversations with a Black man, I call it uncomfortable conversations with a Black man just by nature of it's uncomfortable.

但在对话的范围内，实际上是一个相当安全的空间。

But within the confinement of the conversation, there's actually a fairly safe space.

是的。

Yeah.

这就像是我为每个人创造了一个安全的空间。

It's kinda like everybody I've created a safe space.

在那里，每个人都感到安全。

Everybody's safe there.

现在我要说一些可能让你感到不舒服的话。

Now I'm gonna say some things that might make you feel uncomfortable.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我会说一些 hopefully 有教育意义的事情，但没人会对你大喊大叫。

I'm gonna fake some things that are hopefully educational, but ain't nobody gonna yell at you.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

就像，你会没事的。

Like, you're you you gonna be alright.

你会没事的。

You gonna be alright.

至少只要你在这里。

At least as long as you're here.

我不能保证你走出这些门之后的情况。

I can't speak to when you go out those doors.

但只要你在这里，是安全的。

But as long as you're here Mhmm.

这里很安全。

It's safe.

嗯，这正是我们正在做的。

Well, that's what we're doing.

这是一个安全的空间。

This is a safe space.

欢迎来到与……的不舒适对话

Welcome to Uncomfortable Conversations with

男性。

men.

不过

Although

我确实

I do

我知道这是一个安全的地方，但还是有数百人甚至数千人在收听。

get that it's a safe spot and yet there are, you know, hundreds of people listening or thousands.

我不知道具体有多少人在听，但确实有人在收听。

I don't know how many we got, but there are people listening.

所以我明白我们始终要意识到这一点。

So I get that we're always conscious of that.

是的。

Yes.

所以我们说这是安全的。

So we say it's safe.

我们是安全的，但当然，我们始终保持着警惕。

We're safe, but you of course have to, we're always guarded.

互联网绝对不是

The internet is definitely not

一个J。

a J.

对 Exactly 来说并不安全。

Safe for Exactly.

那不是。

That's not.

知道这个会让我哭。

Know that will make me cry.

我知道那些会击垮我的想法。

I know the thoughts that will break me.

说出其中一个想法。

Name know thoughts one.

哪一个？

Which one?

我独自一人在费城的一个场地上，用路边的锥筒锻炼，周围是长满杂草的废弃场地和鸽子，因为我刚被释放，一个人待着。

I was in a field by myself in Philadelphia and I was working out with street cones and an abandoned grass field with pigeons because I had just been released and I was by myself.

如果我在那里待太久，我会哭出来的。

If I stay there too long, it'll make me cry.

我知道，我知道该去哪里，我知道哪扇门被敲响。

I know I know where to I know what door is knocked.

告诉我为什么。

Tell me why.

等一下。

Hold on.

所以你是被释放了？

So you were released?

对。

Correct.

你有那些想法，觉得画面很深刻，或者我记得起来。

You had these thoughts that imagery was great or Oh, I remember it.

我清晰地记得。

I remember it vividly.

为什么那种感觉那么漫长？

Why did that feel long?

是什么让你觉得，嗯，想要

What was it about that that made you make you Well, want to

在那里本身并不会，但我开始感到难过。

being there doesn't, but I start to, I feel sorry.

我怜悯过去的自己。

I pity the old me.

我就可怜那个我。

Like, I I pity that me.

当我想到那个人时，我为他感到难过

When I think about that person, I feel sorry for

他们。

them.

为什么？

Why?

那个人很孤独。

That person was alone.

那个人很沮丧。

That person was dejected.

那个人不知道明天会怎样。

That person didn't know what tomorrow held.

那个人已经破碎了。

That person was broken.

就像，那个人正在经历这一切。

Like, that person was going through it.

那不是你。

That's not you

你觉得你是在描述我。

you feel like you're describing me.

但我不是。

But I don't

我为自己感到难过。

feel sorry for me.

我为自己感到难过，因为我想到那个人当时有多糟糕。

I feel sorry for me because I think about how bad it was for that person.

我很遗憾他不得不经历那些。

And I'm sorry they had to go through that.

现在，那个人恰好就是我，但那已经不是现在的我了。

Now that person just so happens to be me, but that's not me anymore.

好的。

Okay.

所以呢，我会哭，因为我为那个人感到悲伤。

So I'm like, I I I like I cry because I weep for that person.

告诉我另一次你想哭的时候。

Tell me tell me another time that you wanted to cry.

其他任何时候都是因为喜悦。

Any other time would be joy.

比如，我会哭。

Like I, I, I cry.

我会哭。

I cry.

我想可能我经常哭，但通常是因为最感人的敬拜音乐。

I think maybe like, I cry often, but it's usually the worst worship music.

我想我可能在周日哭过。

I think I cried probably on Sunday.

是的，先生。

Yes, sir.

是一首名叫《Jaira》的歌，由Maverick City演唱。

To a song called Jaira by Maverick City.

但接着就是喜悦。

But then it's Joy.

欢欣吧。

Rejoice.

这是爱

It's love

上帝的爱。

of God.

是的。

Yes.

比如去年我的生日，11月10日，我这个小子满30岁了，我走到外面，听了一首叫《You Made A Way》的歌，我一边哭一边笑，沿着比佛利山庄的街道泪流满面，因为我心想：你做到了。

Like, my birthday last year, November 10, your boy turned 30 and I went outside and I listened to this song called You Made A Way And I'm weeping and I'm laughing and weeping down the streets of Beverly Hills because I'm like, you did it.

它就这样唱着，不知道是怎么做到的，但你真的做到了。

And the and the and it goes like, don't know how, but you did it.

我开始想象那些让我在费城独自一人时流泪的画面。

And I just start thinking about the imagery that will make me cry being in Philadelphia by myself.

我想起我现在的位置，又哭又笑，因为我觉得：我做到了。

And I think about where I am now and I'm crying and I'm laughing because I'm like, I made it.

因为我为那个曾经的自己流泪。

Because I weep for that person.

因为啊，我曾经那么悲伤。

Because I, oh, was so sad.

就一个人。

Just by yourself.

哦，那真的，真的很悲伤，兄弟。

Oh, it was just, it was sad, man.

那真的很悲伤。

It was sad.

但这种事情可能会再次发生。

But that could happen again.

你将会

You're gonna

不会。

No.

不会了。

It won't.

什么？

What?

什么？

What?

因为你是上帝的掌控者吗？

Because you're in control of god, is it?

不会再发生了，因为我会更好地应对。

It it won't happen again because I'd respond better.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我不是我不是完全明白你的意思

I wasn't I wasn't quite What

你的意思不是说你不会再被沮丧或拒绝，而是说即使你丢了工作，那种感觉也不会再出现，是这个意思吗？

you mean is not that you'll be dejected or rejected again, but but the feeling that you had won't happen again if the if you lose your job or is that what you mean?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我最近一直情绪低落。

I've I've been I've been low.

自从那以后，我就一直情绪低落。

I've been I've been low since.

你说得对。

You're right.

就像人们看不到的那样。

Like, that's the thing people don't see.

就像我们现在进行的这场对话，我过去十三个月过得很好。

Like, the conversation we're having now, my last thirteen months were great.

嘿，我一直在

Yo, I've been

低落。

low.

没人看到冰山下面。

And nobody sees under the iceberg.

我才是你们中最低落的那个。

I've been the lowest y'all.

但为什么？

But why?

老天啊，人生啊，兄弟。

Man, life, dude.

跟我说点具体的。

Tell me something specific.

你为啥这么低落？

Why you've low?

给我简短版的。

Give me the short version.

简而言之，你知道的，我不喜欢长篇大论。

The shot, you know, I don't like talking long.

你们都同意的话，就用引号说吧。

Speak in quotes as you all agree.

到目前为止，我已经见证了。

I've witnessed by now.

我不喜欢长时间说

I don't like talking for

你确实很长，你接受过训练。

a You're long definitely, you've been trained.

我喜欢长时间说话。

I like talking for a good time.

我是电视训练出来的。

And I'm TV trained.

我不是广播训练出来的。

I'm not radio trained.

都没问题。

All good.

告诉我你为什么情绪低落。

Tell me why you low.

或者曾经是。

Or were.

我之所以会这样，可能是因为情感关系，比如你刚结束一段关系，然后就只是嗯。

The reason I would be probably relationally, like, you you you get out of a relationship and you're just like Mhmm.

你之所以破碎，有好几个原因。

You're you're broken for a couple reasons.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你之所以破碎，是因为你伤害了别人。

Like, you're you're broken because you broke somebody else.

你破碎了，因为你曾被伤害过。

You're broken you've been broken.

你破碎了，因为你不知道自己是否还能被修复。

You're broken because you don't know if you'll ever be put together again.

你知道，你就只是破碎了。

You know, you're just like you're just broken.

你和女性的关系或友谊是怎样的？

What are what are your relationships, or your friendships with women like?

我是一个终生重视友谊的人。

My, I'm a, I am a friendship for life person.

所以我和女性的友谊是这样的：你只要帮过我，我就会一辈子把你当朋友，这有时可能不太幸运，比如那些已经结婚的前女友，我还会说，这是我大学时的前女友。

And so my friendships with women, it's like, you ever did something for me, I'm with you for life, which is, it can be unfortunate because even, like, exes that have gone on to get married, like, I'll be like, my college ex.

我会感到难过，因为我们不再联系了。

I'm sad that, like, we don't speak.

她现在结婚了。

She's married now.

但我总觉得欠你一份情。

But I'm like, I'm indebted to you.

你曾经帮过我。

Like, you you got me.

她到底为你做了什么？

What what did she what was it that she did for you?

她陪我度过了大学时光，兄弟。

Got me through college, bruh.

不管是帮我看作业、洗衣服，还是在我受伤时给我一个肩膀倾诉或哭泣，我都觉得欠你一份情。

Mean, whether it was, you know, aiding with homework, whether it was helping with laundry, whether it was just a shoulder to talk to or cry on when you got hurt, it was like, no, I I'm indebted to you.

因为我总觉得人们会为他人付出。

Because I just feel like people contribute to other people.

如果任何人曾经对我的生活有过帮助，我永远不会忘记你。

And if anybody's ever contributed to my life, I haven't forgotten you.

所以我的人际关系中，从情感层面来说，我可能更喜欢和女性相处而不是男性。

And so my relationships, I probably prefer hanging out with women than men from a emotional component.

懂吗？

Know?

因为我是

Like, because I'm

所以是因为男性像机器人，而女性更容易交谈吗？

so because men are robots and women are easy to talk to?

我是说，给我相反的类型吧。

I'm so I'm so one way give me the opposite.

给我一个能感受情绪的人吧，因为我自己没法感受。

Like, give me somebody that can feel because I can't feel.

我能思考。

I can think.

好的。

Okay.

所以，好吧。

So okay.

就这样了。

There we go.

现在我们说到点子上了，因为我一辈子都有同样的问题。

Now we're talking because I have had the same problem my whole life.

你不想感受吗？

Don't you wanna feel?

你不想成为其他男人的安全港湾吗？

Don't you wanna be that safe place for other men?

这

It's

好像我是别人的安全港，但我自己却不是安全的。

as though I'm a safe place for other people, but I'm not a safe place for myself.

因为和一个黑人进行不舒服的对话。

Because uncomfortable conversation with a black man.

安全的地方。

Safe place.

大家都进来吧。

Everybody come in.

你最近看过这一集。

You've seen the episode recently.

小韦恩给我打电话了。

Lil Wayne calls me.

我和小韦恩没有任何关系。

I don't have I don't have any relationship with Lil Wayne.

这真是美好，非常美好

It's a beautiful, beautiful

他给我打电话，说：嘿。

And he calls me and he's like, hey.

我想讲一个故事，过去二十六年我一直在撒谎，说我曾经试图自杀。

I wanna tell this story that I've been essentially lying about for the last twenty six years where I tried to kill myself.

你为什么没在试图自杀的时候给我打电话？

Why didn't you try to kill yourself and you calling me?

你根本就不认识我。

You don't even know me.

显然，我为别人创造了一个安全的空间。

So clearly I've created this safe space for other people.

但在我的个人生活中，我并没有做好这一点。

But in my personal life, I don't do a good job of doing it.

我真的不知道为什么。

I don't really know why.

这正是我们正在讨论的内容。

That is what we're talking about.

那就是核心。

That's the heart.

那就是真正的核心所在。

That's that's the heart right there.

因为你刚才说的每一句话，这才是最让人铭记的。

Because Everything you said right there, that's the one that's gonna stick.

尤其是对我们听众来说，去关注并承认这一点非常重要。

And that is such an important thing to look at and acknowledge, especially for our listeners.

好的。

Okay.

大家先别走神。

Everybody hold that thought.

我们得去付些账单。

We gotta go pay some bills.

我们马上回来，继续与埃曼纽尔·阿乔对话。

We will be right back with Emmanuel Acho.

这是《够男人》。

This is Man Enough.

好的。

Alright.

欢迎回到《够男人》播客。

Welcome back to the Man Enough podcast.

像你这样的人，是每个人都想成为的样子。

Guys like you are who everybody wants to be.

我的意思是，你就坐在我旁边。

I mean, you're sitting next to me.

天啊，我都想成为你这样的人。

Hell, I even wanna be like you.

但我觉得，成为你这样的人是要付出代价的。

And and yet I believe being like you comes at a cost.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且，如果我们坦诚相待，这正是我们的社会一直在做的事。

And and that, if we're being honest, that's what that's what our society does.

我们从小就把男孩塑造成机器人。

We create robots from boys at a young age.

正如著名非裔女性作家贝尔·胡克斯所说，我们实施了灵魂谋杀，切断了头脑与心灵之间的联系。

And as bell hooks says to quote a prolific black female author, we commit acts of soul murder where we sever the connection between our head and our hearts.

正如她所说，我们进行了一种心理上的自我残害，阻止自己去感受。

We engage, as she says, in a psychic act of self mutilation where we prevent ourselves from allowing ourselves to feel.

随着时间推移，我们不仅对周围的世界麻木，也对自己的情感变得迟钝。

And over time we numb ourselves, not just to the world around us, but to our own feelings.

因此，我的个人努力在于认识到，我身上那部分机械化的自我，除了满足我自己之外，并不能为我生活中的任何人带来价值。

And so my work, my personal work is recognizing that the robotic part of me doesn't serve anybody in my life except me.

它只服务于这个世界所称赞和认可的东西——工作、职业和金钱。

And it only serves what the world congratulates and validates, which is work, profession, money.

它并不能促进我的人际关系。

It doesn't serve my interpersonal relationships.

它没有为我的妻子或我的友谊带来任何帮助，也没有为我的孩子带来任何益处。

It has not served my wife or my friendships, and it's not serving my children.

所以我现在做的治疗是关于感受的。

So the therapy I'm doing right now is about feeling.

我该如何去感受？

How can I feel?

为什么我无法感受到对自己的愤怒，意识到天啊，我对自己太苛刻了。

Why can't I feel being mad at myself realizing like, oh my God, I've been so mean to me.

我对自己的身体太糟糕了。

I have been terrible to my body.

我讨厌我的身体。

I hate my body.

我的身体辜负了我。

My body failed me.

然后我，那这种感觉是怎样的？

And then I well, how does that feel?

我的治疗师问我。

My therapist asked me.

我说，有时候我甚至找不到词来形容，因为从来没有人作为男人问过我这个问题：你感觉怎么样？

And I said I don't even have the words sometimes because nobody ever asked me that damn question as a man how I feel.

对吧？

Right?

所以这关乎重新连接我的头脑和内心。

So it's about reconnecting my head and my heart.

我只是想说，当你提到‘我不知道该怎么感受’时，对我来说，这就是真实在发声。

And I just wanna say that when you said, like, I don't know how to feel, to me, that's like that is truth talking.

所以我很好奇，当埃马纽埃尔·阿乔能够重新连接那种感受时，他会是什么样子？因为你已经征服了全世界。

So I wonder what Emmanuel Acho is like when he can reconnect with that feeling because you're already taken over the world.

现在，你可以治愈这个世界。

Now you can heal the world.

对我来说，恐惧在于我得弄清楚该怎么开关这种感受。

I think the fear then for me is a matter of you'd I'd have to figure out how to turn it on and off.

我的意思是，如果我开始让情感和情绪的洪流涌入我的生活，我就得想办法在进入商业世界时把它们关掉。

Like, if I if I started to to to let the rivers of feeling and emotion into my own life, I'd have to figure out how to turn it off when I'm in in the business world.

欢迎来到作为人类的现实，兄弟。

Welcome to being human, my brother.

而且我觉得确实是这样。

And and I think that's that's a Yeah.

我理解你为什么会有这样的想法。

That's, I understand why you think that way.

但我认为这种想法是错误的。

I think that's the wrong way to think.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你并不应该把它关掉。

I don't think you're you're supposed to turn it off.

我们被教导要关掉它，因为我们把这看作是软弱。

We've been taught to turn it off because we see that as weakness.

我们看到了。

We see that.

我为什么要关闭你刚才提到的那些东西呢？

Why would I turn off those things that you just mentioned?

如果我真的认为这些是宝贵的，我会带着它们参加每一次会议。

If in fact I see those things as valuable, I'm going to go into every meeting with those things turned on.

我会做我正在做的一切。

I'm going do everything I'm doing.

我会带着它们去运动。

I'm a play sports with them.

我会用这种方式和我的孩子交谈。

I'm talk to my children that way.

我会做我的事，但我们却把这些东西视为软弱。

Going to talk to, you know, I'm going do my stuff, but we see those things as weak.

所以我们被教导要

So we've been taught

去看那些

to see those

东西，所以我说，对。

things as So I'm saying, right.

所以，我只是理解你为什么这么想，因为我觉得很多男性都是这样被教育长大的。

So, so I just think I understand why you think that way, because I think a lot of men are brought up that way.

但我认为我们需要重新评估这一点。

But I think it's, we need to reevaluate that.

对不起，莉兹。

I'm sorry, Liz.

我想我打断你了。

I think I cut I you

还有，如果你以为你能控制自己的情绪，那么你的情绪终将控制你。

also, if you think you can control your emotions, your emotions are always going to control you.

你的情绪是存在的，而情绪是一种讯息。

Like your emotions are there and emotions are messages.