What Prevents Your Team from Achieving Marketing Effectiveness?

简单来说，营销效果就是营销活动在带来短期销售成果的同时，还能推动品牌的长期增长能力。

I think most simply put, marketing effectiveness is the ability of marketing activities to deliver both short term sales results and long term brand growth.

它不是一个单一的指标。

It's not a single metric.

营销效果的定义本身并不是ROAS或ROI。

Marketing effectiveness isn't, by definition, ROAS or ROI.

每个企业的营销效果都不一样。

It's not the same for every business.

我觉得随着品牌的发展，营销的角色也在变化，关键是要清楚品牌在不同发展阶段是如何成长的，以及营销在其中扮演的角色。

I think the role of marketing evolves as brands grow, and I think having alignment and clarity regarding how brands grow and how marketing contributes to that at different stages of growth is really imperative in that definition.

大家好，欢迎收听《营销架构师》，这是一档以研究为基础的播客，专门解答你最棘手的营销问题。

Hello, and welcome to the marketingarchitects, a research first podcast dedicated to answering your toughest marketing questions.

我是埃琳娜·欣格尔。

I'm Elena Hingle.

我在这里负责营销团队，今天和我一起的还有两位联合主持人：我们的CEO安吉拉·沃斯，以及首席产品架构师罗布·德马斯。

I run the marketing team here at marketingarchitects, and I'm joined by my cohosts, Angela Voss, our CEO, and Rob Demars, our chief product architect.

我们又回来了，聊聊最近的营销动态，始终立足于数据、研究和真正推动业务成果的因素。

We're back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news, always trying to root our opinions and data, research, and what drives business results.

今天我们要谈的话题，我真没想到之前居然没讲过，毕竟它可是我们很多期节目的核心——到底什么是营销效果。

Our topic for today is one I can't believe we haven't covered before since it's really the star of many of our episodes, and that is what exactly is marketing effectiveness.

今天我们会聊聊营销效果的发展历程、营销人实施最佳实践时遇到的挑战、该关注哪些权威人士、该读哪些研究，还有更多内容。

So today, we're gonna talk about the history of marketing effectiveness, the challenges marketers face when trying to implement marketing effectiveness best practices, the marketing effectiveness thought leaders you should know, research you should consume, and much more.

这个话题的起因是，Work 最近发布了一份来自世界广告主联合会（WFA）的报告，标题叫《打造全球营销效果文化》。

So this topic came about because Work recently promoted a report from the World Federation of Advertisers or the WFA titled creating a global culture of marketing effectiveness.

这份报告的诞生，是因为 WFA 发现，虽然营销效果已经成为广告界热门话题，但对他们的会员来说，这恰恰是头号要解决的问题。

And this report came to be because the WFA felt that while marketing effectiveness has grown into a popular advertising topic, in fact, it ranks as the top problem to address for WFA members.

目前的讨论中，缺的是对营销效果所面临挑战的统一认识。

What's missing from the conversation is a collective view of the challenges associated with marketing effectiveness.

于是他们发起了一项调查，想搞清楚这些关键难题，调查结果就成了这份报告的基础。

So they decided to launch a survey to suss out these key challenges, and the results of this survey became the basis of this report.

和往常一样，我建议你们自己去下载报告，仔细读一读。

As always, I'd encourage you to go download the report and read through it yourself.

我们会在节目描述里附上报告链接，不过我先简单总结一下主要发现，带大家入门。

Then we'll include a link to the report in the episode description, but I'll provide a quick summary of the findings to get us rolling here.

总体来看，营销人员给自己的营销效能文化打了6.5分（满分10分）。

Overall, marketers rated their cultures of marketing effectiveness a 6.5 out of 10.

算是勉强及格，但明显还有很大提升空间。

So it's in okay health, but there's definitely room for improvement.

我得提一下，WFA把营销效能拆成了四个维度：人员、流程、聚焦度，以及数据工具与衡量体系。

And I should mention that the WFA separates marketing effectiveness into four quadrants, which are people, process, focus, and data tools and measurement.

所谓‘人员’，指的是高层支持、职责清晰，还有持续学习这些方面。

The people quadrant means things like buy in at the senior level, clear roles, and continuous learning.

‘流程’指的是决策方式、效果评估，以及如何提升业务成果。

Process is the decision making, measurement, and improvement of business results.

‘聚焦度’是明确的价值主张和实施路径，而‘数据工具与衡量’则是靠高质量、准确、及时的数据构建出有实际意义的营销洞察。

Focus is a clear vision and roadmap to communicate value, and data tools and measurement is an ecosystem fed by quality, accurate, and timely data that creates relevant marketing intelligence.

在这四个维度里，WFA认为‘流程’是连接另外三个的关键环节，也是各企业普遍觉得最需要改进的地方。

So of these four quadrants, it's process what the WFA defines as the glue to these other three where there's perceived to be the most room for improvement within individual organizations.

Elena，像我们这些坐在便宜座位、高高在上快到顶楼的人，你能再解释一下这个‘流程’到底是什么意思吗？

Elena, for for us people in the cheap seats up here way up in the nosebleed section, can you better explain what that means, the process?

我还是有点没搞明白这一点。

I'm I'm still not quite grabbing that one.

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，我一开始也有点犯迷糊。

To be honest, I had a little bit of trouble with it too.

我看‘流程’和‘测量与工具’这部分的时候，有点分不太清。

To me, it got a little bit confusing when I was looking at process versus that measurement and tools piece.

不过按我的理解，他们把这个流程分成了五个步骤。

But from what I can understand, they have these five steps that create this process.

第一步是：你有没有提供最好的洞察来支持你的规划？

So the first step is, are you creating the best insight to feed into your planning process?

然后，你有没有设定明确可衡量的目标？

Then are you setting SMART objectives?

你们有没有在选定的渠道上开展营销活动？

Are you activating marketing activities across chosen channels?

你们能不能及时评估营销活动的效果？

Are you measuring the impact of the marketing activity in a timely manner?

你们能不能证明这次营销活动的商业价值？

And are you proving the business value of the campaign activity?

在我看来，他们把流程比作黏合剂，因为它构成了营销效果的基础。

So to me, I think they describe process as the glue because it's sort of the setup into marketing effectiveness.

你们有没有建立这套评估体系？

So do you have this measurement framework?

对吧？

Right?

你们手头的工具够不够用？

Do you have the tools you need?

这其实就是为什么这么做的原因。

It's kind of the why.

它就像是容器。

It's the vessel.

没错。

Yes.

这个容器是让你做好其他所有事情的基础。

It's the it's the vessel that sets you up for for everything else.

既然我们对流程有了更清晰的定义，那流程上的短板对那些注重营销效果的营销人员意味着什么？

So now that we've defined process a little bit more, what does this weakness in process mean for marketers who are focused on effectiveness?

根据这份报告，营销人员可能太专注于活动的具体执行，而需要回头重新思考‘为什么’，并证明自己为业务创造了什么价值。

Well, according to the report, marketers might be too focused on the tactical delivery of an activity, and they need to go back to the why and prove the value they're driving for the business.

说到从‘为什么’开始，只有41%的受访者表示他们已经建立了明确的衡量体系。

Speaking of starting with the why, just 41% of respondents said they have a clearly defined measurement framework in place.

只有22%的公司拥有全公司范围的衡量体系。

Only 22% have a company wide measurement framework.

这或许能解释为什么‘为什么’和公司其他部分之间会出现脱节。

And this might help explain this disconnect between the why and the rest of the company.

而且，这一点对我们来说并不意外，大家对如何证明品牌长期效果还存在误解。

Also, no surprise here to us, but there's some misunderstanding of how to prove the long term effects of brand.

71%的受访者认为品牌长期效应至关重要，但只有59%的人表示他们有办法衡量品牌。

71% of respondents agree that long term brand effects are crucial, but just 59% say they have the metrics to measure brand.

我觉得他们在说谎。

I think they're lying.

真想看看这些人都聚在一起，现场解释他们到底是怎么衡量品牌的，来场大对决。

I'd like to see a battle royale of all those people getting together explaining how they measure brand, actually.

我愿意掏钱看这场面。

I'd pay for that.

我想你完全可以搞一个非常简单的指标。

I suppose you could have a very simple metric.

人们在衡量方式上， probably 有挺大差别，对吧？

There's probably a difference, right, in how people are measuring.

我觉得连品牌到底该怎么定义，大家都有很多困惑和分歧。

And I think there's a lot of confusion and and dissension even about the definition of brand.

没错，就是这样。

So Exactly.

我们到底在衡量什么？

What are we even measuring?

对。

Yeah.

所以我特别想看到那60%的人聚在一起，好好聊聊他们是怎么衡量品牌的。

That's why I'd love to see everyone get in a room and talk talk that 60% over.

但我确实觉得罗说得有道理，就是大家对‘品牌’到底是什么、我们有没有正确衡量品牌，普遍感到困惑。

But I do think Rob has a good point, which is this general confusion around what is brand, are we measuring brand correctly.

我们跟很多营销人员交流时，也发现这种情况。

We see that with a lot of marketers that we talk to.

我觉得很多营销人员都有个共同点：大家基本都认同品牌和长期营销投入的价值，但归根结底，我们还得对拉动收入负责。

And I think something a lot of marketers have in common is everyone can pretty much agree in the value of brand and long term marketing investments, but at the end of the day, we're also accountable for driving revenue.

所以如果我们没法在短期内证明营销投入的价值，那就真被捆住手脚了。

So if we can't prove the value of our marketing investments in the short term too, then we're gonna have our hands tied.

继续说调查结果，55%的受访者觉得他们手头的工具足以说明营销表现，但只有34%的人认为自己有工具能预测营销未来的成效。

But to continue with the results from the survey, 55 of respondents feel they have the right tools to explain how their marketing performed, but only 34% believe they have the tools to predict how marketing will perform.

52%的受访者同意，他们过于关注效率了。

52% of respondents agree they focus too much on efficiency.

大多数受访者认为，他们的洞察团队常常被排除在营销其他部门的决策节奏之外。

Most respondents agree that their insight function too often sits outside of the decision making rhythm of the rest of the marketing function.

最后，注重效果的营销团队更需要加强内部以及与其他部门之间的协作。

And finally, marketers focused on effectiveness have a need for better collaboration between their teams and with other teams within the business.

所以，这些数据量可不小。

So that's a lot of data.

不过，安，这个报告是你最先发现并分享给我们的。

But, Anne, you originally found this report and shared it with us.

你觉得我有没有漏掉什么你特别想补充的吗？

Is there anything that I'm missing that you wanna add here?

我觉得你讲得已经非常全面了。

Well, I think you covered it really well.

报告里的内容真不少，对吧。

There's a lot, right, in the report.

让我特别注意的是关于关系与协作的那部分。

Something that did catch my eye was the section on relationships and collaboration.

他们做了一项调查，问受访者：营销团队与媒体团队、洞察团队、采购、财务等部门的合作情况如何，同时也问了营销团队内部的合作情况。

So they surveyed, and those surveyed were asked, how well does marketing work with the media team, the insights team, procurement, finance, etcetera, and also asked, how well does marketing work with itself?

就是说，团队内部的合作怎么样。

Meaning, like, within their own body.

你们俩猜猜，有多少百分比的人觉得团队内部协作很好？

Any guess from the two of you as to what percent felt there was a strong collaboration within itself?

估计得有80%吧。

It's gotta be 8080%.

我觉得是20%。

I'm gonna say now I'm gonna say 20%.

有20%的人认为内部协作很差。

20% said poor collaboration.

天哪。

Oh my god.

80%？哇。

80% Wow.

80%的人认为还有很大提升空间。

80% said it could improve.

零%的人认为协作非常紧密。

0% answered strong collaboration.

零。

Zero.

是的。

Yeah.

我记不清具体调查了多少人，但在我看来，问题出在他们内部连‘营销效果’到底意味着什么都没达成共识。

I can't remember how many people were surveyed, but, like, in my view, that's due to that lack of alignment on even what marketing effectiveness means for their organization within marketing.

对吧？

Right?

这是核心信念上的不一致。

That's a lack of alignment in core beliefs.

这是绩效和品牌之间的内耗。

That's that's infighting on performance versus brand.

如果市场部门自己都做不到一致，那公司又怎么能在营销效果上达成共识呢？

And so how is an organization supposed to be aligned on marketing effectiveness if marketing isn't?

我觉得，这是我们当下不得不面对的一个严峻现实。

And I think that's a dark, stark reality that we're facing these days.

在我们接触的所有市场人员中，我觉得少于四分之一的人能认出IPA和Ehrenberg Bass这样的机构。

Of all the marketers we talk to, I would say less than 25% of them can can even recognize groups like the IPA and Ehrenberg Bass.

作为市场从业者，我们大多是在各自公司里边干边学，因此有必要重新审视我们自以为懂的东西。

We, as marketers, I think, are growing up learning by doing in our own organizations, and we need to challenge what we think we know.

我觉得IPA和EB这样的机构，正在推动这种反思。

And I think groups like the IPA and and EB are are doing that.

没错。

Right.

是的

Yeah.

这个数据真让人难过。

That's a real sad statistic.

我们可以把这个看作是提升的空间。

We'll just call that an area of opportunity for growth.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以

So

那这对所有听众来说再合适不过了，因为我接下来想回到最基础的问题，来定义什么是营销效果。

then this is gonna be perfect for everyone listening because what I wanted to do next is go back to basics and define marketing effectiveness itself.

所以，也许我们可以帮一些营销团队达成共识，因为就像安吉说的，这个概念经常被误解。

So maybe we can help some marketing teams get on the same page here because, like Ange said, it's misinterpreted frequently.

那我们先回到研究本身，根据WFA的定义，营销有效性是指通过人员、数据工具、衡量手段以及明确专注的方向，让营销活动更高效、更有影响力，从而提升业务表现。

So to stick to our study first, according to the WFA, marketing effectiveness is the process of improving business performance for marketing activities made easier and more impactful by people, data tools, measurement, and a strong and clear focus.

但安吉，你是怎么定义营销有效性的呢？

But, Angela, how would you define marketing effectiveness?

是的。

Yeah.

我确实挺认同这个说法的。

I mean, I like that for sure.

我很喜欢WFA提出的这个四象限框架。

I like the framework that the WFA is providing with kind of those four quadrants.

但简单来说，营销有效性就是营销活动既能带来短期销售成果，又能推动长期品牌增长，从而帮助找到这两者之间的最佳平衡。

But I think most simply put, marketing effectiveness is the ability of marketing activities to deliver both short term sales results and long term brand growth, which then helps, you know, helps find the optimal balance between those two objectives.

它不是一个单一的指标。

It's not a single metric.

营销效果的定义本身并不是ROAS或ROI。

Marketing effectiveness isn't, by definition, ROAS or ROI.

每个企业的营销效果都不一样。

It's not the same for every business.

我认为，随着品牌成长，营销的角色也在变化；而明确不同成长阶段中品牌如何发展、营销如何助力，对整个企业统一认知至关重要。

I think the role of marketing evolves as brands grow, and I think having alignment and clarity regarding how brands grow and how marketing contributes to that at different stages of growth is really imperative in that definition or in that education to understand across the business.

电视是最强大的营销渠道。

TV is the most powerful marketing channel.

它在效果、信任度和情感驱动方面都排名第一。

It's first in effectiveness, leads for trust, and is number one in driving emotion.

但它也昂贵、难以规模化，而且很难衡量。

But it's also expensive, difficult to scale, and hard to measure.

所以我们彻底颠覆了传统的代理模式，推出了全方位的电视营销服务。

So we flipped the traditional agency model on its head and created all inclusive TV.

你只需要为媒体投放付一张账单。

You get one bill for media.

我们包揽了你成功所需的一切其他事项。

We cover everything else you need to succeed.

别再为按小时计费的代理服务掏钱了，欢迎来到让电视广告发挥前所未有效力的时代。

So say goodbye to hourly agency fees and say hello to making TV work harder than ever.

想了解更多，请访问 marketingarchitects.com。

Visit marketingarchitects.com to learn more.

说到营销效果的定义，我觉得刚才那番话真是给听众们讲得再清楚不过了。

And speaking of just the definition of marketing effectiveness, I think that's a great explanation for the listeners.

我还想聊聊这个概念的由来，以及营销效果是如何随时间演变的。

One thing I also wanted to do is talk a little bit about where it even came from and how has marketing effectiveness changed over time.

所以我们给罗布布置了个小任务，让他为这期节目做点功课。

So we gave Rob a little assignment for the episode.

我们让他去查一查营销效果的历史，给大家做个简要的回顾。

We asked him to go look into marketing effectiveness and give us a little history lesson.

你知道罗布从来不认真做功课的。

You know Rob doesn't do his homework.

他就是从来不认真准备。

He doesn't do his homework.

我跟你说，Chatchi BT 真的是太棒了。

I swear to god, Chatchi BT is awesome.

不过说到这个问题，它让我想起一本经典老书——大卫·奥格威的《奥格威谈广告》。

One of the things that is is interesting about that question, though, is it reminded me of this classic book, good old fashioned David Ogilvy, The Book of David Ogilvy on Advertising.

他说过，每个文案人员都该从直邮广告做起。

And he talked about, you know, every copywriter should start off in direct mail.

那是很久以前的事了，早得不能再早了，对吧？

And this was back in the day, way, way back in the day, right?

但那确实是当时用有限手段衡量营销效果的绝佳例子。

But I think it was a really good example of marketing effectiveness in measurement using the mechanism that they had at the time, which was mail.

他们能清楚地知道：写个广告，发给不同的邮寄名单，收到回复后就能看出哪些有效。

If they could measure, hey, you write an ad, you put it out there, you'd send it to different mailing lists and you'd get a response back and you would know what worked.

后来广播时代来了，衡量方式开始变得模糊，这才有了焦点小组这些方法。

Then the era of broadcast came in and things started to get a little softer, and that was kind of the development of the focus groups and all that good stuff.

但当你回想起早期那些日子，再看看互联网兴起后那些眼花缭乱的归因工具和点击付费模式，你会发现一切都回到了原点。

But it really has come full circle when you think about those early days and then the onset of the Internet and all of the shiny objects of attribution and and cost per click.

这其实正是大卫·奥格威那句老话的体现——你应该写那些能被衡量的东西。

That's all just rooted back into that good old fashioned kind of David Ogilvy saying, hey, you should be writing things you can measure.

所以对我来说，这段历史给我的启示就是，事情兜了一大圈，又回到了原处。

So I guess for me, the history lesson is just kind of that full circle that has occurred.

甚至早在八十年代，当直复营销电视刚兴起，开始使用800热线并进行效果追踪时，那已经是今天点击付费广告模式的前身了。

Even if you go back into the eighties when direct response television first really came into play and the use of the 800 number and the measurement that occurred there, also kind of was the grandfather to what we all experience today in just direct cost per click type advertising.

而现在，我们又进入了更多复杂领域，这些方面安能说得更透彻，比如跨媒体建模，以及我们如今衡量效果的种种高级手段。

And now we're getting into all these things that Ang can do a much better job of talking about with, you know, mixed media modeling and the sophistication that can occur with how we're trying to measure things.

我觉得这听起来也像是博士的观点。

I think it feels too like perhaps Doctor.

电视和数字媒体的发展，或许让美国更偏向于营销的短期效果。

Television and the growth of digital, perhaps The US has sort of leaned into the the short term side of marketing.

而我们一直把这种短期效果当作衡量成功的标准。

And that's what we've thought of as effectiveness.

对吧？

Right?

就连我们公司MarketingArchitects，也早就知道什么才有效。

Even us as a company marketingarchitects, we knew what was effective.

现在，越来越多的证据和研究开始关注这两个方面的平衡。

I think now there's this growing body of evidence and growing interest in education around both sides of the equation.

我觉得，海外的IPA、Ehrenberg、Bass这些人做得很好，他们努力把这两者结合起来，帮我们理解自己的消费行为。

And that's where I feel those overseas, the IPA, Ehrenberg, Bass have done a great job of really trying to couple these two together and help us understand our own buying behavior.

当然，不是每买一样东西，都得靠广告才决定下单。

Certainly, don't wait for an advertisement to make a purchase with every single thing I buy.

没错。

Right.

所以我和Elena经常聊到这个问题：美国在这方面是不是有点落后了？

And so I know that's something that Elena and I have talked a lot about, like, has The US been a bit behind on this topic?

我觉得现在确实在进步，但还是得赶紧追上。

So I think it's growing, but we still have some catch up to do.

既然罗布已经为我们打下了营销效果的基础，我想再深入聊聊研究中发现的营销效果面临的挑战。

So now that Rob's given us this foundational understanding of marketing effectiveness, I did wanna talk a little bit more about just the challenges of marketing effectiveness that the research uncovered.

WFA明确指出，营销人员在执行营销计划时，擅长的是那些明确渠道选择和激活等具体行动。

And the WFA, they made it clear that marketers are better at delivering on marketing plans with strengths line and activities like picking and activating marketing channels.

我觉得，安吉，你刚才提到的那些短期策略，正是他们的强项所在。

And I think, Ange, to your point, some of those short term things that you were just talking about, that's where those strengths lie.

但我们往往搞不清楚，为什么一开始就要做这些事，也很难衡量这些活动在短期和长期中的实际价值——这正好呼应了安吉刚才说的。

But we have some trouble understanding why we're doing an activity in the first place, and it is difficult to measure and understand the value of that activity across the short and the long term, which again is just what Angela was talking about.

所以，测量问题一再出现，确实成了营销人员面临的核心难题。

So it does sort of seem like measurement comes up again and again as a key challenge for marketers.

我知道，每次和营销人员聊起来，只要谈到进入电视广告这类渠道，或者一般性的营销效果问题，测量总是他们最关心的话题。

I know that when we talk to marketers, that's often the biggest topic when we're talking about getting into a channel like TV or marketing effectiveness in general.

安吉，你有同感吗？

So, Ange, does that resonate with you?

你是不是也经常听到大家在抱怨测量这个难题？

Like, do you feel like you just continue to hear this challenge of measurement?

是的

Yeah.

我也有同感

I do.

我觉得问题的核心其实出在数据质量和数据整合上，尤其是在那些结构复杂的大型组织里。

I think the challenge really begins with data quality and its unification, especially in large multilayered organizations.

各个团队各自为政，用的分类标准和数据视角都不一样，搞得特别混乱。

Entities grapple with diverse teams, each employing their own unique categorizations and ways they look at data.

要想拿到统一、高质量的数据，简直像在爬山一样难。

Accessing high quality unified data becomes sort of an uphill battle.

就算你解决了数据问题，有了测量系统，组织上下还是很难真正全面落地。

And then even once that challenge is solved, you do have systems for measurement in place, there can still be challenges in fully committing across the entire organization.

要想真正实现全面的营销效果评估，你得真心愿意投入才行。

To truly embrace full marketing effectiveness measurement, you have to be willing to commit to it too.

很多公司还是依赖那些表面好看但没实际意义的指标，根本反映不了真实效果。

Many organizations still rely on familiar vanity metrics, which don't offer a true reflection of effectiveness.

所以，真正想带来改变的话，品牌必须敢于挑战现状，摆脱那些表面的指标，主动去学习和调整。

And so to genuinely make a difference, brands have to be willing to challenge that status quo, move beyond those wallpaper metrics, and actively seek to learn and adapt.

我认为领导层的作用，尤其是首席营销官，在这里尤为关键，要重视战略性的品牌建设，把短期和长期的考核指标对齐。

I think the role of leadership, especially the CMO, becomes pivotal here, emphasizing strategic brand building and aligning both short term and long term KPIs.

不过，现在确实存在一些先进的测量技术。

But there are advanced measurement technologies that exist.

但就算这些技术摆在桌面上了，你还是得愿意深入参与，并且真正相信它们。

And yet even though they're at the table, you have to be willing to lean in and believe as well.

很多时候，我们总在找一个一劳永逸的解决方案。

And I think a lot of times, we're looking for the silver bullet solution.

有时候，大家觉得一个应用就够了。

Sometimes that's one application.

当你看到一个单一的全景视图时，就会想：好吧，总算有个数字了。

And when you're presented with that single view, you're kind of like, okay, there's a number.

但问题是，我信得过这个数字吗？

Now, do I trust it?

我不该怀疑它吗？

Do I not trust it?

我们倾向于为所有客户采用多种测量方法，这样能更好地交叉验证，但毫无疑问，这依然是个难题。

We like to lean into multiple measurement methodologies across all of our clients, which really helps kind of triangulate, but it's definitely still a topic without question.

安吉拉，这让我想起几周前我们和约翰·沃伊切赫的那番对话，他曾经担任过好几个大品牌的首席营销官。

Angela, that reminds me of that conversation we had a few weeks ago with John Wojciech, who's been a CMO at a lot of different massive brands.

他特别谈到过共识和信念体系的重要性，强调在加入一家公司、启动营销活动之前，这一点至关重要。

And he talked a lot about that idea of alignment and belief system and how important that is before you're joining a company, before you're starting a marketing campaign.

听起来很简单，但正如我们看到的，要真正落实营销效果评估、证明营销的价值，其实非常困难。

Just it sounds so simple, but as we can see from this, it's actually a huge challenge to implementing things like marketing effectiveness and proving marketing's value.

这一切都始于：我们是否对要做的事达成了共识？

It all starts with, are we aligned on what we're going to be doing?

我们是否对要衡量的内容达成了一致？

Are we aligned on what we're measuring?

这可没听起来那么容易。

And it's not as easy as it might sound.

没错。

Right.

而且回到罗布提到的电视广告，这里面有区别：一个是追求即时反应，另一个是打造长期有效、让人记住的创意内容。

And even back to Rob's point related to television, there's a difference between driving immediate response and and ultimately long term building creative messaging that resonates and is memorable.

所以这不只是关于销量。

So it's not just sales focus.

而是要从头开始想：我们是否触达了正确的消费者？

It's all the way up to do we have the right consumer?

我们是否传递了正确的创意信息？

Do we have the right creative message?

我们怎么让整个团队在核心目标上达成一致，进而确定该用什么样的传播策略？

How do we gain alignment amongst the organization on what our core objective is and therefore what we think our messaging approach should be?

没错。

Right.

再深入一点，当我们分析创意过程，研究创意预测试中的各种诊断指标时，其实存在一个连续的光谱。

Well, even unpacking that for a minute, when you look at the creative process and and the kind of the ad diagnostics that we study in the pretesting of creative, there's a spectrum that we're looking at.

有效的东西从来不是靠单一因素，比如它是否让人记住，或者是否搞笑。

It's not just one thing that makes something effective, you know, obviously, is it memorable or is it humorous?

它有没有信息量？

Is it informative?

这些因素都会影响创意的效果，但光靠某一个方面是不够的。

You know, all of those things play a factor into the effectiveness of the creative itself, but it's not just one thing.

我们必须从更广的维度来看，才能判断哪些内容在市场上表现会最好。

And we have to look at that broad spectrum of attributes to determine, you know, what we feel is going to perform best in market.

你们有没有特别推崇的行业思想领袖？比如某些团队或者具体的人？

Do you guys have favorites, related to, like, thought leaders in the space, whether it be, you know, groups or specific people that you really lean into?

我得说，拜伦·夏普。

I've gotta say Byron Sharp.

我知道他算是营销效果领域的经典人物，但《品牌如何成长》是我读的第一本营销书。

I know that's sort of a classic marketing effectiveness thought leader, but How Brands Grow was one of the first marketing books I read.

我记得道格拉斯·伯内特曾在营销书籍播客里采访过他，我当时一集一集地听完了整个系列。

Believe that Douglas Burnett had him on the marketing book podcast, and I was going through and just listening to all those episodes.

我觉得他的书彻底改变了我对营销的看法，也影响了我在电视广告公司的工作方式。

And I think his book really just set my mindset in marketing and then also working at a TV agency.

我觉得书里的那些观点，完全能用在我们公司现在的业务上。

I felt like the learnings really applied to what we're doing as a company.

所以我后来就特别关注他的观点。

So I sort of leaned in there.

我特别喜欢他那种带点讽刺的风格。

And I love how snarky he can be.

不过我有点怕他哪天在我领英的帖子底下留言，直接开怼我。

However, I do live in fear of him commenting on one of my LinkedIn posts and trolling me.

要是真发生这种事，我可能真得换个领域了。

If that ever happened, I might have to switch disciplines.

如果他真留言了，那我觉得反而是件好事。

That would be an indicator of success, I would say, if he's commenting.

但他确实一向直言不讳，从不拐弯抹角。

But, yes, he is sort of a unapologetically blunt.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得我们有些人就特别喜欢他这一点。

I think some of us love that about him.

你呢，罗布？

What about you, Rob?

说实话，我对这个问题没有完美的答案。

You know, I don't have a perfect answer for this.

你们也知道，我是个技术宅，我更感兴趣的是如何预测营销效果，而不是单纯衡量它，还有现在营销领域里各种新兴的AI应用。

I'm a techie nerd, as you guys know, and I am really fixated on not as much the measurement of marketing effectiveness, but the predicting of marketing effectiveness is interesting to me, and all of the new applications for AI that are happening in the space.

所以我特别爱听那个每天更新的AI聊天播客。

So I love nerding out to like the AI Chat Podcast, which comes out every day.

虽然每期只有十分钟左右，但总能听到一些新出现的技术动态。

It's only like ten minutes, but there's always, you know, a sprinkling of different new emerging tech that's coming out there.

当然，那个《大型科技》播客也很有意思。

Obviously, like the Big Technology Podcast is fun.

《All In》那档节目挺棒的。

The all in guys are great.

我最近开始听卡拉·斯威舍和斯科特·加洛韦的《Pivot》。

And I recently got into pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway.

我觉得他们对AI如何影响营销效果预测有特别独到的见解。

I think they've got some really interesting perspectives in how AI is impacting the predicting of marketing effectiveness.

所以我是把这几样都混在一起看的。

So it's a little bit of all of that.

我也喜欢拜伦，跟你看法一致。

I do like Byron, and I agree with you.

AI毫无疑问会在这一领域提供帮助。

Like, AI is no question going to assist, I would think, in this realm.

但我觉得，我们得先统一目标，统一整个公司对效果衡量的标准。

But I think just like we have to have alignment on what we're trying to do, alignment on what measurement looks like across the business.

不然的话，它就只是众多观点里的一个而已，你知道的，如果

Otherwise, it's just another viewpoint, you know, if

我们打算

we're gonna

认真投入进去。

commit to it.

我觉得这并不是万能解方，当然我们都希望AI能解决所有问题。

So I don't think it's a silver bullet solution, which, of course, we all want AI to be for everything.

对吧？

Right?

我特别喜欢一个人，那是我最早接触到的比较有分量的内容，可以说是我思考的起点。他是个外部人士，有广告代理背景，他对各种效果问题的看法特别对我胃口。

I really love and it was the first substantial piece I would say I came across and has been kind of a jumping off point for me, the long and short of it, from an outside individual because he has an agency background, and I I really like his take on a variety of effectiveness topics.

他叫汤姆·罗奇，有自己的博客，叫《汤姆·罗奇》，经常就一些热门话题写文章。

Tom Roche, he's got his own blog, the Tom Roche, and often just takes topics that are of discussion.

有时候他会点评拜伦·夏普或者格蕾丝·基特的观点，再加入自己的分析，我觉得特别有启发。

Sometimes it's reflection on, you know, Byron Sharp position or Grace Kite's position and applies his own thinking to it too, and I think is of a lot of value.

我也特别喜欢‘长话短说’这个说法。

I love the long of the and the short of it too.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得这是那种经典之作，虽然被误解得不少，但依然在营销效果领域独树一帜。

I think that's that's one of those classics that's also been misinterpreted quite a bit, but still stands alone as pretty famous piece in marketing effectiveness.

说到研究，我也很好奇，你们各自最推崇的文献是哪些？

As far as research, I'm also curious what our favorite pieces would be.

我的话，非《吃掉你的谷物》莫属。

And mine would have to be eat your grains.

那是一本书。

That's a book.

它不是那种半成品，就是一本合集。

It's sort of a collect it's not sort of.

它汇集了大量关于营销效果的不同原则。

It is a collection of a lot of different marketing effectiveness principles.

如果你想找一本快速了解营销效果的入门书，这本特别合适，因为能接触到各种观点和大量数据。

And I think if you want sort of a crash course on marketing effectiveness, it's a great one to pick up just because you're going to get a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different data.

而且，确实，我特别喜欢这一本。

And, yeah, I really I really enjoyed that one.

我非常感谢他们发布的所有研究成果。

I really, appreciate all the stuff that's published from work.

他们总能推出很棒的内容，尤其是在创意效果这个话题上。

They've always have great stuff on, you know, in particular, on the topic of creative effectiveness.

我们非常推崇他们的工作。

So big big fans of their work.

太好了。

Perfect.

希望这些内容能给听众们提供一些值得关注的作者和值得深入研究的资料，特别是对营销效果感兴趣的人。

Well, hopefully, that gave the listeners some ideas of people to follow, research to dive into if you're interested in marketing effectiveness.

如果我要总结一下今天我们聊的内容的话。

And I think if I could sort of summarize what we talked about today.

营销效果正成为营销领域中一个日益重要的主题。

Marketing effectiveness is a growing topic within marketing.

很明显，营销人员现在都想重视这个问题，但首先得搞清楚‘营销效果’到底指的是什么，这才是真正的难点。

Clearly, marketers are wanting to prioritize it, but there is this challenge that really starts with defining what marketing effectiveness even is.

从这个问题入手，特别适合让团队和高层达成共识：我们为什么要在乎营销效果？

That's a great place to start getting your team and your senior stakeholders aligned on why do we care about marketing effectiveness?

我们到底能为品牌带来什么价值？

What do we think we can do for our brand?

接下来，相关的资料和方法论都很多，完全可以一步步在公司里落地营销效果的实践。

And then there's plenty of content, plenty of process to dive into to start to implement marketing effectiveness practices at your company.

但希望这期节目至少帮你理清了营销效果的一些基本概念——这确实是最好的起点。

But, hopefully, this episode helped just clear up some basics around marketing effectiveness, which is a great place to start.

好了，本期《营销架构师》就到这里。

That's it for this episode of the marketing architects.

欢迎在领英上关注我们。

You can connect with us on LinkedIn.

如果你觉得我们的节目有帮助，别忘了给我们打分和写评价。

And if you find our show valuable, please leave us a rating and review.

如果你想了解最新资讯背后的调研结果，可以访问 marketingarchitects.com/podcast 联系我们。

And if you wanna know what the research says about some recent news, you can contact us at marketingarchitects dot com slash podcast.

去吧，打造出色的营销。

Now go forth and build great marketing.