第089集：沼泽之魂

没什么。

Nothing.

没有。

No.

这些年来，有不同的研究。

If you either over the years, different there's been different studies.

他们检查过寄生虫数量，还有整体健康状况。

They've looked at parasite loads and just, you know, general health.

实际上，它们比我们本地的白尾鹿更干净、更健康。

And actually, they are cleaner and healthier than our native whitetail deer.

那个原始的小岛现在还有吗？

Does that original island still have some?

没有。

No.

那时候那个岛上的确没有。

That island at that time was No.

日本的那个岛？

The the the island in Japan?

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，那个亚种在那儿还存在。

Actually, they they still do have that subspecies.

但有趣的是，我们这儿的数量可能更多。

But the interesting thing is we probably have more.

我肯定我们这儿更多。

I'm sure we do.

我们这儿的数量比他们那儿还多。

We have more here than what they have over there.

有没有人把日本那个岛上的个体和我们这儿的放在一起比较过？看看有没有明显差异？因为刚开始种群数量少的时候，可能会出现一些变化。

Has anyone ever taken one from that island in Japan and one from here and just stood them next to each other to see if there's some visible because like when you just start a population with a small amount, you could have some

对。

Yeah.

你可能会遇到一些长相特别怪异的个体。

You would some freaks.

对吧？

Right?

你可能会发现一些不寻常的动物，然后如果……

You would have You could have some unusual animals and then have and create sort of like a If you

你上网看看图片，它们长得一模一样。

look at pictures on the Internet, they're identical.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你看到一张来自屋久岛的鹿的照片，你肯定会以为那是南卡罗来纳州多切斯特县的鹿。

You would say if you looked at one for a picture of one from Yukushima Island, you'd think you were looking at a Dorchester County, Sika.

当它们最初把它们放养到那里的时候，有人试图管理它们吗？

So when they first when they first dropped him in, were people trying to regulate him?

没有。

No.

你本来可以

You could

要是看见他，直接杀了就行。

just kill him if you saw him.

早期确实没有狩猎季节和配额限制，说实话，当时他根本不算什么热门猎物。

Early on, yeah, early on, there weren't seasons and bag limits for him, and they weren't very popular, to be honest with you, you know, for as far as a hunt hunted species go.

真正开始有管理措施大概是在八十年代，那时候我们才真正警觉起来，意识到这事儿可能出问题，可能会带来麻烦。

Regulations really started in the probably in the eighties, I guess, was when was when we started really got aggressive, you know, started recognizing, hey, they may be an issue, they could be a problem.

后来才慢慢出台管理措施，但目的不是要消灭它们，你知道的，它们在这儿其实找到了自己的生存空间。

And they started to be regulated in that manner to try to not not to get rid of them, you know, we never they kinda found a niche down here.

它们跟海狸鼠那种入侵物种不一样。

They're not like an invasive species like nutria.

所以我们从来就没想过要像对付海狸鼠那样彻底清除它们，因为它们已经适应了这里，而且还挺受欢迎的。

So we've never approached it that we with the philosophy that we were gonna eradicate them like nutria, Because they have kind of found a niche, and they're they're popular.

但另一方面，我们也不希望整个德尔马瓦半岛到处都是它们。

But at the same time, we don't want a whole Delmarva Peninsula full of secondary either.

所以

So

你并不希望那样吧？

You do not want that?

不想。

No.

不想。

No.

我们希望尽量把它们控制在多彻斯特这里，

We wanna try to keep them here in Dorchester and

但它们现在确实在扩散。

But they've they've expand they they're, like, expanding now.

慢慢地。

Slowly.

是的。

Yeah.

他们已经扩展了。

They have expanded.

你知道，他们现在到特拉华州了。

You know, they're in Delaware now.

特拉华州那边已经接待了几个。

We've had Delaware has had a couple

他们对这事怎么看？

What's their take on them?

已经收编了。

Harvested.

他们更希望把他们留下。

They would prefer to keep

把他们拒之门外。

them out.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，是不是在已知区域周围有个界限？

So is it is that is there a line around the known?

就像史蒂夫刚才说的那样。

Like, Steve, you were saying this.

你管那个半岛叫什么来着？

If you look at what do you call the Peninsula?

我们知道我们位于德尔马瓦半岛上。

We're I know we're on the Delmarva Peninsula.

给大伙儿解释一下，好让大家明白。

Explain that just for people to to to understand.

那片土地位于切萨皮克湾和大西洋之间，包括整个特拉华州、切萨皮克湾东岸的马里兰州部分，还有弗吉尼亚州的那一块。

Well, that's that big chunk of land between the Chesapeake Bay and the Atlantic Ocean comprised of all of the state of Delaware, the portion of Maryland that's on the Eastern Shore of the Chesapeake Bay, and then the Virginia portion.

所以‘德尔马瓦’这个名字就是这么来的。

So Delmarva is how the peninsula gets

那个到处都是鹿的半岛叫什么？

And what's the peninsula that has all the deer?

你看看这些地方，这片陆地有没有什么名字，算不算个半岛，还是

If you look at them, does does that have a name as a peninsula or is

就只是多彻斯特县？

that just Dorchester County?

对。

Yeah.

多彻斯特县位于乔普坦河和南蒂科克河之间。

Dorchester County is is, sits between the Choptank and the Nanticoke River.

所以它看起来有点像半岛，但没人把它当半岛看待。

So it it sort of forms a peninsula, I guess, but it's not recognized as one.

没错。

Yeah.

如果你看地图，找到马里兰州的多彻斯特县，就会发现这个县正好坐落在一个半岛上，还有一条公路——50号公路——斜着穿过半岛的根部。

And if you're looking at a map and you find if if you go to to Maryland and then you find Dorchester County, you'll see there's a highway sort of at that that county sort of sits on a peninsula, and there's a highway that kinda cuts the the the the base of the peninsula diagonally 50, Highway 50.

对吧？

Right?

这些鹿大多生活在那条公路的南边和西边。

And most of these deer live south and west of of that highway.

对吗？

Is that correct?

没错。

Correct.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

That's correct.

大概有多少只呢？

And it's about how many?

根据我们的模型估算，数量大概在一万到一万五千只之间，这还是最少的估计。

Well, our modeling would put it somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand, that's probably minimum.

我们每年捕猎三千只。

We harvest 3,000 a year.

所以你看，如果你每年猎杀的动物占总数的四分之一左右，那

So, you know, I mean, if you look at a percentage if you're harvesting 25% of your animals or so, that

这个数字应该就在一万到一万五千之间。

would put you in that ballpark somewhere between ten and ten and fifteen thousand probably.

有没有人画过一个明确的区域范围呢？

And is there like a is has anyone gone and drawn a band?

比如你说它们在这里是被允许的，因为它们不跟其他动物抢地盘，而且特别受猎人欢迎。

Like, if you say that they're welcome here because they're not they're occupying one, they're very popular with hunters.

它们活动的区域跟白尾鹿不一样，基本不会直接冲突。

And they're occupying a landscape where they're not really coming into direct contact with they use the area differently than white tails.

没错。

Right.

它们喜欢待在白尾鹿不爱去的地方。

They like to hang out in places that whitetails don't like to hang out.

没错。

Right.

但有没有人明确划过一条线，说这条线以外的这些鹿就完全不能出现？

But has anyone ever drawn a line and said that we will have zero tolerance for these deer across this line?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我们从没这么非黑即白地看待这个问题。

We don't approach it from that from that, you know, to that black and white of a degree.

就像我说的，我们只是希望它们主要留在南多彻斯特地区。

It's just, you know, like I said, we we would like to keep them in in Southern Dorchester.

它们其实已经出现在威科米科了。

You know, they're in they're in Wicomico.

萨默塞特也有几只。

They're in Somerset, a few of them in Somerset.

总的来说，它们正沿着我们的河流往北扩散，比如乔普潭、南塔科克河，还有南塔科克河支流的马什霍普地区。

Generally, they're expanding up our rivers, you know, that whether it's the the Chop Tank or the Nanticoke, the Marshy Hope off the Nanticoke.

所以他们就这样慢慢扩散到了卡罗琳县的一些地方。

That's how, like, they're finding their way into Caroline in some of these areas.

所以我们只能调整狩猎季节和猎捕配额，尽量把这群鹿控制在多彻斯特县境内。

So, you know, we'll just tweak seasons and bag limits to try to to try to keep that population here, you know, contained in Dorchester as much as we can.

但真的，从来没人设过一条明确的界限。

But but no, there's never been really a hard line drawn.

我的意思是

I mean

你们觉得通过调整狩猎季节，能像开关阀门一样精准控制数量吗？

And do you feel like you guys can can you like open and close the valve pretty reliably by by tweaking hunting seasons?

不行，我们做不到。

No, we can't.

我们只能尽力而为，但猎人数量不够，而且很多本地人也不认同这种做法。

You know, we can do our best, but we don't have enough hunters, and a lot of the locals down here would disagree with that.

说实话，我们根本没足够的猎人和狩猎压力来有效控制这个物种，白尾鹿也一样。

But in all honesty, we don't have enough hunters and enough hunting pressure to really regulate this species or or white tails for that matter.

我们的猎人已经满负荷了。

Our hunters are saturated.

所以，我的意思是

So, you know, I mean

你说猎人满负荷是什么意思？

What do mean your hunters are saturated?

指的是狩猎季节和猎物限额方面。

As far as seasons at bag limits.

我的意思是，我们现在

I mean, we're very we're very

很好

good

现在的情况是这样。

right now.

我们现在的政策非常宽松。

We're we're very liberal.

是的。

Yeah.

我们现在的鹿猎情况就像过去的好时光一样，从九月一直能猎到次年一月底，如果你在这里用弓箭猎白尾鹿，根本没有任何数量限制。

They have we have a very we're in the good old days of deer hunting, you know, when you can hunt from September to the end of January, and we have if you're archery hunting whitetails down here, you can we there's no limit.

你可以猎取无角的母鹿。

You can antlerless.

一年内，用弓箭猎取无角白尾鹿，想猎多少都行。

You can harvest as many antlerless whitetails with archery equipment as you want in a in a year.

所以，我们普通猎人平均每年猎杀的鹿，我觉得现在是正好两只。

So, you know, our average hunter takes, well, I think it's I think it's just two point zero deer now.

以前好多年都是1.9只，但现在平均是两只，因为大家觉得这个量刚好够用，没必要多猎，也不愿意多花力气。

It was 1.9 deer for a lot of years, but our average hunter takes two point zero deer a year because that's what they can use, and that's you know, they're not gonna waste deer and and and expend more effort.

而且我们的猎人数量一直很稳定。

So, you know, and our hunter numbers are fairly stable.

过去十年来都没太大变化，但我们现在的猎人数量，只有七十年代高峰期的一半。

They've been stable over the last, you know, ten years or so, but but we have half as many hunters as what we had when we peaked back in the seventies.

这可不是马里兰州独有的现象，你知道的，确实如此。

And that's not just a Maryland phenomena, you know, mean Yeah.

你看看东部地区，中西部和西部还好，但东部的猎人数量确实大幅下降。

You look in the East, not so bad in the Midwest or the West, but in the East, I mean, hunter numbers are really seriously declining.

所以作为鹿类管理者，这确实让人担忧。

So as a deer manager, it kinda concerns you.

所以，霍梅特，你想想，现在参与的人数只有七十年代的一半左右，对吧？

So So, Homet, there's how many like, hey.

一代人以前，参与人数只剩一半了。

If you've if you have half, like, half the participation you had in the seventies Yeah.

那是上一代的事了。

A generation ago.

是的。

Yeah.

那现在鹿的数量比七十年代多了还是少了？你知道大概差多少吗？

How many what what's the do you know, like, how many how many more or less deer do you have now than the seventies?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我们现在拥有的鹿是以前的十倍。

We have 10 times as many deer as

现在每个人对应的鹿多太多了。

So there's way more deer per person.

对。

Yeah.

那以前的人是怎么做的呢？

So What were they doing back then?

那时候，很多人根本不是猎鹿人。

Well, you know, a lot of them weren't deer hunters back then.

我应该说清楚，他们是看中了鹿的美观。

I should They're beauty.

我得澄清一下。

I should clarify that.

你明白吧？

You know?

我的意思是，我说猎人减少一半，指的是所有类型的猎人。

I mean, I mean, that when I'm saying when I'm saying half as many hunters, that's all hunters.

这包括小型猎物。

So that's small game.

我懂了。

I see.

这还包括水禽。

That's waterfowl.

还有鹿之类的。

That's deer, etcetera.

那时候猎鹿的人少，是因为鹿本身就没现在多，这很明显。

Because and we didn't have as many deer hunters back then because there weren't as many deer, obviously.

所以，现在猎鹿的人可能比七十年代还多，但这是因为狩猎类型变了——比如野鸡，现在根本见不到了。

So, you know, we may have we probably have more deer hunters now than what we had in the seventies, But it's just because of that shift from small game, you know, we don't have pheasants anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

你可能不了解这段历史。

You probably don't know that history.

这得另说一回了。

That's a that's for another talk.

卖很多

Sell a ton of

野鸡，是的。

pheasant Yeah.

你知道，六七十年代的时候，野鸡特别受欢迎，属于小动物狩猎的一种，现在在中西部地区依然很流行。

Pests You know, well, back in back in the sixties, seventies, pheasants were really popular, you know, small game species, and they still are in the mid, you know, in the Midwest.

但很多猎人看到野鸡没了，就转去猎鹿了。

But a lot of our hunters when when when pheasants went away, they shift some of them shifted to deer.

有些人可能干脆不打猎了，或者继续猎水禽。

Some of them probably stopped hunting or just kept hunting waterfowl.

所以，我们总的猎人数量，远不如以前那么多了。

So, you know, we total numbers, we don't have near the the hunter effort that we that we used to have.

猎鹿的天数实际上是在九十年代达到顶峰的，大概有一百万天左右，我觉得当时猎鹿的总天数可能接近一百七十五万天。

And and and deer hunting days, actual number of deer hunting days peaked in the nineties, actually, at about a 100 and I think we had probably a hundred and seventy five thousand days of deer deer hunting effort.

现在呢，我最后一次估算大概是八万天左右。

And now we have, I think my last estimate was about 80,000.

所以，差不多只剩一半了。

So again, about about half.

猎鹿的天数减少了一半？

Half as many of the hunter days?

猎鹿的天数确实减少了一半，但猎人每单位努力猎到的鹿反而多了将近一倍。

Half as many hunter days going towards deer, but they're killing probably twice as many deer for that half effort.

是的。

Yeah.

现在麋鹿的数量比历史上任何时候都多吗？

So are there more Sika deer now than at any time in Sika deer history?

我们的模型会说，是的。

Our models would say, yeah.

所以最近虽然有波动，但就过去五年来看，确实是这样。

So the last now it bounces around, but but just and just say the last five years, yes.

过去五年里的麋鹿数量比历史上任何时期都多。

There's more over the last five years, there's there's more sick of deer, sick of deer than than any time in history.

它们的数量正在增长。

Their population is increasing.

对。

Yeah.

我再回到麋鹿的话题上。

I'm going back to Sika.

是的。

Yeah.

数量在增加。

Population's increasing.

所以

So

大家普遍认为，猎杀它们更困难吗？

there is the consensus that they're harder that it's harder to hunt them?

我刚才看了你的报告，有件事想说一下。

Because here's the thing I was reading in your report.

比什么更难猎杀？

Harder to hunt them than what?

比猎杀白尾鹿更难。

Harder than hunting whitetails.

因为它们的寿命比白尾鹿长得多。

Because they live so much longer than whitetails.

对吧？

Right?

确实如此。

They do.

这让你觉得可能是其中一只，但我也不确定这是否意味着它们更难猎捕。

Which leads you to believe that it's like one of them has a I don't that might not mean they're harder to hunt.

只是它们死于其他原因的概率低得多。

It's just there's like less chance that they're gonna die from something.

对。

Yeah.

十来岁的很常见。

Like 10 year olds are common.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我不敢说很常见，但我知道至少有六只超过二十岁的，都是八九十年代后期被标记过的，我亲手接触过。

I I well, I don't know if I'd say common, but we've had I we probably had a half a dozen that I know are over 20 that I've had my hands on that were tagged back in, the late eighties or early nineties.

所以你不是靠牙齿分析来判断的。

So you know that you're not going by tooth analysis.

你是靠有人记得什么时候给它挂了标签。

You're going by someone knows the year they hung a tag on that thing.

所以它被标记的时候就已经活着了。

So it was already live when it got tagged.

是的。

Yeah.

不过也有不少是通过牙齿分析得出的。

Or and and some of those were by tooth analysis.

但没错，确实是这样。

But but yeah.

我的意思是，我们确实遇到过二十多岁的。

You know, I mean, we've had we've had them over 20.

它们又不是从树上掉下来的，但确实如此。

Again, they're not falling out of trees, but but yeah.

这并不罕见。

It's not uncommon.

它们的寿命确实比白尾鹿长得多。

They're definitely longer lived than whitetails.

你觉得它们比白尾鹿活得久，但你其实也说不准吧。

Do you think they're longer lived than whitetails because you probably can't you probably can't know this.

没错。

Absolutely.

它们活得久，是因为本身寿命就长吗？

Are they longer lived than whitetails just because they're just they live longer?

还是说，它们面临的天敌情况不一样？

Just or is it because of predation is different on them?

其他人也可以补充，但我觉得主要是它们的习性让捕猎难度更高。

The other ones can chime in, but I would say predation's different as in, as in their their natural habits just make them a little harder to hunt.

它们更偏向夜间活动。

They're a little more nocturnal.

它们生活的环境本来就更难狩猎。

The habitat they're in is is harder to hunt.

你总听说它们比白尾鹿更聪明。

You know, you always hear all they're smarter than white tails.

我觉得它们并不比白尾鹿更聪明。

I I don't think they're smarter than white tails.

没错。

No.

它们只是生活在十二英尺高的地方。

They just live in they live in 12 foot tall.

它们就生活在十二英尺高的地方。

They live in 12 foot tall.

对。

Right.

它们的隐蔽环境是

Their security cover is

没错。

Right.

这给了它们躲避狩猎压力的机会，它们就会像这样变成夜间活动。

Just provides them an opportunity to escape hunting pressure, and they'll turn nocturnal like that.

对。

Yeah.

它们会利用地面，就像棉尾兔利用灌木丛一样。

They use use the ground like how a cottontail uses a briar pack.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

马里兰州很多人也会用诱饵。

And a lot of people in Maryland use bait as well.

而且我认为诱饵往往会促使它们更倾向于夜间活动，所以。

And I believe that bait tends to favor nocturnal behaviors as So

尽管

despite

我觉得这反而降低了他们的狩猎成功率。

the fact that I think it enhances their hunting success, I actually think it contributes to less success.

这会让鹿群聚集在一起。

It concentrates the deer.

它们不需要走那么远。

They don't have to move as much.

如果它们得自己到处找天然食物，移动时更容易遇到猎人，但现在就没那么暴露了。

They're not exposed to hunters as they move across the landscape as they would if they had to forage for natural foods.

所以我觉得这让它们的活动范围变小了，也就减少了每只鹿面临的狩猎压力。

So I think it helps to sort of keep them small home ranges and that, you know, helps to minimize the pressure on an individual deer.

确实有些鹿活得更久。

You do get some that live a lot longer.

我有个问题。

What I got a question.

Marsh 是

Marsh is

是的

Yeah.

在保护区内允许使用诱饵吗？

Baiting allowed on the refuge?

不允许。

No.

禁止使用诱饵。

Baiting is not allowed.

哦。

Oh.

对。

Yep.

有任何保护区允许吗？

Any of the refuges?

都没有。

None.

而且公共土地也不行。

And and and no public land either.

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's correct.

公共土地上也不能用诱饵。

No baiting on public land.

对。

No.

只能在私人土地上用诱饵。

Baiting to private land only.

但私人土地上用得可多了。

But it's really heavily used on private land.

对吧？

Right?

确实如此。

Unfortunately, it is.

土地所有权就像一块拼布被子。

And we're like a it's like a patchwork quilt of land ownership.

比如黑水保护区。

So you've got Blackwater.

那片地连成一大片。

It's a lot of contiguous land.

我们这儿差不多有三万英亩，但周围到处都是私人地主，尤其是不少花鹿俱乐部，把整个保护区搞得支离破碎。

We've got about almost 30,000 acres, but you've got these private landowners, a lot of Sika clubs in particular, pockmarking the whole refuge as well.

还在大量种玉米。

And cranking out corn.

是的。

Mhmm.

对。

Yep.

所以这确实会对方方面面产生影响。

So it certainly impacts everything.

那么从保护区的角度来看，国家野生动物保护区是怎么确定这一点的呢？

So how how is it, like, on the from the refuge side of things, how is it determined by a National Wildlife Refuge

是的。

Mhmm.

到底是允许还是不允许投喂诱饵？

To allow or not allow bait?

我的意思是，这会不会是华盛顿那边做出的一个决定，然后直接适用于所有的保护区？

I mean, is that something that would just is that something that would a decision that would be made in DC that would just apply to all refuges?

还是说这是各个保护区可以自行决定的事情？

Is that an individual decision that a refuge can make for itself?

嗯，这个问题问得好。

Well, that's a great question.

我们作为国家野生动物保护区所做的一切，都取决于这项活动是会损害还是促进野生动物保护。

Everything that we do as a National Wildlife as a National Wildlife Refuge all depends on is it gonna harm or or improve wildlife conservation?

所以，这是我们首先要问的问题。

So that's the first question we have.

我们允许所谓的六大优先用途，分别是狩猎、钓鱼、野生动物摄影、观鸟、环境教育和解说服务。

And we allow what we call the big six, which are six priority uses, hunting, fishing, wildlife photography, wildlife observation, environmental education, and interpretation.

这些用途其实都写在1997年的《国家野生动物保护区改善法案》里，明确说我们的使命就是保护野生动物。

These things are actually in a law called the National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of, 1997 that says, we're here for wildlife.

这就是我们的宗旨。

That's the purpose.

我们之所以在这里，扎根在一线，就是因为这个目标。

That's why we're dedicated and we're on the ground.

每个保护区的具体使命也会略有不同。

And each refuge will have a little bit different purpose.

比如，布莱克沃特保护区1933年建立时，主要就是为了保护水禽。

So for instance, Blackwater is was formed in 1933 for waterfowl primarily.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这就是我们存在的主要目的。

So that's our primary reason why we're here.

这其实是为了应对水禽数量的急剧减少。

And that was kind of in response to the great decimation of waterfowl.

对吧？

Right?

当保护区系统刚开始建立时，这是全国范围内恢复水禽努力的一部分。

Like when when the refuge system started to spring up, it was this part of a national effort to recover waterfowl.

是的。

Yeah.

当时还有羽毛贸易在盛行。

And market, the the millinery trade was going on as well.

总的来说，对水禽和其他鸟类的商业捕猎也很猖獗。

So market hunting in general for waterfowl, for other types of birds, for a fresh

帽饰行业？

millinery trade?

是的。

Yeah.

上世纪初的帽饰行业，人们会猎杀白鹭甚至蜂鸟，把它们的羽毛直接插在帽子上。

The millinery trade back in the early nineteen hundreds where people would kill egrets and even hummingbirds and so forth to put them in their hats, literally.

对。

Yeah.

我们刚才也在说罗斯福。

We were talking about Roosevelt either.

如果你读过

If you read

我们再回来说罗斯福。

Back to Roosevelt.

是的。

Yeah.

你读过他早期的文章，他简直对这个行业大加抨击。

You read his earlier writings, I mean, he just rails against that industry.

是的。

Yes.

那时候人们真的可以随便出门打猎，逮到什么鸟都抓。

And because you used to be able to go out I mean, people would just go out and hunt any bird.

对。

Yeah.

你出门就打涉禽、鹭鸟，只要是能抓到的都往回带。

You just go out and shoot shorebirds, herons, anything you could get your hands on Right.

就是为了卖羽毛。

To sell feathers.

没错。

Right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

这就像大家对这个猎杀水牛取皮的故事都很熟悉一样。

It's kinda like people are so familiar with that story about shooting buffalo for hides.

对吧？

Right?

还有猎杀旅鸽当肉吃，但人们没意识到非狩猎鸟类被大量消灭的情况，而且

Shooting passenger pigeons for meat, but people don't realize the the decimation of non game birds and also

没错。

Yep.

那时候确实是这样

That was happening

不仅是为了猎肉，连滨鸟也被大量捕杀

in same market hunting for meat, but also just the decimation of shorebirds

对

Yes.

用来装饰人们的帽子

For guys for tricking out people's hats.

是的

Yep.

他们帽子上会插满白鹭的羽毛，各种特别华丽的帽子。

They'd have these egret plumage in their hats, all sorts of really fancy hats.

这生意利润相当不错。

And it was pretty good money.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

你读过一些人靠这个赚了小笔财富的故事。

You read about guys making, like, small fortunes on it.

对。

Yeah.

而且，第一个自然保护区是1903年由西奥多·罗斯福通过行政命令设立的，就是佛罗里达附近的鹈鹕岛。

And and, Teddy, the very first refuge that was ever formed was in nineteen o three by Teddy Roosevelt by executive order was Pelican Island off of Florida.

没错。

That's right.

我最近刚读到过这件事。

I was reading about that.

是的。

Yeah.

因为那时候人们疯狂捕杀白鹭、鹈鹕和其他各种鸟类，就为了抢它们的羽毛。

Because people would just be they were just decimating the egrets and the pelicans and other types of anything out there for feathers in particular.

对。

Yeah.

我其实也不太好意思去苛责那些人，要是我生在那个年代，估计也会一头扎进这行里。

I try to look down on those guys that were doing that too much because I would have been if I if I was alive at that time, I would have been totally involved in that business.

这让我挺惊讶的，因为我觉得他们当时根本没意识到问题有多严重。

That had doubled my mind because I don't know that they were really aware.

我觉得人们很难真正理解资源是有限的这个概念。

I think people have a hard time conceptualizing like a finiteness.

是的

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

所以总是那些有远见的人。

So it's always the visionaries.

对吧？

Right?

就像当年抱怨的那个人，现在还在抱怨别的事，可人们都不当回事。

Like this the guy that was complaining then would be the same guy that's complaining about something now and people are brushing him off.

这说明我们还没停止犯错。

Is that we're not like done making mistakes.

没错。

No.

一点都没停。

Not at all.

你懂的。

You know?

我们都觉得，哎呀，这太可笑了。

We all act like, oh, you know, it's so silly.

我爸爸以前总爱开玩笑，说二战时他们军粮里会塞香烟。

Like, my dad always liked to joke that they would put cigarettes in his sea rations during World War two.

每顿饭都配三根香烟。

So like every meal you got had three cigarettes in it.

现在我们还拿这事当笑话讲。

And then we laugh about it now.

但我们现在做的某些事，其实和当年一样荒唐，将来我们的孩子也会笑话我们，根本没意识到有多蠢。

But right now we're making right now we're doing something as equally stupid that our children will laugh about that we didn't realize how stupid it was.

就是说，我们其实

Like, we're not, you know

对。

Right.

人类总会不断犯错，事后才恍然大悟，这种错误永远都犯不完。

We never were there's an inexhaustible supply of mistakes people make and then later get hindsight.

那时候，我觉得罗斯福就因为老抱怨这事，被人狠狠批评了一通。

So at the time, I think Roosevelt was, like, criticized for how much he griped about it.

是啊。

Yeah.

他这是在终结好日子啊。

Putting an end to the good times.

没错。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

昨天我们听了一位先生一肚子牢骚，他特别生气，觉得任何钓鱼配额或管理规定都在毁掉生计。

We got a earful yesterday about a guy, we got a earful yesterday by a guy who's, sounds like very upset about any form of bag limits or regulations.

这是在断人饭碗啊。

Ruining people's livelihoods.

在《血迹追踪》里，猎杀结束并不意味着故事就此完结。

On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over.

事情只会变得更黑暗。

They just get darker.

我在路上看到一些东西。

I've seen something in the road.

我第一反应以为是睡袋，结果下面有一摊血。

I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag, and there was a pool of blood.

天哪。

Oh my god.

他连头都没有了。

He doesn't have a head.

《血迹追踪》是一档诞生于户外的真罪播客，这里地形残酷，证据稀少，真相往往被灌木和沉默掩埋。

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

迹象显示他应该就在那儿，可他根本不在。

Indications were he should be right there, and but he wasn't.

这个季节，我们要深入更多真相。

This season, we're going deeper.

从积压的悬案档案，到无人敢说的猜疑。

From cold case files to whispered suspicions.

从偏远的高山，到冰封的荒野，每个故事都始于旷野，终于黑暗。

From remote mountains to frozen backwoods, each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness.

因为在这里，没有目击者，没有摄像头，只有零散的线索，和那些试图拼回真相的幸存者。

Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together.

他不是一个诚实的人。

He's not an honest person.

他根本做不到诚实。

He's incapable of being honest.

肯定有人， somewhere，知道点什么。

Somebody somewhere knows something.

我是乔丹·西勒。

I'm Jordan Sillers.

《Blood Trails》第二季将于4月16日开播。

Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16.

请在Apple、iHeart、YouTube，或你常用的播客平台关注我们。

Follow now on Apple, iHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

所以说。

So Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们在保护区做的每一件事，都会问：这会不会影响野生动物保护？

So everything we do on the refuge, we look at, is it gonna be compatible with wildlife conservation?

这会不会损害生物多样性？

Is it gonna hurt biodiversity?

这会不会违背保护区设立的初衷？

Is it gonna hurt the purposes of the refuge in particular?

说到诱饵捕猎，除了我们刚才说的那些问题，它还会对物种造成很多其他影响。

And when you look at baiting, there's a lot of impacts that come from baiting besides the fact you're like, all the things we we just talked about, you're impacting those species.

那人们是怎么把玉米运到那里的呢？

You're also gonna be what do people do to get their corn out there?

他们用全地形车。

They take quads.

各种各样的方式，没错。

They, all sorts of, yeah.

结果把地面都毁了。

They end up ruining the ground.

而且

And

而且你知道，这

And it's, you know, it's

影响很大，确实。

It's a big impact Yeah.

对

On the

从州政府的角度来看，这也是个问题。

From state perspective, I mean, too.

说白了，你得面对诱饵带来的生物问题，还有随之而来的疾病风险。

I mean, just it's it's you got the biological issue of baiting and, you know, and the disease issues that go along with that.

但在公共土地上，还有一整套社会问题。

But then on public land, you got that whole social issue.

有人把诱饵放出去，

I mean, somebody puts bait out

对。

Mhmm.

结果下一个猎人赶到时，还没等放诱饵的人回来，就直接在那儿设伏了。

And then the next hunter gets there before the guy that put the bait out and sets up over.

这事儿真能想象得出来。

Oh, you could imagine that.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你能想象吧。

I mean, you could imagine.

想想看，这种做法会引发多大争议。

Imagine how that would go over.

对。

Yeah.

不过我小时候，那时候是允许的。

Well, when I was growing up though, you were allowed

这跟他们的做法根本没法兼容。

It's just not compatible with their not

这可不是个好主意。

a good idea.

对。

Yeah.

我小时候挺有意思的，那时候用诱饵完全是开放的。

When I was growing up, it was funny because you could at the time, it was bait was wide open.

我小时候在密歇根州猎鹿的时候，情况就是这样。

Like when I grew up in Michigan for deer Right.

确实如此。

There was Yeah.

后来因为疾病等问题，他们开始限制投放饵料的时间。

Later, they started putting later because of the disease issues and other things, they started putting limits on time when you put it out there.

但我们以前会去那儿，真的可以买到——我不是在开玩笑。

But we used to go down and you could buy this I'm not joking.

我们去密歇根州的格兰特，能装满一整辆皮卡的次品胡萝卜。

We go to Grant, Michigan and you could fill a pickup truck up with reject carrots.

那些长得奇形怪状的胡萝卜，啥样都有，你想象得到的都有。

Misshapen carrots with like that look like weird anatomical features, you name it.

你去超市买一袋胡萝卜，都是笔直漂亮的，其实那种才占三分之一左右。

Like carrots that were not like when you go buy a bag of carrots and they're all just like these beautiful straight carrots, that's that's like one in three.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

剩下的都拿去榨汁或做饲料了，对的。

The rest go for juice and pulp and Yeah.

动物饲料。

Animal fodder.

但你花五美元就能装满一整辆卡车。

But you could you could fill a truck for $5.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就把它们倒进树林里。

And then you'd go dump it out in the woods.

我们当时还抱怨，但那是因为我们知道这真的改变了鹿的行为方式。

And we even griped about it, but it was like, we griped about it because we were aware that it really changed the way deer act.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

把它们逼得更夜间活动，改变了它们的移动路线。

Pushing them toward being nocturnal, changing their travel patterns.

但说到底，与其对抗，不如顺应。

But it was like, you can't beat them, join them.

这现在就是马里兰州的处事哲学。

And that's the philosophy in Maryland today.

所以我们心里也觉得，唉，用饵料确实不地道。

So we would be like, yeah, it sucks that you can bait.

但还是去把饵料撒上吧。

Let's go put the bait out.

对啊。

Right.

如果让我重过一遍童年，我会换种方式，干脆就不干这事儿。

Because if I had to do childhood all over again, I would take a different approach and I would just not do it.

因为我觉得你这么做并不是出于道德考量。

Because I feel like you're not I would not do it out of some moral thing.

我只是觉得，如果你能去看看它们原本在哪儿活动，你会对动物有更深的了解。

I just feel like I would have learned so much more about animals had you looked at had you been able to go look at like, well, where are they naturally?

没错。

Right.

而不是想着怎么把它们赶到哪儿去。

Instead of like, where can I make them go?

那才是更有意思的功课。

It's just a much more interesting lesson.

比如，我确实学到鹿特别爱吃胡萝卜，这挺有趣的。

Like, you can learn it like, yes, I learned the really interesting thing that deer love carrots.

但你本可以学到更深层的东西——鹿不在胡萝卜旁边的时候，它们到底在干什么。

Or you could have learned like, what are deer doing when they're not eating on the carrots that you stuck out in the woods.

我把这叫做‘随身携带的侦察’。

I call it scouting in a bag.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

在我心里，这取代了野外生存技能。

Replaces woodsmanship in my mind.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，确实。

Well, yeah.

而且这话是从我这样一个亲身参与过的人嘴里说出来的——我刚才说了，我很难去指责它，因为我从12岁合法开始玩弓箭狩猎起，一直到18岁，一直都在投喂诱饵。

And and this is coming from a guy that engage like, I'm not like I said, I can hardly condemn it because it was something I was heavily engaged in from the time I was, well, legally bowhunt at 12 while I was running bait from the time I was 12 to the time I was 18.

是的。

Yeah.

而且说实话，它确实也有它的用处。

And I mean, and it does have its it does have its usefulness.

我的意思是，就像我说的，我们经常面临城市和郊区鹿群的问题。

I mean, you know, like I said, we struggle with urban and suburban deer issues all the time.

有时候，这种做法确实能让你接触到平时根本碰不到的鹿。

And there's cases where it does give you access to deer that you otherwise may not.

比如说，你有个鹿群的避难所——不是国家野生动物保护区那种，就是自然形成的隐蔽地，你根本没法靠近打猎，这时候用诱饵把它们引到能狩猎的区域，或许就管用了。

You know, if you you have a refuge of deer, not not National Wildlife Refuge, but just an actual, you know, a natural refuge where you can't get the deer to hunt them, you know, you might be able to bait and pull some of those deer over to an area where you can hunt.

所以，它确实有它的用处。

So so it does have some usefulness.

但说实话，我真希望我们的猎人们能……

But but, you know, I wish our hunters yeah.

就像你说的，我们得重新找回一些野外生存的本事。

Like you said, I mean, we need to get back to some more woodsmanship.

今年就是个很好的例子。

This year is a great example.

今年梅里特地区的橡果收成特别好。

It's a really good acorn year in Merit this year.

满地都是橡果。

There's acorns everywhere.

鹿都会去找橡果吃。

Deer are gonna be on acorns.

它们才不会去玉米地呢。

They're not gonna go to corn.

我们的猎人还守在玉米地里，却连只鹿都看不到，因为鹿都跑到最近的白橡树、红橡树、黑橡树那儿去了。

Our hunters are gonna continue to sit on corn, not see any deer because the deer are at the nearest white oak or, you know, a red oak or black oak or whatever.

所以狩猎成功率肯定会下降。

So success is gonna go down.

你也这么觉得吗？

You think so?

是的。

Yeah.

毫无疑问。

No doubt.

我的意思是，阿巴拉契亚地区的任何一个州都能拿出数据，说明只要橡果丰收年，鹿的捕猎数量就会下降。

I mean, any state in the Appalachian can show you data that when we have a good mast year, deer kill goes down.

这就是原因。

And that that's why.

因为鹿都跑去吃橡果了，根本不用到处跑着找吃的。

Because there's deer on acorns, and, you know, they're not they don't have to move as much for food.

所以那些守在玉米地里的人，猎到鹿的机会越来越少了。

So dudes sitting over corn is growing.

就连那些禁止诱饵的州，也照样能看到这种下降趋势。

Well, or or even the states that don't that don't allow baiting still show that drop.

我明白了。

Oh, I see.

原来如此。

I see.

就连那些州的鹿群收获量，也确实出现了下滑。

They even those states show that drop in in the harvest.

因为他们觉得

Because they feel like

它们分布得更分散了。

it's They're just more dispersed.

对。

Yeah.

猎人们没有调整策略吗？还是说就是这样？

The hunters are not adapting, or is that it?

鹿其实更难猎了？

That the the the deer are actually harder to hunt?

确实，鹿更难猎了，因为它们更分散，你也不太容易摸清它们的活动规律。

Well, they're they're harder to hunt in a way because, yeah, they are more scattered and more you know, you can't pattern them as well.

我觉得我们现在这一代猎人，往往不考虑鹿的自然习性、天然食物来源，也不太清楚该去哪儿蹲点才能找到它们。

But you just have, you know, I think we have a generation of hunters that that don't think about natural behavior and natural food sources and, you know, and where to spend your time trying to trying to get to those those animals.

我觉得其实有很多生物学证据表明，我们不该用诱饵，理由多得很。

You know, I think there's a lot of biological evidence out there that says we shouldn't be, you know, that there's really a lot of reasons not to bait.

我的意思是，慢性消耗病是个大问题。

I mean, chronic wasting disease is a big one.

我的意思是，我们这片区域，比如马里兰州，已经有慢性消耗病了。

I mean, we have chronic wasting disease in the region, you know, in in Maryland.

所以，我觉得还是有很多生物学上的理由。

So, no, I think there's plenty of biological reasons.

不过，就像我说的，有些地方用诱饵确实有用，我们一直像密歇根那样允许诱饵狩猎。

That being said, like I said, there are areas where baiting is useful, and we have always been a baiting state like Michigan.

是的。

Yeah.

这事儿不会消失的。

And it's not gonna go away.

你不这么认为吗？

You don't think so?

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

这不会。

It's not

我觉得五十年后会的。

I think in fifty years, it will.

也许五十年后会吧。

Well, maybe in fifty years, it might.

我们不会。

We won't

五十年后，我们不会再有猎人了。

have we won't we won't have any hunters in fifty in fifty years.

我们有更紧迫的问题。

We've got bigger problems.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，肯定会有的。

Oh, there's gonna be Yeah.

肯定会有人拼命干这件事。

There's gonna be there'll be people crank cranking away at it.

我希望如此。

I I hope.

是的。

Yeah.

我也希望。

I hope.

那又怎样？

So What

史蒂夫，你会怎么说？

are gonna say, Steve?

这会是

It'd be

很难执行，毕竟那是在私人土地上。

tough to enforce because it's, you know, in private land.

我们要派多少名狩猎监察员才能巡查完这里所有的私人土地呢？

And how many game wardens would you need to patrol all the private land that we have here?

确实如此。

And Yeah.

对于那些没法执行的规定，最后往往只会有一小部分人不遵守，但很多人之所以遵守，只是因为那是规定。

But on unenforceable stuff, you want you just wind up getting a lot of, you know, you you I mean, sure, you're gonna have you're gonna have some number of people who aren't gonna follow the rules, but a lot of people just follow the rules because of the rule.

没错。

Yeah.

说得对。

That's true.

我不觉得非得靠惩罚才能让人遵守。

I don't think it's always like a like because you got a club hanging over your head.

是的。

Yeah.