本集简介
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这是iHeart播客。
This is an iHeart podcast.
百分百真人制作。
Guaranteed Human.
First Light的户外工作服系列，专为开季前的辛勤付出和赛季结束后的持续使用而设计。
First Light's field wear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends.
产品为清晨的忙碌、全天的劳作和真实使用场景打造。
Products built for early mornings, full days, and real use.
在关键部位坚固耐用，在需要的地方灵活实用。
Hardwearing where they need to be, versatile where it matters.
绝不偷工减料。
No shortcuts.
只有为赢得赛季而奋斗的工作所设计的装备。
Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.
为性能而生，为持久而造。
Built to perform, built to last.
去 firstlight.com 看看 First Light 的新款户外装备。
Check out First Light's new field wear gear at firstlight.com.
天哪。
Wow.
多漂亮的动物啊。
What a beautiful animal.
真是难得。
Golly.
能有这么一会儿，静静地看着这动物。
To get just to get a few moments to just watch that animal.
世界上没几个人能有这样的机会。
Few people in the world will ever get to do that.
你一辈子都在这国家里徒步、骑骡子，干什么都行。
You can be out you can be out in this country your whole life, hiking, riding a mule, whatever.
这一生也许都碰不上一只山狮。
You might see a mountain lion in a lifetime.
你知道，根本就见不到它们。
You know, they're just you just don't see them.
要像这样近距离看到它们，只能靠猎犬追踪。
Only way you're gonna see them and look at them like this right here is with hunting with these dogs.
我们离车可远着呢。
And we are a long ways from the truck.
离车有好几英里，深山老林里头。
Miles and miles in backcountry from the truck.
每当我看到这样的动物，就会想到它生活的那片土地。
Man, when when I see an animal like that, I think about the country it came from.
这可是真正的荒野，这家伙一辈子都在这儿讨生活。
I mean, this is some true back country, and that sucker has made a living out here his whole life.
你刚才听到的是我新片子的片段，发布在MeatEater的YouTube频道上，讲的是我骑着骡子，和几位传奇人物——麦克莱恩、亨特·米金和泰·埃文斯——一起猎狮的经历。
What you just heard was a clip from my new film out on the MeatEater YouTube channel of my lion hunt on mules with some very legendary guys, McClain and Hunter Meakim and Ty Evans.
我们待会儿会好好聊聊他们。
We're gonna talk a ton about them.
但这是《MeatEater》十二集系列的第二集。
But this was episode two of MeatEater's twelve and twenty six series.
《MeatEater》一直都在不断发布视频。
So MeatEater's always putting out videos.
每周我们都会推出新的内容。
Every week, we put out videos.
但今年，我们打算推出十二部完整的纪录片，各位。
But this year, we're putting out 12 long form films, everyone.
纪录片。
Films.
不是剧集，不是短视频，也不是片段，是正儿八经的纪录片。
Not episodes, not videos, not clips, films.
是的。
Yeah.
扬尼斯。
Giannis.
是的
Yeah.
吉安尼斯
Giannis.
我和吉安尼斯一直在争论，我们做的到底是剧集吗？
Me and Giannis have this argument going on of are we making episodes?
吉安尼斯做的是剧集。
Giannis makes episodes.
我做的是电影。
I make films.
没错。
That's right.
我觉得吉安尼斯拍的是电影。
I think Giannis makes films.
吉安尼斯太厉害了。
Giannis is incredible.
这是第12米，第26个。
This is meters twelve and twenty six.
12/12代表一年十二个月，26指的是2026年，我们今年要制作十二部全长电影。
And the 12/12, meaning twelve months of the year, '26 being the year of 2026, we're producing 12 full length feature films.
我们刚发布的这部片子时长四十五分钟。
This film that we just released to mine is forty five minutes long.
贾尼斯的第一部电影，讲他设陷阱猎熊的故事，就是第一个12和26，时长整整一小时。
Giannis' first film about his baited bear hunt, the first twelve and twenty six, was a full hour long.
这些内容由我们的赞助商支持——都是我们平时在野外经常用的靠谱品牌：onX和Moultrie。
And these are presented by our sponsors, our big time friends, products we use in the woods all the time, onX and Moultrie.
这档配套的播客节目叫《12和26播客》。
And this is the companion podcast, the companion show called the twelve and twenty six podcast.
自从你们开始关注以来，所有这些内容其实一直都在这儿，朋友们。
That's where all this has been going, folks, ever since you started.
这就是《12和26播客》。
This is the twelve and twenty six podcast.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That's right.
这是《十二与二六》电影系列的幕后花絮节目。
The companion show to the twelve and twenty six film series where we go behind the scenes.
我一直特别喜欢长篇音频内容，比如播客。
You know, I've always been a big fan of long form audio, like podcasts.
因为我刚开始拍电影的时候，就算去一次大探险，拍个二十分钟的片子，也根本讲不完整个故事。
Because when I started making films, you can go on some big expedition and make a twenty minute film, and it really doesn't it honestly doesn't capture the full story.
对。
Right.
就好像你正坐那儿听我聊天一样。
As as if you were just sitting there listening to me talk.
当然。
Sure.
如果你只是听我说，你就看不到狮子，看不到群山，你虽然也在那个时刻里，但感受方式完全不一样。
Now if you're just listening to me talk, you're not seeing the lion, you're not seeing the mountains, you're not you're not in you're you're kinda in the moment in a different way.
没法调动你所有的感官。
Doesn't hit all your senses.
没错。
Right.
但我总觉得，电影有时候还是没法完整呈现一切。
But I I feel like a film sometimes doesn't capture the full thing.
所以我们想做的，就是把那些缺失的部分补上。
So what we're trying to do is just, like, fill in all the gaps.
你有电影。
So you got the film.
你可以看。
You can watch it.
你还能看到骡子。
You can see the mules.
你能看到那些狮子。
You can see the lions.
我们照顾了三头狮子。
We treat three lions.
但是
But
提前剧透一下。
Spoiler alert.
这是幕后花絮。
This is behind the scenes.
是的。
Yeah.
我来告诉你。
I'm gonna tell you.
我要把所有细节都告诉你。
I'm gonna I'm gonna spill it all, folks.
这期《十二与二十六》播客里，我要把所有事情都摊开来讲。
It's all gonna be on the table on this episode of the twelve and twenty six podcast.
今天我请来了我的好朋友兼制作人乔什·兰布里奇，人称‘ spillmaker ’。
I'm joined by my dear friend and producer, Josh Lanbridge, spillmaker.
如果你平时没怎么听《Bear Grease》，可能不知道这个外号是我2008年就给他起的。
And if some of you might be if you if you're not tuned in to Bear Grease all the time, you might not know that I gave Josh this nickname, I mean, like, in 2008.
那可真是很久以前的事了。
Long time ago.
差不多二十年前了。
Like, probably twenty years ago.
我开始叫他‘兰布里奇’，是因为他那把漂亮的胡子——这可是真事。
I started calling him Landbridge because he's got such a good mustache that this is a true story.
有一天，我们一起去教堂。
One day, we go to church together at church.
我看见乔什，突然被启发去了解白令陆桥，还特意买了第一本关于白令陆桥的书。
I saw Josh, and I was inspired to go learn about the Bering Land Bridge and went and ordered my first book on the Bering Land Bridge.
我到现在还留着呢。
I still got it.
被他的胡子启发了。
Inspired by
就是那副胡子。
the mustache.
被乔什的胡子启发了，因为它真像连着两大洲。
Inspired by Josh's mustache because it it, like, links continents.
所以乔什·兰德布里奇，这位电影人，天哪。
So Josh Landbridge, filmmaker Oh my goodness.
他正和我一起深陷《熊格雷斯》播客的制作中。
Who's deep in the weeds on the Bear Gryesh Podcast with me.
太棒了。
So Awesome.
克莱，这部电影真是一绝。
Well, Clay, this was a this was a fantastic film, man.
我特别想聊聊这个狩猎，听听你对这次猎狮以及猎狮这件事的整体看法。
I'm really excited to kinda get into it, hear your thoughts on this specific hunt, lion hunting in general.
我这边准备了一些问题，还有来自我们社交媒体平台——YouTube和Instagram——的粉丝们也提了不少好问题。
And we've got some great questions from me and some great questions from some of our social media outlets, YouTube, and Instagram.
所以我会把这些问题都抛给你，给你机会一一回应。
So we're gonna throw it all at you and give you an opportunity to respond.
那咱们就直接进入正题吧。
So kinda just getting into it.
我能先说几句开场白吗？
Can I can I do a preamble?
当然可以。
You can.
我刚才说的那几句就是开场白。
Was the preamble I just did.
对。
Yep.
我想先给大家把猎狮的大背景交代一下。
I just wanna I wanna, like, set the wider picture for dry ground lion hunting.
接下来你会听到一个词，它的意思是，在这个国家猎获的狮子中，有95%到99%都是靠猎犬追猎得到的。
So you're gonna hear that term used in in that what that means is is when you're when you're hunting lions, 99% of lions harvested in this country, 95 to 99, I would say, would be lions that were harvested over dogs.
这种情况主要发生在西部。
And it's primarily in the West.
东部根本没有猎狮季。
There are no lion seasons East
在
Of
密西西比河以东，甚至落基山脉以东的地区。
The Mississippi or even really East Of The Rocky Mountains.
对。
Right.
所以这一切都发生在西部。
And so it's all happening out west.
在山狮分布区的北部，那里会有积雪。
And in the northern part of the Mountain lion Range, there's snow.
当你在雪地里带着狗追踪时，人得出去找雪地上的脚印。
And when you are line hunting in the snow with dogs, a human goes out and looks for a track in the snow.
你可以开车在道路上搜寻。
So you can drive roads.
也可以骑马出行。
You could ride your equine animal.
怎么方便就怎么来。
You could do whatever.
不管你用什么方式穿越地形、覆盖大片区域，找脚印这一半的工作是最关键的。
However you're gonna get across the country and cover vast amounts of ground, half of half of the hunt is finding a track.
但在雪地里，脚印是看得清清楚楚的。
But when it's in the snow, you can see the track.
你还能分辨出这是哪一只山狮。
You can tell what kind of lion it is.
你知道，如果是公的还是母的，通常都能分辨出来。
You know, if it's a male, female, typically, you can.
但最重要的是，气味在雪地里保存得更好，追踪雪地里的美洲狮比在干地上容易多了。
And but most importantly, scent holds better in the snow and is much easier to trail a lion in snow than it is on dry ground.
有个人曾经这样跟我形容过。
It was described to me one time like this.
想象一下，气味分子就像一种具有生物活性的微粒。
Imagine a scent particle being essentially like a biologically active particle.
明白。
Mhmm.
如果你把这种微粒放进冰箱，它就能保存得更久，不容易分解。
And if you put that particle in the refrigerator, it would last longer and not degradate.
这让我想到一点。
Which this brings up a point.
我一直对这个词有点好奇，我觉得它根本不算个词。
I was curious about that word, which I don't think is a word.
Degradate？
Degradate?
是的。
Yeah.
哎呀，糟了。
Oh, dang.
对。
Yeah.
各位，英语专业的别介意他。
So folks, English majors, forgive him.
这是个杜撰的词。
It's a made up word.
Degradate 是个词。
Degradate's a word.
Degrade。
Degrade.
这只是一个发音问题。
It's just pronunciation.
番茄嘛，念法不同罢了。
Tomato tomahto.
所以，如果把气味分子取出来放进冰箱里，那会——
So the scent particle, if you were to take it and put it into the refrigerator Well,
这说得通。
that makes sense.
我以前从来没想过，但确实很有道理。
I never thought about that, but it totally makes sense.
所以在雪地里猎狮会更容易一些。
And and so lion hunting in the snow is easier.
我不是说这很容易，只是相对容易一点。
I'm not saying it's easy, but it's easier.
没错。
Right.
而且你只需要找一只嗅觉没那么灵敏的狗就行。
And you and you takes a dog that doesn't have to have as good a nose.
到了像犹他州、新墨西哥州、亚利桑那州这样的干旱西南地区。
You get into the arid Southwest, like in Utah, New Mexico, Arizona.
以前在加利福尼亚是可以放猎犬追捕的。
You used to could run hounds in California.
现在不行了。
You can't anymore.
他们现在得在干燥的地面上先让狮子启动追踪。
They're having to start these lions on dry ground.
对。
Right.
在猎犬圈子里，大家都会把难度提高。
And in the hound world and people turn it up.
如果你现在把设备音量调大一点，就能听清楚了。
If you're if you're what turn up the volume on your device right now so you can hear this.
在猎犬圈里，能在干燥地面上追踪狮子的狗，就是这个领域的迈克尔·乔丹、科比·布莱恩特和勒布朗·詹姆斯。
In the hound world, the dry ground lion dogs are the Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James of of of the hound world.
我说出来了。
There, I said it.
我真的说出来了。
I said it.
明白吧？
Okay?
在干地上追踪猎物，比追浣熊需要高得多的技巧。
It takes a lot higher skillset to tree a line on dry ground than it does to tree a coon.
我都能想象到评论区会怎么说了。
I can just see the comments that are gonna
堆得满满的。
stack up.
根本不是那么回事。
It's just no.
每一种猎物和猎犬都必须具备一套独特的技能，才能显得出色又不可替代。
Every animal and dog used in hunting has to have a specific set of skill sets that make it wonderful and unique.
但据我判断——不管这算不算数，以及猎犬圈里许多顶尖人士的看法——一只能在干地上追踪狮子的猎犬，必须拥有近乎超凡的嗅觉。
But from my estimation, for whatever that's worth and the estimation of many really great people in the hound world for a dry ground lion dog, he's got to have an almost otherworldly nose.
明白了。
Okay.
比如在猎浣熊时，你其实不希望狗的鼻子太灵敏，因为浣熊到处都是。
And for instance, in coon hunting, you don't necessarily want one with a super cold nose because there's there's coons everywhere.
你不想让它去追十二小时前的旧踪迹。
You don't want him to treat start a track that's twelve hours old.
对。
Right.
你希望它去找最新的、热乎的踪迹。
You want him to go find a hot one.
对。
Right.
这全靠他的嗅觉和动力。
That's all in his ability to smell and his desire.
你得找一只嗅觉极其灵敏的猎狮犬。
You gotta have a lion dog that has a extremely cold nose.
这些狗必须是顶尖的运动员。
These dogs have got to be superb athletes.
我是说，麦克莱恩和米查姆的狗跑得可真快。
I mean, I'm telling you, McLean and Meacham's dogs were running.
我们每天得让骡子走十二到二十英里。
I mean, we were putting 12 to 20 miles a day on the mules.
我们跟着狗跑，不是一步不落，但那些狗一天至少跑了一百多英里，可能都快一百五十英里了。
We were following the dogs, not step for step, But, I mean, those dogs had well over a 100, probably a 150 miles
你得先停一停，别绕这么多了。
on gonna you're gonna have to pump the brakes on this preamble a little bit.
别说了。
Come on.
我们现在要进入正题了。
Getting into the content that we're gonna talk about.
大家有很多问题。
People got lots of questions.
我连开场白都还没开始呢。
Well, I hadn't even started the preamble yet.
说到底，陆地追踪猎狮的人，虽然人数极少，但在小圈子里备受尊敬。
All that to say, dry ground line hunting and the men and women that are dry ground line hunters often are held in high esteem in in the in the in very small circles.
是的。
Yeah.
麦特姆夫妇是全国闻名、备受尊敬的顶尖陆地追踪猎狮高手。
And the MeatEm's are nationally known and respected as incredible dry ground lion hunters.
我跟你说，他们干起来简直轻而易举。
And I'm telling you, they made it look easy.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
五天内就出去，真让人惊讶，别拦着我，乔什。
To go out in five days It's amazing watching Don't try to stop me, Josh.
五天内出去，还要治疗三只？
To go out in five days and treat three?
这其实正好引出了我们第一个问题：你一开始说，三天内治疗两只狮子已经很罕见了。
Well, that actually kind of kind of leads me into into one of our first questions here is, you know, you say it's rare to to at first you say it's rare to to to treat two lions in three days.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
你刚准备投入的时候，出发前，你当时有什么预期吗？
What when you're getting into it, when when you before you went, what was your expectation?
你心里有预期吗？
Did you have an expectation?
比如，我能撑五天，但真的能处理三头狮子吗？
Like, could I go five days and we us not tree align?
或者你是怎么想的？
Or what
你觉得会发生什么事？
what did you think was gonna happen?
我对我们团队很有信心，而且我们来得正是时候。
I mean, I had a lot of confidence in the MeatEm's, and they they we were coming at a good time.
那时候来，时机真的很好。
It was it was a good time to come.
我们的条件非常理想。
We had optimal conditions.
我们那儿下了一些雪。
We had some snow.
天气特别冷。
It was really cold.
但你说，就算条件再好，连续五天出去，真有可能一条线都找不到吗？
But is it possible to go out there for five days and not tree a line even with some of the best?
完全有可能。
Absolutely.
我的意思是，我认识好几个人都经历过这种情况。
I mean, I know I know multiple people.
昨晚有个人给我发消息，说他参加过两次有向导的狮子狩猎，花了大价钱，整整一周，连一头狮子都没见到。
Last night, a guy texted me and said, I've been on two guided lion hunts, like, paid money to go on guided lion hunts, like, week long hunts and never saw a lion.
天哪。
Wow.
真的吗，太意外了。
And, like Wow.
应该是两次五天的狩猎行程。
Presumably two five day hunts.
我还认识一个人。
I know another guy.
我就不点名了。
I won't say his name.
我一个好朋友，参加过两次由非常靠谱的向导组织的狮子狩猎，但一次都没猎到过。
A dear friend of mine has been on two guided lion hunts with very reputable outfitters and has never killed a lion.
我觉得他们可能会放走母狮之类的。
I think they'd probably treat a female or something.
真没想到。
Wow.
所以，我们五天内猎到三头，简直再完美不过了。
And so, yeah, for us to treat three in five days was you couldn't have asked for anything better.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我们有一些 footage，拍的是你在犹他州打猎那片地区的地形。
We've got some kinda we've got some footage of of kinda just of the terrain of where you were hunting in Utah.
你以前在这片区域猎过吗？
Have you hunted in this region before?
从来没来过。
Never have.
这是我第一次来犹他州。
This is my first time to Utah.
那你来之前对这里的骑乘和路况有什么预期吗？
So did you have expectation of what the riding and the and would be like before you got there?
你知道的。
You know?
对。
Yeah.
比我原本想的要长多了。
It was it was probably longer than I thought it was gonna be.
我们用onX追踪，骑了超过八十英里。
Like, we rode over 80 miles per our onX that we were tracking.
这路程可真不短。
That's a lot of miles.
确实挺远的。
That's a lot
骑了那么远。
of miles.
你一直骑的是同一头骡子，对吧？
You rode the same mule, didn't you?
对，我骑的一直是同一头骡子。
I rode the same mule.
这简直难以置信。
That's unbelievable.
这对我来说简直难以置信。
That's unbelievable to me.
我们有个摄像师，劳伦·莫尔特里，他骑的那头骡子。
One of the mules so our cameraman one of our cameraman was on a mule, Lauren Lauren Moultrie.
到了第五天，那头骡子一直跟在我后面走。
And on the fifth day, and he, I mean, this mule's riding right behind me.
我的意思是，它已经走了八十英里了。
I mean, it's gone 80 miles.
我问了麦克莱恩，这头骡子多大年纪了？
I asked McLean, how old is that mule?
他说，二十五岁了。
And he said, 25 years old.
天哪。
Wow.
它驮着劳伦·莫尔特里走了八十英里，可不是那种普通的山路里程。
Carried Lauren Moultrie eighty eighty miles and, you know, not like 80 trail miles.
没错。
Right.
我跟你说，这80英里全是上上下下、海拔变化，还有从山上滑下来。
I'm telling you 80 miles of up and down and elevation gain and skidding down mountains.
真是够呛。
I mean, rough.
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
但说实话，在东部落叶林里长途骑乘，虽然我不愿说更容易，但你得不断跟灌木丛较劲，
But it actually, to me, in some ways is I don't wanna say easier, but when you ride long distance in the eastern deciduous forest, you're constantly fighting brush and
没错。
Right.
身上还老被刮伤。
Getting scratched up.
我正想问你，你的鼻子是怎么回事？
I wondered it was was what happened to your nose?
我被一棵雪松树撞了一下。
I got banged by a cedar tree.
明白了。
Okay.
但大多数时候，我们其实都在空旷的地方骑行。
But but most of the time, we're just, like, out in the wide open.
没错。
Okay.
大部分时间都是这样。
Most of the time.
那风景真是美得不得了。
Well, well, the scenery was, I mean, spectacular.
是的。
Yeah.
那真是太好了。
So well, that's that's great.
我们接下来再看一段视频。
We're gonna we're gonna watch another clip here.
经过肉食者家族长达七十五年的选择性繁育，要是这些狗真卖的话，你得把卡车都卖了才能买得起一只。
Of three quarters of a century of selective breeding by the MeatEm's, and you'd have to sell your truck to buy one if they were ever for sale.
猎犬需要一套独特的技能：强烈的狩猎本能、超乎寻常的体力，还有一副极其灵敏的鼻子，加上追捕猎物的强烈欲望。
Line dogs require a unique skill set of hunt drive, physical stamina, which borders on something supernatural, and an incredible nose topped with desire to tree game.
这个我之前讲过了，不过再放一遍吧。
I already covered this, just to run it.
所以你后来就慢慢入迷了。
So you kinda got into it.
你还有什么想补充的吗？别人看到这些狗，可能会觉得它们是混血犬，但其实经过一代代的选育，这些基因已经被深深刻进它们的身体里，就是为了完成它们该做的事。
Was there anything you wanted to add to just the you know, people would look at these dogs and just think, you know, they're some of them are mixed breed, but they've just they've they've bred these genetics into them to do what they're supposed to do.
你刚才提到了嗅觉灵敏。
So you talked about cold nose.
你还说了它们追踪猎物的能力、那种驱动力和体能。
You you talked about them being able just to trail and to and to have the drive and the athleticism.
还有什么别的地方能区分狮犬和干地狮犬，比如和浣熊犬或者鹿犬的区别？
Anything else that would set apart a lion dog, a dry ground lion dog versus like a coon dog or a deer dog?
是的。
Yeah.
你看，东部一些体型较大的猎犬，确实也有很大的干地狮犬，但通常像麦克莱恩的狗，体重大概在45到65磅之间。
Well, when you look at, like, some of the the bigger hounds in the East, and there's some big dry ground line dogs, but typically, like, McLean's dogs were probably 50 probably 45 to 65 pounds.
明白了。
Okay.
不过，有些体型更大的浣熊犬品种，比这还要大得多。
And I mean, some of these bigger coon dog breeds are are are are bigger than that.
一般来说，体型更大的狗更容易疲劳，脚掌撑不住，耐力也差一些。
And a bigger dog typically breaks down a little faster, just like doesn't have, like, the stamina of their feet break down.
所以你每天要跑那么远的路，必须得选脚掌特别结实的狗，别在深山老林里走着走着就瘸了，对吧？
And so when you're going that many miles day after day, you gotta have a dog with really good feet and that that won't go lame on you, you know, way back out there.
当然。
Sure.
这都是经过一代又一代精心选育出来的，把优秀的个体配对繁殖。
And and and that comes after just selective breeding, you know, litter after litter and and breeding the good ones to the good ones.
对。
Yeah.
你明白吧。
You know?
最后就养出了这种特别精准的狗。
And and eventually, get this this dog that has kinda dialed itself in a way.
你懂的。
You know?
没错。
Mhmm.
这些狗整天都在打猎。
I mean, when these these guys hunt so much.
确实如此。
They really do.
我的意思是，这些狗猎得这么多，它们真正展现出了自身的潜力。
I mean, they they hunt so much, and they just really their dogs express the potential that they have.
而且不过。
And but
明白了。
Okay.
我觉得这些狗真的特别让人着迷。
I think the dogs are endlessly fascinating.
还有一个问题。
Another question.
你会怎么回应那些说用猎犬打猎太简单、根本算不上打猎的批评者？
How would you respond to critics of hunting with hounds that would say it's easy or there's no hunting taking place?
没错。
Right.
说实话，要是有人这么说，那他们肯定没真正养过猎犬，也没亲自参与过这样的狩猎，就算见过也只是一带而过。
Man, I would say honestly, anybody that would say that has never maybe they've gone on a hound hunt, but they've never owned hounds or done it themselves.
我觉得，用猎犬狩猎才是最原始的狩猎方式。
And I would I would say that hunting with hounds is actually the most primitive method of hunting.
如果你拿着装了瞄准镜的步枪，坐在鹿台等猎物，就说用猎犬的人不算在狩猎，那你也太奇怪了吧。
Like, if you take out a a scope with a rifle on it and go sit in a deer stand and then you say that someone is not hunting when they're hunting with hounds.
我的意思是，你懂的，这说不通。
I mean, you kinda live you know?
这里面确实存在一种矛盾。
There's a dichotomy there.
这种说法对你来说可能根本说不通。
There's some this isn't gonna work for you.
但我非常支持用猎犬狩猎，这是一种从人类文明之初就延续下来的传统做法。
But I I'm a big proponent of hound hunting, and it's a traditional use practice that goes back to the very beginning of the human story.
现在这种形式，其实是对那种传统的改良。
And so this a modified version of that.
我的意思是，我们当然不是为了填饱肚子去打猎，但这活儿真不是一般的难。
I mean, it's like, obviously, we're not subsistence hunting, but it's super hard, man.
是的
Yeah.
你想想，带上一队猎犬，自己一个人跑到犹他州去追猎物，想把它们逼上树。
I mean, you load up a pack of hounds and try to go out to Utah by yourself and tree a line.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
这事儿特别难。
It's very difficult.
从保护的角度来看，它的妙处在于你能有选择地猎取动物，而这正是我们节目一直强调的主题。
And then the beauty of it from a conservation perspective is you get to be selective on the animals that you harvest, which was pretty much the theme of our of our of our show.
当然。
For sure.
明白了。
Okay.
我们再放一段视频。
Let's we got another clip here.
非洲追踪者追踪平原猎物的能力。
To the African tracker's ability to follow plains game.
几十年如一日地专注于那些细微的细节，跟着猎犬一步不落地追踪，才造就了这种独特性。
Hyperfocus on obscure details for decades produces uniqueness while following the dogs step for step.
西方的狮子猎人通常用骡子，是有原因的。
And there's a reason these western lion hunters typically use mules.
骡子在崎岖地形里更稳当、更安全，耐力也比马强得多。
They're more sure footed, safer, and last longer in rough country than horses tip
这段视频是几个片段剪辑在一起的。
There's a it's a few clips put together.
气温徘徊在个位数，我们即将进入一个全新的峡谷。
Temperatures are hovering in the single digits, and we're going into a completely new canyon.
哦，本来不该听到音频的，我们只看画面就行。
Oh, supposed not supposed to hear the audio We'll on this just watch it.
猎犬们发出声音
The dogs make
就是那个地方，当泰的骡子踩上那块石头打滑的时候，那场面可真够悬的。
So that that that spot there, Ty when Ty's mule slips on the rock, that was that could have been pretty hairy right there.
你知道吗，泰·埃文斯的心跳根本不会漏掉一拍。
You know, Ty Evans' heartbeat would not have skipped a beat.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
他根本没受影响。
He didn't.
他压根不会慌，因为他知道，全靠这匹骡子稳得住。
He wouldn't have even, and he knew that everything was okay because of that mule.
没错。
Right.
说白了，这时候你就需要一头特别稳当的牲口，而这正是骡子最拿手的地方。
I mean, that's when you wanna have an animal that's very sure footed and that's when, where the mules thrive.
我的意思是，那头骡子确实滑倒了，但没滚下山，自己爬起来了。
I mean, obviously that mule slipped and fell, but it recovered, didn't tumbled down the mountain.
当然。
Sure.
你觉得这是你骑过最险峻的路段之一吗？
Would you say this is probably some of the roughest riding you've done?
说实话，第一天有一段路特别陡，摄像机都没拍出那种感觉。
You know, I have done there was one section on day one that was super steep, and the camera just didn't pick it up.
不过有几处地方，你多少能看出来有多陡——说实话，我看了都心慌，毕竟我骑过骡子。
There were a couple of spots though where you you could get a little bit of an idea of how steep it well, I mean, it scared me, you know, having been on a mule a little bit.
光是看着就把我吓着了。
It scared me looking at it.
头两个小时我们骑的时候，那些狗直接冲上山，然后全跑没影了，那场面真是……太难了。
Well, the first two hours we rode, the dogs just went over this mountain and bailed off and it was I mean, I it's hard.
我都不知道该怎么形容那坡有多陡。
I don't even know how to describe how steep it was.
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我觉得，95%骑马或骡子的人，都会选择牵着走。
I would say 95% of people riding an equine animal would have walked the meal down.
没错。
Right.
其实我们本来也可以这么做的。
And and we knew we could have.
没错。
Right.
但我当时和泰·埃文斯、麦克林·米奇姆在一起。
But I was there with Ty Evans and McLean Meacham.
我就说，咱们干脆骑过去吧。
And I was like, hey, let's just ride.
那个镜头里，我不确定是麦克林还是泰，他们正往下走，你提到了那座桥，那段路真够陡的。
That scene where, I don't know if it was McLean or if it was Ty, where they're coming down and you mentioned the bridge and that was steep.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，那段路真的特别陡。
I mean, that was really steep.
你提到过桥具，就是套在骡子后臀上的那条带子。
And you mentioned the bridge and that that you use the bridge and on mules, and that's the strap that goes around the hindquarters of of the mule.
你会在马身上用桥具吗？
Would you ever use a bridge and on a on a horse?
我一般不用。
I typically don't.
这正好说明了，电影里根本没时间把整个故事讲清楚。
The I wasn't able this is a prime example, people, of where films doesn't give you the time to tell the whole story.
你只在骡子身上看到桥具，是因为骡子的前肩比较窄，鞍子容易往前滑，因为它们的鬃甲不够发达——鬃甲就是马或骡子脖子前段、肩胛骨上方那个隆起的部位。
So the reason that you only see breeching on mules is because a mule's front shoulders are narrow, And so the saddle has a tendency to slide forward because the mule doesn't have very strong withers, which withers is an anatomical term for basically the front shoulders and like the hump on the neck of a horse or a mule.
马的前肩又宽又结实。
So a horse has big, strong, broad front shoulders.
马通常比骡子肌肉更发达。
A horse is more typically has more muscle than a mule.
而且它们前半身肌肉很发达。
And they have a lot of it up front.
后臀宽大，前肩也很宽阔。
They have big hind quarters, sinks in, and big front shoulders.
骡子后臀宽大，但前肩比较窄。
A mule has big, nice hind quarters and narrower front shoulders.
马鞍容易往前滑。
The saddle slides forward.
所以需要加个鞍桥来防止马鞍前滑。
You need a bridge in to keep your saddle from sliding forward.
没错。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
这些骡子穿鞋了吗？
Are these mules shooed?
它们会吗？
Do they
会的。
Yes.
这些骡子穿了蹄铁，还装了防滑钉。
These mules were shod and had ice.
我之前没接触过这个，因为我们这儿没有，但他们用了类似防滑钉的东西。
Was unfamiliar with it because we don't have that here, but they had like ice cleats.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yes.
他们当初告诉我，我打算带伊齐来的时候——伊齐是我那匹九岁的骡子，就是Bear Gryst播客标志上那只。
They told me when I was originally gonna bring Izzy so Izzy is is my nine nine year old mule that that you would see on the logo of the Bear Gryst podcast.
那就是我训练并一直养着的那匹骡子。
So that's the mule that I trained and still have.
我本来打算和我的朋友、来自阿肯色州的贾斯汀·霍斯一起开车过去，带我们的骡子去。
When I told originally, we were gonna go out there and take our mules, me and Justin House, my friend Justin House from Arkansas, we're gonna drive out there.
那时候确实爆发了一种马类疾病。
And there was actually a equine disease Mhmm.
当时 rodeo 圈子里正流行，马匹跨州运输都面临风险。
That was going around the rodeo world at that time, and interstate travel of equine animals was in jeopardy.
我们本来是有可能到得了那儿的。
Like, it's possible we could have got out there.
要是疫情再严重一点，确实有可能。
And if it had escalated Right.
我们可能就得把骡子留在那儿了，之类的。
We might've, like, had to left our mules there or something.
所以我们决定改坐飞机，改骑他的骡子。
So we decided to fly and to ride his mules.
但当我们准备带上我的骡子时，
But when we were gonna take mine,
这最终是个明智的决定。
he was Which ended up being a good decision.
我觉得是的。
I think it was.
对。
Yeah.
我们到那儿之后，或者他说的，等你和伊齐到了，我们就给她穿上这种雪地鞋。
When we got there or where he said, when when you and Izzy get here, we'll put these basically snow shoes on her.
好的。
Okay.
情况真的有那么严重。
Like, were that serious.
好的。
Okay.
他们说，你们必须得用这个。
They were like, you need these.
哇哦。
Wow.
而且说实话，看到那些地方，我特别庆幸自己穿了防滑鞋。
And man, when in some of that stuff, I was very glad to have a a grippy
明白。
Okay.
那种防滑鞋确实派上用场了。
A grippy shoe on those Right.
那些穆勒鞋。
Those mules.
没错。
Right.
我们在YouTube上收到一条布鲁克·安德森的留言，编号1423。
We had a a comment on on YouTube by Brooke Anderson 1423.
她说这是她看过的狩猎节目里最独特的镜头拍摄。
Said this is the most unique camera work I've ever seen on a hunting show.
真的让人感觉好像自己也骑在马上跟着他们一起行动。
Really makes you feel like you're riding along with them.
我真希望能看到更多这种骑马狩猎的拍摄方式。
I'd love to see more hunts on horseback filmed like this.
我想特别感谢一下摄像团队。
And I just wanna give a quick shout out to, the camera guys.
没错。
Yeah.
德鲁·斯蒂克林和劳伦·莫尔特里。
Drew Stecklein and Lauren Moultrie.
对。
Yeah.
他们不只是拍了视频，还一边骑马一边拍摄，真的不容易。
They they not only filmed, but they were, you know, they weren't just riding, but they were also filming.
所以
So
他们一整天都跟在那儿。
They were there the whole time.
你知道吗？
You know what?
他们很快就适应了那些车。
They Took to those cars.
很多骑马的镜头都是用那些Osmo相机拍的。
A lot of those a lot of that riding stuff was done with those Osmo cameras.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这种小型云台相机。
These little gimbal Yeah.
你让观众看到了幕后的样子。
You're letting people see behind the curtain.
小型的云台相机。
Little little gimbal cameras.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
挺厉害的。
Pretty slick.
挺厉害的。
Pretty slick.
得给那些人点个赞。
Well, shout out to those guys.
我不点名了，但这段幕后内容是……
Not to I won't say which one, but behind this is behind the scenes.
对吧？
Right?
幕后花絮。
Behind the scenes.
这简直就像没插电一样。
This is, like, unplugged.
对。
Yep.
是吧？
Right?
对。
Yep.
这就像后台通行证一样。
This is like a backstage pass.
我们的其中一个摄像头丢了。
One of our cameras got lost.
Osmo摄像头掉在第一棵狮子树下面了。
Osmo cameras got lost underneath that lion tree, the first lion tree.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的
Yeah.
所以如果你
So if you
认出那棵树
recognize that tree
如果你在犹他州的野外发现它，麻烦告诉我们。
If you find it out there in the Utah backcountry, let let us know.
狩猎需要充分的准备、持久的耐心，以及靠得住的装备。
Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you.
所以我穿第一光。
That is why I wear first light.
这跟炒作没关系。
This isn't about hype.
这是关于毫无妥协的装备。
It's about no compromise gear.
专为性能打造，经久耐用。
Built to perform, built to last.
无论是他们领先的美利奴羊毛让我在严寒和酷暑中依然舒适，还是坚固的外层衣物能轻松应对各种天气，First Light 都是为了让你走得更远、待得更久。
Whether it's their industry leading merino wool keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements, First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer.
由猎人设计，为猎人服务，始终坚定支持自然保护和土地通行权。
Designed by hunters, for hunters with a deep commitment to conservation and land access.
绝不偷工减料。
No shortcuts.
绝不找借口。
No excuses.
只有靠得住的装备。
Just gear you can count on.
访问 firstlight.com。
Head to firstlight.com.
就是 firstlite.com。
That's firstlite.com.
我们这儿还有另一个片段。
We got another clip here.
从卡车上下来后，我们往下走了段陡坡，要不是非得跟着冲下悬崖的狗，我们根本不会选这条路。
From the truck, we went down some steep stuff that might have deterred us if we didn't have to follow the dogs that bailed off the edge.
狗常常逼着你去一些你本来不会去的地方。
Dogs often force your hand to go places you wouldn't choose.
系在骡子后腿后面的带子。
The strap around the back of the mule's hind.
哦，我想就这些了。
Oh, I guess that's it.
所以，你能帮我们理一下吗？你刚才说了好猎犬在干燥地面上的表现特点。
So, kinda help us understand you kinda you kinda described the the qualities of a good dry ground lion dog.
但你带着狗追猎的时候，到底想达到什么目的？
But when you're running dogs, what are you trying to do?
你是想跟它们保持一定的距离吗？
Are you trying to maintain a certain distance from them?
这个过程具体是怎样的？
What what's what's that process?
你提到‘狗赛’这个词。
And and you use the term a dog race.
那到底是什么意思？
What what does
意思是？
that mean?
这些狗是自由搜寻型猎犬，也就是说，它们并不总是清楚猎物的踪迹在哪。
So these guys are free casting hounds, which means they don't always know where the track is.
让我先说清楚一点。
If if you well, let me back up.
所谓自由搜寻型猎犬，就是把狗放出去，任它们自己去找。
Free casting hounds just means you just turn the dogs out.
它们就是靠闻气味来追踪。
And have they're just looking for a scent.
它们没有拴着绳子。
They're not on a leash.
它们就是放出去打猎的。
They're just out hunting.
对。
Right.
所以我们放狗自由搜寻，而且对这些狗有很强的掌控力。
And so we free cast dogs, and they have a ton of control over these dogs.
我在影片里提到过，他们打猎的方式有点像猎鸟犬。
And I mentioned in the film, you can you know, they kinda hunt them like bird dogs.
对。
Right.
他们希望狗保持在一定范围内，但一旦狗开始追踪气味，他们就得赶紧跑到狗叫的地方，看看能不能直接看到踪迹。
They want them to stay fairly close, but then because when they the dogs start running a track, they wanna be able to go over to where the dog is barking and see if they can physically see a track.
明白了。
Okay.
所以他们不希望狗自己跑出三英里远，然后开始追踪，却让他们没法马上赶过去查看。
So they don't want a dog to go three miles in there without them and start a track that they can't immediately go and check out.
对。
Right.
因为这些狗会追山猫和山狮，而狗根本分不清，比如说，一只带着小猫的母猫和一只大公猫。
Because these dogs will run bobcats and mountain lions, and they don't a dog is not gonna distinguish between, let's say, female with kittens and a big tom.
我的意思是，它们对这两种都会一样地追。
I mean, they'll run either one just the same.
所以如果追的是只带着小猫的母猫，他们就会立刻把狗叫回来。
And so if it was a female with kittens, they would immediately pull the dogs off.
这主要是靠训练，比如口头指令，他们还可以用电子项圈轻震狗狗，不是电击，就是用声音提醒它，让它注意，这样就能从很远的地方把狗叫回来。
And they do that through just training, I mean, vocal commands, but they can also tone the dog, which is not shocking it, but just beeping it and getting the attention of the dog, and they can call them back from long distance.
我想提一下刚才那段视频里说的，当你跟着猎犬追踪的时候，会去到一些你平时根本不会去的地方。
I I wanna say something about that little clip talked about how when you're following hounds, you go places that you would have never gone otherwise.
这正是猎犬狩猎有趣的地方——如果你只是悠闲地开车穿过那些峡谷，那肯定选最省力的路，或者走经过风景好看的地方的路线。
And that is is a cool part of hound hunting because if you were just going on a pleasure ride through all those canyons that we went through, I mean, you would pretty much take the easiest route or or maybe a route that went by some aesthetic point or something.
天啊，跟着狗跑的时候，你只能跟着它们走。
Man, when you're following the dogs, you're you just have to go where they go.
对。
Right.
你会发现自己到了各种根本没人去的地方，完全偏离了常规路线。
And so you find yourself in all kind of displaces that just are off literally off the beaten path.
我一直喜欢猎犬狩猎的这一点——你等于是在环游世界。
And and that's what I've always liked about hound hunting is, you know, you just get a tour of the world.
这也让我特别佩服的一点。
And that kinda goes as well to what I was so impressed with.
我们那时候离车可远了，乔什。
We would be so far from the truck, Josh.
是的。
Yeah.
麦克莱恩会说，嘿，当我们把狗放在这条小峡谷里时，一抬头就能看到一片高耸的悬崖。
And McLean would be like, man, when we drop off in this little canyon, we're gonna pull up and there'll be a big bluff.
那道悬崖后面是一片松树林。
And behind that bluff is a set of pine trees.
公猫们特别喜欢到那儿撒尿标记，抓树皮，我们就往那儿去。
And that's where those cats like to mark, the male cats like to scratch and we're going to go there.
我们那时候离车都快七英里远了。
And I mean, we've been, we're like seven miles from the truck.
对。
Right.
他总是能准确地记得
And and he would just have this
他清楚得不得了。
And he knew exactly.
他脑子里有完整的地形记忆，真厉害。
Topographic memory Wow.
他对每一片土地的细节都了如指掌，要不是一辈子都在这儿转，根本不可能记得这么清楚。
Of just every detail of the land that, I mean, you just wouldn't you just wouldn't be able to have that detailed of a map in your head without a lifetime.
麦克莱恩五十多岁了。
And McLean's in his fifties.
而且骑着骡子或马，能轻松走很远的路，他们还在这片区域猎驼鹿和骡鹿。
And but also being on the back of a mule or horse, like you just, you can just cover so much ground, but they also elk hunt and mule deer hunt in these regions.
我觉得我们该早点去一趟那个地方，因为电影里重点讲的就是狮子保护。
And that's, I think that's an interesting place we ought to go probably sooner rather than later is the the the the what the film dealt with so much, which which was lion conservation.
我们接下来就会谈到这个，而且已经收到很多相关评论了。
We we've got that coming, and we've got a lot of comments about that.
好的。
Okay.
不过我们差不多快到了。
So but we're we're almost there.
他们确实会猎骡鹿、猎驼鹿，这些都干。
Well, they they they mule deer hunt, elk hunt, this.
我的意思是，他们对这片地的每一处细节都了如指掌。
I mean, they just know it every possible way in and out.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
B提到，以前没有GPS狗项圈的时候要难多了。
B spoke to said this was much harder before GPS dog collars.
没错。
Correct.
对。
Yep.
明白。
Okay.
我们快说到狮子了。
We're kind of we're getting to the lion here.
咱们这会儿可真说到狮子了。
Well, we got a lion, man.
它们一开始在那个遥远的峡谷那边，我们现在能清楚地看到它在树上，亮闪闪的。
They started it way the heck over in that other canyon, and I we can see it right up in the tree just glowing up there.
尽量从他头顶上方靠近，托德。
Try to get him above head, Todd.
在它的头部，然后距离尾巴根部大约四英寸的地方，如果是公猫，会有一只黑狗。
At his head, and then about four inches under the base of his tail will be a black dog if it's a tom.
所以我们先上来，然后
So we'll get up here and get
看看它到底怎么样。
a look at him and see what he will.
咱们看看它叫得有多响。
Let's look at him scream.
所以
So
你已经找到第一只狮子了。
you got that first lion.
那是第几天了？
How many days in was that?
那是第二天。
That was the second day.
明白了。
Okay.
站在一只成年山狮这么近的地方，是什么感觉？
What's it like to be standing that close to a full grown mountain lion?
我当时就想到，这种机会真的太罕见了。
Well, I noted it of just how rare it really is.
如果你是猎狮人，那并不是因为你常能看见它们，
Like, I mean, if you're a lion hunter, it's not because you see them
而是因为，
because
你有猎犬帮忙；但在没有猎犬的自然环境下，能离狮子这么近还不让它跑掉，几乎是不可能的。
you have the dogs, but really in a natural situation without dogs, in a you would it'd be very rare to be that close to a lion without it disappearing.
狮子本来就特别难被发现。
I mean, lions are notorious for being unseen.
而且根据很多GPS追踪研究，人们发现这些狮子允许人类靠得有多近，但它们从来不会暴露自己。
And then in a lot of the GPS college studies they've done, they they see how close these lions let humans get to them, and the lions never, you know, reveal their presence.
没错。
Right.
你知道的。
You know?
所以住在西部狮群出没地区、经常去野外的人，很可能曾经离狮子二三十米甚至更近，却完全没察觉。
Like so a lot of people out west that live in lion country that are doing a lot of back country stuff have probably been within 20 to 50 yards of many lions that they never knew about.
没错。
Right.
这挺有意思的。
Which is interesting.
对吧。
Right.
但当时我一开始就知道，我们不会去猎杀一只小狮子。
But now this line, when I first I knew we weren't gonna gonna shoot a small lion.
明白吧？
Okay?
对。
Right.
而且我们之前也没细谈过到底什么样的才算合适。
And we really hadn't talked about exactly what was acceptable.
你知道的吧？
You know?
我的意思是，我根本不知道会是哪种狮子。
I mean, I didn't know what kind of lion.
我们只知道需要一只雄性，
We we just knew we needed a male for
当然。
sure.
对。
Right.
而且是个成年狮子，你知道的，完全长大的那种。
And an adult, you know, a full grown one.
天哪，当我走到那棵树旁边时，我心里想，哇，这山狮可真不小。
And man, when I walked up to the tree, I was like, dang, that's a pretty good mountain lion.
我是说，它的头还挺大的。
I mean, it had a pretty big head.
但我一眼就能看出来，我是说，他们告诉我，说那是一只两岁左右的狮子。
But I could just immediately tell well, I mean, they told me, they're like, yeah, that's like a two year old lion.
你懂的？
You know?
我当时想
I Did you think
它比那岁数大吗？
it was older than that?
我以为它会更年长一些，但我真说不上来。
I would have thought it was older than that, but I I I have no Right.
没什么依据。
Basis.
因为你以前猎过狮子。
Because you've you've lion hunted before.
你曾经猎过一头狮子。
You you took a lion.
是的。
Yeah.
那头狮子体重有112磅。
This is this lion weighed a 112 pounds.
明白了。
Okay.
那是头公狮子。
It was a male.
在哪儿？
Was where?
在爱达荷州的狭长地带。
In in the Panhandle Of Idaho.
好的。
Okay.
莱昂·布朗。
Leon Brown.
有个叫莱昂·布朗的家伙，是个猎人。
Guy named Leon Brown, plot man.
我是说，从技术上讲，这已经算成年了。
And that I mean, that's technically an adult.
我是说，它不像还在妈妈身边那样，不过……
I mean, like, it wasn't, like, still with its mother, but
对。
Right.
这很可能是一条两年的鱼。
This was probably a two year old line.
明白了。
Okay.
一百一十二磅。
Hundred hundred and twelve pounds.
明白了。
Okay.
也就是说，你当然希望钓到那种大个的。
Which is, you know, you're you're you're hoping to take out the the big ones.
北美最大的那些鱼，简直就是传说中的存在，体重能轻松超过两百磅。
And and the biggest lines in North America, and these would be like phantoms, but would, you know, push 200 pounds.
确实有人钓到过两百磅的鱼。
I mean, there there have been 200 pound lines taken.
但在犹他州，一条大公鱼，我觉得大概在一百五十磅左右，上下浮动吧。
But a a big Tom in Utah, I would say, would be in the 150 pound range plus or minus.
我的意思是，那本来会是只
I mean, like, that would have been a
这正是他们在找的目标。
And that's what they're that's what they're looking for.
这正是他们在找的目标。
That's what they're looking for.
不过话说回来，像我说的，亨特从来没猎到过一只。
But then again, these guys like I said, Hunter has never killed one.
我的意思是，他们
I mean, they're
他有说为什么吗？
just Did he say why?
他有说为什么吗？
Did he say why?
我的意思是，肯定没说。
I mean, sure not.
他见过成年的猫。
He's seen a mature cat.
我的意思是
I mean
首先，他们是向导。
Well, number one, are outfitters.
没错。
Right.
他们确实会带人去，目的是想套住一条线。
Like, so they do take people that they're trying to get a line.
所以大概那些大个的，他们之前都追过，而且当时有客户在场，所以肯定开过枪。
So presumably a lot of the big ones they've they've they've treed, they had a client with them, you know, so they would've shot the line.
但我明白。
But I get it.
但那根本不是他们这么做的目的。
Like, that's just not what they're in it for.
对。
Right.
对他们来说，只是放一条线根本没那么重要。
Like just to shoot a line just doesn't mean that much to them.
他们更愿意让它走掉，再试一次，或者让给别人。
They'd rather let it go and treat again or someone else
对。
Right.
拿去吧。
Take it.
对。
Right.
所以我当时觉得这挺有意思的。
And so I I thought I thought that was interesting.
当我放掉那条线的时候，我心里还挺舒服的。
And that that made me feel good when I passed that line.
对。
Right.
因为那确实很难。
Because it was hard.
要是能钓到那条鱼，我早就高兴坏了。
I would have been so happy with that line.
我觉得那条鱼可能更大一些。
I I think it was probably bigger.
你知道吗，麦克莱恩说那条鱼大概在一百一十到一百二十磅之间，可我觉得它看起来比这大得多。
You know, McLean said it was between a hundred and ten and a hundred and twenty pounds, and I feel like it looked quite a bit bigger than
真的吗？
Oh, really?
比这条大得多。
Than this one.
明白了。
Okay.
我确实有。
I do.
这次狩猎是在 Bear Grease 的 YouTube 频道上发布的。
This this hunt is on the Bear Grease YouTube channel.
好的。
Okay.
这是我大概在2016年左右的一次猎狮活动，算起来快十年了。
My lion hunt from, like, 2016 or something, probably ten years ago.
我去了爱达荷州的狭长地带。
I went up to the Panhandle Of Idaho.
我和莱昂·布朗用传统弓射杀了那头狮子。
I killed that one with a traditional bow with Leon Brown.
我们再看一条来自YouTube的评论吧。
So we have another another comment from YouTube, I believe.
S three v three n d three t t。
S three v three n d three t t.
好多三啊，明白了。
Lots of threes Okay.
在这个用户名里。
In that username.
放弃猎物对猎犬有什么影响？
How does passing on a kill affect the dogs?
当你没有捕获猎物时，该怎么奖励它们，又怎么让它们从成功的追踪中冷静下来？
How do you reward them and also disengage them from a successful hunt when you don't understand the harvest of an animal?
当你没捕到猎物的时候。
When you don't harvest an animal.
对。
Right.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我觉得这是个好问题，因为看起来那些狗
I think it's that's a good question because it would seem like those dogs
我喜欢他用‘成功狩猎’这个词的方式。
I like how he says successful hunt too.
我的意思是，狗们已经尽职了。
I mean, the dogs did their job.
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
我觉得，对这些狗来说，奖励就是让它们看看猎物。
Well, I think the reward for those dogs is just to look at it
是的。
Yeah.
然后看到猎物挂在树上。
And see it up in the tree.
你有没有办法把它们拉开，让它们从那条线上脱离，继续往下走？
Were you were you able to get them pulled off and and get them disengaged from that line to move on?
是啊。
Oh yeah.
它们就是一叫，狗就过去了。
They just call them.
有时候会把一些年轻点的狗引开。
I mean, would lead some of the younger dogs away.
那些年纪大的狗呢，就直接说，走吧，去找下一个。
Some of the older dogs, they'd just be like, let's go on to the next one.
好的。
Okay.
我现在希望我们很快就能进入线路管理的部分。
And now I hope that we're soon getting to line management.
我们还有一个片段。
We've got one more clip.
还有一个片段，后面跟着个小问题，之后就进入线路管理了。
We've got one more clip with a short question, and then we're getting into line management.
因为我掌握一些内部消息。
Because I have some insider information.
我特别喜欢听内部消息。
I love insider information.
明白了。
Okay.
下一个片段。
Next clip.
我们从卡车那边走了六七英里，结果那猫被逼上树了。
We have we've ridden six or seven miles from the truck, and man they've got that cat treed.
你能在下面的灌木丛里看到他。
You can see him through Bonnose down there.
我猜他可能是想引诱哪块石头附近的动物。
Thought he might be baiting one of these rocks.
我们派了一个人过去找他。
We got one of the guys going to him.
我们得想想怎么下去那儿。
We're gonna try to figure out how to get down there.
从脚印看像是只公猫，但这地方真是绝了。
It looks like a tom just from the track, but just unbelievable country.
来犹他州，你就盼着能在这种地方把猫逼上树。
When you come to Utah, this is where you'd hope to tree one.
哇哦。
Whoo.
这地方我一开始就不喜欢。
Already don't like it.
往下走挺危险的，不过我们还是想看看这条路线。
Pretty sketchy getting down here, but we're gonna try to look this line over.
我们觉得这条路线可能跟昨天的差不多，但到底要不要走，现在真说不准。
We don't we think it's probably the same caliber of line as yesterday, but we really don't know when we're gonna try to take or not.
你刚才提到坡很陡，而且你不太喜欢。
So you you mentioned how steep it is and and that you don't like it.
那东西是从哪儿冒出来的？
Where'd that come from?
你知道的，贾斯汀·霍斯当时在那儿。
Well, you know, Justin House was there.
亨特·米肯当时也在那儿。
Hunter Hunter Meacon was there.
来自亚利桑那的达斯汀也在。
Dustin from Arizona was there.
当时有好几个人跟我们一起下去了，根本没那么严重。
There were there were multiple people there that went down with us, and it was not that big of a deal.
有些地方我们确实得滑着走。
Like, there were parts where we had to slide.
对。
Right.
一路上都有可以抓的地方，但我就是想坦诚一点，说实话。
And there were there was always handholds, but I was I just I was trying to just be vulnerable and honest.
我的心突然猛地跳了一下，那种完全控制不住的悸动。
It it just kind of fluttered my heart, like one of those flutters that you can't control.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时就在想，这到底是怎么回事？
And and I was just like, what is going on?
其实也没那么严重。
Like, this is not even that bad.
但确实挺危险的。
It was bad.
没错。
Like Right.
那天泰·埃文斯穿着一双牛仔靴，他因为靴子太滑，就没往下走。
Like Ty Ty Evans had cowboy boots on that day, and he chose not to go down because he had, like, slick cowboy boots.
而且一旦摔下去，后果会很严重。
And and the consequences of falling were were high.
我的意思是，没错。
I mean, like Right.
好几处几乎是垂直往下，还全是雪。
It it was it was just almost straight down in several spots and snow.
我真的让我的朋友贾斯汀帮我拿着枪。
And, no, it it I had I had I had my buddy Justin carry my gun.
你肯定看得出我有点紧张。
You can tell I was kinda wigged out.
我说，不好意思。
Was like, sorry.
你那场山地狩猎可真是惊险万分。
Well, you had a pretty harrow harrowing situation with your mountain
是啊。
Yeah.
山地枪猎。
Mountain gun hunt.
是的。
Yeah.
没错，我清楚那确实是其中一部分。
Well, that's what I that's what I well, I I know is is part of it is yeah.
我和 Dirt Myth 在悬崖边上待了整整两个小时，就为了挂在那里。
We were me and Dirt Myth were hanging on the side of the cliff for two hours Yeah.
把那只山羊取回来。
Retrieving that goat.
明白了。
Okay.
你一直期待的时刻到了。
The moment you've been waiting for.
好的。
Okay.
接下来我们要聊聊保护工作。
We're gonna talk about conservation.
这些猫完全是肉食动物，百分百靠吃肉活着。
These These cats are I mean, they're carnivores, 100% living off meat.
它们会跟着驼鹿群移动。
And they follow these elk herds.
有意思的是，在犹他州，他们对山狮狩猎的限制放宽了很多。
And what's kind of interesting being here in Utah is that they really liberalized the lion hunting.
你可以全年用陷阱或套索抓它们，没有季节限制。
And I mean they you can trap them, snare them year round season.
不需要特别许可证，只要有一张普通狩猎证就行。
Don't need a tag, just need a license.
你可能会觉得猎狮的人会很高兴，但他们其实不这么想，他们觉得山狮应该得到更谨慎的管理。
And you'd think that the lion hunters would be happy about that, but they're they're not, you know, they feel like they should be managed a little more conservatively.
但鱼类和野生动物管理局这么做的原因是，骡鹿的数量下降了。
But the game of fish has done it because the the mule deer populations are down.
他们想保护一些骡鹿。
They're trying to save some mule deer.
所以呢，这事其实有两面，但当你跟猎狮者聊的时候，他们会希望管理得更谨慎一点。
So, you know, there's probably like two sides of it, but when you're with lion hunters, they're the ones who are, you know, wanting to be more conservative.
猎手们压力也大，你知道的，每一种动物都该有规范。
Taking a beating, know, and we everything needs to be regulated, you know, every species.
但要是只对一种动物放开管控，根本救不了驼鹿。
But just open up wide open for one species is not gonna change our mule deer.
是的。
Yeah.
影响因素太多了。
There's so many other factors.
有公路。
There's highways.
还有干旱。
There's drought.
还有栖息地丧失。
There's habitat loss.
还有太多其他因素了。
There's so many other things.
而且我
And I
我觉得，人类对骡鹿种群造成的伤害，远比狮子要大得多。
think as humans, we play more in the part in hurting the mule deer population than those lions are.
就拿这片区域来说，这里有大量驼鹿，狮子也会捕食它们。
You take an area like this where there's quite a lot of elk so they eat elk also.
它们还吃郊狼、山猫，
They eat coyotes, eat bobcats, they
吃臭鼬。
eat skunks.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
各种各样的
Kinds of
东西，但真让人惊讶，它们在山里
things, but it's amazing how many
带走的人数这么多
people they take out in
在山里。
the hills.
只要一看到骨头，人们就立刻认定是狮子干的。
And the first thing they see some bones, it's automatically a lion kill.
所以每次都是这样，对吧？
So every you know?
所以它们正在
So they're getting
这部电影的主题其实是狮子保护。
The theme of the film really was lion conservation.
过去一年，犹他州把山狮狩猎的限制放宽到了极致。
And in the last year, Utah has opened up mountain lion hunting to to the widest gate possible.
全年都可以猎捕。
It's a year round season.
没有任何数量限制。
There's no quotas.
你根本不需要申请猎捕许可。
You don't have to have a tag.
想猎山狮，连许可证都不用买。
You don't have to buy a tag to hunt one.
就算是非居民，我只要买一张非居民狩猎证，就能合法猎杀山狮。
Even as a nonresident, all I had to do was buy a nonresident hunting license and it was legal for me to harvest a mountain lion.
当然，猎杀之后得去报备，他们会取一颗牙齿，收集一些生物数据。
Now, after you killed it, you do have to check it and they pull a tooth and they gather biological data.
不过，据我了解——虽然这不一定是全部真相——以前犹他州的骡鹿数量大概有五十万只。
But basically this is this is my understanding of it, which is is is not the full picture, but there was a time when there were probably 500,000 mule deer in Utah.
明白吧？
Okay?
比如说在鼎盛时期，那大概是五十年代、六十年代、七十年代吧。
Like in the glory days, which that would have been, you know, I don't know, fifties, sixties, seventies.
曾经有一段时间，犹他州有五十万头骡鹿。
At some point in time, there were 500,000 mule deer in Utah.
根据现在的生态状况和管理方式，据我所知，目前大约有三十万头骡鹿。
With whatever is happening ecologically, management wise, today, as I understand it, they have roughly around 300,000 mule deer.
明白吧？
Okay?
真惊人。
Wow.
而且这种情况已经持续很久了。
And and it's been that way for a long time.
犹他州可是以猎取麋鹿和骡鹿为荣的大州。
Well, Utah is a trophy elk and mule deer state big time.
他们那里还有大约三千只山狮。
They also have about 3,000 mountain lions.
2007年的时候就是这个数，二十年前了，我聊过的那个人觉得，现在大概也差不多，三千只山狮。
In two thousand seven, twenty years ago, and and and it's the guy I talked to believed it was probably similar to that today, 3,000 mountain lions.
也就是说，每一百只鹿就对应一只山狮。
So that's one mountain lion for every 100 deer.
明白吗？
Okay?
山狮毫无疑问是在捕食鹿。
And lions undoubtedly are eating deer.
我跟查克聊过，哦天哪。
And when I talked to I talked to Chuck oh, boy.
我就不提他名字了。
Let me I'm not even gonna say his name.
他是个很不错的人。
He's a great guy.
他长期与州政府机构合作，对山狮非常了解。
He he he's helped he he's worked to state agencies, knows a lot about lions.
一般来说，山狮更倾向于捕猎骡鹿，而不是驼鹿。
Basically, the lions typically are after the mule deer more than the elk.
明白了。
And Okay.
它们并不是均匀地捕食骡鹿。
And they don't just prey upon the the mule deer in uniformity.
更偏向于捕杀雄性个体。
They trend heavier towards males.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yeah.
因为雄性通常独来独往。
Because males are solitary, more solitary.
它们移动得更频繁了。
They're traveling more.
它们更容易受到攻击。
They're just more vulnerable.
虽然它们确实会吃母鹿和幼鹿，但吃掉的雄鹿比例更高。
So they're definitely eating does and fawns, but they there would be a higher percentage of the males that they eat.
这其实有个生物学术语，但说起来对猎人来说，可能不太舒服——毕竟狮子猎杀的是一头大型的明星驼鹿。
And so that actually there's a biological term for it, but that it sounds bad for a sportsman to think of a lion killing a big trophy mule deer.
但从种群层面看，如果狮子吃掉的是母鹿，后果反而更严重。
But from a population level, it's actually less consequential than if that lion killed a doe.
因为一旦母鹿被杀，不仅失去了一只鹿，还断送了它余生所有的繁殖能力。
Because if the lion kills a doe, you're not only killing that doe, but you're killing her reproduction potential for the rest of her life.
当年引入 elk 之后，犹他州最早的狮子研究是在上世纪六十年代，那时候狮子几乎只吃驼鹿，因为那儿几乎没 elk。
And so, basically, when they introduced elk, the first lion studies in Utah were back in the nineteen sixties, and all the the lions, like, exclusively ate mule deer, and it was because there were hardly any elk there.
后来引入了 elk，狮子就开始主要捕食幼年的 elk。
They introduced elk, and they they started taking primarily juvenile elk.
但他提到最有趣的一点是，如果你真正在意马鹿种群的数量，关键在于有多少马鹿幼崽被杀死。
But this is the most interesting thing that he said is that what you really if you're thinking about mule deer populations, what you really have to be focused on is the amount of mule deer fawns getting killed.
明白吗？
Okay?
他说，大量马鹿幼崽都是被郊狼杀死的。
And he said, what kills a bunch of mule deer fawns is coyotes.
他还说，这事儿其实特别复杂，但总的来说，他相信查克的观点。
And so he said he said it was it's it's very complicated, but, basically, it's the he believed Chuck.
我得找找查克的全名。
I gotta find Chuck's name.
稍等一下。
Hold on.
在这儿。
Here.
他叫查克·博登基尔克。
It's Chuck Bodenkirk.
博登丘克
Bodenchuck.
迈克·博登丘克
Mike Bodenchuck.
迈克
Mike.
我一直叫他查克
I was calling him Chuck.
是的
Yeah.
迈克·博登丘克
Mike Bodanchuk.
迈克·博登丘克
Mike Bodanchuk.
他是
He's a
抱歉，迈克。
Sorry, Mike.
他是一名顾问，整个职业生涯都在为州野生动物机构服务，专攻食肉动物管理，特别有经验。
He's a he's a consultant, has worked with state game agencies, with carnivore management for his entire career, like super knowledgeable guy.
我不是直接引用他的话。
And I'm not quoting directly.
我今天刚和迈克聊过。
I just had a conversation with Mike today.
但总的来说，感觉犹他州的猎人们施加了很大压力，要求严控狮子数量。
But basically, it feels like there's lot of pressure coming from the sportsman of Utah to hammer down on the lions.
迈克·博丹丘克也是这么看的——我不会直接引用他的原话。
And and basically, Mike Bodanchuk, and I'm not gonna quote him.
你可以直接问他，但他觉得犹他州的做法不可持续。
You can ask him yourself, but he doesn't think that this he thinks that this is unsustainable, what Utah's doing.
真的吗？
Really?
他他
He he
我本来以为他打电话是想告诉我我搞错了，因为他不知怎么联系上了对方，还看了那部片子。
he I actually thought he was calling me to tell me I got it wrong because he somehow, he got hooked up with him, and he watched the film.
对。
Right.
这位可是专家。
And it's this expert.
我还以为他会说，克莱，你把这个事说得太负面了。
And I actually thought he was gonna say, Clay, you painted this in the wrong light.
结果反而是好事。
This is actually good.
他说，他认为这种做法没法持续。
And he was like, he was like, well, he said, I don't think it's sustainable.
他唯一肯定的是，这项新规定确实为猎人创造了更多机会，而且州政府也不会再猎杀那些有问题的狮子了。
And what he the only positive thing that he did say about this new rule, the the new regulations is that it does just open up a lot of sportsman opportunity, and the the state agencies aren't gonna be killing problem lions.
猎人实际上可以去猎杀一只构成威胁的狮子。
A sportsman could actually go kill a problem lion.
犹他州确实存在家畜被掠食的情况。
So they do have livestock depredation in Utah.
羊和牛等家畜被杀害的数量，比以往任何时候都少。
Sheep, cattle, stuff gets killed less than it has been in a long time.
过去，如果有一只羊被狮子咬死，你会打电话给州政府机构，他们会派一名官方猎人去把那只狮子打死。
But in the past, if you had a sheep get killed by a lion, you would call the the state agency, and they would send out a government hunter to come kill that lion.
现在全年365天都开放狩猎，你随时可以打电话给有猎狮犬的朋友，一起去追踪并猎杀狮子。
Today with three sixty five day a year season, you could call your buddy that's got lion dogs any day of the year and go trail a lion and kill it.
他说，这对猎人来说是个好事。
And, know, he said, you know, that's positive for sportsmen.
没错。
Right.
从2024年11月开始，犹他州报告的山狮总猎获量是530只。
So the total reported harvest of mountain lions in Utah from November '24 is five thirty cats.
五十三头狮子。
Five thirty lions.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
从最简单的情况来看，你可能会想，我第二天遇到的那只狮子，大概每周都会猎杀一只鹿。
It doesn't I mean, in in some really simplistic way, you would just go, well, a lion on the the the the that line that I passed on the second day, he's killing probably a deer a week.
那就是一年五十二只鹿。
So that's 52 deer a year.
于是你就想，把这只狮子除掉。
And you're like, remove that lion.
那你就多出了五十二只鹿。
You have plus 52 deer.
但我觉得麦克莱恩和其他人想表达的是，即使是在繁荣的骡鹿种群中，自然系统本身也已经适应了一定程度的死亡率。
Well, I think what McLean and what others are saying is that mule deer populations, even thriving mule deer populations, they have natural systems built for some level of mortality.
而且还有更多由人类活动和不可控因素造成的死亡，比如干旱导致栖息地退化，路上车辆撞到鹿，还有猎人捕猎鹿。
And there's a whole lot more mortality coming from human induced stuff and stuff beyond our control, droughts that are producing degraded habitat and and just increase people in the state hitting deer on roads, hunters taking deer.
这些影响因素其实有很多小的方面。
There's just a lot of little points.
狮子只是其中一个被关注的数据点，就这么被拿出来了。
And basically, the lions are one data point that are taken taken Right.
鹿的数量在减少。
Deer off the landscape.
对那些了解内情的人来说，简单地按下这个按钮，根本解决不了问题。
And to just smash in that button is to to to the people that I've talked to that are in the know think that that's not really helping.
我们这里有个来自乔·普鲁伊特的留言，编号6063。
We've got a a comment here from Joe Pruitt 6063.
我敢肯定，野生动物委员会也知道狮子不是唯一的原因，但它们可能是最容易控制的一个因素。
I'm sure that the game commission knows that lions aren't the only factor, but they're most likely the easiest factor to control.
这个说法倒也合理。
That's probably a fair statement.
是的。
Yeah.
而且另一个问题是，你知道，犹他州到底有多少认真的山狮猎人？
And it and it's and the other thing is that, you know, how many very serious lion hunters are there in the state of Utah?
我不清楚。
I don't know.
可能几百人吧。
Couple 100 maybe.
对。
Right.
上千人。
Thousand.
犹他州有多少认真的骡鹿和麋鹿猎人？
How many serious mule deer and elk hunters are there in the state of Utah?
非常多。
Lot.
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