YouTube Sidemen团队经理乔丹·施瓦岑伯格，BBC最新危机动态，艾德·希兰Netflix制片人本·温斯顿

嗨。

Hi.

我是凯蒂·拉塞尔，这是BBC广播四台的媒体节目。

I'm Katie Rassel, and this is the media show from BBC Radio four.

你好，欢迎收听。

Hello, and welcome.

现在，你还记得这个吗？

Now, do you remember this?

下雨真是太遗憾了，我觉得美国人会因此认为英国一塌糊涂。

It's such a shame it's raining, so I feel like Americans are gonna get just assume that England is rubbish.

不。

No.

不是在它

Not when it's

不是在它可能发布的时候。

not when this probably comes out.

你好。

Hello.

你能听到我吗？

Can you hear me?

我身在加利福尼亚，梦着过去我们曾是怎样的人。

I'm in California dreaming nothing about who we used to be.

那当然是阿黛尔与詹姆斯·柯登在汽车卡拉OK中的表演，该视频在YouTube上的播放量已达到2.67亿次，并仍在增长。

That was, of course, Adele with James Corden on Carpool Karaoke, which has reached 267,000,000 views on YouTube and counting.

幕后推手本·温斯顿将为我们讲述他最新的项目——一部全程一镜到底拍摄的艾德·希兰纪录片。

Ben Winston, the man behind it, is gonna tell us about his latest venture, a documentary with Ed Sheeran all shot in one take.

我们还将讨论本共同创立的公司，该公司制作了《加文与斯泰西》圣诞特辑、《深夜秀》与詹姆斯·柯登、《卡戴珊家族》，甚至即将推出的2028年奥运会开幕式。

We'll talk about that and the company Ben cofounded, producers of the Gavin and Stacey Christmas special, The Late Late Show with James Corden, The Kardashians, and even the forthcoming twenty twenty eight Olympic opening ceremony.

但首先，我们将回到BBC面临的危机。

But first, we are gonna return to the crisis facing the BBC.

BBC就2021年1月6日对特朗普演讲的剪辑向特朗普道歉，但特朗普表示他仍计划起诉该机构，索赔10亿至50亿美元。

It is apologized to president Trump for an edit of his speech on 01/06/2021, but Trump says he still plans to sue the corporation for between one and five billion dollars.

BBC表示，这一诽谤案没有依据。

The BBC says there is no basis for a defamation case.

这一切都是由一份泄露的内部备忘录引发的，该备忘录不仅提到了对那场演讲的剪辑，还指控BBC存在系统性偏见。

And this is all fallout from a leaked internal memo that raised not just the edit of that speech, but also claims of systemic BBC bias.

这场危机已经导致总干事蒂姆·戴维和新闻部首席执行官黛博拉·特恩斯离职。

It's a crisis that has claimed the director general, Tim Davy, and the CEO of news, Deborah Turness.

但危机尚未结束，因为它引发了关于BBC治理结构和未来前景的深刻问题。

And it's not over yet because it's raising profound questions about the BBC's governance and the BBC's future.

今天我们首先要采访的是《星期日泰晤士报》的媒体编辑罗莎蒙德·艾尔温。

And the first person we're gonna talk to today about it is Rosamund Irwin, media editor at The Sunday Times.

你好，罗莎蒙德。

Hello, Rosamund.

下午好。

Good afternoon.

下午好。

Good afternoon.

那么，我们先从这个可能的诉讼说起。

Well, let's start first with that possible lawsuit.

你如何评价BBC的回应？以及BBC内部是否一致认为这是最佳做法？

How do you assess the BBC's response and also whether there is agreement inside the BBC that this is the best approach?

我认为，当任何新闻机构面临诉讼或即将被起诉时——当然，特朗普尚未正式提起诉讼——他们必须坚决反击。

Well I think when any news organisation is sued and they think they're or about to be sued, I mean of course Trump hasn't actually filed this yet, they need to push back hard.

也就是说，这是经典的应对方式。

I mean, that that's the classic response.

因此，你们的律师会非常忙碌，高管们也会忙着制定最佳回应策略。

So your lawyers will be very busy and so will executives working out the best way to respond.

我认为，他们将会做出非常强硬的回应，因为在美國根本没人看过这段内容。

Now they're gonna have a very strong response, I think, because no one in The US watched this.

他是在佛罗里达州起诉的。

He's Trump is suing in Florida.

他并不是在这里提起诉讼。

He's not suing over here.

实际上，他在英国已经超过了诽谤诉讼的一年时效期，因此他在这里无法提起诉讼。

He would actually be outside the one year claim for libel in The UK, so he wouldn't be able to claim over here.

BBC显然会声称，这并没有损害他的声誉。

He the BBC will clearly claim it won't it didn't damage his reputation.

我的意思是，人们早已将他与1月6日事件紧密联系在一起。

I mean, people had already associated him very heavily with January 6.

而且他当上了总统。

And he became president.

而且他 anyway 当上了总统，

And he became president anyway,

这

which

恰恰说明了这一点。

suggested exactly.

他们还会说，这并非出于恶意，并且会强调美国有着极其强大的言论自由法律。

And it they will say it wasn't done in malice, and they will also make the point that America has incredibly strong free speech laws.

所以我认为，即使在特朗普真正开始行动之前，接下来的反应已经非常明显了。

So I think I think it's quite obvious even before Trump has really got going here, what's going to be the response.

我的意思是，我们在发布前的周末联系了不少律师，大家的共识是他胜诉的可能性不大。

I mean, I obviously spoke to quite a few lawyers over the weekend when we ahead of our publication, and the consensus was he did not have a very strong case.

然而，他是唐纳德·特朗普。

However, he's Donald Trump.

他非常擅长给新闻机构制造麻烦。

He's very good at making life difficult for news organizations.

我们已经看到多家新闻机构，比如ABC、CBS，甚至Facebook的母公司Meta，都与唐纳德·特朗普达成了和解。

And we have seen a number of other news organizations, ABC, CBS, and in fact, Meta, the owner of Facebook, settle with Donald Trump.

那么，这里是否存在商业因素呢？

But so is there a commercial dimension here then?

因为显然，BBC从未掩饰过它在美國的雄心。

Because obviously, the BBC has made no secret of its ambitions in The US.

是的。

Yes.

显然。

Clearly.

我的意思是，我们知道美国一直是BBC重点拓展的地区。

I mean, we know that America has been a big area of focus expanding there.

你知道，那里有一个接受度很高的受众。

You know, there is a receptive audience.

我的意思是，BBC在美国一直享有很高的声誉。

I mean, BBC has actually held in very high steam in The US.

所以那里潜在的受众群体非常庞大，还有很大的增长空间。

So there's a big audience potentially there to grow.

当然，特朗普擅长给那些希望拓展媒体业务的人制造麻烦。

And of course, Trump is good at potentially damaging people who want, you know, media who want to reach out.

我觉得他如何处理这件事会非常有趣，因为他确实可能表现得相当小气。

I I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how how he plays this, because of course, he can be, I mean, effectively petty.

《华尔街日报》曾被禁止登上空军一号。

The Wall Street Journal was banned from being on Air Force One.

他有一些小手段可以反击。

There are little ways he can he can fight back.

如果法院不成功，他实际上还有很多商业上的办法可以做。

And if the courts isn't successful, he can actually you know, there's plenty more things he can do business wise.

别给他什么灵感。

Don't wanna give him any ideas.

但他可以做一些事情，让BBC在美国的日子不好过。

But there are things he can do to make life hard for the BBC in The US.

到目前为止，我们还没有看到任何这方面的迹象。

And so far, we haven't seen any evidence of that.

但更广泛地说，目前BBC陷入这种境地的原因正在上演一场较量，我们稍后会更多地讨论这一点。

But more broadly, there is a battle playing out over the reasons why the BBC is currently in this situation, and we're gonna be talking about that a bit more later.

但你如何看待媒体和威斯敏斯特对此事的看法？

But what is your reading of how this is being viewed in the media and in Westminster?

嗯，这中间存在着相当大的分歧，不是吗？

Well, there's quite a big split, isn't it?

我的意思是，非常有趣的是，我回想起BBC过去经历的那些斗争，它们通常都是与当时的政府发生的。

I mean, what's very interesting is I was thinking back to past battles that the BBC has had, and they're usually with the government of the day.

但在这里，情况恰恰相反。

But of course, here, that's the opposite is the case.

政府实际上站出来为BBC辩护，而丽莎·南迪虽然与蒂姆·戴维关系并不好，但在蒂姆·戴维当天下午辞职的那天早上，她甚至非常坚定地为BBC和他辩护，当时她还在劳拉·金斯伯格的节目中。

The government is actually coming out and defending, and Lisa Nandy, who's not had a brilliant relationship with Tim Davy, was actually very defensive even on the day you know, she's obviously on Laura Ginsburg on the day that Tim Davy ended up resigning in the afternoon, and she was defending the BBC and defending him that morning.

所以我觉得这很有趣，因为这次斗争不再像以往那样是政府与BBC之间的对抗。

So I think it's interesting because it doesn't have that usual dimension where the fight is between the government of the day and the BBC.

实际情况是，媒体内部出现了分裂：一部分媒体认为，这是BBC内部发生的一场右翼政变，右翼董事会成员主导了局面，通过强烈指责所谓的编辑偏见，最终迫使总干事和新闻主管离职。

What it is, of course, is there's a sort of split in the media where one half of the media says this is an example of a sort of right wing coup at the BBC where right wing members of the board have, you know, have really sort of dominated things, they've come out and got rid of, effectively, a a director general and the head of news by complaining deeply about bias, editorial bias.

而另一方则说：等等，别急。

And then you've got the other side saying, well, hang on a minute.

这实际上暴露了一些系统性问题，是我们需要指出的，这根本不是什么右翼政变。

This is actually raising systemic issues and and things we need to flag, and this isn't about a a right wing coup.

用这种视角来看待这件事是不对的。

That's not the right way to look at this.

好的，罗兹曼，请继续和我们在一起。

Well, do stay with us, Rosman.

不过，我们现在要请出斯托尔女男爵。

We're gonna bring in Baroness Stoll now, though.

是的。

Yes.

斯托尔女男爵，蒂娜·斯托尔，曾任英国上议院通信与数字特别委员会主席、BBC企业事务主管，也是一位保守派议员。

Baroness Stoll, Tina Stoll, is a former chair of the House of Lords Communications and Digital Select Committee, former head of corporate affairs at the BBC, and a conservative peer.

伯纳黛特·斯托尔，非常感谢您做客我们的媒体节目。

Bernadette Stoll, thank you very much for joining us on the media show.

嗨，罗丝。

Hi, Ros.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

非常感谢您前来参加。

Now thank you for coming on.

你曾在《每日电讯报》上发表了一篇文章，标题是《BBC必须在为时已晚前改变》。

Now you wrote an article in the Telegraph under the headline, the BBC must change before it's too late.

在文章中，你详细阐述了你认为BBC正在偏离正轨的几种方式。

And in that, you detail some of the ways that you think the BBC is going wrong.

你说它存在一种制度性的盲点，并进一步表示：我不是不认为它们存在制度性偏见。

You say it has an institutional blind spot and go on, it's not that I don't think they are institutionally biased.

我认为情况比这还要严重得多。

I think the situation is far worse than that.

告诉我们为什么。

Tell us why.

我之所以称之为制度性盲点，可能是因为罗斯蒙德刚才提到的一个关于偏见的论点。

Well, the reason why I describe it as an institutional blind spot is probably because of one of the reasons that Rosamund has just pointed to when people talk about bias.

我认为人们很容易将这种偏见解读为左右派的问题，但我想说的是，这比那更严重。

I think it's quite easy for that to get interpreted as a left right type problem, whereas what I'm saying is that this is more serious than that.

这关乎BBC无法意识到，其系统性问题正在将某些观众群体推离。

This is about the BBC not being able to see how is through it its systemic problem pushing some audience groups away.

对于某些受众来说，某些人可能因为具体问题而感到非常失望，比如他们觉得被不尊重、他们的观点被忽视，或未能得到充分的代表和反映，例如在跨性别与性别议题或加沙问题上。

For some audiences, for some people, it may be specific issues where they have felt very disappointed at being disrespected or their perspective being disrespected or not being sufficiently represented and reflected, for instance on the trans and sex issue or on Gaza.

但我认为，在那些也正在远离主流政治的受众或公众中，这是一个更广泛、更根本的问题；对他们而言，他们认为BBC不再代表像他们这样的人，而这一点正是BBC所无法意识到的。

But I think more widely amongst that part of the audience or that part of the public who are also moving away from mainstream politics, this is a much more widespread fundamental problem and for them they see that the BBC isn't really any more representing people like them, and that's what the BBC can't see.

因此，以这些不同的方式来看，BBC未能认识到自身的缺陷——我认为这些缺陷远不止是主席愿意承认的偶尔失误。

So in these various different ways it's not seeing how its failings, which I do think are more than just occasional mistakes that the Chairman is willing to acknowledge.

这种根本性的失败正在将人们推离，而BBC拒绝承认这一问题，正在使其丧失道德权威。

That fundamental failing is pushing people away, and what is happening with the BBC's unwillingness to acknowledge this problem, it's losing its moral authority.

我认为，如果BBC能承认这一点，它的道德权威会更强，而且这也会让它处于更有利的位置，去成为它所渴望并声称要成为的、一个分裂社会的解决方案。

I think it would have a greater moral authority if it acknowledged it, and I think it would also put it in a much stronger position to be the solution to a divided society that it wants to be and claims it is.

目前，它尚未理解自己在这一问题中的角色。

At the moment it's not understanding its part of the problem.

但你描述的是一种更广泛的社会变迁：一些人认为整个政治阶层都不代表他们，一些人认为主流媒体也不代表他们，而你却似乎将这一切后果都归咎于BBC。

But you describe a much broader shift in society where some people see the political class as a whole as not representing them, where some people see mainstream media not representing them, and yet you appear to be laying all of the consequences of that at the BBC's door.

也许BBC其实正在做正确的事，只是被卷入了社会更广泛的变化之中。

Perhaps the BBC may be doing the right things but is caught up in a broader shift in society.

嗯，想想看，我认为BBC并不是唯一一家让某些人对媒体或政治阶层感到沮丧或疏离的机构。

Well, think, I mean, I don't think the BBC is alone in sort of, the way in which some people feel frustrated with the media or disaffected with political class.

造成这一切的根本原因并不仅仅在于BBC。

It's not just the BBC that is at the root of all this.

我认为BBC的问题有两个方面。

Think I the problem for the BBC is twofold.

一是它是一家公共服务机构，是国家广播公司，我们所有人都必须通过电视执照费来为其付费。

One is that it is a universal service, it's a national broadcaster, we are all required to pay for it by the licence fee.

正如我所说，为了存在，它必须拥有这种权威和公众的信任。

And as I say, for it to exist, it has got to have that authority and the confidence of

但我只是想弄清楚，听你这么说，我想到了蒂姆·达维（Tim Davy）这位即将离任的总干事所作的许多公开声明，他谈到了BBC服务具有普遍性的重要意义，谈到了倾听多元观点、提供覆盖全国内容的重要性。

everything But I'm just trying to understand, as I listen to you, I'm thinking of any number of public statements that Tim Davy, the outgoing Director General, has given where he talks about the vital importance of the BBC services being universal, where he's talked about the vital importance of hearing a range of perspectives, of hearing content that caters for the whole country.

你能给我们提供一些证据，说明为什么你认为BBC在某些群体中未能做到这一点吗？

Where can you give us evidence of why you think the BBC is not managing to do that in some quarters?

正如我所说，如果我们具体来看几个话题，有时候问题在于BBC没有足够从不同的角度来审视这些问题。

Well, as I said, if we take a couple of the topics specifically, sometimes what it is, it's just the way in which the BBC isn't sufficiently looking at a matter through a different lens.

过去，当我们讨论和审视公正性问题时，正如我所说，它一直被框定在政党政治的左右翼语境中。而如今，我认为人们越来越觉得，更大的图景没有得到反映。

So in the past, when we've debated and examined the question of impartiality, as I say, it's been very much framed in a party political way in a left right type context, Whereas now, I think what people sort of feel increasingly is that there's just not the bigger picture being reflected.

以几周前在伦敦举行的‘团结王国’游行为例，那是一场规模巨大的活动。

So if you take as an example the most recent Unite the Kingdom demonstration that occurred in London a few weeks ago, now that was a massive event.

成千上万的人参加了游行，BBC的报道，以及不仅仅是BBC，其他广播媒体的报道，最初都聚焦于现场的暴力分子，比如汤米·罗宾逊和其他站在台上的人员。

There were thousands and thousands of people turned up and BBC reports and the not just the BBC but other broadcast reports that focus very much initially on the violent folks that were there and Tommy Robinson and others on the stage.

我绝不是说应该忽略这一部分事件，但当天更宏大的图景是，成千上万的普通民众根本不是为了汤米·罗宾逊而来，而是为了表达自己的声音。

Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that that part of that event should be ignored, but the much bigger picture that was going on that day was the thousands and thousands of ordinary people who were not at all there for Tommy Robinson, but there to express themselves.

令人耳目一新的是，第二天在天空新闻台，特雷弗·菲利普斯给出了他的观点，这非常清新，因为他所说的内容与其他人截然不同——他告诉我们，我们忽略了这件事的核心：许多你平时在本地超市排队时都能见到的普通人，都走上了街头。

What was refreshing was the following day on Sky News, Trevor Phillips actually gave his perspective, which was so refreshing because it was not what everybody else was saying, was telling us we're missing the main point of this, which is that lots of ordinary people that you would just see in the queue at the local supermarket are turning out.

这种类型的报道，你却很少看到或听到吗？

It's that sort of thing that you don't see enough or hear enough of?

我相信BBC新闻会指出他们对这次游行有多方面的报道，并且会从更广泛的层面为自己辩护。

Well, I'm sure BBC News would point to a range of coverage of that particular march and would would defend itself more broadly.

但我们需要说明的是，我们曾邀请BBC新闻或BBC整体参与今天的节目，但他们没有出席。

But we should say we've asked BBC News or the BBC more broadly to take part in today's program, and they haven't.

然而，上周我确实问过BBC主席萨米尔·沙阿，BBC内部是否存在系统性偏见的问题。

However, last week, I did ask BBC chairman Samir Shah about whether there was an ongoing problem with systemic bias inside the BBC.

我认为有些情况是个人错误，但这些案例和问题指向了更深层的根源。

I think there are cases where it's individual errors and the case and the issues point to more underlying problem.

这就是我对它的看法。

That's the way I would characterize it.

系统性偏见或制度性偏见的概念，是一种更深层、更根本的东西。

The the notion of systemic bias or institutional bias is just something deeper and something profound.

我曾在BBC新闻部工作过。

And I I've worked in BBC News.

我知道BBC新闻的基因和文化是追求公正。

I know that the BBC News DNA and culture is to be impartial.

它旨在提供我们所能提供的最好、最可信的新闻。

It's to provide the best news we can and the most trustworthy news we can.

罗斯曼·欧文，如果我们只是采纳蒂娜·斯塔尔刚才提到的一些观点，来自《星期日泰晤士报》的罗斯曼·欧文，她的评论是否凸显了BBC面临的政治挑战？

Rosman Owen, if we just pick up some of the things that Tina Stall was saying there, Rosman Ros Owen from the Sunday Times, do her comments highlight the political challenge facing the BBC?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为BBC在许多这些问题上处于非常困难的境地。

I think the BBC is in a really difficult position on a lot of these issues.

这也是整个媒体面临的问题。

And it is an issue for the broader media.

我的意思是，我认为媒体在很多方面都出了错。

I mean, I think there was a, you know, a lot was got wrong across the media.

你提到了跨性别问题。

And you mentioned trans issues.

我认为这是一个很好的例子，长期以来，媒体上缺乏多元化的观点。

I think that'd be a good example where that, you know, we didn't have a diversity of opinion across the media for a long time.

我确实去过联合王国档案馆，为报纸去报道了那件事。

I actually was at the Unite, the Kingdom Archive, I sent to cover it for the paper.

这确实很有挑战性，我要补充一下。

And it is really challenging, should add.

我认为人们意识到，作为记者报道大规模抗议活动是多么困难。

I think people realize how difficult covering a massive protest is as a journalist.

这实际上是我们所做的最具挑战性的事情之一，因为事件就在你眼前发生，而你要准确把握其氛围却非常非常困难，因为你只能采访到有限的人。

It's actually one of the more challenging things we do because it's going on in front of you, and it's actually it's very, very difficult to get the right feel for it because you can only speak to a certain number of people.

蒂娜·斯托尔，你在《每日电讯报》的文章中写道，公正性已不再如往昔。

And, Tina Stoll, in your article in The Telegraph, you wrote impartiality is not what it used to be.

所以，最后我想问问你，你认为BBC应该如何做到公正？

So I just wonder, finally with you, if you could outline how you think the BBC should approach being impartial.

正如我所说，我能表达观点的最简单方式是，我认为他们必须不断以不同的视角来看待同一个问题，而不仅仅是换个角度。

Well, as I said, the most simple way I can make my point is that I think they have to constantly be looking at one issue looking at it through a different lens, not just from a different angle.

我认为，对于性与跨性别这类问题，他们必须承认问题在于他们最初的立场，而这使得他们所带来的一切后续报道都带有偏见。

I think that with some issues like the sex and transgender thing they have to acknowledge that the problem with that was the position from which they started, and that therefore makes it they bring to everything that follows that

视角。

of angle.

不过，我应该指出，11月10日，萨米尔·沙阿曾表示，在关于性与性别认同的审查中，编辑标准委员会指出，大部分报道符合BBC的公正性和准确性标准。

Well, that issue I should say that on tenth November, Samir Shah said, on the review of sex and gender identity, the editorial standards committee noted much of the coverage met the BBC standards of impartiality and accuracy.

因此，您对BBC处理该问题方式的分类，并非BBC自身所认同的。

So the categorization of the BBC's approach to the issue that you use is not one that's shared by the BBC.

我们就到这里吧。

We're gonna leave it there.

阿斯托尔勋爵，非常感谢您参与我们的节目。

Baron Astol, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

我应该再次强调，我们曾邀请BBC参与今天的节目。

And I should just reiterate, we asked the BBC to take part in today's program.

但BBC拒绝了。

It declined.

为了更好地理解这一点，BBC作为一个机构，除了许多其他职责外，还通过采访来追究人们的责任。

And to put this in context, the BBC is an institution that, amongst many other things, seeks to hold people to account for their actions by interviewing them.

每天都有数百人同意接受BBC的采访。

Hundreds of people agreed to be interviewed by the BBC every day.

但这场危机已经持续了两周多，迄今为止，BBC仅就此事接受了一次采访。

But this crisis is over two weeks old, and so far, the BBC has granted a total of one interview on what's happening.

那是凯蒂九天前对主席萨米尔·沙阿进行的那次采访。

That was the one which Katie conducted with the chair, Samir Shah, nine days ago.

除此之外，关于这个话题再也没有任何采访了。

Beyond that, no interviews on this story at all.

但是，凯蒂，这些问题并不会消失，尤其是对主席而言。

But, Katie, the questions aren't going away, not least for the chair.

我认为这完全正确。

I think that's absolutely right.

在他任内，已经有两位高管离职。

He has lost two top executives on his watch.

我知道，最终蒂姆·戴维觉得个人压力太大，决定离开。

You know, I do believe that in the end, Tim Davy just felt that the pressure was too much on him personally, and he decided to go.

但董事会主席 overseeing 这一切，情况仍然不理想。

But still, it's not great for the chairman of the board to to have overseen that.

还有BBC反应迟缓的问题。

There was also the issue of how long it took for the BBC to react.

一旦《每日电讯报》开始刊登关于《广角镜》的报道，而BBC又未作出回应，白宫便开始攻击BBC，人们普遍对董事会的运作方式仍存疑虑。

Once the Telegraph started publishing its stories about Panorama and, of course, without a reaction, the White House then began to attack the BBC, and there are concerns remaining more broadly about how the board is functioning.

周一将涌现大量问题，因为议员们将有机会就这一事件的核心人物进行质询。

And there are a lot of questions coming on Monday because MPs are gonna get their chance to speak to some of the main players in this story.

所以，是的，这正是我们所有人翘首以待的。

So, yes, this is what we're all waiting for.

我敢肯定，罗斯曼会和我一样全神贯注地观看。

I'm sure Rosman will be glued as much as I will be.

这是文化、媒体和体育委员会。

It's the Culture, Media, and Sport Committee.

我们将听取两位前BBC独立顾问的证词，他们曾任职于编辑标准与治理委员会，其中包括撰写了引爆此事的泄露备忘录的迈克尔·普雷斯科特。

We'll be hearing from the two former independent advisers to the BBC, to the editorial standards and governance commit, the editorial standards committee, and those include Michael Prescott, who wrote the leaked memo that kicked all this off.

仅这一点就足以成为焦点事件。

So that in itself could be box office.

接下来是主席萨米尔·沙阿以及董事会成员罗比·吉布斯爵士和卡罗琳·汤普森接受质询。

Then it is the turn of chairman Samir Shah with board members, Sir Robbie Gibbs and Caroline Thompson.

现在，BBC高层的所有注意力都集中在为该委员会听证会做准备上。

Now all the focus at the top of the BBC is going on preparing for that committee hearing.

我认为，主席是否能继续留任这个问题是这一切的核心。

And I think the question of the chairman's ability to remain in his job is at the heart of all this.

当然，他有支持者，但我认为BBC内部的谈话氛围正在发生变化。

Of course, he has his supporters, but the tone of the conversation inside the BBC, I think, has been shifting.

而且，人们确实对由此导致总干事和新闻部首席执行官离职感到愤怒。

And there is certainly anger that what unfolded led to the departure of the director general as well as the CEO of News.

因此， scrutiny（审查）主要集中在了他身上。

So the scrutiny is very much on him.

所以，这些将在周一发生。

So that is coming on Monday.

到目前为止，在媒体节目中，我们聚焦于BBC当前的危机以及它如何走出困境。

And so far on the media show, we focused on the BBC's current crisis and how it plots its way out of it.

但不可避免的是，这样的时刻引发了关于BBC未来的一系列问题。

Inevitably though, a moment like this brings a range of questions about the BBC's future.

BBC在五年或十年后应该追求成为什么样的机构？

What should the BBC aim to be in five or ten years' time?

实际上可能实现什么样的BBC？

What kind of BBC is actually possible?

我很高兴地介绍，今天在演播室里有两位嘉宾：Boom Radio的联合创始人菲尔·雷利，以及Arcade Media的联合创始人、The Sidemen的管理者乔丹·施瓦岑贝格。

And I'm delighted to say joining us here in the studio studio are Phil Reilly, who's cofounder of Boom Radio, and Jordan Schwarzenberger, who's cofounder of Arcade Media and manager of The Sidemen.

两人都对BBC需要做什么有鲜明的看法。

Both have strong views on what the BBC needs to do.

那么，菲尔，我们先从你开始。

So, Phil, let's start with you.

你曾表示，BBC正处于否认现实的状态，需要一段静心反思的时期。

You have said that the BBC is in denial and needs a period of quiet reflection.

如果BBC认真这样做，你认为最应该优先考虑的是什么？

If it were to do that seriously, what do you think should be top of the list?

嗯，我想接着刚才那番对话中的一个观点来谈。

Well, I think the I wanna pick pick up at one point that came out of that previous conversation.

BBC未能充分服务D和E类受众，即社会经济阶层D和E群体，而英国通信管理局已经对此提出了批评。

The BBC is under serving d and e audiences, the social socioeconomic groups d and e, and Ofcom has picked the BBC up on that.

去年，当Boom Radio与BBC就新广播电台发生冲突时，商业广播公司反对这些新电台，其理由是这些新电台能更好地服务D和E群体，但实际上这一说法毫无根据。

And last year, when Boom Radio had its run-in with the BBC about new radio stations, the commercial radio were lobbying against those new stations, the justification for them was this, they were going to serve the DE audience better, and there actually was no justification for that.

而真正最能服务D和E群体的BBC服务——BBC地方广播——却一直在被削减资金，我认为这恰恰是另一个例子，说明BBC的优先事项可能与其真正需要服务所有目标受众所应具备的优先事项不一致。

And the BBC service that did that does serve DE audiences the best, BBC Local Radio, is being defunded all the time, and I think that's just one more example of where the BBC's priorities might not match those that they really need to have in order to serve all the audiences that it's that it's trying to.

更广泛地说，让我感到震惊的是，如果这是一家商业机构，董事会在备忘录泄露前就已看到内容，并且明显即将被泄露，那么董事会肯定会提前准备一场强有力的公关回应来阻止事态发展。

At a more general level, what struck me about this process is had that been a commercial organization where the board had seen this memo before it was leaked and it was obvious that it was going to be leaked, the board would surely have prepared a dramatic PR response to head it off at the pass.

而如今除了你做过的那一次采访之外，BBC没有任何其他回应，这表明BBC高层一定存在严重的功能失调，因为任何正常机构都会拿到这份备忘录，聘请顶尖公关专家精心拟定回应。

And the fact that there's been nothing apart from the one interview that you've done just says that there's a must be a massive dysfunction at the very top of the BBC because any normal organization would have taken taken that memo, crafted a response, crafted it with the best PR experts.

但你是否认为

But do

你是否将此解读为董事会与新闻部门之间的分裂，比如与管理层之间的矛盾？你是怎么理解的？

you read that as a breakdown between the board and the news side of things, you like the executive, or how do you read that?

嗯，我不确定。

Well, I don't I don't know.

但归根结底，这本书的结尾还是落在了主席和总干事身上。

But but at the end of the day, the the book does stop with the chairman and the DG.

你知道，总干事已经引咎辞职了，我们上节目前还聊过，总干事这工作有多难做。

Know, the DG's fallen on his sword, and we talked before we came on air, didn't we, about how what a job the director generals is.

谁会想干这份工作？简直是地狱般的工作。

Who would want that job, the job from hell?

还有主席。

Also, the chairman

薪酬非常高，

Very well paid, the

多数人。

majority.

薪酬。

Paid.

我知道。

I know.

是的。

Yeah.

主席的职位报酬并没有那么高。

The the chairman's job isn't quite so well paid.

它可能甚至更加困难。

It is more probably even more difficult.

但董事会的核心似乎出了问题，因为任何一个运作良好、功能正常的董事会都会直面这个问题，而BBC却没有直面它。

But there just seems to be something at the very heart of the board that seems to be amiss because any well run, well functioning board would have tackled that head on, and the the BBC has not tackled it head on.

那么，你认为什么样的治理结构和领导体制才能给BBC目前所需的公信力呢？

And what sort of governance, what sort of leadership structure do you think would give the BBC the credibility it needs right now?

嗯，我的意思是，我不太了解萨米尔·沙阿。

Well, I I mean, I don't know Samir Shah.

他给我的印象是非常非常好的一个人。

He strikes me as a very, very nice person.

我不确定，作为BBC的主席，‘为人很好’是不是一个必要的品质。

I'm not sure whether being a very nice person is a quality that you need as the chairman of the BBC.

我认为你需要一个更有街头智慧、更具政治头脑的人。

I think you need somebody who's got paper a bit more street smarts and a bit more political smarts about him.

所以我认为高层需要一些变革和力量，目前也有一些有趣的人被提及为总干事人选。

So I I think there is that there's a need for some change and strength at the top, and there are some interesting people being talked about as director general.

我认为，对于三四个高层职位来说，确实需要一个全新的开始。

You know, I think there's a there's a a need for, I think, a fresh start with three or four of the top jobs.

你是一个非常了解广播、也了解许多其他事物的人，尤其深谙广播领域。

And you're a man who knows a lot about radio, lots of other things as well, but very much steeped in radio.

你曾警告说，在一个精简后的BBC中，BBC广播可能会成为被遗弃的资产。

And you have warned that BBC Radio could become an orphan asset in a stripped down BBC.

你对BBC广播在未来资金模式下如何生存并繁荣有何愿景？

What is your vision of how BBC Radio could survive and thrive in a future funding model?

我们知道，特许状续期将在年底正式启动。

We know that, you know, charter renewal is kicking off properly at the end of the year.

我认为这很困难，因为似乎有一种强大的势头，要将BBC拆分为两个部门：一个核心BBC由减少后的执照费资助，另一个订阅部门则承担BBC的其余业务。

I I think it's difficult because there seems to be a head of steam to move to a two division BBC with a core BBC that's funded by maybe a reduced license fee and then a subscription division of the BBC that that picks up the the rest of what the BBC does.

我认为在这种模式下，我不确定除了Radio Three和Radio Four之外，其他广播成本是否会被纳入核心BBC模式，但我认为BBC其余的广播网络很难成为核心BBC的一部分，也肯定不会被欢迎进入订阅部门，因为它们无法带来任何订阅收入。

And I think in that model, I'm not sure the costs outside of, I suspect, Radio three and Radio four would go in a core BBC model, but I think the rest of the BBC's radio networks would find it difficult to be part of the core BBC and certainly wouldn't be welcome inside a subscription division because they don't bring any subscription money with them.

我认为它们最终会成为被遗弃的资产，而《每日邮报》和《每日电讯报》专栏作者给出的答案是：它们可以靠广告支持。

And I think they end up as orphan assets, and the answer that people that write columns in the Daily Mail and the Telegraph is, well, they'll take advertising.

让我告诉你，根本就没有足够的广告收入来支撑它们。

Let me tell you, there just isn't the advertising there to support them.

我认为这对BBC广播来说是一个至关重要的时刻。

It's I think it's a really critical moment for BBC Radio.

乔丹·施瓦岑贝格，我们来听听你的看法。

Jordan Schwarzenberger, let's bring you in.

你好。

Hi there.

你也毫不掩饰地表达过对BBC发展方向的对错看法。

You have also not been shy about sharing your thoughts on where the BBC is going right and going wrong.

你认为，若要覆盖全国而非仅部分区域，BBC的优先事项应该是什么？

What do you think should be its priorities if it's to reach not just some of the country, but all of the country?

嗯，你看，我周三接受了《卫报》的采访。

Well, look, I, you know, I did an interview with The Guardian on the Wednesday.

所有事情都是周日爆发的。

It all kicked off on the Sunday.

这真不是我的错，伙计们。

It wasn't my fault, guys.

我就直说了，这事跟我没关系。

I'm just gonna say it wasn't me.

但我认为这其实是一个巨大的机遇。

But I I think this is a really big opportunity.

从商业角度来看，我觉得这件事非常令人兴奋，因为我看到的是一个拥有庞大受众的机构，同时却面临着一项极其困难、甚至不可能完成的任务——服务如此多元化的群体。

I'm looking at this as a in in quite an exciting light commercially, actually, because I look at this as an institution that has amassed this immense audience, but at the same time has this incredibly difficult, if not impossible job of serving a broad church.

我很幸运受邀在内容领袖日发表主题演讲。

I was very fortunate to to be invited to do a keynote speech at the at the Content Leaders Day.

我对他们说，随着Z世代逐渐迷失并脱离曾经那种统一的英国身份认同，这会变得越来越难，而BBC过去正是代表这种认同的。

And I said to them, I said, it's gonna be increasingly hard as Gen z becomes lost and I think detached from what was once a a kind of unifying British identity, right, which the BBC used to represent.

随着这种统一性的消解，我认为BBC必须找到自己的定位，转向微文化，让人们能够与全球不同亚文化群体产生共鸣，而非依赖那种英国统一性的认同。

As that sort of strips away, I think it has to find its place to effectively micro cultures and people who might relate with people across the world in different subcultures rather than that sense of British unity.

我认为，以当前的模式来看，这非常非常困难。

I think that's very, very hard with the current model.

所以对我来说，关键在于审视这个庞大的受众群体，以及团队所拥有的海量内容和专业能力。

So for me, it's, you know, looking at the audience that's so big and the immense amount of content and the expertise that the team have.

我认为，如何面向未来十年，转向一种在我看来更具商业性的模式？

How can that, I think, look towards the next ten years, which is is, in in my view, a far more commercial model?

我知道，在这些墙内这么说或许算是大逆不道，但我认为，随着文化变迁，执照费已不再可持续，因为我们已经失去了中心。

I don't and I know this is maybe blasphemy in these in these walls, but I don't think that the license fee is is sustainable for this changing culture because we've lost the center.

我认为，这一切都指向了这一点。

I think that's what this all points to.

如果你关注围绕这个问题的各种声音，就会发现各方都已走向极端。

And if you look at the voices and and, you know, the the kind of talk around this whole issue, it's radicalized on all sides.

每个人都走向了极端，因为我认为，这个国家的中心已经崩溃了。

Everyone's going from either one way or the other because the center, I think, in this country has broken down.

这在政治上也有所体现。

That's reflected politically.

但这使得BBC以当前形式生存变得非常困难。

Although And that makes it very hard for the BBC to survive in its current form.

不过，乔丹，有些人可能会提到一些名人叛徒，或者最近的一些体育赛事和其他国家事件，这些都证明在某些时刻，全国各年龄段的大量人群仍会聚集在BBC周围。

Although, Jordan, some people might point to celebrity traitors or they might point to certain sporting events recently and other national events, which are evidence that at certain points, vast numbers across the country, across generations will still gravitate towards the BBC.

是的。

Yeah.

有一句谚语说，例外恰恰证明了规则的存在。

I mean, there's a saying, which is the exception proves the rule.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，就拿那些叛徒的例子来说，那确实是个了不起的精彩时刻，但如果你往前推十年，那只是常态。

I mean, I would always say with with the traitors example, amazing, brilliant moment, but, you know, you dial back ten years, that was just standard.

因为那时我们拥有这种单一文化，这样的时刻经常发生。

Like, you had those moments all the time because we had this monoculture.

我们曾经拥有一个所有人都汇聚其中的空间。

We had this space where everyone gravitated to.

你有那些水 cooler 时刻，那种英国统一的娱乐感。

You have those water cooler moments, that sense of British unifying entertainment.

拥有这些过去的闪现固然美好，但它们已不再是常态。

And it's nice to have those flickerings of the past with that, but it's it's not the norm anymore.

那么请帮我们理解一下，你建议的是一个更去中心化的BBC模式，还是一个更商业化的模式？

So help us understand then what you're suggesting, a more decentralized model for the BBC, a more commercial model.

但从实际操作来看，这意味着什么？

But in practical terms, what does that mean?

为众多不同平台制作内容，并为其植入订阅、广告或赞助？

Making content for lots of different platforms and and putting subscription or advertising or sponsorship against it?

听好了。

Look.

我认为，我们需要对线性电视及其发展趋势采取一种非常残酷、真实且现实的态度。

I think I think it's being very brutal and real and realistic around linear and the way that that's going.

我认为在YouTube上采取更积极的策略，因为无论我们喜不喜欢，它都正在成为Z世代的新渠道。

I think it's being more aggressive on on YouTube, which is becoming the new pipe, whether we like it or not for Gen Z.

你知道，在美国，YouTube的流媒体占比已经达到三分之一。

You see it as, know, 33 of all streaming in The US.

它远远超过Netflix和其他平台，是最大的平台。

It's the biggest by by far beating Netflix and the others.

所以我认为应该更多地投入这一领域，同时把iPlayer视为一项巨大的资产，它实际上拥有最庞大的年轻观众群体之一。

So I think leaning more into that and also looking at iPlayer as this immense asset, which has, you know, actually one of the biggest cohorts of of younger audiences on there.

在我看来，如何才能让它成为一个订阅制业务？

How can that become, in my view, a subscription business?

因为在我看来，所有这些问题最大的问题是缺乏对消费者的问责机制，因为如果你想取悦广泛的受众，就很难满足每个人的需求。

Because the biggest problem with all of this, in my mind, is a lack of, in in a way, accountability to the consumer because it's very, very difficult to service everybody if you're trying to please a broad church.

而如果采用更商业化、更直接的模式，我认为这能使其现代化，转变为一种科技型业务，从而有机会在全球范围内规模化发展，并因此以一种更健康的供需关系，在全球舞台上代表英国。

Whereas if it's a more commercial direct model, that I think modernizes it and turns it into more of a a kind of tech play, which I think actually has the the chance to do at scale globally and represent Britain on the global stage as a result with a much more healthier dynamic, I think, between the provider and and the customer.

来自《星期日泰晤士报》的罗斯·阿温，请你重新发言。

Ros Arwin from The Sunday Times, let's bring you back in.

在未来一两年里，你将和我一样关注特许经营权续期的问题。

You're gonna be covering charter renewal as much as I am over the next year or two.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

你觉得政府在想什么？

How what do you think of what the government's thinking?

你觉得他们会听取乔丹·施瓦茨的意见吗？他的想法会被考虑吗？

Do you think they'd be listening to Jordan's Schwartz do you think that his thoughts would be something that is being considered?

或者

Or

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为他们不敢采取任何行动，不是吗？

But I think they're scared to do anything, aren't they?

因为我们要记住的一点是，我们讨论的不只是2027年的资金模式，而是2037年的模式。

Because and and I think one thing we have to remember is we're not just talking out of funding model for 2027, we're talking about one for 2037.

十年后，媒体格局将完全改变。

And the land media landscape is gonna look completely different in a decade.

我认为他们害怕对整体格局做出任何改变。

I I think they're scared of doing anything to change things broadly.

我的意思是，简短地说，安迪先是支持为BBC的预征税提供资金，但随即又否决了这一方案。

I mean, very briefly, least, Andy ruled in, you know, funding the BBC's pre taxation, then immediately ruled it out.

所以这个方案被排除了。

So that's out.

我们都知道这一点。

We know that.

但他们表示愿意考虑所有不同的想法。

But they're saying they're open to all the different ideas.

我应该指出，近年来其他欧洲国家已经审视了执照费模式，并决定放弃它。

I should say that other European countries have looked at the license fee model and decided to move away from it in recent years.

因此，德国转向了家庭税模式。

So Germany moved towards a household tax.

现在，他们可能害怕在任何地方出现‘税收’这个词，但除了广告和订阅模式之外，还有其他选择。

Now, they probably are afraid of having the word tax anywhere, but there are other options beyond advertising subscription model.

还有其他可能性。

There are other possibilities.

执照费确实感觉过时了，不是吗？

A licence fee does feel outdated, doesn't it?

当我们讨论这个问题，并思考BBC制作的各种内容时，菲尔，你认为继续将所有内容捆绑在一起现实吗？

And and as we discuss this and we think about all of the different types of content that BBC creates, Phil, do you think that it is realistic to continue to bundle it?

因为目前，BBC将所有内容一次性提供给所有人。

Because, of course, at the moment, the BBC offers everything in one go to everyone.

但你认为，随着时间推移，广播是否应该被视为一个独立实体，或者数字平台上的内容是否应被视为另一个独立类别？

But do you think, in time, maybe radio needs to be treated as one entity or off platform digital content needs to be treated as another?

我认为，你永远无法像现在通过普遍执照费那样获得如此庞大的一笔资金。

I I think you're never going to get as much money in one pot as you currently get from the universal license fee.

38亿

3,800,000,000 a

年。

year.

是的。

Yeah.

任何脱离这种部分订阅、广告资助模式的举措都将导致收入减少，这意味着BBC不得不减少投入。

Any move away from that partial subscription, ad funding, all of those things are going to mean less money coming in, which means the BBC is going to have to do less.

所以我认为这是关键所在。

So I think that's that's the key thing.

蒂姆·蒙哥马利上周在你的节目中说，我认为他给出了这个问题的正确答案，尽管令人遗憾：在下一轮中，不要对执照费做任何改变。

Tim Montgomery, last week on your show, said what I thought was the the correct answer to this, I'm afraid, which is just don't do anything in terms of the license fee for another round.

让执照费再维持一轮。

Leave the license fee for another round.

先解决BBC的管理和领导问题。

Sort out the management, the leadership of the BBC.

这是蒂姆·蒙哥马利给奈杰尔·法拉奇的建议，

That was Tim Montgomery's advice to Nigel Farrah,

他说。

he says.

不会接受。

Won't take.

他可能不会接受，但我觉得蒂姆上周在节目中说的才是最明智的话。

Which he probably won't take, but that's I I think Tim spoke the most sensible words that I heard last week on the show.

乔丹·斯瓦尔·施瓦茨伯格，你认为如果BBC不采取你建议的路线，会有什么风险？

And Jordan Swal Schwartzberger, what do you think the risks are if the BBC doesn't take the route you're suggesting?

你的预测是什么？

What are your predictions?

嗯，我的意思是，如果到2037年，那可是很长一段时间。

Well, I mean, if it's to 2037, that's a long time.

我认为你可以看看媒体走到了多远。

I think you look how far media's gone.

在我看来，我知道，广播就是一个很好的例子，它已经改变了部分轨迹。

In my view, it's and I know, you know, radio is a good example of this, changes part of the course.

而且，就线性媒体和广播的发展趋势而言，这只会朝着一个方向前进。

And this is only going one way in terms of the way that, you know, linear is going, the way that radio is going.

在我看来，这是一种更健康的调整，因为它使媒体更贴近未来——因为那时你完全依赖订阅和直接付费。

And in my view, it's a healthier correction because it brings it more in line with with the future because you're then beholden entirely to subscriptions and and and direct payments.

我认为，执照费的问题在于，它会引发非常负面的讨论。

I think one thing with the license fee is it becomes a very negative conversation.

所以我们是该阻止人们离开，还是该真正推动它增长？

So how do we stop people from going rather than how do we really grow it?

我认为，在一个日益碎片化的国家里，想要持续增长是不可持续的。

And I think to grow in a increasingly fragmented country becomes untenable.

我无法想象，十年内它还能如何生存下去。

And I can't see how within ten years it can survive that today.

但我想进一步了解的是，即使BBC采纳了你的建议，重视技术、推动内容脱离平台、丰富内容种类，是什么让BBC区别于一个单纯的成功的媒体机构？

But one thing I wanna further understand though is even if the BBC does the things that you're suggesting, puts an emphasis on technology, pushes more content off platform, diversifies the the range of content it offers, what would make it the BBC as opposed to simply a successful media operation?

我认为，BBC是英国创作者、英国娱乐人、英国新闻的代言人，是它在全球范围内赢得声誉的象征。

I think being the flag bearer for British creators, for British entertainers, for British news, for what it's become renowned for around the world.

我的意思是，随便去哪儿看看。

Mean, look at go anywhere.

BBC的品牌非常受尊重。

The BBC brand is so respected.

我认为，在我的看法中，它必须在内外部尽可能地倡导英国文化，但要采用一种更健康的模式。

And I think in my view, it has to champion British culture as much as it can externally and internally, but with a healthier model.

乔丹，菲尔，非常感谢你们。

Jordan, Phil, thank you very much indeed.

罗斯玛丽，最后一个问题给你。

One last question for you, Rosamund.

我们都在进行这场讨论，但在决定BBC未来资金的正式过程中，政界人士和BBC如何整合我们听到的各种观点？

We're all having this conversation, but in the more formal process of settling the BBC's future funding, how do politicians and the BBC get all of the different perspectives we're hearing?

这个过程是怎样的？

What's the process?

我们首先会发布一份白皮书，然后是一份绿皮书。

Well, we have a white paper and then a green paper.

我理解得对吗？

Am I getting that the right way around?

先绿皮书，再白皮书。

Green paper then white.

先绿皮书，再白皮书。

Green paper then a white paper.

抱歉。

Sorry.

抱歉。

Sorry.

嗯。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

嗯。

Yeah.