诊断移植医学的未来 - 赛默飞

欢迎回到《医疗创新播客》。

Welcome back to the Medical Innovation Podcast.

我是巴纳布·桑吉，今天和我的联合主持人阿尔文德·拉詹一起主持。

My name is Barnabh Sangvi, here with my co host, Arvind Rajan.

今天，我们邀请到了赛默飞世尔公司移植诊断业务的全球总裁蒂娜·利德茨基。

Today, we're speaking with Tina Liedtky, the global president of Transplant Diagnostics at Thermo Fisher.

蒂娜，很高兴你能来。

Tina, it's so great to have you.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

我非常期待这次对话。

I'm really excited to be here.

蒂娜，赛默飞世尔是一家规模很大的公司。

Tina, Thermo Fisher is an enormous company.

我觉得它的业务范围非常广。

I think there's a huge scope.

我们做的范围很广，从研发生物研究工具，到药物分析、专业诊断，甚至还有提供CRO和CDMO服务的子公司。

We do everything from creating tools for biological research to pharmaceutical analyses, specialty diagnostics, and even have subsidiaries that do CRO, CDMO services.

我很想听听你具体在赛默飞是做什么的？你是怎么走到今天的？能分享一下你的背景吗？

I'd love to hear more about what's your role at Thermo Fisher and how did you get to where you are and how, what's your background?

当然可以。

Yeah, sure.

正如你所说，我是赛默飞移植诊断业务的总裁。

As you said, I'm the president of our Transplant Diagnostics business at Thermo Fisher.

我是怎么走到这一步的呢？

How did I get here?

我在医疗器械和诊断领域有大约二十年的经验。

I have about twenty years of experience in the medical device and diagnostics space.

我觉得赛默飞喜欢让管理层接触不同的业务板块。

And, you know, I think that Thermo Fisher likes to expose their leaders to different businesses.

你说得对。

You got it right.

我们公司规模大，业务多样，就是为了拓宽领导者的经验。

We're a big company with a lot of different businesses just to broaden your leadership experience.

所以这实际上是我加入赛默飞后领导的第二个业务板块。

And so this is actually the second business that I've led at Thermo Fisher.

现在能参与到移植领域，我感到非常欣慰和幸运。

And I'm just really happy and fortunate to be part of the transplant community now.

这个领域真的很特别，目标明确，始终以患者为中心。

It's a really special community, very mission driven, and very patient centric.

这个背景确实很有帮助。

It's a really helpful background.

我觉得，正如你提到的，赛默飞的规模确实很大。

I think, yeah, like you highlighted how large Thermo Fisher is.

在准备这次访谈的过程中，能更深入了解这个部门，对我们俩都很有启发。

I think it was insightful for both of us in in preparing for this interview to to learn about the division more.

我们很想多了解一下你目前的职责。

We'd love to hear a little bit more about your your current role.

Thermo Fisher 在移植领域具体扮演什么角色？您的工作在这个过程中又是怎样的？

What kind of place does Thermo Fisher take particularly in transplant, and how does your role within that play?

是的。

Yeah.

当然，阿温德。

Sure, Arvind.

在Thermo Fisher，说到移植，其实涉及多个方面。

So we in Thermo Fisher, transplant really means one thing, or I should say multiple things.

我们的核心业务是开发和推广体外诊断检测，帮助判断移植受者与潜在供体之间的组织相容性。

Our core business involves developing and commercializing in vitro diagnostic tests that help in determining compatibility between a transplant patient recipient and a potential donor.

目前大家都知道，人体内的HLA系统在相容性中起着关键作用，而我们的产品正是专注于HLA系统的检测，确保供体和受体之间的匹配。

It's well known, at this stage that the human leukocyte system, HLA system in your body plays a large role in compatibility and that's what we're our our products are really focused is looking at the HLA system and ensuring that there is a compatibility between the donor and the recipient.

我们还在推广一些新型检测方法，帮助临床医生更好地进行移植后的监测，及时调整治疗方案，实现更个性化的治疗。

We're also commercializing some novel assays that will help clinicians to better make decisions in terms of post transplant monitoring and allow them to intervene quicker in case the patient needs change in their therapy and also allow for more personalized treatment.

这非常令人振奋。

That's very exciting.

移植确实是医疗领域中最复杂的问题之一。

I mean, transplant is definitely one of the more complex aspects of healthcare.

你把别人的器官取出来，放进自己体内，这过程非常困难，障碍也很多。

You're taking an organ from someone else's body, putting it into your own, it's very challenging, lots of obstacles in a way.

要考虑的因素太多了，其中最重要的一个，就像你提到的，就是HLA。

There's so many factors to consider, with one of the major ones being HLA, as you mentioned.

确保移植的器官和你的免疫系统、身体本身是匹配的。

Make sure that the organ you're being transplanted with is compatible with your own immune system and your own body.

这么说就清楚多了。

So that makes a lot of sense.

我想了解一下，能再详细说说Thermo Fisher具体扮演什么角色吗？

I'm curious, could you go into a little bit more detail about how thermo what role Thermo Fisher actually plays?

你们显然在生产和提供这些工具和方案。

You obviously manufacture these tools and offerings.

你们是把这些产品卖给医院吗？

Do you sell them to hospitals?

你们是把这些产品卖给移植机构吗？

Do you sell them to the transplant organizations?

这个系统是怎么运作的？Thermo Fisher 在日常工作中扮演什么角色？

How does that system function and what role does Thermo Fisher play on a day to day basis?

是的，没错。

Yeah, absolutely.

对，完全正确。

So, yes, absolutely.

我们主要卖给医院和HLA实验室，很多医院都有专门的HLA实验室来做这些检测并分析结果，他们就是我们的主要客户。

We sell to hospitals, we sell to HLA labs, so a lot of hospitals have specific HLA labs that look at these tests and analyze the results, and those are our main customers.

我们的工作是为实验室提供这些工具。

And what we do is we provide our tools to the lab.

实验室的负责人和工作人员每天都会用到这些工具。

And a lot of the lab directors and their staff use use these tools every day.

我觉得这非常关键，而且过去四十年来，它一直在不断改进。

And I think it's something that's very critical and it's something that really evolved over time, over the last, say, forty years.

我觉得这一路走来变化很大，我们全程参与其中，推动了移植配型这一关键环节的革新，大大提升了找到理想匹配的几率。

And I think that's it's come a long way and we were part of that story and really were part of the innovation that revolutionized this compatibility, the matching piece of the puzzle for transplantation and really improved that ability to get a good match.

所以，这就是我们的工作内容。

So, yeah, that's what we do.

当然，还有临床医生。

And there's also the clinician, of course.

对吧？

Right?

开检测单的医生必须参与进来，尤其是那些非常规的新检测项目。

The clinician who has to prescribe the test has to be involved, especially for some of these novel tests that aren't routine.

在移植过程中，他们需要查看数据，亲自尝试这些方法。

As part of transplantation, they need to see the data, they need to try it out themselves.

因此，我们的一些新型检测方法特别针对他们，注重教育和推广。

And so some of our assays are more novel assays are, geared toward them in terms of education and adoption.

这些检测方法都是赛默飞自主研发的。

And and these are assays that, you know, Thermo Fisher develops.

Thermo Fisher 在移植领域已经深耕很久了。

Thermo Fisher has been doing transplant for for a long time.

说到现在，尤其是《医疗创新播客》最常聊的话题——AI 如何融入这些检测，作为这个领域的领先者，你们当初是怎么开始引入这种技术的？

And when you think about the now, at least the Medical Innovation Podcast favorite topic, the integration of AI within these assays, how did you how did that that initially come about, you know, already being a dominant player in this field and then integrating this kind of technology?

最开始的愿景是什么？后来又发生了哪些变化？

What was the vision initially, and how has that evolved?

我觉得在移植领域，AI 的应用其实还处于早期阶段。

So I think it's actually still pretty nascent in the transplant space.

我们已经开始看到 AI 被整合进工作流程和产品中，就像你提到的那样。

We're starting to see AI incorporated in workflows and in products, as you mentioned.

但说实话，我们确实在推进，只是没其他领域那么快。

But I would say we're a little bit I would say, you know, we're progressing, but not as fast as some other areas.

这主要是因为移植事关重大，结果容不得半点差错。

And it's really because of the criticality of of the transplantation and the results.

对吧？

Right?

你从检测中得到的结果。

The results of what you get from the test.

就像任何需要严格验证、临床验证的技术一样，只要它会影响临床结果，推广速度就会慢一些。不过，我们看到像我们这样的公司正在推出越来越多支持人工智能的新技术。

And just like anything else that requires really strict validation, clinical validation, etcetera, in a that that that impacts the clinical result, The adoption, I think, is gonna be a bit slower, but we are seeing companies like ourselves come out with a lot of new AI enabled technologies.

如果你想想看，你们对人工智能应该很熟悉——每当需要处理大量数据或信息，并快速深入分析时，人工智能就能发挥巨大作用，帮助简化流程，提升预测能力。

And if you think about it, I think you guys are very well versed in AI, when you anytime you need large datasets or large piece you know, pieces of information to analyze them, you know, well and analyze them quickly, that's where AI can really come in to help streamline things and help even be more predictive.

我认为人工智能在移植领域的角色，就是把海量数据提炼成更易理解、更可预测的信息，帮助我们的客户综合考虑各种因素——就像你提到的那些复杂变量，从而更准确地判断患者是否会有良好的预后。

And that's where I see the role of AI in in transplantation is just taking that data and culling it down to something that's more digestible and or is more predictable can help help our customers look at different factors, as you said, the multiple factors that are involved and better predict if the patient's gonna have a good outcome or not.

这说得通。

That that makes sense.

整个医疗行业都充斥着大量数据，移植领域也不例外。

There's a lot of data in health care as a whole, but specifically in transplant as well.

我知道你们正试图更进一步，比如通过表位水平筛查来优化HLA配型。

I know you're trying to go even deeper, for example, use epitope level screening to adjust HLA.

你们做的事情非常复杂，但我先想请你们退一步说说，目前移植行业面临的最大挑战是什么？人工智能现在或未来五到十年内，最有可能解决哪些问题？

There's a lot of complexity in what you're doing, but I'd love to take a step back first and ask you, what do you think are the most prominent challenges or obstacles that face the Transplant industry right now that AI is working to solve right now or potentially solve in the next, you know, five, ten years?

对我来说，我主要考虑的是配型不准确、配型过程的复杂性，以及人员配置的需求。

For me, what what I think about, I think about, you know, inaccurate matching, the complexity of the matching process, staffing needs.

不过我很想听听你的看法。

But love to hear your input.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Absolutely.

这跟我们泰默费雪做的配型工作直接相关。

Directly related to what we do in at Thermo Fisher, the matching piece.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这块其实已经挺成熟了，客户们做得也不错，但肯定还有提升空间。

I think it's actually pretty well characterized and our customers do it pretty well, but there always can be improvements.

有一些患者属于高度致敏类型，我们的客户可能不太敢确定地说：‘这个配型不错，我们可以放心推荐。’他们需要更可靠的工具来增强信心。

There are patients who are, as we say, highly sensitized that our customers may not feel comfortable, you know, saying, okay, this is a good match where we could provide them with better tools to say with confidence, okay, I feel confident in recommending this as a match.

这时候，AI就能派上用场了——通过分析大量患者的历史数据，判断以往哪些配型成功、哪些失败，从而预测未来的最佳匹配方案。

And so that's where we can see AI being able to take large datasets of patients and predict based on past, you know, past history of of all these matches that are done, which ones had been successful and which ones weren't, and apply that to to the future.

这是其中一个应用场景。

So that's one application.

另一个我觉得特别相关的应用，是关于移植后的管理。

The other application I see, which is really relevant, is related to post transplant.

移植后，器官进入体内，患者就得一辈子服用免疫抑制药物，防止排异反应，但这里存在一个很大的临床需求缺口。

And there's a big clinical unmet need there where after the transplant is in the transplanted organ is in your body, you basically have to live the rest of your life taking immunosuppression drugs to ensure that you don't reject the organ.

医生总是面临一个难题：如何在器官排异的风险和免疫药物副作用之间找到平衡。

And clinicians are always faced with a challenge of how to balance the, you know, the chance of organ rejection versus the side effects of the immunosuppression drugs.

患者需要服用多种药物，其中一些对身体的负担非常大。

So there are a lot of drugs that you have to take, and some of them are very hard on the body.

有些患者甚至可能因此患上癌症。

Patients can develop cancer.

他们还可能感染，或者患上其他各种疾病。

They can develop infections and all sorts of other sicknesses.

所以这始终是个微妙的平衡问题：到底该给病人用多少药，才不至于过量。

So it's always this kind of fine line between how much should I give this patient in terms of the drugs versus not.

我觉得，采用更个性化的方案可能会有帮助。

And I think there could be a role for a more personalized approach.

目前我们几乎没有可靠的依据，只能靠医生的经验和病人的过往病史来判断。

Right now there's not really any good way of understanding except based on experience and maybe some patient history.

这个病人该多用点还是少用点免疫抑制剂？

Should I give this patient more or less, of those immunosuppression drugs?

如果我们能用人工智能做出更精准的预测，就能帮医生更好地调整免疫抑制方案。

So if we can use AI to be more predictive in that sense, it could even help the physician to titrate the the immunosuppression regimen better.

这样一来，很多病人或许根本不需要现在这么全面的用药方案。

And therefore, you know, a lot of these patients may not need the whole entire regimen they're getting today.

对。

Yeah.

这个想法真的非常好。

It's a it's a really good good call.

在医学院的时候，我们学移植手术时，最关注的就是它的益处，还有那些预防性用药有多复杂，以及你得时刻留意各种副作用。

I mean, in in medical school, that's one of the big things we learn with with transplant is, of course, the benefit, but also how complex that transplant medication, like, that prophylaxis is, and you're always monitoring for those those side effects.

我觉得你说得对，有了人工智能，我们能获取更多数据支持。

And I think overall, you know, that point that you made that with AI, we're able to get much more input.

对吧？

Right?

你手头已经有完整的病历了，完全可以用这些信息来优化治疗，实现更精准的个性化护理，这想法特别有意思。

Like, you have this entire patient chart already, we should be able to utilize that to leverage and actually personalize care much better is a is a really interesting is a really interesting case.

你提到热力学公司在这方面的参与，确实说得很到位。

And I I you made a you made a really good point, at least, in discussing what Thermo Fisher is involved with here.

你们做诊断是一方面，但更让我感兴趣的是，你们还在思考如何超越实验室，不只是帮医生匹配供体，还能在移植后的阶段提供支持。

You know, you you do the diagnostics, but then also I find it interesting you're also thinking about what are ways that we can contribute beyond the lab, beyond, like, directly to the clinician on the matching space, but then also on this other side of post transplant.

你有没有想过，热力学公司未来能不能贯穿整个移植流程，从术前到术后全程参与？

Is this something, like, a like, a direction that you you see, like, Thermo Fisher go and just, like, being able to be involved in that transplant process throughout the whole pipeline, even in that post transplant period?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

伊文，你说得对。

Irvin, you got it.

所以我们希望在整个移植过程中更好地服务客户，把各个环节串联起来。

So, yeah, we wanna be more relevant to our customers along the entire transplant journey and to connect the dots, so to speak.

正如你所说，我们正在考虑开发一些工具、软件，尤其是基于人工智能的系统，来帮助医生和患者在治疗过程中做出更明智的决策。

And so to your point, you know, some of the things we're looking at are can we develop tools, software, AI enabled software, etcetera, to help help that inform or inform those decisions along the patient journey.

比如，把患者的病史、基因信息、过往检测结果，还有我们提供的检测数据全都整合在一起。

So if we could take the patient history, their genetic profile, the results of past tests, the results of our tests, so on and so forth.

把这些信息综合起来，会非常有力量。

Put that all together, that could be very powerful.

如果你们正朝这个方向走，未来有没有计划直接向医生或患者提供某种服务？

If you're moving in that direction, do you envision a sort of direct to provider or direct to patient service offering in the near future?

比如一个门户，医生可以上传患者的资料，获得关于免疫抑制剂使用剂量或类型，以及其他与患者护理相关建议的反馈。

You know, a portal where providers can upload data about their patients and get feedback or suggestions about the level or type of immunosuppression to provide or other details that may be relevant to the patient's care they're caring for.

是的。

Yeah.

对，普拉纳夫。

Yeah, Pranav.

你说得一点都没错。

I think that's exactly it.

对吧？

Right?

正如你所说，如果临床医生能登录一个门户，看到患者所有数据整合在一起，把它当作一个工具来辅助判断，那就太好了。

So to your point, it would be great if a clinician could enter a portal, see all the patient data altogether, and use that as, you know, one tool to help them make their assessment.

不管是用我们的系统还是他们的，这个以后再定。

And, you know, whether it's ours or theirs, that's to be sorted out.

我觉得你刚提到的，正是这种构想面临的一些挑战：如何让各方就使用哪个平台达成一致，还有数据隐私的问题，以及不同中心之间的数据怎么协调。

I think you just hit on some of the challenges that I see in in a vision like this is getting all of the parties to agree on what platform and, you know, there's issues with data privacy and, you know, one center's data versus another center's.

他们愿意为更大的患者群体共享数据，还是希望数据留在自己的系统里？

Are they willing to share data for a bigger patient population or they want it secured to their system?

就连我们作为第三方，也很关心怎么保护患者的隐私和信息安全。

And even just us as a third party involved, you know, concerned around how are we gonna protect patients' information and and the privacy.

还有很多不确定的地方，需要慢慢理清楚。

So there's a lot of still TBD things that need to be ironed out.

对。

Yeah.

我特别期待面向患者那部分的应用，这样能更精准地个性化治疗。

And and I I really am excited by that patient facing side in terms of the applications that we'll be able to personalize care even better.

至少从医生的角度看，我们看到的一大突破就是AI在提升效率方面的作用，比如病历记录。

At least on the clinician side, I think one of the big booms that we've seen has been the efficiency gains with AI in terms of, you know, things like documentation.

对吧？

Right?

现在AI自动生成病历已经非常普遍了。

Like, AI scribing is is super dominant now.

有随机对照试验表明，这些工具确实能节省时间。

There are randomized control trials that demonstrate that they're saving time.

它们甚至能通过提升效率带来收入增长，而这些效率提升并不一定直接关联到患者护理。

They're raising revenue just from efficiency gains that aren't even necessarily related to direct patient care.

更多的是帮助优化流程，让相关人员能更专注于核心任务。

It's more so, like, enabling processes that allow folks to focus on the main thing at at hand.

所以我很好奇，至少在实验室层面，或者在临床层面，当你们考虑整合人工智能时，我知道Thermo Fisher也一直在和英伟达、OpenAI这些公司合作，你们是怎么看待效率这块的？它又如何影响你们所接触的各个主体——无论是实验室、医生，还是患者？

So I'm so I'm curious, like, at least at the lab level or even at the clinician level, when you're thinking about the integration of AI, I know, Thermo you has also been working with NVIDIA and OpenAI and and these partnerships.

你们怎么看待效率这一块？它在你们与实验室、医生，甚至患者这些不同主体的合作中扮演什么角色？

How do you look at the efficiency piece, and how does that play into those various entities that you're you're interacting with, whether that be the lab, the clinician, or even the patient?

是的。

Yeah.

问得好。

Great question.

确实，我们看到人工智能在提升效率方面发挥着重要作用。

So, absolutely, we see a role for AI in driving efficiencies.

说来也有趣。

And it's funny.

几个月前我参加过一场医疗领域的AI峰会，认真听了好几场临床医生和医疗管理者们的讨论。

I actually I actually attended an AI summit for health care a few months ago and really listened to some discussion panels with clinicians, with health care administrators, etcetera.

现在很多医疗系统、医院和实验室人员都在采用AI，就是因为你刚才说的那些原因——把它融入日常工作，提高团队效率，更快地阅读文件、整合数据，还有分析临床试验数据，让整个流程更高效。

And we are seeing, a lot of health care systems, hospitals, lab staff, etcetera, adopt AI for that very reason that you just mentioned and incorporating it in their daily work to make their workforce more efficient, to read documents faster and synthesize the data, to, look at data in clinical trials and make them more efficient.

Thermo Fisher也想在这个方向发力，用AI帮我们的制药和生物制药客户优化临床试验流程。

That's where Thermo Fisher's trying to play as well to, use AI to kinda make that, clinical trial process more efficient for our pharma customers and biopharma customers.

确实如此。

So yeah.

AI在这里面的作用非常大，而且前景明确。

So there's definitely a role, a big role for AI there.

我觉得AI在非面向患者的环节落地会更快，因为涉及临床结果的患者端应用，要被广泛接受还得花更长时间，原因就在这儿。

And I actually see that being adopted more quickly than the patient facing side because of the fact that the patient facing piece with the clinical result, I think will take longer with AI to be adopted just because it's just that.

对吧？

Right?

这会影响病人的治疗，医生得看到大量数据，并且信任这些数据，才会点头说行。

It'll affect the patient's treatment and I think clinicians will have to see a lot of data and trust the data in order for them to say, okay.

我会把这当作另一个参考依据，来辅助我的治疗决策。

I'm gonna use this as another data point to make my treatment decisions.

你说得对，要让医生信任确实很难，尤其是做移植手术时，对准确性和特异性要求特别高。

And that's a really good point in that getting clinician trust is already very hard and especially when it comes transplant you need, you know, a very high level of accuracy and specificity.

所以我很好奇，其中一个障碍可能跟偏见有关。

So I'm curious, I think one of the barriers there is sort of the bias angle.

就拿移植来说，哪怕只是计算肾功能，非洲裔美国人往往处于劣势，因为他们经常被排在移植名单靠后的位置——这些公式大多是基于白人数据设计的，没考虑到更多元的群体。

Even in transplant as a whole, if you think about certain calculations that are done for kidney function even, African Americans are always disadvantaged there, they're often placed lower on the transclass list because these form these formulas are made for Caucasians, so they're not really tailored for more diverse patients.

我想知道，你们在开发这些越来越贴近患者和医生的应用时，是怎么考虑减少偏见、确保公平性的？

I'm curious how are you thinking about reducing bias and sort of ensuring fairness as you start to think about developing types of applications and getting more directly patient and clinician facing?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的问题。

That's that's a great question.

如果我们能提供一些工具，让更多的患者群体受益，让结果适用于更广泛的人群，

I think if we can provide tools that allow for more patient populations and for results that apply to more patient pools.

那就能在某种程度上促进医疗公平了。

That's how we can offer more kind of health equity in that sense.

你说得完全对。

And you're absolutely right.

过去确实存在过一些偏见。

There there have been biases in the past.

所以我们需要提供这样的工具，而人工智能在这方面确实能帮上忙。

And so there's that piece where we would provide the tools, and AI could certainly help in that regard.

但算法要能发挥作用，终究还是得有数据，对吧？

But you need you need the data, right, for the algorithms to to to interpret.

这就需要很多不同医院、接触不同患者群体的机构，共享他们的数据，或者至少共享汇总后的数据，才能让结果更有参考价值。

And so then it requires, you know, a lot of potentially a lot of centers with that see different patient populations to share their data or to at least share aggregate data, in order for for it to be informative.

所以我觉得是有希望的，但说到底，还是得靠大量的合作。

So I think there's a possibility, but, you know, again, lots lots of collaboration needs to be had.

而且，确实，我认为在那之外，还必须正视这些偏见，也要有意愿去努力解决它们。

And, yeah, I think I think on top of that, it's has to be there has to be a acknowledgment of biases, right, and a willingness then to try to address them as well.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这一点说得很好。

So it's a good point.

你还提到，要特别关注健康公平，确保患者能够获得治疗，尤其是在移植这种高度复杂的医疗情况下。

And, you know, you mentioned, you know, being really focused on on health equity and ensuring that the patients get access to to care, especially when we have this kind of super high complexity of care with with transplant.

这有时候确实挺难的。

That can be difficult sometimes.

所以我们常常担心，技术创新可能会让某些群体受益更多，反而拉大差距，让不平等变得更严重。

So, you know, we sometimes worry with innovation, with tech, that a lot of these things disproportionately benefit certain populations, and there can be a concern that there might be a gap that may be widened by these by these by these innovations.

因此，当我们看到某些技术或创新真的能缓解这个问题，真正推动健康公平时，我觉得这才是值得大力发展的方向。

And so when we see technology or any kind of innovation that actually seems to mitigate that and actually contribute to health equity concerns, I think that's a really exciting direction to go with with innovation.

我知道在谈移植的时候，我们也稍微聊到了监测的问题。

I know when we're talking about in in transplant, we talked a little bit about monitoring too.

其中一种方式就是居家检测。

One of those things can be like home testing.

对吧？

Right?

根据我们的一些了解，现在出现了新的检测方法。

So, like, new types of assays from some of our reading.

我知道赛默飞现在正专注于一些无创检测手段，比如通过尿液检测CXCL10，这种检测可以在家完成。

I know Thermo is is is focusing now on some noninvasive measures, looking at CXCL10 as a urine test, which can be done at home.

我们很想听听，赛默飞还有哪些具体的技术创新，是在解决健康公平问题，让移植治疗变得更易获得？

We'd love to hear more about, like, what are some of the other specific innovations that that Thermo has been focused on that are addressing this concern of of health equity and making transplant care more accessible?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

你说得对。

You got it right.

我们有CXCL10生物标志物检测，正是这样一种方式。

So we have our CXCL10 biomarker test, and that is exactly that.

这是无创的。

It's non invasive.

通过尿液检测就行。

It's a urinary test.

而且成本很低。

It's also very affordable.

患者可以更频繁地做检测，就像你提到的，甚至在家或者偏远地区也能完成。

So, you know, the patient can be tested more often and as you said, you know, could potentially be tested in a remote setting at their in their home, etcetera.

很多患者因为离诊所太远，就错过了随访。

As you know, a lot of patients are lost in the follow-up for because they live far from the clinic and potentially won't come for their follow-up.

提供一种方便又实惠的方案，我觉得真的能带来很大改变。

So being able to provide something that is convenient and that is affordable, I think could really make a difference.

这也是临床医生给我们反馈的意见。

That's the feedback that we've gotten from clinicians as well.

除了CXCL10之外，我们还在研究其他更敏感、更特异的生物标志物，这些标志物可以在CXCL10升高时作为后续检测手段，而且同样基于尿液，也很方便。

Beyond CXCL10, we're also looking at other biomarkers that are more sensitive, more specific, and could be used, potentially as a reflex tool if you see something elevated in CXCL10, and, also also urine based, so, you know, also convenient.

当你在考虑这些无创的神经技术来检测或预测免疫反应时，你是怎么看待这个问题的？

When you think about these noninvasive neurotechnologies to try to detect immune responses or predict immune response before they actually happen, how do you think how do you think about that?

你们只是在寻找一般的免疫反应信号吗？

Like, are you looking just for any broad immune response?

还是想找出针对特定类型反应的特异性标志物或指标？

Are you trying to find specific markers, specific indications for specific types of responses?

那么在短期、长期，或者反应程度上，你们有没有优先考虑某些特定方向？

So are there specific places you're trying to prioritize in terms of, you know, short term, long term, or level of response?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好问题。

Great question.

通常来说，医生在移植后最关注的就是有没有排斥迹象，并根据排斥风险来调整用药。

So typically, the thing that clinicians look for or try to achieve post transplant is to, you know, look for signs of rejection and, you know, titrate the the the medication based on the likelihood of rejection.

目标就是防止排斥反应。

You just wanna prevent the rejection.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果能提前发现一些亚临床的信号，就像你提到的，那就太好了。因为现在有些传统方法，比如肾移植里常用的血肌酐检测，等它升高时往往已经晚了。

And so anything that can give the clinician an earlier sign, as you said, or signs of subclinical, you know, signals, that's great because right now, you know, some of the traditional tools, for instance, in kidney, some of the traditional tools like serum creatinine, if you measure that, it's kind of a little bit too late.

它是个滞后指标。

It's a, like, a late marker.

如果能在排斥发生前，更早地察觉到炎症迹象，那就更有优势了。

So if you can kind of see if there's inflammation, for instance, earlier and in in the in the process or in the kind of the process to rejection, better.

对吧？

Right?

但正如你所说，关键问题是：好吧，

So the question though is to your point, it's like, okay.

如果你发现有炎症，这代表什么？

If you see inflammation, what does that mean?

是意味着会发生排斥，还是由其他原因引起的？又该怎么处理？

Does it mean something's gonna happen or is it caused by something else and what do you do with it?

我觉得这方面还在发展中，比如看到这样的信号，到底意味着什么，该采取什么措施，都还不明确。

So I think it's still it's still it's an area that's still developing in terms of, okay, when I see this signal, what what does it mean and what do I do?

但至少它表明身体出现了异常情况。

But at least it's signaling there's something abnormal.

对吧？

Right?

这时候我该增加监测频率，还是继续维持当前的免疫抑制方案？

And I should monitor more frequently or keep this patient on the same immunosuppression regimen or or not.

这正是我们看到的临床医生使用这些工具的方式。

And that's how we're seeing clinicians use these tools.

还有，Tina，我也想退一步说点别的。

And and Tina, I wanna take a step back as well.

你看，Thermo的移植部门做了这么多工作，那些复杂的检测方法，还有你们为实验室、医生甚至患者提供的优质服务，真的让人印象深刻——这居然只是公司里一个部门，却在这么一个领域产生了这么大的影响。

Like, in terms of, you know, the work that's been done in the transplant division at Thermo, like, in terms of, like, these really complex assays and the incredible services you're offering to both to the lab, to the clinician, even to the patient, it's it's really impressive to think that this is one division within an entire company that's making such an impact in this one place.

我们之前也接触过各种规模的公司，从微软这样的大科技公司，到一些还处于早期阶段的小型初创企业。

You know, we've talked to a wide range of of folks in in in different different sized companies, you know, from, like, big, like, tech companies like Microsoft to smaller start ups that are much more early stage.

我很好奇，你在Thermo这样的大公司里，负责这样一个影响广泛但又高度专业化的业务板块，体验是什么样的？毕竟你们这个部门的影响力覆盖了多个领域，但具体的工作又非常聚焦。

I am curious to hear what it what your experience has been like at Thermo on that side when you're part of this business that's, like, pretty large in terms of the impact it makes across various domains and then being responsible for, you know, very specific but also still a pretty broad domain itself.

所以，我们特别想听听，作为一家成熟大公司里一个规模庞大的部门的负责人，你是怎么看待这个角色的？

So we'd love to hear about what does that what does that perspective be what is that perspective like leading such a large division within an already, you know, very established company as well?

谢谢你问这个问题。

Oh, thank you for asking this question.

其实，说出来你可能不信，我们是Thermo Fisher里最小的部门之一。

Actually, it's one of the smallest divisions within Thermo Fisher, believe it or not.

但正如你所说，我们在移植领域有着非常悠久的历史，事实上已经四十多年了。

But we have a very long heritage in the transplant space, to your point, and over forty years, in fact.

我们一些用于HLA配型的技术，几乎已经成为行业金标准或常规流程，这些技术其实都是几十年前逐步发展起来的。

So some of our technologies that are almost, I would say, gold standard or, you know, standard protocol for the HLA matching piece were developed over time, you know, and and really almost 40 ago.

要把它打磨完善，花了挺长时间。

And it took time to kind of perfect it.

虽然还达不到百分之百完美，但我们的单抗原检测产品非常可靠。

It's still not perfect in the sense that, you know, we can't be a 100% perfect, but, it's it's very solid, our lab screen single antigen b product.

正因如此，我们能以这项技术为基础赢得客户的信任，他们也因此更愿意尝试我们其他的创新技术。

And so, you know, I think I think we're able to, use that as a foundation for gaining trust from our customer base, and then, therefore, they're willing to try other technologies that we have as well.

这很合理。

That that makes sense.

我觉得Thermo Fisher的移植事业部，其实是大约十五年前收购了Lambda之后才真正起步的。

And I think Thermo Fisher's Transplant Division really got its start when you bought one Lambda about fifteen years ago or so fourteen, fifteen years ago.

当然，现在市面上还有很多初创公司。

Obviously, there's still a lot of startups out there.

正如阿尔文提到的，它们在AI和传统科学领域都做出了很多前沿的探索。

As Arvin mentioned, there's they're doing such innovative things with AI, but also with traditional science even.

我很好奇，有没有哪些看起来很有前景的？

I'm curious, are there any that look promising?

你们还在持续关注吗？

Are you still on the lookout?

你们愿意收购一些移植领域的新公司吗？这样能丰富你们的产品线，也让解决方案更贴近医生和患者的需求。

Are you open to acquiring sort of new players in transplant space that could help bolster your offerings or get to get the solution we talked about about being more clinician facing, more patient facing?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们一直欢迎有潜力的公司加入，这样能进一步提升我们的技术能力。

So we're always open to interesting companies joining us so that we can so we can expand our capabilities.

从创新角度来看，我们自己的研发团队也在做不少事情。

And, you know, we do a number of things from an innovation standpoint organically with our own r and d team.

他们的表现非常出色。

They're phenomenal.

其中很多是One Lambda的创始元老。

A lot of them are some of the founding members and original members of One Lambda.

几十年过去了，他们还在这里，这本身就说明了很多问题。

They're still here after decades, which I think says something.

同时，我们也愿意收购一些在我们不太熟悉的领域做得很有趣的企业，或者寻求合作。

But as well, we we are open to, you know, either having buying in companies that are doing interesting things that we're we're not as well versed in and or looking at partnerships.

最近我们做了不少合作，不少创新检测项目都来自这些合作。

So we've done a lot of partnerships lately, and some of our novel assays come from from these partnerships.

在移植领域，企业特别倾向于合作，因为移植市场的规模其实比较有限。

And you see that a lot in the transplant space is companies that want to partner because the transplant market, so to speak, is actually smaller.

对吧？

Right?

不是每个人都需要移植。

Not everybody needs to get a transplant.

所以，相比肿瘤这类大得多的市场，移植市场的实际规模要小得多。

So, you know, the the actual market itself is small versus, say, something like oncology, which is much bigger.

所以你在移植领域看到很多公司都在互相合作，以增强各自的能力。

So you see a lot of companies in the transplant space partnering with each other so they can augment their capabilities.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

你们内部能取得这样的成就，也真的很了不起。

And it's it's really impressive what you've been able to do in in house as well.

我觉得你们开发的所有检测方法，尤其是现在转向无创检测，确实非常出色。

And I think, you know, the theme of all the assays you've created, you know, now migrating to also the noninvasive testing, it's all really impressive work.

我想知道，未来几年，Thermo在移植领域有哪些特别让你期待的项目正在推进？

And, I'm curious, like, you know, going forward, in the next few years, what are some of those, things that are in the pipeline that, you're particularly excited for in the transplant space that that Thermo's building up?

是的。

Yeah.

我不能透露具体在研项目，但可以说，大方向跟我们刚才聊的那些差不多。

Also, I can't reveal what's in my pipeline or pipeline, but I can say just thematically, it's it's a lot of things we already discussed.

对吧？

Right?

正在开发一些比现有产品创伤更小的移植后监测技术。

Innovations for post transplant monitoring that are less invasive than what's on the market now.

很多都是借助人工智能的技术。

A lot of AI enabled technologies.

还有就是，没错。

And just even, yeah.

除了人工智能，软件本身对我们的客户也特别重要，尤其是用来分析我们检测产生的数据，或者以新的方式利用患者数据进行分析。

You know, other than AI enabled technologies, just software in general is really important in the space for our customers to do analysis when the, you know, data that our, assays produce and or trying to, you know, use patient data in a different way and analyzing it.

所以，好的软件真的非常关键。

So just having the good software, is is important.

我们一直在持续改进我们的检测方法和软件系统。

And so we're we're constantly innovating on our assays, our software.

当然，就像你之前提到的，我们也期待把人工智能融入我们的产品线中。

Also, of course, as you said earlier, looking forward to AI and incorporating it into into our portfolio.

这真的让人很期待。

That's really exciting.

我觉得这不仅适用于整个医疗行业，对移植领域来说尤其如此。

And I think this applies to health care as a whole, but more specifically transplant as well.

医疗行业显然受到严格监管。

Health care is obviously very regulated.

很多操作都受限，得经过FDA等机构的审批。

There's lots of restrictions in terms of what you can do, what approvals you need through the FDA, etc.

但在移植医学领域，这些限制更加突出。

But it's even more applicable for transplant medicine.

移植的实施方式有诸多限制，需求的满足也面临挑战。

There's a lot of restrictions in terms of how transplants can be provided, demand for it needs to be done.

我设想，这些限制同样适用于技术层面，尤其是当你想用新的AI工具来做配型或移植后的随访监测时。

I envision that also applies to the technology side as well as you look to apply these new AI tools for matching for post post transplant sort of follow-up or monitoring.

你觉得监管和这类障碍会如何影响你推进创新的能力？

How do you think about regulations and those types of hurdles that'll affect your able to ability to make progress or sort of innovate?

是的。

Yeah.

好问题。

Great question.

我觉得，正如你所说，监管方面确实是个大问题。

So I think that, to your point, the regulatory side is is a big one.

当然，你得满足检测产品上市所需的各项监管要求。

So you have to comply, of course, with any, regulatory, requirements just from the assay itself, right, to get it on market.

除此之外，如果引入了人工智能，还得应对那些新兴的监管规定。

And then on top of that, if you incorporate, AI, whatever emerging regulations there are.

所以在这方面，这很可能是个不小的障碍。

So it's it's it's likely gonna be a big hurdle in that sense.

我觉得其他一些障碍可能跟临床医生的接受度有关，比如他们如何信任AI的结果，又会怎么使用它。

I think some of the other hurdles that there might be are related to, you know, I think, again, like, clinician adoption, how do they trust how will they trust the AI result, and how will they use it?

他们会希望看到大量的临床数据和验证结果吗？

Are they going to wanna see a lot of clinical data, a lot of validation?

他们会希望参与这些工具的开发过程，从而更放心地使用吗？

Are they gonna wanna, you know, be part of the process of developing these tools so they can, you know, feel comfortable with it.

我觉得如果他们能参与进来，参与得越多越好。

I think if if if they can be involved, the more they can be involved, the better.

如果他们把AI看作辅助决策的工具，而不是替他们做决定，他们也会更安心。

And if they view it as a tool to help them with decision making rather than saying that it is the decision maker, I think that would make them feel comfortable as well.

所以，一方面有监管问题，一方面有医生信任问题，还有数据隐私这个问题。

So there's, I think, you know, the regulatory part, there's the clinician trust part, and then there's this, you know, I think there's also, you know, the, again, the data privacy part.

我们在收集和分析大量数据的时候，该怎么保护这些数据呢？

How are we gonna how are we gonna protect data as we're aggregating it and or analyzing vast amounts of data.

所有这些因素都得结合起来才行。

And, you know, so all of that has to come together.

制造商、医疗系统、监管机构和政策制定者之间，必须加强协作。

And then I think there needs to be a lot of collaboration between manufacturers like us, the health care system, any regulators, policymakers.

这些环节缺一不可。

It all has to come together.

我现在看到的情况是，就算不谈AI，光是想整合或管理患者数据、提升预测能力，就已经面临障碍了——哪怕在一个医疗系统内部，大家也不愿意共享数据，就怕隐私泄露。

And what I've seen is even right now, aside from the AI, when you're trying to deal with or trying to, you know, aggregate data or manage data, patient data to be more helpful in in predictability, and you you face hurdles already within just one health care system of, you know, I I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna share my data, right, because of concerns of privacy.

那我们该怎么克服这个问题，或者给他们一些能保障隐私的工具，让他们觉得安心呢？

So it's like, okay, how can we get over that or give give them tools that ensure that privacy so they feel comfortable?

确实如此。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

It makes a lot of sense.

蒂娜，我们快结束了，你一直以来在医疗领域有着非常出色的职业生涯，主导过许多家公司的重大项目。

And, Tina, as we as we wrap up here, you know, you've you've had a pretty decorated career in in health care, you know, leading some really impactful initiatives across many, many different companies.

我们的很多听众都是刚入行的年轻人，他们很想投身医疗科技行业，为整个行业带来改变。

A lot of our listeners are, you know, early stage folks that are really trying to get involved in in health health tech and make impact across the industry.

你经历过这么多，也以各种方式实现了这些目标，我们特别想听听，你对那些刚起步、希望有所作为的年轻人有什么建议？

As someone that's kind of, you know, gone through and and and done that in many different ways, we'd love to hear any advice that you might have for for early stage folks that are looking to to make impact here.

天哪。

Oh, gosh.

我不确定自己是不是提建议的合适人选，但我还是想说，坚持你的愿景。

I don't know if I'm the right person to ask for advice, but I would say, you know, keep on with your vision.

我接触过不少初创公司和创始人。

Everybody, you know, I've met early stage companies and founders.

他们对自己的技术能做什么有清晰的愿景，也有明确的理念。

They have a strong vision for what their technology does and a strong kind of thesis.

坚持这个方向，继续努力解决你真正想解决的问题。

Stay true to that and, you know, keep keep on on trying to solve for the problems you're trying to solve for.

然后，多跟我们这样的大公司聊聊。

And and then, you know, talk to talk to big companies like ours.

对吧？

Right?

他们可能愿意跟你合作，或者像你说的，收购也是个方向，看看他们真正关心什么。

They might have an ability to partner with you or, as you said, acquisition might be interesting and see what they care about.

对吧？

Right?

很多小公司都有很棒的愿景和创新技术，但缺的是如何把规模做起来。

I think a lot of a lot of small companies, they have that strong vision, interesting technology, but where they need help is to scale.

对吧？

Right?

他们可能没钱组建庞大的销售团队，甚至资金都不够完成一项临床研究，拿不出足够数据让大公司感兴趣。

They may not have the funds to have a huge sales force or even have enough funds to get through a clinical study to get enough data to be, you know, interesting to a company.

所以，找合作伙伴确实很好。

So, you know, partnering is great.

对吧？

Right?

如果你能和那些拥有资源、能帮你把创新成果放大的公司合作，那就太棒了。

If you're able to partner with a company that has those resources that help you scale your innovation, that's that's fantastic.

这建议真不错。

That's really great advice.

我觉得不管你是做检测工具、软件产品，还是直接面向患者做产品，搞医疗健康都很难。

I think building health care is hard regardless whether you're building an assay or some software product or doing something directly to patients even.

所以，找像赛默飞这样的现有大公司合作，利用他们成熟的布局和资源帮你成长，这个思路非常好。

So the idea of partnering and trying to find sort of synergies with existing players, like Thermo Fisher, for example, who have the established presence and the resources to help you grow it, a really good idea.

非常感谢你的建议。

Really appreciate that advice.

蒂娜，今天你还有什么想和我们听众分享的吗？关于你在赛默飞的工作，或者你最近特别感兴趣的方向？

Tina, is there anything else you would like to sort of discuss today or share with our audience about the work you're doing at Thermo or what you're excited about?

你问的问题都太棒了。

You know, think you've asked so many great questions.

我们一直在关注这个领域的发展，不管是器官移植运输，还是其他我们涉足的领域。

You know, I I would just say that we're constantly thinking of how the space is evolving, whether it's Transplant Transportation or any other space where we play.

我们始终努力走在前沿，确保我们的产品真正对客户有帮助。

And, you know, we're always trying to be at the forefront of of what we do and and be useful to our customers.

只要客户有需求，我们就会持续关注，想办法满足，也希望能推出一些有意思的技术来应对这些需求。

So as long as there's something that our customers need, we'll be on the lookout to try to meet those needs and and hopefully have interesting technologies to do that.

听起来很棒。

Sounds great.

蒂娜，非常感谢你。

Well, Tina, thank you so much.

很高兴你能来参加这次对话。

It's been great having you.

非常感谢你的分享，我对移植行业以及贵公司在其中的角色有了更深的了解。

Really appreciate your insights and definitely learned a lot more about the transplant industry and your company's role in it.

这次交流真是太棒了。

So it's a great conversation.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.