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嘿。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
如果你能直接瞬移到有史以来最受欢迎、最有趣的大学课程中，重新做回学生——无论你多大年纪，向全球顶尖的两位教授学习，那该有多酷？
How cool would it be if you could just teleport into one of the most popular and interesting college courses that's ever been taught, you know, be a student again, no matter your age, and learn from two of the top professors on the planet.
你知道吗？在我所有想修的斯坦福课程中，我最渴望修读的课程叫《设计你的人生》。
You know, one course that I've always dreamed about taking more than any other courses at Stanford, and it's called Designing Your Life.
事实上，当我在这里波士顿启动这个播客时——波士顿是全球高等教育的中心——我的愿景就是邀请世界知名的教授和专家来到波士顿，为你和我提供与全球顶尖大学最精彩课程和研究中所教授的完全相同的课程、收获与智慧。
In fact, when I started this podcast here in Boston, which is the world's home for higher education, That was my vision, to have world renowned professors and experts come here to Boston and give you and me the exact same lessons, takeaways, and wisdom being taught in the most incredible courses and research being done at the top universities on the planet.
今天，我非常兴奋地宣布，二十年前创建《设计你的人生》课程的两位斯坦福教授，此刻正来到我们在波士顿的演播室，为你传授他们最重要的生活智慧。
Well, today, I am so excited that the two Stanford professors who created the Design Your Life course twenty years ago are here in our Boston studios to teach you their greatest life lessons.
现在，他们会告诉你，真正的挑战并不是设计人生。
Now they're gonna tell you that the real challenge isn't designing a life.
而是设计一个更有意义和目标的人生。
It's designing your life so it has more meaning and purpose.
今天，你们将获得这些教授二十年来用来帮助人们掌控生活的经过验证的框架。
And today, you're gonna get the same proven frameworks that these professors have used for two decades to help people take charge of their lives.
他们将引导你们完成一个强大的练习，帮助你们在感到停滞、迷茫或不知所措时获得清晰的方向。
They're gonna walk you through a powerful exercise that's gonna give you clarity, especially when you feel stuck, uncertain, or overwhelmed.
听完这次对话后，你们将清楚地知道现在什么能为你们带来更多的意义。
You will leave this conversation with a crystal clear idea of what will bring you more meaning right now.
相信我，当我们进行这个练习时，你内心浮现的答案将会是一个完全出乎意料的惊喜。
And trust me when I tell you, what's gonna come up for you when we do this exercise is gonna be a total wild card.
现在还不晚。
It's not too late.
你可以找到让你快乐的工作。
You can find work that makes you happy.
你可以在生活中体验到更多的意义和满足感。
You can experience more meaning and fulfillment in your life.
通过你们即将学到的这个方法，实现这一切会比你想象的更容易。
And using the process you're about to learn, it will be easier than you think.
所以坐好，上课了。
So grab your seat because class is in session.
是时候设计你的人生了。
It's time to design your life.
嘿。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
我很高兴能在这里，也很高兴你也在。
I'm thrilled to be here, and I'm excited that you're here too.
能和你共度这段时光是我的荣幸，但我对即将发生的事感到无比兴奋。
It's such an honor to be together to spend this time with you, but I'm super excited about what's about to happen.
如果你是新听众，或者因为有人分享给你而来到这里，我想花一点时间亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭。
And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, I just wanna take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
我迫不及待想让你认识两位来自斯坦福大学的教授，他们现在就在我们的波士顿演播室，为你讲解如何设计你想要的人生。
I cannot wait for you to meet two professors from Stanford University who are here in our Boston studios to walk you through how you can design the life you want.
他们二十多年来教授全球最受欢迎课程所学到的教训，将彻底改变一切。
The lessons that they've learned from teaching one of the most popular courses in the world for more than two decades are gonna change everything.
戴夫·埃文斯和比尔·伯内特是斯坦福大学生活设计实验室的创始人。
Dave Evans and Bill Burnett are the founders of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University.
他们也是斯坦福大学《设计你的人生》课程的创建者，这门课已开设近二十年，如今已在超过600所大学开设。
They're also the creators of the Designing Your Life course at Stanford, which has been taught for almost twenty years and is now being taught at over 600 universities.
但在他们教授生活设计之前，几十年来，比尔和戴夫一直在硅谷的初创公司和财富100强企业中设计产品并带领团队。
But long before they were teaching life design, For decades, Bill and Dave, they were designing products and leading teams at startups and Fortune 100 companies across Silicon Valley.
比尔·伯内特在斯坦福大学获得了产品设计的学士和硕士学位。
Bill Burnett earned his bachelor's and master's degrees in product design at Stanford.
他在苹果公司早期工作，参与设计了他们的笔记本电脑。
He worked at Apple in the early days designing their laptops.
他还参与了原始版《星球大战》玩具人偶的设计团队。
He also worked on the team that designed the original Star Wars action figures.
如今，他是斯坦福大学机械工程与设计专业的教授。
Today, he's a professor in mechanical engineering and design at Stanford.
戴夫·埃文斯也在斯坦福大学获得了机械工程的学士和硕士学位。
Dave Evans also earned his bachelor's and master's degrees in mechanical engineering at Stanford.
他后来也加入了苹果公司。
He also went on to work for Apple.
当比尔在设计笔记本电脑时，戴夫正领导团队开发了苹果第一款计算机鼠标。
And while Bill was designing laptops, Dave was leading the team that created their very first computer mouse.
戴夫还是电子艺界（Electronic Arts）的联合创始人，这是全球最成功的游戏公司之一。
Dave was also the co founder of the video game company Electronic Arts, which is one of the most successful gaming companies in the world.
如果你熟悉《麦登》《FIFA》或《模拟人生》，那么你即将见到促成这一切的联合创始人。
If Madden, FIFA, or Sims ring a bell, well, you're about to meet the co founder who made it happen.
比尔和戴夫共同撰写了多本畅销书，包括《纽约时报》排名第一的畅销书《设计你的人生》以及他们最新的畅销巨作《如何过上有意义的人生》。
Together, Bill and Dave have authored multiple bestsellers, including the number one New York Times bestseller, Designing Your Life, and their latest blockbuster, How to Live a Meaningful Life.
那么，不多说了，请大家热烈欢迎比尔·伯内特教授和戴夫·埃文斯教授来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
So without further ado, please help me welcome Professor Bill Burnett and Professor Dave Evans to the Mel Robbins podcast.
谢谢你们邀请我们。
Thanks for having us.
我们非常高兴能来到这里。
We're thrilled to be here.
是的，这太棒了。
Yeah, this is fantastic.
自从我开始做这个节目以来，你们俩就一直在我最想邀请的名单上。
You two have been at the top of my list since I started this.
我一直在等待这一刻。
I have been waiting for this moment.
我希望你们别让我失望。
I hope you don't disappoint me.
不会的。
No.
你马上就会打来的。
Just gonna You're gonna call sooner.
我们其实很想早点来。
We wanna come sooner.
哦
Oh
天哪。
my gosh.
好的。
Okay.
我想从这里开始。
Here's where I wanna start.
如果我认真对待你们今天要与我们分享的一切，并将其应用到我的生活中，我的生活会有什么不同？
How will my life be different if I take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today and I apply it to my life?
你会变得更自由。
You're gonna get freer.
你会在生活中感受到更多的自主权。
You're gonna feel more agency in your life.
你会意识到自己其实知道如何找到方向，而且在前行的过程中，你每天都能创造意义。
You're gonna realize you actually know how to find your way, and as you go along it, you can make meaning every day.
每个人都太忙了，事情也太多了。
Everybody's so busy, and there's so much going on.
你会明白，重点不在于再塞进更多东西。
You're gonna learn that it's not about cramming more stuff yet.
而在于从你已有的和你能设计的东西中获得更多的价值。
It's about getting more out of what you've already got and what you can design for.
我认为这能帮助人们放松下来，明白他们可能已经拥有了足够的东西。
And I think that helps people just relax and understand that they probably have enough.
比尔，你认为你们的书籍和课程如此受欢迎的原因是什么？
Bill, what do you think it is about the popularity of both of your books and the course?
这种广泛的关注向你揭示了我们正在寻找什么？
What does all of this interest say to you about what we're searching for?
尤其是在学生中，我曾在斯坦福大学任教，也在各地教过课，现在已有超过600所学校开设这门课程。
Particularly amongst the students, and I've taught at Stanford and I've taught all over all over the place, we've got over 600 schools now teaching the class.
对于学生来说，这一点非常明确。
With the students, it's it's really it's really clear.
最近五六年甚至七年，社交媒体和其他因素让情况变得更糟了。
It's gotten kind of worse lately in the last five or six or seven years, social media and other things.
我会拥有美好的生活吗？
Will I have a good life?
我能在这行找到一份好工作吗？
Will I find a good job in it?
我想要意义和目标，但人们告诉我工作并没有目标感。
I want meaning and purpose, but people tell me jobs aren't purposeful.
盖洛普调查显示，70%的美国人对工作缺乏投入。
The Gallup poll says 70% of Americans are disengaged from their job.
这就是我要进入的世界吗？
Is that the world I'm going into?
情况会这么糟糕吗？
Is it going to be that bad?
因此，对学生来说，这种焦虑在于：我该如何开始？
And so for the students, it's that kind of anxiety about how do I get started?
在戴夫和我一起推出这个项目之前，我已经多年为学生提供办公时间了。
I had been in office hours for students for years and years and years before Dave and I put this together.
对我来说，很明显，设计世界上的新事物——因为我多年来一直在教设计师设计iPhone、iPad和网站等——其实就是设计你自己。
And it seemed clear to me that designing new thing in the world, because I've been teaching designers to design iPhones and iPads and websites and things for years, designing the new thing in the world was just like designing the you.
我未来会成为什么样的人？
What am I gonna be in my future?
所以每个人都有这个问题。
So everybody had that problem.
后来我们开始与一些中年人士合作，他们三四十岁，也在面临同样的疑问。
Then we started working with folks in some mid careers, 35, 45, and they're having the same question.
唉，这并没有我想象中那么酷，我已经对这份工作感到厌倦，或者需要转型了。
Gee, it isn't as much, wasn't as cool as I thought it would be, kind of done with this job or needs to pivot.
那现在怎么办？
Now what?
那现在怎么办？
Now what?
我很久没有想过这个问题了，也没有任何框架来思考它。
And I haven't thought about that in a long time and I don't have any framework for thinking about it.
我一直在和那些五十多岁、六十多岁退休的人，或者突然成为空巢老人的人合作。
And I've been doing work with folks who are retiring in their fifties, sixties, or folks that are suddenly empty nesters.
他们说：天啊，我整个生活都是围绕着孩子组织的，我和妻子现在成了空巢老人。
They're like, well, geez, I organized my whole life, my wife and I are empty nesters, organized my whole life around my kids.
现在只剩下我和我妻子。
And now it's just me and my wife.
我们甚至还认识彼此吗？
Like, do we even know each other?
我们还喜欢对方吗？
Do we like each other anymore?
我们接下来该做什么？
What are we going to do?
所以这个问题不断出现，它关乎的是：我的人生、我的未来会有意义吗？
So this question just keeps coming up and it's about, will my life, will my future be meaningful?
我能不能找到一些有目标的事情来做？
Can I find something to do that has got some purpose in it?
而实现这一点的很多结构，过去通常是这样的：你生活在一个社区里，大家都成长在同一个小镇，所以你知道自己在其中的位置，或者你有信仰团体、教堂之类的。
And a lot of the structures of that, it used to be, well, you had a community, everybody grew up in the same town and so you knew where you fit in, or maybe you had a faith community or a church or something.
很多这样的社区都已经消失了。
A lot of those communities have gone away.
现在存在着巨大的孤独感。
There's this huge loneliness.
人们真的感到孤立和孤独，而且变化如此之快，以至于他们都不知道该向哪里寻求帮助，甚至不知道如何开始。
People really feel isolated and lonely, and things are changing so fast, right, that they know where to turn for even a way to get started.
你在你排名第一的《纽约时报》畅销书《设计你的人生》中提到，设计人生的真正方式是设计你的人生。
You say in your number one New York Times bestselling book, Design Your Life, that the true way to design a life is to design your lives.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
我们经常说，我们每个人身上都蕴含着比一生所能展现的更多的生命力和更丰富的自我。
We say all the time, all of us contain more aliveness, more personhood, than one lifetime permits you to live out.
你体内有不止一个你。
There's more than one of you in there.
这正是为什么马斯洛关于通过实现来达成自我实现的理念是完全错误的，因为他早在1943年的论文中明确说，你要通过成为你能成为的一切来实现它。
Which is why, by the way, Maslow's idea about self actualization through fulfillment is dead wrong because he literally says on the 1943 paper, you achieve that by becoming all that one can be.
不对。
No.
你不可能成为你能成为的一切，因为你的潜力远超你这一生所能承载的范围。
You can't possibly be all that you can be because you're way bigger than your own lifetime.
你看。
Look.
我送别过很多人。
I buried plenty of people.
他们没有一个人是真正完成的。
None of them were done.
这才是好消息。
That's the good news.
哦，哇哦。
Oh, woah.
我想确保你没有忽略这一点。
I wanna make sure that that that you didn't miss it.
我们埋葬了很多优秀的人，而他们都没有完成自己的使命。
We've buried a lot of good people, and none of them were done.
是的。
Yeah.
我的年纪让我认识很多已故的亲近之人，他们离开时都还有一长串未完成的事。
I mean, I'm in a age where I know plenty of dead people closely, and they all left with a long to do list.
这是好消息。
That's the good news.
你远比你的一生更宏大，所以只要你保持关注，你根本不可能感到无聊或无事可做。
You're far bigger than your lifetime, so the chance of you being bored or running out of things is zero if you're paying attention.
对。
Right.
这是好消息。
That's the good news.
所以，设计你人生的最佳方式是认识到，不存在所谓‘正确的人生’，也没有唯一正确的活法。
So the best way to design your life is to recognize if there is no getting you right, There is no right life.
有很多美好的人生。
There are lots of good lives.
让我们去拥抱它们吧。
Let's go lean into them.
顺便说一句，你无法预知未来。
And by the way, you don't know the future.
你可能有一个好点子，但执行得不好。
You might have a good idea and implement it poorly.
你可能以为某个想法很好，结果却没成功。
You might have an idea you thought was good and didn't work out very well.
哎呀。
Whoops.
哦，我搞砸了。
Oh, I blew it.
不。
No.
我找到了前进的方式，我会继续走下去。
I learned my way forward, and I'm gonna keep going.
是的。
Yeah.
根本不可能做到完美。
There's no getting it right.
关键是开始行动。
There's just getting it going.
想象一下这种情况。
Imagine this.
我们在斯坦福有一台直线加速器。
We have this linear accelerator at Stanford.
它没有以前那么大了，因为我们现在有了更大的。
It's not as big as it used to be because we had bigger ones now.
就像说，这个已经很不错了。
Was like, this one's pretty good.
它还在运行。
It still runs.
我可以让你进入管道，把你加速到两英里长的加速器末端。
And I can put you in the tube and fire you to the end of the accelerators two miles long.
当你到达末端时，你的速度将达到光速的99.999%，那时你将体验到多重宇宙。
By the time you get to the end, you're going 99.999% the speed of light, at which point you will experience the multiverse.
你可以同时拥有无数条生命。
You can have as many lives as you want simultaneously.
你可以是宇航员、芭蕾舞者、全职妈妈，或者任何你想成为的人。
You could be the astronaut and the ballerina and the stay at home mom and whatever you want.
你会同时知晓所有宇宙的一切。
You'll know about all the universes at the same time.
然后我们说，我在三秒后数数，一、二、三，告诉我你想要多少条生命。
And then we ask the I said on the count of three, one, two, three, tell me how many lives you want.
我数一、二、三，人们给出的答案从一到无穷大都有，有人是个特别无聊、精疲力尽的家伙，有人则说无穷大。
I go one, two, three, and people go everywhere from one, it's a really bored, burned out guy, to- Infinity.
但平均下来是七条。
But on average, seven.
七到八条是普遍的范围。
Seven or eight is the area.
七到八条。
Seven or eight.
人们想要八条生命。
People want eight lives.
我就说，这正好证明了我们的理论。
And I go, well, that just proves our theory.
你体内不止有一条生命。
There's more than one life in you.
如果你能拥有所有这些生命，是不是很酷？
If you could have all those lives, wouldn't it be cool?
如果你身上有七条命的兴趣，却只得到一条命，那你的人格只实现了14%。
And if you have seven lives worth of interest in you and you get one life, you're going to be 14% of your personhood.
现在就是这样。
Right now.
哦。
Oh.
等你死的时候。
By the time you die.
等等。
Wait.
稍等一下。
Hold on a second.
是的。
Yeah.
等一下。
Hold on.
因为我想象一个世界，在这个世界里你的一生
Because I imagine a world where your one lifetime
是的。
Yeah.
可以包含七种不同的生活。
Could have seven different lives in it.
当然。
Sure.
这意味着你现在所处的位置，对吧。
Which means where you are right now Right.
在这个特定的章节里，对吧。
In this particular chapter Right.
只是你将经历的14%。
Is just 14% of what you will experience.
这也是真的。
That's also true.
这意味着，如果你改变心态，你就有机会
Which means you have the opportunity if you change your mindset
是的。
Yeah.
去真正设计接下来的14%阶段，无论你是从71岁到74岁，或者我也不知道你多大了，比尔。
To really design the next 14% section, whether it's from age 71 to 74 a day for I don't know how old you are, Bill.
但我年纪小一点。
But I little younger.
不会介意这个。
Won't hold that.
从第六天开始。
Starts on the sixth.
我们不会因此怪你。
We won't hold that against you.
但如果你真的这样想的话
But if you really think about it that way
对。
Right.
这意味着你可以创造出任何对你来说有意义的东西。
That means you could create whatever you wanted that was meaningful meaningful to you.
尤其是现在，我告诉我的学生们：你不希望五年、十年后你从事的是一份至今尚未被发明的工作吗？
Well, and particularly now, I tell my students, don't you hope five, ten years from now you're doing a job that hasn't been even been invented yet?
我的意思是，你真的愿意把自己局限在‘我只是个计算机科学家’或者‘我只是个经济学家’这样的身份里吗？
I mean, do you really wanna constrain yourself to I'm just gonna be this computer scientist or I'm just gonna be this economist or something?
因为首先，工作本身会改变。
Because first of all, jobs are gonna change.
记住，在人工智能时代，一切都会不同。
Remember, in the age of AI, everything's gonna be different.
你可以对此感到恐惧，也可以因此惊叹：哇。
And and you can look at that and be terrified, or you can look at that and go, wow.
会出现非常多的新事物。
There's gonna be so many new things that show up.
我只需要留意就行，看着这些工作消失又重现。
All I have to do is pay attention, you know, as these jobs disappear and reappear.
比如，很多年前我从斯坦福毕业时，那时候恐龙还在游荡，你知道的，白广场上，想当设计师必须学制图，用铅笔在绘图板上画。
Like, when I got out of Stanford long years ago when, you know, dinosaurs still roamed, you know, White Plaza, you had to learn drafting to be a designer, drafting on a drafting table with a with a pencil.
他在四十年里一直这么做。
He's done that in forty years.
而现在，我只需在手机上做点什么，然后用3D打印机打出来。
And now I can just do something on my phone and print it on a three d printer.
这太神奇了。
It's amazing.
所以，如果你保持成长型思维，保持好奇心，未来十年或十五年，工作、职业和可能性都会非常精彩。
And so if you stay in the growth mindset, if you stay curious, the next ten or fifteen years are gonna be amazing for jobs, for careers, for possibilities.
去
Get
你的
your
现在把船放进水里吧。
boat in the water now.
学一些人工智能。
Learn some AI.
弄清楚如何我认为人工智能可以成为创造力的复兴，因为每个人都将能够制作视频、绘画、做任何事、写一首歌。
Figure out how to I think sexing can be a renaissance in creativity because it'll be possible for everyone to do a video, to do a drawing, to do anything, to write a song.
这一代人感觉有点沮丧。
This generation feels a little bit despondent.
你知道，新闻里发生了太多事情。
You know, there's a lot of stuff going on in the news.
我认为这将是第一代人无法比他们的父母过得更好。
I think like this will be the first generation that doesn't have more than their parents.
这将是第一代买不起房子的人。
This will be the first generation that can't afford a home.
这是第一代年轻人不结婚，因为他们看不到未来。
This is the first gen the kids aren't getting married because they just don't see a, you know, they don't see a future.
我认为设计思维本质上是一种乐观的心态。
And I think the design mindset, it's an inherently optimistic mindset.
我们是乐观的，虽然我无法改变现状。
It's like, I can't make the We are optimistic.
但我可以做出一个更好的版本。
Design, but I can make a better one.
你知道，我可以做出一个比我现在拥有的更好的东西。
You know, I can make a better one than the one I've got.
你能对那些感到沮丧的二十多岁的人说点什么吗？这种情绪说实话是有道理的。
Could you speak to somebody in their twenties who is feeling that sense of discouragement, which frankly is justified?
是的。
Yeah.
考虑到生活成本上升和正在发生的变化，以及这些头条新闻，比如看。
Given some of the factual research about the cost of living and changes that are happening and the headlines like Look.
首先，如果你才二十岁。
First of all, if you're 20.
对。
Yes.
请记住以下这个事实来鼓舞自己。
Be encouraged by the following fact.
你的新皮层——也就是让你具备执行功能并能真正对他人产生共情的大脑部分——要到27岁或28岁才会发育完全，男性可能会更晚一些。
Your neocortex, which is the part of your brain that allows you to have an executive function and actually allows you to have full empathy for other people, isn't formed until 27 or '28, a little later in men.
这并不奇怪。
Big surprise there.
所以，如果你是20、21或22岁，你还没到那个阶段呢。
So if you're 20, 21, 22, you're not even here yet.
我们会提醒即将毕业的大学生：你并没有出问题。
We remind our graduating seniors, you're not broken.
你才22岁。
You're 22.
你22岁时的工作不是去弄清楚一切，因为那个或许有朝一日能弄清楚的你，还要六七年才会出现。
Your 22 year old job is not to figure it out because the you that's ever maybe even gonna have a shot at figuring out is six or eight years away from you.
所以，你20岁时的任务是为28岁的自己创造一些有趣的选择。
So your 20 year old self's job is to give your 28 year old self some interesting options.
但这并不意味着你得坐在父母家的沙发上，等着好事从天而降。
Now don't mean sitting on the couch at mom and dad's house and wait for something to land in your lap.
走出去。
Get out there.
开始生活。
Start living.
去做事。
Do things.
通过实践找到前进的方向。
Learn your way forward.
我们所有书中谈论的那些东西。
All that stuff we talk about in all our books.
但如果你才二十岁，事情会变得越来越有趣，所以别轻易放弃。
But if you're 20, it's gonna get more interesting, so don't give up yet.
从外部来看，我们所有人所处的宏观环境——比如我1976年大学毕业时所处的宏观环境，与现在五十年后的状况截然不同。
Now externally, the macro situation we're all living in I mean, macro situation I was living in in 1976 when I graduated college is pretty radically different from what's going on right now fifty years later.
人们感到无力是有充分理由的，因为掌握权力的人正在牢牢抓住权力，并且如今极其过分地行使它——这是我的个人观点。
People are feeling powerless for a good reason because people with power are hanging onto it and exercising it pretty egregiously right now, personal point of view.
话虽如此，好吧。
That being said, okay.
有一些系统比你更庞大。
There are systems that are bigger than you.
那么问题来了：你愿意花时间去改变这些系统吗？
The question then says, do you wanna spend your time working on those systems?
比尔有个儿子叫本，他目前正在国会工作。
Bill's got a son named Ben who's currently working, you know, in congress.
他会直接去应对这个问题。
He's gonna go directly after the problem.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道的。
You know?
我并没有直接去解决这个问题。
I'm not going directly after the problem.
与此同时，我正在写一些关于意义构建的书，为其他人提供帮助。
I'm writing books about meaning making for everybody else in the meantime.
我希望离开时，这个营地比来的时候更好一点。
I hope that leaves the campground a little better than I found it.
所以，找到你在现实约束下能做的事情。
So find what you can do within the constraints of reality.
也许这和你父母那一代不同。
Maybe it's different than your parents' generation.
谁在乎呢？
Who cares?
那是过去的事了。
That was then.
这是现在。
This is now.
你身处哪个世界？
What world are you in?
对你来说，什么是可能的？
What is available to you?
我们如何充分利用当下？
How can we make the most of what is?
不要抱怨不存在的东西。
Not complain about what isn't.
但我理解这很难。
But I get that it's hard.
这确实很难。
It is hard.
这很难。
It's hard.
我在我们的许多学生身上都看到了这一点。
And I see this in lots and lots of our students.
人们说，哦，Z世代不想努力工作，他们只想被宠着。
People say, oh, the Gen Zs don't wanna work hard, and they wanna be pampered.
我们认识的那些人不是这样的。
Not the ones we know.
我认识的那些人会去创业。
The ones I know, they'll do a startup.
如果他们相信某件事，他们会每周工作一百个小时。
They'll work a hundred hours a week if they believe in something.
因此，我对即将到来的一代以及已经步入社会的这一代非常乐观，他们会说：‘那我能做些什么呢？’
And so I'm I'm very optimistic about the generation coming up and the generation that's already out there and say, well, you know, what can I do?
很多人觉得自己根本不知道自己想要什么。
You know, a lot of people feel like they don't even know what they want.
但还有一项你闻名于世的练习，叫做人生蓝图计划。
But there's this other exercise that you are world famous for called the odyssey plan.
是的。
Yep.
对。
Yeah.
你能为听众简单介绍一下吗？
Can you just walk the listener through a little bit?
因为它能帮你看到自己内心其他可能的生活方式，从而更深入地过上有意义的人生。
Because it can help you see other lives in yourself and how to live a meaningful life to lean into.
所以我们知道，要获得最好的想法，必须先拥有更多想法。
So we know you have to have more ideas to get your best ideas.
如果你只执着于一个想法，就会被困在死胡同里。
And if you get stuck on the one idea, you're gonna get stuck in a corner.
因此，如果我们想要规划未来的各种可能性，就必须听取更多不同的声音。
So if we're gonna plan the future possibilities, we gotta hear from more than one of you.
三是一个有点神奇的数字，因为它真的给了你一些自由。
Three is kind of a magic number because it really gives you some freedom.
其中之一很可能就是你目前所过的生活。
And one of them is probably the life you're already in.
另一个是，如果你不能做那个，你还会做什么？
The other one is if you can't do that, what else would you do?
第三个是，如果钱不是问题，而且没人会笑话你，你会做什么？
And the third one, the wild card, if money were no object, you know, and nobody would laugh at you, what would you do?
这就是那个疯狂的选项。
That's the wild card.
也许我会开一家泰迪熊商店，或者开个徽章店，不管那个疯狂的想法是什么。
Well, maybe I would open the Beanie Baby store, or I'd start the button shop, whatever the crazy thing is.
我们让人提出疯狂想法的原因，并不是因为这个疯狂的想法是个好主意。
The reason we ask people to have a crazy idea is not because the crazy idea is a good idea.
而是因为我们希望训练你静默内心的批评声音。
It's because we need to train you to quiet the internal critic.
所以当一位54岁的女性说，我想着要不要回医学院读书时，
So as soon as you say, well, you know, the 54 year old woman says, I mean, I'm thinking about going back to medical school.
我一直以来都想去，
I always wanted to do that.
我觉得现在还不算晚，但朋友们都说我疯了。
I don't think it's too late, but my friends say I'm all crazy.
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
她的内心批评者正被所有朋友的内心批评者强化，觉得这太疯狂了。
So her internal critic is being encouraged by all of her friends' internal critic going, well, that's crazy.
你不可能做到的。
You can't do that.
这正是进化中让你免于被剑齿虎吃掉的那一部分。
And that's the part of evolution that keeps you from being eaten by the saber toothed tiger.
你知道的。
You know?
所以从进化角度看，你的大脑天生就带有一种负面偏见，以免你被吃掉。
So there's a negative bias built into your brain evolutionarily, lest you be eaten.
因此你必须学会如何克服那个批评的声音。
So you have to learn how to overcome that critic.
所以奥德赛计划帮助你想象生活不止一种可能，并训练你平息内心的批评声，从而找回你其他的想法。
So the Odyssey Plan helps you imagine there's more than one way you can live, and it helps train you to quiet your internal critic so you get the rest of your ideas back.
所以我想确认你真的理解了这一点。
So I wanna make sure that you really got that.
所以，你帮助自己想象的方式，是的。
So the way that you help yourself imagine Yep.
你生活中不同的可能性是通过奥德赛计划来实现的，你需要问自己三个问题。
Different possibilities in your life is through the odyssey planning, you ask yourself three questions.
对。
Right.
如果我什么都不改变，我的生活会怎样？
What happens in my life if I change absolutely nothing?
什么都没有？
Nothing?
五年后我会在哪里？
Where am I for five five years from now?
一切顺利。
It goes well.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，谢谢你这么说。
Oh, I I I thank you for that.
比如，我们就假设一切顺利。
Like, let's just assume it goes well.
我们就假设一切顺利。
Let's assume it goes well.
五年后会发生什么？
What happens in five years?
我的人生意义是什么？
What is my life for?
我是谁？
Who am I?
我是谁？
Who am I?
好吧。
Okay.
第二点是，这一切都会消失。
Second one is all of this disappears.
是的。
Yep.
做不到。
Can't do that.
做不到，但我得付账单。
Can't do that, but I gotta pay my bills.
你是个备选方案。
You a plan b.
是的。
Yep.
得有个备选方案。
Gotta have a plan b.
五年。
Five years.
我在做什么？
What am I doing?
是的。
Yep.
我在做什么？
What am I doing?
第三点是钱不是问题。
And the third is money's no object.
是的
Yep.
你随便吧
Whatever you want.
你随便吧
Whatever you want.
没人会笑的
Nobody's gonna laugh.
是的
Yep.
会顺利的
It's gonna work out.
是的
Yep.
你打算做什么？
What are you gonna do?
如果你做了这三件事，我们已经做过无数次了，我是说成千上万次。
If you do those three and we've done this with, I mean Tens of thousands.
成千上万的人，包括像我这样的人，都不会这么做。
Tens of thousands of people, including people like, I'm not doing this.
你懂的？
You know?
我们给他们十二分钟。
And we give them twelve minutes.
十二分钟。
Twelve minutes.
十二分钟，有时十五分钟。
Twelve minutes, sometimes fifteen.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
而且绝对如此，我的意思是，99.7%的人都能很好地完成。
And absolutely, I mean 99.7% of the people do it just fine.
我站在一位57岁的整骨医生身后。
I'm standing behind this 57 year old chiropractor.
我们房间里有600个人。
We had 600 people in the room.
有个家伙坐在房间后面，盯着那张纸，我就走过去问他：进展怎么样？
This one guy's sitting back from the room just looking at the paper going, So I come up to him and said, so how's it going?
还不错。
Fine.
我说：你就这么旁观不参与了？
I go, you're you're just gonna sit this one out?
他回答：不。
He goes, no.
不。
No.
我在做呢。
I'm I'm doing it.
我说：你这做得也太少了。
I go, well, you're not doing much.
得把笔拿起来。
Gotta pick up the pen.
他说：是的。
He goes, yeah.
我有点卡住了。
I'm a little stuck.
我说：那你平时都做些什么？
I go, well, what do you do?
我是个整骨医生。
I'm a chiropractor.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
你喜欢吗？
You like it?
我非常喜欢。
I like it a lot.
你做这个多久了？
How long have been doing that?
二十七年了。
Twenty seven years.
好的。
Okay.
你想死在这件事上吗？
You wanna die doing that?
我说，什么？
I said, what?
我说，等你快去世的时候，你还想继续做这个吗？
I said, by the time you die, do you wanna still be doing this?
他有点说，嗯，我觉得不会。
He kinda goes, well, I don't think so.
我说，哦，那总有一天，你会去做别的事情。
I said, oh, then at some point, you're gonna do something else.
他说，嗯，我想是吧。
He goes, well, I guess so.
我说，那会是什么呢？
I go, and what might that be?
他说，哦，我想我会...
He goes, oh, I guess I
我难道不会去做别的事情吗？
am gonna do something else, aren't I?
我说，是的，你会的。
I said, yes, you are.
把这个写下来。
Write that down.
他说，哦，好的。
He goes, oh, okay.
我的意思是，他其实有这个潜力。
I mean, he had it in him.
他只是需要超越自己。
He just had to get over himself.
我喜欢这个。
I love this.
当我讲话时，我会鼓励你们——除非你在开车，否则现在就去做。
And I'm gonna encourage you as you're listening, unless you're driving a car, do this right now.
想一想。
Think about it.
如果什么都没变，五年后生活会是什么样子？
Like, if nothing changes, it goes well, what does life look like five years?
如果一切都不复存在，你不得不启动B计划，五年后的生活会是什么样子？你在做什么？
If everything disappears and you gotta go to plan B, what does life look like in five years, and what are you doing?
那其他可能是什么？
What's the something else?
那个疯狂而大胆的事情是什么？你不需要钱，也不会被人嘲笑？
And what is the crazy wild thing that you don't need money and nobody's gonna laugh at you?
对。
Right.
没错。
Yep.
那件事到底是什么？
What is that thing?
课程和讲座，是一系列这样的小型工作坊和设计练习。
Classes and lectures, it's a series of these little workshop things and design exercises.
然后人们三人一组，互相阅读彼此。
So then people get in threes and they read each other.
我向另外两个人朗读了我的奥德赛计划，并教他们以非常开放的心态去倾听。
I read My Odyssey Plan to the other two people, and we teach them to listen very generatively.
在成千上万次这样的活动中，当我总结课程时，最后一个问题我会问：你们这些倾听者，听到班上每个人提出的那些意外计划后，有多少人认为那个人真的能实现那个疯狂的计划？
In tens and tens of thousands of these, the last question I ask when I'm debriefing the class, say, you know those wildcard plans that you heard from everybody in the class, of the listeners, how many of you think that person could actually do the wild card?
这并没有他们自己想象的那么疯狂。
It's not nearly as crazy as they think.
100%。
A 100%.
100%。
100%.
这并没有你们想的那么疯狂。
It's not as crazy as you think.
而且，我们并不是要人们辞职去，你知道，当
And again, we're not trying to get people to quit their jobs and, you know, when
加入马戏团。
Join the circus.
加入马戏团。
Join the circus.
这只是证明，你比自己想象的更有生命力。
It's just that it's proof there's more life in you than you think.
当你用三元思维，而不是二元或单一思维时，你会发现更多的可能性。
There's more possibilities than you think when you think in threes, not binaries or ones.
当你谈论这个的时候，你会像波士顿的‘疯子’标志一样亮起来。
You you know, you light up like the sicko sign in Boston when you talk about this.
是的。
Yeah.
你上次做这个时，你的意外计划是什么？
What is your wild card the last time you did this?
艺术家。
Artist.
像画家那样？
Like a painter?
我是一名画家。
I am a painter.
我一直都是个画家。
I have been a painter.
于是我去了斯坦福。
So I went off to Stanford.
即使在我那时候，这也很贵，我想主修艺术。
It was even back when I did it, it was kind of expensive, and I wanted to be an art major.
我爸爸是个很务实的人，他说：听着，如果你想主修艺术，那就回来上马萨诸塞大学吧。
My dad was a pretty practical guy, and he said, Look, if you want to be an art major, yeah, come back and go to, go to UMass.
我没让你付斯坦福的学费，但我发现了设计这个领域，这挺酷的，因为我们的设计专业是艺术、工程和心理学的结合。
I'm not paying for Stanford, but I found this design thing and that was pretty cool because our design major was a combination of art and engineering and psychology.
但我向那个18岁的自己许下承诺，总有一天我会成为艺术家。
But I did make a promise to that 18 year old kid that someday I'd be an artist.
所以我有了一个工作室，绘画是我的专长。
And so I have a studio and painting is my thing.
当我待在工作室画画时，我不知道自己画得怎么样。
And when I'm in the studio painting, is, I don't know if I'm any good.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
罗伯特·亨利是20世纪20年代纽约著名的绘画学校。
Robert Henry is a famous painting school in New York in the 1920s.
他的观点是：目标不是创作艺术。
His phrase was, goal isn't to make art.
目标是进入那种让艺术自然而然诞生的奇妙心境。
The goal is to be in that marvelous state of mind that makes art inevitable.
你知道吗？这正是我们在这里做事的宗旨。
Do you know that's the mission of how we do work here?
是的。
Yeah.
这句话。
That quote.
酷。
Cool.
我能看出来。
I can tell.
所以这句话贴在我工作室的门上。
So that's on the door of my studio.
是的。
Yeah.
要处于那种奇妙的心境中，没错，那是一个非常特别的状态。
And to be and to be in that marvelous state of mind, yeah, it's a very special place.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我向自己承诺，这将是我的王牌，而且即将到来。
And so I promised myself that that will be my that is my wildcard, and that is coming up.
戴夫，你的呢？
Dave, what's yours?
嗯，有很多呢。
Well, there are a bunch of them.
其中一个可能差点就当了演员，但我一直觉得有一种特别的表演艺术非常有趣，那就是在一家极其高端的餐厅当服务员。
One probably came very close to becoming an actor, but there's a particular version of performance art that I've long thought would be really fun to try, which is to be a waiter in an extremely elite restaurant.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这绝对是表演艺术。
Which I think is absolutely performance art.
我第一次听说你这样想。
First time I've ever heard of you.
那你再多说说。
So tell me more.
如何读懂气氛。
How to read the room.
我的意思是，你知道，人们陆续进来。
I mean, so, you know, that people are coming in.
他们的期望非常高，这一对夫妻正在吵架，而那家人正在庆祝孩子毕业。
Their expectations are incredibly high, and this couple's having an argument, and that family is celebrating the kid's graduation.
你能读懂气氛吗？
Can you read the room?
你能最大限度地提升这种极致的体验吗？
Can you maximize this incredible experience?
因为人们去高档餐厅是为了某种特别的庆祝或活动，而恰当的服务能完美地烘托出这种氛围。
Because you go to a fine dining experience for a particular kind of celebration or a particular kind of outing, and the right wait service catalyzes it beautifully.
糟糕的服务则会毁掉一切。
The wrong wait service wrecks it.
我能否同时在九张餐桌上进行即兴表演，每张桌子都扮演不同的角色，让每一位客人都在当下获得绝佳的体验？
And can I deliver the improv performance that has nine different stages at the same time called tables, playing nine different parts, having every one of those people have an amazing experience in real time?
我能做到吗？
Can I pull that off?
我的意思是，经营一家真正、真正出色的餐厅是非常非常困难的事。
I mean, running a really, really amazing restaurant is a really, really hard thing.
真的很难。
It's really hard.
这绝对不在我的理想清单上。
That's definitely not on my fantasy list.
我的理想是
My fantasy
清单，不。
list No.
我不想待在厨房里。
Don't wanna be in the kitchen.
太吓人了。
It's too scary.
我的理想肯定是写一部奇幻三部曲。
Mine for sure is I want to write a fantasy trilogy.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yes.
全是关于潜藏在我们身边的天使以及主题
All about angels that are among us and the theme
我们这个世界中，梅尔是一部奇幻三部曲，对吧。
of our world where Mel is a fantasy trilogy Right.
对。
Yeah.
它们很邪恶，我早就构思了十年了，我打算要写了。
Far, they're bad, and I have this whole I've been thinking about it for ten years, and I'm I'm I'm going to.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
我会去做的。
I'm going to do it.
不过它一直都在那里，我很喜欢你分享这一点。
Like but it's it's always in there, and I love that you share that.
对于正在听或看的你，我希望你分享你的意外之选。
And for you listening or watching, I I want you to share your wildcard.
是的。
Yeah.
无论是告诉我们，还是在评论区或节目留言中分享，或者当你把这一集分享给你在乎的人时，可以稍微神秘一点说：‘我的意外之选是这个’，当你听完就会明白我的意思，然后我希望你告诉我你的。
Either with us or put it in the review or the comment of the show or when you share this episode with somebody that you care about, be a little cryptic and say, my wild card is this, and you'll know exactly what I mean when you listen to this, and then I want you to tell me yours.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，梅尔、比尔和我，我们经常聊我们长期在做的事情。
You know, Mel, Bill and I, we talk about the stuff we've been doing for a long time.
我们经常说，归根结底，我们真正做的是给予人们活出自己人生的许可。
We often say, at the end of the day, what we're really doing, we're just giving people permission to live their lives.
其实就是告诉你：可以，你行。
It's really just giving yes, you can.
你知道如何做到这一点。
You do know how to do this.
你内心拥有这份能力。
You have it in you.
你可能没有成为奥运选手的天赋，但你一定有成为某种人的潜力。
You may not have it in you to be an Olympian, but you have it in you to be something.
因为奥德赛计划之后紧接着就是原型制作，你的计划中你想了解哪一部分？
And because right after the Odyssey plans comes prototyping, what on your plan do you wanna learn about?
然后他们就开始做原型。
And then they prototype.
哦，这就是下一步了。
Oh, that's the next step.
他们回来后，这就是下一步。
They come back That's the next step.
是的。
Yeah.
回到下一节课，他们说：你知道吗，你其实可以在马戏团谋生？
Back to the next class and they go, did you know you could actually make a living in the circus?
我有一个学生，是斯坦福的体操运动员，她想上医学院。
I had one student who was a gymnast at Stanford, and she wanted to go to medical school.
她的父母也希望她上医学院。
Her parents wanted to go to medical school.
她达成了一个协议。
She cut a deal.
在我上医学院之前，我能先做点别的吗？
Can I do something before I go to medical school?
她现在在中国的太阳马戏团，是一名小丑，而这正是她奥德赛计划中的内容。
She's now in Cirque du Soleil in China, and she is a circus clown, which was on her odyssey plan.
她过得很开心。
And she's having a great time.
但人们很难想象如此疯狂的事情竟然可能实现。
But people have a hard time even imagining something so wild it's not possible.
当他们谈论计划一的时候，就像是，是的。
And when they talk about plan one, it's kinda like, yeah.
那我就继续当会计师，然后做这件事。
Well, so I'm gonna just keep being an accountant, and I'm gonna do this thing.
而且，你知道，我挺擅长这个的，等等等等。
And, you know, I'm pretty good at it, da da da.
但当他们谈到自己的备选方案时，会说，我真的热爱潜水和水下摄影，我在想能不能成为一名做摄影的潜水教练，也许为国家地理工作。
But when they talk about their wild card, they're like, you know, I really love diving and underwater photography, and I'm wondering if I could be a dive instructor who does photography, maybe for National Geographic.
我会说，恰好我认识一个人，他创办了一家公司，专门制造水下摄像机。
And I say, well, I happen to know a guy who started a company building underwater cameras.
你愿意进行一次原型面谈吗？
Would you like to have a prototype interview?
他们说：‘真的吗？’
And they're like, really?
我说：是的。
I go, yeah.
当你知道自己并不知道该做什么的时候，是怎样的感觉？
When you know that you don't know what you're doing right?
你必须在自己的无知中保持能力。
The competence of you have to be competent at your incompetence.
你必须擅长知道自己在做什么——未来我还没搞明白。
You have to be good at knowing when you don't know what you're doing called the future I haven't figured out yet.
是的。
Yes.
所以你先行动，然后学习，再行动，再学习，然后再回头。
So you make a move, then learn something, make a move, learn something, then go back.
你知道的？
You know?
不断行动，直到你通过原型设计逐步迭代向前。
Keep making moves until you finally iterate your way forward through prototyping.
这就是我们所教授的。
That's what we teach.
人生是一系列渐进的原型。
Life is a series of incremental prototypes.
你通过亲身经历来找到自己的方向。
You find your way by living into your life.
我们一直说，你要通过行动来向前推进。
You build your way forward, we keep saying.
没有什么是能预先知道的。
There is no knowing.
只有行动、学习和成长。
There is only doing, learning, and growing.
比尔和戴夫，我非常高兴你们能来这里。
Bill and Dave, I am so happy that you're here.
我不太想这么说，但我得先暂停一下。
I hate to say this, but I gotta hit the pause button real quick.
我知道你们也很喜欢比尔和戴夫，但让我们给赞助商一点时间说几句话。
I know you're loving Bill and Dave too, but let's give our sponsors a chance to share a few words.
我也想给你们一个机会，把这期节目分享给那些需要听到它的人，因为我们每个人都值得拥有这份许可，也需要一些框架来设计真正想过的生活。
And I wanna give you a chance to share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it Because we all deserve the permission, and we also need the frameworks to design the life we truly wanna be living.
别走开，因为还有很多内容值得深入探讨，我们回来后还会做一个非常有趣的练习。
Don't go anywhere because there's so much more to dig into, and we've got a really cool exercise that we're gonna do when we return.
请继续关注我们。
So stay with us.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你们的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯，今天请来的两位嘉宾是斯坦福大学的教授。
It's It's your friend Mel Robbins, and today's Stanford University professors.
比尔·伯内特和戴夫·埃文斯来到这里，这是我们首次双嘉宾访谈节目。
Bill Burnett and Dave Evans are here for our first ever double guest episode.
我们正在讨论如何创造有意义的人生，我真的很喜欢这个话题。
We're talking about how to create a meaningful life, and I am loving it.
我知道你也一样。
I know you are too.
那我们继续吧。
So let's jump back in.
我知道我会收到很多关于这个的问题。
So I know I'm gonna get a ton of questions about this.
你们能举几个例子吗
Can you guys give a couple examples
一个实际的原型是什么样的？
of what actually a prototype looks like?
小丑表演。
Clowning.
小丑表演还真是个正经事。
Clowning's actually a thing.
是圣约翰骑士团吗？
And there's is it the Shriners?
有没有某个组织会培训成员，让他们去医院扮小丑逗孩子开心？
Is it there's there's some outfit where they they train the members, and they do clowning in hospitals to visit kids.
哦，所以你可以联系当地的医院，看看有没有人去做儿童小丑表演？
Oh, so you could probably call the local hospitals, and does anybody do clowning with the children?
太好了。
Oh, great.
他们有相关的培训吗？
Do they have a training for that?
相信我，肯定有人愿意培训你当小丑。
So you could go trust me, there's somebody who will train you to be a clown.
你可以尝试一点小丑表演，去儿童病房逗逗孩子，或者干脆陪他们玩一玩。
Can be a little bit of clowning that you could go into the children's ward and try cheering some maybe just ride along with them.
观察他们。
Watch them.
我的意思是，有办法触及你自以为在思考的问题。
I mean, there are ways to get at the thing that you think you're thinking about.
所以你现在20岁。
So you're 20.
你看到你的朋友们住在蒙大拿。
You see your friends living in Montana.
我该住在纽约吗？
Should I live in New York?
我该去蒙大拿吗？
Should I go to Montana?
我该去做投行吗？
Should I go into iBanking?
我该做个滑雪爱好者吗？
Should I be a ski bum?
我的意思是，我不知道该拿自己的人生怎么办，你都28岁了。
Like, I don't know what to do with my you're 28.
一个原型的例子是什么？
What's an example of a prototype?
这是另一个例子。
Here's another one.
一位全职妈妈，孩子长大了，现在轮到我了。
A stay at home mom, the kids are gone, now it's my turn.
对。
Right.
我到底在做什么？
What am I doing?
我要回去读护理学校吗？
Am I going back to nursing school?
我要完成我的学位吗？
Am I finishing my degree?
我要写那本小说吗？
Am I writing that novel?
我在写什么？
Am I writing about?
那本我一直在想的小说？这具体意味着什么呢？你能举出几个你见过的实际例子，让听的人能明白吗？
That novel that I'm Like, what does that mean in terms of just a couple specific things that you've seen people do to give the person listening an idea?
我正和一位57岁、孩子刚离家的空巢妈妈坐在一起，她留下了一些未完成的事，却不知道接下来该做什么。
So I'm sitting with the 57 year old suddenly empty nested mom who left a couple of things behind, doesn't know what to do.
很好。
Great.
那我们快速列一下可能有点意思的事项吧。
So let's quickly come up with your list of things that might be at all interesting.
好的。
K.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
我在想当个滑雪爱好者。
I'm thinking about being a ski bum.
我正在考虑重返医学院。
I'm thinking about going back to medical school.
我确实和一位54岁的人聊过这件事，我也在想成为一名小说家。
I actually talked to a 54 year old about that, and I'm thinking about being a novelist.
好的。
Okay.
行吧。
Fine.
现在也许我该去攻读创意写作的硕士学位，花三年时间、三万美元，然后写一篇博客，结果我也没觉得有多喜欢。
Now maybe I should, oh, I'm gonna go back and and get a master's degree in creative writing and spend three years and $30,000 and then write one blog, and I didn't like it that much.
糟糕的主意。
Terrible idea.
这简直是跳下悬崖。
That's jumping way off the cliff.
所以我做的原型就是：去和人聊聊。
So the prototype I do would say talk to people.
去尝试各种事情。
Try stuff.
所以出去和别人进行大量的叙事性对话，而不是问：‘你是作家吗？你赚多少钱？你上过什么学校？’
So go out and have a bunch of narrative conversations, not with, oh, you're a novelist, and how much do you make, and what did you school did you go to?
那些是交易型对话，不是叙事性对话。
Those are transactional conversations, not narrative conversations.
比如：做你自己是什么感觉？你喜欢什么？不喜欢什么？给我讲讲这一切。
Like, what's it like to be you, and what do you enjoy, and what do you not enjoy, and tell me all about that.
我会和我想进入的领域里的人进行这些叙事性对话，是的。
And I have these narrative conversations with people in the world I'm thinking about being in Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
这正是哈佛的丹·吉尔伯特所说的‘替代’，而不是‘模拟’。
Which is what Dan Gilbert at Harvard, not a bad school, would say is surrogation, not simulation.
别再光读关于它的内容了。
Quit reading about it.
去和人们聊聊这件事吧，因为你也是一个人，当你遇到一个讲述这个故事的人时，这个故事就会变得真实，你会从你想要进入的这个世界中的人身上学到更多，而不是仅仅通过阅读。
Go talk to people about it because you're a person, When you encounter a person who tells that story, that story becomes real, you'll actually learn more from persons in the world you're thinking about than reading about it.
你会有所感受。
You'll feel something.
你会有所感受。
You'll feel something.
你会有所体验。
You'll experience something.
然后也许有人能有机会搭个便车或去实地参观。
And then maybe someone can get to a ride along and a visit.
你可以做一些实验，在过度投入之前先尝试各种方法，经过多次迭代后，你最终会做出更好的决定。
You can you can do some experimentation, try stuff long before you overcommit, and then eventually after enough iterations, you'll make a better decision.
你知道什么很有趣吗？
You know what's interesting?
因为我想在此基础上继续深入。
Because I wanna build on this.
是的。
Yep.
因为很多人可能会对你说：我不知道该做什么。
Because so many people probably say to you, well, I have no idea.
不知道自己想做什么。
Have no idea what I wanna do.
但那几乎从来都不是真的。
And I That's almost never true.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
如果你现在正想着：我不知道人生的意义是什么。
And if you're saying that right now, like, I don't know what my life's about.
我不知道自己喜欢什么。
I don't know what I like.
我特别喜欢你提到的14%这个概念，还有你邀请我们进入时间机器加速器的想法。
I I love this 14% thing and this idea and the invitation you gave us to step into a time machine accelerator thingy.
普通人会说，我想象过八种人生。
And the average person says, I've imagined eight lives.
是的。
Yeah.
那你现在就在其中一种里。
So you're in one of them.
对。
Right.
你还有另外七种。
You've got another seven.
是的。
Yep.
在你脑海中的幻想里，另外七种人生会是什么样子？
What are the other seven lives you would imagine in the fantasy of your mind?
对。
Right.
这些正是你需要去深入探索并保持好奇的事情。
And those are the things to then lean into and get curious about.
当然。
Absolutely.
我一直想成为一名潜水教练。
Always wanted to be a dive instructor.
我喜欢潜水，但我总想成为一名摄影师。
I love diving, but I always wanna be a photographer.
我想做一个播客。
I wanna have a podcast.
好的。
Okay.
在你投身做播客之前，先试试每天写一篇2000字的文章，连续写五天。
Before you jump into the podcast, try writing, you know, a 2,000 word essay every day for five days.
看看这种感觉如何。
See how that feels.
哦，那真的很难。
Oh, that was really hard.
那真的非常孤独。
It was really lonely.
戴夫讨厌写作，因为写作很孤独。
Dave hates writing because it's lonely.
我是内向的人，他是外向的人。
I'm the introvert, he's the extrovert.
我喜欢一整天独自待在房间里自言自语。
I love sitting in a room talking to myself all day long.
这很棒，但他根本受不了。
It's wonderful and he can't stand it.
所以试着去尝试那些事情，去和人交谈。
So like try the trying stuff and the talking to people.
如果你去问作家，他们会说写作非常孤独。
If you talk to writers, they'll say writing is very lonely.
如果你无法应对这一点，那对你来说就不会是好事。
If you can't handle that, it's not going to be a good thing for you.
除非你和真正做这件事的人聊聊，否则你不会知道这一点。
And you wouldn't know that unless you talk to somebody who does it.
所以这简直像时光旅行。
So it's almost like time travel.
你可以稍微体验一下，和那个你觉得自己可能想成为的人交谈。
You can have a little experience of talking to somebody who's the person you think you might wanna be.
他们已经在这条路上走了十年了。
They're already ten years down the road doing it.
但这种经历，这种对话，远比‘我去谷歌搜搜有多少写作技巧’要有力得多。
And that experience, but that conversation is so much more powerful than, oh, I'm gonna look up on Google how many writing hacks are there?
你知道吗？
You know?
那五位最著名的作家是什么时候写作的？
When when did the five most famous writers write?
你知道吗？
You know?
他们早上写作。
They wrote in the morning.
他们下午写作。
They wrote in the afternoon.
这些事情根本没有规律。
There's no pattern to any of that stuff.
所以，你可以对任何事情进行原型设计，而缺乏好奇心的说法其实并不成立。
So, you can prototype anything, and and the lack of the lack of curiosity isn't really true.
我没有任何想法。
I have no ideas.
你真的没有任何想法。
You really have no ideas.
好吧。
Okay.
你最近看过的哪个节目你觉得有意思？
What was the last show you watched that you thought was interesting?
做点简单的东西。
Make something simple.
我们不是
We're not
在谈论你这辈子会一直做的事。
talking about the thing you'll do for the rest of your life.
我们在谈论你下周想做什么？
We're talking about what do you want to do next week?
当这一切为某人展开时，他们开始感受到什么可能会带来更多意义。
So as all of this opens up for somebody and they have this sense of what might create more meaning.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我想变得好奇。
And I wanna get curious.
我想做个原型。
I wanna prototype.
对失败的恐惧，以及对别人会怎么想的恐惧，是的。
The fear of failure and the fear of what other people are gonna think Yeah.
这种恐惧可能像大锤一样袭来。
Probably comes in like a sledgehammer.
当你的学生在那一刻获得清晰的认知后，你会对他们说什么呢？
What do you say to people in your classes when they get this moment of clarity and then it's like
从非常小的步骤开始。
Start really small.
我的意思是，给自己点空间吧，看在上帝的份上。
I mean, cut yourself some slack for god's sake.
我们谈论的是对失败的免疫力，因为原型的目的是学习，而不是成功。
We talk about failure immunity because the purpose of a prototype is to learn something, not to succeed.
我们做原型不是为了确认它会不会成功。
We don't prototype to make sure, oh, will it work?
不。
No.
我需要更多了解什么？
Just what do I need to know more about?
我要去跟着体验一下，比如去儿童医院当小丑的观察员，我可能会说错话。
I'm I'm gonna go ride along, you know, and and be an auditor of the children's clowns, you know, at the hospital, you know, and I might say the wrong thing.
我的意思是，我会搞砸吗？
I mean, I blow it?
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
我只是想了解这里的情况。
I'm just I'm just trying to learn what it's like here.
所以首先，别把你的原型当成孤注一掷。
So first of all, have your prototypes not bet the farm.
你知道的。
You know?
比如说，也许我会去伯克利的谢扎潘尼斯餐厅，那是加州最昂贵的餐厅之一，去看看，因为我认识一个和爱丽丝·沃特斯关系特别好的朋友。
Like, maybe my maybe what I'll do is I'll I'll go to Chez Panisse in Berkeley, you know, one of the most expensive restaurants in all of California, and see because I know a friend who's really close friends with Alice Waters.
她很可能帮我安排当服务员。
She could probably get me in as the waiter.
所以，我当服务员的第一晚，就要在爱丽丝·沃特斯面前服务。
So my first night as a waiter is in front of Alice Waters at Chez Panisse.
这根本不是原型。
That is not a prototype.
这是一场表演。
That's a performance.
所以别对自己太苛刻。
So cut yourself some slack.
没错。
Exactly.
没关系。
It's okay.
而且我很可能失败。
And I'm likely to fail.
我甚至可能都不想在那里端面包。
I probably wouldn't even wanna serve the bread there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以别搞得太复杂。
So so make it easy.
让它变得简单，让风险几乎为零，这样的机会多的是。
Make it small where almost nothing is at stake, of which there are plenty of opportunities.
给自己一点喘息的空间。
Give yourself a break.
让它变得有趣。
Make it interesting.
让它变得有趣。
Make it fun.
把它缩小。
Cut it down small.
别目标太高。
Don't shoot too high.
我们非常推崇赛斯和马洛。
We're we're really big on Seth and Marlow.
你知道的，赛斯、马洛和克莱尔，这整个都是关于心理学和行为改变的。
You know, Seth and Marlow and Claire, this is the whole psychology behavior change.
如果你把事情搞得太庞大，你是不可能改变的。
You're not gonna change if you make something so big.
知道吗？
Know?
这是新的一年，人们都立下了新年决心。
This is the new year, and people have made their resolutions.
我今年要跑一场马拉松。
I'm gonna run a marathon this year.
但事实上，除非你把目标拆分成非常非常小的步骤，否则根本不可能实现。
It's like, no, probably unless you break that into very, very small steps, it's not gonna happen.
所以我们真的只做极其简单的事情。
And so we really don't for super simple things.
这也会提升你的信心。
And that builds up your confidence too.
如果你尝试某件事，进行试错和原型设计，就能学到一些东西，从而变得更加自信。
If you try something and you dress and prototypes, you learn some stuff, you get a little more confident.
最终，当你转变成设计师的思维模式时，你会意识到：哦，我什么都能做原型。
Eventually, when you flip into this designer's mindset, you realize, Oh, I can prototype anything.
这里根本没有什么失败。
There's really no failure here.
失败只是我脑子里编出来的一个规则。
Failure is just some rule I made up in my head.
一旦我抛弃了这个规则，我就自由多了。
And once I get rid of that rule, I'm much more free.
但确实，恐惧让很多人不敢尝试。
But yeah, fear drives a lot of people to to not try.
是的。
Yeah.
现在开始会不会太晚了？
Is it ever too late?
我觉得很多人很害怕已经太晚了。
I think there's a big fear that it's too late.
我糟蹋得太多了。
I've blown it too much.
不。
No.
永远都不晚。
It's never too late.
我的意思是，有一次一位54岁的女性在听完我的演讲后问我，我去上医学院是不是疯了？
I mean, out of a talk, a 54 year old woman has asked me about, you know, am I crazy to go to medical school?
我说，我们来快速算一笔账吧。
I said, look, let's just run the numbers really quickly.
好吗？
Okay?
根据你出生时所继承的基因池，你大概什么时候会去世？
Based on the DNA of the gene pool you were born into, what's the likelihood of when you're gonna die?
她想了想说，我大概能活到八十多岁，快九十岁吧。
She kinda goes, I'm probably gonna make it to my late eighties, early nineties.
我说，去吧，太好了。
I said, go, great.
假设我健康地活到85岁、88岁，你希望工作到什么时候？
Let's say I make it healthy to 85, 88, how long do you wanna work?
嗯，可能80岁就停了。
Well, probably at 80.
他们说，好的，太好了。
They said, okay, great.
所以我们还有26年的时间。
So we've got twenty six years to go.
你可能会花一年时间参加一个医学申请预备课程，叫做研究生后课程。
You're probably going to spend a year going to a medical school application preparatory program called a postbac program.
花了一年时间做这个。
Spent a year on that.
又花了一年时间申请入学。
Spent a year trying to get in.
那就是两年。
That's two.
四年完成医学院学业。
Four years to get through medical school.
顺便说一下，你现在进入住院医师阶段了。
Now you're in residency, by the way.
90%的医疗工作是由住院医师完成的，所以你已经是医生了。
90% of medicine is done by residents, so you're already a doctor.
你现在已经在项目进行六年后开始实践医学了。
You're now practicing medicines six years into the program.
最终，你完成了专科培训。
Eventually, you finish your specialty.
你知道，现在项目已经进行了八年。
You know, we're now eight years into the program.
这样你就到了六十四岁。
That puts you at sixty four.
你还有十一年到十二年要走，才可能稍微放松一下，也许要十五年。
You got eleven you got eleven to twelve years to go before even backing off, maybe fifteen.
抛开所有这些传统思维的废话，直接问自己一个问题：到底发生了什么？
Cut out the crap of all this conventional thinking and just ask yourself the question, what's happening?
可能会是什么？
What might it be?
我的意思是，我即将第三次结婚，因为你知道，我妻子去世了，这可不是我的计划。
I mean, I'm about to get married for the third time because, you know, my wife died on me, which was not the plan.
我的很多朋友都觉得，
And a lot of my friends, they make it like,
哦，太难了。
oh, it's too hard.
太费劲了。
It's too much work.
托尼，你真的还想再经历一次吗？
Tony, you really wanna go through that again?
去吧，当然了。
Go, sure.
这太棒了。
This is terrific.
这需要大量的工作。
It's a ton of work.
这简直是天大的工作量。
It's an absolute mountain of work.
你知道的。
You know?
但我的意思是，我还能做什么呢？
But I mean, what else am I doing?
戴夫，非常感谢你这么说。
Dave, thank you so much for saying that.
我还有很多问题想问你。
There are so many more things I have to ask you.
自从我开始做这个播客以来，我就一直在等待这一刻。
I've been waiting for this moment since I started this podcast.
我需要给我们的赞助商一些时间来说几句话，所以我们先暂停一下。
I need to give our sponsors a chance to share a few words, so let's just hit the pause button for a moment.
他们已经给了你们很多值得思考的内容。
And they've given you so much to think about.
我知道，当你在想象、想象所有这些可能性、所有你可能过上的生活时，有个人正浮现在你的脑海中。
And I know as you've been imagining, imagining all these possibilities, all these lives that you could be living, somebody's popping in your mind.
你生活中有个人正陷入困境，他需要这个框架。
There's somebody in your life who's stuck, somebody who needs this framework.
把这期节目发给他们，分享这期节目，因为这期节目证明了，创造幸福而有意义的生活不必是猜谜或空想。
Text them this episode, share this episode, because this episode is proof that creating a happy, meaningful life doesn't have to be a guessing game or a pipe dream.
你不必独自面对这一切。
You don't have to do this alone.
有经过验证的工具、策略和框架，可以帮助你和你关心的人实现这一点。
There are proven tools and strategies and frameworks that can help you and the people you care about do it.
所以分享出去，别走开，我们马上回来。
So share this and don't go anywhere because we'll be right back.
继续跟我在一起。
Stay with me.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
今天，你和我将与斯坦福大学的比尔·伯内特教授和戴夫·埃文斯教授共度时光，他们是令人惊叹的课程《设计你的人生》的缔造者。
And today, you and I are spending time with professors Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, the brilliant minds behind Stanford University's incredible course called Designing Your Life.
今天，他们将教我们如何为生活创造更多意义。
And today, they're here to teach you and I how to create more meaning in our lives.
我还有另一个疑问。
Here's another thing I was wondering about.
当你参加葬礼时，这非常有意思。
When you go to a funeral, it's very interesting.
哦
Oh,
是的。
yeah.
你一走出葬礼，就会感觉更鲜活，更有紧迫感，对。
The second you walk out of the funeral, you feel more alive and you have more urgency Yeah.
去完成你来到这里要做的事，戴夫和比尔。
To do what you came here to do, Dave and Bill.
你说，我们想给人们授权
You said, we wanna give people permission
是的。
Yeah.
去过自己的人生。
To live their lives.
尤其是在现在，世界感觉如此令人窒息，人们筋疲力尽，问题又如此巨大，很容易就放弃。
And especially right now when the world feels so overwhelming and people are exhausted and there are very big problems, it's easy to go.
这都不重要了。
It doesn't matter.
当你开始算账时，无论你告诉我你有七种不同的人生可以选择，但你临终时仍有一大堆未完成的清单和未实现的目标，你都五十了，那又怎样？
And when you start to do the math, whether you're telling me that you have seven different lives you could do, you're gonna die with shit on your to do list and things you never achieved, you're 50, so what?
你还有四十岁，你七十岁。
You got forty you're 70.
你大概还剩下二十年。
You probably got twenty more years left.
你到底在做什么？
What are you doing?
是的。
Yeah.
我的下一个里程碑就是死亡。
My next milestone is death.
我没有时间可以浪费。
I haven't got time to waste.
但大卫和我一直身处美好的社群中。
But David and I have been in wonderful communities.
我加入了一个男性团体，已经三十二年了，因为我儿子出生时我开始参与，当时我需要学习如何抚养儿子。我们相处足够久，已经有一些成员离世，我们参加过他们的葬礼，并对他们说了许多美好的话。
I've been in this group of men, a men's group for thirty two years, because I had started when my son got born, and I need to figure out how to raise a son, and we end up, we've been around long enough that we've had some guys die, gone to their funerals and said wonderful things about them.
然后我们决定，为什么不在我们去世前就互相说些美好的话呢？
And then we decided, why don't we wait till we die before we say wonderful things about each other?
所以我们在男性团体中制定了一项协议：你可以宣布，‘我下周就要走了。’
So we have a protocol in our men's group where you can say, I'm gonna die next week.
请每个人为我写一篇悼词。
I'd like everybody to write a eulogy.
然后你进来，静静地躺在那里，听大家讲述关于你的最美好的事情，对吧？
And then you come in and then lay there quietly, and you listen to people say the most wonderful things about you, right?
因为悼词不是说，哦，戴夫的待办事项清单很长。
Because eulogies are not about, oh, well, Dave had a big to do list.
他完成了好多事情。
He crushed off lots of things.
他的幻灯片做得非常好，而且他总是按时完成预算。
His PowerPoints were very well done, and he always got his budget set on time.
没人会这么说。
Nobody says that.
他们会说，他是个好人。
They say, well, he's a good man.
他是个很棒的丈夫。
He was a wonderful husband.
他是个伟大的父亲。
He was a great father.
那就去做吧。
So do that.
让你的朋友为你写悼词，看看你对别人而言究竟意味着什么。
Have your friends write your eulogy and find out what you really mean to people.
这太惊人了。
It's amazing.
你也可以做这个练习，思考你希望别人如何评价你的一生。
You could also you do that exercise thinking about what you hope or wish is being said about how you lived your life.
因为你不希望看到的是，他活到70岁，拥有了一生的挚爱，却偏偏拒绝了再次结婚的机会。
Because what you don't want it to be is, well, he got to be 70 and had the love of his life and just turned down the opportunity to get married again and do it.
她本想上医学院，但三十年来一直说服自己放弃这个念头。
And she wanted to go to medical school, but talked herself out of it for thirty years.
没错。
Right.
不。
No.
一群自以为是的家伙，从1974年成立至今已经五十年了，叫TD三，汤姆和三个戴夫。
Mean, a smug of a guys for fifty one years formed in 1974, called TD three, Tom and Three Dave.
所以我是创始的戴夫。
So I'm the founding Dave.
我们刚刚一起做了这个练习，思考步入七旬后的生活，于是我们决定：首先，各自宣布自己预计的去世年龄，然后写下你希望那时人们为你写的悼词，并确保悼词中包含一些目前尚未实现的内容，这样你就能朝着理想中的自己努力前行。
And we just went through this exercise of moving into our seventies, and so we said, okay, let's all, first of all, announce what age we think we're gonna die at, and then write the eulogy you hope will be true by then, and make sure that the eulogy includes things that aren't true yet so you can live aspirationally into that.
我们真的相信，人始终在成长，而这种成长应该是一生持续不断的过程。
And we really do believe that a human being is becoming, and that becoming should be a nonstop program.
不要过早放弃。
Don't quit early.
现在你可能在身体上、环境上或其他方面有一些限制，但你总还有更多可以成为的样子。
Now you might have to have some constraints physically, circumstantially, otherwise, but there's always more you can become into.
那么，你希望带着哪些问题去生活呢？
So which questions do you wanna live into?
顺便说一下，最好有一些人和你一起探讨这些问题。
And by the way, preferably, it does really help to have some people around that you're asking these questions with.
是的。
Yeah.
那你说自己打算活到多少岁？清单上那些还没完成的事情是什么？
So how old did you say you were gonna be when you died, and what was the thing that you haven't done yet that was on the list?
我预计能活到85岁。
My life 85.
我觉得我应该能活到85岁。
I'm guessing I'll make it to 85.
我希望你能再活得久一点。
I'd like you to live a little longer.
嗯，我考虑过延长合同，但即便如此，我当时说的是85岁，而我对自己的期许是，当我到达天堂时，能被认出是一个已经去过那里的人。
Well, I I'm thinking I may work for an extension to the contract, but nonetheless, I I said at that time, I said 85, and the way I put what I'm aspiring to was when I get to heaven, I want to be recognized as somebody who's already been there.
意思是，我已经踏入了深刻的接纳与无条件的普世之爱，随时欢迎每一个人。
Meaning I've already stepped into profound acceptance and universal love and welcome to all persons at all times.
我希望在我到达那里之前，就已经活出那样的样子。
I want to look like I'm already doing that by the time I get there.
我认为这其中蕴含着巨大的力量，你知道的，根据大脑的工作方式，真正接纳你刚才所说的一切，不仅会赋予你当下过上有意义生活的许可，还能让你深入思考你希望在生命尽头达成什么。
I think there's a huge power, and you know this based on the way the brain works, in really embracing the truth of everything that you just said in terms of giving yourself permission to not just live a meaningful life now and find moments of meaning, but to really think about what you want to accomplish by the end.
我在想，你想成为什么样的人？
You know, I'm thinking about this Who do wanna become?
是的。
Yeah.
你想成为什么样的人？
Who do you wanna become?
我在想我岳母，她89岁了。
I'm thinking about my mother-in-law who's 89.
我觉得她89岁。
I think she's 89.
她是88岁吗？
Is she 88?
我不确定。
I don't know.
但她发了消息到家庭群聊里。
But she's she texted in the family wide group chat.
我还会再活十年。
I'm gonna be here another ten years.
好的。
Okay.
因为我想看到所有孙子孙女都结婚，如果他们选择结婚的话。
Because I wanna see all the grandkids get married if they choose to get married.
对。
Right.
我当时就想，哇。
And I was like, wow.
她还在参与其中。
She's in the game.
她还在参与其中。
She's in the game.
是的。
Yeah.
她知道自己在做什么。
She knows what she's doing.
对。
Yeah.
我认为这对我们所有人都是一种邀请。
And I think that's there's an invitation to all of us.
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