如果今天你只听一个播客，就听这个吧

嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。节目一开始我就要说，这是我们录制过的最精彩的单集之一。你将体验到非凡的内容。这不仅是我最喜爱的一次对话，而且毫无疑问，听完后你的生活将从此不同。

Hey. It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm just gonna start the show by saying this is one of the single best episodes we have ever recorded. You are in for something extraordinary. This is not only one of my favorite conversations that I've ever had, but there is no question your life will never be the same again once you listen to it.

今天，我邀请到当今商界最成功的白手起家女性之一。艾玛·格里德是价值30亿美元品牌Good American、SKIMS和Safely的CEO兼联合创始人。但这不是商业对话，而是一场关于如何从生活中获得你想要的一切的对话，来自一位奋力攀顶的女性。这绝对是我一生中最鼓舞人心、激励人心、充满能量的对话之一。

Today, I am joined by one of the most successful self made women in the world in business today. Emma Greed is the CEO and co founder of $3,000,000,000 brands, Good American, SKIMS, and Safely. But this is not a business conversation. This is a conversation about getting everything that you want out of life from a woman who fought her way to the top. This is hands down one of the most inspiring, motivating, energizing conversations that I have ever had in my entire life.

我迫不及待想让你体验这次对话。我这么说绝非轻率。今天你将获得如何活出非凡人生的蓝图。我要提前说明，即使你觉得自己一无所有，这次对话也会让你明白，你依然能创造非凡。艾玛在东伦敦由单亲母亲抚养长大。

I cannot wait for you to experience this. And I don't say that lightly. Today, you're getting the blueprint on how to live an extraordinary life. And I'm gonna say right up front that even if you feel like you are starting with nothing, this conversation is gonna make you realize you can still create something extraordinary. Now, Emma grew up in East London to a single mother.

她17岁时学业艰难，因无力支付学费而大学辍学。这个故事讲述了她如何从那里成为价值30亿美元公司的联合创始人。你将被她的魅力、亲和力、激情以及她即将不断抛出的真相炸弹所震撼。她专程乘飞机横跨全国来到这里，为你一步步讲述如何放大梦想、创造想要的未来、从现状出发建立让你自豪的事业。

She struggled through school at the age of 17. She dropped out of college because she couldn't pay for it. This is a story of how she went from there to becoming the cofounder of $3,000,000,000 companies. You are going to be blown away by her magnetism, her relatability, her passion, and the truth bombs she is about to drop over and over and over again. She has hopped on a plane and flown across the country to be here for you, to tell you step by step exactly how to dream bigger, how to create the future you want, how to start where you are, and build something that makes you proud.

艾玛的非凡故事证明你的创造力没有上限，她将向你展示如何在周围人怀疑时依然押注自己。你即将学到的内容会帮助你将梦想变为现实，我迫不及待想让你听到这些。嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。能与你共度时光始终是我的荣幸。

Emma's remarkable story is proof that there is no limit to what you can create, and she is gonna show you exactly what it takes to bet on yourself, especially when the people around you are doubting you. What you're about to learn is gonna help you turn your dreams into reality, and I just can't wait for you to hear this. Hey. It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It is always an honor to be together and to spend time with you.

但今天我特别兴奋你的到来，因为我知道：你是渴望更远大目标的人，你想创造让自己骄傲的人生。天啊，你来对地方了！

But today, in particular, I am so excited that you're here because here's what I know. You're the kind of person who aspires to something bigger. You wanna create a life that makes you proud. Oh my god. Are you in the right place?

你即将体验我一生中最非凡的对话之一。如果你是首次收听或经人推荐而来——首先这期节目是份礼物，很高兴有人分享给你。我也要亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭，因为选择从这里开始收听真是绝佳选择。这是我录制过最喜爱的单集，没有之一。

You're about to experience one of the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had in my entire life. And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you first of all, this episode's a gift. So really happy somebody shared this with you. I also wanna personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family because you picked an extraordinary place to start by listening to this. This is one of my favorite episodes that I have ever taped, period.

今天与我对话的是当今商界最成功的白手起家女性艾玛·格林。她刚被《福布斯》评为美国最富有的白手起家女性之一，是价值30亿美元品牌的CEO兼联合创始人——包括首个全包容时尚品牌Good American、价值40亿美元的全球塑身衣品牌SKIMS，以及高端植物基清洁产品线Safely。她还是风险投资人、《鲨鱼坦克》评委、四个孩子的母亲、十五percent承诺组织主席（该非营利机构鼓励零售商将至少15%货架空间留给黑人创办企业）。

Today, I am joined by one of the most successful self made women in business today, Emma Green. Emma was just named one of America's richest self made women by Forbes. She is the CEO and co founder of $3,000,000,000 brands. Good American, which was the first fully inclusive fashion brand, SKIMS, the $4,000,000,000 global shapewear brand, and Safely, a line of high quality plant based cleaning products. She's also a venture investor, a judge on Shark Tank, a mother of four, the chair of the fifteen percent pledge, which is a nonprofit that encourages retailers to pledge at least 15% of their shelf space to black owned businesses.

现在她正在自己的新播客《与艾玛·格里德共启愿景》中倾囊分享关于商业、职业和目标的宝贵建议。能邀请她来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客并与你分享这场对话，我无比激动。请和我一起欢迎艾玛·格里德来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。欢迎来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。

And now she is unpacking and sharing all of her incredible advice and lessons about business and career and goals on her new podcast, Aspire with Emma Greed. I am so extraordinarily excited to welcome her to the Mel Robbins podcast and to be able to share this conversation with you. So please help me welcome Emma Greed to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

非常感谢邀请，我非常高兴来到这里。

Thank you so much for having me. I am so happy to be here.

你能来到这里我太兴奋了。我迫不及待想向你学习，我知道在场的那位也同样激动。那么我想先请你分享一下，如果他们将你即将传授给我们的所有知识铭记于心，他们的生活或未来可能会发生哪些不同的变化？

I am so excited to have you here. I can't wait to learn from you, and I know the person that is here with us is excited too. And so I'd love to start by having you just share with the person who's here what could they experience that could be different about their life or their future if they take everything that you're about to teach us and share with us today to heart?

说实话，我把自己的人生——尤其是职业生涯——视为一个蓝图，展示了当你为自己负责并谨慎管理思想时会发生什么。我认为我学到的最重要一点就是：这两者的结合能让你在人生道路上走得很远很远。

I honestly think about my life and more specifically my career as a bit of a blueprint for what happens when you, a, take responsibility for yourself and when you really manage your thoughts carefully. And I think if there's anything that I've learned, it's that the combination of those two things will take you really really far in life.

所以是为自己和生活负责。

So taking responsibility for yourself and your life.

没错。还有非常谨慎地选择你的想法。非常谨慎地选择想法。这是一种选择。

Yeah. And choosing your thoughts really carefully. Choosing your thoughts really carefully. It's a choice.

当你这么做时会发生什么？

And when you do that, what happens?

你知道吗？当你这样做时，生活就会开始变得协调，这非常有趣，因为它是一种修行。就像我始终在修炼成为理想中的女性，所以必须认真思考这些事。当把这两件事结合起来时，你就能变得非常有目的性，结果也会自然而然地显现——开始真实发生。

You know, when you do that, somehow your life starts to align and it's really interesting because it's a practice. Like I feel like I'm in practice to be the woman that I wanna be constantly and so I have to really think about those things. And so when you bring those two things together, it allows you to be really, really purposeful and the outcome starts to just manifest like it starts to actually happen.

很多人都知道你是《创智赢家》的评委，是多家市值十亿美元公司的联合创始人。恭喜你入选《福布斯》白手起家女性百强榜。

So a lot of people know that you're a judge on Shark Tank. You are the cofounder of several billion dollar companies. Congratulations on making the Forbes 100 self made women list.

谢谢。

Thank you.

但大多数人不知道这一切是如何开始的。所以我想回到最初，回到东伦敦，聊聊你小时候的生活。嗯，你知道，我是在东伦敦长大的，那里...

But most people don't know where this all began. And so I wanna go back to the beginning, to East London, and talk about what life looked like when you were little. Well, you know, I was brought up in East London, which

有点像哈莱姆区或克伦肖区那样的地方。如果你想这么理解的话，可以说是比较艰苦的街区。我是四姐妹中的长女，由一位非常了不起的单亲妈妈抚养长大。生活确实有点艰难，妈妈用她微薄的资源尽了最大努力。

is a bit like, you know, if you were born in Harlem or Crenshaw or something like that. Like maybe, you know, the rough side of the tracks if you wanna see it like that. I'm the oldest of four girls raised by a wonderful wonderful single mom. And you know, we I guess life was a little bit tough. You know, my mom did the best that she could with the little that she had.

而且，你知道，我总把我们之间的关系动态想象成——她是爸爸，我是妈妈，我们共同抚养三个孩子。天啊。明白吗？用你们的话说，我是个被过度家长化的孩子。正因如此，我和三个妹妹的关系异常亲密，因为我确实参与了抚养她们、照顾她们的过程。

And, you know, I always think about our relationship dynamics as, you know, she was the dad, I was the mom, and we had three kids together. My god. You know? I was a very parentified child, if you like to say it that way. And I have a very, very close relationship with my three sisters as a result of that because I was really part of raising them and, you know, looking after them.

我过去常常早上起来熨三件校服衬衫，做三份便当午餐，送她们去上学。有时候，你知道，我自己都不去上学。到那时我已经精疲力尽了。可以说，我是被一个大家庭养大的——我母亲的娘家，她的姐妹们，她的母亲，都是我们生活中极其重要的存在。

I used to get up in the morning and iron three school shirts and make three packed lunches and send them off to school. And sometimes, you know, I wouldn't go to school myself. I'd be exhausted by that point. You know, I was really raised by a family. Like, my mom's family, her sisters, her mom were huge, huge parts of of our life.

说实话这很合理，因为你如此有行动力，是那种看到事情就会立刻去做的人。你认为童年照顾妹妹们的经历如何影响并塑造了今天的你？

It checks out honestly because you're so driven and you are the kind of person that I feel like you see something, you just do it. How do you think your childhood and that experience of taking care of your little sisters has impacted and shaped who you are today?

说实话，影响体现在方方面面，有好有坏。我很小就学会对自己负责，但也始终处于高度警觉状态。我住的地方并不安全，所以必须时刻考虑几步之后的打算。不过这也让我意识到必须远离原地——我清楚地知道留在出生地会限制我的发展，因此下定决心要通过拼命努力离开那里。

You know, in so many ways, and good and bad if I'm honest, you know, I learned at a very young age to take a lot of responsibility for myself, but I was always on very high alert, right? Where I lived wasn't particularly safe. And so you had to think a few steps ahead constantly. But it also gave me this idea that I needed to get far away from where I was. I was very aware that my circumstances would be limited if I stayed where I was from and so I had this idea that I would need to work really really hard to get out of this place.

但某种程度上我知道自己能做到。虽然不清楚具体该怎么做，但内心有个声音在说：我必须离开这里。

But I knew I would in a way. I just felt like I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know how this is gonna work, but I've gotta get out of here.

很多人都有同感。那么对于正在收听或观看、有同样感受却不确定能否脱困的人，你会说什么？因为你已经提到两个关键点：必须对自己的人生负责，以及要选择你的思维方式。

I think a lot of people feel like that. Oh yeah, Totally. And so if the person that's listening or watching right now feels that way, but they are not sure that they're going to get out, what would you say to them? Because you have already said two things. You've gotta take responsibility for yourself, for your life, for where you're going, and you've to choose your thoughts.

如果某人觉得'我应该有更广阔天地，必须离开这里'，但内心又否定说'艾玛做到了，但我不行'，你会怎么开导？

So if you have this sense, There's more for me. I got to get out of here. I want to have something different. But then your thoughts are like, it worked for Emma, but I'm not that kind of person. What would you say?

梅尔，关键在于——很多和我出身相似的人会有种背叛故土的负罪感，这种想法是错误的。你会觉得'这里塑造了我'，但我想说：你永远可以在心里带着故乡前行。

Well, you know, the other thing is, Mel, so many people that come from a place like where I come from, there's this sense that you'll be abandoning where you come from, that actually it's the wrong thought to have. You're like, this is who I am. This is where I come from. This is part of me. And what I would say to that person is you don't have to leave where you come from in your heart.

我始终是那个普拉斯托镇的女孩，永远都是。我只是离开了那个地方。离开物理空间并不意味着要放弃造就你的本质。

I'm still the girl I always was. I'm the girl from Plastow. I will always be that girl. I just left that place. And so you don't have to give up who you are and what made you you if you leave that physical space.

你依然可以保有那份赤子之心和坚韧特质——正是这些让你与众不同。这点非常重要，因为我曾极度困扰会离开那些塑造我的人。事实上他们每天都与我同在。只要下定决心，一切皆有可能，但空想不会改变现状——你必须将思想与行动结合起来。

You can still be and have that heart of gold and that sense of scrappiness and whatever made you great, and I think that that is really really important because that's what troubled me so much that I would leave the people that made me me, that I would leave those family members and those friends that were so pivotal to me as I grew up. The truth is that those people are with me every single day. Like that's just who I am. And I would say that you know anything is possible if you really put your mind to it but you are not going to manifest your way out of anything. You have to take those thoughts and everything that you want and you've got to couple it with something.

对我来说，那就是艰苦的努力。没有秘诀可言。所谓的秘诀就是我有愿景，并将它与极其、极其艰苦的工作结合起来。而这正是你必须做的。

And for me, that has been hard work. There is no secret. The secret is I had the vision and I put it together with some really, really hard work. And that's what you have to do.

我太爱你了。我真的真的爱你，因为你身上有一种坚韧，那种坚韧加上一颗无比宽广的心。所以你说你能改变所处的位置，但不会改变你是谁，这话多美啊。没错，我还是我。

I love you so much. I I I really do because there is a there's just a grit to you, and there's grit plus an amazingly huge heart. And so what a beautiful thing to say that you can change where you are, but that doesn't change who you are. Exactly. I'm still me.

显然。你知道，你之前还提到你不断问自己、提醒自己想成为什么样的女性。你想成为什么样的女性？比如，当

Clearly. You know, you also said something earlier about how you are constantly asking yourself and reminding yourself about the woman you want to be. What kind of woman do you want to be? Like, when

你思考这个问题时。嗯，我认为对我来说，真正重要的是——当你达到成功的境地时，内心会产生一种责任感，对吧？我想这又源于我的出身。我觉得如果你内心仍是那个人——因为我依然感觉自己像15岁的艾玛，那时我在街头游荡，在脑海里编造故事，梦想可能发生的一切。我想影响那些人。我想把我学到的一切、拥有的一切都传递出去，思考如何能培养出百万个艾玛。

you think about it. Well, know, I think that for me, what's been really important and actually you get to a place where you're successful and there's this sense of responsibility in me, right? And again, I think it comes from where I come from that I think if you are still that person inside because I still feel like 15 year old Emma who was like hanging around on the streets just making you know, things up in her head and dreaming of what could happen. I want to impact those people. I wanna get everything that I've learned and everything that I've had and figure out how could there be a million more Emmas.

这就是现在让我魂牵梦萦的事。这就是

Like, that's what consumes me now. That's what

我每天都在思考的事。这也是我们这次对话要探讨的，因为你的故事有太多值得学习的地方——你走了一条非常规的成功之路。

I think about every single day. That's what we're gonna do with this conversation because there is so much to learn from your story because you took a very unconventional path to success.

你可以这么说，梅尔。

You could say that, Mel.

是啊。那么你

Yeah. So were

在学校表现好吗？我学习糟透了。我在学校表现得非常差。知道吗？有趣的是我有严重的阅读障碍。

you good at school? I was terrible at school. I was so bad at school. And you know what? The interesting thing is I'm severely dyslexic.

而我直到二十出头才发现自己有阅读障碍。所以上学对我来说始终是场挣扎。并不是我特别顽劣或不听话，只是学习实在太难了。那时的我心想：如果事情很难，我就把它推开，直接逃避。

And I didn't find out that I was dyslexic until I was in my early twenties. And so school for me was just always a struggle. It wasn't that I was particularly like naughty or disobedient, it just was so hard. And for me, at that point in my life, I was like, if it's difficult, like, I'm just gonna push it away. I'm just gonna react to it.

是的。如果实话实说，我曾有些愤怒情绪需要处理。在我成长的环境里，如果事情不顺，或是某些状况让你感到不适，人们的第一反应就是粗暴地将其扫除——这就是我反复学到的应对方式，用愤怒来反应。所以我不得不刻意训练自己改掉这个习惯。

Yes. And if I'm really honest, know, I had some anger issues that I had to work through because where I come from, if something wasn't working, if something was hitting you in a place of like uncomfortableness, you were just get you were gonna smack it out of the way, you know? And that's what I learned. I learned over and over again to react with anger. And so I really had to train that piece of me out.

我做了很多努力，从19岁就开始接受心理治疗来梳理这些问题。

And I've done a lot of work and I've been in therapy since I was 19 years old figuring those things out.

你当时在为什么事情愤怒？

What were you angry about?

我觉得我成长的环境里，推卸责任是种文化常态。所有问题都能归咎于他人——邻居、政府，唯独不会反思自己。我从未被教导过要承担责任、解决问题，而这些现在恰恰是我人格的基石。

I think that I grew up in a place where blame was just part of the culture. Like, nothing was ever our fault. It was always about somebody else over there, this neighbor, the government, nothing. You would never I was never taught to like take responsibility and figure something out. And I feel like they're the cornerstones of my personality now.

就像我现在常对孩子说的：自己想办法解决。承担责任已成为我的本能，但当初并非如此。我愤怒是因为觉得人生没有捷径，我原以为一切应该更轻松。

It's like Yes. I tell my kids, you know, every I'm like, figure it out. Like, just figure it out. And taking responsibility is something that I've just it's ingrained in me now but it wasn't then and I was angry that there was seemingly no easy path for me. I thought it should have been easier.

我以为拼命努力就该快速见效。要知道我现在42岁，从事热爱的工作才五年。整个职业生涯都在做差不多的工作，勉强算喜欢，但从未有过理想职业。我只是不断向真正热爱的事物靠近。

I thought that because I was working so hard, it should have happened faster. And you have to imagine, you know, I'm 42 now. I've done a job that I love for five years, not longer, for five years. I've spent my entire career doing things that have been okay and I've enjoyed ish but I never had like the dream of the dream job. I've just kept going and going and going to get closer to the thing that it is that I love.

这可能是当下媒体和社会很少探讨的——成功是场持久战。我们营造的'一夜成名'叙事，尤其在创业领域，虽然动听却不真实。我曾觉得世界欠我的，直到19岁才明白：没人欠你什么——那时生活才开始步入正轨。

And I think that that is maybe not something that we talk about enough in you know, in media and society right now. You are on a journey. Like it doesn't just happen. This idea of overnight success that we've built, especially around entrepreneurialism and around starting a business, like it's a lovely story but it's not a career path and it's not really truthful. And so I thought I was owed something and it wasn't till I kinda got to about 19, I was like, nobody owes you nothing that things started to fall into place for me.

听众们肯定深有共鸣，因为我们能识别这种心态。此刻我脑中就浮现两个典型：他们怨天尤人，却完全有能力就地振作。对于陷入这种抱怨心态的人，你会说什么？

I think I just heard the person who's watching and listening share, share, share because we can spot that attitude in other people. Like, I would imagine because I have two people in my mind right now that I'm like, that's the issue. They're sitting around pissed off, blaming the world Mhmm. When they are fully capable of picking themselves up exactly where they are and figuring it out. What would you say to somebody who is stuck in that blame?

特别是那些觉得自己被亏欠的人？因为人很容易陷入这种思维——要么说服自己前路艰难，要么认定世界欠你的，最终被愤怒吞噬。

Does think that they are owed something? Because it's so easy to kinda get stuck in that place yourself where you convince yourself that it's not gonna be easier or you convince yourself that you're owed something and then the anger does consume it.

说实话，有些人确实遭遇不公。有些愤怒并非空穴来风，而是现实困境。比如我作为女性就深有体会...

And let's be honest, like, some people are dealt an unfair hand. Sometimes you've got stuff to be angry about. Sometimes it's not something that you made up in your head. It's your reality. You know, I'm a woman.

我是黑人，在贫困中长大。我觉得自己确实有理由感到些许愤怒，对吧？但话说回来，这种情绪对我并无益处。

I'm black. I grew up poor. I think I had something to be a little bit mad about. Right? Having said that, it wasn't serving me.

我认为最终我们必须自问：我紧抓不放的这些东西，它是最优选择吗？它对我有用吗？如果答案是否定的，你就必须放手。道理就这么简单。对我们真正有用的信念是——我们可以带着这些包袱，但选择放下它们，用内在的力量推动自己前进。

And I think at the end of this, we've gotta say, is this thing that I'm holding onto, is it optimal? Is it working for me? And if it ain't, you gotta let it go. And that's just that. Because what is useful to us is the idea that we're gonna like have this baggage but we're gonna leave it and we're gonna use what is in us to propel ourselves forward.

如果现有的东西让你停滞不前，那就舍弃它。直接转身离开。

If what you've got is keeping you stuck, leave it. Like walk away.

这到底该怎么做到？

How the hell do you do that?

我认为真正的方法是先接纳现实，告诉自己：这就是现状，我接受它，这没关系。我依然要继续前进，绝不让这些阻碍我。这不是我的故事主线。

I think the real way that you do it is by having some acceptance of it and saying, you know what? This is what it is and I accept that and that's okay. And I'm still going to move forward. I'm still not gonna allow this to hold me back. That is not my story.

这根本不是我想要的。

It's just not what I want.

那你当时清楚自己想要什么吗？具体是什么呢？

And did you know what you wanted? Yeah. What did you want?

你知道吗，我只是迫切想逃离当时的处境。我对时尚的痴迷可以追溯到记忆模糊的童年。但对我来说，那是个逃离现实的途径。我在伦敦长大，那个超模时代——娜奥米·坎贝尔、凯特·摩丝，还有那些酷炫的设计师——我把这些杂志里的形象当作精神避难所。那里有值得梦想的东西，有值得期待、值得追求的事物。

You know, I just wanted to wanted to escape my situation. You know, I've been obsessed with fashion since before I can even remember. But for me, it was a means of escape. It was like, you know, I grew up in London, it was all about the supermodels, Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss and all the cool designers and I used that and you know, that industry, those people looking in the magazines as a means of escapism. There was something to dream for, something to, you know, look forward to, something to aspire to.

我拼命想离开那个被贬低的环境，这种渴望难以言表。我想过截然不同的生活，从事真正热爱的工作。因为我成长的环境里，所有人工作都只是为了付账单。真的，我身边没有谁拥有真正充实的事业。

I wanted to get out of where I was so badmouled. Like I can't even tell you. I wanted to live a different life and working something that was enjoyable because again, where I grew up, everyone did a job to pay their bills. Yeah. I didn't know anyone who had fulfilling career.

这种概念甚至不在我们的日常语汇里。所以对我来说，我只是想更接近自己热爱的事物。

You know, it just wasn't even part of the vernacular Right. So I, for me, it's like I just wanted to get closer to something that I loved.

这真是种普遍的经历。哦

That is such a universal experience. Oh

是的，确实如此。

yes, it is.

重要的是要认识到，如果你有这种感觉，就该顺应这种渴望。你不必非得热爱时尚，也不必非要去做播客，但关键在于意识到自己想要更多。这就是一切的起点。

And it's really important to recognize that if you're feeling that way, to lean into the desire. You you don't have to love fashion. You don't have to wanna do a podcast, but there's something about recognizing that you want more. That is where this all begins.

哦，

Oh,

没错。因为只有先意识到这点，你才能为那个‘更多’承担责任。

yeah. Because until you do, you can't take responsibility for what that more might be.

太对了。要知道，作为四个孩子的母亲，我现在唯一在乎的就是孩子们能有所热爱。人必须要有强烈感受的事物。对我而言，过去、现在和永远都将是时尚。这就是我的挚爱。

It's so true. It's you know, again, I'm a mom of four now and the only thing I care about is that my kids care about something. You've gotta have something that you feel strongly about. And for me, it is, was and will ever be, always be fashion. That's just what I loved.

但我们必须记住，人生总要有所期盼。它可以任何形式存在，但你必须设定一个奋斗的目标。我认为这是人类最基本的情感需求——你需要一个驱动力，一个目标，一种期待。如果找不到方向，那就追寻自我吧。

But it's always we have to remember that we have to have something to hope for. Like that can be anything, but you gotta have something in your sights that you are striving for. And I think that that's really important just as a basic human emotion. You gotta have a a thing, a goal, an expectation but something that drives you. And if you cannot figure out what that is, if you don't know what you should pursue, you should pursue yourself.

你应该思考：如何提升自我？如何改善饮食？如何科学锻炼？如何培养好习惯？如何成为更好的自己？

You should figure out how do I make myself better? How do I eat better? How do I exercise better? How do I get better habits? How do I get better?

答案自会浮现。为何这很重要？因为这是生命的关键——我们都在旅途之中。如果这段旅程不是为了让世界比你初见时更美好，不是为了让自己比出发时更优秀，那我们存在的意义何在？这是一场终身的修行。

And that thing will figure itself out. Why is that important? It's the key of life because we're all on a journey and if that journey is not to leave the world better than you found it, for you to be better than you were when you started, then what are we all doing? Right? We're in a lifelong journey.

我痴迷名言，沃伦·巴菲特有句话深得我心：'学得越多，赚得越多'。尽管患有阅读障碍症，我仍如饥似渴地吸收知识——这一切都是为了自我提升、思维拓展。所以我常对人说：这正是你们该做的事。

You know, I'm obsessed with quotes and one of my favorite ones is the more you learn, the more you earn. It's a Warren Buffett quote and I love Warren, I'm obsessed. But I think about that all the time and I am a person that has, and again, despite my dyslexia, I'm gobbling up information all the time. But it is in an effort to make myself better, to grow myself, to expand the way that I think. And so I say to people all the time that that is what you should do.

你应该追求自己可能达到的最高境界。在这个过程中，你会弄明白一切。我加入。梅尔，你绝对已经加入了。

You should pursue the highest version of yourself that you can possibly be. And within that, you will figure it all out. I'm in. Well, you definitely are in, Mel.

拜托。艾玛，有趣的是你如此激情澎湃，以至于我我我总忘记应该问你问题，因为我总在想，还有更多要说的吗？

Come on. I like how What what's interesting, Emma, is you're so on fire that I'm I I keep forgetting that that I should ask you a question because I'm like, is there more coming?

因为继续说吧，艾玛。我就像在MILF橡胶店里一样兴奋。

Because keep going, Emma. I'm like, I'm on the MILF Rubber Shop.

天啊。你知道，我好奇的一点是——我确实同意你的观点，你必须拥有某些东西。另外我想说的是，我对时尚毫无兴趣。我这么说是因为你个人感兴趣的事物不需要对别人有意义。

Oh my god. Well, you know, one of the things that I was curious about because I I do agree with you that if you can you have to have something. And the other thing I wanted to say about it is I have no interest in fashion. And I'm saying that because what you're interested in personally doesn't have to make sense to somebody else. No.

因为它不是为了别人。不。它是为了你自己。如果你没有那个能让你起床的东西——无论是消遣、兴趣、热情还是某个人——那就让自己成为那个理由。

Because it's not for somebody else. No. It's for you. And if you don't have that thing that gets you out of bed, whether it's a distraction or an interest or a passion or a person, then make yourself the reason why.

嗯。

Mhmm.

追求自我的旅程中，第一步是什么？

What is the first step of that journey to pursuing yourself?

这很有趣，因为我认为有几件事可以做。我们先把健康与 wellness 放在一边——虽然它很重要。但让我们谈谈卓越意味着什么，对吧？成为卓越。我真正理解了一个道理：你怎么做一件事，就会怎么做所有事。

So it's really interesting because I think there's a couple of things that you can do. So let's just put health and wellness to the side for one It's a huge part of it. But let's talk about what it means to be excellent, right? To be excellent. I really understand the power of like how you do anything is how you do everything.

嗯。这种追求卓越的理念——认真对待你早晨醒来的方式，认真准备早餐的方式，认真对待工作的方式，看待他人的方式。比如，你是简单说“早上好”，还是说“早上好，你好吗？”并且倾听并回应？所有这些细节都很重要。

Mhmm. And this idea of excellence, of taking it seriously how you wake up in the morning, of taking it seriously how you prepare your breakfast, taking it seriously how you show up in work, how you see people. Like, do you go, morning, or do you go, morning, how are you? And do you listen and respond back? Like, all of these things matter.

它们关乎你是谁。它们关乎别人如何看待你，以及你如何被看待。当我在熟食店做三明治时，我做出了最好的三明治。当我在公关公司的储藏室包装礼盒时，我会把那些礼盒叠得漂漂亮亮，包装纸精美，贴纸居中——我用卓越的标准完成每一件小事。正是这些让人被你吸引。

They matter to who you are. They matter to how you're seen, and they matter to how you you're viewed. When I you know made sandwiches in a deli, I made the best sandwich. When I worked in the cupboard in a PR agency packing cloves, I would fold those cloves beautifully in my boxes, my tissue was amazing, my sticker was in the middle, I would do it with excellence. Every little thing because that is what makes people gravitate towards you.

当你认真对待所做的每件事，并对任何事物都怀有一份自豪感时，这种态度会吸引他人。要知道，在获得理想工作前，你往往需要经历许多底层工作。人生很长，分章节展开。所以我常对人们说：无论身处何地、从事何事，都要追求卓越，因为这种态度具有某种无形的吸引力。

When you take everything that you do seriously and you take an element of pride in anything, it draws people in. And you know, you have to work a lot of dog jobs before you get the thing. Life is very very long and it goes in chapters. And so what I say to people is be excellent at where you're at, at whatever you're doing because that has some kind of invisible magnetic pull.

特里·克鲁斯讲述过他在退出NFL后身无分文的惊人故事。他带着妻子和四个孩子搬到洛杉矶，本想成为插画师。结果数字插画技术突然兴起，他陷入绝望找不到工作，最终获得了一份清扫工作—— literally 在电影片场当保洁员。

Terry Crews tells this incredible story about being dead broke after getting out of the NFL. And he's moved his wife and four kids to LA, and he thinks he's gonna be an illustrator. And then all of a sudden, the, like, digital illustration stuff is happening. And he is at the end of his rope depressed, can't get work, and he gets a job sweeping. Literally a custodian on on, like, a movie lot.

他通过不断自问来保持动力：如果有人付我百万美元来扫地，我会怎么扫？

And he kept himself going by saying, How would I sweep this floor if somebody was paying me a million dollars to do

呢？

it? And

在我看来，你刚才的论述给出了最绝妙的建议——当你不知从何开始时，不妨设想：如果明早醒来就追求卓越，会是怎样的画面？如果有人付你百万美元只为让你起床整理床铺，你会怎么做？那样的清晨该是什么模样？

to me, what you're saying is if you simply don't know where to start, you just gave the most brilliant advice on the planet. What would it look like to wake up tomorrow morning and start the day with excellence? What would it look like to wake up tomorrow morning? And how would you do it if somebody was paying you a million to just get out of bed and make your bed? What would your morning look like?

内在会发生什么变化？因为当你的内在频率真实改变时——就像散发着不同的能量频率——人们自然会被吸引。比如你带着微笑醒来，或许对身边人说...

What happens internally? Because there there is the thing that people are drawn to you because it is true. Because the vibration within you literally changes. Like you vibrate a different energy. If you wake up with a smile on your face and you say, maybe if somebody's in the

早安亲爱的，我给你泡了茶。这传递着什么？是在说：我珍视你，清晨如此美好。

bed with you, good morning, darling. I made you a cup of tea. Like, what does that say? That says, I value you. The morning is good.

我们共处此刻，我刚刚认可了你的存在。谁不渴望这样醒来？若身旁无人，你也可以伸个懒腰，换上体面睡衣以示自我关爱，整理好床铺离开时满意地说声：搞定。这就是理想状态。我常这样教育孩子——

And here we are together and I just acknowledged you. Who doesn't wanna wake up like that? And if nobody's next to you and you stretch your arms like this and you put nice pajamas on because you care about yourself and you make your bed and you walk away and you're like, bed. That is like that's the dream. And that's what I say to my kids.

（虽然我会偷偷重铺他们的床，这不是重点）。关键在于：你如何做小事，就如何做一切。必须从小处着手，当你一无所有时——我深有体会——这招很灵，因为能定下基调让人注意到你。

I remake their beds by the way. But that's not the point. Know, it's like how you do anything is how you do everything and that is the key. You gotta start you've got to sweat the small stuff and you have to start somewhere. And when you have nothing, and I have been there, that works because that starts to set the tone and people notice.

人们真的真的会注意到。

They really really notice.

我想回到过去。

I wanna go back in time.

这是什么味道？这是你17岁时的照片

What is this smell? It's a photo of you when

你17岁那年。

you're 17 years old.

哦，看。这两位依然是我的挚爱，下周我就要在伦敦和斯特拉、香奈儿共进晚餐了。

Oh, look. And these two are still my darling I'm literally having dinner with these two in London next week, Stella and Chanel.

好吧，我要把这张照片作为你来参加播客的礼物送给你。你17岁。刚离开家。就在那个时刻，你生活中发生了什么？

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you that photo as a as your present for being here on the podcast. You're 17 years old. Had just left. I just I just left. About that moment and what was happening in your life.

嗯，说实话那是我人生低谷期。我16岁离家出走，因为家里的情况已经无法忍受。我搬到了离原住处一个半小时车程的地方，住进可怕的廉价公寓，没有冰箱也没有烤箱。

Well, know, I have to say that was a crushing time for me because I left home when I was 16. The circumstances at my house had just become untenable. And I left home and home was an hour and a half away from where I lived. So I get this like terrible, you know, high rise apartment. I had no fridge, no oven.

我们把牛奶放在阳台上——在伦敦的低温下，这样能让牛奶保鲜两天。当时我考入了伦敦时装学院，相当于你们的高中。我16岁入学，17岁辍学。你能想象我为了考上付出了多少努力，所以辍学绝不是因为懒散。

We kept our milk on the on the balcony because in London, it's that cold that you could kinda keep milk fresh for two days if you left it on the balcony. And I enrolled at the London College of Fashion. So this for you guys is what you would call senior high. I'm 16, dropped out at 17 and you can imagine I fought so hard to get into that college. And so to drop out wasn't like I can't be bothered.

而是实在坚持不下去了。我无法维持收支平衡，算不清交通费，不知道该怎么解决吃饭问题。每周要上四天课，其余时间都得打工，根本周转不开。

It was that I couldn't continue. I couldn't make ends meet. I couldn't figure out the train fare. I couldn't figure out how I would eat, how, you know, the the couple of days a week that I had to work because you're in college four days and then I was working every day. I just couldn't make it work.

用现在的话说就是账算不平。这让我非常沮丧。但有趣的是，我的人生反而从此开始步入正轨。我开始思考：该怎么继续学习？如何靠近梦想？那时候可以到处找实习机会。

The math wasn't mapping as we would say now. And so it was a bitter disappointment. But what was interesting is that actually that's when my life started to fall into place because for me, I was like, okay, how do I keep learning? How do I keep close to the dream? And in those days, you could go around and find work placements.

于是我决定免费打工，尽可能接近理想职业。从公关公司到设计师展厅，我做过各种底层工作。梅尔，我竭尽全力争取这些实习机会，那时候没有电子邮件，只能到处寄信。

And so I thought to myself, I'll just work for free. I'll get as close as I can to the career that I think I want. And I went from, you know, PR agency to designer showroom like from one terrible bottom of the barrel job to another. And you know Mel, I would do everything I could to get these work placements. Like I was sending it, you know, because again in those days there wasn't emails so it was just sending letters out Yeah.

而且没有人回复我的信件。于是我开始亲自递送信件，因为我想，也许他们根本没收到。这有点荒谬。偶尔会有转机出现。

And nobody was responding to my letters. And so I started hand delivering letters because I was like, maybe they're just not getting them. It was kind of ridiculous. Every now and again, there would be a break.

其实还挺聪明的做法。

Kind of brilliant actually.

对我来说这只是固执，我甚至没想过问题出在我身上。你知道，我从不往心里去。我不认为自己不够好，也不觉得自己不配。我想他们没收到信是因为我太优秀了，我有太多可以贡献的，而且我会非常努力。

I mean, you know, for me it was just tenacity and I couldn't even imagine that it was because of me. You know, I never took it personally. I didn't think I'm not good enough. I didn't think, you know, I'm not worthy. I thought they didn't get the letter because I'm so good and I have so much to offer and I'm gonna work so hard.

他们肯定还不知道。所以我就不停地尝试、尝试、再尝试，直到有人说，好的。行吧。比如，进来吧。你可以在这里免费工作几周。

They just must not know yet. And so I just kept going and going and going and going until somebody said, yes. Okay. Like, come in. You can work here for free for a couple of weeks.

对于那些正在听的人，他们可能会想，我需要那种固执。因为我发了一封邮件后就坐等，然后开始怀疑自己有问题。

And for somebody who's listening, who's like, I need that. I need that tenacity because I send an email and then I sit back and then I think something's wrong with me.

从来都不是你的问题。梅尔，从来都不是。这是我特别希望女性明白的重要一点。我们作为一个群体，已经沉迷于追求完美，认为一切必须完美，必须像电影里那样。但这根本不是我的经历。

It's never about you. Mel, it's never ever about you. And this is the big thing that I want specifically women to understand. We are have become as a group obsessed with this idea of perfection, that it always has to be perfect, that it always has to be as it is in the movies. And that is just not it's not my experience.

我的整个旅程并非一帆风顺。你知道，有时会有好事发生，然后什么都没有，真的什么都没有。事实上，有时还会倒退。但你不能往心里去，因为这从来都不是你的问题。你可以失败，那只是事情本身的问题。

My whole journey has not been linear. It has been, you know, one great thing happened and then like nothing, literally nothing. In fact, sometimes it just went down. But you cannot take it personally because it's never about you. You know, you can fail and it's just the thing.

那件事没成。不是你的问题。不是你不行。不是你有什么毛病。所以对我来说，我会拍拍身上的灰，告诉自己，那不是我的时刻。

That thing didn't work out. It is not that you don't work. It is not that you have something wrong with you. So for me, I would just like dust myself off. I'd be like, that wasn't my moment.

那不属于我。时机未到。继续前进就是了。

That wasn't for me. It's not my time. And just keep going.

嗯，我也能想象，如果你还面临着买食物和付房租的压力，你其实别无选择。当你入不敷出或勉强维持时，那种压力让你无法停下脚步。

Well, I would also imagine that if you're also feeling the pressure of buying food and paying rent, you also don't have a choice. Like there's a certain level of stress that you feel if you cannot make the ends meet or you barely do because you can't stop.

别无选择。

Have no choice.

你别无选择。

You have no choice.

你别无选择。

You have no choice.

所以有件事我想请教你，因为你关于卓越的见解令人震撼且千真万确。你如何追求卓越而非陷入完美的陷阱？比如，卓越与女性常陷入的完美主义陷阱之间有何区别？

And so one thing I wanted to ask you because what you said about excellence was mind blowing and 1000% accurate. How do you pursue excellence versus the trap of being perfect? Like, what's the difference between excellence and that perfectionism trap that women get stuck in?

这个问题问得太妙了。我认为你必须明白——虽然这话听起来可能有点自我设限——我们每个人都有不同的衡量标准。对吧？对你而言的完美，对我未必是完美。

That is such a beautiful question. I think that you have to learn, and this is going to sound, and I don't want it to sound self limiting, we all have a different measuring stick. Right? Yeah. What is perfect to you is not perfect to me.

我觉得我们必须对自己保持现实。我这一生所做的，就是真正审视自我——不参考媒体，不刷社交媒体，不攀比杂志上的标准。我只思考：基于我的出身和本质，我的卓越版本是什么？对我而言什么才算足够好？

And I think that we have to be realistic with ourselves. And so what I've done in my life is really think about myself. I'm not thinking, I'm not looking in the media, I'm not on social, I'm not in a magazine trying to live up to that version. I'm like, what is my version of excellence based on where I come from and who I am? What's good enough for me?

因为我不拿自己和任何人比较。记得我们都喜欢的那句话吗？真正的较量是你与自己之间的。

Because I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. You know? You and I both love that same quote. Right? It's like, it's you against you.

没错。

Yes.

正是如此。这就需要你极度诚实和自省，因为一旦陷入比较游戏，你就永远无法满足，永远得不到快乐。

That's it. And that's where you have to be very, very honest and very self reflective because if you are gonna be in the comparison game, you will never be satisfied. You will never be happy.

明白了。我想我刚刚领悟了关键区别。让我复述你的观点验证是否理解正确——完美主义是当你过度关注外部标准时。

Okay. I think I just got it. I wanna extract what you just said and give it back to you and see if if I heard you correctly because I think I just got the difference. You ready? So perfectionism is when you are focused on the outside.

完美主义是当你衡量他人对你所做之事的看法。卓越则源于内心，因为它关乎你投入的努力，以及这份努力对你而言是否足够。女士，这一点非常关键。这是个绝妙的区分。我从未这样思考过，因为我总是将完美主义——尤其是许多女性深陷其中的这种特质——视为一种内在的自我要求。

Perfectionism is when you are measuring what other people are going to think about what you just did. Excellence is on the inside because excellence is about the effort in and whether or not the effort that you put in is good enough for you. That right there, ma'am. That's really a great distinction. I've never thought about it that way because I've I've always thought about, like, perfectionism because so many women in particular struggle with it as something that you're doing internally.

不。它是从四面八方无时无刻向你袭来的。作为女性，你必须非常非常小心，别让它开始定义你，别让它渗透进你的内心。明白吗？

No. It's it's coming at you Yes. From every angle all the time. And you have to be very, very careful as a woman that that doesn't start to define you, that that doesn't seep into you. Right?

因为一旦它侵入内心，你就陷入麻烦了。知道吗？我有位了不起的朋友黛安·冯芙丝汀宝，她是个极致疯狂又不可思议的女性。她常说要警惕人生最重要的关系是与自我的关系。所以你必须万分小心，别让你最大的敌人住在你的两耳之间。对吧？

Because the minute that goes inside you, you're in trouble. And you know, I have this great friend, Diane Von Furstenberg, she's the most insane and incredible woman ever. But she talks about this idea of the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself. And so you gotta be real careful that your biggest enemy isn't living between your two ears. Right?

就像这场永不停歇的内心对话，它必须是善意的，必须是充满同理心的。这些本是我们常给予他人的品质，但一切都要从你自身开始。

It's like this conversation that goes on all day that's relentless has to be kind. It has to be compassionate. It has to be empathetic. These are all things that we give away to other people if you're a good person all the time. But it starts with you.

你首先要将这些给予自己。当你开始这样做，当你建立日常练习告诉自己'我要这样对待自己'，当我对自我说话时——

You have to give that stuff to yourself first and foremost. And when you start to do that and when you start a daily practice that says, I am gonna behave like this to myself. When I speak

——就要保持这样的态度。这会重塑你。其实，用这种方式与自己对话本身就是一种卓越。是的，对吧？

to myself, this is how I'm gonna be. That rewires you. Well, even talking to yourself that way is in itself its own form of excellence. Yes. Right?

因为你在外界也以这种卓越标准待人。所以用友善、鼓励和共情的方式与自己对话，是与自我相处的卓越形式，这个观点真美好。对于那些刚开启职业旅程正在摸索的人，你会说什么？

Because you operate that way in the world, that level of excellence with other people. And so it's a beautiful way to think about talking to yourself in a kind and cheering and empathetic way is a form of excellence with yourself. I love that. What would you say to somebody that is kind of at the beginning of the journey in their career right now trying to figure it out?

梅尔，说实话，我会说所有你渴望的都在你努力奔赴的彼岸。你只需要持续行动。一切都在那里等着你，但前提是你要在行动中被它们发现。

You know, Mel, honestly, what I would say is that everything you want is on the other side of what you're working towards. You just gotta be working. It's all there. Everything you want is there. It's just gotta find you working and that's it.

你无法通过空想获得所求，不能靠许愿，不能指望侥幸。你必须行动。这正是完美主义陷阱的毒性所在——如果你认为必须做到完美，或必须惊天动地，或必须成就伟业，其实根本不必如此。

You can't think your way into what you want. You can't wish it. You can't hope for it. You gotta do. And that's where this perfectionist trap is poisonous for us because if you think that you have to do it perfectly or it has to come in some, you know, spectacular way or this thing that you wanna do has to be really big, it doesn't.

就像只要开始就好。先做点什么，要明白只要你在行动，只要保持前进势头，只要朝着正确方向行进，终会抵达目的地，但你——

It's like just start. Just do something and know that if you are doing, if you have forward momentum, if you are moving in the correct direction of travel, you will get there, but you

必须行动起来。但如果你不确定方向是否正确呢？比如，我...我...然后你...

have to be moving. And what about if you don't know if you're in the right direction? Like, I'm I'm Then you

只管前进。因为我从来都不知道。事实是有时我确实走错了方向。但至少我在前进，因为只要你够聪明，沿途就会收集到各种信息。

just go. Because I never knew. I never knew. And the fact is sometimes I wasn't going in the right direction. But at least I was going somewhere because what happens is you pick up all this information along the way if you're smart.

当你犯错时，又回到那个问题：我如何与自己对话？如果你像对待好友那样对待自己——想象朋友搞砸了，你不会说'你这头蠢驴'，而是说'亲爱的，我们聊聊发生了什么'。

And when you make mistakes, again, it comes back to that idea of like, how am I speaking to myself? Because if you're if you treat yourself like a good friend, imagine that your friend messes up, right, she messes up. You don't go, you absolute silly cow. You go, darling, let's talk about this. What happened?

无论如何我都爱你。我们一起复盘：问题出在哪里？下次如何改进？这就是你该给自己的支持。

I love you anyway. Let's go through it. Where were the mistakes? How are we gonna do things differently next time? That's what you have to do for yourself.

所以要明白这是必经之路。我给自己建立了'三分之一法则'的心理训练，这真的帮了我大忙...这个法则是...

So know that that is inevitable. And you know, I've kind of trained myself around this rule of thirds that I have in my head and that has really, really, really helped me to What's the rule

三分之一法则？

of thirds?

这个法则是我年轻时听说的，现在几乎奉为圭臬。当你追求梦想或面对挑战时，大约三分之一时间你会感到快乐，三分之一觉得'生活还行'，剩下三分之一会非常痛苦。

So the rule of thirds is something that I remember hearing this when I was a bit younger and it's like I almost live by it. So if you are doing something difficult, if you're chasing a dream, if you are on the road to whatever it is, you are going to be happy about a third of the time. And the other third of the time, you are gonna be like, you know, life is kinda alright. And the final third of the time, you're gonna feel terrible now.

听起来像婚姻生活。

It sounds like a marriage.

确实也适用婚姻。关键是：我们不该期待永远快乐。现在社会总把生活包装成Instagram式的完美幻象，但事实并非如此。要学会接受——知道吗？

Basically. It can be applied to marriage too. But you know, the point is that we shouldn't feel good all the time, right? It's just part of how we're conditioned right now to imagine that like life is this like, you know, Instagram reel of wonderfulness, and that ain't the truth. So if you can learn to accept, do you know what?

在那些糟糕透顶的日子里，你要告诉自己：没关系，这正是我该经历的。因为既有低谷日，也有平淡日，还会有高光日。偏离轨道也无妨，只要记得你能回归。而春风得意时更要保持谦卑，因为你知道霉运也会再来。这是保持平衡的绝妙方式。

On those really bad days when you feel really crappy, you're like, that's okay. In fact, I'm exactly where I need to be because I'm gonna have those days and I'm gonna have some of the middling days and then I'm gonna have these great days. And so if you go off track, that's alright because you have to know that you can come back. And when you're on fire, you also better be real humble because you're gonna know that those stinky times are coming too. So it's a really lovely way to keep yourself in balance.

我大概每天都在思考这个。三分之一，三分之一，再三分之一。

And I think about it probably daily. A third and a third and a third.

三分法则。我太喜欢了。现在我也要每天琢磨它。而且我知道听众也会每天思考，并把这个三分法则分享给他们关心的人——因为当你经历糟糕阶段时，确实会以为这种状态将永远持续下去。

The rule of thirds. I love it. Now I'm gonna think about it daily. And I know that the person that is listening is gonna think about it daily and share that rule of third with the people that they care about because it is true that when you're going through the crappy part, you think this is gonna be that way forever.

没错。

Yes.

虽然我们都听过'这只是暂时的'，但我就是钟爱这种明确的法则。

And, we all hear, Oh, it's temporary. But I love a rule. I love a rule.

我...我也钟爱法则。

I a I love a rule.

所以我喜欢对自己说：即便经历了糟糕的十年，这也不过是三分之一的阶段性低谷而已。

And so I love being able to say to myself, even though it's been a crappy decade, this is just a third of a third. Like, it's just one third of

你说'十年'这点我很欣赏，因为人们总是高估一年能完成的事，却低估十年间可能发生的巨变。今年7月4日就是我在美国的第八年，现在的我早已脱胎换骨——这八年蜕变其实源于之前三四十年的人生积淀。我们必须正视事物发展真正需要的时间维度。年轻人总是容易陷入急功近利的状态。

I what I'm gonna love that you say a decade because people tend to overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what can actually happen in a decade. I have been in America for eight years this July 4 and I'm a different Emma, right? Like that eight years didn't just happen in eight years, it happened the thirty years before, the forty years almost before, right? So we have to think about like what it actually takes and time. And I feel like as a young person, you can be in such a rush.

不必匆忙。人生漫长，故事总在章节中展开。年轻人只需告诉自己：我愿持续耕耘，并接受旅途的曲折。有时前进，有时驻足，偶尔倒退——所有状态都很好。

It's like, don't be in a rush. Life is long. Life happens in chapters. And so as a young person, all you need to say to yourself is I am willing to work and I'm willing to accept the direction of travel. And it will be going forward some of the time and it will be standing on a spot some of the time and it will be going backwards some of the other time and all of it is fine.

天啊艾玛，我根本不想暂停。你的每句话都让我欲罢不能！我们还没聊到你作为联合创始人那些市值十亿企业的背后故事呢。先稍事休息...

Emma, oh my god. I don't wanna take a break. I I could listen to you nonstop. We haven't even gotten into the backstory on these billion dollar companies you're the cofounder of. So let's take a pause.

让我们给赞助商留些时间，也请你把这段对话分享给所有人——特别是二三十岁的年轻人，那些心怀梦想却自我设限的朋友。让艾玛点燃他们。这绝对是值得反复聆听的对话，你分享的就是无价礼物。千万别走开。

Let's give our sponsors a chance to share a few words, and I want you to share this with everybody that you know, particularly people in their twenties and their thirties. Anybody in your life that has always had a big dream but keeps standing in their own way. Let Emma inspire them. This is one of these conversations I know I'm gonna be listening to on repeat, so it is a gift to anyone that you share it with. And don't you dare go anywhere.

艾玛和我将在短暂休息后等你回来，所以请别走开。欢迎回来，我是你的朋友梅尔。今天，我们将从艾玛·格里德那里获取灵感、动力以及一步步打造令你自豪生活的蓝图。艾玛，你能谈谈年轻人感受到的那种必须把所有事都塞进生活的压力吗？

Emma and I will be waiting for you after the short break, so stay with me. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. And today, you and I are getting inspiration, motivation, and the step by step blueprint to creating a life that you are proud of from none other than Emma Greed. So Emma, could you speak to the pressure that people feel when they're young to just jam it all in?

比如我在二三十岁人群身上看到的一种现象是，他们觉得必须完成所有事：必须旅行、必须做这个、必须找到那个人、必须规划梦想职业。

Like one of the things that I see from people in their twenties and early thirties is that, I gotta do it all. I gotta travel. I gotta do this. I gotta find the person. I gotta figure out my dream career.

我很欣赏你建议年轻人放慢节奏的观点。让我告诉你——

And I love that you're saying when you are young, just slow down. Well, let me tell you

我真正相信有效的方法。听着，我们总是太过匆忙。但话说回来，二十多岁正是尝试各种事情的黄金时期，这是我深信不疑的。

what I really believe works. Tell me. We are in too much of a rush. Having said that, your twenties is the time to try some stuff. And that is what I really believe in.

我现在看着眼前几位朋友，可以把他们分成两类：那些如今四十多岁取得成功的人，和他们二十多岁时做了什么——他们是否全力以赴？是否承担风险？是否非常努力？是否尝试过各种事情？

I could look at all of my friends now, got a couple of them in front of me, and I could draw a line down the middle of those that are successful now in their forties and what they did in their twenties. Did they did they like go for it? Did they take a bunch of risks? Did they work really hard? Did they try a bunch of stuff?

而那些可能...你知道...把派对生活延续得稍久的人。当你没有责任时对吧？现在大多数人要孩子都比较晚，像房贷这样的财务责任也承担得较晚。二十多岁就是该去尝试的年纪。

And those that perhaps, you know, kept the partying going maybe a little too long. When you don't have responsibility, right? Most of us have children a little bit later now. You don't take on responsibilities in terms of financial responsibilities like a mortgage until a little bit later now. Your twenties are the time to try.

我记得二十多岁时很多人对我说：你工作太拼了，需要多玩乐。但事实是，如果没有那时的拼搏，就不会有现在的我。是的，所以你必须尝试些事情。

And I remember a lot of people saying to me in my twenties that you work too hard. You need to have more fun. The truth is if I didn't do the twenties I did, I wouldn't be where I am now. Yes. And so you've gotta try a few things.

再次强调，不要指望所有尝试都能成功，但人生确实存在这样一个阶段——适合下些赌注、多方向探索、突破舒适区。这就是那个时刻，那个十年。因为三十多岁你会用来厘清方向、投入努力，而四十岁时希望能精通某个领域并开始自主选择。

And again, don't think that they're all gonna work out but there is a time in your life where it makes sense to put a few bets out there, to throw a few things at the wall, to like go outside of your comfort zone. Like that is the moment, that's the decade. Because you're gonna spend your thirties like figuring it out like what do I actually wanna do and putting in the hard work. Yep. And then hopefully by the time that you get to your forties, you've become proficient at something and you can start to choose your choice.

但根据我的经验，

But in my experience,

在那之前不会。有趣的是，我看着42岁的你，想到自己在42岁时负债80万美元，房产被扣押，丈夫的餐厅生意倒闭，失业状态，三个不到10岁的孩子——那正是我人生崩塌的时刻。

not before that. Well, what's interesting is I'm sitting here looking at you, and you're 42, and I'm thinking, god, at 42, I was $800,000 in debt. I had liens on the house. My husband's restaurant business was going over. I was unemployed, three kids under 10, about to like, that's when my life fell apart.

看看现在的你。不开玩笑。确实花了一些时间。是的。需要花些时间。

And look at you now. No shit. So it took Take some time. Yeah. Take take some time.

不过我还想指出一点，你现在42岁。当年大学辍学是二十五年前的事了。我想提醒正在聆听观看的你，你最初也说过，真正享受自己做的事只有最近五年。事实如此。这非常重要，因为我们很少讨论这一点——追求梦想的过程不会总是充满乐趣。

And one of the other things I wanna point out though is you're 42. And when you drop out of college, that's twenty five years ago. And I wanna remind you as you're listening and watching that you also said in the very beginning, I've only really enjoyed what I'm doing for the last five years. Facts. And it's really important because we don't talk about it enough that it isn't going to be fun.

嗯哼。它不会全程都是派对。在探索和寻找方向的旅程中，你不会一直感觉自己在追逐激情。你职业生涯中另一个有趣的点是，从辍学那一刻起，你花了十年时间拼命努力，试图找到任何能让你免费接近时尚圈的机会。免费的啊。

Mm-mm. It isn't going to be a party the whole time. You are not gonna feel like you are pursuing your passion as you are on the journey and figuring it out. And one of the things that also is interesting about your career though is it took you ten years between that moment where you dropped out and you're hustling and you're trying to find anybody that will let you just be somewhat near fashion for free. For free.

做任何事只为靠近心中所求。你能谈谈那个时刻吗？当你感觉'天啊，我坚持这么久却毫无进展，现在的工作只是勉强糊口'。

Doing anything so you can be close to the thing that you want. Would you speak to that moment where you feel like, oh my god. Like, I've been at this for a while and I'm just not getting traction. And the job that I have is paying the bills.

嗯。

Mhmm.

感激能

Grateful to

够

be able to

支付账单。我不是要贬低这份维持生计的工作，但它与我曾经的预期并不相符。你如何保持动力？当最初的努力看似毫无进展时，如何让梦想持续燃烧？

pay my bills. Like, I'm not gonna, like, diss the job that's paying the bills, but it's not aligned with where I thought I would be. How do you stay motivated? How do you keep the dream alive when the first things that you're doing don't really feel like they're going anywhere?

没错。说实话，我们都有那样的阶段。我经历过很多类似工作，真的。我始终尝试在脑海中构建——或许有点自我安慰——但我努力寻找那些微光，明白吗？

Yeah. And let's be honest, we all have those times. I had a lot of jobs like that. I really, really did. And what I've always tried to do is find, maybe make up a little bit in my head, but I've tried to find the glimmers, right?

比如当前工作中哪些部分是有价值的？假设你做着文职类的办公室工作，你正在学习如何有序工作，了解后台支持的必备技能，观察周围发生的一切。

Like where is something in here useful? So you're working, you know, like an office job with some kind of clerical role. You are learning to be organized. You are learning what it takes to be the back office support. You are looking at everything that's happening around you.

梅尔，让我告诉你，这一点我确信无疑。正是因为我做过所有糟糕的工作，经历过那些处境，才让我成为一位优秀的领导者。因为如今，我不仅能理解身边每个人的价值——那些工作我都亲身做过？我不仅知道需要付出什么，更明白那种感受。而我的员工也知道我感同身受。

And let me tell you, Mel, and I know this for sure. The fact that I have done all the bad jobs, the fact that I have been there is what makes me a great leader. Because today, not only can I appreciate every single person around me, I've done those jobs? I know not just what it takes but I know how it feels. And my staff know that I know how it feels.

经历过基层历练的领导者会有截然不同的共情能力。所以我不仅会捕捉那些微光时刻，告诉做着看似枯燥工作的人'每份工作都有价值，你只需发现并积少成多'。如今我的经验就像所有学习碎片的集合——做三明治送报纸时学会了客户服务，领悟清晨的力量；在时装公司仓库工作时，学会了挂着笑容完成讨厌的工作。

And there is a different appreciation level for somebody who comes into leadership having done all of the things. And so not only do I look for those glimmers and tell somebody that this job that you're doing that feels pretty mundane isn't because there is value in all work, you just have to find that and you take small pieces. And I think about my experience now as it's a collective of all the things that I've learned. I learned customer service when I was making the sandwiches and when I was delivering the papers, I learned the power of the mornings. And when I worked in the closet at the fashion company, I learned how to do a really horrible job with a smile on my face, just put it on.

所有这些碎片终将引领你去往某处。你必须牢记：人生很长，每段经历都在为未来铺路。就像所有感情经历，当下或许艰难，但回首时你会明白每件事发生的意义。

And it's like all of those little pieces will take you somewhere and you have to keep in your head and tell yourself life is long and whatever I'm doing, it all adds up to something. You know, just like all your relationship experiences and it can feel hard when you're in them but you can look back and say there was a reason that thing happened.

是的。

Yes.

但你要明白，后见之明不仅是智慧，更是塑造我们本质的关键。所以必须时刻铭记：此刻经历都在引领你走向某个地方。

But you've gotta understand hindsight isn't just a fine thing. It's the thing. It's what makes us who we are eventually. So you've just gotta keep that in the front of your mind. This is leading somewhere.

每件事都在引领你去向某处。每件事。所有细节都是。

Everything is leading somewhere. Everything. All parts of it.

完全同意。你早期就敢于推开通往机遇的门，甚至直接走进那些自觉不配进入的场合。当你产生'我不属于这里'或'这可能行不通'的念头时，是什么让你保持自信的？

Absolutely. You know, you started pushing on doors early. I mean, you literally would just walk right into the room and many rooms where you probably felt like you didn't belong. What gave you the confidence to stay when you would get into a room where you're like, I'm not sure I belong here or I'm not sure this is gonna work? The way

我的成长经历很特别，因为自信从来不是我的困扰。我被了不起的母亲抚养长大，她教导我：'艾玛，你不比任何人优越，但也没人比你高贵。'这句话深植我心。所以即便带着糟糕的学历提前辍学，即便有严重阅读障碍，当我走进任何场合时，我都清楚自己的天赋、优势，明白每个人能贡献的价值。

I was raised was really interesting because confidence has never really been my problem. I was raised by, you know, my wonderful mom. And she taught me, you know, she was like, Emma, you're not better than anybody else, but nor is anyone better than you. And that stayed with me. And so when I walk into a room now then, even though with my terrible education, even school before I should, even though I'm highly dyslexic, I know my gifts, I know my strengths, and I know that whatever it is that any of us has to bring is valuable.

每个人都有独特价值。你必须牢牢锚定这个信念，相信自己拥有特别之处。即便不算独特，那也是你仅有的筹码，所以要极致发挥。

There is value in all of us. And so again, you have to really like anchor into that piece of you. Like you have to. You have to believe that you have something special, unique. And even if it's not special and unique, it's what you have to bring so make the most of it.

想办法突破。

Figure it out.

想办法解决。

Figure it out.

想办法解决。整理好一切，带着自信进去，至少房间里没有另一个你，对吧？那个空间里没有第二个你。所以你带进去的任何东西都是独一无二的，因为不存在另一个你。

Figure it out. Package it up and go in with some confidence that at least there's just not another you. Right? There's not another you in that room. So whatever you are bringing into that space is something that's not there because there isn't another you.

你必须深入仔细地思考那些是什么，以及你为组织带来了什么，这些我都做过。但一开始，你只需要相信自己有独特的东西可以贡献。

And you have to think deeply and carefully about what those things are and what you add to an organization and I've done all of that. But in the beginning, you've just got to believe that you have something unique to bring.

嗯，你之前也提到了卓越，当你以卓越的水平工作时，即使是在你无法忍受的糟糕工作中管理能量，人们也会被吸引。是的，被吸引。

Well, you also touched on this earlier about excellence and how when you operate with a level of excellence, even if it's managing the energy at the crappy job you can't stand, people are drawn to it. Yes. Drawn to it.

确实如此。

They really are.

你有什么建议可以帮助自己进入那个房间吗？你懂我的意思吗？比如，很多人渴望创业、筹集资金、展示他们的艺术、被注意到或获得面试机会？有没有什么方法或策略，或者你发现的某个例子，关于如何进入那个房间？因为你之前说过，我只是想靠近任何东西，随便什么。

Do you have any advice for how you can get yourself into a room? You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of people that are aspiring to launch a business or raise some money or just put their art out there or be noticed or get the interview? Is there something, some move that you can make or some way that you have found or maybe an example of somebody that got your attention about how you get into a room? Because you were literally like, I just wanna be adjacent to whatever, whatever, blah.

是的。我要去敲那扇门。我不是

Yeah. I'm gonna knock on that door. I'm not

是的。梅尔，首先你得摆脱自己的思维束缚，因为我和很多人聊过，他们总是说，我一直在尝试这个，想了很久。我就问，你做了什么？你做了什么？你打电话给商店了吗？

Yeah. I mean, the first thing, Mel, is you gotta get out of your own head because I speak to a lot of people like, I've been trying this thing and I've been, like, thinking about this for a long time. It's like, what did you do? Like what did you do? Did you call the store?

你想在商店里卖你的东西。你打电话给他们了吗？还是只是希望有人注意到你？你想成为艺术家吗？你在创作艺术吗？

You wanted to sell your thing in the store. Do you call them? Or do you just hoping for somebody to notice you? Did you like you wanna be an artist? Like are you making art?

你有把你的作品展示出来吗？再说一次，没有人会主动寻找你。没有人。所以你必须再次承担责任，开始行动，去做点什么。这又回到了害怕另一边的想法。

Are you putting your work out there? Again, nobody is like looking for you. No one. So you again have to take responsibility and start like get out of the starting blocks and go and do something. And again, it comes down to this idea of fearing what is on the other side.

害怕被拒绝。害怕听到‘不’。害怕事情行不通。所以你必须跨越这个心理障碍，明白这些情况确实存在且很可能发生，但那也没关系。老实说，我认为人们最大的阻碍就是迈出第一步。

Fear of rejection. Fear of being told no. Fear that it won't work. So you gotta get past that point and know that that's all there and that may well happen but that's okay too. And I honestly think that big block that people have is getting started.

因为感到极度脆弱而无法开始。你不能写个商业计划书，归档后就宣称‘我要开始创业了，因为我有计划’。计划里有什么内容？你得行动起来，把东西做出来。

Feeling so vulnerable that they can't even start. You can't write a business plan and then file that business plan and then go, I'm gonna I'm gonna start this business because I've got a plan. It's like what's in the plan? You've gotta go. You gotta get the thing made.

你必须写那封邮件。你必须提出问题。你不能指望通过社交来启动事业——这行不通。现在总有人对我说‘真希望我被邀请参加那个社交活动’，但关键根本不在这里。

You have to write the email. You have to ask the question and you cannot network your way into starting. That doesn't work. People right now always say to me, you know, I wish I was invited to this networking event. It's like that's not the thing.

人脉是工具，是实现目标的手段。真正决定你能否起步的因素往往出乎意料——我从自身经历中发现，对我事业和生活影响最大的人，最初我根本不认识任何能给我创业资金的人。

A network is a tool, a way of getting things done. The things that make the difference between starting and not starting is never really what you think. It's never the people that you think. When I look at my business and my life and think who are the people that have made the biggest differences? I go back, it's like I didn't know anyone that was gonna give me money to start a business.

我直接去找客户和合作伙伴，向他们解释‘我要做这件事需要启动资金’。当我需要建议和导师时，我根本不认识东伦敦的正经商人。于是我又找到客户，在提案营销方案时顺便请教几个问题——你必须抓住机会主动出击，而不是四处寻找导师。

I went to my clients, to people that I worked with and explained like, I am going to start this thing and I'm gonna need some capital to do it. When I needed advice and a mentor, I didn't know anyone who like had a business in East London, like not a legit or legal one anyway, you know, it's like, okay guys, like that's not the type of business advice I need. So again, I went to clients and at the end pitching the marketing campaign I was there, I would just ask a couple of questions. Like you gotta take your chance, shoot your shot. Don't walk around looking for a mentor.

要带着问题去交流。你必须明白，你的人脉永远会超出你的想象——工厂、供应商、银行关系、律师，这些才是你真正的资源网络。

Walk around asking questions. That's what you have to do. And you have to realize that your network will never be what you think it is. It will be the factory, the vendors, your bank relationship, your lawyer. Like that is your network.

所以充分利用现有资源。停止关注你缺少什么，聚焦你拥有的东西并以此构建人脉。但你必须开始行动——总要有个起点。

So work with whatever you've got. Stop looking at what you don't have and look at what you do have and make that the network. But you have to start. You gotta start somewhere. You know,

我一直在想：空谈太容易了。制定计划太容易了。社交应酬太容易了。但真正的分水岭是——你能展示什么实际成果？如果你没法掏出手机展示你做出来的东西，那你就什么都没做成。

I keep thinking about the fact that it is so easy to talk. It's so easy to make a plan. It's so easy to, you know, network with people. But the real differentiator is what can you show me that you've done? If somebody if you can't take out your phone and show someone a photograph of the thing that you did, you haven't done anything.

没错。你提到要提问——是否存在更有效的问题？确实存在更优质的问题。

Yes. You said ask questions. Are there questions that are better than others? There are questions that are better than others.

我还发现很多创业者会陷入对自身创意的偏执。经常有人在向我推介或寻求建议时，当我问及行业格局、竞争对手或市场状况，他们却一无所知。创业不仅要专注自己的项目，还必须痴迷于所有相关领域。

And I also think that what happens with a lot of founders is that they get obsessed with their idea. They get obsessed with their individual thing. And often I will be in a situation, somebody is pitching an idea or trying to get advice from me and I will ask about their space, the competition, their market and they don't know anything. So when you start something, it's not just about the thing that you're doing. You have to be obsessed with everything else that is adjacent.

是的。针对你所在的整个品类。痴迷于价格，痴迷于分销，痴迷于每一个细节和动态，因为这才是关键。你要将自己的产品带入那个领域。因此，这将成为你起步与目标之间的障碍。

Yes. With your entire category. Obsess the price, obsess the distribution, obsess every single part and every dynamic of that thing because that's what counts. You're bringing your thing into that space. And so that becomes the barrier between what you're starting with and where that thing is going to go.

你必须对周围发生的一切保持高度开放，因为这就是商业的真相。从第一天起，你就在战斗。开门营业，启动网站，这就像一场战斗。争夺注意力，争夺客户，你需要愿意并真正理解你正在解决的问题以及你独特的价值所在。这意味着要了解周围的一切。

You've gotta be really open to what's happening around you because that is the truth of business. You are in a fight from day one. You open your doors, you start your website, it's like it's a fight. It's a fight for attention, it's a fight for that customer and you need to be willing and have a real understanding of what problem you're solving for and what it is that you bring uniquely. And that means an understanding of everything else that is around you.

你最初是从什么开始的？首先要说的是，我一直有工作。从十二岁起，我就有工作。我送过报纸，做过保姆，在熟食店工作过，也在无数服装店打过工。好像我一直在工作，永远都在工作。

What was the first thing that you started? So the first thing to say is I always had a job. From twelve, I've had a job. I delivered the papers, I did the babysitting, it's like I worked in the deli, I worked in million different clothes shops. It's like I've been working forever and ever and ever.

所以我大学辍学后，进入了这段奇怪的工作实习年。我辗转于不同的地方，基本上是在弄清楚我不想做什么。但逐渐接近了时尚行业的本质——它是如何运作的？后来我进入了一家时装秀制作公司。

And so it's like I dropped out of college and I landed in this strange year of just work placement. So I just went from place to place to place essentially figuring out what I didn't wanna do. But getting closer to the idea of like what is the fashion business? How does it work? I landed in a fashion show production company.

听起来光鲜，实际上根本不是。你在搭建T台秀场。设计师有他们宏伟的创意构想，而你需要将其实现。秀场搭建耗时三个月，但表演只有十分钟。

Sounds glamorous, absolutely was not. You're building the catwalk shows. So you know, a designer has this like grand idea of what it is that they want to do and you have to build it. The show goes up but you spend three months planning it. The show goes up and down in ten minutes.

你看不到演出，因为你在后台。所有人都去参加派对，而你未被邀请，还得拆卸舞台、打包设备。这就是我五年的生活。但在这个过程中，我认识了所有人，理解了时尚产业的本质，明白了办秀的意义，也建立了广泛的人脉。

You don't see it because you're backstage. Everybody goes off to a party that you're not invited to and you have to de rig and pack the thing down. That was my life for five years. But in that, I met everybody. I understood what the business of fashion was, why we're putting on the shows, and I knew everybody.

于是我利用在那里积累的资源——作为懂时尚、热爱时尚的人建立的声誉，开始为时装设计师与品牌牵线搭桥。设计师们都有办秀的宏大构想，但缺乏预算，因为销售不佳。我促成设计师与品牌的合作，逐渐从零散交易中抽取佣金，最终在伦敦创立了中介机构，成为这个领域的专家。

And so I essentially took the what I had created there which was just my reputation as being someone who understood fashion and loved fashion and I started doing deals for fashion designers with brands. So everybody had this grand idea of what show they wanted to put on but no budget because they weren't really making sales. And so I would do brand partnerships between designers and brands. And I created an agency eventually after like, one deal here, one deal there, a little commission there, a little commission there. I became like the girl that did this in London.

24岁时我创立了中介公司。经营十年间，公司不断壮大——在伦敦、纽约设立办公室，曾短暂开设洛杉矶分部后又关闭。这个中介集团逐渐发展为收购版权、授权及品牌权益的机构，我们还负责电影中的产品植入。

And I started an agency when I was 24. The agency I was in for ten years, I grew it. I had an office in London, an office in New York, an office in LA, closed the office in LA, grew, grew, grew. And I essentially built this agency group that started acquiring rights, licensing rights and brand rights. We did product placement in movies.

我们安排名人参与广告活动。

We put celebrities into campaigns.

所以如果我不明白那是什么意思。

So if I don't understand what that means.

是的。那是什么意思

Yes. What what does that mean

就是你

that you

DO品牌是一家娱乐营销机构。好的。所以我们代表品牌在娱乐界的利益。比如我的客户可能是奔驰。

do brand was an entertainment marketing agency. Okay. So we represented a brand's interests in the world of entertainment. So my client could be, let's call it Mercedes Benz. Okay.

奔驰想把车放进电影里，或者想让克劳迪娅·希弗代言广告。也可能想和时装设计师合作打造华丽内饰。我就是代表品牌促成这些营销合作的女孩。

And Mercedes Benz wanna put that car into a movie Or they would like to have Claudia Schiffer in their campaign. Okay. Or they would like to do a partnership with a fashion designer and have the interiors of the car looking all gorgeous. I was the girl representing the brands making those marketing deals happen.

我想确保正在收听或观看的你，能抓住故事里埋藏的几处关键建议。你有明确愿景，知道自己想进入时尚圈，于是竭尽所能接近目标领域。

I wanna make sure that as you're listening or watching right now, you actually got a couple really key takeaways and pieces of advice that are buried in the story so far. So you have this vision. You know what you want to do. You want to be in fashion. And so you do everything you can to get yourself in as close proximity as you can to the thing that you're interested in.

所以你先做志愿者，最终得到这份糟糕的工作。虽然工作很糟，但你已经进入这个行业了。

So you're volunteering first. You ultimately end up with this crappy job. Crappy job. Crappy job. But you are in the industry.

你已经入行了。第一，即使不知道想做什么，先找份工作干着。你说整整一年都在这些岗位上全力以赴。

I'm in the mix. You're in the mix. So number one, I don't care if you don't know what you wanna do. Get a damn job. And you said for an entire year, you did everything you could in these jobs.

有些是免费劳动，但你也通过熟食店等工作赚钱。

You did for free, but you also were working and making money in Delis and everything else.

每周工作七天。白天在丁香商店打工，晚上做实习工作。

Seven days a week. I worked in the clove shop, and then I would work doing my work experience. And here's I

虽然精疲力尽，但有句话至关重要：每份讨厌的工作都帮你排除了错误选项。现在做的每件不喜欢的事，都在帮你接近真正热爱的事业。

was exhausted. But here's something you said that I wanna make sure that that as you're listening, you do not miss. Every single crappy job that you hated actually told you what you didn't want to do. So everything you're doing right now that you don't like is so important because it's getting you closer to understanding what you do like. Exactly.

这真的非常重要。而且我非常欣赏你让自己保持极度忙碌的状态。你做的糟糕工作越多，就越快能发现自己真正擅长和喜欢什么。

And that's really important. And I also love the fact that you kept yourself super busy. The more crappy jobs you have, the faster you're gonna figure out what you're actually good at and what you like.

哦，梅尔，这是个关键点，因为人们总问我：我该如何发现自己擅长什么？因为我会说，你需要做的是投身于你擅长之处。我不知道自己擅长什么？其实非常简单——如果某件事能给你能量，那就是你擅长的。

Oh, and Mel, this is a key point because people ask me all the time like, how do I figure out what I'm good at? Because I'm like, what you need to do is lean in to where you're good. I don't know what I'm good at. It's very very simple. If it gives you energy, you are good at it.

如果它会消耗你的能量，让你感到精疲力竭，那就是你不擅长的。简化这个逻辑。比如对我来说，在谈判场合，特别是合同谈判时，我简直如鱼得水。即使是棘手的谈判，我也充满激情。这就是我擅长的。

If it takes your energy away and you feel exhausted and depleted, that's what you're bad at. Make it simple. So for me, in negotiations, in like contract negotiations, I am on fire. Even the bad ones, I am on fire. That's what I'm good at.

但如果你给我一张满是数字的Excel表格，那简直是要我的命。真的，现在就杀了我吧。这就是我不擅长的。通过这种方式，你会真正开始了解自己，正是在这种自我认知中，你越来越接近自己该在的位置，发现自己的天赋所在。

You give me an Excel sheet with a bunch of numbers, it's like kill me now. Yes. Kill me now. That's what I'm not so good at. So you really start to understand and it's in that understanding of yourself that you get closer and closer to where you need to be and figuring out what you're good at.

不要试图追逐激情。不要总想着'我该做什么？我的人生目标是什么？'不，完全不是这样。

You don't try to chase a passion. You don't try to find like what am I supposed to be doing? Like, what is my purpose? No. No.

不，要投身于你

No. Lean in to what you are

擅长的事情。我是个出色的谈判专家，这就是我能达到今天成就的原因。就这么简单。我想从那个故事中提取的第二点是：在组装T台、被当作垃圾对待、无法参与有趣工作的过程中，你的人脉网络出现了。

good at. I am an excellent negotiator. And that's where I have ended up where I am today. That's it. The second thing that I wanna extract from that story is that in that job of assembling catwalks and, like, being treated like garbage and not being part of the fun stuff, your network appeared.

嗯。而且这些人脉完全不是你预期中的那些人。

Mhmm. And it wasn't who you thought it was going to be.

完全不是。

Not in the slightest.

完全不是。所以关键在于持续行动并保持忙碌，因为如果不保持忙碌，你就会陷入过度思考。这就是你起步的方式——先找一堆工作做着，自然会慢慢明白。而人脉网络会自然浮现，然后你突然意识到：等等，他们其实并没有在赚钱。

Not in the slightest. And so it's in the doing of all the stuff and keeping yourself busy because if you don't keep yourself busy, you're gonna get stuck in your head. That's how you get started. Just get a bunch of jobs and you're gonna start to figure it out. But the network appears and then all of a sudden you realize, wait a minute, like, they're not making money.

所以或许我可以引入一个小品牌合作，比如让帕克奔驰把车停在店前，他们会为此付费。我有个朋友在那边的经销商工作。所以这不是从企业品牌开始的，而是从本地关系入手，因为——

So maybe I could get like a little brand involved, like Parker Mercedes out front and they would pay to do that. And I have a buddy who works at the dealership down there. So it doesn't start with the corporate brand, it starts with the local thing because that's

这就是你的人脉网络。而且最初也不是时尚品牌。我原本想着要进军时尚行业，记得吗？但头两年我根本没有时尚客户。接的都是企业品牌，因为在制作行业工作时，我接触的不是公关、模特或设计师。

your network. And it didn't start with the fashion brands. In my head, I was like, I'm gonna work in fashion, remember? I didn't have any fashion clients for the first two years. I had a bunch of corporate brands because my contacts when you work in production, it wasn't the PRs and the models and the designers.

我的联系人都是灯光设计师、索具工和舞台搭建人员。他们会说‘我认识沃尔沃的首席营销官’，我就说‘太好了，那把她电话给我’。你得顺势而为，抓住能抓住的机会，始终盯着目标，因为路可以转弯。有选择时就能转向。

My contacts were the lighting designers and the riggers and the people that built the stage. And they're like, well, you know, I know the CMO over at, you know, Volvo. I was like, great, well give me her number then. You know, so it's like you just have to go where the energy is and you take whatever you can take and you just keep your eyes on the prize because you can pivot. When you have choices, you can pivot.

而没得选时，眼前有什么就做什么。

And when you don't have choices, you do whatever is in front of you.

艾玛，你太不可思议了。听你讲话时，我几乎忘了自己是在采访。我能听你说一整天。现在正好插播广告时间，让我们优秀的赞助商说几句。但天啊，你简直火力全开，这才刚刚开始呢。

Emma, you are just incredible. As I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm almost forgetting that I'm supposed to interview you. I could listen to you all day. This is the perfect moment to take a break. I got to give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words, but holy smokes, you're on fire and we're just getting started.

趁广告间隙，请大家想想自己爱的人。我马上要把这期节目分享给我女儿、儿子和几个朋友。这期内容简直是礼物，能改变他们的人生，点燃他们的激情。既然你还没行动，就让艾玛来点醒他们吧。

And while we take this quick break, I want you to think of someone you love. I am sending this ASAP to my daughters, to my son, to a couple of my friends. I mean, this episode is a gift. It has the power to change their life and light a fire under their ass. And, my god, since you haven't been able to do it, let Emma do it.

别走开，广告后我和艾玛·格里德等着你。欢迎回来。今天我们有幸与非凡的艾玛·格里德共度时光。没错——

Don't go anywhere because Emma Greed and I will be waiting for you after this short break. Stay with us. Welcome back. Today, you and I are getting to spend time with the extraordinary Emma Greed. Yes.

她是SKIMS和Good American的联合创始人，今天要来激发大家对生活的更大愿景。艾玛，我们直接继续吧。你现在34岁，经营着这家了不起的经纪公司，运筹帷幄、谈判交易，但前些年并不快乐，直到最近五年才真正热爱这份工作。

She is the cofounder of SKIMS and Good American, and she is here to make you aspire to a bigger vision for your life. So, Emma, let's just jump right back into it. You're now 34 years old. You've been, like, running this incredible agency, wheeling and dealing and negotiating and, like, having all this. Not having fun yet because it's only the last five years that you really love what you're doing.

然后你有了这个创意，最终和克里斯·詹娜共处一室。

And you have this idea, and you end up in a room with Kris Jenner.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后发生了什么？

And what happened?

嗯，你知道，我认为人们需要明白的关键是，我花了十年时间在品牌与时尚的交叉领域建立我的职业生涯。嗯。因此我对时尚行业的运作方式和市场空白有着深刻理解。我真正明白缺失的是什么。

Well, you know, I think the important thing for people to understand is that I had spent ten years building my career at the intersection of brands and fashion. Mhmm. And so I had a fantastic understanding of what works in fashion and where the white space was. I really understood what was missing.

什么

What do

说市场空白是什么意思？当我谈到市场空白时，指的是机会所在。市面上缺少什么？明白了。哪里存在问题需要我去解决？

mean the white space? When I talk about white space, it's where the opportunity is. What wasn't out there? Got it. Where was there a problem that I could find a solution for?

而Good American就是这个解决方案。你看，绝大多数女性都被时尚行业严重忽视。美国68%的女性穿16码以上衣服。但十年前当我去商场时，几百家店铺里可能只有两三家会提供这个尺码——那时候我刚萌生这个想法。

And Good American was a solution. It was that, you know, most women are massively underserved by the fashion industry. 68% of women in America are above a size sixteen. And yet when you go into a mall, there's maybe two or three shops out of the hundreds of stores that will actually cater to that size. Now we're going back ten years ago, right, when I first had this idea.

现在情况有所改变，很大程度上是因为Good American的影响。但当时选择极少，而且老实说那些选择都很糟糕。丑得要命。我来自东伦敦，家里都是身材丰腴的女性，她们充满自信，自我感觉良好。

So the landscape has shifted a bit largely because Good American has impacted it. But back then there were very very few options and all the options quite honestly were bad. Horrible. They were ugly. And I had come from a place, know, in East London, all my family are big curvy women and they have confidence and they feel good about themselves.

特别是黑人文化里，臀部越丰满越美。所以我们的审美观远比媒体展现的多元。于是我下定决心：过去十年我为客户创造价值，事业有成，还成功出售了第一家公司，但现在我要创立属于自己的品牌。我见证了名人代言如何加速品牌成长——无论是娜塔莉·波特曼代言迪奥，还是我为欧莱雅策划广告——我深谙其道。

And especially you know, you think about black culture, it's like the bigger the butt, the better. And so we were very much, my idea of beauty was much much broader than what was being shown in the media. And so I had this idea and I just decided I was like, I'm going to do this. I have spent the last ten years building value for all of my clients and I was very well enumerated and I had a fantastic business and I managed to sell that first business but I wanted to do something that was for myself that I owned and that I could feel very proud of and start a brand instead of helping all of these other brands. And so what happened is I had seen how celebrity endorsement can really accelerate a brand because ten years working on all of those campaigns, you know, Natalie Portman for Dior or putting people in L'Oreal commercials or whatever it was I was doing, I understood how that worked.

我明白明星效应是打开市场的钥匙。所以我想：太好了，我要创立这个品牌，填补市场空白，再结合明星效应引爆它。于是我去找了克里斯和克洛伊洽谈。

I understood that talent was a key to unlocking an audience. And so I was like, great. I'm gonna start this brand. I'm gonna fill the white space, do something that isn't out there, and I'm gonna couple it with the talent to make it explode. And so I pitched Chris and Chloe.

现在回想那像是传奇会面，但说实话当时并不觉得。那时我只确信自己手握特别的东西，并花了很长时间论证其成功逻辑。八年前Good American问世时，完全是开拓者的存在。

Now feels like a legendary meeting. At the time, honestly, it didn't feel like a legendary meeting to me. At the time, I really knew that I had something special. And I had spent a long time figuring out why this was going to be so successful. And you know, if I go back eight years now, Good American was a complete trailblazer.

当时没有同类产品。我们首日销售额破百万美元不是靠概念吸引人，而是消费者真切感受到差异。她们知道我们看见了她们的需求，感受到被关注、被倾听、被代表。

There was nothing like it. There was a reason that we did a million dollars on day one and it wasn't because people were like, oh, you know, this sounds like a good idea. It's because they could feel the difference. They understood that we saw them. They felt seen, they felt heard and they felt represented.

那是我职业生涯中一个神奇的时刻，因为那是一个我构思出来的想法。这个前所未有的创意从零开始，却引起了共鸣，它成功了。然后我意识到自己一无所知——我对经营服装公司完全不懂。

And it was a magical moment in my career because it was an idea that I'd come up with. It was an idea that didn't exist, that I'd started from scratch and it was resonating. It was working. And then I realized I know nothing. I know nothing about running an apparel company.

我所有的代理经验和在全球开设办公室的经历都毫无意义，因为我进入了服装行业，却并非业内人士。我对制衣一窍不通。表面上看似巨大成功，获得无数媒体报道和社交关注，但实际上我根本不知道如何运营这门生意。

All of my agency experience and opening offices all over the world meant nothing because I was in the garmento business and I was not a garmento. I knew nothing about making clothes. And so it was like, you know, I had this, on the outside, this huge success that was getting so much press and so much attention and growing on social and yet I had no idea how to run that business.

我想回到那次会议和那个创意。嗯。八年前你是怎么构架这个想法的？因为它绝对是开创性的。你发现了一片空白领域——不像那些总有人说'我早想过Uber'的亲戚们。

I wanna go back to this meeting and the idea. Mhmm. So the idea was to how did you frame the idea eight years ago? Because it it it was absolutely a trailblazer. So you've got this white space idea that is this is not like everybody's got that uncle who's like, I thought of Uber.

对。嗯。好吧。当然。

Right. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. Sure.

你做了吗？

Did you do it?

但不同。你为这一刻筹备了超过十年。所以你不只有想法，还对这个行业极度痴迷。你早就知道自己会做这件事。

But no. You you you had been building toward this moment Yes. For well over a decade. And so you not only had an idea, you had obsessed around the industry. You knew that you were gonna do this.

不管Kris Jenner和Chloe是否同意，因为你注定要做成这件事。

Didn't matter if Kris Jenner and Chloe or anybody said yes because you were gonna do this.

噢，我非做不可。

Oh, I was gonna do it.

当然非做不可！不过告诉我，当时你是怎么提案的？拉把椅子过来，带我们重现那场会议——想象此前十年我一直在实战演练。

Oh, hell yes, you were. And so tell me though, what was the pitch and pull up a chair and put us in the meeting in terms of how that meeting went. So you have to imagine that for the ten years previously, I had been in practice.

我曾向世界顶级CMO提案，让全球最大牌明星参与顶级广告 campaign，与最知名的巨星共事，在代理公司获奖无数。在名人时尚娱乐领域，我是开拓者——我的公司是这个领域最顶尖的代理机构。

I'd pitched the world's biggest CMOs. I'd put the biggest celebrities in the world in the biggest campaigns in the world. I had been on set with the most famous men and women on the planet and I had won awards in my agency. I was a trailblazer in that business of celebrity fashion entertainment. My agency was the best agency doing what it did.

所以在某种程度上，梅尔，当我走进那个会议时，我觉得自己手握一份礼物，准备好并愿意分享它，因为我知道这个想法如金子般珍贵。我带着这样的心态参会：嘿，我研究透彻、理解深入并实际制作出来的这条牛仔裤，将成为时尚界的下一个爆款。我的心态就是这事已成定局——十月份我就要推出这个产品。

And so in a way, Mel, when I got into that meeting, I thought I had a gift in my hand and I was ready and willing to share my gift because I knew I had an idea that was golden. And I really approached that meeting saying, hey, I have this golden brilliant thing that I have researched and I understand and I'd gone out and made, you know, I had a pair of jeans, and this is going to be the next big thing in fashion. And so my mindset was that this is done. I am launching this thing. It comes out in October.

接下来我们该何去何从？那一刻之所以特别，是因为所有人都能看清这个价值。我之所以能吸引到合适的投资人、合作伙伴和零售商，正是因为这个创意、执行过程及其背后的一切都非同寻常——我做了充分的准备。

Where do we go from here? And I think that there was something so special in that moment because everybody could see it. Everybody understood. The reason I was able to attract the right investors and the right partners and the right retailers is because the idea and the execution and what led up to it was so incredibly special. I had done my homework.

我清楚自己与他人的区别。我对定价近乎痴迷，能报出Nordstrom丹宁区每条牛仔裤的价格，了解它们的材质构成，更能说明我的牛仔裤有何不同——为什么女性穿上后会感受到独特体验，这一切都源于我的执着。

I knew the difference between me and everybody else. I had obsessed the price point. I could tell you the price of every single pair of jeans that sat on the Nordstrom Denning floor. And I could tell you what the content of those jeans were. And I could tell you how my jeans were made differently and why when a woman put them on, she felt a certain way in them because I was obsessed.

这种痴迷已超出合理范畴。因为在我心中，必须在这个属于自己的领域取得成功——当你长期作为顾问为他人做嫁衣，看着自己的创意变成别人的功劳时，像我这样自尊心强的人终会爆发。我渴望为自己欣赏却被忽视的女性群体做些实事，并为此获得认可。

Obsessed beyond anything that would be reasonable. Because in my head, I had to succeed at something that was mine because when you spend your life as a consultant, making everybody else look good and being the person behind the scenes and not taking credit for it, there's only so much of that that an ego like mine can take quite honestly. I was like, wow, look at that campaign. That's their idea again, you know, that I came up with. And so for me, I was ready to take credit and to do something that meant something to a group of women that I admired, that I felt had been overlooked.

如今收获的爱意难以言表。Good American最珍贵的不是首日百万销量或各种赞誉，而是街头女性们的反馈。我常去Nordstrom蹲点，当顾客经过时就会问：'知道Good American吗？'她们会惊呼：'天啊！我刚买了！现在来买第二第三条！'这种狂热让我意识到我们创造了非凡的事物。

And the love that I got back now, I cannot say, the best thing about Good American wasn't the million dollar first day, wasn't that you know, all the praise we got. It's the women on the streets. The women that would stop me, you know, I would go into Nordstrom and people because I used to, you know, I was like, I'm gonna work in Nordstrom, gonna just hang around until a customer comes. And I'd be like, have you seen this brand Good American? And they'd like, oh my god.

从所有反馈中我能确定，我们确实做出了非常特别的东西。

I just bought Very Good American. I'm back to buy my second pair, my third pair. You know, it was feverish. And I could tell from all the feedback that I was getting that we had done something really, really special.

知道这叫什么吗？这就是卓越。谢谢你。

You know what this is? It's excellence. Thank you.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

真为你感到骄傲。

I'm really proud of you.

谢谢，你太贴心了。那么接下来发生了什么？灾难降临了，梅尔。

Thank you. You're so lovely. So what happened next? The disaster, Mel.

你知道吗，得到梦寐以求的一切时，那种感觉永远不像你想象的那样。

You know, it never feels like you think it's going to feel to get everything you've ever wanted.

确实。简直是一场灾难。

No. It was a disaster.

这就是没人告诉你的真相。

That's what they don't tell you.

这就是没人告诉你的真相。对。当我说是场灾难时——回溯到上线那天，其实起初非常美好。我在洛杉矶丈夫的办公室里，和刚雇的两名员工围坐在会议桌前。Shopify后台显示顾客开始涌入下单，所有人都夸我：艾玛，你真是个天才。

That's what they don't tell you. Yeah. And it really, when I say it was a disaster, the first, you know, I will, if you go back to launch date, it was amazing actually because, you know, you've got your Shopify site. I was in, you know, my husband had an office in LA at that time, I was like just sitting at a conference table with the two people that I'd hired around that conference room table. And so we had the Shopify screen up and you can see like the customers are starting to come in and people are starting to purchase and everyone was like, Emma, you're a genius.

他们说今天销量肯定爆棚。那时是早上九点，我还沾沾自喜。结果十点时他们就说：某个尺码全卖完了。我安慰大家：没关系，我们会补货的。

You're gonna like have amazing sales today. This is like 09:00. And I'm like, I'm so clever. And then 10:00 rolls around and they're like, well, know, you're out of all the size whatevers, this through this. And I'm like, that's okay, you know, we'll replenish.

这时我永远难忘的梅丽莎·安德森——她至今还在我团队——突然说：你意识到我们脱离档期了吗？我当时还想：这女人在说什么

And this wonderful woman, I will never forget, she still works with me to this day, Melissa Anderson. She says, you do know that we're off calendar. And I thought, why is this woman

关于档期的问题

to be on the Well, calendar

这就是症结所在。非时尚行业的人不懂什么叫脱离档期，可我这个时尚从业者居然也不懂。早知道就不会出这些问题。我的天真在此刻暴露无遗——她解释说：今天卖完就没库存了，补货要几个月，我们既没囤面料也没备好供应商。

that's the problem now because you're not in fashion, so you wouldn't know what off calendar means. But I was in fashion, and I still didn't know what off calendar meant. And if I'd have known, I wouldn't have had the problems that I had. So my naivety kinda hit me right there because she was like, you don't have more inventory. If you sell through what is here today, it's going to take months to get back into stock, and we are not holding any fabric, and we don't have the vendors lined up.

因为我压根没想到能卖这么多。这是个全新品牌全新概念，当初连零售商听到全尺码理念都似懂非懂。总之到11点，庆功会就变成了批斗会。

Because in my head, there is no way that you would sell through that much inventory. It was a brand new brand. It was a brand new idea. You know, even retailers, when we pitched it to them, didn't fully understand the concept of carrying all of those sizes. So long story short, I remember everybody by about 11:00, they stopped celebrating me.

等到中午，他们直接说：你可能不适合当CEO。我有三十秒确实自我怀疑了，但马上稳住局面：大家都冷静。这成了客户服务的第一课——网站访客因缺货失望而归，我开始直面自己的失职。

And by twelve, it was like, maybe you're not fit to be the CEO of this company. And I thought, maybe I'm not for about thirty seconds. And I was like, everybody needs to calm down. And at that point, it was like a lesson in customer service because I had started to disappoint people because people were coming on the website and they couldn't get their size. They couldn't get what they wanted.

于是我开始打电话联系人们。那时候当然主要还是邮件往来，没有电话号码。所以我只好问：‘你的电话号码是多少？嗨，我是密歇根的莎莉。’

And so I started calling people. And at that point, of course, it's all email. There were no phone numbers. So I was like, what is your phone number? Hi, Sally from Michigan.

非常抱歉，大约十三周后我才能给您安排一条牛仔裤。我就这样不停地发邮件、打电话，正是在这个过程中，我开始真正从根本上理解我所从事的行业——因为我必须回溯根源才能向前迈进。我必须弄明白这个庞然大物究竟如何运转，因为我完全摸不着头脑。

I'm so sorry. I can get you a pair of jeans in about thirteen weeks. And I just went and I went and I went and I emailed and I phoned and I called and that's when I started to really fundamentally understand the business that I was in because I had to go backwards before I could go forwards. I had to figure out how is this juggernaut going to actually work and function because I don't understand it.

这个故事最耐人寻味的是，你会以为开业首日就售罄库存是个天大的好消息。

What's so interesting about that story is you would think that selling out of your entire inventory on day one would be a great problem.

如果能在接下来几周内补到货，那确实是好事。但现实是——要知道消费者的注意力转瞬即逝。我清楚两个关键点：第一，我的大多数客户并没有其他购买渠道，对吧？

It would be a great problem if you could get some more inventory in the next couple of weeks. But if you're out of, you know, again, attention span is very, very short. And I knew that two great things. Number one, the majority of my customers couldn't just go elsewhere. Right?

虽然存在限制，但归根结底，很多购买Good American的女性本可以选择任何品牌。想要某样东西时，她们自然会转向别处。所以我必须找到方法，围绕我们的事业建立社群，这样才能与客户保持对话。

There was a there was a limit. But at the end of the day, there were a lot of women buying Good American that could go to any brand. And if you want something, you're gonna go elsewhere. Right. And so I had to figure out a way of creating community around what we was doing so that I could be in conversation with my customer.

这简直难以置信。不过转念一想，这种经营方式是否也有些自负？抱着‘所有商品都会迅速售罄’的想法做生意，结果积压大量库存，难道不是不负责任吗？

That's pretty unbelievable. So how so because you know what? It'd also be pretty arrogant though, wouldn't it? Isn't it irresponsible to run a business thinking you're gonna sell through all that stuff that fast and then have all that inventory sitting around?

确实，我从未预料到——要知道这是高价商品，没想到会引发抢购。而且出于我的成长背景，我对资金始终抱有敬畏之心，把每一分钱都当钱看。

Well, yeah, like I never imagined. You know, it's expensive product. I didn't think people would swarm us like that. And you know, there's always a little bit of me again because of where I come from, I'm responsible. I treat money like money.

对我来说那不是纸面上的数字，而是实打实的100美元——这笔钱可不小。所以我绝不会做出不负责任的举动，让自己陷入无法脱身的困境。关键在于管理预期，以负责任的方式行事。

To me, it's not just like a number on a piece of paper. I'm like, that's a $100 right there. That's a lot of money to part with. And so in my head, I wasn't going to do something irresponsible and put myself in a situation that I couldn't claw myself out of. And for me, it was about managing expectations and doing things responsibly.

另外我非常幸运，身边围绕着真正的商业精英。虽然当时整个行业都在追捧DTC模式，一味追求增长和获客，但我坚持要打造能盈利的事业——这才是我理解的商业本质。我知道净利润意味着选择权。

And also, I was very very lucky because I had surrounded myself with real business people. And if you go back to though that kind of time, it was all about direct to consumer businesses, growth, growth, growth, doing things, just chasing a customer. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna make a profitable business because that's what I understand. I know that money on the bottom line equates to optionality.

就是说只要你在赚钱，所有想做的事都有可能实现；如果没有盈利，选择就会受限。是的，道理就这么简单。

Meaning that if you are making money, everything that you want to do is possible. And if you don't make any money, your choices are limited. Yes. End off. It's really basic math.

你必须明白这一点。因此对我来说，重要的是在一个我能掌控且感到舒适的层面上采取行动。我反复强调'我'，因为这一切都落在我肩上。这关乎责任——我对投资者的资金负有责任。

You have to know that. And so for me, it was important to do something at a level that made sense to me that I could control and that I felt comfortable with. And again, I say I, I, I because it all fell on me. Again, it's about responsibility. I took responsibility for my investors' money.

我对那些客户及其需求负有责任。从第一天起，我就极其严肃地对待这份责任。

I took responsibility for those customers and what their needs were. I took that responsibility extremely seriously from day one.

从你创立Good American的经历中，最重要的经验教训是什么？

What is kind of the biggest lesson from your experience launching Good American?

我认为最大的收获其实是认清谁在构建这类事业时真正对你有帮助。作为广告公司出身的人，我当初并不完全理解财务模型的重要性，没意识到与银行关系的关键性，也不明白所谓'保理商'（连接你和零售商的融资机构）的作用，更没料到那些零售商会...很幸运初期就向Pete Nordstrom提案并得到他的赏识，他成了我的支持者。我当时完全没意识到这种关系的价值——正是这些关系让我能以如今年销售额数亿美元的规模持续经营。

I would say that my biggest learning has actually been uncovering who is really useful to you when you're building something like that. I don't know that coming from an agency background that I had an intricate understanding of financial modeling of how pivotal a relationship with my bank was going to be, of how this thing called a factor, which is a lending facility between you and your retailer was going to be, of how those retailer relationships, you know, I was so lucky from the beginning that I had pitched to Pete Nordstrom and Pete Nordstrom got it and he was my champion. I didn't understand how valuable that was. And those relationships are what allow me to be in business in the way that I am with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of sales today. Those relationships.

关键从来不是媒体宣传，也不是名人效应。那些我曾以为重要的事物全都不是。真正重要的是所有幕后工作，是那些奠定基础的人脉关系，它们才能带你抵达应许之地。

It weren't the press, it ain't the celebrities. It's not like, it's none of that. It's none of the things that I was like, oh, this is facts, none of that. It's all of the behind the scene stuff. It's all of the foundational people and relationships that allow you to go where you need to go.

那些不起眼的东西才是根本。说实话这要追溯到你做搭建T台那份苦差事的时期——正是那些幕后工作者构成了人脉网络。我们总忙着追逐光鲜亮丽的事物，但正如你所说，看看眼前已有的资源，善用你现有的条件。

It's the unsexy stuff. It's honestly goes all the way back to you working at that crappy job building catwalks because it was all the people behind the scenes that is the network. We're all so busy chasing the shiny stuff that, to your point, you've already said it, look at what's right in front of you. Work with what you have. Work with what you have.

然后从那里出发。SKIMS是怎么创立的？其实SKIMS的情况...

And go from there. How did SKIMS come to start? Well, SKIMS was a

稍有不同，因为那是Kim的想法。她想要创立这个塑身衣品牌，而那时我已是这个家族信赖的合作伙伴。明白吗？当我如今对某事产生兴趣时，就会觉得'这简直是绝妙的主意'，你懂吧？

bit different because that was Kim's idea. Kim had the idea of starting this shapewear company and I think that I was a trusted partner of the family that by that point. Got it. And I just, again, when I get excited about something now, I'm like, this is the best idea ever. You know?

这类产品就是那种——合理得令人拍案，明显就该存在，完全符合品牌调性，市场需求迫切，能解决实际问题...对了，需要说明SKIMS是本播客的赞助商。

That's one of those products. It's just like that makes so much sense. And it is so obviously the right thing to do and so on brand and so needed and solves a problem and just, yeah, well, I I should say, Skims is a sponsor of this podcast.

是的。SKIMS。

Yes. Skims.

我只穿Skims内衣。来吧，Skims。你可没付钱让我这么做。不过，咱们聊聊你在《鲨鱼坦克》做投资人和评委的经历吧，你肯定见识过一些惊艳的路演，也见过一些糟糕的——你知道的，每个人都想抓住机会。

Only bras I wear. Go, Skims. You did not you did not pay me to do that. Well, let's talk though about your experience investing and being a judge on Shark Tank because you've got to have seen some amazing pitches and some really horrible you know, everybody wants to take their shot.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对吧？对于那些能进入会议室或偶然被引荐的人，如果他们想抓住机会做路演，你有什么建议？怎样才能既不过分强求又不失分寸，你懂我说的——

Right? What advice do you have for somebody who can get into the room or happens to be introduced to somebody and you want to take your shot and make your pitch, how do you do it without being overbearing or inappropriate or you know what

意思？没错。完全同意。我们先花点时间聊聊路演最关键的是什么。对吧？

I'm saying? Yeah. Totally. So let's just talk about this for a second in terms of what is most important for a pitch. Right?

因为这是人们最先搞错的地方。很多出色、聪明、成功的企业家都是讲故事的高手。他们不会一上来就说'嗨，我有这个东西，卖5.99美元，它能干嘛干嘛'。他们在编织一个叙事，让你在脑海中构建这个产品能解决什么问题、它是如何诞生的，他们围绕这些展开。

Because that's the first thing that people get wrong. A lot of fantastic, brilliant, successful entrepreneurs are excellent storytellers. So they're not coming into you going like, hi, I've got this thing and it's $5.99 and it does da da da da. They're telling you a story. They are weaving a narrative in your mind for what this thing does for the solution, for how it came to be, and they're going all around that.

他们带你踏上旅程，让你沉浸其中——就像童话里的金发姑娘。懂吗？你会全盘接受。这就是起点。

But they are taking you on a journey, and you're like, you're in. You're in like you're being red Goldilocks. Right? It's like, and you're eating it up. And that is the starting point.

因为要成为卓越的企业家，你必须会销售，也必须会讲故事。我觉得人们往往低估了这两点。当你能打造一个吸引客户的故事和叙事时，你就抓住他们了。这就是你的销售说辞。

Because to be an incredible entrepreneur, you've gotta be able to sell and you gotta be able to storytell. And those two things are the things that I think people don't think about enough. When you can craft a story and a narrative that is compelling to your customers, you got them. You got them hooked. That is your sales pitch.

所以要认真琢磨并反复练习。在见到Pete Nordstrom之前，我对着镜子练习Good American的路演不下50次。记住Mel，当时我对牛仔布构造一窍不通。

So really figuring that out and practicing it. I can't tell you how many times I sat down in a mirror and spoke about Good American before I met Pete Nordstrom. Like, maybe 50 times. I did that pitch over and over and over and over again. Remember Mel, I knew nothing about construction of denim.

我是个从营销转产品的菜鸟。所以我必须精心打磨，必须设身处地——虽然我不是大码女性，但要代入我的客户群体。所以首要的是打磨故事，确保你不是在硬销产品，而是在讲述引人入胜的叙事。其次要把握时机，如果在派对、社交场合或短暂行程中，那都不是好时机。

I was a marketing kid who went into product. So I had to like really finesse it and I had to again, know, I'm not a plus size woman but I had to embody my customer and embody who I was solving for. So the first thing is like get your storytelling down and make sure you're not just flogging a product, you are telling an interesting compelling narrative. And then you gotta work out your timing because if you're in a party, if you are at a social event, if you're on a quick ride, that's not the time. That's not it.

你不如说'我有件您可能感兴趣的事，不知能否占用您五分钟'。因为如果时机不对，对方根本无心接收。接下来是态度问题——你可以兴奋、热情，甚至带点傲气，对吧？

And you will be better saying, I've got something that would be really interesting to you and I wonder if you've got a good five minutes to do it. Because if you get that timing off Right. The person is not there to receive your thing. My next thing is about your attitude. You can be excited, you can be exuberant, you can actually even be a little bit arrogant, right?

只要你清楚自己的实力并且真正掌握它，那就没问题。你必须真正掌握它。当我说你必须掌握时，是指你需要了解竞争对手，明白自己面对什么，必须提前理清所有这些事，因为当机会来临时，你必须做好准备。没有练习的机会。那一刻就是你的舞台。

That that is fine so long as you know your shit and you really need to know it. You really need to know it. When I say you need to know it, you need to know your competition, you need to know what you're up against, you need to have figured all of those things out because when you have your chance, you have to be ready. There is no practice. There is no it's like that's your moment.

所以你必须提前很久就弄清楚这些事。这样才能做出真正出色且引人注目的推介。

So you gotta figure those things out way ahead of time. That's how you do a really great and really compelling pitch.

又说到卓越了。我们绕回来了。我们再次谈到卓越。而卓越是可以练习的。

Excellence again. We're back to it. We're back to it. We're back to excellence. And excellence can be practiced.

对吧？其实是你需要卓越。不，它不会自动显现

Right? Well, it's you It actually needs excellence No. Does not show

你必须尝试，必须坐在某人面前进行推介。你必须这么做。而且你必须愿意接受反馈。以前大家都对我说，艾玛，你很棒，就是语速太快了。

You gotta you gotta try and you've gotta sit in front of someone and and pitch it. You know, you've got to do that. You've and you've gotta be willing to take the feedback. You know, everyone used to say to me, Emma, you're fantastic. You just speak really fast.

我会反问，真的吗？我说话太快是什么意思？明白吗？所以我不得不学着放慢语速，但你必须愿意接受这类反馈。

And I'll be like, I do? Really? What do you mean I speak too fast? You know? And so I had to learn to slow it down a little bit, but you have to be willing to take that feedback.

那么对于想创业的人，你给他们的最佳建议是什么？

So for someone who wants to start a business, what's the best piece of advice to give them?

我认为最好的建议是——梅尔，我想在此坦诚相告——并非所有人都适合创业，对吧？你必须认真思考自己追求的目标是什么？我们身处美国。

I think my best advice is that, and this is where I wanna be really honest, Mel. Not everybody should start a business, right? And so I think that you have to really think about what you're optimizing for. What are you trying to do here? We are in America.

美国是实现成功的绝佳之地。但成功不一定非要通过创业。我们美化了创始人的概念。也许你是那种渴望稳定、需要清楚知道下个月和下下个月安排的人。那就不适合做创始人。

America is an incredible place to be successful. And that isn't always about starting a business. We've romanticized this idea of what it means to be a founder. It might be that you are the type of person that thrives on comfort and you need to know what's happening next month and the month after. That's not a founder.

那也不是企业家。你更适合为国内某家优秀企业工作。在这个国家，你完全可以拥有精彩、美好、充满抱负的企业职场生涯。所以你必须诚实地面对自己：你是什么样的人？你追求的目标是什么？你是风险规避型的人吗？

That's not an entrepreneur. And you would be better working for one of the great companies that we have in this country. You can have a fantastic, beautiful, ambitious, entrepreneurial corporate career in this country. And so you really need to be honest with yourself about who are you and what are you trying to optimize for? Do you want to be that, are you somebody that is risk adverse?