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嘿。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
我和我丈夫已经结婚二十九年了。
So my husband and I have been married for twenty nine years.
让我告诉你一件事，没人会在你坠入爱河时告诉你。
And let me tell you something that nobody tells you when you fall in love.
与伴侣保持联系，比任何人愿意承认的都要困难，尤其是当你疲惫时，当他们让你烦心时，当你经济拮据时，或者当生活将你们拆散，而你不知道如何重新找回彼此时。
Staying connected with your partner is harder than anyone wants to admit, especially when you're tired, especially when they're annoying, or when you're broke, or when life pulls you apart and you don't know how to find your way back to each other.
我说的是误解如何演变成你们之间难以弥合的距离。
I'm talking about miscommunication that turns into distance you don't know how to close.
如果你现在正处在这样的时刻——感觉你们的关系正在滑落，你努力了，但一切似乎都无效，或者一切看似不错，但总觉得哪里不对劲。
And if you're in a moment like that right now, where it feels like your relationship is slipping, you're trying, but nothing's landing, or things are good, but something's off.
我经历过，我丈夫也经历过，这就是为什么我迫不及待地想让你认识我们今天的嘉宾，特里·里尔。
I've been there, my husband's been there, and that's why I cannot wait for you to meet our guest today, Terry Real.
他是全球最受欢迎的婚姻治疗师之一。
He's one of the most sought after couples therapists in the world.
他的私人客户单次咨询费用高达7000美元。
His private clients pay $7,000 for a single session.
如果你对这个价格感到震惊，我来告诉你特里怎么说：7000美元比离婚便宜多了。
And if you're gawking at that price, I'll tell you what Terry says, dollars 7,000 is way cheaper than a divorce.
今天，你将免费获得这份直击人心、改变人生的亲密关系建议。
Today, you're getting that same in your face life changing relationship advice for free.
如果你单身、刚结束一段感情，或仍在寻找真爱，你即将从特里·雷尔那里学到的一切，将彻底解释为什么你过去的感情都失败了。
If you're single or recently broken up with somebody or you're still searching for the one, everything that you're about to learn from Terry Real is gonna explain exactly why none of your relationships in the past have worked.
他还会教你现在需要做出哪些改变，让下一段关系成为你人生中最充满爱与满足的关系。
And he's also gonna teach you what changes you need to make now so the next relationship is the most loving, fulfilling relationship of your life.
他将带我们一步步了解所有成功关系的共同习惯，并教你如何彻底改变你关系中的互动模式。
He's gonna walk you and I through the habits of all successful relationships and teach you exactly how to change the dynamic in your relationship.
所以，如果你感到停滞、疲惫、被忽视，或正在悄然失去爱意，别慌。
So if you feel stuck, exhausted, unseen, or quietly falling out of love, don't panic.
你并不孤单，这将是转折点。
You're not alone, and this will be the turning point.
与顶级婚姻治疗师的这场对话，是可能挽救你关系的真相。
This conversation with the number one couples therapist is the truth that could save your relationship.
我经常被问到的一个问题是：梅尔，当生活变得忙碌，尤其是你需要出差时，你怎么能坚持你的习惯？
One of the questions I get all the time is, Mel, how do you stick to your habits when life gets busy, especially when you're having to travel?
我知道你一直想知道我使用的简单技巧和方法。
I know you've wanted to know the simple tricks and tips that I use.
今天，我要与你分享我使用的三个简单技巧和方法。
And today, I'm sharing three of the simple tricks and tips that I use with you.
所以，请坚持听到本集的结尾，那里有一个由谢里登酒店特别赞助的环节。
So I want you to stick around to the end of this episode for a special segment brought to you by Sheridan Hotels.
嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎来到《梅尔·罗宾斯播客》。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
很高兴你在这里。
I am so glad that you're here.
能和你们在一起，共度这段时光，我感到无比荣幸。
It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you.
如果你是新听众，或者因为有人分享给你而来到这里，我想花一点时间，亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭。
If you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, I just wanted to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
我无法形容我对今天这场对话有多么兴奋。
I cannot tell you how excited I am about today's conversation.
我早就想见到我们的这位专家了。
I've been wanting to meet our expert for years.
今天，你们将有机会近距离观看一场与世界上最顶尖的婚姻治疗师之间的私人会谈。
Today, you're getting a front row seat to a private session with the man who is considered to be one of the best couples therapists in the world.
他的名字叫特里·里尔。
His name is Terry Reel.
他是四本《纽约时报》畅销书的作者，也是著名的两性关系专家。
He's the New York Times bestselling author of four books, a renowned relationship expert.
他从事婚姻咨询已经超过三十年，并创建了一套名为关系生活疗法的完整治疗体系，被全球的治疗师广泛使用。
He's been doing this couples counseling for more than thirty years, and he's created an entire therapeutic model called relational life therapy used by therapists around the globe.
与特里·瑞尔进行一次私人咨询要花费7000美元，而今天，他来到我们的波士顿演播室，只为免费向你们提供改变人生的恋爱建议。
A private session with Terry Real would cost $7,000 And today, he is here in our Boston studios for one reason, to give you his life changing relationship advice for free.
那么，不废话了，请大家热烈欢迎特里·瑞尔做客《梅尔·罗宾斯播客》。
So without further ado, please help me welcome Terry Reel to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
能来到这里真是太荣幸了。
It's a thrill to be here.
感谢你，也感谢你为这个世界所做的美好工作。
And bless you and thank you for the good work you're doing for the world.
特里，这话我也原封不动地还给你。
Teri, right back at you.
感谢你，也感谢你为这个世界所做的美好工作，以及今天在我们对话中将要帮助我们完成的宝贵贡献。
Bless you and thank you for the good work you're doing in the world and for the good work you're about to help us do in our conversation today.
接下来，我想从这里开始。
And here's where I wanna start.
如果我将你今天即将分享的四十年智慧、经验、所学和真知全部吸收，我的人生会有什么不同？
How could my life be different if I take everything that you are about to teach me today after forty years of wisdom and work and the things that you have learned and the truths that you know.
如果我真心接纳这些，并将它们应用到我的人际关系和日常生活中，我的人生会有什么不同？
How could my life be different if I take it all to heart and I apply it to relationships and to my day to day life?
我要告诉你们，无论是听众还是观众，我和每一对夫妻都说同样的话。
I'm gonna tell you and listeners, viewers, the same thing I say to every single couple.
我邀请你们踏上一条非凡的道路。
I am inviting you on a rarified path.
这条路要求苛刻、复杂精深、需要技巧，并且彻底超越了当前文化的常态。
It's demanding, it's sophisticated, it's skilled, and it leaves the norms of this culture in the dust.
听好了，我们从未像现在这样对关系抱有如此高的期待。
Listen, we've never wanted more from relationships than we do right now.
过去了。
Gone.
我们的祖父母，甚至我们的父母，只是并肩生活，付账单、养孩子，没有激情，缺乏沟通，但也没关系，稳定、足够好。
Our grandparents, even our parents, companion side by side, pay the bills, raise the kids, no passion, no communication, fine, stable, good enough.
那已经消失了。
That's gone.
我们希望手牵手走在沙滩上。
We want to walk hand in hand on the beach.
我们渴望激情，渴望在七十岁、八十岁依然拥有美好的性生活。
We want hard we want great sex in seventies and eighties.
我们希望成为终生的爱人。
We want to be lifelong lovers.
但我们却试图在一个不珍视关系的文化背景下实现这一点。
But we're trying to do that in the context of a culture that is not a relationship cherishing culture.
我们生活在一个父权制的、我会进一步说明的、个人主义的文化中，这种文化并不珍视关系。
We live in a patriarchal, and I'll go into that, individualistic culture that does not cherish relationships.
我希望基本的关系技能能在小学、初中、高中就教授。
I would like basic relationship skills taught in elementary school, junior high, high.
我们需要学会如何实现成为终生爱人的新目标。
We need to know how to pull off this new ambition of being lifelong lovers.
听着，获得你想要的爱， literally 意味着成为一位开拓者。
Listen, getting the love you want literally means being a pioneer.
如果你是异性恋男性，这意味着要走向脆弱，也就是解构男性气概本身。
If you're a hetero man, it means moving into vulnerability, which means deconstructing masculinity itself.
男性气概意味着不可战胜、无懈可击。
Masculinity means being invulnerable.
你敞开心扉。
You open your heart.
你正在重新定义什么是男人。
You are redoing what it means to be a man.
正如我们刚才所说，在这个文化中，女性为自己发声——不是尖声叫喊，而是带着爱与力量——这还是全新的课题。
As we were speaking, standing up for yourself, not with shrillness, but with love and power is brand new work for women in this culture.
作为人类，我们所有人都需要在生活中成为开拓者。
As a people, we all need in our lives to be pioneers.
在这个文化中，我们并不以关系为导向地生活。
We don't live relationally in this culture.
我们是个人主义的，也是父权制的，这意味着基本模式是支配。
We are individualistic and we are patriarchal, meaning the basic model is dominance.
我们控制。
We control.
我们需要用生物圈的现实来取代支配模式。
We need to trade the dominance model in for the reality of our biospheres.
我们是相互联系的。
We are interconnected.
我们是相互依存的。
We are interdependent.
如果我们继续坚持支配模式，我们将毁掉这个星球。
If we stay on the dominance model, we will fry this planet.
你在客厅里所做的一切，正是我们全球范围内需要做的工作，以使地球成为我们的子孙愿意生活的地方。
What you're doing in your living room is exactly the same work we need to do across this globe in order to render it a place our grandchildren will wanna live in.
这是一个伟大的抱负，但我喜欢说，我们的抱负是牛排级的，而技能却是汉堡级的。
It's a great ambition, but I like to say we have, like, filet mignon ambition and hamburger skills.
我们需要跟上自己的步伐。
We need to catch up to ourselves.
我很喜欢你提到‘技能’这个词。
I love that you said skills.
因此，我们可以培养一些技能来建立更好的关系。
So there are skills that we can build to have better relationships.
不过你确实说过这些技能是有挑战性的。
And you did though say they were demanding.
它们确实有挑战性。
They are demanding.
一个巨大的谎言是，长期关系应该是自发的。
One of the great lies is that a long term relationship is supposed to be spontaneous.
人们嘴上都说需要经营关系。
There's lip service about having to work on it.
但让我问你一个问题。
But let me ask you a question.
是的
Yeah.
你听过多少次说关系需要经营了？
How many times have you heard that relationships take work?
我一辈子都听过。
My whole life.
是的
Yeah.
有人跟你说过具体是什么吗？
Anybody ever tell you what it was?
你知道的。
You know?
其实没有。
Actually, no.
当然没有。
Of course not.
而这就是我的用武之地。
And that's where I come in.
有一种关系技术。
There is a relationship technology.
有一套更有效的方法。
There's a set of skills that work better.
例如，我们会详细讲解。
For example, I mean, we'll go over it.
但举个例子，向伴侣表达你的需求，比批评他们做错的地方更有效。
But just one example, it works better to ask your partner for what you want than to criticize them for what they're doing wrong.
在我们的文化中，人们通常通过分享自己有多痛苦、多失望，来试图获得关系中想要的东西。
Now who does listen, in our culture, the way we try and get more of what we want in our relationships is we share our feelings about how miserable we are that you just blew it.
这就是我们试图获得想要东西的方式，但这是最糟糕的行为模式。
That's how we try and get that's the worst behavioral model.
你不会像对待狗那样，只在它做错时惩罚它吧？
You don't treat a dog like how about just punishing a dog every time they get it wrong?
不。
No.
我来谈谈实现你想要的三个步骤。
I talk about three steps of getting what you want.
第一，这也是最重要的一步，敢于打破现状。
One, this is the important one, dare to rock the boat.
我们会详细讨论这一点。
We're going to talk about that.
敢于说出真相，但你必须以巧妙的方式去做。
Dare to tell the truth, but you have to do it skillfully.
第二，一旦你的伴侣愿意倾听，就帮助他们。
Two, once your partner's listening, help them out.
教他们你想要什么。
Teach them what you want.
亲爱的，我宁愿你这样去做，而不是那样，带着爱意。
I would rather you do it this way than that way, honey, honey, with love.
第三，当他们开始给你时，奖励他们。
And then three, when they start to give it to you, reward them.
不要批评他们。
Don't criticize them.
嗯，你干得马马虎虎。
Well, you did a half assed job.
嘿，你干得马马虎虎。
Hey, you did a half assed job.
这难道不好吗？
Isn't that great?
趁现在，我们顺便也让另一方参与进来。
Let's get the other cheek on board while we're at it.
这看起来太简单了。
It seems so simple.
说出真相，教你的伴侣你想要什么，当他们做到了，即使做得马马虎虎，也要奖励他们。
Tell the truth, teach your partner what you want, and reward them when they do it, even if it's a half assed job.
是的。
Yeah.
这是让他们做得更多的最佳方式。
That's the best way of getting them to do more.
批评他们做错的事情，是试图激发他们多付出的最糟糕方式。
Criticizing them for what they're doing wrong is about the worst way of trying to get them motivated to give you more.
但在我们的文化中，我们并不了解这些基本道理。
But we don't know these basics in this culture.
你知道，我当家庭治疗师已经四十年了。
You know, I'm a family therapist for forty years.
家庭治疗之父是格雷戈里·贝特森，玛格丽特·米德的丈夫。
The father of family therapy was Gregory Basin, the husband of Margaret Mead.
贝特森的全部工作，即家庭治疗的诞生，就是他所说的纠正人类的哲学错误——即我们认为自己独立于自然之外，并能控制自然。
And Basin's whole work, the birth of family therapy, is what he called correcting humankind's philosophical mistake, which is that we stand apart from nature and we can control it.
两者都是错误的。
Both wrong.
顺便说一下，关于‘让他们去’理论，控制可以是自上而下的。
And by the way, apropos of, the Let them Theory, control can be one up.
这通常更符合传统的男性模式。
That tends to be more traditionally male.
坐下，闭嘴，照我说的做。
Sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you.
控制也可以是自下而上的调节。
Control can also be up regulating from the one down.
这是依赖型行为。
That's codependent.
这是纵容。
That's enabling.
这是试图让伴侣……在父权制下，这通常更符合传统的女性角色。
That's trying getting your partner to That's traditionally more feminine under patriarchy.
关于亲密关系，我想先说一点。
Intimacy here's one of the first things I want to say.
要真正进入我们渴望的亲密关系，就意味着我们必须超越传统的性别角色。
To really move into the intimacy we want means nothing less than moving beyond traditional gender roles for all of us.
女性必须摆脱怨恨式的顺从和控制型的纵容。
Women have to move out of resentful accommodation, control enabling.
你的书讲的正是这个。
That's what your book is all about.
我这一代的早期女权主义者，从传统的女性从属角色转向了传统的男性主导角色。
And my generation's early feminists shifted from the one down traditionally feminine role to the one up traditionally masculine role.
我把这称为个人赋权。
I call that individual empowerment.
好的。
K.
我曾经很软弱。
I was weak.
现在我变强大了。
Now I'm strong.
去自个儿找乐子吧。
Go screw yourself.
是的。
Yes.
不。
No.
我曾经很软弱。
I was weak.
现在我变强大了。
Now I'm strong.
让我们一起合作。
Let's work together.
我们是一个团队。
We're a team.
我爱你。
I love you.
我把这叫做关系性赋权。
I call that relational empowerment.
而在我们的男性文化中，这还是个新鲜事。
And in our culture at men, that is new news.
治疗、十二步计划的督导、女性团体、男性团体，都是个体赋权。
And therapy, 12 step sponsors, women's groups, men's groups, all individual empowerment.
如果我是你，我不会忍受这种事。
I wouldn't put up with that if I was you.
说起来容易。
Well, that's easy to say.
那不如卷起袖子吧，你们彼此相爱，打算怎么一起让这段关系走下去？
How about roll up your sleeves, you love each other, how are you gonna make this work together?
你刚才说的很多东西我都想深入探讨一下。
So there were so many things you just said that I wanna dig into.
我喜欢这种关于关系技术和我们可以培养的技能的想法。
I love this idea of relationship technology and skills that we can build.
我也很喜欢你从一个更大的背景——也就是文化——出发的视角。
I also love that you're starting from a place of this larger container that we're all in, which is culture.
我也很欣赏你提到的传统性别角色，比如男人应该这样行事，女人应该那样行事，这些观念正导致大量的不满，是的。
I also appreciate the fact that the traditional gender roles, that a quote man is supposed to act this way, a woman's supposed to act that way, that those are leading to a lot of dissatisfaction Yes.
在关系的双方都是如此。
In relationships on both sides.
你提到的一个词我想深入探讨一下，那就是‘怨恨式的妥协’。
And there was something that you said that I wanna make sure we unpack, and that was the term resentful accommodation.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
问问这棵树上的任何一位女性。
Ask any woman on this tree.
我知道那是什么意思，但我只是觉得……
Well, I know what it means, but I but I
那在你的生活中意味着什么？
Well, what did it mean in your life?
因此，怨恨式的妥协是我能想到的最典型的例子：当我们陷入严重的财务危机时，克里斯崩溃了，
So resentful accommodation was the biggest example that I can think of is that when we were in a massive financial crisis, Chris cratered,
而且
and
他对自己信心丧失，不再相信自己，觉得自己作为丈夫、作为父亲没能尽到养家的责任，还让别人亏了钱。
his confidence in himself, his ability to believe in himself, the sense that he had failed as a husband, as a father to provide, that he had lost people money.
作为
As
他逐渐垮掉时，我却越来越怨恨，因为我觉得自己必须挺身而出，拯救这个家，做本该由他承担的事。
he was collapsing, I became more and more resentful because I felt like it was my job to then step up and save us and do what I thought should have been his job.
again，传统的性别角色认为，他应该是那个养家糊口的人。
Again, traditional gender roles that he's supposed to be the one that's the breadwinner.
我只需要赚点钱，作为我们的零花钱就行了。
I'm supposed to make some money that's our fun money.
但当这行不通时
And when that didn't work
你们俩都垮了。
You both cratered.
我们都垮了。
We both cratered.
整个婚姻都崩塌了。
The whole marriage cratered.
是的。
Yes.
所以那种怨恨，其实源于一种想法：我以为事情会是这样，我觉得你欠我一些东西。
And so it it the resentfulness is kinda comes from that thing of I thought it was gonna be this way, and I think you owe me something.
现在我很生气。
And now I'm pissed.
所以现在我要去做这件事，你知道的，去赚钱，找三份工作，做我该做的事。
So now I'm gonna go do this thing, you know, and go, like, make the money and get three jobs and do what I need to do.
现在我很生气，因为当我回家时，衣服还在那儿，所有这些事情都还在那儿。
And now I'm mad because when I come home, like, the laundry's still there, and all this stuff is still there.
当你和夫妻们坐在一起时，你听到的很多语气可能就是这样。
Like, could probably is a lot of the tone that you hear when you're sitting with couples.
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，如果我看看你的三点建议：坦诚说出你的需求，倾听并教对方你想要什么，然后奖励他们。
And the interesting thing is is that if I look at your three things, tell the truth about what you need, listen and teach somebody what you want, and then reward them.
这看起来如此简单。
And it seems so simple.
但当你陷入所有情绪的循环中，开始彼此疏远，距离产生时，我认为这就是你帮助人们所做的事情的核心。
But when you're caught in that cycle of the emotion of all of it and you start to pull away from each other and that distance comes in, I think this is the heart of what you help people do.
你知道，我不是想显得无情，但我会看着你们俩，觉得这真是个绝佳的机会。
Well, you know, I mean, I don't mean to be heartless, but I would look at the two of you and I go, what a great opportunity.
这并不意味着我不是一个富有同理心的治疗师。
Which is not I'm not an empathic therapist.
你想要同理心吗？
You want empathy?
哦，对不起。
Oh, I'm sorry.
不。
No.
看看你们两个人的成长。
Look at how you both grew.
而你们破裂了。
And you cracked.
父权制崩溃了。
Patriarchy cracked.
我必须教给人们的第一件事之一，我希望大家能认真听，就是健康的自尊，这很罕见。
One of the first things I have to teach people, and I'd love people to listen to this, is healthy self esteem, which is rare.
健康的自尊源自内心。
Healthy self esteem comes from the inside out.
你有价值。
You have worth.
你拥有尊严，因为你存在于这个星球上。
You have dignity because you're here on this planet.
你是一个人类，不比任何人更好或更差。
You're a human being, no better or worse than anybody else.
不健康的自尊来自外界。
And unhealthy self esteem comes from the outside in.
对许多男性来说，这是以表现为基础的。
And for many men, it's performance based.
我有价值，因为我能做什么。
I have worth because of what I can do.
我有价值，因为我赚了多少钱。
I have worth because of how much I earn.
对许多女性来说，这是以外界评价为基础的。
And for many women, it's other based.
我有价值，因为你觉得我有。
I have worth because you think I do.
这对你们俩来说都崩塌了。
And that cracked for both of you.
你本以为会被王子照顾，但王子殿下却酗酒成性，深陷抑郁，因为他的表现型自尊已经崩塌了。
You were going to be taken care of by Prince but Prince Charming was drinking himself down the toilet and depressed as hell because his performance based esteem had cracked.
所以你知道吗？
So you know what?
这并不意味着你有什么问题。
It doesn't mean there was something wrong with you.
这说明你们俩试图达到的标准本身有问题，而它并没有奏效。
It means there was something wrong with what you were both trying to live up to, and it didn't work.
是的。
Yeah.
问题是，好吧，到底发生了什么？
The problem is, okay, so what was going on?
这是大多数人从未理解的一件大事。
This is one of the great things nobody gets.
所有关系都是一场永无止境的和谐、不和谐与修复之舞。
All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
这正是你和克里斯正在经历的。
That's what you and Chris live through big time.
所有关系都是一场永无止境的和谐、不和谐与修复之舞。
All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
没错。
That's correct.
接下来我要猜一猜。
And here's what I'm going to guess.
因为当你现在听特里说话、在YouTube上观看这段视频时，我想对你们所有人说，无论你是单身、心碎、婚姻像室友般冷漠，还是觉察到关系中升起的怨恨，特里都在邀请我们所有人把当前的状态视为一个巨大的契机。
Because as you're listening right now to Teri, as you're watching this on YouTube, first of all, I want you wherever you are, whether you're single, whether you're heartbroken, whether you're in a marriage that feels like roommates, whether you're recognizing the resentment that is coming up in your relationship, Teri is asking us all to look at where you're at as one giant opportunity.
当你说到所有关系要么是、要么是和谐、不和谐与修复的永恒之舞时，基于我自己的经验，特里，我结婚29年了，我敢猜大多数夫妻都处在和谐与不和谐之中。
And when you say all relationships are either or are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair, I'm willing to guess based on my own experience, Terry, being married twenty nine years, that most couples are in harmony and disharmony.
和谐与不和谐，没有但也没有
Harmony and disharmony, No but no
修复，因为那是技能所在，而我们并不懂得这些。
repair because that's where the skills come in and we don't know them.
但还有两点。
But also, two things.
首先，我们的文化根本就不会承认不和谐的存在。
First of all, our culture doesn't even acknowledge the disharmony to begin with.
一段好的关系应该是完全和谐的。
A good relationship is all harmony.
你年轻时就是这么想的。
That's what you thought when you were young.
没错。
That's
对。
true.
而你曾感到深深的失望。
And you were bitterly disappointed.
是的。
Yes.
而且直接对准了他。
And aimed it right at him.
当然，他让你失望了，但你选择了他。
Well, of course, he failed you, but you picked him.
我想说，我们都娶了（或嫁了）自己未完成的心结。
I'd like to say, we all marry our unfinished business.
哇哦。
Woah.
等等。
Hold on.
我们都娶了（或嫁了）自己未完成的心结？
We all marry our unfinished business?
你说到点子上了。
You got it.
你知道吗？
You know what?
年轻的梅尔本可以找到一个会满足她所有要求的男生。
Young Mel could have had a guy that would have done everything she wanted him to do.
我敢保证，你约会过的那些男生中，没有一个会陪你度过这场危机。
I guarantee you there were guys you dated who you would not have gone through this crisis with.
他们根本没在你的视野里出现过。
They did not blip on your screen.
我把这叫做婚姻的神秘主义。
I call this the mysticism of marriage.
婚姻的神秘主义？
The mysticism of marriage?
是的。
Yes.
我们有机会治愈自己最深的伤口。
We have the opportunity to heal our deepest wounds.
不坠入爱河意味着，哦，是的，这个人会满足我所有需求。
Not Falling in love means, oh, yeah, this person's going to give it to me.
我会被治愈。
I'm going to be healed.
他们会给我一切我从未得到过的东西。
They're going give me everything I didn't get.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
一段真正的关系，据我所说，是当你意识到你的伴侣被精妙地设计成将燃烧的长矛直接刺入你的眼球，这就是危机。
A real relationship comes, I like to say, when you realize your partner is, here's my quote, exquisitely designed to stick the burning spear right into your eyeball, that's the crisis.
这并不是一段糟糕的关系。
That's not a bad relationship.
这是一段真正的关系。
That's a real relationship.
问题是，接下来怎么办？
The question is, now what?
你只是要一遍又一遍地重复老一套吗？
Are you just going to repeat the same old, same old?
那才是地狱。
That's hell.
还是你打算醒过来，做点不一样的事？
Or are you going to wake up and do something different?
如果允许的话，危机可以让你觉醒，但你必须主动去做。
The crisis can wake you up if you allow it, but you have to do it.
因此，有很多因素涉及我们为何不觉醒、如何觉醒，以及如果我们真的觉醒了，接下来该做什么？
And so there's a lot that goes into why we don't wake up, how to wake up, and if we do stay awake, what the hell do we do then?
未完成的事是什么意思？
What does unfinished business mean?
因为那是真的。
That what does because because it's true.
你所处关系中的那个人，总能以一种不可思议的方式触怒你、惹你生气、让你气得发疯。
The person that you're in a relationship with has an uncanny way to get under your skin, piss you off, frustrate the hell out of you.
你爱他们，但有时又想杀了他们。
You love them, but you wanna kill them at times.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
definitely 想要改变他们。
Definitely wanna change them.
是的。
Yeah.
但对我们来说，未完成的事到底意味着什么？
But what does unfinished business mean exactly for us?
这意味着你现在正身处那个你选中的混蛋本该永远不让你陷入的童年创伤中。
It means that you are now exactly in the childhood wound that that son of a gun that you picked was supposed to never put you in.
你已经被彻底背叛了。
You have been fundamentally betrayed.
你回来了。
You are back.
你四岁了。
You're four.
你和你那疯疯癫癫的家人在一起。
You're with your crazy family.
结果发现，你的伴侣和你父亲一样混乱。
And your partner is just as chaotic, it turns out, as your dad was.
你的伴侣和你母亲一样具有背叛性。
Your partner is just as betraying as your mom was.
无论伤口是什么，突然间它就摆在你面前，而这并不是你当初答应要面对的。
Whatever the wound is, all of a sudden it's in your face, and that's not what you signed up for.
你恨那个混蛋。
And you hate that son of a gun.
你正在和那个家伙说话。
You are talking to the guy.
我最喜欢的名言是正常的婚姻仇恨。
My favorite quote is normal marital hatred.
正常的婚姻仇恨。
Normal marital hatred.
正常的婚姻仇恨。
Normal marital hatred.
我的天。
My god.
我得告诉你，我环游世界讲了40年关于正常的婚姻仇恨，却从未有人后台来找我问：‘你这话是什么意思？’
And I gotta tell you, I've been around the world talking about normal marital hatred for 40 not once has anyone come backstage and said, what what do you mean by that?
你就是不能在旁边坐着的配偶面前说这话。
You just don't say it next to the spouse you're sitting next to.
对吧？
Right?
但我们确实说了。
But we do.
但你确实有这种感觉。
But you feel it.
我们确实有。
We do.
我内心有一部分，以前我说过我有一部分，现在这部分真的讨厌你。
There is a part of me, and I used to say a part of me, there's a part of me that hates you right now.
是的。
Yes.
好吧。
Okay.
原因如下。
Here's why.
但更重要的是，我们该如何一起摆脱这种困境。
But more important, here's what we can do to get the hell out of this thing together.
我们先别急。
Let's hold on.
所以如果我们只是把这些拿过来，我会继续在这里构建。
So if we just take these take I'm just gonna keep building here.
所以，无论你现在处于何种状态，在这段关系中，无论是你正在交往的伴侣，还是刚刚结束的关系，都为你提供了处理未了事宜的机会。
So wherever it is that you are, in that never ending dance in the relationship, that the partner that you're with, or the relationship that just ended offers you the opportunity to deal with unfinished business.
对。
Right.
而未了事宜的机会在于，你所处的每一段关系中，你童年的那些问题——
And the opportunity in the unfinished business is that in every single relationship that you're in, your childhood crap-
都会浮现出来。
Comes up.
以及他们的童年的那些问题——
And their childhood crap
也会浮现出来。
Comes comes up.
所以，当我们以成年人的眼光看待伴侣时，是否可以说，你真正看到的并不是成年版本的对方，而更应该想到：克里斯现在是我的丈夫，但他的内心其实还是那个八岁的孩子。
And so is it safe to say that when you look at the person that you're in a relationship with as an adult, that you really are looking at not the adult version, but really I should be thinking about Chris is here's the little eight year old version of Chris, and now he's my husband.
这取决于谁在场。
It depends on who's there.
作为治疗师，我最重要的问题不是压力源是什么。
As a therapist, my most critical question, is not what are the stressors.
甚至不是模式是什么。
It's not even what's the pattern.
最重要的问题是，我正在和你哪一部分对话？
The most critical question, which part of you am I speaking to?
我们现在正在交流，我的智慧成年大脑正在和你的智慧成年大脑对话。
We're talking right now, my wise adult brain is talking to your wise adult brain.
是的。
Yes.
前额叶皮层要到26岁才发育成熟。
Prefrontal cortex doesn't develop until 26 years old.
当你被创伤触发时，当克里斯背叛了你，而贝琳达也以我明确要求他绝不能做的方式背叛了我，该死的，我就会情绪崩溃。
When you get trauma triggered, when Chris betrays you and Belinda betrays me in exactly the way I hired him to never do, goddamn it, I get flooded.
我被创伤淹没。
I get trauma flooded.
然后浮现出来的，是我们所说的你内心的受伤孩童部分。
And then what comes up is what we call the wounded child part of you.
非常，你知道的，哭啊，哭啊，哭啊，愤怒啊，愤怒啊，愤怒啊。
Very, know, cry, cry, cry, rage, rage, rage.
在这非常不成熟的脑区和这个皮层下区域之间——这是你大脑的不同部分——而这个非常成熟的部分，我称之为你内心的适应型孩童部分。
Between this very immature part of the brain and this subcortical, it's a different part of your brain, and this very mature part of the brain is what I call the adaptive child part of you.
而我正是与这个部分工作。
And that's what I work with.
适应型孩童部分，就是你在那个疯狂家庭中成长时学会成为的你。
The adaptive child part of you is the you that you learned to be growing up in that crazy family.
对抗，你知道的，那种本能的生存反应。
Fight, you know, that knee jerk survival.
是的。
Yes.
对抗、逃跑或讨好，其中讨好指的是修复。
Fight, flight, or fawn, which as in don't means fix.
对抗。
Fight.
害你，害我。
Screw me, screw you.
逃跑。
Flight.
我要关闭这一切。
I'm shutting this down.
还有修复。
And fix.
天哪。
Oh my god.
天哪。
Oh my god.
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你很不安。
You're upset.
让我来说，你写的是关于从不成熟的地方出发、焦虑地过度运作的问题。
Let me it's not working on things from mature places and anxious over functioning is what you write about.
是的。
Yeah.
所以战斗、逃跑或修复是一种本能反应。
So fight, flight, or fix is a knee jerk.
这是自动的。
It's automatic.
我们以为这是成年人的行为。
We think it's an adult.
它在外界往往还能应付，但却把你的关系搞得一团糟。
It does okay out in the world often, but it makes a mess of your relationships.
所以让生活变得困难的是，你处于和谐状态，处于明智的成年人状态。
So what makes life difficult is you're in harmony, you're in a wise adult.
你陷入不和谐时，前额叶皮层就抛到脑后了。
You get into disharmony, that prefrontal cortex, out the window.
现在只剩下自动的、条件反射式的生存反应。
And now it's automatic knee jerk survival.
你会重演小时候的做法，但那些方法已经不管用了。
And you do what you did as a kid, and it doesn't work.
你越这么做，越不管用，就越沮丧，不是对自己，而是对你的伴侣。
And the more you do it, the more it doesn't work, the more frustrated you get, not with you, but with your partner.
你得深呼吸。
You have to take a breath.
深呼吸。
Take a breath.
我们现在教人们的第一个技能，是我称之为关系正念的东西。
The first skill we teach people now is what I call relational mindfulness.
当你情绪失控、被触发时，暂停一下，绕街区走一圈，做十次深呼吸。
When you're flooded, when you're triggered, take a break, walk around the block, Take 10 breaths.
因为当你从和谐状态进入不和谐状态时，你会受到伤害。
Because what happens is when you move from harmony into disharmony, you get wounded.
而我们大多数人对这种伤害的容忍度只有大约十秒钟。
And then most of us have about ten seconds worth of tolerance for that.
我们不会一直停留在那种伤口里。
We don't stay in that wound.
我们会转向自动的惯性反应，但这种反应不起作用。
And we move into our automatic habitual response and it doesn't work.
还记得我说过，你娶了一个冷漠的人，那就是疗愈吗？
Remember I said, you marry unfeeling, that's healing?
当你能从大脑那自动的皮层下部分抽离出来并清醒过来时，疗愈才会发生。
The healing comes when you can pull yourself out of that automatic subcortical part of the brain and wake up.
我称之为关系正念。
I call it relational mindfulness.
好的。
Okay.
我也称之为记住爱。
I also call it remembering love.
好的。
Okay.
他并不是敌人。
He's not the enemy.
他是我的人。
He's my guy.
我不恨他。
I don't hate him.
我爱他。
I love him.
我们正在经历困难。
We're struggling.
我们到底该怎么办？
What the hell do we do?
我不知道。
I don't know.
但让我们谈谈这个。
But let's talk about it.
当你身处其中时，就可以运用这些技巧。
When you're there, then you can use the skills.
但第一个技巧是进入你内心的那个部分。
But the first skill is getting into the part of you.
我喜欢说，其他疗法教你技巧。
I like to say other therapies teach you skills.
我所创造的，我称之为关系生活疗法，它处理的是你那些不愿使用这些技巧的部分。
What I've created, I call it relational life therapy, deals with the part of you that won't use them.
天哪。
Oh my god.
嗯，我曾经听人说过，治疗常常能帮助你真正意识到事情，并理解正在发生什么，原因之一是？
Well, I once heard somebody say that one of the reasons why oftentimes therapy can help you really be aware of things and help you understand what's happening?
但当你和治疗师、医生，甚至朋友交谈时，就像我们现在这样对话，你正在使用你的前额叶皮层。
But when you're talking to a therapist or a doctor, even a friend, you and I having a conversation right now, you are using your prefrontal cortex.
没错。
That's right.
我此刻是清醒的。
I'm present.
我现在没有压力。
I'm not stressed out right now.
我没有处于战斗或逃跑状态。
I'm not in fight or flight.
你也没惹我生气。
You're not pissing me off.
所以我现在处于大脑中明智的成年部分。
So I'm in the wise adult part of my brain.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你和我可能会聊，好吧，下次我旅行十天回家，一进屋就看到厨房岛台上放着枯萎的花，泡在脏水里。
And so you and I may talk, okay, next time I come home from traveling for ten days and I walk in the house and there are dead flowers in dirty water sitting in the middle of the island in the kitchen.
你又来了。
There you go again.
这
Which
让我崩溃。
floods me.
没错。
That's right.
我想，我之前说过多少次了？
And I think how many times did I?
难道没人知道我要回来吗？
And does nobody knows that I'm coming back?
难道没人知道我在乎吗？
Does nobody know that I care?
我直接就这样爆发了，我敢肯定如果克里斯在隔壁房间，听到这就像火山喷发一样，那就是受伤的梅尔·罗宾斯在发作。
I go right into that, which I'm sure if Chris is in the next room and he hears the volcano erupting that is the wounded Mel Robbins.
他可能会选择关闭自己。
He probably shuts down.
这根本不是受伤的梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's not the wounded Mel Robbins.
因为你不会跑到克雷斯特去说：你知道吗，我感觉受伤了，我回家发现花都死了。
Because you don't go to Crest and go, you know, I feel my feelings are hurt that I come home and those flowers are dead.
我觉得自己不被在乎。
I don't feel cared about.
不会。
No.
当我能拍张照片发一条被动攻击的短信时，我会那样做吗？
Would I do that when I can take a photo and send a passive aggressive text message?
是的。
Yeah.
特里，既然我可以把花哗啦一下倒进水槽，然后重重地把东西扔进垃圾桶，假装在发送愤怒信号，我干嘛要那样做呢？
Why would I do that, Terry, when I can dump the flowers out in the sink loudly and then throw the things in the trash as if I'm sending anger signal waves.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是我们之间旧有的相处模式。
I'm like, this was an old dynamic between us.
嗯，我和很多其他人，包括我的婚姻，也是这样。
Well, I and a lot of other people, my marriage too.
所以，拆解一下这个。
So pull apart that
当你感到受伤时，你知道，我觉得被遗弃了。
Well, when you're into hurt, you know, I feel abandoned.
我觉得不被关心。
I feel uncared about.
我们可以谈谈你的童年，但我相信这会引起共鸣。
And we could go into your childhood, but I'm sure that that has resonance.
但像我们所有人一样，你对这种无助和脆弱的容忍度只有大约两秒钟。
But like all of us, you have about two seconds worth of tolerance for that helplessness and vulnerability.
然后你就从低处跃升到高处。
And you go from the one down to the one up.
你从羞耻、无助、不被关心，转变为愤怒和愤慨。
You go from shame, helplessness, not cared about, to anger, indignation.
什么样的人会这么做？
What kind of person does that?
而这种做法的阴险之处在于，你会感觉更好。
And what's devilish about that is you feel better.
这管用。
It works.
因为我想，为什么它会管用？
Because I think why does it work?
因为夸大自我感觉很好。
Because grandiosity feels good.
羞耻感很糟糕。
Shame feels bad.
伤口的感觉很糟糕。
The wound feels bad.
这种适应方式感觉很好。
The adaptation feels good.
它有效。
It works.
我们并不是真的那么显眼。
We're not so look.
我们转向这些防御行为、自我麻痹、愤怒和出轨。
We move into these defensive moves, self medication, rage, affairs.
它们让我们的生活一团糟，但我们也没蠢到去选择那些让人感觉糟糕的事情。
They make a mess of our lives, but we're not so stupid that we move into stuff that feels bad.
它让人感觉很好。
It feels good.
夸大感让人感觉良好。
Grandiosity feels good.
这是我工作中最重要的贡献之一。
That's one of my great contributions of my work.
夸大感让人感觉良好。
Grandiosity feels good.
它只是把事情搞砸了。
It just makes a hash of things.
所以你需要深呼吸。
So you have to take a breath.
你是个斗士。
You're a fighter.
我是个斗士。
I'm a fighter.
进入斗士的状态。
Go into the fighter.
克里斯是个扫兴的人。
Chris is a shutter downer.
好吧。
Okay.
你看，就是这样。
Well, there you go.
但他直接就说别说了。
But he goes right into, don't talk.
再见。
Bye.
再会。
Goodbye.
是的。
Yeah.
你越生气，我就越封闭。
The more you rage, the more I shut down.
这会让你感到非常沮丧。
And then that makes you so frustrated.
那你就会更加愤怒，然后
Well, then you rage more and
然后他们就会更加封闭自己。
then you should And then they shut down more.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你是个解决问题型的人，也会出现同样的情况。
And then you or same thing if you're a fixer.
我现在试图解决这个问题，但你却对我更加生气了；或者我只是想解决这个问题，可你却连话都不愿意和我说了。
Now I'm trying to fix this, and now you're getting more angry at me, or now I'm just trying to solve this, and now you won't even talk to me.
所以我能理解你为什么会陷入这样的循环。
And so I can see how you get stuck in a loop with something.
每个人都来找我，陷入这样的循环。
Everybody comes to me in a loop.
越多，越多。
The more, the more.
等等。
Wait.
稍等。
Hold on.
所有来找你的人都这样，特里。
Everybody that comes to you, Terry.
都陷入循环。
Is in a loop.
这就是你小时候行为模式的适应性循环。
And it's this loop of your adaptation of what you did as a kid.
没错。
That's right.
压抑他的适应方式。
Mute his adaptation.
别让他像孩子那样。
Mute his as a kid.
没错。
That's right.
我想为你朗读一段你那本《我们》——纽约时报畅销书的内容。
I wanna read to you from your New York Times bestseller, Us.
这是第九页，章节标题是：在关系中，你展现出的是哪一个版本的自己？
This is page nine, and it's the chapter that is entitled Which Version of You Shows Up to Your Relationship?
严厉没有任何救赎的价值。
There's no redeeming value in harshness.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我才是那个严厉的人。
I'm the harsh one.
我承认这一点。
I'll own it.
我是个战士。
Have a I'm a fighter.
是的。
I yes.
让我们来看看适应性儿童中普遍存在的一种不成熟特质。
Let's take a look at just one of the immature qualities that are prevalent in our adaptive child.
对。
Yes.
苛刻。
Harshness.
我告诉我的客户，如果他们从与我的会谈中只带走这一个概念，那他们花在治疗上的钱就值了。
I tell my clients that if they walk away from their sessions with me with just this one concept, they will have spent their therapy money well.
就是这个。
Here it is.
苛刻没有任何值得肯定的价值。
There is no redeeming value whatsoever in harshness.
严厉并不能比充满爱的坚定做得更好。
Harshness does nothing that loving firmness doesn't do better.
这是一场革命。
That's revolution.
这能改变人生。
That's life changing.
顺便说一下，你对别人严厉，毫无价值。
And by the way, harshness between you being harsh to somebody, no value.
允许别人对你严厉，也毫无价值。
Allowing them to be harsh to you, no value.
再看看这个，你对自己严厉，同样毫无价值。
And watch this, you being harsh to you, no value.
我们中有多少人认为，为了鞭策自己，必须对自己严格，就像我们对待孩子时在状态好的日子那样？
How many of us think, well, I have to be firm with myself in order to whip myself and think about the way we deal with kids on a good day.
你不需要严厉，也能做到坚定。
You don't have to be harsh to be firm.
要坚定。
Be firm.
你知道，我75岁了。
You know, I'm 75.
我喜欢告诉我的客户，75岁的我与宇宙达成了协议。
I like to tell my clients, at 75, I have a deal with the universe.
如果不够友善，我就没兴趣。
If it's not kind, I'm not interested.
无论是我跟你说话，还是我听你说话，或是我跟自己说话，都一样。
And that's whether it's me talking to you or me listening to you or me talking to me.
你知道，我内心那个适应型的孩子非常苛刻。
You know, that adaptive child part of me is very harsh.
我从小在一个暴力的父亲身边长大，几十年来，我内心一直充满暴力。
I grew up with a violent father, and I was very violent between my ears for decades.
如今，那个苛刻的批评者，我知道它只是我那个年少时的斗士，曾让我活下来。
Nowadays, that harsh critic, I know it's just my little teenage fighter, kept me alive.
好吧，小十七岁的捣蛋鬼。
Okay, little 17 year old shit kicker.
别让任何人占你便宜。
Don't let nobody take advantage.
好嘞，明白啦，伙计。
Okay, got it, pal.
你可能有话要对我说，我会听，但你得说得好像你站在我这边一样。
You may have something to say to me, and I'll listen, but you got to say it like you're on my side.
好好体会一下。
Take that in.
说得好像你站在我这边，我才会听。
Say it like you're on my side, then I'll listen.
好的，特里。
All right, Teri.
我还有好多问题想深入探讨。
I have so many more questions I want to dig into.
这就是我想做的。
And here's what I want to do.
我得暂停一下，让我们给我们的优秀赞助商一个机会，向你们说几句话。
I got to pause so can we give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words with you.
我也想给你们一个机会。
And I wanna give you a chance.
特别是，我想给你们一个机会，把这场非凡的对话以及所有的工具和见解分享给你的伴侣、你爱的人，以及那些在关系中可能正经历困境的人。
In particular, I wanna give you a chance to share this extraordinary conversation and all of these tools and insights with your partner, with the people that you love, with people in your life that may be struggling in relationships.
别走开，因为稍后特里会告诉你，如果你在犹豫是否该留在这段关系中，你必须问自己一个问题。
And don't go anywhere because a little bit later, Terry is gonna share with you the one question he says that you have to ask yourself if you're wondering, should I stay in this relationship?
我该分手吗？
Should I break up?
这个人是那个对的人吗？
Is this person the one?
我该努力修复吗？
Should I work on it?
如果你不知道该留下还是离开，你一定要听这个问题，因为一旦你问自己，你就会立刻知道答案。
If you don't know if you should stay or go, you have to hear this one question because you will know the answer as soon as you ask yourself it.
好的。
Alright.
别走开。
Don't go anywhere.
短暂休息后，特里·里尔和我将回来。
Terri Real and I will be back after this short break.
继续跟我在一起。
Stay with me.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友，梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your buddy, Mel Robbins.
今天，你和我将获得真相与工具，这些可能挽救你的关系，嘉宾是全球排名第一的关系专家治疗师特里·里尔。
Today, you and I are getting the truth and the tools that could save your relationship with the world's number one relationship expert therapist, Terri Reel.
所以，特里，我想继续深入，这是我的下一个问题。
So Terri, I wanna jump back in, and here's my next question.
当你开始意识到，哦，我就是这样做的。
When you start to have this awakening that, oh, I do that.
我这么做，或者他们那么做，或者做别的事，接下来该怎么做？
I'm doing this, or they do that or do the other thing, what's the next step?
停下来休息一下。
Take a break.
停下来休息一下。
Take a break.
别做了。
Stop it.
停下来休息一下。
Take a break.
躲一下。
Duck in.
你知道，我整天跟这些硬汉打交道。
You know, I deal with all these tough ass guys.
我说的是NFL球员。
I mean, NFL players.
他们会躲进卫生间，把五岁大的儿子抱在腿上，每天跟他们聊五六次，真的是每天五六次。
They're ducking into the bathroom, putting their little five year old boys on their laps and talking to them five, six times, literally five, six times a day.
停下来休息一下。
Take a break.
关系正念，从那种反应性中抽离出来。
Relational mindfulness, come out of that reactivity.
记住这个人并不是十四英尺高、有五条手臂的怪物。
Remember the person is not fourteen feet tall with five arms.
他们是你的朋友。
They're your friend.
他们是你的爱人。
They're your lover.
他们和你一样是个傻瓜， neither better nor worse.
They're an idiot just like you are, no better or worse.
冷静点。
Calm down.
好的。
Okay.
现在回到纷争中去运用一项技巧，但在你内心平静之前别尝试。
Now go back in the fray and use a skill, but don't try it until you're centered.
第一步是让自己平静下来。
First step is getting centered.
你知道吗，你怎么提出困难的话题？
And, you know, how do you bring up difficult topics?
带着爱。
With love.
谁会这么做？
Who does that?
我当时就想，那我该怎么做到呢？
I was like, and how do I do that?
比如说，有人忽视了自己的健康，或者缺乏动力，没有为自己的抑郁寻求帮助，似乎开始孤立自己，不再见朋友了，你该怎么开口呢？
Like, let's say that that, you know, somebody's let their health go or that they're not motivated or they are not getting help for for their depression or they seem to have started isolating and they're not seeing their friends anymore.
你该怎么提起这件事？
How how do you bring that up?
这是一个困难的话题，它曾经引发过对峙或争吵，你根本不知道该怎么开口，又不会让对方觉得被攻击或关闭心门？
And it's a difficult topic, and it's something that has kind of led to standoffs or arguments, and you just don't know how to even bring it up without the other person feeling attacked or shutting down?
那你尽力而为就是了。
Well, you do your best.
你可以效仿特蕾莎修女的做法，但他们依然会觉得被攻击，因为他们处于适应型孩童状态，只要你一开口，他们就觉得被攻击。
And, you know, you could be taking a page from Mother Teresa, and they still feel attacked because they're in their adaptive child, and they feel attacked if you say goddamn anything to them.
但这不是你的责任，是他们的责任。
And that's not your responsibility, it's theirs.
但你还是要尽力而为。
But you do your best.
温柔比严厉更有效。
Tenderness works better than harshness.
亲爱的，坐下吧。
Honey, sit down.
让我握住你的手。
Let me take your hand.
这些是我注意到的事情。
These are the things I'm noticing.
我担心你。
I'm worried about you.
这些，这些，还有这些，把事实告诉他们。
This, this, and this, give them the data.
这些，这些，还有这些，是我推测的，不是你真的怎样，是我推测你最近有些抑郁。
This, this, and this, I make up, not you are, I make up, that you're depressed these days.
我认为如果你能为此做点什么，对我们大家都会更好。
And I think it would be good for all of us if you did something about it.
你看，我在九十年代写过一本关于男性抑郁的书。
Look, I wrote a book on male depression back in the nineties.
那是有史以来第一本这样的书。
It was the first book ever written.
我在美国国立卫生研究院的公共宣传活动里提到过，关于男性抑郁的问题。
And what I said in my NIH did a public service campaign about male depression.
我说，如果你想帮助抑郁的男性，就把你的关注点放在女性身上。
I said, if you want to help depressed men, aim your data at the women.
这并不是一时的事。
This is not a moment.
这是我们个人主义文化的表现。
And this is our individualistic culture.
哦，他得给医生打个电话。
Oh, he needs to call the doctor.
嗯，祝你好运吧。
Well, good luck with that.
要不我来试着给医生打个电话？
How about I'll try calling the doctor.
我让他上我的车，我们一起开车去。
I'll get him in my car and we'll drive together.
如果这招不行，那这个主意怎么样？
And if that doesn't work, how about this?
我们要去接受婚姻咨询，因为我担心你的饮酒问题、愤怒问题，或者任何让我担忧的事情。
We're going to go to a couples therapy because I'm concerned about your drinking or your anger or whatever it is I'm concerned about.
我们已经试着谈过了。
We've tried to talk about it.
但我还没找到合适的方式跟你谈这件事。
I haven't found a way to talk to you about it.
我们需要帮助。
We need help.
所以，即使你觉得这是他们的问题，也去接受婚姻咨询，把问题摆在他们面前。
So even if you think it's their problem, go to a couples therapist and put it in front of them.
嗯，当我真正倾听你的时候，没有所谓‘他们的’问题，因为每个问题都是我们的问题。
Well, as I'm really listening to you, there are no problems that are their problems because every problem is our problem.
你们的关系就是你们的生物圈。
Your relationship is your biosphere.
我们并不高于它。
We're not above it.
我们也不低于它。
We're not below it.
我们就在其中，亲爱的。
We're in it, baby.
保持这个生物圈的健康符合我们的利益。
And it's in our interest to keep that biosphere healthy.
你如何从‘我对你’转变为‘我们对抗问题’？尤其是在问题在于你喝酒、你缺乏动力、你放任自己堕落，或者至少你认为对方的问题在于此的情况下。
How do you shift from me versus you to us versus the problem, especially in situations where the problem is you're drinking or the problem is you're not motivated or the problem is you've let yourself go, or at least that's what you think you think the problem is with them.
首先，要有点谦逊。
Well, first, have some humility.
我觉得是这样的。
Here's what I think.
更准确地说，这让我感到不满。
Or even more to the point, this is what I'm not happy about.
这让我感到不舒服。
This is what's not comfortable for me.
听好了，我在工作。
Look, I'm working.
而你没有。
You're not.
我回到家。
I come home.
你却躺在沙发上喝啤酒。
You're on the couch drinking a beer.
家里乱七八糟。
The place is a mess.
比尔，我得跟你说，我不介意自己出去赚钱养家，但至少我回家的时候，你能做个好妻子吗？
I gotta tell you, Bill, I don't mind being the woman going out and being the breadwinner, but could you at least be a good wife when I get home?
我的意思是，这太糟了。
I mean, this sucks.
保持那样
Keep it That
听起来有点评判性。
sounds a little judgmental.
好吧，那就私底下说。
Well, keep it personal.
好。
K.
保持谦逊。
Keep it humble.
保持真实。
Keep it real.
这对我来说很难。
This is hard for me.
你可能对点点点不觉得不舒服，但我很不舒服。
You may not be uncomfortable with dot dot dot, but I'm uncomfortable with it.
我们住在一起。
We live together.
我们能谈谈这里需要发生什么吗？
Can we talk about what needs to happen here?
有没有一种建设性的方式去争吵？
Is there a way to fight constructively?
当然。
Sure.
你怎么做？
How do you do it?
事情是这样的。
This is what happened.
这是我告诉自己的话。
This is what I told myself.
这是我感受到的，也是我想要的。
This is how I felt, and this is what I want.
但你听好了。
But listen to this.
K。
K.
第三步，这就是我的感受。
That third step, this is what I felt.
是的。
Yeah.
我给你一个建议。
Here's a tip.
告诉我。
Tell me.
把最初涌上心头的感觉放在最后。
Take the feeling that comes to you first and put it last.
好的。
Okay.
愤怒。
Anger.
比如，如果最先浮现的是愤怒。
So like if anger is the thing that comes up for me first.
是的。
Yeah.
放在最后。
Last.
如果你一开始就关注那些宏大、强烈的情绪，就要深入探索你的脆弱。
If you lead with big, strong, check into your vulnerability.
那背后是什么？
What's underneath that?
就停在这里吧。
Leave it with that.
我回家看到枯萎的花，你这个混蛋。
I come home to dead flowers, you son of a bitch.
什么样的人？
Kind of person?
不。
No.
我回家看到枯萎的花。
I come home to dead flowers.
我觉得没人关心我。
I don't feel cared about.
有点孤单。
It's kind of lonely.
我感到孤单。
I felt lonely.
我感到无能为力。
I felt helpless.
我感到不被关心。
I felt uncared about.
我最后才感到生气，而不是一开始。
And I felt angry last, not first.
相反，如果你是那种依赖型的人
And conversely, if you're, like, codependent
你怎么知道自己是不是依赖型的？
And how do you know if you're codependent?
因为我觉得这个词经常被提到，但我其实并不确定自己真的理解它。
Because I think that that's one of those words that I feel like it's out there, and I don't I don't even know that I really understand.
好吧，你称之为
Well, call it you call
过度功能化。
it overfunctioning.
过度功能化？
Overfunctioning?
是的。
Yeah.
焦虑的人就是那个去解决问题的人。
It's just that anxious is the fixer.
焦虑。
Anxious.
所以，依赖型人格意味着只有当周围所有人都好时，你才会感觉 okay？
So so codependent means that you only feel okay when everybody around you is okay?
没错。
That's right.
哦。
Oh.
而且你害怕打破平衡。
And you're afraid to rock the boat.
哦。
Oh.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是它的意思。
That's what that means.
好的。
Okay.
所以，你看，你的关系就是你的生物圈。
And so, look, your relationship is your biosphere.
如果你像你和我这样的好胜者，贝琳达，你的生物圈需要你从高高在上的姿态上下来。
If you're a one up fighter like you and me, Belinda, your biosphere needs you to come down off your high horse.
我的感情受到了伤害。
My feelings were hurt.
哦，你的生态系统对这个很满意。
Oh, your biosphere is happy with that.
如果你是个一味退让的修复者，别总说‘爸爸错了’。
If you're a one down fixer, don't say daddy off.
你倾向于轻易站出来，找到自己的立场。
Your bias for an easy to stand up and find some spine.
你该怎么做呢？
How do you do that?
我的意思是，给那些听后觉得‘这说的就是我’的人什么建议？
Like, what what is your advice to the person that's listening that goes, well, that is me.
我必须确保每个人都过得好。
I need to make sure that everybody's okay.
我总是如履薄冰。
I'm always walking on eggshells.
别人都排在第一位。
Everybody else comes first.
但随后，我当然会感到精疲力尽和怨恨，因为没人照顾我。
But then, of course, I'm exhausted and resentful because nobody's taking care of me.
我该怎么站起来呢？
How do I stand up?
我该如何开始改变那个适应性地去修复一切的内在小孩？
How do I start to change that adaptive fixing little kid in me?
是的。
Yeah.
那就去面对那个孩子吧，因为你小时候学会四处奔波、解决所有问题。
Well, turn to that kid because you learned to run around and fix everything as a little girl or little boy.
如果你在成长的家庭里没有那样做，会发生什么？
What would have happened if you hadn't done that in that family you grew up with?
很可能一切都会崩塌。
Odds are all hell would have broken.
我们总是尊重那个适应性孩子的智慧。
We always respect the intelligence of the adaptive child.
你做了你必须做的事。
You did what you had to do.
你做得很好。
Good for you.
是时候退休了。
It's time to retire.
你不再是那个小女孩了。
You're not that little girl.
克里斯不是你成长的那个家庭。
Chris is not the family you grew up with.
你可以让我给你讲个故事吗？
You can do some can I tell you a story?
是的，请讲。
Yeah, please.
这是我的经典适应型孩子故事。
This is my classic adaptive child story.
这是一个真实的故事。
It's absolutely true story.
好的。
Okay.
有一对夫妻来找我时，已经濒临离婚。
Couple comes to me on the brink of divorce.
他是个骗子，什么事都撒谎。
He's a liar, lies about everything.
她对他说，如果你问他穿的是什么颜色的鞋子，他会说他穿的是运动鞋。
She says to him, if you ask him what color shoes he has on, Hawaiian say he has sneakers.
我的意思是，他甚至会对治疗师撒谎。比如我走进办公室，说：嗨，比尔。
I mean, he'll lie to and therapist will is it kind of I walk in the office and I go, hi, Bill.
天空是蓝色的。
The sky's blue.
他却说：不，它才不是蓝色的。
He goes, well, it's not gonna tell me it's blue.
他就是不告诉我。
Won't give it to me.
所以我立刻明白了他是什么情况，那个适应型的孩子。
So I get right away what his deal is, the adaptive child.
他是个入侵者。
He's an invader.
没人能靠近他。
Nobody's gonna get him.
好吧。
All right.
然后我想，好吧，这个被收养的孩子正在适应另一个人，那个在跷跷板另一端的人。
Then I think, okay, the adopted child is adapting to someone, to someone on the other end of that seesaw.
于是我问他：‘你成长过程中，谁试图控制你？’
So I go, who tried to control you growing up?
他父亲。
His father.
真实故事。
True story.
一个军人，他有多难过，他是怎么吃饭的，还有他的朋友。
Military man, how he's sad, how he ate, his friend.
你对那个控制欲强的父亲做了什么？
What did you do with his controlling father?
他看着我，笑了。
He looks at me and he smiles.
那就是抵抗。
That's resistance.
这就是原因。
That's why.
他说：我撒谎了。
He says, I lied.
爸爸说：别和亨利玩。
Dad said, don't play with Henry.
我和亨利玩过。
I played with Henry.
我告诉他我跟约翰玩了。
I told him I played with John.
聪明的孩子。
Smart boy.
干得好。
Good for you.
永远尊重你小时候学到的策略，但要让它们退役。
Always respect the strategy that you learned as a kid, but retire them.
你坐在后排。
You're in the backseat.
今天有一位明智的成年人在场。
Wise adult is here today.
我比你更能处理好这件事。
I can take care of this better than you can.
真的，当贝琳达和我吵架时，说实话，她冲我发火，因为这就是我们的相处方式。
Literally, when Belinda and I are having a fight, honest to God, and she's coming at me with anger, because that's what we do.
也可能是我。
It could be me.
我有个小特里。
I have little Terry.
我曾经和一个八岁的孩子一起工作过。
I've worked with an eight year old.
我把他挡在我身后。
I put him behind me.
在她的愤怒和你之间，小特里，站着我，我这个成年大人的身体。
Between her anger and you, little Terri, is me, my big adult body.
我们有个约定。
We have a deal.
你在后面是安全的。
You're protected back there.
她的愤怒到我为止。
Her rage stops with me.
不会伤到你。
Doesn't hit you.
这是你的那部分约定。
Here's your part of the deal.
我来处理我妻子，不是你。
I deal with my wife, not you.
你会把它搞砸的。
You'll make a mess of it.
所以，好吧。
So, okay.
这就是我的骗子。
So here's my liar.
顺便说一句，聪明的孩子，你已经不是五岁了，你妻子也不是你爸爸。
Smart boy, by the way, you're not five anymore, and your wife isn't your dad.
再见。
See you.
真实故事。
True story.
两周后，他们手牵手回来了，已经痊愈了。
Two weeks later, they come back, hand in hand were cured.
他们确实痊愈了，梅尔。
And they were, Mel.
我说，好吧，这有个故事。
I said, okay, there's a story.
你知道吗？
You know?
告诉我。
Tell me.
周末的时候，她让他去杂货店买12样东西。
Over the weekend, she sends him to the grocery store to get 12 things.
一如既往，他只买回来了11样东西。
True to form, he comes back with 11.
她问：‘黑麦面包呢？’
She says, where's the pumpernickel?
他打算撒谎。
And he's going to lie.
当然，他会撒谎。
Of course, he's going to lie.
他不想被父亲责骂。
He doesn't want to get chewed out by his father.
他说：‘我全身的每一块肌肉、每一根神经都在尖叫着说黑麦面包卖完了——但这并不是真的。',
And he said, every muscle and nerve in my body was screaming to say they were out of the pumpernickel, which was not true.
那一刻，我深吸了一口气。
This moment, I took a breath.
我想到了你，特里。
I thought of you, Terry.
我当时在借给他我的前额皮质。
I was lending him my prefrontal cortex.
我们可以为彼此做到这一点。
We can do that for each other.
我想到了你。
I thought of you.
我看着我妻子的眼睛，说：我忘了该死的黑麦面包。
I looked my wife in the eye and I said, I forgot the goddamn pumpernickel.
这真的没错，梅尔。
It's absolutely true, Mel.
她突然哭了起来。
She burst into tears.
她说：我等这一刻已经等了二十五年。
And she said, I've been waiting for this moment for twenty five years.
这才是康复。
That's recovery.
从适应性孩童状态中走出来，回到前额叶皮层，说出真相，运用一种技能。
Come out of that adaptive child into the prefrontal cortex, tell the truth, use a skill.
哇。
Wow.
我明白这和你一开始说的有关，当你爱上一个人时，你会以为对方能帮你摆脱那些让你困住的行为——比如愤怒、封闭、撒谎，或者小心翼翼地走路。
I can see how this relates to that something you said in the very beginning where when you fall in love with somebody, you think you're going to be rescued from the behavior in yourself that you feel stuck with, the rage or the, you know, shutting down or the lying or the, you know, walking on eggshells.
是的。
Yeah.
你学会的任何行为都是
Whatever you learned to do is a
你学会的任何行为
Whatever you learned to do
都是你小时候需要去做的。
is a Whatever you needed to do as a kid.
对。
Yep.
所以我能明白，在新关系的绝对幸福中，你不断坠入爱河，以为这种状态会永远持续；而事实上，随之而来的是一个机会——去努力成为明智的成年人，而不是让适应型孩童和所有在情绪泛滥时出现的默认行为主导你。当你真正去思考对方时，你会发现，是他们的适应型孩童和你的适应型孩童在房间里相遇，而你们都被情绪淹没。
And so I can see how in the absolute bliss of a new relationship, and you're just falling, falling, falling, you believe that it's always gonna be like this, and sure enough, what comes up is the opportunity to do the work to become the wise adult and not have the adaptive child and all of the default behaviors that happen when you get flooded emotionally or when you And get when you really think about the person as it's their adaptive child in the room with your adaptive child when you guys are emotionally flooded.
你明白了。
You got it.
无论是什么事情——无论是忘了买黑麦面包，还是蹑手蹑脚走路、暴怒、发泄、非要争对错，或者其他任何行为——每一件小事，无论是被亚马逊包裹触发、被黑麦面包触发、被对方饮酒触发，还是被任何其他事情触发，都是一样的。
And any single thing, whether it's I forgot the pumpernickel bread or it's the tiptoe walking or the raging or the venting or the being right or whatever, like every single one of those things, whether it's triggered by Amazon boxes or it's triggered by pumpernickel or it's triggered by their drinking or it's triggered by absolutely anything.
任何事。
Anything.
都是同样的循环。
It's the same cycle.
都是同样的伤口。
It's the same wound.
都是同样的情绪，而你会永远被困在那里。
It's the same emotions, and you're gonna be trapped there forever.
而你的工作正是在这里展现了它的智慧。
And here's where your work is genius.
当我们回到旧伤口时，我们会加倍努力，试图让那个人给予我们本该给予我们的东西。
What we do when we're back in the old wound is we redouble our efforts to get that son of a gun to give us what they were supposed to give us.
这就是我们当初嫁给他们的原因。
That's why we married them.
当他们没有给予我们时，我们会基于这种适应机制做出反应。
Or we react out of that adaptation when they don't give it to us.
我们争吵、逃避，或者做任何我们平时会做的事。
We fight, we fly, we do whatever we do.
是的。
Yeah.
这里有个新消息。
Here's the new news.
深呼吸。
Take a breath.
他们不会给你这些东西的。
They ain't gonna give it to you.
看好了。
Watch this.
如果你自己给自己呢？
How about if you give it to you?
你小时候被遗弃了。
You were abandoned as a kid.
你回到家，看到枯萎的花，遗弃感就涌上来了。
You come home, dead flowers, abandonment comes up.
不是五十岁或四岁的梅。
Not 50 year old or four year old Mel.
你转向了那个四岁的小女孩。
You turn to that four year old girl.
克里斯现在可能正在抛弃你，但我不会。
Chris may be abandoning you right now, but I'm not.
我在这里。
I'm here.
我懂你，孩子。
I got you, kid.
我喜欢说，成熟意味着我们去面对内在的孩子，而不是把他们推给伴侣去处理。
I like to say maturity comes when we deal with our inner children and don't force them off when our partners to deal with.
哦，我喜欢这个说法。
Oh, I love that.
成熟意味着我们去面对那个内在的孩子，那个适应性的自我，它不得不做各种事情——无论是愤怒、正义感、封闭自己，还是其他任何表现，当我们去面对那个人时，才是真正的成熟。
Maturity comes when we deal with that inner child, that adaptive self that needed to do whatever it does, whether the anger, whether it's the righteousness, whether it's the shutting down, whether it's whatever it is, when we deal with that person.
我爱你，孩子。
Love you, kid.
当一个内在小孩意味着你正在
When an inner child which means you're
是的。
Yeah.
所以谈谈情绪泛滥和情绪过度承担吧。
So talk about emotional flooding and emotional overfunctioning.
那和适应性孩子是一回事吗？
What is that the same thing as the adaptive child?
嗯，是的。
Well, yeah.
首先，你会被情绪淹没。
First, you get flooded.
那就是受伤的孩子。
That's the wounded child.
好的。
K.
然后你通过转向你的适应性孩子来摆脱这种情绪淹没。
And then you get yourself out of that flooding by moving into your adaptive child.
明白了。
Gotcha.
所以，我们就当这是事实吧。
So you so, like, let's just take it as facts.
当你走进去的时候
Well, you walk in
是的。
Yes.
花都死了。
And the flowers are dead.
是的。
Yes.
有一小块没被照料好的地方，那就是被触发的部分。
There's a little mell that was not taken care of, and that's what gets triggered.
对。
Yeah.
你并不是那个以适度方式感到失望的成年人。
And you're not your adult self feeling let down in a moderate way.
你是那个从未学会如何被妥善对待的四岁或五岁小女孩。
You're that four or five year old little girl who has never dealt with the way she should have been.
而且你被情绪淹没，但你不喜欢这种无助的感觉。
And it's you're flooded, but you don't like that feeling of helpless.
所以你从无助转向攻击，从下位变成上位。
So you move from helplessness to attack, from one down to one up.
这些是我们所有人暴力行为的根源。
These are the roots of violence for all of us.
是的。
Yeah.
而上位的感觉更好。
And the one up feels better.
它让你摆脱了无助感，但却把你的婚姻搞砸了。
It gets you out of that helplessness, but it makes a mess of your marriage.
所以你必须设法从上位的状态中冷静下来。
So you have to think your way down from the one up.
重要的是，你只是情绪上被淹没了。
Well, that you're just emotionally flooded is important.
意识到你现在处于反应、反应、反应的状态，这就是为什么需要深呼吸
Recognizing that you're now in react, react, react mode, which is why taking that breath
并且
and
有意识地把自己拉回明智的成年人状态。
consciously pulling yourself back into the wise adult.
是的。
Yes.
这可能意味着，你有没有绕着街区走二十分钟？
Which may mean, did you take a twenty minute walk around the block?
你和伴侣之间有个约定。
You have a contract with your partner.
嘿，我情绪过载了。
Hey, I'm flooded.
二十分钟后见。
See you in twenty minutes.
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