别再浪费精力：如何应对那些不愿改变的人，以及你该怎么做

因为我们知道改变自己有多难，但我们就觉得别人能

Because we know how hard it is for us to change, but we just assume other people can

一下子就做到。

do it like that.

完全同意。

Totally.

我们，而且如果他们没做到，就觉得他们是混蛋。

We And that if they don't do it like that, they're a jerk.

我们希望别人对自己的错误和学习过程宽容，却要求别人对自己负责。

We want grace for our own mistakes and learning curve, and we want accountability for everyone else's.

天哪。

My god.

我太有同感了，我也有这个问题。

It's so I'm so guilty of that.

好。

Okay.

我要把这个视觉资料收起来了。

I'm gonna put this visual away.

太酷了。

Super cool.

谢谢你带来这个。

Thank you for bringing that.

当然。

Absolutely.

那么，当你明明知道该做什么，却还是不去做的时候，你犯的最大错误是什么？

So what is the biggest mistake that you make when you know what you should be doing, but

你仍然不去做。

you're still not doing it?

我们忘了，你无法从你还在为之辩护的错误中吸取教训。

That we forget that you can't learn from a mistake you're still defending.

哦，等等。

Oh, wait.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

就是我们常常陷入想要证明自己的状态，而不是努力提升自己。

That we get in a space of trying to prove ourselves rather than trying to improve ourselves.

等等。

Hold on.

你听到了吗？

Did you hear that?

她说我们常常陷入想要证明自己而不是提升自己的状态。

She said we get into a space where we try to prove ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

对。

Right.

天哪。

Oh, my gosh.

我就是这样。

I do that.

我能想到无数个例子，当时我特别防备。

I can think of a million examples where I got very defensive.

我也是。

Me too.

总是想证明这事太难了，或者为什么我今晚做不到，或者我也是。

Proving why this is too hard or why I couldn't follow through tonight or why Me too.

我们陷入了证明自己的状态，而不是努力提升自己。

We get into a space of proving ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

而且

And

顺便说一句，梅尔，我们想证明的对象有时是别人，有时也是我们自己。

by the way, Mel, the people we're trying to prove ourselves to are sometimes other people and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves.

就是为什么我没做对？

It's why didn't I get that right?

为什么我不知道该怎么做？

Why didn't I know how to do that?

为什么我在这件事上这么差劲？

Why am I so bad at this?

为什么我不能像某某人那样擅长这个？

Why can't I be as good as so and so at it?

为什么我的生活不像别人的那样？

Why isn't my life like other persons?

怎么

How

才能摆脱这种困境？

do you get out of that trap?

我喜欢说的一句话是，当我说我研究好人的心理时，其实有点开玩笑，因为我的工作重点是帮助人们放下做个好人的执念，不管这对他们来说意味着什么。

One thing I like to say is that when I say I study the psychology of good people, it's a little bit of, gotcha because my work focuses on helping people let go of being good people, whatever that means to them.

去健身房、对邻居友善，不管是什么，你需要放下这些，才能成为更好的人。

Going to the gym, being nice to neighbors, whatever it is, that you need to let go of it in order to become better people.

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

因为我们不是应该做好人吗？

Because aren't we supposed to be good people?

当然，我们是。

Of course, we are.

问题在于，一旦我们认定自己是个好人，我们就会努力去证明这一点，而不是努力去变得更好。

And the problem is as soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it instead of trying to improve towards it.

而且这个游戏永远不会结束。

And this game never ends.

生活一天天继续，不断给我们带来新的挑战和意外。

Life goes on day after day throwing new challenges, new curveballs at us.

即使你觉得今天做得很好，今天你成功了。

Even if you thought you did it today, you crushed it today.

明天又是新的一天。

Tomorrow's a new day.

所以，要进入一种状态，意识到这对我们自己和他人来说都是一个持续的过程，我们不是在试图证明自己已经搞明白了。

And so getting in a space where we realize this is an ongoing process for ourself and for other people, we're not trying to prove we've already figured it out.

我们是在持续改进的过程中。

We're trying to improve on an ongoing basis.

我们不是要把自己看作好人，尤其是那些带点道德色彩的事情。

We're not trying to see ourself as good people, especially things that are kind of got some moral charge to it.

比如，你对孩子好吗？

Like, are you nice to your children?

你是个好父母吗？

Are you a good parent?

这些事情都带有很强的道德色彩，我们觉得我们应该天生就知道怎么做，你也应该天生就知道。

Like, those things have a lot of moral charge to them, and we feel like we should just know how to do it, and you should just know how to do it.

这还不够。

That's not good enough.

这些都是技能，而技能需要练习和改进。

These are skills, and skills require practice and improvement.

所以关于做好人的事情，我们往往把它看作是一种你应该持有的信念。

So good people things, we tend to view as, like, it's a belief you should have.

这是你应该有的价值观。

It's a value you should have.

你怎么可能不知道怎么做？

How can you not know how to do that?

你为什么老是打断我？

Why do you keep interrupting me?

如果你在乎，就不会打断我。

If you cared, you wouldn't interrupt me.

这就像是你应该知道怎么做的事。

That's like a you should just know how to do it.

证明给我看。

Prove it to me.

而不是说你正在努力改进，把它当作一项技能来练习。

As opposed to you're trying to get better at it, and it's a skill that you're working on.

嗯，我确实能看到我是怎么拿这个来压别人的。

Well, I can see certainly how I hold this over other people's heads.

对。

Yeah.

如果你没做到我希望你做的事，你就不是个好人。

That if you're not doing the things that I wish you would do, you're not a good person.

但如果我先拿自己开刀，因为接下来我们还要谈别人，我想，好吧。

But if I turn it on myself first, because we're gonna get to other people, and I think, okay.

我邀请你在听的时候，真的想一想，你曾经用什么样的标准来评判自己，觉得自己如果今天把每封邮件都处理完了，就是个好人？

And I invite you as you're listening to really think about what have you held over your own head in judgment where you believe that if you got to every email today, you're a good person?

如果衣服洗完了，你就是个好人。

If your laundry is done, you're a good person.

如果房子打扫干净了，你就是个好人。

If your house is clean, you're a good person.

如果你既能上班，又能去学校做志愿者，还能照顾父母，你就是个好人。

If you can both be at work and volunteer at the school and take care of your parents, you're a good person.

而你在说，即使努力按照自己设定的标准去“做个好人”，也会让自己痛苦不堪，你希望我们转变心态，变成：不不不。

And you're saying that even trying to quote, be a good person by some standard you've set is a recipe for feeling miserable about yourself, and you want us to switch our mindset to, No, no, no.

我一直在进步。

I'm improving all the time.

我一直在学习。

I'm learning all the time.

我一直在尽力而为。

I'm doing the best I can all the time.

这就是那种转变吗？

Is that kinda more of the switch?

正是如此。

That's exactly it.

所以我区分的是“好人”和“差不多好的人”。

So the distinction I make is between being a good person and a goodish person.

好的。

Okay.

做个好人让人欣喜若狂。

Being a good person is ecstatic.

你要么是好人，要么不是。

You either are or you're not.

哦。

Oh.

而“差不多好”的人，是那种总在努力变得更好的人。

A goodish person is someone who's always trying to get better.

所以，“好人”是在努力证明自己是个好人。

So good person is trying to prove they're a good person.

而“差不多好”的人是在不断努力提升自己。

Goodish person is constantly trying to improve.

讽刺的是，虽然“差不多好”听起来好像没那么好。

And so the irony of it is even though goodish sounds like, okay.

嗯，你不如“好”那么好。

Well, you're not as good as good.

但“差不多好”其实比“好”更好，因为你一直在变得更好。

Good ish is actually better than good because you're constantly getting better.

而且你给自己留了余地，允许自己偶尔搞砸。

And you're giving space for the days where you blow it.

然后你为这件事负责。

And you take ownership for it.

好。

K.

所以，给自己留余地是有区别的。

So there's a difference between giving space.

比如说，我说了某句话伤害了别人。

Like, let's say I say something that hurts someone.

比如我用了某个词，没意识到它有冒犯性的含义或历史背景，然后被人指出来了。

Let's say I use a term that I don't realize has some offensive meaning or history to it, and I get called out on it.

对。

Yep.

这里的重点不是让自己逃脱责任。

The idea here is not to let myself off the hook.

嗯，你知道，他们太敏感了。

Well, you know, they're too sensitive.

对。

Yeah.

我还行吧。

I'm good ish.

你知道，他们有点太敏感了。

You know, they were a little too sensitive.

对不起，你知道，你反应这么大。

I'm sorry, you know, you were so offended.

我的意思是，我要说，好吧。

The idea is for me to say, okay.

有些事我之前不知道。

There's something I didn't know.

我要承认，我确实造成了伤害，虽然不是故意的。

I'm gonna own that I did some harm there that I didn't intend to.

对。

Yeah.

并不是说我这个人不好。

It's not that I'm a bad person.

而是我之前不知道，现在我要去学习，承担起这个责任，下次做得更好。

It's that I didn't know, and now I'm going to learn, take ownership for that, and do better the next time.

所以承担责任这部分真的很重要。

So the ownership piece is really important.

我是一个还算不错的人，一直在努力变得更好，在这个过程中，我要提升自己，而不只是证明自己。

It's that I'm a good ish person who keeps trying to get better, and in doing that, I'm going to improve myself, not just prove myself.

这个框架真的很有帮助，因为它让我，可能也让正在听的你，看到你对自己有多苛刻。

This is such a helpful framework because it really reveals to me anyway and probably to you as you're listening right now how hard you are in yourself.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

你对自己要求的标准有多高，简直不可能达到。

And what impossible standards you hold yourself to.

对。

Right.

Chugh博士，我希望您能直接对那位听到“不断进步”就感到疲惫的人说几句，因为您说的其实有细微差别。

And I would love to have you, doctor Chugh, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving because there's a nuance to what you're saying.

您并不是说必须不断逼迫自己、不断进步、不断去健身房、不断努力做得更好、不断拼命，因为自己做得还不够。

You're not saying you gotta be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough.

对。

Right.

这是一种不同的心态。

It's a different mindset.

是的。

Yeah.

我希望您能把这个放到具体情境中，因为我敢打赌，现在正在收听、抽出时间陪我们的那位听众，可能已经精疲力尽了。

And I'd love to have you put that in context because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted.

完全同意。

Totally.

他们非常努力。

They're trying very hard.

一天结束时，他们觉得自己做得还不够。

They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough.

当你像我一样开始意识到这一点时，哇。

And as you're starting to have this realization like I am that, wow.

我大概是全世界对自己最苛刻的人。

I'm, like, probably the hardest person in the world on myself.

对。

Right.

因为我想做个好人。

Because I'm trying to be a good person.

对。

Right.

但我把这件事定义得根本无法达到。

But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我每天结束的时候，至少会有十件事让我觉得自己是个坏人，因为我没做到。

So I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day that make me feel like a bad person because I didn't get to them.

对。

Right.

那你希望我们怎么真正理解，从证明自己是好人，到最终把自己逼到绝境，这到底意味着什么？

So how do you want us to really think about what that means going from proving that you're good Right.

然后最后把自己彻底否定掉。

And then annihilating yourself at the end of it.

我不好。

I'm bad.

我没做到这个。

I didn't do this.

没错。

Exactly.

而相比之下，你的心态转变就是不断努力去

Versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to

提升自己。

improve.

对。

Exactly.

对。

Exactly.

嗯，我觉得你刚才说得太到位了。

Well, I think you just nailed it in what you said.

所以，让人疲惫的是——我们现在都因为很多原因感到疲惫——但特别让人疲惫的是那种失败感。

So what's exhausting, and we're all so exhausted for a lot of reasons right now, but what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure.

这会导致心理学家所说的“习得性无助”。

It leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness.

如果你一直努力、努力、再努力，却感觉不到任何进展，最终你会觉得自己无能为力，然后放弃。

If you keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, don't feel like you get anywhere, eventually, you just learn that you're helpless, and you give up.

我们在这里讨论的，确实需要一点努力，但没那么累。

What we're talking about here is, yes, something that takes a little bit of effort, but it's less exhausting.

因为归根结底，你评估的是自己有没有成长，而不是有没有成功。

Because what you're, at the end of the day, evaluating is, have I grown, not have I succeeded?

这是两个完全不同的问题。

And that's a very different question.

重要的是今天学到了什么，而不是今天做对了什么或做错了什么。

It's what have I learned today, not what did I get right or wrong today.

作为父母，我肯定犯过无数错误，但有一件事我很庆幸，就是我和丈夫很早就对孩子实行了这样的做法：每当他们从学校带回任何成绩、考试或作业，我们都会尽量不去对分数做出反应。

There's a million things I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent, but one of the things that I'm happy that my husband and I implemented early on with our kids is when they would bring home any sort of grade or test or paper from school, we we would try really hard not to react to the grade.

我们只会问：你明白自己做了什么吗？

All we would say is, do you understand what you did?

你明白自己哪里错了吗？

Do you do you understand what you got wrong?

你尽力了吗？

Did you try your best?

我觉得这些确实是我们在一天结束时都应该问自己的好问题。

And I think those are actually great questions for us all to ask ourselves at the end of a day.

不是我做对了还是做错了。

Not did I get it right or wrong.

而是我学到了什么，我有没有尽力？

It's what did I learn, and did I try my best?

我学到了什么，我有没有尽力？

What did I learn, and did I try my best?

这真美好。

That's a beautiful thing.

所以每天结束时，问自己两个问题。

So two questions to ask yourself at the end of every day.

我学到了什么，我有没有尽力？

What did I learn and did I try my best?

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我真的学到了很多，而且我在听你教我们的时候，一直在反思自己的行为。

You know, I am really learning a lot, And I find myself constantly reflecting about my own behavior as I'm listening to everything that you're teaching us.

我敢打赌，你听的时候也是这样。

And I bet you are too as you're listening.

接下来我想做的是——

And here's what I wanna do.

我有很多顿悟。

I'm having so many ahas.

我还有很多问题，但我想先暂停一下，听听我们优秀赞助商的发言。

I've got so many more questions, but I wanna take a quick pause for a moment so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors.

但你们千万别走开，因为我们回来的时候，博士——

But don't you dare go anywhere because when we come back, Doctor.

——Chugh会讲推动别人改变和拉他们改变的区别。

Chugh is gonna talk about the difference between pushing somebody to change and pulling them.

她会解释让别人改变的三种方法，因为只有三种。

She'll explain the three ways that you get somebody to change because there's only three.

稍后，你还会学到一些很棒的东西，可以跟家人一起用，叫做‘一到十法则’。

And a little later, you're gonna learn all about something amazing you're gonna use with your family called the one to 10 rule.

别走开。

Don't go anywhere.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯，今天和我一起的是查格博士。

It's your friend Mel Robbins and I'm here with Doctor.

查格博士是获奖的社会心理学家，也是纽约大学斯特恩商学院的教授。

Chugh, an award winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business.

今天，她要教我们怎么应对生活中那些不肯改变的人，怎么不再浪费时间和精力，以及该怎么做，一步一步来。

Today, she is teaching you and me how to deal with people in your life who will not change, how to stop wasting your time and energy, and what to do step by step instead.

那么，查格博士。

So, Doctor.

楚格，我接下来有个问题。

Chugh, here's my next question.

我们在194个国家的听众中，最常听到的一个困扰就是那种“我不够好”的感觉。

One of the things that we hear from our audience in 194 countries is one of the things that people struggle with the most is this sense of I'm not good enough.

我听你讲的内容，你教我们的，就是我们对自己有道德标准，每天都在评判自己。

And when I listen to you and what you're teaching us, and that we hold moral standards over ourselves, and we judge ourselves every day.

咱们实话实说吧。

Let's just be honest.

你现在听的时候，想想你发了一条短信后，有多少次会对自己说“我真蠢”。

As you're listening right now, think about how many times you've sent a text and then you say, I'm an idiot.

我不该发那条的。

I shouldn't have written that.

想想你从派对上走出来，有多少次会因为自己的穿着而自责。

Think about how many times you walk out of a party and then you judge yourself for what you're wearing.

想想你一天工作结束离开时，告诉自己做得不够，却连自己参加的那100封邮件、Slack消息和Zoom会议都没给自己一点肯定。

Think about how you leave work at the end of the day and you tell yourself you didn't do enough, and yet you didn't even give yourself credit for the 100 emails and Slack messages and Zoom meetings that you attended.

我们一直在这样评判自己，难怪会觉得自己不够好。

And we're constantly holding this judgment over ourselves, so no wonder we don't feel good enough.

对。

Right.

这也让我意识到一件事。

Here's what it's also making me realize.

如果我对自己的评判这么苛刻，我现在才意识到我对别人也是多么挑剔和爱下判断。

If I'm this judgy of myself, I'm now realizing how judgy and opinionated I am of other people.

如果我对梅尔·罗宾斯每天要做什么才能算个好人都有一套标准，你能想象我对我丈夫克里斯托弗·罗宾斯要做什么才能算个好丈夫的那份清单有多长吗？

And if I have a standard for what Mel Robbins needs to do every day to be a good person, Can you imagine what the list looks like for what my husband Christopher Robbins needs to do to be a good husband?

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

如果我自己头上压着的那份清单已经长得离谱了，对。

If the list is impossibly long that I hold over my own head Right.

想象一下，我对我丈夫的那份清单有多长。

Imagine how long that list is for my husband.

我是说

I mean

我的孩子们。

my kids.

还有和我一起工作的人。

And the people I work with.

对。

Right.

还有我面前的陌生人。

And the stranger in front of me.

所以，我的意思是，问题是，我们怎么帮助别人改变？

So, I mean, the question is, how do we help others change?

我喜欢你用了“帮助”这个词。

I love how you said help.

对。

Yeah.

因为我在试图强迫、操控，这其实挺有意思的。

Because I'm trying to force, manipulate That's actually interesting.

贿赂，不管用什么办法。

Bribe, whatever it takes.

所以我们谈到的一件事，我是说，我完全赞成贿赂。

So one of the things we talk about I mean, I'm all for bribery.

到目前为止，我几十年来最有效的育儿技巧就是给孩子们唱歌。

My most effective parenting technique to date in a couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids.

他们不……这有效吗？

They don't is that effective?

因为我唱得很差，他们真的很不喜欢。

Because I'm a terrible singer, and they really don't like it.

所以如果我说做这个，做那个，没人听。

So if I'm saying do this, do nobody's listening.

没人理我。

I'm not getting anyone's attention.

然后我就开始唱《你是我的阳光》。

And then I I I start seeing you are my sunshine.

我可以给你的听众唱，但你会失去听众的。

I could do it for your audience, but you'd lose listeners.

来听听看。

Let's hear it.

你是我的阳光。

You are my sunshine.

看吧，就是这样的。

See, it's

天哪，我现在就想收拾东西，打扫房间了。

Oh my now I wanna pick up my stuff and clean my room.

我就想说，妈，什么都行，就是别唱了。

I'm like, anything mom but chill.

我会一直唱下去，直到他们做出反应。

And I'll keep going till they do the thing.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我

I

太喜欢这个了。

love this.

是不是很好？

Isn't that good?

为什么这招管用？

Why does that work?

这有点像拉而不是推。

It's a little bit of a pull versus a push.

对吧？

Right?

所以推就是直接说，去把房间收拾干净。

So a push is saying, go clean your room.

拉则是创造一种让你自己想去收拾房间的条件。

A pull is creating the conditions in which you wanna go clean your room.

因为他们想离开你。

Because they wanna leave you.

对。

Yeah.

哦。

Oh.

所以这真的是一个很大的……这感觉更像是在速降，说实话。

So and this is this is a big this is a big That feels more like a rappel, honestly.

可能是吧。

It might be.

对。

Yeah.

这倒也是。

That's fair.

确实有道理。

It's fair.

但在我教的领导力课程里，推和拉的区别非常重要。

But the push versus pull distinction is a really important one with the leadership classes I teach.

当我们试图影响别人时，有时候确实需要推，也就是直接指挥他们。

That when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push, and that means we're directing them.

我们直接告诉他们该怎么做。

We are telling them.

我们强迫他们去做。

We are forcing them.

这就是推的技巧，我们在工作场所经常能看到。

That's a push technique, and we see it in the workplace.

在家庭里也经常见到。

We see it in our families.

它有它的用武之地。

It has its place.

不过我们往往用得太多了。

We tend to overuse it, though.

而拉式技巧更多是创造一些条件，让人们自己愿意去做。

And so pull techniques are more about creating conditions under which people wanna do it on their own.

好的。

Okay.

就像你之前说的，我是自己的老板，我可能会问问题，或者给别人当个倾听者，让他们自己制定计划，自己找到对那件事的渴望和目标。

As you said earlier, where I am the boss of me, where I might be asking questions, or I might be being a sounding board for someone else to let them create their own plan, their own desire and purpose around the thing that I want them to do.

这几乎总是花更长时间，总是。

That almost always takes longer Always.

比推式更久。

Than push.

不过，如果有效的话，效果也会持续更久。

However, if it works, it lasts longer as well.

实际上，你能做些什么来帮助你爱的人改变呢？

Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love change?

实际上，你可以以身作则，展示改变。

Realistically, you can model change.

你可以邀请他们改变。

You can invite change.

你可以奖励改变，但你不能强迫任何人改变。

You can reward change, but you cannot make anyone change.

让我举个例子来说明什么是“以身作则”，因为我觉得这一点很重要。

Let me give an example of what I mean by model change because I think it's an important one.

有一个故事，可能真实也可能不真实，但它已经变成了一个传奇般的寓言。

There's a story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic fable proportions.

圣雄甘地，他是二十世纪四十年代印度非暴力运动的领袖之一，人们把他视为寻求智慧的对象。

Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the leaders of the nonviolence movement in India in the nineteen forties, he became seen as the person that people would go to for wisdom.

在这个关于他的寓言中，他会接待那些徒步数百英里来向他求教的人。

And in this fable that's told about him, he would receive people who would travel by foot, hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom.

有一天，这家人带着他们年幼的孩子来找他，说：“甘地先生，我们走了很远的路。”

And one day, this family came to him with their young child and said, Gandhiji, we have traveled a long way.

我们等了很久才轮到我们，我们需要您告诉我们的儿子，他正在消瘦下去，他必须吃饭，不能只吃糖。”

We've waited a long time for our turn, and we need you to tell our son who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar.

他只肯吃糖。

All he will eat is sugar.

甘地听了他们的话。

Gandhi listened to them.

他听到了他们的请求。

He heard their request.

他理解地点了点头，然后说：“请两周后再来。”

He nodded with understanding, and then he said, please come back in two weeks.

这不是他们期待的回答。

Not the response they were looking for.

他们走了很远的路。

They had traveled a long way.

他们已经等了很久了。

They had waited a long time.

他们的儿子正在日渐消瘦。

Their son is withering away.

再等两周。

Wait two weeks.

为什么？

Why?

但出于尊重，他们还是回了家。

But out of deference, they go back home.

两周后，他们又踏上了漫长的旅程。

Two weeks later, they make the long journey.

他们又等了很久才轮到他们。

They wait the long time for their turn.

他们来到了他的家门口。

They arrive at his doorstep.

他们说，甘地先生，求您帮帮我们的儿子吧。

They say, now please, Gandhiji, will you help us with our son?

他正在日渐消瘦。

He's withering away.

他现在只吃糖。

He's only eating sugar.

甘地对他们说，我的孩子，你必须停止吃糖。

And Gandhiji said to them, my son, you must stop eating sugar.

嗯，经历了这么多，这听起来有点扫兴。

Well, that seems like a bit of a buzzkill after all of that.

他们对他说，谢谢。

And they say to him, thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

但恕我直言，为什么您两周前不这么说呢？

But with all due respect, why couldn't you say that two weeks ago?

他说，因为两周前我还在吃糖。

And he said, because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar.

所以，当我们真的想帮别人改变时，第一步是想想我们自己能做什么来示范改变。

So the first step when we realistically wanna help someone change is to think about what we can do ourselves to model change.

这并不意味着我不想去给我们已经排得满满的日程再添点事。

Now that doesn't mean I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate.

我只是想说，在我们自己做的所有努力中，能不能让别人看到我们知道这很难？

I'm just trying to say, in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we know this is hard?

这就是我们在挣扎的事情。

And this is what we are struggling with.

所以，如果你的伴侣对孩子发脾气，你一直告诉他们别对孩子发脾气，但他们还是继续发脾气。

So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, stop snapping at the kids, and they keep snapping.

他们会变得防备。

They get defensive.

如果你谈谈你自己有时对孩子发脾气的挣扎，会怎么样呢？

What if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids?

如果你提到，你注意到在进家门之前在车里吃点零食，能帮你缓一缓，那会怎么样？

What if you mentioned that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment?

如果你谈谈你试过但没用的方法，以及你因为这些方法没用而感到多尴尬，那会怎么样？

What if you talked about the things that you've tried that haven't worked and how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked?

这个故事和例子真的很有帮助。

That's a super helpful story and example.

你提到的第二件事是，我们可以邀请对方改变。

The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change.

那具体是什么样的呢？

What does that look like?

邀请改变的例子是什么？

What's an example of inviting change?

邀请意味着创造一种条件，让对方能够去做，而且不会觉得不自在。

Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self conscious about it.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，你的伴侣没说，但假设他们打算去做，就像，好吧。

So let's say your partner says doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and, like, alright.

所以我不应该对孩子发火。

So I'm not supposed to snap at the kids.

我应该，尽管我很累，也许我会试着讲一个关于我一天的故事，或者试着搞笑，说点 relatable 的话，随便吧。

I'm supposed to but even though I'm tired, maybe what I'll do is try to tell a story about my day, or I'll try to be funny and, like, try to say something relatable, whatever.

当他们这样做的时候，会显得有点尴尬。

And when they do that, they come off a little awkward.

故事讲得太长了。

The story goes on too long.

他们不太明白。

They they don't quite get it.

孩子们都不听了。

The kids are tuning out.

如果我在那一刻说，你在干什么？

If I, in that moment, say, what are you doing?

这样帮不上忙。

This isn't helping.

那样并不能促使改变，因为他们刚刚做了些什么。

That's not inviting change because they just did something.

他们确实改变了一些东西。

They changed something.

虽然没成功，但他们尝试了。

It didn't work, but they tried.

所以，促使改变就是让那些旧习惯慢慢消退。

So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through.

哦，所以就是要去注意到那些小小的尝试。

Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts

对。

Yes.

并且要宽容对待。对。

And having grace Yes.

就是真的去理解，哦，这就是一个重新学习的过程。

And just kinda really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning process.

没错。

Exactly.

就是跌跌撞撞地摸索。

Stumbling through it.

这就是它的样子。

This is what it looks like.

这就是它的感觉。

This is what it feels like.

他们不可能一下子就学会不对孩子发火。

They're not gonna all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids.

那奖励是什么样的呢？

And what does reward look like?

你说过我们可以奖励改变。

You said we could reward change.

那会是什么样子？

What does that

那会是什么样子？

look like?

这要看情况，不管是公开还是私下，用你们之间表达爱的方式，告诉他们你注意到了。

Depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever the love language is in your scenario, telling them you noticed it.

你看到了。

You saw it.

你欣赏这一点。

You appreciate it.

如果你觉得有效，就真诚地告诉他们，我觉得那真的很有效。

If you think it worked, sincerely tell them, I think that really worked.

我看到我们女儿在你给她那段关注的时候，眼睛都亮了。

I saw our daughter light up when you when you gave her that moment of attention.

谢谢你听我说。

Thank you for hearing me.

我知道那很难。

I know that was hard.

你一定很累了。

You must be tired.

你知道吗，你怎么知道你的建议完全是白费时间？

You know, how do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time?

比如说，你有个朋友老是跟不尊重她的人约会。

For example, you have a friend that keeps dating people that disrespect her.

哦。

Oh.

他们一直在抱怨，或者抱怨他们八年的伴侣，但从来不按你的建议去做。

They're complaining about it, or they complain about their partner of eight years, but they never act on your advice.

对。

Right.

别再给建议了。

Stop giving advice.

那就别再给建议了。

Stop giving advice.

你怎么知道什么时候该停止给建议呢？

How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice?

对。

Yeah.

所以我喜欢“等待法则”。

So I like the wait rule.

什么是“等待法则”？

What's the wait rule?

我为什么要说这个？

Why am I talking?

哦，等等。

Oh, wait.

我为什么说“对”。

Why am Right.

这个规则不是我发明的。

I So I didn't come up with this.

我也不确定到底是谁先提出来的。

I don't think we know exactly who came up with it.

是迈克尔·邦吉·斯坦尼尔在他的书《提问的威力》里推广开来的。

It was popularized by Michael Bunge Stanier in his book, the coaching habit.

这个等待规则提醒我们，当我们说话的时候，尤其是谈论别人的问题时，我们几乎总是在对着他们说，而不是和他们一起说，这样就剥夺了他们的自主权，那种“我是自己的主人”的感觉。

The weight rule reminds us that when we're talking, especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them, which means that agency, that sense of I am my own boss, we're taking it away.

所以第一个问题是，他们到底有没有向我们寻求建议？

So the first question is, have they even asked for our advice?

我们大多数人都想帮助自己爱的人解决问题。

Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems.

但这并不一定意味着他们请我们帮忙解决他们的问题。

That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems.

还有一个很好的经验法则，就是当我们忍不住想帮别人解决问题时，先问问他们。

And another great little rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people when we feel tempted to solve their problems.

这个规则在工作场合可能不太适用，但在家庭里我觉得特别管用。

This one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families.

你是想被倾听、被拥抱，还是被帮助？

Do you wanna be heard, hugged, or helped?

然后我在这条规则上又加了一条，或者击个掌。

And then my addition to that rule is or high fived.

被倾听意味着他们需要发泄一下。

Heard means they need to vent.

在你那个例子里，伴侣需要的是发泄。

In your example, the partner needs to vent.

被拥抱意味着他们需要感受到被爱。

Hugged means they need to feel loved.

被帮助，就是他们需要我的建议，而且他们确实想要。

Helped, they need my advice, and they want it.

他们是在主动寻求帮助。

They're asking for it.

我加的击掌部分，是因为有时候我们很多人都希望别人能注意到我们有多努力、有多累、做得有多好。

And the high five piece that I've added is sometimes a lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying, how exhausted we are, how well we're doing.

尤其是作为女性，我们不太被允许直接说出这就是我们需要的。

And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need.

所以我们总是不断暗示，希望有人能给我们一个击掌。

So we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high five us.

所以就是：被倾听、被拥抱、被帮助，或者被击掌。

So heard, hugged, helped her high five.

比如朋友在抱怨。

So friend is complaining.

他们从不采纳我的建议。

They're never taking my advice.

我的第一个问题是，他们有没有主动要过建议？

My first question is, did they ever ask for it, The advice.

第二，假设他们确实要了建议，但又不采纳。

The second let's say they are asking for the advice and they're not taking it.

直接说出来，比如，我知道你问过我的建议。

To name that, say, I know you've asked for my advice.

我真的很感激，也一直很乐意提供建议，但我得先问你一个问题。

I'm really flattered by that, and I'm always happy to offer it, but I gotta ask you a question.

当你问我建议的时候，你是想让我帮你解决问题，还是只是想让我听你说说？

When you ask for my advice, do you mean you wanna be helped, or do you wanna be heard?

你是需要安慰吗？

Do you want to be hugged?

你现在是不是很难受？

Are you in pain?

你是想让我为你在家里是个好伴侣但没得到应有的关注而给你点赞吗？

Do you wanna be high fived for the fact that you're a great partner and you're not getting the attention you want at home?

你能多跟我说说，你说的“建议”具体指什么吗？

Can Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice?

这真的很有帮助，我很喜欢这四个分类，因为我觉得当我情绪低落或者情绪失控的时候，我常常不知道自己需要什么。

This is so helpful, and I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need.

对。

Yeah.

所以当有人问那四个问题时，我甚至可能会让自己都感到意外。

And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself.

我犯过的一个大错是，当有人来找我，他们情绪低落时，我犯的错误是试图立刻让他们振作起来。

One mistake I've absolutely made is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down, I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back up.

我也是。

Me too.

很多时候，当人们情绪低落时来找你，他们只是想要一个拥抱。

Oftentimes when people come to you in a moment when they're down, they just wanna hug.

他们想要拥抱。

They wanna hug.

他们不想要那些打气的话。

They don't want the pep talk.

他们不想被告诉要坚强。

They don't wanna be told to be strong.

他们不需要你去解决问题。

They don't want you to fix this.

他们需要的是安慰和陪伴。

They wanna be reassured and comforted.

所以我也喜欢“被倾听、被拥抱、被帮助、被击掌”这个说法，因为它能让我停下来。

And so I also like the heard hugged, helped, and high five because it stops me

对。

Yeah.

不要越界。

From stepping over a line.

我非常喜欢这个说法。

I like that a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

有趣的是，当我问这个问题时，我其实没数过，但我觉得90%的时候，我得到的回答是“听到了”。

The funny thing is when I've asked this question, I mean, I haven't actually counted, but I think 90% of the time, the answer I receive is heard.

Chugh博士，谢谢你这样解释。

Doctor Chugh, thank you for explaining that way.

你知道吗，我真的学到了很多，我想对你说的是。

You know, I am really learning a lot, and here's what I wanna say to you.

如果你生活中有人让你一直惦记着，因为我就一直惦记着我生活中那些我想改变的人，或者如果你生活中有人对自己很苛刻，真的能从我们今天学到的内容中受益，那就复制这期节目的链接分享给他们，同时听听我们精彩的赞助商广告。

If there's someone in your life that you keep thinking about, because I keep thinking about the people in my life that I'm trying to change, or if you have somebody in your life who's really hard on themselves and could really benefit from what we're learning today, just copy a link to this episode and share it with them while you're listening to our amazing sponsors.

请继续收听。

Stay with me.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我是你的朋友Mel Robbins。

It's your friend Mel Robbins.

今天，你和我一起向Dolly Chugh博士学习，她是一位获奖的社会心理学家，也是纽约大学斯特恩商学院的教授。

And today, you and I are learning from doctor Dolly Chugh, who's an award winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business.

她在教我们怎么应对生活中那些不肯改变的人。

She is teaching you and me how to deal with people in our lives who will not change.

那么，博士。

So, Doctor.

丘格。

Chugh.

我们来聊聊难搞的人吧。

Let's talk about difficult people.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来聊聊那种总是越界的人。

So let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line.

对。

Yeah.

我生活中有个人，就是特别喜欢戳人痛处。

I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab.

我不知道这是不是谈话风格的问题，但我敢打赌，当你回想生活中那些难相处的人时，总有一些人只要在场，你就会感到紧张。

I don't know if it's conversational style, but I bet as you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life, that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge.

你就在等着那一刻。

You're just waiting for it.

你等着他们说出那些带刺的话。

You're waiting for the political mark.

你等着他们贬低你。

You're waiting for the dismiss.

你等着他们说那些阴阳怪气的话。

You're waiting for them to say the passive aggressive thing.

对。

Mhmm.

那你怎么应对那种人呢？

How do you handle somebody Yeah.

就是那种说话带刺或者很难相处的人？

That is insulting or difficult?

我觉得很多人都有同感，有时候你甚至害怕家庭聚会，因为那个叔叔肯定会讽刺你，而且常常是往下踩的那种。

I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing, and sometimes it's at the level of you're dreading the family gathering because that uncle is gonna jab and often jab down, punch down.

而且，他们就是希望你上钩。

And by the way, they want you to take the bait.

听好了。

Now listen.

我们确实要小心，因为那个人可能真的在伤害房间里的人，也在伤害外面的人。

We do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world.

但在那一刻，我们能做的不是跟他来回争辩，给他更多关注，

But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth

对。

Yes.

而是可以削弱他的气势。

We can take some of the oxygen out.

那你怎么削弱呢？

How do you take

把氧气抽走？

the oxygen out?

所以他说了那句话，你可以说，哎哟，或者哇，或者天哪。

So he says the thing, can say, ouch or woah or my gosh.

你看上去没那么老，怎么会这么老派。

You don't look old enough to be that old fashioned.

现在你要明白，我并不是在挑起争论。

Now realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument.

我是在告诉房间里的其他人，刚才我们听到的话是不对的。

What I am doing is telling everyone else in the room, that's not okay what we just heard.

我唯一说过的话，是有一次听杰斐逊·费舍尔说的，特别管用，就是：你真的是故意把这话说出口的吗？

The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say, and it works like a charm, which is, did you actually mean to say that out loud?

对。

Yes.

我也喜欢这个说法。

I like that too.

因为你是因为他们会是什么反应呢？

Because you are because what are they gonna be like?

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，听起来像个混蛋，而且，你知道，就像，不。

I mean to sound like a dickhead and, like, you know, like, and no.

他们，会有一种奇怪的沉默，然后你就站起来收拾桌子。

They there's kind of a weird silence thing that happens, and then you get up and clear the table.

是的。

Yeah.

但很多时候，我就是觉得不值得回应。

But often, I just find it's not worth a response.

这又是一个例子，你不给他们氧气，但也不表示赞同。

It's another example of you're you're not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it.

我们来谈谈如何应对那些非常防备的人。

Let's talk about dealing with somebody who gets really defensive.

好的。

Okay.

那种特别难沟通的人，你刚想给点反馈，不管是工作上的，对，

The kind of person that is so hard to talk to because the second you try to give feedback, whether it's at work Yeah.

还是对你成年兄弟姐妹的，

Or it's to one of your adult siblings

对。

Right.

他们立马就防御起来了。

They immediately get defensive.

那种情况你怎么办？

What do you do in that situation?

这种情况太常见了。

So this happens all the time.

我收到反馈时也会很防御。

I get defensive when I get feedback.

我注意到，当我给别人提意见时，他们也会变得很防备。

I've noticed other people get defensive when I give them feedback.

有时候问题不在于他们的防备心。

Sometimes the problem isn't the defensiveness.

而在于你提意见的方式。

It's the feedback.

哦。

Oh.

所以，我想让他们成为问题所在。

And so let But I want them to be the problem.

我不想让我的意见成为问题，医生。

I don't want my feedback to be the problem doctor.

相信我。

Trust me.

他们才是问题所在。

They are the problem.

但咱们得想办法让他们明白问题出在他们自己身上。

But let's figure out how we can show them that they're the problem.

所以，反馈这个词经常和形容词联系在一起。

So feedback is a word that's often equated with adjectives.

我说的形容词是什么意思呢？

So what do I mean by adjectives?

我可能会对某人说，你的工作不够精细，或者不够彻底。

I might say to someone, your work isn't polished enough, or it's not thorough enough.

精细和彻底就是形容词。

Polished and thorough are adjectives.

对于“精细”这个词，有很多种理解方式。

There's a lot of ways to understand what polished means.

他们可能觉得那意味着没有错别字。

They might think that means there's no typos.

他们可能觉得那意味着幻灯片里有好的动画效果。

They might think that means there's, like, good animation in their slides.

他们可能会觉得那是指他们跟客户说话的方式。

They might think that means the way they talk to the customer.

他们可能会觉得那是指他们上班穿什么衣服。

They might think that means that they're wearing certain clothes to work.

我是说，“打磨到位”可以有很多种理解。

I mean, polished could mean a lot of things.

所以当我们用形容词来给反馈时，别人很容易产生防御心理，因为他们很容易反驳。

And so when we give feedback that's in adjectives, it's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it.

哦，那你怎么给反馈才能让人没法反驳呢？

Oh, so how do you give feedback that somebody can't argue with?

那种很难被反驳、而且实际上更容易执行的反馈，是聚焦在行为上的。如果你想要改变，你就能得到你想要的改变。

The feedback that's hard to argue with and that's actually easier to act on so if you're looking for a change, they you'll actually get the change you want is it focuses on the behavior.

所以我会说，我注意到在幻灯片里，我们提到客户业务的方式有不一致的地方。

So I might say, I've noticed that on the slides, there are inconsistencies in the way we refer to the client's business.

一张幻灯片上写的是他们从事酒店业，另一张写的是餐饮业。

On one slide, it said they were in the hospitality business, and in the other slide, it said food and beverage.

在我看来，这说明我们还没有仔细校对过。

To me, that looks like we haven't gone through and done a thorough proofread.

还不够精致。

It's not polished enough.

你看，一旦我列出了具体的行为，就无可争辩了。

So do you see how once I laid out the actual behaviors, it's indisputable.

我就是，你知道，这里写着酒店业。

I just you know, it says hospitality here.

那里写着餐饮业。

It says food and beverage there.

这是一个具体的行为，现在我可以说了，这就是我说的不够精致的意思。

It's a specific behavior, and now I can say, that's what I mean by it's not polished enough.

哦，你知道吗，你刚才说的时候，我有什么感觉？

Oh, you know what I I felt as you were saying that?

什么感觉？

What's that?