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嗨。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
今年，我和丈夫要庆祝我们结婚三十周年。
So this year, my husband and I are celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary.
周年纪念。
Anniversary.
我知道，这可真够久的。
I know, that's a long time.
很多人问我，梅尔，维持一段长久关系的秘诀是什么？
And people often ask me, Mel, what is the secret to a lasting relationship?
我会跟你们说，我是在开玩笑。
And I'll tell you, I joke.
我说，梅丽·克里斯托弗·罗宾斯。
I say, Merry Christopher Robbins.
因为他总是特别冷静。
Because the dude is so calm.
而我呢，我就是那个动不动就爆发的人，像火山，像飓风。
Me on the other hand, I am the eruptor, eruptor, the volcano, the hurricane.
说实话，每段关系都会有冲突。
And here's the truth, like every relationship, we have conflict.
我们会吵架，会烦躁，会互相惹毛对方。
We fight, we have frustrations, we irritate each other.
有起有落，我们都经历过。
We've had our ups, we've had our downs.
但我要告诉你，听了接下来这集节目，跟两位最顶尖的关系研究专家的对话后，我特别期待今晚回家找克里斯，把刚学到的所有方法都用起来。
But let me tell you something, Because of what I just learned in the episode that you're about to listen to with two of the greatest relationship researchers of all time, I am so excited to go home to Chris tonight and to practice everything that I just learned.
顺便说一句，我也反思了这些年自己对克里斯做过的一些不太好的事，想好好道个歉。
And by the way, apologize for a lot of what I saw in myself that was not so great for Chris over the years.
听完这集，你会对爱情充满期待，对关系的可能性充满希望。
And you're gonna leave this episode feeling so excited about love, excited about what's possible.
你一定要听听德鲁·戈特曼的精彩分享
I cannot wait for you to experience the magic of Dr.
约翰和朱莉·戈特曼夫妇
John and Dr.
他们花了五十多年研究亲密关系的科学原理
Julie Gottman, who have spent over fifty years researching the science of relationships.
戈特曼夫妇会现场演示关系中最常见的四种破坏性行为
The Gottmans are going to role play the four biggest behaviors in every single relationship that drive people apart.
我说的现场演示，就是真刀真枪地吵架
And by role play, I mean, they're gonna have the arguments.
我可不是在开玩笑
I kid you not.
这太震撼了，你会看到自己的影子
This is so incredible because you're gonna see yourself.
你也会看到你现在的伴侣
You're gonna see your current partner.
事实上，你可能会重温和前任的某个瞬间，明白你们为什么会分开。
In fact, you may even relive a moment with an ex and understand why you're not together anymore.
但更重要的是，戈特曼夫妇会教你如何正确处理冲突，让矛盾不再升级，反而拉近你们的距离。
But more importantly, the Gottmans are gonna teach you exactly how to handle conflict in a way that diffuses tension and brings you closer together rather than tearing the relationship apart.
如果你正想着：‘我们其实很少吵架。’
And if you're sitting there thinking, Well, we don't really fight.
‘我用不着看这个。’
I don't need this.
他们会告诉你，回避冲突才是导致你感到疏远和孤独的原因。
They will tell you, avoiding conflict is why you feel disconnected and lonely.
如果你在想：‘我现在没在谈恋爱，但我真的需要看这个。’
If you're thinking, Well, I'm not really in a relationship right now, I really need this.
没错，你确实需要。
Oh, yeah, you do.
因为你不想一再重复同样的错误。
And the reason why you do is you don't want to keep repeating the same mistakes.
你会感觉特别有力量。
You're gonna feel so empowered.
你会更了解自己。
You're gonna know yourself better.
你会明白哪些该避开，哪些该做。
You're gonna know what to avoid and actually what to do.
而且，你即将学到的这些内容，充满人性的温度，会让你笑中带泪。
And just, I mean, the humanity of all of this that you're about to learn and laugh, oh my god, you're gonna tear up.
你会重新对爱情充满期待。
You're gonna feel excited about being in love again.
不管你是在约会、单身、已婚还是离异，都准备好迎接戈特曼夫妇的这份礼物吧。
So whether you're dating, you're single, you're married, you're divorced, get ready for the gift of the Gottmans.
你好，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
能和你共度这段时光，我感到非常荣幸。
It's an honor to spend this time with you.
如果你是第一次听，或者有人把这期节目分享给你，我想亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭。
If you're new or if somebody sent this episode to you, I wanna personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
今天，在波士顿的演播室里，我们有两位世界知名的研究人员，他们花了五十年时间研究什么能让关系蓬勃发展，什么会让关系破裂。
Today, in our Boston studios, we have two world renowned researchers who have spent fifty years researching what makes relationships thrive and what makes them fall apart.
我说的就是那位世界闻名的朱莉·施瓦茨·戈特曼博士。
I'm talking about none other than world renowned Doctor.
还有她的丈夫，戈特曼博士。
Julie Schwartz Gottman and her husband, Doctor.
约翰·戈特曼。
John Gottman.
在过去五十年的爱情与关系研究中，他们发表了数百篇学术论文。
Over the fifty years that they've been researching love and relationships, they've published hundreds of academic articles.
他们撰写了52本关于爱情、婚姻和冲突的畅销书。
They've written 52 bestselling books on love, marriage, and conflict.
他们运营着全球最著名的关系研究实验室。
They run the most famous relationship research lab in the world.
他们是戈特曼研究所的创始人，该机构在全球范围内培训临床工作者，传授如何促进和维系更健康、更深厚的亲密关系的科学方法。
They are the founders of the Gottman Institute, which trains clinicians all over the world in the science of fostering and sustaining greater love and health in relationships.
他们简直就是每一位婚姻治疗师最推崇的婚姻治疗专家。
They are quite simply every couples therapist's favorite couples therapist.
如果你从未接触过婚姻治疗，那猜猜看？
And if you don't have any experience in couples therapy, well, guess what?
你马上就能免费获得来自全球最顶尖研究者的一课。
You're about to get it for free from the single greatest researchers in the world.
关于这个话题，他们写的书就是权威教材。
They literally wrote the book on it.
他们专程横跨整个国家，只为来到这里为你分享。
They have flown all the way across the country to be here for you.
我跟你说，你听完一定会爱上他们。
And trust me when I tell you, you're about to fall in love with them.
所以，请大家用热烈的掌声欢迎杰出的戈特曼博士。
So please help me welcome the extraordinary, Dr.
约翰博士，还有朱莉·戈特曼博士，
John and Dr.
欢迎来到梅尔·罗宾斯的播客。
Julie Gottman, to the Mel Robbins podcast.
梅尔，我们特别高兴能来到这里。
Oh, we're so happy to be here, Mel.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thank you.
该是我的荣幸。
Oh, honor's mine.
是我的荣幸。
Honor is mine.
我想请您先回想一下，你们研究了成千上万对夫妻，积累了这份跨越五十年的非凡成果。
You know, I would love to have you start by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched and this extraordinary body of work that spans fifty years.
然后请对正在听节目的朋友说几句，告诉他们，如果把这项研究和智慧真正放在心上，并立刻付诸实践，他们的关系会发生怎样的改变。
And speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might change about their relationships if they really take to heart all of this research and wisdom, and they apply it as soon as they're done listening.
对。
Mhmm.
真好。
Beautiful.
我觉得有两件事会真正带来改变。
I think two things I would say that really change.
第一，希望冲突——这在每段关系中都再正常不过了——能变得更平静、更温和、更有建设性，也更有同理心。
One is that, hopefully, conflict, which is absolutely normal in every relationship, becomes more calm, more gentle, and more constructive, also more compassionate.
因为冲突的核心，其实是更好地理解你的伴侣。
Because the real theme of conflict is to understand your partner better.
而不是去打压对方。
It's not to tear your partner down.
而是真正走进他们的内心，理解他们的想法和感受。
It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from.
所以，希望听完你这期精彩的节目后，这样的转变能发生。
So, hopefully, hopefully, that might take place after listening to your beautiful show.
其次，我觉得他们可能会更多地表达感激之情。
And I would say, secondly, maybe they do more to express gratitude.
他们会更主动地问伴侣问题，真正了解对方此刻内心的想法。
Maybe they ask more questions of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally.
也许他们刚谈恋爱时了解对方，但人是会成长和变化的。
They may have known them when they were first dating, knew that world, but people evolve and change.
那现在的他们，究竟是什么样的呢？
So who are they now?
多提问，才能让这些慢慢浮现出来。
Asking questions draws that out.
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
我想说，在过去五十四年里，我和我的朋友鲍勃·莱文森一直研究伴侣关系，刚开始的时候，我们根本不知道什么才是维系关系的关键。
I would I would say that, in all the fifty four years of of studying couples and my friend Bob Levinson and I started this research way back then, and neither of us had a clue about what makes relationships work.
我们从一个灾难跳到另一个灾难。
We went from one disaster to another.
如果非得用一句话总结，我有个小妙招，一直揣在口袋里——一个小本子。
And if I was gonna boil it down to one thing, I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket, and it's a little notebook.
我随时随地都带着它。
And I keep it there all the time.
每当朱莉说出那四个让人害怕的字——我们得谈谈，
And if Julie utters the four terrifying words, we need to talk.
我就会慢悠悠地掏出本子，好让自己有时间缓一缓。
I get out my notebook very slowly so I can delay my reaction.
我慢慢拿出笔，再慢慢翻开本子。
I get out my pen very slowly, and I open the book up very slowly.
然后我说：好啊，宝贝。
And then I say, okay, baby.
说吧，我听着。
Talk to me.
你心里在想什么？
What's on your mind?
你心里有什么感受？
What's on your heart?
我会把她的话记下来。
And I write down what she's saying.
我越觉得防御，就越会多记笔记，放慢她的节奏。
And the more defensive I feel, the more I take notes and slow her down.
因为我们发现，那些关系经营得好的人，幸福又长久的伴侣，其实都有一个共同模式：当你的另一半有任何不开心的时候，全世界都会停下来，你专心听。
Because I think the one thing we've discovered is that the masters of relationships, the ones who are happy and stay together, really seem to have a model that when your partner is upset about anything, the world stops, and you listen.
我记笔记、慢慢来，就是我的倾听方式，这样我能让自己冷静下来，不至于冲动地说出日后后悔的话。
And this is my way of listening, taking notes, and doing it very slowly so I can calm down and not react quickly by saying something I'll regret later on.
我想说一句
I wanna just
等等。
pause.
好的，亲爱的。
Okay, honey.
你知道你们俩最可爱的地方是什么吗？
You know what's adorable about you two?
如果你在听，我就直接说出来了。
And if you're listening, I'm just gonna describe it.
如果你正在看这一集，应该已经注意到了，你们俩总是不自觉地转向对方，微笑着，当对方说话时，你们的眼神里充满了温暖和爱意。
If you're watching this episode, you will have already seen it, is that you both keep turning toward one another and smiling, and you have this very warm, loving gaze at one another as the other is talking.
这样的画面，谁能不爱呢？
How can you not love this?
这太美了。
This is beautiful.
你们还一直牵着手，身体上也有这种亲密的接触。
And you also are, like, holding hands, and there's a there's a physical touch connection
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Mhmm.
这一点非常明显，因为情侣之间很少见到这样的互动。
Which is extremely noticeable because you don't see it all that often in couples.
我想好好聊聊你当时的回应有多巧妙，戈特曼博士。
And I wanted to just unpack the genius of your response, Dr.
面对那句让人害怕的‘我们得谈谈’，你是怎么应对的。
Gottman, to those four terrifying words, we need to talk.
没错。
Right.
我现在也意识到，有时候我没有给克里斯足够的缓冲，让他提前做好心理准备，知道我马上就要像火山一样爆发。
Which I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at him like a volcano.
但我特别欣赏的是，你刚才描述的这个举动，显然不是随意的——当你想象戈特曼博士时，
But what I loved, because I do think there is something very intentional about what you just described, that as you're imagining Doctor.
他身体前倾，伸手从后口袋掏出一本只有三乘五英寸大小的笔记本，慢慢打开，然后开始写，这正是他倾听的方式。
Gottman, and he leaned forward and he reached into his back pocket, and he pulled out a notebook that's like the size of a three by five card, or you opened it up slowly, and then you said you started to write, and that is your way of listening.
但你听的时候也要注意到，你其实也在很好地控制自己的反应。
But it's so important to also point out as you're hearing this that you are also managing your reaction Exactly.
就在可能演变成争吵或冲突的那一刻。
In the middle of what could become an argument or conflict.
对。
Yeah.
延迟反应能让你调动前额叶，而不是直接被杏仁核牵着走，你知道的，那可是恐惧和防御的源头。
Delay is the way of engaging the frontal lobes instead of reacting direct from your amygdala, you know, which is terror, right, and defensiveness comes out.
所以当你动用理性思考的时候，就能少一点防御性。
So when you engage the brain, the thinking brain, then you can be a little less defensive.
对。
Yeah.
我想补充一点，你还能降低身体的生理唤醒程度。
Let me add that you can be, less physiologically aroused.
没错。
Right.
我们研究发现，有时候人们虽然像约翰和我现在这样平静地坐着，却可能在发生冲突，而他们的心率已经超过了每分钟100次。
You know, one of the things that we found in our research is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now having a conflict, but one of their heart rates will be over a 100 beats a minute.
这意味着他们进入了战斗或逃跑状态，血液从前额叶皮层撤离，流向了运动皮层。
And they've gone into fight or flight, which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex, moved back into the motor cortex.
他们没法清晰地思考、认真地倾听、解决问题，也别想有创造力。
They cannot think clearly, listen clearly, problem solve, and be creative.
这根本不可能，因为这部分大脑已经停摆了。
It's impossible because this is offline.
所以约翰慢慢拿出笔记本，这个动作其实有好几个好处。
So by John pulling out that notebook very slowly, there's a couple of ways it's wonderful.
首先，它能帮你保持冷静。
For one, it keeps you calm.
没错。
Right.
它还能让你更专注于认知层面，对。
It keeps you more focused on kind of the cognitive element Yeah.
关注我在说什么，而不是去想他是不是真的那样做了。
Of what I'm saying as opposed to, oh, did he?
她真的说过那句话吗？
Did she really say that?
对我来说，这告诉我的是，天哪，他会认真对待我。
Or or for me, what it tells me is that, gosh, he's gonna take me seriously.
对吧？
Right?
他根本不会去想，好吧。
He's not gonna be thinking about, okay.
什么时候该给车换机油了？
When do I get the oil changed in the car?
我能看出来他在听，因为他在做笔记，这让我觉得很有意义。
I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes, and that's meaningful for me.
这能让我感受到他的关注，你们大家也都可以试试这样做，效果很好。
It helps me to feel his presence, and it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well.
我太喜欢了。
I love that.
我能想象戈特曼医生听到这儿会说，等等。
And I I could imagine doctor Gottman reaching hold hold on.
让我把笔记本从口袋里拿出来。
Let me get my notebook out of my pocket here.
你在实验室里研究爱情。
You study love in a lab.
对。
Mhmm.
这具体是什么意思？
What does that mean?
对于不了解你开创性关系研究的人，你到底在做些什么？
For the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships, What do you do?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，朱莉和我，在我们刚认识之后，就设计了一个实验，让130对新婚夫妇在结婚后仅仅几个月的时间里，住进来待上24小时。
So, Julie and I, after we first met, you know, we designed this apartment where a 130 newlywed couples, just a couple of months after the wedding, would spend twenty four hours.
摄像头全程开着。
The camera is rolling.
没有任何指令。
No instructions.
他们可以一起吃饭、一起收拾、看报纸、看电视，想做什么就做什么，摄像头就一直录着。
You know, they have an opportunity to eat together, clean up together, you know, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they wanna do, and the cameras are just rolling.
他们走动的时候，我们还在监测他们的心率。
And while they're walking around, we're measuring their heart rate.
他们还测量了各种生理指标。
They're measuring all kinds of physiological measures.
每次他们上厕所，我们都会取血样，检测压力激素。
Every time they urinate, we take a blood we take a sample and measure stress hormones.
第二天我们还会再抽一次血，分析他们的免疫系统和压力激素水平。
And then we take blood from them the next day and and look at the immune system and stress hormones and the immune system.
所以我们只是在观察这些夫妻。
So we're just kind of watching couples.
结果发现，通过他们在公寓实验室里的互动方式，我们能预测他们六年后的感情走向。
And it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab.
所以预测的准确率高达百分之九十四。
So the prediction is really 94% accurate at predicting the future.
也就是说，你们能以百分之九十四的准确率判断哪对夫妻能走下去，哪对不行？
So you could predict with 94% accuracy who is gonna make it and who wasn't?
没错。
Right.
正是这样。
That's right.
这简直就是最早的真人秀。
This is like the original reality TV.
听起来你们是开创了这种形式。
It sounds like you guys invented the format.
没错。
That's right.
我还要补充一下，这位了不起的先生开发了一套非常出色的系统，用来编码情绪。
Let me add also that this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions.
就是通过观察面部表情、身体动作、用词、语调和眼神，来判断说话者当时正在经历什么情绪。
That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words, the tone of voice, the eye gaze, and assessing from that what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak.
那另一个人又会怎么回应呢？
Then what's the other individual gonna respond with?
那种感觉是什么样的？
What kind of feeling is that?
我们把这个叫做SPAP，也就是特定情绪编码，专门分析情绪表现。
So we call that SPAP, specific affect, which means emotion, specific affect coding.
光是这套方法，就能让我们对两人之间的互动模式有很深的了解。
And that in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic.
谁在表现得咄咄逼人？
Who's being belligerent?
谁在强势主导？
Who's being domineering?
谁表现得顺从？
Who is being subordinate?
谁在表现善意？
Who's being kind?
如果说错了话，谁会主动补救，以免对方受伤？
Who's trying to make a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings right.
用幽默来缓和气氛。
Humor as a way to wind things down.
幽默其实非常重要。
Humor turns out to be very important.
没错。
Right.
为什么我们在关系中处理冲突的方式如此关键？
Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship?
因为我们总是吵架。
Because we fight all the time.
我们都是普通人。
We are human beings.
梅尔，从我小时候起，我就一直在想，为什么人会对彼此这么刻薄。
You know, one of the things, Mel, that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is how come people are mean to each other.
这到底是为什么？
Why is that?
什么才算恶？
What's evil?
‘恶’这个词到底是什么意思？
What does that even mean?
通过大量阅读考古资料，我逐渐明白，人天生就有攻击性。
What I've really understood from lots of archaeological reading and so on is that people have aggression.
但人也有利他的一面。
They've also got altruism.
他们也可以非常非常善良。
They can be very, very kind.
但我们每个人内心都藏着攻击的本能。
But all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us.
那这种本能会怎样呢？
So what happens with it?
通常，我们会把情绪发泄在最亲近的人身上，因为我们觉得他们不会离开，不会跑掉。
Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us because that person we assume is not gonna abandon us, is not gonna run away.
他们会留下来听我们倾诉。
They're gonna be there to listen to us.
所以，我们和伴侣在性格上、生活方式上都会有差异。
And so we have personality differences from our partner, lifestyle preference differences from our partner.
每个人都会这样。
Everybody has those.
有六成九的夫妻矛盾，其实是长期存在的问题。
And sixty nine percent of the issues couples struggle with are perpetual conflicts.
这些问题永远不会消失。
They never ever go away.
这让我们大吃一惊。
That was a big surprise to us.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它们总会以不同的形式，从侧面不断冒出来，对吧？
So they just keep coming up, right, over and over and over again in some different format through the side door.
那你能怎么办呢？
So what do you do with that?
人们可能会回避这些问题，把它们藏起来，表面上看是没冲突，但通常会越来越疏远。
Well, people can avoid those, sweep them under the rug, but, you know, they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant typically Mhmm.
时间一长，就是这样。
Over time.
或者，他们可以学会平静地沟通，带一点情绪，但更多是理性地去解决问题。
Or they can learn to really talk in a way that's calm, little bit of emotion, emotion, maybe a little more intellectual, you know, trying to solve the problem very fast.
我们把这些叫作验证者。
We call those validators.
然后就是我了。
And then there's me.
我是个容易激动的人，可能你也一样，我们喜欢爆发。
I'm a volatile like maybe you are, and we love to explode.
我们热衷于 passionately 表达自己的情绪。
We love to be passionate about expressing our emotions.
而我是个回避冲突的人。
And I'm a conflict avoider.
这组合还挺妙的。
It's a great combo.
所以我们慢慢摸索出了办法。
So we figured it out over time.
接下来我们会聊聊这些不同类型。
We're gonna get into these different types.
但在深入之前，我想先聊聊这项研究，因为你已经提到过，在‘爱情实验室’里观察一对夫妻，就能以94%的准确率预测他们六年后是否还会在一起。
But before we do, I wanna just talk a little bit about the research because it's so You've already mentioned that by observing a couple in this Apartment Love Lab, you could predict with 94% accuracy whether or not they were gonna be together in six years.
没错。
That's
对。
right.
接下来我们会讲讲，你们当时观察到哪些关键迹象，能判断一对夫妻最终会分开。
We're gonna get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not gonna make it.
不过还有一项很有趣的发现，是关于吵架的前三分种如何决定一切的。
But there's also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything.
对。
Right.
说说看这个。
Let's hear about that.
鲍勃和我发现，如果让夫妻就一个冲突话题讨论十五分钟，我们几乎能以90%的准确率预测他们最终是会离婚还是继续在一起。
You know, Bob and I found that that if we we had couples talk about a conflict issue for fifteen minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together.
而且还能预测他们如果在一起，是过得幸福还是不幸福。
And if they stay together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be.
但后来我实验室里一位叫西姆普尔·卡里尔的研究员问：如果我们去掉最后三分钟的数据，只保留十二分钟，预测效果会怎样？
But then somebody in my lab, Simple Career, said, what if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have twelve minutes?
只用十二分钟的数据，预测准确率还高吗？
What's the prediction like with only twelve minutes of data?
结果发现，效果依然很好。
And it was just fine.
于是她又提议：那再砍掉三分钟呢？
And she said, well, let's lop off another three minutes.
结果还是没问题。
And it was just fine.
她一直把时间压缩到最初的三分钟，发现仅仅靠这前三分钟的表现，我们依然能非常准确地预测这段关系的未来。
She got down to the first three minutes, and we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes.
因为那些最终会离婚或长期不幸福的夫妻，一开始的对话方式，和那些我们称之为关系高手的夫妻，根本就是两回事。
Because couples who really are gonna wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently from couples who are we call the masters of relationship.
这个开头太关键了。
That beginning is so important.
现在我明白了。
Now I'm like, okay.
那什么样的开头能预示着离婚和分手呢？
Well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup
没错。
Right.
而什么样的开头则不会呢？
Versus the beginning that doesn't?
我有个想法。
I have an idea.
我们来角色扮演一下吧。
Let's role play it.
就这么干。
Let's do it.
我们来模拟一下吧。
Let's role play it.
好啊。
Sure.
行吧。
Alright.
这样下去，情况就会恶化。
So this is predictive of going down.
是的。
Yeah.
其实我一直想跟你聊聊这事。
Well, so I I I wanted to talk to you about this.
我觉得你真的在毁掉这段婚姻。
I really think that you're you're really ruining this marriage.
这责任在你，因为你太偏执、太强迫了，等等
It's it's it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive, compulsive Wait
等一下。
a minute.
让我把话说完。
Let me finish.
我不会让你说完的。
I'm not gonna let you finish.
你太邋遢了，我连客厅都走不过去。
You're such a slob that, you know, I can't even walk through the living room.
我这是随性有魅力。
I am charmingly sloppy.
但你真的有点疯。
But you are really a nut.
我的意思是，你真的该去接受心理辅导。
I mean, you're you need therapy.
你真的需要。
You really do.
我的意思是，对你来说，一切都得完美无缺。
I mean, everything has to be perfect for you.
一切都会完美的。
Everything's gonna be perfect.
没错，就是这样。
Well, that's right.
我甚至都不想说了，和你住在一起，我都得去接受心理治疗。
And I need therapy just to live with I don't even wanna
咱们别再谈这个了。
talk about this anymore.
行吧。
Alright.
我现在总算明白当婚姻咨询师是什么感觉了。
I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist.
看着你们俩这样。
Watching the two of you.
你还没见过真正的呢。
You ain't seen nothing.
那还能更糟。
That could be worse.
我以前接待过一个女士，她特别崩溃，个子才一米五左右，她丈夫却有一米九五，还出轨了，诸如此类。
I once had somebody who was so upset, so flooded, and she was all of about four foot ten, and her husband was six five and had cheated on her, etcetera.
所以我试着让她平静下来。
So I tried to calm her down.
她终于坐到了沙发上，而我的沙发是那种漂亮的红色真皮沙发，特别好看。
She finally sat down on the couch, and my couch was a beautiful red leather gorgeous couch.
她走的时候，沙发上留下了抓痕。
When she left, there were scratch marks on the couch.
那
That
她的心率都飙升了。
that can be heart rate was up.
我猜那一定
I bet it
是啊，没关系。
was That's fine.
所以你来说说清楚
So unpack
当时到底发生了什么？我觉得我们都经历过类似的争吵，不管是关于感情，还是现在争孩子给太多钱、管得太严，诸如此类的问题。
what was happening in that because I think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights, whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about, well, you're you're you're giving the kid too much money and that that that and you're over parenting and, like, you know, aiming it.
你刚那场架，到底是因为什么吵起来的？
Like, what was happening in that fight you just had?
我当时把问题归咎于她的性格缺陷，觉得她这个人有问题。
So I was describing the problem in terms of her personality being deficient, that there was something wrong with her.
全是她的错。
It was all her fault.
所以你，你，你，你。
So you, you, you, you.
他就说了这些。
That's all he was saying.
我当然就防御起来了，还反过来指责他。
And, of course, I got defensive, and I counterattacked.
这可是典型的防御反应。
That's a classic form of defensiveness.
你就会反咬一口。
You counterattack.
没错。
Right.
然后我就开始指责你你你你，全都是在说性格问题。
So then I moved in to you, you, you, you, and it was all about character flaws.
他就是个邋遢鬼。
He's They're slob.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yes.
我只是想给她提点意见，指出她的问题，好让她改进。
And all I'm doing is trying to give her feedback about what's wrong with her so she can improve.
在我看来，我几乎完美无缺。
Because I'm pretty much perfect as far as I can tell.
你看这个？
See this?
这是光环。
It's a halo.
这是光环。
It's a halo.
这不是小圆帽。
It's not a yarmulke.
这是上帝赐给我的光环。
It's a halo that god gave me.
所以我永远是对的，错的总是她。
So I'm always innocent, and it's always her fault.
灾难发生的时候也是这样。
That's the way the disasters are too.
你注意到了吗？你看到她有在听吗？
And notice, did you see any listening there?
没有。
No.
一点都没在听。
Zero listening.
对吧？
Right?
一点都没有。
Zero.
没错。
That's right.
所以人们总是打断对方，还没听完对方说完，就急着反驳。
So people were talking over each other and immediately coming up with their rebuke before even hearing the last words of their sentence and the partner.
一上来就开始试图说服对方。
Right away, persuasion enters.
对。
Mhmm.
我一心只想让她明白，我是对的，她是错的。
I'm trying to persuade her that I'm right and she's wrong.
对。
Mhmm.
你懂吧？
You know?
可我连她到底在担心什么都没听清楚。
And I haven't even listened to what her concerns are.
对吧？
Right?
另一件事是音量
The other thing that happened is the volume
对。
Right.
越来越高，越来越高。
Started getting higher and higher and higher.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
因为你们俩都没在听，反而都在怪对方。
Because neither one of you were listening, and you're both blaming.
现在你们还互相插话。
And now you're trying to talk over one another.
然后你们俩就都这样了
And then you both went like
如果我生理上已经超负荷了
And if I'm if I'm physiologically flooded
对
Mhmm.
我就觉得只要把话说大声点，就能更有说服力
I think all I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive.
我超负荷的时候，就是这么想的
That's the way I reason when I'm flooded.
说了63遍之后，你有认真听过吗？
63 times later, have I listened?
没有
No.
那一个建设性的争论应该是怎样的
What does a positive argument
呢？
look like?
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好的。
Okay.
咱们来示范一下吧。
Let's let's role model that.
我们可以用同样的对话。
We can use the same talk.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
怎么了，亲爱的？
So what's going on, honey?
我觉得自己怎么都做不好。
Well, I'm I'm I'm kinda thinking that I can't do anything right.
你懂的吧。
You know?
我是真的试过了，努力收拾得整齐点，把东西都整理好，可不管你怎么做，你都觉得不够好。
I mean, I've tried I've tried, you know, being neater, more tidy, cleaning things up, and, you know, it's never good enough for you.
就是这种感觉。
It feels like that.
我怎么都让你不满意。
And, like like, I can't satisfy you.
我干脆就不想再努力了。
It's just like I I kinda give up.
你懂的吧。
You know?
我到底该怎么做，才能让你开心呢？
What am I supposed to do to make you happy?
天啊。
God.
这听起来确实是一种特别糟糕的感觉。
That sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你特别沮丧，因为无论你怎么做，都觉得达不到要求。
So you're really frustrated because there's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是我让你有这种感觉的吗？
Am I making you feel that way?
对。
Yeah.
天哪。
Oh, dear.
我到底做了什么，让你产生这种感觉？
What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way?
因为我不希望你有这种感觉。
Because I don't want you to feel that way.
我不想这样对你。
I don't wanna treat
你别这样对我。
you that way.
比如说，你让我去收拾厨房。
You know, like, for example, you asked me to clean up the kitchen.
你懂的。
You know?
我就去收拾了，可还是达不到你的要求。
So, like, I clean it up, you know, and it doesn't meet your standards.
我根本不知道你到底希望什么样。
So I don't even know what your standards are.
我的意思是
I mean
你想让我告诉你具体是哪些标准吗？
Do you want me to tell you what they are?
估计你也不想听。
Probably not.
嗯，不想。
Well, no.
但说清楚确实有帮助。
That would help.
真的吗？
Would it?
我倒是挺想知道的。
Would like to know.
是的。
Yeah.
天哪。
Oh god.
因为我觉得自己已经做得很好了。
Because I think I've done it just fine.
好吧。
Okay.
然后你就失望了。
And then you're disappointed.
我真的不明白。
I I just don't get it.
我明白了。
I see.
我跟你说吧。
Well, I tell you what.
对我来说，真正有帮助的是
What would make a huge difference for me
行。
Alright.
等等，之后。
Is after Wait.
让我记一下。
Let me let me write this down.
好的。
Okay.
拿出笔记本，这个主意真不错。
That's a great idea to get out your notebook.
是的。
Yeah.
等一下。
Hang on a minute.
好的。
Okay.
让我先喘口气。
Let me just breathe a little bit.
好的。
Okay.
所以我想说。
So I
我保证不会伤害你，好的。
promise I won't hurt your Okay.
洗完碗之后，对。
After after washing the dishes Yeah.
如果你能擦一擦台面，那就太好了。
It would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters.
把那些面包屑都扫到水槽里，然后冲下去就行。
You know, just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinse them down the sink.
我其实就指望台面干净一点。
That's really all I need just to have counters that are clean.
这对我来说真的特别重要。
That would make a huge difference for me.
好的。
Okay.
那样感觉会好多了。
It would feel great.
你知道吗，我真看不出来台面干不干净，因为上面有那种……各种颜色的纹路。
You know, I really can't tell when counter is clean or not because it's got you know, you got this pattern of, you know, un Colors.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
This is true.
所以我才选了带棕色的台面。
This is why I chose a counter with brown in it.
这样就能把那些污渍都遮住。
It would disguise all of the
你好好擦一遍就行了。
Just wipe it down really well.
擦一下就行。
Just wipe it.
对。
Yeah.
擦一下就行。
Just wipe it.
就这么简单。
That's all you have to do.
好。
Alright.
好。
Alright.
我我
I I
我能做得到。
can do that.
你你
Would you would you
介意做一下吗？
mind doing that?
不介意。
No.
我来做吧。
I'll do that.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Yay.
天哪。
My god.
我也爱你。
I love you too.
有道理。
Sense.
你真可爱。
I you are adorable.
我们没事。
We're okay.
你能解释一下刚才那场冲突是怎么发生的吗？
Can you explain what just happened in that conflict?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
很简单。
Easy.
事情一开始其实挺好的，就是约翰提到他对我们之前的互动感到不舒服。
So it started it started in a perfect way, which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad about an interaction of ours.
但你注意，他并没有说你是笨蛋，所以我才觉得难受。
But notice, he's not saying you're a schmuck, and that's why I feel bad.
他说的是，我觉得自己怎么做都不对。
He's saying, I feel like I can't do anything right.
那这里面有你吗？
So is you in there?
没有。
No.
他正在经历这种感受，Mel，这让我心里很揪。
He is having that feeling which pulls on my heart, Mel.
对。
Mhmm.
他向我敞开心扉，告诉我他的真实感受，而我一听，天哪。
He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like, and that feeling I'm translating into, oh god.
他感到很绝望。
He's feeling hopeless.
他感到绝望。
He's feeling despair.
我不希望他有这样的感受。
I don't want him to feel that way.
但关键在于。
But here's the kicker.
我想弄清楚是什么让他产生这种感觉。
I wanna understand what's making him feel that way.
所以我不会只是随便回一句，而是会问个问题，想真正理解他的心情。
So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment, I ask a question to try to understand.
再跟我说说。
Tell me more.
再跟我说说。
Tell me more.
这就像地底下冒出一股臭味，我想知道地底下到底有什么，是什么在制造出让他这么难受的东西。
Because, you know, it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth, I wanna know what's under the earth, you know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him.
所以我问他一个问题，这让我明白了他内心真正发生的事。
So I ask him a question, and that gives me information about, oh, that's what's happening inside.
这是我们可以改变的部分。
That's something that we can change.
这样就能找到解决办法。
It leads to a solution.
我很喜欢这个例子，我来告诉你为什么。
I love this example, and I'm gonna tell you why.
我和克里斯这些年一直反复吵同一个架。
I personally know that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight.
当我情绪爆发的时候，他就会躲起来；等他从壳里探出头来说话，说的总是‘你永远都不满意’。
And when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling, when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be nothing's ever good enough for you.
我觉得很多人吵架时都会这样互相吼，但说‘你永远都不满意’和说‘我都不知道该怎么办了，因为对你来说永远都不够好’，完全是两回事。
And I think that's a very common way that people then bark at each other, and it's very different to say, well, nothing's good enough for you.
我都不知道该怎么做了，因为对你来说永远都不够好。
I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you.
但你刚才教我们的不一样，不是指责你，而是说：不管我怎么做，都永远不够好。
Versus what you just taught us, which is instead of accusing it's you, I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough.
你说得对，克里斯一这么跟我说，我立刻觉得自己像个怪物，然后就想问：等等，到底哪里不够好？
And you're right, as soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster and then I wanna know, okay, well, what exactly?
对不起。
I'm sorry.
我明白为什么这个方法有效了。
And I can see why this works.
当然。
Sure.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
你知道吗，如果夫妻吵架是用第一种方式——互相吼‘你永远都不够好’，摔门、冷战，最后……
You know, if couples fight the first way, yelling at each other, it's never enough for you, fines, door slams, go into
你们的关系走到这一步，还有救吗？
your corners, is there hope?
当然有。
Sure.
毫无疑问。
Of course.
关键是这样。
You know, the thing is this.
在我们实验室里，我们观察过那些关系逐渐恶化的伴侣，记得吗？他们根本没有接受任何干预。
When in our lab, we saw couples who were going down the road of distress, remember, they weren't getting any intervention.
他们也没读过任何书。
They weren't reading anything.
也没听过像你这样精彩的播客。
They weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours.
更没有尝试去学习一种新的相处方式。
They weren't trying to learn a different manner of relating to one another.
所以如果没有干预，他们就会回到小时候从父母或照顾者那里学来的老一套做法，而那些方法根本不管用。
So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits on what they learned at the feet of their parents or caretakers, which didn't work.
你知道，高中里可没人教过你如何经营关系。
So, you know, nobody takes relationships one zero one in high school.
你得学会用新的方式彼此沟通。
You gotta learn different ways of talking to one another.
当有人跟你说，‘我们从不吵架’的时候，你怎么看？
When somebody says to you, oh, we never fight.
对。
Mhmm.
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
我觉得可能是些回避冲突的人，唉，这可不太妙。
I think there are probably conflict avoiders, and I think, oh, dear.
我们得帮这对伴侣把那些被压下去的分歧、让人烦心的问题给挖出来。
We've gotta help this couple surface, unearth the differences, the things that are irritating, annoying.
因为如果你把那些话憋在心里不说出来，时间一长，它们就会越积越多。
Because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while, they accumulate.
然后可能就会突然爆发，对吧。
And then you may end up with an eruption, right
是的。
Mhmm.
但这对谁都没好处。
Which doesn't help anybody.
有一件事我们在这项研究中发现了，那是加州大学洛杉矶分校斯隆中心对双职业且有幼儿的家庭做的研究。
One thing that can happen, we saw in this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children.
他们一整个晚上待在同一个房间的时间还不到百分之十。
And they spent less than 10% of an evening in the same room.
他们每周平均只交谈三十五分钟。
They talked to each other an average of thirty five minutes a week.
而且大部分时间聊的都是跑腿买东西这类事。
And mostly what they talked about was errands.
谁负责做什么？
Who's gonna do what?
什么时候做？
When?
结果他们过着完全平行的生活，根本忽略了彼此的关系。
So they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship.
他们忽视了友情、亲密、乐趣和冒险。
They ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure.
他们的生活只剩下一张永远做不完的清单，两人一起做，但除此之外再无其他交流。
They were just their lives had devolved into this infinite to do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had.
他们就这样过着平行的人生。
So they lived life in parallel.
你知道的，他去上班。
You know, he goes to work.
她也去上班。
She goes to work.
他们回到家。
They come home.
虽然和孩子在一起，但彼此根本不交流。
They're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other.
他们从不说：天啊，我们以前多开心，现在却一点乐趣都没有了。
They're not saying, god, we used to have so much fun, we don't have any anymore.
我们就这样慢慢变成了枯燥乏味的人。
We're just kind of becoming drudges.
他们彼此从不说这样的话。
They don't say that to one another.
他们只是维持着室友的关系。
They stay roommates.
他们只是维持着室友的关系。
They stay roommates.
他们回避一切冲突。
They avoid conflict.
他们都不愿说出口，自己有多孤单、多不快乐，多怀念过去那种全心投入关系的感觉。
They avoid saying how lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship.
如果听的人心里想：这说的就是我。
If the person listening is thinking, well, that's me.
我能想起我和克里斯婚姻中的某些阶段，我们现在三个孩子都二十多岁了，但当年他们还小的时候，我们就是这样。
Because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now all in their twenties, but when they were little, that was us.
你们当时就是这样。
That was you.
我们俩就像早晚擦肩而过的船，整天为谁没去买东西吵架，不管我做什么，都觉得不够。
We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.
是啊。
Yeah.
你们得在关系里主动创造一些联结的仪式，安排一些能确信对方会专心听你说话的时间。
You have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship, build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears.
我们每年都会安排一次专属的蜜月旅行。
And, you know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do.
过去二十七年，我们每年都去同一家民宿，还带着我们的皮划艇。
And for twenty seven years, we've gone to the same bed and breakfast and took took our kayak.
我们会花两周时间，互相问三个问题。
And we spend two weeks asking each other three questions.
去年有哪些让你觉得糟心的事？
What sucked about last year?
去年你最讨厌的是什么？
What did you hate about last year?
去年你最喜欢的是什么？
What did you love about last year?
你希望明年变成什么样？
And what do you want next year to be like?
所以我们有了这个习惯，知道一定能好好沟通。
So we we have that ritual where we know we can connect.
这既浪漫又有趣，我们划皮划艇，也去徒步。
And it's romantic, and it's fun, and we kayak, and, you know, we hike.
而且，你知道，这总是有种魔力。
And, you know, it's always magic.
不过我要指出的是，约翰说的这些，特别适合那些双职工、特别忙的夫妻。
Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two career couples Mhmm.
这些就是维系感情的仪式。
Are those rituals of connection.
但它们不一定要搞得很大阵仗，你知道的。
But they don't have to be great big, you know, broadcast.
它们可以很简单，比如早上一醒来，你们第一句话是怎么说的？
They can be something so simple, like, how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up?
晚上睡觉前，你们怎么道晚安，又是不是特别期待那一刻？
How do you say good night and you look forward to that?
周末睡到自然醒的时候，你们会做点什么？
What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in?
约会之夜呢？
How about a date night?
你知道吧，很多人都会说这些，但真有几个人会去做呢？
You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it?
其实我们有很多方式可以彼此联结，让人感觉对方就在我身边。
So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, they're right beside me.
哪怕他/她其实在一个不同的办公室，也依然有种就在眼前的踏实感。
They're right there, even though they're in a different office.
我很喜欢这个建议，因为我觉得，当你们真的处在那种状态时——就像研究说的，现在大多数夫妻可能都在工作，毕竟生活开销这么大，每天早出晚归，一周能凑出三十五分钟，你敢想吗？
I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is, and coming and going, and that only thirty five minutes a week, I mean, that's just Can you
真的很难想象。
imagine?
我也很欣赏那些小细节，比如，你能不能在每天早上刚醒的时候，做点什么特别的？
And I appreciate the small thing, like could you create something first thing in the morning?
能不能在晚上放松的时候，也安排点属于你们的仪式？
Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night?
我记得有一件事对我们改变特别大，我分享一下，也许对听的人有帮助。那时候 logistics 总是问题，也是我们吵架的根源，真正扭转局面的那个仪式，是我们每个周日晚上固定开个日程会议。
One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening, is since logistics was the reality and it was also the source of all of our conflict, The one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting.
这听起来可不像约会之夜，但成了我们每周固定做的事，帮我们保持步调一致，也把各种安排协调得井井有条。
And that doesn't exactly sound like a date night, but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics at one Beautiful.
你们真是一个团队。
You were a team.
是的。
Yes.
直到今天，我们还在坚持。
And to this day, we do it.
这太棒了。
That's great.
其实都是些很小的事。
And it's just the smallest of things.
我还得特别感谢克里斯，他做的一个小事对我特别重要——他会写小纸条，就像你那种笔记本里的纸条。
And the other thing that I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me is he puts little notes, just kinda like the notebook you have.
他撕下一页，写上‘我爱你’，然后我一打开眼镜盒就能看到。
He'll rip out a page and just put I love you, and I'll open up my eyeglass piece
大白天的，
in the middle of the day,
然后我就看到了，或者我打开钱包，那儿就贴着一张，我根本不知道他偷偷写了这个。
and there it is, or I'll open up my wallet, and there it is, And I had no idea that he had done that.
这就像一个小小的暗示，告诉我，即使我不在你身边，我的心依然和你在一起。
And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you even though I may not be standing next
在你身边。
to you.
研究一直表明，作为治疗师，你不能只盯着冲突来解决。
You know, a consistent research finding is that you cannot just focus on conflict as a therapist.
你必须同时经营友谊、亲密感、浪漫、激情、玩乐和乐趣。
You have to work on friendship and intimacy, romance, passion, play, and fun.
这些方面都要一起下功夫。
You have to work on all of that together.
光把冲突处理好是远远不够的。
It it's not enough to just make conflict better.
你真的得想办法让两个人的灵魂真正融合在一起，让这段关系充满喜悦。
You really have to bring, you know, the two souls together in a way that is it brings joy into the relationship.
我得提一下你那个见面仪式，作为维系感情的仪式，实在太棒了。
Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection.
我们还经常谈到每周一次的交流，通常安排在周日。
One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays.
我们管它叫‘状态汇报’。
We call it the state of the union.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们建议，首先从表达感恩开始。
And so, what we suggest is that, first, you begin with gratitude.
想想你的伴侣做过哪些事，是你还没来得及说谢谢的，然后真诚地告诉他，你有多感激他。
You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for, and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that.
我们常常会忽略伴侣的付出，尤其是在一起多年之后。
You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right, especially after years of being together.
不过，我们每个人都需要被看见。
So all of us, however, still need to be seen.
我们需要被认可。
We need to be appreciated.
对吧。
Right.
所以从这一点开始，真的很棒。
And so starting with that is lovely.
然后在中间部分，也许你有一些没说出口的抱怨，或者发生过一点不愉快的事，需要好好聊聊，把误会澄清，弄清楚当时哪里出了问题，下次该怎么处理。
And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process, clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time.
最后，再以一次感谢、一次感恩来结束这次谈话。
And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude.
说实话，没有什么比听到感恩更让人安心的了，这说明你被看见了。
I mean, there's there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that, look.
你被看见了。
You're visible.
你对我很重要。
You're important to me.
我看得见真实的你。
I see who you are.
我喜欢你做的事，我想让你知道，我看到了你，你真的很棒。
I love what you do, and I want you to know I recognize you, and it's you're beautiful.
结束会议时，一个很好的问题是：下周我怎么做才能让你感受到被爱？
And a great question to end the meeting with is, what can I do next week to make you feel loved?
这难道不是世界上最棒的问题吗？
Is that the best question in the world?
我
I
明白。
know.
你们真的太了不起了。
You guys are so incredible.
我不想休息，但得暂停一下，感谢我们杰出的赞助商。
I don't wanna take a break, but I have to hit the pause button so we can give our extraordinary sponsors a little love.
如果你正想着某个朋友、姐妹、兄弟，或者任何在家走路都小心翼翼、总在脑子里反复回放同一场争吵的人，就把这期节目转给他们。
And listen, if you're thinking of a friend, a sister, a brother, anyone who's walking on eggshells at home, or keeps replaying the same fight on a loop, you keep hearing it about it, send them this episode.
你能为别人做的最暖心的事之一，就是推荐他们像朱莉和约翰·戈特曼博士这样的资源。
One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource like Dr.
别走开，稍后节目中，戈特曼夫妇会一步步教你，如何在不引发大战的情况下，开口谈论那些你一直不敢提的事。
Julie and John Gottman, And don't go anywhere because a little later in the show, the Gottmans are gonna walk you step by step through how you can bring up something that you're afraid to talk about without it turning into a big fight.
这件事你绝对不能错过，继续听下去。
You do not wanna miss this, so stay with me.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
今天，你和我一起见到了朱莉博士。
And today, you and I are here with Dr.
朱莉和约翰·戈特曼博士。
Julie and Doctor.
约翰·戈特曼。
John Gottman.
他们是全球最顶尖的爱情与亲密关系维系研究专家。
They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work.
他们将教你我所有关键知识，告诉你哪些行为会毁掉关系，以及如何打破这些冲突模式。
And they're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships, and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict.
我对接下来的角色扮演环节特别期待。
I am so excited about the role playing.
那我们直接进入下一个环节吧。
So let's just jump right back into the next one.
我想重点聊聊关系中那些危险的冲突信号。
I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict.
关系里有四大‘末日四骑士’。
And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship.
那都是什么？
What are they?
明白了。
Okay.
第一个是批评。
So the first one is criticism.
批评就是把问题归咎于伴侣的性格缺陷。
Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner.
比如，你太自私了。
Like, you're so selfish.
你太懒了。
You're so lazy.
你太不顾及别人，太粗心，诸如此类。
You're so inconsiderate, thoughtless, whatever.
就是你看到伴侣身上那些让你觉得不好的特质。
So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner.
这就是批评。
That's criticism.
明白吗？
K?
接下来是轻蔑，这也是最糟糕的一种。
Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have.
轻蔑跟批评有点像，但你是带着高高在上的态度，居高临下地看待伴侣，还带着点不屑的神情。
Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority looking down your nose at your partner, and you're sneering a little bit.
你脸上可能露出厌恶的表情。
You've got a look of disgust maybe on your face.
这是一种鄙视。
There's scorn.
还带有嘲讽。
There's mockery.
有时候，讽刺就是轻蔑。
Sometimes sarcasm is contempt.
而蔑视不仅是预测关系破裂的最佳指标，正如约翰所说，我再稍作补充：在十五分钟的冲突中，听者感受到蔑视的次数，能预测他们在未来四年里会得多少次感染性疾病。
And contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for fifteen minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years.
没错。
Right.
因为它就像硫酸一样，严重削弱免疫系统。
Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system.
是的。
Yeah.
这可不是小事。
It's a big deal.
第三个破坏性因素是防御性。
The third horseman is defensiveness.
我们都喜欢找借口推脱。
We all love defensiveness.
除非一个人的自我像石头一样坚硬，否则谁都会变得防御。
Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock.
最近我都没见过什么石头。
I haven't met a rock lately.
所以防御性通常表现为反击，就像我们说的，或者抱怨。
So defensiveness gets manifested as either counterattack, as we described, or whining.
伊恩是个受害者。
Ian is a victim.
我明明也把厨房打扫干净了。
Oh, I did too clean the kitchen.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean?
好吧。
Okay.
我特别喜欢抱怨。
I love whining.
这感觉真不错。
It's it's great.
还有回避型反应，就是彻底关闭沟通。
And then there's stonewalling, and stonewalling is completely shutting down.
这不是短暂地停一下，想找个合适的说法那种。
But it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase.
而是整整几分钟、几分钟、几分钟，甚至可能长达几个小时都不说话。
It's shutting down completely for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time.
约翰和他同事鲍勃·莱文森通过生理研究发现，当一个人情绪过载时，身体其实进入了应激状态。
And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight.
他们坐在那儿的时候，心率常常超过每分钟一百下。
Their heart rates were often over a 100 beats a minute as they sat there.
于是他们就开始回避反应。
And they started stonewalling.
他们选择回避，是为了躲进自己内心，试图安抚自己，因为一直处在应激状态里实在太难受了，简直让人想吐。
And they started stonewalling in order to go inside and try and soothe themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful, makes you sick.
就像克里斯那种缩进壳里的样子。
So that turtle thing that Chris does.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yes.
你明白的。
You know?
他这才刚开始让自己平静下来。
And he's just starting to calm himself down.
但对跟他说话的人来说，看起来他根本不在乎。
But to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.
没错。
Correct.
你明白的。
You know?
他其实也特别没底。
And he's he's too in doubt.
你不能
You can't
主动联系他。
reach out.
我冲他喊是因为他根本不搭理我。
I'm yelling because he's, like, not responding.
没错。
That's right.
这只会让情况更糟。
And it makes it worse.
是的。
Yes.
我能看出来。
I can see that.
另外一点是，我和鲍勃在持续观察夫妻互动时，发现有一类夫妻根本不会出现那四种负面互动模式。
The other thing is that, Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen.
但当他们聊起一天的事情时，根本没有任何共鸣。
But when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection.
他们甚至刻意表现出对伴侣讲日常琐事毫无兴趣。
And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day.
所以问题并不是他们充满了负面情绪。
So it's not that they had all this negative stuff.
他们缺乏足够的正面互动，对彼此没什么兴趣，也没有共同的幽默感或温情。
They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another, not very much shared humor, affection.
这些伴侣平均在结婚十六年后离婚。
And those couples divorce an average of sixteen years after the wedding.
真没想到。
Wow.
他们撑得久一点，但说到底还是惨淡收场。
They last longer, but, you know, it's still disastrous.
我很想深入聊聊关系中的这四大毁灭性表现。
I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship.
你能给正在听的听众解释一下，什么叫情绪过载吗？
Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding?
如果有人从来没听过这个词，可能对‘冷战’还比较容易理解——就是你像乌龟一样缩起来，或者像我一样像火山一样爆发。但你能说说，情绪过载到底是什么意思？有哪些典型的表现？这样大家在了解这四个‘末日四骑士’的时候，能更容易对号入座，你明白我的意思吗？
So if somebody's never heard this term, and they're not quite, and I think it's kinda obvious if you're like the stonewalling, rather you shut down and you're like the turtle, or you're a volcano like me, but can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding, and what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense?
当然可以，当然可以。
Sure, sure.
首先呢，
So, first of all,
情绪过载跟性格类型没有关系。
there is no correlation between personality type and flooding.
任何人都可能经历情绪过载。
Anybody can get flooded.
任何人，
Anybody,
首先，
first of all.
那你说‘被淹没’的时候，具体是指什么？
And what does that mean when you use that term flooded?
明白了。
Okay.
意思是，你感觉像是面对一头剑齿虎，完全招架不住。
So what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber tooth tiger.
所以，
So
你听到的，像是有人在攻击你。
what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack.
其实可能根本不是攻击，但感觉上就是。
It may not be one, but it feels like one.
因为觉得是攻击，而且是危险的攻击，会触发你的战斗或逃跑反应。
And because it feels like an attack, right, and it's a dangerous attack, it's threatening, it sets off this fight or flight response.
所以那些容易被淹没的男性，表现出来就是这个样子。
And so men who experience this and get flooded are going to look like this.
他们允许自己撤退
They give themselves permission
把目光移开。
To to look away.
把目光移开。
To look away.
但女性通常不会这么做，原因在这里。
But a female doesn't typically, and here's why.
因为作为女性，我们从小就被教导要与他人建立联系，照顾他人，关心他人的情绪，对吧？
Because you know as women from, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right, to be sensitive to others' feelings.
所以我们不会允许自己中断眼神接触、把目光移开。
So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away.
因此，女性经历情绪过载时的表现完全不同。
So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different.
就是这样的。
It looks like this.
你就那么呆呆地盯着，人好像不在似的。
And you're just kind of staring Nobody's home.
人根本不在那儿。
No one's home.
脸上一点表情都没有。
Nobody's face.
没错。
That's right.
你可能在和对方对视，但其实人根本没在场。
You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home.
你已经把自己抽离了。
You've taken yourself out.
我刚意识到我女儿也是这样。
I just realized my daughter does that.
是啊。
Ah.
当我发现她变得特别紧张的时候
When I get, like, scary that she
像被车灯照住的鹿一样
A deer in the headlights.
不知道该怎么办
Doesn't know what to do.
没错
That's right.
这真的很有帮助，你说得对
That was very helpful, because you're right.
我知道，这都是基于你的研究，对很多男性来说，是双臂交叉的动作
And I know that this is all based on your research that for a lot of men, it's the crossed arms,
对
Mhmm.
还有躲开视线
It's the looking away.
还有就是直接走出房间。
It's the walking out of the room.
对。
Yeah.
或者一边走一边去倒饮料，跟在后面冲他们喊。
Or going to make a drink as you're walking, like, following them, yelling at them.
是的。
Mhmm.
没错。
Yes.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且这种感觉会让你身体特别不舒服。
And it and it feels kind of awful in your body.
你懂的。
You know?
这简直就像一场恐慌发作。
It's it's almost like having a panic attack.
呼吸变得又浅又快，根本感觉不到任何出路。
The breathing is more shallow and more rapid, and it really feels like there's no way to win here.
你懂的。
You know?
说白了，你就是想赶紧逃开。
I mean, you you just have to escape.
是的。
Yes.
我能理解。
I can see that.
没错。
Yeah.
你是在逃离自己的身体，或者逃离这个房间。
And you're escaping your body or the room.
没错。
That's right.
这真是太有帮助了。
That was super helpful.
我们来逐个分析这四大杀手，先从批评说起。
Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism.
好的。
Okay.
研究里是怎么定义批评的？
How is criticism defined in the research?
我还想请你演一个例子，教我们当身处其中时，该怎么摆脱它。
And I'd love to have you role play a example and teach us how we can shift out of it when we're in the middle of
它。
it.
我想提一下，你刚才提到的这种调整方式非常敏锐，这正是我们所说的修复。
Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair.
好的。
Okay.
在对话中及时修复关系，是避开这四大杀手、让交流更顺畅的好方法。
So making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得它的定义是，把问题归咎于伴侣的性格缺陷。
So, again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner.
就是这样。
That's what it is.
那我先来。
So let me start.
好的。
Okay.
你讲吧。
Go ahead.
我早就想跟你聊聊了，我觉得我有些东西可以教你。
I've been meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you.
你懂的吧。
You know?
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean?
其实呢，我注意到你一看到家里乱糟糟的就容易烦，但我就不在意这些。
Well, no, I noticed that, you know, you kinda get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray, and I don't have that problem.
你懂的吧。
You know?
我不管周围多乱，都能专心做事。
I can concentrate really well, you know, whatever's going on around me.
对。
Mhmm.
所以我可以教你如何更集中注意力，我觉得你的思维有点松散。
So I can kinda teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of weak.
你明白吗？
You know?
我觉得你的思维不够
I think your your mind is not
你认为很强。
You think strong.
思维太弱了。
Mind is weak.
我觉得你思维不够坚定，我可以帮帮你，亲爱的。
I think you have a weak mind, and I can help you Honey.
让你的思维更强，成绩比以前更好。
Strengthen your mind better grades than you did.
什么？
What?
我脑子不弱。
I don't have a weak mind.
你在说什么呢？
What are you talking about?
我只是想帮帮你而已。
Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you.
我是想帮你把脑子练得跟我一样强。
I you know, I'm trying I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind so it's more like my mind.
我跟你说啊。
I tell you what.
你去帮那只狗吧。
Go help the dog.
行吗？
Okay?
别找我。
Not me.
好吧。
Okay.
所以这就是批评。
So that's criticism.
行了。
Alright.
明白了。
Got it.
咱们来展示一下
Let's show
每种情况的解法，
the antidote for each,
当然。
of course.
是的。
Yeah.
那该怎么
So how
操作呢？
do I do that?
我会做个修复。
We're gonna so I'll make a repair.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Okay.
行吗？
Okay?
你为什么不接一下？
So why don't you pick up?
是的。
Yeah.
就像我之前说的，我真的能帮你更好地集中注意力，让你更像我。
You know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be more much more like me.
你明白吗？
You
明白。
know?
亲爱的，是的。
Honey Yeah.
我得说，我现在真的感觉有点被冒犯。
I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now.
是吗？
You are?
我不想这么敏感，但就是有这种感觉。
I don't wanna be defensive, but I feel that way.
你描述我的方式，让我觉得是在贬低我。
The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put down.
哦。
Oh.
你能换种方式说说你想表达的意思吗？
Can you say what you wanna say in different words?
嗯，好吧。
Well, okay.
我觉得，就算周围堆满了书和纸张，你也能坦然接受，那就好了。
I think it'd be great if even when there were a lot of books around and papers around that you were okay with that.
你不会因此生气。
You didn't get upset.
哎哟。
Whew.
这要求可真高。
Tall order.
是的。
Yeah.
这样吧，我跟你说。
Well, I tell you what.
我明白你的意思，也知道我有时候可能确实有点啰嗦。
I I hear you, and I know that I probably come across as a nag sometimes.
是的。
Yeah.
我肯定有这毛病。
I'm sure I do.
我倒觉得是这样。
I would say that.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我
I
你肯定会这么说。
bet you would.
但你知道，我觉得自己能适应周围东西乱放的状态。
But, you know, I think I can spend some of the time feeling comfortable with everything scattered around.
不过，我想你足够了解我，明白当我觉得环境一团乱时，你可能并不觉得有什么问题。
However, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic just to me, it may not be to you,
但对我来说确实如此。
but it is
那时候我内心就会完全乱套。
to me, then I get all discombobulated inside.
我感觉自己特别没条理。
I feel really disorganized.
所以那些文件啊、杂物啊，都让我更添这种感觉。
And so all the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately, to my having that feeling.
我真希望自己不是这样，可我就是如此。
I wish I wasn't like that, but I am.
我觉得家里有点乱才更舒服。
Because I I I think that a house ought to be a little bit messy to be comfortable.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你这么想。
I know you do.
我妈妈以前打扫卫生，简直要把地板擦掉一层皮。
My mom used to clean clean the place to with an inch of its life.
你懂的。
You know?
我特别喜欢你妈妈。
I love your mom.
她还在所有家具上都套上了塑料套。
And she put plastic on all the furniture.
她真是有点极端。
She was crazy.
确实如此。
That's true.
我记得。
I remember.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
好。
Okay.
你没必要坐在塑料套上。
Well, you don't have to sit on plastic.
明白吗？
Okay?
没关系。
It's okay.
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