操控专家：4个隐藏迹象表明你正在与有毒的人打交道

好的。

Okay.

这个嘛，我们有象棋棋子。

So this one, we got the chess pieces.

对吧？

Right?

他把你从棋盘上掀下去。

So he's knocking you off the board.

没错。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

你挡路了，他就把你掀下棋盘。

So you're in the way, knocking you off the board.

我觉得，这其实展现了一种非常精于算计的社交方式。

I think, you know, what this depicts is essentially this very strategic social style.

就像我们之前说的，精神病态往往带有冲动的特质。

So like where we talked about psychopathy having that kind of impulsive nature.

对吧？

Right?

但这种不一样。

This is different.

他们是那种愿意仔细规划的人。

This is like they're willing to like kinda plan things out.

他们会想，哦，梅尔跟我讲了点尴尬的事。

They're like, oh, Mel told me something kind of embarrassing.

我先记在心里，等以后需要拿捏她的时候，再拿出来用。

I'm gonna like put that in my back pocket and I'll bring that back up later whenever I kind of need to turn the screws on her or something like that.

这种人是不是就是那种，我们都遇到过，感觉对方只在需要你的时候才出现？

Is this the kind of person where I think we've all had that experience where you have this sense that somebody is turning it on and showing up when they need something.

对。

Mhmm.

一旦他们得到了需要的东西，把你用完了，你就被扔一边了。

And the second that they have gotten what they needed and used you for a particular purpose, you're Yeah.

没错。

Absolutely.

我认识一些人，在工作中就经常这样，特别有策略性，悄悄把别人排挤出去，往上巴结上司，只为达到自己的目的。

You know, I spoke to some people who, especially at work, would see this kind of behavior, very strategic, pushing people out very subtly, managing up to the boss to try to get what they want.

这些人通常对自己的现状很不满，总想着要往上爬，争取更好的位置。

And these people tend to be very unsatisfied with their current position and, like, always gunning for something better.

是的。

Yeah.

这种行为在家庭里会是什么样子？

What does this look like in a family?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我们通常只在工作场合想到这种情况。

You know, usually we think about it at work.

是的。

Mhmm.

但在家庭里，说到底还是那种对权力和控制他人的渴望，很可能还故意挑拨亲戚之间的关系，比如表兄弟、叔叔们之类的。

But in a family, you know, again, it would be just that desire for power, control over other people, and probably very willing to create these divisions maybe between the cousins and the uncles and the whatever.

制造分裂，好让自己占上风。

Create divisions so that they come out on top.

所以，情况其实差不多。

So, yeah, it would be very similar.

对吧？

Right?

我们不管到哪儿，性格都会跟着一起走。

And so, like, we take our personalities with us wherever we go.

没错。

Right.

同样的手段，只是换了个场景罢了。

So same kinds of strategies, but just playing out in a different context.

你怎么在职场上识别出那种马基雅维利主义的人格特质？

How do you spot a Machiavellian personality style at work?

比如说，有哪些行为模式是你需要特别留意的？

Like, what are some of the behavior patterns that you should just pay attention to?

这其实很有帮助，对。

What's really going to be helpful here Yeah.

就是多跟其他人聊聊。

Is talking to other people.

关于那个人？

About that person?

是的。

Uh-huh.

为什么？

Why?

好的。

Okay.

我的博士后导师，德克纳教授。

So my dear postdoc advisor, doctor Decker Keltner.

对。

Yes.

他上过这个播客。

Who's been on this podcast.

我们特别喜欢他。

We love him.

关于敬畏感的科学研究。

The science of awe.

他太棒了。

He's amazing.

他做过一项关于姐妹会里闲言碎语的研究。

He did this study on gossip in a sorority.

他让每个人填写了一份关于马基雅维利主义特质的问卷。

And essentially, he asked everyone to fill out a measure of their Machiavellian traits.

然后他还问了那些女孩，私下里大家都在议论谁。

And then he also asked the girls who gets talked about, like, in private conversations.

对吧？

Right?

谁人缘好？

Who's well liked?

谁有地位？

Who has status?

谁受人尊敬？

And who is respected?

他发现，被议论最多的人，往往不是人缘好的，而是知名度高的。

And what he found is that the people who were gossiped about the most were people who were not well liked, but they were well known.

他们不受欢迎，是因为太工于心计，别人觉得他们得到的地位名不副实。

And they weren't well liked because they were highly Machiavellian, and people perceived them as having status that they didn't really deserve.

哦。

Oh.

所以这种情况里，别把所有流言都当真，可能会更有帮助。

And so this is a situation in which it can be really helpful to maybe not take all rumors as face value.

对吧？

Right?

但你得留心，因为这些人特别渴望权力，经常踩着别人往上爬，大家自然会议论他们。

But, like, you know, pay attention because people are going to be talking about these individuals because they're so power hungry and because they are often, like, stepping over other people to get to where they wanna be.

他们得到的职位、老板的关注、头衔，看着都不太公平，因为我们都知道，他们背后要么是耍手段，要么根本没资格。

It doesn't seem fair that they have the job they have or they have the attention of the boss or they have the title that they have because behind the scenes, we all know they either manipulated their way there or they didn't earn it.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实说得通。

Well, that makes a lot of sense.

这种情形在家庭里也能看到。

That makes a lot you could you could see that playing out in a family

对。

Yeah.

就是那种被宠幸的人，还总爱惹是生非，把整个房间的气氛都拖垮。

Where you have somebody that becomes the favorite and who is also always stirring up drama and always sucking the energy out of the room.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实不公平。

And it doesn't seem fair.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

而且你很难看出来，因为他们用的都是有策略的操控手段。

And it can be hard to see, you know, because they use manipulation and they use it quite strategically.

刚开始的时候，真的很难识破。

Like, it can be hard to see through at the start.

我觉得这些性格特质最难的地方就在于，操控本身就是它们的核心。

I think that's what's hard about all of these personality traits is that they've got manipulation at the core of them.

对吧？

Right?

你怎么定义操纵？

How do you define manipulation?

操纵就是愿意利用别人来达到自己的目的。

Manipulation is just the the willingness to, use other people to your own ends.

所以，你其实就像是在幕后操控别人，通过撒谎或者半真半假的话来改变他们的看法。

And so you are, you know, you're essentially, like, pulling the strings on other people, changing their perspective perhaps by telling lies or half truths.

对。

Yeah.

所以听起来像是，我本来想说，我们是不是都在利用别人？

So it sounds like because I was about to say, aren't we all like using other people?

但你刚才说的这点非常重要。

But what you just said, though, is very important.

你基本上是说，你愿意不惜一切代价

You basically said you're do you're willing to do whatever it takes

是的。

Mhmm.

利用别人。

To use people.

对。

Mhmm.

比如说，某种程度上，我们都希望朋友能有所回报。

Like, I suppose on some level, we all hope that our friends reciprocate.

我们都希望，只要自己够体贴、够善良，就能得到同样的对待，但这不算操纵，因为我并没有骗你。

We all hope that by being loving and kind, you're gonna get it back, but that's not a form of manipulation because I'm not deceiving you in some ways.

这样理解对吗？

Is that a fair way to think about it?

我常常觉得，这可能得等我们聊完这四个性格特质后再谈，但我现在有个困扰想说。

I often struggle with the fact that, you know, this is kind of probably a conversation for after we finish these four personality traits, but here's something I struggle with.

我知道很多人都压力很大，忙得不可开交。

Like, I know people are wildly stressed out and overwhelmed.

是的。

Yeah.

世界上有太多事情在发生，你永远不知道别人正在经历什么。

And there's a lot going on with the state of the world, and you never know what somebody is dealing with.

我也意识到，你通常面对的并不是眼前这个人本身。

And I also recognize that you typically are not dealing with the actual person in front of you.

你面对的是他们的童年创伤、情绪状态、有没有吃饭、对情绪的承受能力，等等乱七八糟的东西。

You're dealing with their childhood issues and their emotional state, whether or not they've eaten anything and their tolerance for emotions and blah, blah, blah.

所以我常常会从一个安全的距离，尽量给他人留点余地。

But, and so I often try to give people the benefit of the doubt from a very safe distance.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们正处在一个特殊的时代，人们在公共场合、在网络上、在家庭里的行为都变得越来越失控。

But we are living in a moment of time where the behavior of people in public, the behavior of people online, the acting out in families.

对。

Mhmm.

好像有毒的行为一下子多了起来。

It just seems like toxic behavior has skyrocketed.

所以我一直在想，怎么分辨一个人是真的在操控你，还是只是碰巧状态特别差。

And so I am just trying to dissertation when you know that somebody's truly being manipulative versus somebody is having a super bad week.

是的。

Yeah.

或者他们因为一些你不知道的状况，情绪已经彻底崩溃了。

Or they're just really at a point because of this stuff going on that you don't know about that they're emotionally flooded.

对。

Mhmm.

他们本意不是这样的，但就是控制不住自己，到处发泄。

And they didn't intend to be this way, but they're walking all over.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

完全懂。

Totally.

所以你可能一直都很冷漠、爱操纵人。

So you could be consistently callous and manipulative.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yep.

因此，你可能在这些黑暗特质上得分很高。

And therefore, you probably have high levels of these dark traits.

但这并不意味着我们其他人就永远不会变得冷漠和操纵他人。

But that doesn't mean that the rest of us are never callous and manipulative.

对吧？

Right?

而且往往有些情况更容易诱发这种行为。

And there's often situations that are more likely to bring that behavior out.

确实。

Mhmm.

所以你说得对，现在这个世界确实在不断强化那些容易让人表现出这类行为的情境因素。

So and you're right that the world right now seems like it is pushing on a lot of those situational factors that increase the likelihood that we'll behave in these kinds of ways.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

说实话，我们每个人大概都曾有过不是最好状态的时候。

I mean, we can probably all think of a time when we were not our best selves.

对吧？

Right?

不过我对此感到很愧疚。

And I feel bad about that, though.

是的。

Yeah.

我也为这件事向你道歉。

And I apologize for it.

没错。

Exactly.

然后我就一直责怪自己。

I then beat myself up over it.

你刚才说的，我开始有点明白了，滕林克博士，意思是拥有黑暗人格特质的人其实并不会这样。

And what you're saying, I I'm starting to dissertain, doctor Ten Brinke, is that a person with dark personality traits actually does not.

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

我的意思是，精神病态的核心特征就是缺乏内疚和悔意。

I mean, psychopathy, a lack of guilt and remorse is, like, core to what that personality is.

那种人也会记仇吗？

Is that the kind of person that also holds grudges?

会。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

当然了。

Absolutely.

我显然在想我认识的一个人。

Obviously, I'm thinking of somebody that I know.

医生。

Doctor.

滕布林克医生，被人操控的首要迹象是什么？

Ten Brinke, what's the number one sign you're being manipulated?

如果这个人想从你这里得到什么，比如你的时间、金钱或者影响力，而他在你面前表现得跟对别人完全不一样，那这就是一个明显的警告信号，说明你没看到真实的他。

So if this person wants something from you, you know, maybe it's your time, your money, your influence, and if they seem to be a different person around you than everyone else, I think that's a big red flag that you're not seeing who they are.

比如在恋爱初期，我们常听说‘爱的轰炸’。

So, you know, early in romantic relationships, we'll hear about, you know, love bombing.

这个人看起来简直是完美的伴侣。

And, you know, this person seemed like the perfect partner.

他总是给我发消息。

They they were always texting me.

他们给你送花。

They sent flowers.

他们想要的，和你在这段关系里想要的一模一样。

They want the same things that I want out of this relationship.

一切看着都挺好，就你们俩，但你注意看他们怎么对待网约车司机、咖啡师、餐厅的迎宾员——尤其是以为你没注意的时候。

All seems great, just the two of us, but, like, look at how they treat the Uber driver, the barista, the, like, hostess at the restaurant, especially when they don't think you're looking.

如果你发现他们对不是你的人总是这样冷酷对待，那这种模式迟早也会冲着你来。

And if you start to see that, like, consistent kind of cruel treatment of people that are not you, I think that pattern is going to come for you eventually.

因为整体的行为模式本身就有问题。

Because the broader pattern is bad.

这是一种阴暗人格的典型表现。

It's a dark personality kind of pattern.

迟早有一天，你不会再是那个例外。

Eventually, you're not gonna be the exception anymore.

你会变成常态的一部分。

You're gonna become part of the rule.

我觉得，当你自己就是那个异类的时候，看到这种偏差，确实是个问题。

And I think, yeah, seeing that kind of deviation when you are you are the deviation, that I think is a is a problem.

我们来聊聊自恋吧。

Let's talk about narcissism.

那么，判断一个人是否具有自恋型黑暗人格，最明显的迹象是什么？

So what is the clearest sign that you're dealing with somebody that has the dark personality of narcissism?

好。

K.

我再给你一个画面。

Got another visual.

自恋。

Narcissism.

好吧。

Alright.

你看这个人正对着一面破碎的镜子，镜子里的裂痕，正好反映出他表面下的真实样子。

So here we've got someone looking into a broken mirror, and you see kind of like the cracks in the facade here.

我觉得这其实说明了一点：眼见未必为实。

And I think essentially what this is kind of pointing out is that what you see is not really what you get.

这实际上让我想到一种脆弱型自恋，他们的自我非常容易被击碎。

Actually, this signifies to me kind of like a vulnerable type of narcissism where their ego is actually really easily shattered.

自恋型的另一种表现正好相反，他们的自我即便收到明显负面反馈，也绝不允许被削弱。

Grandiose narcissism is kind of the opposite of that where their ego, like, cannot be deflated even though they're getting kind of feedback that it should be.

但无论是哪一种自恋，核心都是一种特权感，以及为了获得自己认为应得的东西——比别人更多的东西——而利用他人。

But at the core of both of those kinds of narcissism is entitlement and exploitation of other people in order to get that, what they think they deserve, which is more than most other people.

如果能早点识别出这些迹象，其实很有帮助，因为这些特质在初期看起来特别有吸引力，但恰恰就是这些特质，后来会引发各种问题。

And I think it's really helpful to try to identify those things early if you can because those traits look really attractive early on, and they are the exact same traits that lead to problems a little bit later.

有一项研究我特别喜欢，是UBC的德洛伊·帕尔豪斯做的。

So there's this one study that I love, Delroy Pahlhaus at UBC.

他研究了一群学生，观察他们在一整个学期里如何合作。

He did this study of, groups of students, and they were working together over the course of a term.

对吧？

Right?

第一周，他们全都聚到一起，组成了新团队，彼此留下了最初的印象。

And week one, they all, you know, got together in their new groups, and they made these little, like, first impressions of people.

结果发现，那些最自恋的人，一开始被大家觉得特别随和、适应力强，而且能力出众。

And it turns out that the people who were the most narcissistic in those groups were originally seen as, like, really agreeable, really well adjusted, and very competent.

真的吗？

Really?

第一印象居然是这样？

That was the first impression?

是的。

Yeah.

随和吗？

And it Agreeable?

对。

Mhmm.

到了第七周，他又让他们重新做了一遍同样的评价。

And then week seven, he asked them to do those same ratings again.

这些人在后期被看成是傲慢自大的吹牛者，实际上非常敌对，而且严重高估了自己的能力。

Those same people were seen as arrogant braggarts who were actually really hostile and who overestimated their abilities.

对吧？

Right?

所以一开始他们给人的感觉挺光鲜的，但很快就会褪色，因为你慢慢发现，他们展示出来的形象根本不是真实的自己。

So it's kind of like there's this sheen at the start, and it quickly wears off when you start to realize, like, the person they are putting forward is not the person they actually are.

所以人们往往会有很强的自我美化倾向。

So there tends to be a lot of self enhancement.

一些早期的迹象包括：特别自信，说话和肢体语言都显得非常有底气，举止也很有范儿。

Some early cues might be having lots of confidence, coming across very confident in your kind of verbal and nonverbal presentation, the way you carry yourself.

他们通常很在意自己的外表，穿着打扮往往很有品位，花很多心思在形象上。

They tend to be very concerned about their physical appearance, so putting they tend to be quite stylish and, like, put a lot of effort into their appearance.

所以要分清哪些是真实的他，哪些是他想让你看到的，真的很难。

And so it can be really hard to kind of pull apart what is the real person and what is the impression that they're trying to make.

有时候，只有时间才能揭开真相。

And sometimes it's like time that is going to reveal that.

你知道，你提到过自恋型人格大致分为两类，一类是显性自恋，我想我们大家脑海里都能想到一个代表人物，无论是在家人、同事，还是美国公众人物中，但还有一类是隐性自恋。

You know, you said that there were kind of the two camps of the narcissistic personalities, one being grandiose, which I think we all have somebody in mind you can think of that represents that, whether it's in your family or at work or in public here in The United States, but vulnerable.

对。

Yeah.

因为我觉得隐性自恋更隐蔽，你往往意识不到自己面对的就是这种人。

Because I think these can be sneakier, and you don't realize that's what you're dealing with.

所以你能稍微讲讲隐性自恋型人格是怎么表现的吗？

And so can you talk a little bit about how the vulnerable narcissistic personality shows up?

比如，我们到底在找什么？

Like, what are we looking for?

因为我觉得这一条特别隐蔽。

Because I think this one's really sneaky.

对。

Yeah.

所以，关于脆弱型自恋，那种特权感和愿意利用他人的心态依然存在，就跟夸大型自恋一样。

So with respect to vulnerable narcissism, like, the the entitlement and the willingness to exploit other people is still involved, just like for grandiose.

是的

Yep.

自恋型人格

Narcissism.

但他们自我 esteem 非常脆弱。

But they tend to have a real fragility to their ego.

他们其实一直在寻求你的认可，来填补内心那种空洞。

Like, they're they're almost looking for, you know, your admiration to prop up something that's, like, not there.

对吧？

Right?

而且他们通常很防御，还容易回避。

And they tend to be very defensive and somewhat avoidant.

了解是什么触发了这两种不同类型的自恋者，其实特别有启发。

And I think learning a little bit about what triggers these two different kind of types of narcissists is actually pretty revealing.

典型的自恋型人格一旦遇到失败就会暴怒，因为他们觉得自己必须完美无缺，一旦没得到那份工作，立马就炸了。

So the grandiose type tends to get very angry when there's like a failure because they they are supposed to be incredible and amazing, and they're gonna be pissed whenever, you know, they don't get that job.

他们没得到晋升。

They don't get the promotion.

他们没拿到预期的加薪。

They don't get, you know, the raise at work.

而对脆弱型自恋者来说，因为他们依赖别人的认可来维持自我价值，所以被拒绝才会真正伤害他们。

Whereas for a vulnerable narcissist, because they're kind of getting that ego boost from other people, it's rejection that really upsets them.

比如，被分手了，或者有人对他们态度冷淡，他们往往会对此反应特别强烈。

And so if, you know, they get broken up with or, you know, someone just doesn't treat them very nicely, you know, they tend to really react strongly to that kind of thing.

这种表现，在家庭里会是什么样子？尤其是脆弱型自恋者？

How can this, show up in a family, especially in the vulnerable narcissist?

就是那种你周末回不去，他就立刻大发雷霆的人？

Like, this the person that flies off the handle because you can't make it home this weekend?

是不是那种你没做到他们期待的事，就不断让你内疚的人？

Is this the person that's just constantly giving you the guilt trip if you're not doing everything you wanted them to do because meeting expectations?

你没做到，对他们来说，就是被拒绝了。

If you don't do it, it's the rejection piece.

对。

Right.

比如说，这在家庭里会怎么表现呢？

Like, how does this show up in a family?

是的。

Yeah.

他们身上还是会表现出同样的特点。

So, I mean, they're gonna have those same traits.

对吧？

Right?

比如那种特权感，总觉得家人就得满足他们的要求。

So the entitlement, whatever they want the family to do

我为你们付出了这么多，你们居然……

After everything I've done for Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

特别擅长操控别人。

Very willing to manipulate people.

会用内疚感之类的手段，来逼你按他们的意思做事。

So using guilt trip, whatever it would be that would, like, work to kind of push you around.

对。

Mhmm.

除此之外，还会有排斥的行为。

And in addition to that, it's like rejection.

比如你没去参加生日派对，没出席退休聚会，或者圣诞节不回家，这些都会让有脆弱型自恋的人大受刺激；但那种自大型自恋的人，根本不在乎，当是灰尘掸掉就完了。

So, yeah, if you don't come to the birthday party, if you don't make it to the retirement party or whatever, you don't come home for Christmas, that is going to really, you know, set someone with vulnerable narcissism off, whereas someone who's more grandiose narcissism, like, it's kinda dirt off their shoulder.

对吧？

Right?

他们就是他们自己。

So, like, they're they're them.

他们自视很高。

They're big.

随便吧。

Whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

这太有意思了。

That's so interesting.

医生滕布林克，请您先记住这一点，我们马上插播一小段广告，让我们的赞助商说几句话。

And I want you to hold that thought, doctor Tenbrinke, because we're gonna take a quick break so our, sponsors can have a moment to share a few words.

请别走开。

And don't go anywhere.

我们马上回来。

We're gonna be right back.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。

It's your friend Mel Robbins.

今天，你和我在这里，和这位医生一起。

Today, you and I are here with Doctor.

莉安·滕·布林克。

Leanne ten Brinke.

我们今天要聊的是阴暗人格，以及如何在现实生活中识别他们，还有该如何保护自己——该做什么，不该做什么。

We're talking about dark personalities and how to spot them in real life and exactly what to do and not do to protect yourself.

好的，医生。

All right, Doctor.

滕·布林克医生，我们直接继续吧。

Ten Brinke, let's just jump right back in.

接下来我想问你一个问题。

Here's the next thing I wanted to ask you.

那第四个黑暗人格，也就是施虐狂，是怎么回事？

What about the fourth dark personality, which is sadism?

什么是施虐狂？

What is sadism?

施虐狂就是对残忍有一种本能的渴望。

Sadism is essentially having an appetite for cruelty.

哦。

Oh.

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yeah.

啊，我不是说哦，真的吗？

Oh, I don't oh, really?

是的

Yeah.

核心就是从他人的痛苦中获得乐趣。

So it's centered around finding enjoyment in the pain of others.

乐趣？

Enjoyment?

对

Mhmm.

哦

Oh.

天哪

Like, oh god.

太可怕了

That's awful.

是的

Yeah.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

所以我们这里看到的是

So we've got a depiction

这个场景的描绘。

of this one too.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

哦。

Oh.

施虐倾向。

Sadism.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这里，有个人正在掌控局面。

So here, we've got someone who is, you know, taking some control over the situation.

我可能真的会加点小刀之类的东西。

I might actually, like, add, like, little knives or something.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

如果你在听的话，现在博士·滕·布林克手里拿的就是这个画面。

So this is a visual that doctor ten Brinke is holding if you're listening.

上面是个大人物，下面是个小人物，几乎像提线木偶一样被操控，但你说的是，他们从伤害别人中获得乐趣。

There's a person that's big above and then a little person that's almost, like, on puppet strings being manipulated, but you're saying they take pleasure in hurting other people.

所以如果你要加点什么，就是直接往那个末端的人身上捅一刀——天啊，这也太可怕了。

And so if you were to add anything, you would literally stab the person that's at the end of the oh my that's terrible.

他们从痛苦中得到快感。

They get enjoyment out of pain.

你反应这么强烈，其实挺有意思的，因为确实存在这种极端版本。

And what's so interesting about your reaction is like, yeah, there are those, like, very extreme versions of this.

我上大学的时候，曾经在编码一些性谋杀案的描述，专门标记其中是否存在无意义的暴力和施虐型暴力。

Like, when I was an undergrad, I was coding these descriptions of sexual homicides, and I was coding them for evidence of gratuitous violence and sadistic violence.

这些当然是极端到极点的例子。

And those are obviously these, like, very extreme examples.

对吧？

Right?

但生活中还有很多更常见的表现。

But there's more, like, everyday versions.

比如，有人特别喜欢看激烈的体育比赛，或者刷Instagram时看到小孩被足球打到的视频，居然觉得很好笑。

So things like enjoying really violent sports, maybe, you know, enjoying you know, you're scrolling through Instagram or something and you see a video of a kid getting hit with a soccer ball and you find that funny.

这种就叫日常型的施虐倾向。

Like, kind of everyday sadism is what it's called.

我们通常会觉得这种人是怪物。

And I think we think of these people as like, you know, monsters.

对吧？

Right?

但仔细想想，我们每个人可能都经历过类似的感觉。

But we can probably all think of a time when we felt something sort of adjacent.

我来跟你讲个情景试试。

So let me try this on you.

想象一下，你正在想一个特别有权势的人，比如你讨厌的某个政客或公司CEO，他正走上台准备演讲，结果绊了一跤，摔倒了——你这时候会怎么反应？

So imagine that you are thinking about someone really powerful, maybe a politician, a CEO of some company that you dislike, and they are walking across the stage to give a speech, and they trip and they fall?

你会有什么感觉？

Like, how do you react?

说实话，我可能第一反应就是：活该。

You know, I guess I might be like, you deserve that.

对吧。

Yeah.

你脸上说不定会不自觉地露出一丝微笑。

There might be like a little a little smirk might come on your face just

你知道我该怎么形容这种感觉吗？

for And a you know what I would call it?

这就是报应。

Karma.

她只是针对你，因为你根本不配那个头衔。

She just came for you because you didn't deserve that, you know, title.

所以我明白你说的了，这简直就是一种微小的施虐倾向。

And so I can see what you mean by like, that's an Just example big of like micro sadism.

德语里有个特别贴切的词来形容这种感觉。

So this is, the Germans have a great word for this.

叫‘Schadenfreude’，就是看到别人倒霉时心里暗自高兴。

It's schadenfreude, and it is taking joy in the misfortune of someone else.

我们常常在那些身居高位的人跌倒或出丑时，产生这种感觉。

And often we experience this when someone who's in, like, a position of power and they fall or falter or something like that.

所以这确实算是一种日常生活中常见的施虐心理。

And so that's, yeah, kind of like an everyday sadism kind of experience.

让我来仔细分析一下这个说法——

Well, let me tease that out a

一点点

little

因为当你说微型的、日常形式的施虐欲是观看非常暴力的体育比赛时，我真的很感兴趣。

because bit I was very intrigued when you said a micro everyday form of sadism is watching very violent sports.

或者甚至观看极其暴力的恐怖电影。

Or maybe even watching extremely violent horror movies.

对。

Yeah.

并且真的把这当作一种你喜欢的娱乐形式来看待。

And really seeing that as a form of entertainment that you like.

当我想到那些你不喜欢的人摔倒时，我心里会觉得这是一种正义。

And when I think about the example of somebody that you don't like tripping and you taking a small amount of like, there's a part of me that feels like it's justice.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I'm saying?

对于那些不配拥有权力的人来说。

For somebody who doesn't deserve the power that they have.

你怎么区分那种觉得他们罪有应得的感觉，和单纯以别人的痛苦为乐呢？你懂我说的吧？

How do you know the difference between something that might feel like they're getting what's due versus taking pleasure in seeing someone else suffer, if that makes sense?

还是说其实是一回事，只是我给它贴了个更好的标签？

Or is it the same thing and I'm just putting a better label on it?

我觉得这更像是在那个光谱上不同的位置。

I think what it would be is just kind of like different places on that spectrum.

明白了。

Got it.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，行。

Okay.

比如，那些在施虐倾向上得分很高的人，可能会说，没错。

So, like, someone who scores really high on sadism might be like, oh, yeah.

我喜欢激烈的体育比赛。

I love, you know, violent sports.

我也喜欢暴力的电子游戏，因为看角色脑袋炸开什么的，我觉得挺过瘾。

I love violent video games because I enjoy seeing, you know, the heads blow off the characters or whatever.

我还特别喜欢在网上故意惹人生气，因为那种感觉特别刺激，就是……

And I also love I also love trolling people online because it gives me kind of a thrill to just, like

让人难堪。

Bring people down.

就是这么回事。

Notch.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以他们可能也会感到幸灾乐祸。

And so they might also feel schadenfreude.

对吧？

Right?

他们会说：没错。

But they would be like, yes.

是的，对咱们展示给他们的每一样东西，他们都会说好。

Yes, yes to, like, all of these different items that we present to them.

而你可能会说，嗯，对其中一项稍微认同一点。

And you would be like, yeah, a little bit on one item.

对吧？

Right?

所以你在这种程度上很低，而他们则很高。

So you would be pretty low on that spectrum and they would be pretty high.

当网上出现群起攻击、大家齐力贬低某个人的时候，这些算是微观施虐的表现吗？

So when there's a pile on online and people are just tearing somebody down, those are examples of micro sadism?

没错。

Yeah.

有很多研究显示，得分越高的人越倾向于参与网络引战行为。

So there's great research showing that people who score higher in sadism also tend to be more likely to engage in online trolling.

但实际上，这只是互联网上一小部分人。

And it's actually, like, a small proportion of the Internet.

感觉整个互联网都是这样。

It feels like a lot of the Internet.

对吧？

Right?

但实际上，这样的人只占极少数。

But it's actually a pretty small proportion of people.

那像你生活中那种特别热衷暴力运动、喜欢看游戏里人头爆裂的人，为什么你要在意这个呢？

Why should micro sadism, somebody in your life that is really into violent sports or loves seeing, heads blown off on video games, should that concern you?

我觉得，对于这类事情，我会先记在心里，当作一个警示信号，然后思考该怎么和这样的人相处，这个性格特点会不会影响我们的互动。

I think as with all of these things, I kind of file them away, and I'm like, I'm gonna hold on to that red flag, and I'm going to think about how I need to interact with you and whether this personality trait is going to get in the way of that.

比如说，你有个兄弟或者表亲，特别喜欢看UFC。

If you've got, like, I don't know, a brother or a cousin who's like, I love UFC.

但这并不意味着就得和他们一刀两断。

I mean, this is not necessarily like a throw them away kind of situation.

对吧？

Right?

他可能在其他所有虐待倾向的方面得分都很低，根本没什么问题。

It's like, he might, you know, score relatively low on all of the other aspects of sadism and not a problem whatsoever.

这也许只是更大性格问题中的一部分表现。

It might be part of a personality pattern that is a much bigger problem.

明白了。

Gotcha.

所以你要看的是，这种行为是否在长时间、不同情境下都持续出现。

And so you're looking for evidence of this, like, over time and across context.

不光是在运动里。

It's not just in sports.

对吧？

Right?

也不光是在跟你聊天的时候。

It's not just in conversations with you.

工作上也可能有。

It's also at work.

他在家里对待自己的家人时也是这样。

It's also, you know, at home with his own family.

所以，滕林克医生，怎么区分一个人只是暂时表现得很糟糕，还是真的具备黑暗人格特质呢？

So doctor Ten Brinke, what are the signs that someone is being terrible just temporarily versus they truly have dark personality traits?

如果你只是在那一刻才接触到这个人，很难做出判断。

So if you're just coming into the situation at that moment, it's gonna be very difficult to discern.

你真正需要的是时间。

What you really need is time.

明白。

K.

那些具有高度黑暗人格特质的人，无论在什么时间、什么情境下，都会一贯如此。

Because someone who has high levels of these dark traits are that way consistently across time and context.

而有些人只是因为压力大、累了、饿了，才做出冷漠或残忍的事，这其实是偏离了他们平时的行为模式。

Whereas someone who, you know, is stressed, is tired, is hungry, etcetera, and they do something callous, they do something cruel, that is a deviation from their normal pattern of behavior.

所以，如果你能掌握更多关于这个人的背景信息，就更容易判断：这种行为是他们一贯的风格，还是只是偶然的异常举动。

So having, like, a bigger scope of information about this person is gonna help you to see whether that's like, that tracks or more like, oh, that was a weird thing that they just did.

你知道吗，滕布林克医生，你说哪怕刚认识一个人十秒钟，就能看出他有没有黑暗人格特质。

You know, doctor ten Brinke, you say that within ten seconds, even of meeting somebody, you can spot a dark personality trait.

那你具体在看些什么呢？

What are you looking for?

好吧。

Okay.

这事儿有好有坏：好消息是，即使没什么经验的人，也能在短短五秒内，凭直觉大致判断出一个人是不是有精神病态特质。

So bit of a good news, bad news situation here is that good news, people with very little training can detect with some kernel of truth the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits or not just like five seconds.

五秒？

Five seconds?

就是观察他们五秒的行为表现。

Five seconds of their behavior.

这方法不完美，可能需要后续调整，但咱们先聊聊这项研究。

It's not perfect, and it might need to be updated over time, but let's talk about this research.

这是斯科特·利德尔费尔德和他的团队做的研究，他们用了些囚犯的视频资料。

So this is work done by Scott Liddellenfeld and his colleagues, and he had videos of men who were incarcerated.

他们当时正在接受一位心理学家的半结构化访谈，这是评估精神病态的一部分。

They were actually, doing a semi structured interview with a psychologist that was part of a psychopathy assessment.

他请了一些受过训练的心理学家，进行长时间的访谈和案件审查，来判断这些人的性格特征。

And so he had trained psychologists who were doing this long interview and, like, criminal case review to try to assess these personality traits.

然后他截取了这些访谈中五到十秒的片段，给一些只对精神病态有基本了解的人看，就像我们之前在这期节目中提到的那样。

And then he took five seconds or, like, ten second clips of this interview and showed them to people who just had, you know, a little definition of what psychopathy was, kinda like we did earlier in this episode.

为了帮你回忆一下，是的。

And just for a refresher Mhmm.

精神病态就是你善于操控、冷酷无情，同时又冲动、不守规则。

Psychopathy is when you are manipulative and callous, but you also are a rule breaker in your impulsive.

这么说对吗？

Is that right?

没错。

Exactly.

明白了。

Okay.

明白了

Got

你。

you.

于是，我们给那些完全没有受过训练的人看了你刚才说的那点定义，再配上五秒钟的视频片段，问他们：你觉得这些人属于 psychopathy 的哪个程度？

So gave completely untrained people that little definition that you just gave and five seconds of their behavior and said, you know, where do you think they fall on this kind of spectrum of psychopathy?

结果发现，这些外行给出的评分，和那些经过专业训练、看过完整访谈和案件材料的心理学家的评估，居然有相当程度的关联。

And the ratings that these untrained people gave were reasonably correlated with the trained psychologist who had the benefit all of, like, a much longer interview and this criminal case file review.

明白了。

Okay.

所以我们不禁想，他们到底看出了什么？

So we're like, what are they looking at?

对吧？

Right?

于是我和我的同事们联系了斯科特，问他能不能给我们这些视频。

So my colleagues and I, we reached out to Scott, and we're like, can we get these videos?

我们想分析一下他们的行为表现。

We wanna code.

我们想知道人们到底在看什么。

We wanna know what people are looking at.

我们发现，那些高心理变态得分的人说话充满敌意，却面带灿烂的笑容。

And what we found was that the people with high levels of psychopathy were saying really hostile things and smiling broadly.

我们称之为杜兴式微笑，就是嘴角上扬时，眼角也会出现细小的皱纹。

We call it a Duchenne smile with you get those little, crinkles around your eyes that go along with the upturned lips.

全都是冷血的表现，我当时就想，好吧。

All was douche, and I'm like, okay.

对。

Yeah.

听起来就像有人一边说着特别残忍的话，一边还在笑。

Sounds like somebody would smile as they're saying something, like, oh, cruel.

没错。

Yes.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

所以我们看到，他们所说的内容和表达方式之间存在着极大的不一致。

So we're getting this, like, extreme kind of discordance between the things they're saying and the way that they're expressing it.

人们自然而然地觉得这很奇怪。

And people kind of naturally were like, that's weird.

我认为这和精神病态有关。

I think that's associated with psychopathy.

在这种情况下，这是一个相当有用的线索。

And that was a reasonably useful cue in this case.

还有其他一些你可以留意的现象。

There are other things that you can look forward to.

高精神病态倾向的人在对话中更倾向于打断别人，却不愿被别人打断。

So high psychopathy folks are more likely to interrupt you in conversation but refuse to be interrupted themselves.

他们无视这些个人和职业的界限。

They ignore those personal and professional boundaries.

他们可能会表现得异常平静。

They might be kind of, like, oddly calm.

当你本该看到他们内疚或羞愧的时候，他们却毫无反应，反而一副高人一等的样子。

So, like, they're not showing guilt or shame whenever you would expect that to be the case, which they have an air of moral superiority about them.

他们可能特别容易生气，一旦没法引你吵架，比如你不上钩，就会变得很烦躁。

They might be unusually angry, and they might get frustrated when they can't bait you into an argument, like if you don't take the bait.

他们就是在等你表现出敌意。

Like, they're looking for that hostility.

如果你不配合，他们就会感到挫败。

And if you don't give it to them, they can get frustrated.

这些都不是像匹诺曹的长鼻子那样明显的标志。

So, like, none of these are a Pinocchio's nose.

对吧？

Right?

并没有一种行为是每个高心理变态水平的人都会一直做的。

They're not there's no one behavior that's always gonna be like, all people with high levels of psychopathy do this all of the time.

但如果你在多次互动中开始看到这种模式出现，那你就可以越来越有把握，认定这个人具备这种性格特质。

But if you start seeing this pattern unfolding, you know, across multiple interactions, that's when you can be, like, you know, increasingly confident that that this personality trait is present.

为什么有黑暗人格特质的人常常占据领导和权力职位？

Why are people with dark personality traits so often in leadership and powerful roles?

这是个很好的问题，我曾经花了很多时间反复思考。

This is a great question, which I've spent many, many a moon thinking about.

我觉得原因有很多，方方面面都有。

I there's a, I think, a whole bunch of different reasons.

第一个原因，我们常常忽略，就是他们真的想要这些位置。

The first one, I think we overlook, which is just that they want it.

我们在研究自恋时，通常会让人们自我报告，也就是自己描述自己的性格。

When we study narcissism, often we have people do self report, so they're just reporting on their own personality.

其中有一项是：我天生就是个领导者。

One of those items is I am a born leader.

然后你会问，你多认同这句话？

And you're like, how much do you agree with that statement?

如果你觉得‘我天生就是个领导者’，那你大概也在积极争取工作中的晋升机会。

If you're like, yeah, I am a born leader, then you're probably also gunning for that promotion at work.

你会更愿意主动争取那些地位高的职位。

Like, you're gonna be more likely to put yourself forward for a high status position.

这是一方面。

So that's one thing.

另一方面，我们往往被他们的自信蒙蔽了。

Another is that we tend to be really blinded by their confidence.

我们把自信误当成能力。

Like, we confuse confidence with competence.

当一个人表现得特别张扬，说自己能做、做过很多了不起的事，看起来信心十足，我们就会信以为真。

And so when people, you know, come across with, like, a lot of bravado, they say they can and they have done all of these incredible things and they seem very self assured, but we believe it.

而那些总爱自我吹嘘、为了达到目的不惜撒谎的人，确实很容易让人上当。

And whenever you're talking about people who tend to be pumping themselves up and are willing to lie in order to get what they want, like, can be quite misleading.

什么是煤气灯效应，医生滕布林克？什么又不是煤气灯效应？

What is gaslighting doctor Tenbrinke, and what is not gaslighting?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得人们动不动就问：‘你是不是在对我进行煤气灯效应？’

So I think people throw around like, are you gaslighting me?

哪怕只是有点困惑，或者你我对某个情况的理解有点不一样。

Like, even when there's like a little bit of confusion or like you interpreted a situation a little bit differently than I did.

没错。

Yep.

或者，有些事情他们觉得想不通。

Or, you know, something doesn't make sense to them.

我们这么用这个词确实有它的道理，但确实被用得太滥了。

And there's there's like a kernel of truth in the way that we're using that, but it's it's certainly overused.

这可不只是对事情的看法不同那么简单。

It's not just, you know, having a different perspective on things.

这不只是意见不合。

It's not just a disagreement.

对。

Mhmm.

这是一种心理和情感上的虐待，施加者会刻意营造一种荒诞的环境，让对方觉得自己疯了。

It is a type of psychological and emotional abuse that involves someone attempting to make another person feel crazy by creating this kind of like surreal environment around them.

这不仅仅是孤立、恐吓或贬低一个人。

So it's not just like isolating or intimidating or minimizing someone.

而是要让人怀疑自己的思维、记忆、反应，甚至对世界的感知。

It's trying to make them, like, not trust their own mind, their own their memories, their reactions, their, like, experience of the world.

我们的大脑本质上就像一台预测机器。

And our brains are essentially like prediction machines.

当别人不断告诉你，你所有的预测都是错的，这种冲击会让人非常不安。

And so whenever we get feedback from another person that, like, all the predictions that you are making are wrong, it can be really destabilizing.

最让人担忧的是，当你开始觉得：我无法相信自己的判断，必须依赖别人的解释。

And and I think what's most concerning about it is when you start to feel like I can't trust my own mind's interpretation of events, so I need your interpretation.

这会让人对对方产生强烈的依赖，同时与其他人逐渐疏远。

And that can create this real sense of dependence on another person and and isolation from other people.

说实话，与其他类型的虐待相比，我们对煤气灯效应的研究还相当有限。

I mean, compared to other types of abuse, we actually have relatively little research on gaslighting.

但我们知道，那些具有高度黑暗人格特质的人，往往在亲密关系中认可这种行为。

But we do know that people with high levels of dark personality traits endorse this kind of behavior in romantic relationships.

人们被问到：你觉得对别人说‘那根本没发生过’、‘你的反应太过分了’，或者试图让他们怀疑自己对世界的感知，这种做法怎么样？

People were asked, what do you think about, you know, telling someone that, you know, that didn't actually happen that way or their reactions are completely outsized or trying to make them doubt their experience of the world?

而那些具备今天提到的多种黑暗人格特质的人，却觉得这没什么大不了的。

And people with higher levels of all the dark personality traits that we talked about today were like, that seems fine.

所以，这种操控真的会让人极度混乱，而且很难摆脱。

So so, that can be, you know, incredibly destabilizing and difficult to get out of.

拥有黑暗人格的人能改变吗？

Can a person with a dark personality change?

人格确实是有可能改变的。

So personalities can change.

他们通常很难有太大改变，尤其是当本人并不真心想改的时候。

They tend to change very little over time, especially if people are not committed to that kind of change.

有黑暗人格特质的人往往对改变自己没什么兴趣。

And people with dark personalities tend not to be very concerned about changing themselves.

如果你冷漠、爱操控、还充满敌意，那确实。

Well, if you're callous, manipulative, and hostile Yeah.

那你为什么要改呢？

Then why would you change?

没错。

Exactly.

他们总觉得这是你的问题，不是我的问题。

It's they see it as more of a this is a you problem, not a me problem.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Uh-huh.

所以

So

他们通常对接受治疗没什么动力。

they tend not to have a whole lot of commitment to therapy.

目前我们已有的研究，特别是关于精神病态的，表明如果一个人能坚持参加多次治疗，他们的行为问题确实能有所缓解，有点像减少伤害的效果。

Now the research that we do have, say, on psychopathy in particular, suggests that if people will stay in therapy for, like, multiple sessions, they can reduce it's almost like a harm reduction in their behavior.

这些研究大多针对服刑的男性，我们关注的指标是再犯率。

So most of this research is with incarcerated men, and the outcome that we're looking at is recidivism.

也就是他们出狱后再次犯罪的可能性。

So likelihood that they will commit another offense when they get released.

而那些坚持更长时间治疗的人，再犯的可能性更低，也更不容易重返监狱。

And the guys who stick with treatment longer are less likely to engage in recidivism and come back to prison.

这真是太好了。

So that's amazing.

这确实是一种进步。

That's an improvement.

他们并不会变成截然不同的人。

They do not become dramatically different people.

也就是说，他们不会变成那种特别善良、诚实的人。

Like, they don't become, you know, the most kind and honest person.

我们不是在期待人格来个180度大转变，但确实能减少一些更成问题的行为。

We're not looking at a personality one eighty here, but you can get reduction in in some of perhaps more problematic behaviors.

我问你这个问题，是因为我记得一位专攻自恋型人格障碍的罗曼尼·迪弗萨拉医生，曾经对我说过一句话，彻底改变了我对待生活中那些明显具备这些特质的人的方式。

Well, reason why I ask you that is because I remember doctor Romani Diversala, who specializes in narcissistic personality disorders, once said something to me that changed the way that I forever deal with a person in my life who clearly has all the traits.

她 basically 说的是，当你意识到这些负面特质后，让你感到如此痛苦和沮丧的唯一原因，是你一直相信并期待对方会改变。

And what she basically said is, the single thing that is creating so much pain and frustration when you're dealing with somebody once you recognize these dark traits is your belief and hope that the other person will change.

对。

Yeah.

你抱着一种幻想，觉得只要自己拼命妥协——多忍几年、压低声音、多烤点纸杯蛋糕、多做几次爱、或者圣诞节准时出现，对方就会变好。但正是这种幻想，让你看不到眼前真实的状况。

And holding out hope for a fantasy of what might happen if you twist yourself in knots or you stay for ten more years or you just lower your voice or you bake more cupcakes or have more sex or show up at Christmas, that that hope for the fantasy keeps you from recognizing the reality of what you're dealing with.

对。

Yeah.

你对这种观点有什么看法吗？

Do you have any thoughts on sort of that perspective?

我觉得她说得完全对，我能不能期待别人改变，其实跟他们自己有没有意愿或能力改变一点关系都没有。

I mean, I think she's totally right, is that my commitment to someone else changing really doesn't have anything to do with their commitment or ability to change.

一个人的性格，就像我们之前说的，是他们一贯的思维方式、情感反应和行为模式，而不是你对它的感受。

And so someone's personality is, as we've been talking about, their consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving, not how you feel about it.

这根本不在定义范围之内。

That's not part of the definition.

所以，你对别人性格的反应，或者你的期待，

So, like, your reaction to their personality Or wish.

是的。

Yeah.

你的期待，或者说你的幻想，

Or Or wish wish is like Or dream.

都不在其中。

Is not part of it.

这不相关。

It's not relevant.

但当你觉得自己已经尽了所有努力想改变对方时，真的会很受伤。

And but it hurts whenever you are like, I'm doing all of the things that I can possibly do to change you.

我们其实可以调整和那些性格阴暗的人互动的方式，让相处没那么糟，至少别让这种互动毁了我一整天的心情。

I think there are ways that we can approach interactions with people with dark personalities to make them a little smoother, to, like, make it just makes it, like, less likely that this interaction is gonna ruin my whole day.

虽然改变不了他们的性格，但至少能让自己好受一点。

It's not gonna change their personality, but it's gonna just, like, okay.

我们可以减少日常互动带来的压力。

We can reduce the stress, like, day to day interaction interaction.

那我们举个例子吧。

So let's take an example.

你听Ten Brinke博士讲的时候，肯定已经在想某个你不得不打交道的人了，可能是家人、同事，或者朋友圈里的人。

So as you've been listening to doctor ten Brinke, I bet you're imagining somebody that you have to deal with, whether they're in your family or they're somebody that you see at work or they're in your friend group.

也可能是那个特别难搞、总对你充满敌意的邻居，或者你的前伴侣。

Maybe it's a neighbor who is particularly difficult and hostile to deal with, or maybe it's your ex.

很多人跟前伴侣有纠纷，尤其是涉及抚养权的时候，往往会出现很多阴暗人格的问题。

Like a lot of people have situations with exes, especially when there's custody issues that have a lot of dark personality stuff coming up.

当你意识到自己在和这样的人打交道，同时又明白你根本无法改变他们，但只要你看清了局面，就可以调整自己的应对方式，从而减轻它对你的影响。

So when you recognize that you're dealing with somebody with these traits, and you also recognize the truth that you have no control over them changing, but when you recognize the situation, you could maybe change how you approach a situation to reduce its impact on you.

是的。

Yeah.

我想请你直接对听众说几句话，因为你今天教了我们这么多，真正帮我们看清了：这种特质是一个连续谱，你唯一能控制的，就是你自己如何应对；而且确实有一些办法可以做，其中最重要的一条，就是别指望对方会变。

I would love for you to speak directly to the person who's listening, because you have taught us so much today, and really helped us to see both that this is on a continuum, that there's only certain things you can control, which is how you're gonna show up, and that there are things to do here, one of them not being that the other person's changing.

如果听众听完你今天讲的这些，只记住一件事，你觉得最该采取的行动是什么？

If the person listening takes just one action after hearing everything that you've taught us, what do you think the most important thing to do after listening to this is?

我觉得首先要放慢节奏，因为人格是一种模式。

I think it's to slow down because personality is a pattern.

我们一再提到这一点。

We keep talking about this over and over again.

这种模式，作为伴侣、朋友或同事，你几乎没有能力去改变。

And it's a pattern that as a spouse or as a friend or a coworker, you don't have a whole lot of ability to change.