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大家好。
Hey.
我是任·梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's Ren Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
咱们不妨直接把话挑明了说。
Let's just come out and say it.
就是友谊这件事。
Friendship.
现在的日子真的太煎熬了。
It's really hard right now.
所以我想告诉你，不止你一个人觉得，生活里就只有无休止的工作、杂事、压力，还要照顾家人，日子过得一团乱麻。
And I wanna tell you, you're not the only one who feels like life is just this giant blur of work and errands and stress and taking care of family.
说真的，我们谁都不知道身边的朋友都去哪了，也不知道该怎么认识新朋友。
I mean, none of us know where all of our friends went or how to make new ones.
其实我在网上发起了一次投票，有三千万观众参与了，我来给大家说说你们的真实反馈。
You know, in fact, I polled our audience of 30,000,000 people online, and here's what you told me.
有86%的观众都希望拥有更好的人际关系，但大部分人都表示，结识新朋友实在太难了，甚至很多人承认，宁愿一个人待在家里，也不想花精力去社交。
86% of you want better friendships, but the majority of you are saying it's very hard to meet new friends, and you even admit that you'd rather be at home alone than make the effort.
所以今天，我就和大家一起来聊聊这个问题。
So today, here's what you and I are doing.
我们今天请到了一位出身哈佛大学的社会学家，她研究友谊、人际联结和孤独感已经有15年了，此刻她就在我们波士顿的演播室里。她会分享很多实用的方法，帮大家从今天开始，就能在生活中感受到更多的联结。
We have a Harvard trained social scientist who's been researching friendship, connection, and loneliness for fifteen years here in our Boston studio, and she's brought tools that will help you feel more connected in your life starting today.
她还会根据几十年的研究成果，给出一个极具说服力的理由，告诉大家为什么一定要认真对待自己的人际关系这件事。
And she will also share a compelling reason based on decades of research why it matters that you take this part of your life seriously.
这让我想起一句特别喜欢的话。
You know, it reminds me of this quote that I love.
人人都想拥有一个社群大家庭。
Everyone wants a village.
但没人愿意踏踏实实地做这个家庭里的一员，为彼此付出。
Nobody wants to be a villager.
那今天，我就陪你一起当好这个家庭成员——因为社群从来不是靠等就能等来的，得靠我们亲手搭建起来。
Well, today, you and I are going to be the villager because the village isn't something you find, it's something you build.
你可以采取一些具体的行动，放下那些借口，养成一些简单的习惯，这样新的关系自然会出现，现有的关系也会变得更深厚、更有意义。
And there are specific steps that you can take, excuses that you must leave behind, and simple habits that will make new connections appear and your existing relationships become deeper and more meaningful.
因为人与人之间的连接，不是可有可无的。
Because connection isn't a nice to have.
它是过上充实、幸福生活的最重要需求之一。
It's one of the most important requirements of living a fulfilling and happy life.
你好，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
我特别兴奋今天要聊的这个话题，真的非常重要。
I am buzzing about the conversation we're going to have today because this one is really important.
能和你一起度过这段时光，我感到很荣幸。
You know, it's an honor to be together and to spend this time with you.
如果你是新听众，或者是因为别人分享才来的——我觉得这一期一定会被大家广泛传播——我 personally 想欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客的大家庭。
If you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, and I have a feeling this one's gonna be a big one that we all share with each other, I just wanna personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
我特别期待你认识今天的嘉宾，卡斯莉·基拉姆。
I cannot wait for you to meet today's expert, Kasley Killam.
今天她会和大家聊聊成年人交朋友的真实处境——不只你一个人在为此发愁，以及怎么才能经营出更好的人际关系。
She is here to share the reality of adult friendship, It's Not Just You, and how to build better relationships.
卡斯利·基拉姆是哈佛大学出身的社会科学家，过去十五年里，她一直在研究人际联结如何提升人的幸福感。
Kasley Killam is a Harvard trained social scientist who has spent the last fifteen years researching how human connection improves your well-being.
她著有一本畅销书，书名是《为什么社交健康是活得更久、更健康、更快乐的核心密码：社交健康的理论与实践》。
She's the bestselling author of The Art and Science of Why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier.
卡斯利在哈佛大学陈曾熙公共卫生学院取得了硕士学位。
Kasley earned her master's degree from Harvard T.
陈曾熙公共卫生学院
H.
还拥有斯坦福大学商学院和哥伦比亚大学颁发的专业证书。
Chan School of Public Health and holds professional certificates from Stanford Graduate School of Business and Columbia University.
她还在宾夕法尼亚大学从事过积极心理学方向的研究，还在斯坦福大学发起过一个获奖项目，专门推广同理心与善意。
She's also conducted research in positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and launched an award winning initiative promoting empathy and kindness at Stanford University.
她曾是哥伦比亚大学、阿斯彭健康研究所，以及心智与生命研究所的研究员。
She has been a fellow at Columbia University, Aspen Institute of Health, and Mind and Life Institute.
今天，卡斯利·基拉姆会来到这里为大家答疑解惑。
And today, Kasley Killam is here to help you.
她会分享相关研究、实用工具和实操建议，帮大家建立更紧密的联结、经营能够长久的友谊，同时明白人际联结为何是打造有意义人生的核心。
She's going to share the research, the tools, and the practical advice you need in order to feel more connected, build friendships that last, and understand why connection is the key to a meaningful life.
让我们欢迎卡斯利·基拉姆来到梅尔·罗宾斯的播客节目。
Please help me welcome Kasley Killam to the Mel Robbins podcast.
非常感谢你，梅尔。
Thank you so much, Mel.
你能来真的太棒了，先从办公室的场景说起吧。
I am so excited that you're here because The Office.
就是那种50多个人像蜜蜂一样忙忙碌碌挤在一起的办公室。
I'm talking like 50 people buzzing around like bees.
大家都特别期待你能给我们讲讲关于交朋友的那些事。
So excited about what you're about to teach us about friendship.
为什么经营成年友情这件事这么重要呢？
Why does this matter so much?
我们今天能学到什么？
What are we gonna learn?
首先，这个问题之所以重要，是因为现在的年轻人每年和朋友相处的时间比以前少了近一千小时。
Well, first of all, it matters because young people today spend nearly a thousand fewer hours per year with their friends.
先等我插一句。
Hold on a second.
一年少了整整一千小时？
A thousand less hours a year?
和二十年前比起来。
Compared to twenty years ago.
好的。
Okay.
我得找个人帮我核对下这个数字对不对。
I just want somebody better check my math on this.
但一千小时如果按每周工作四十小时来算，整整需要二十五周。
But a thousand hours, if you put it in a forty hour work week, is twenty five weeks.
这太夸张了吧。
That's terrible.
对的。
Yeah.
而且情况还在恶化，梅尔。
And it gets worse, Mel.
有67%的美国人从来都不参加任何俱乐部、组织或者团体活动，还有72%的美国人每个月和自己在意的人见面的次数最多只有两次，甚至只有一次，或者根本就不见面。
67% of Americans never participate in any kind of club or organization or group, and 72% of Americans hang out with the people they care about two, one, or zero times per month.
是每个月吗？
Per month?
没错。
Yes.
每月和朋友见0次、1次或者最多2次。
Two, one, or zero times per month.
这一下就说得通了，为什么大家总觉得孤单，总说见不到朋友，还说成年人的友谊太难维持了。
Puts into perspective why people feel lonely, why people say I never see my friends, why people say adult friendship is so hard.
那我们要怎么解决这个问题呢？
What are we gonna do about this?
其实，之所以会这样，是因为
Well, so there's a reason that
我是从公共卫生的视角来研究孤独问题的。
I studied loneliness from the perspective of public health.
原来是这样。
Okay.
要想改善这些数据，我们每个人都得主动做很多事——主动出击，多花时间和朋友见面，你说对不对？
Because there's a lot that we need to do as individuals to take agency, to go out and spend more time with our friends, right, to change these numbers.
但现实情况是，我们现在所处的社会大环境，本身就让社交这件事变得很难。
But the reality is we're also living in a society right now when it feels hard.
对吧？
Right?
我们一直都在连轴转地工作。
We work all the time.
上下班路程还很长。
We have long commutes.
我们在社交媒体上花了太多时间，这种感觉就像吃了垃圾食品，当时觉得饱了、满足了，但根本没吸收到身体需要的营养。
We're spending so much time on social media that it feels like we're eating junk food and we're full and we're satisfied, but we're not actually getting the nutrients that we need.
没错吧？
Right?
造成这种局面的因素实在太多了。
There's so many different factors.
现在的人比以前流动性大很多。
People move around more than they used to.
独居的人也比过去多。
More people live alone than used to.
现代社会有太多这样的趋势和客观因素，把人搞得很难受。
So there's a lot of trends in modern society and forces that make it feel really hard.
所以我们今天来这儿，就是要帮每一个听众主动行动起来，做出改变。
And so, you know, our goal here today is to empower you as the individual to take steps and to take action.
另外我们也需要逐步改变当下的文化环境，这样大家在日常生活中才能更轻松地维持良好的社交状态。
And also we need to slowly shift the culture that we're living in so that it's easier to be socially healthy day to day.
但你不能干等着文化环境自己改变。
But you can't wait for the culture to shift.
绝对不能等。
You cannot.
你得主动行动，为自己创造出适合的社交环境。
You have to be shifting it for yourself.
完全没错。
Exactly.
那有没有什么好消息呢？
So is there good news here?
就是说，如果我认真听你接下来要讲的关于孤独、友谊、人际联结，还有成年人如何交朋友的内容，把这些研究都放在心上，我的生活能发生什么变化？
Like, what's gonna change about my life if I take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about loneliness, friendship, connection, making friends as an adult, what's gonna change about my life if I take your research to heart?
首先，我希望能帮你彻底重新定义，对自己来说怎样才算真正的健康。
So first of all, I hope to completely redefine what it means to be healthy for you.
哦这样啊。
Oh.
所以健康不像我们平时聊的那样，只包含身体健康和心理健康。
So health is not just physical and mental like we typically talk about.
社交健康也是健康的一部分。
Health is also social.
其次，我希望能给你提供一些有研究支撑的实用方法，帮你掌握自己社交健康的主动权，学会建立更稳固的人际关系，加深和他人的联结。
And secondly, I hope to equip you with research backed practical tools for how to take control of your social health, for how to build stronger relationships, for how to deepen your connections.
你说得对。
You're right.
我们确实经常会聊到心理健康、心态还有幸福这些话题。
We do talk a lot about mental health and mindset and happiness.
也会聊身体健康。
We talk about physical health.
还会聊财务健康的问题。
We talk about financial health.
社会健康是我们同样需要重视的一个健康支柱。
This is a pillar, social health, that we need to pay equal attention to.
你想表达的是这个意思吗？
Is that what you're saying?
社会健康是整体身心健康的重要组成部分，它来自于人和人的联结。
Social health is the dimension of your overall health and well-being that comes from connection.
打个比方说，身体健康和我们的身体机能相关。
So if you think about physical health is about our bodies.
没错。
Yep.
心理健康是关乎我们的精神状态的。
Mental health is about our minds.
而社交健康是关乎我们的人际关系的。
Social health is about our relationships.
如果你把整体的身心健康比作一座希腊神庙，身体健康、心理健康和社交健康就是支撑它的三根支柱，那社交健康这根支柱已经被忽略和低估太久了，而现在这种情况正在发生改变。
So if you think about your health and well-being in general as a Greek temple with physical, mental, and social pillars, that social pillar has been overlooked and underappreciated for way too long, and that is changing right now.
就在去年，我在世界卫生组织的同事们正式发布并宣告，社会健康和身体健康、心理健康同等重要。
Just last year, my colleagues at the World Health Organization reported and announced that social health is equally important as physical and mental health.
我也和全球各地的同事一起，致力于推广这个理念，让它像如今的心理健康一样成为大众共识、受到同等重视。
And together with my colleagues around the world, we are working to elevate this concept and to make it as mainstream and important as mental health is today.
那我想问问你，你研究社会健康、人际联结还有友谊，已经快十五年了。
So the question that I have for you is you've spent almost fifteen years studying social health and connection and friendship.
为什么人际联结和友谊对我们来说必不可少呢？
Why is connection and friendship essential Mhmm.
是为了活得更久、更健康、更充实吗？
For a longer, healthier, more fulfilling life?
几十年间数千项研究、涉及的参与者加起来足有几十亿人，这些反复验证的结论都告诉我们：人际交往和朋友情谊的重要性，远不止是让我们心情好、过得开心而已。
So decades of research with thousands of studies, literally billions of participants have shown us time and time again that human connection, friendships, they are vital for so much more than just having a good mood and feeling happy.
没错。
Yes.
那肯定只是其中一个方面。
That's one piece of it for sure.
对吧？
Right?
当我们感受到彼此的联结，拥有能相互支持的关系时，我们的心理健康状态会更好。
When we feel connected, when we have supportive relationships, it boosts our mental health.
这些关系能给我们的生活带来意义和目标。
It brings meaning and purpose into our lives.
还能帮我们在困境中更快地振作起来，拥有更强的韧性。
It helps us be more resilient in hard times.
人际关系甚至能降低我们患上抑郁症、甚至自杀的风险。
It even lowers our risk for things like depression and suicide.
没错。
Absolutely.
不过可能很少有人会想到，社交联结还会对我们的身体健康产生影响。
But perhaps less intuitive is the impact of connection on our physical health.
研究发现，如果你拥有能提供支持的亲密关系，首先你本身就更不容易生病。
So we see that when you have those supportive relationships, you are less likely to get sick in the first place.
举个例子，我个人特别喜欢的一项研究里，研究人员跟踪调查了一组人，整整跟踪了两周时间。
So for example, one of my favorite studies, researchers followed a group of people for two weeks.
这两周里，他们每天都会问这些人两个问题：你觉得自己得到的支持够不够？这一天里一共抱了几次？
And every day, they asked people, how supported do you feel and how many hugs have you had?
等两周结束后，研究人员让这些人都接触了会引发感冒的病毒。
And then at the end of the two weeks, they exposed people to a cold virus.
最后他们发现，那些平时感受到更多支持、拥抱次数也更多的人，最后感冒的概率要低得多。
What they found was that people who felt more supported and had more hugs were less likely to get sick.
而且哪怕真的生病了，症状也会更少
And if they did get sick, they had fewer
不会那么严重。
symptoms.
为什么会这样呢？
Why?
这个问题问得很好。
That's a great question.
主要有两方面的原因
Because of two things going on.
第一点和生理机能直接相关
The first is very physiological.
明白吧？
Okay?
我们观察到，人际关系的亲疏会直接影响我们身体的生理运转状态
So what we see is that connection influences the biological functioning of our bodies.
你先花几秒钟想想那种和外界脱节的感受。
So for a second, think about feeling disconnected.
就是那种觉得自己孤立无援、孤零零的状态。
Think about feeling isolated or lonely.
这种体验会带来很大的精神压力。
That's a really stressful experience.
我们的身体会把这种状态识别成一种压力源。
Our bodies register that as a stressor.
是的。
Yeah.
这会导致体内释放皮质醇，增加炎症，长期下来让我们更容易生病。
And that releases cortisol in our bodies that can increase inflammation in our bodies, which then makes us more susceptible to illness and disease in the long term.
相反，当我们感到被连接、被支持，拥有那些让人感到被关爱的拥抱时，身体会释放多巴胺、催产素这些有益物质，这能起到保护作用。
The contrast to that is that connection, feeling supported, having those hugs where we feel cared for, and we're releasing dopamine and oxytocin and all those good things for us, that's protective.
它能缓冲压力带来的负面影响。
That buffers against that stress pathway.
所以，其中关键的一点就是这种生理反应。
So that's one key piece is this physiological response.
另一点则更实际。
The other is practical.
想象一下，如果你生病了，医生耐心给你解释用药方法，朋友开车接你出院，家人帮你按时吃药，你的康复效果肯定会更好。
So when you think about, you know, if you have an illness and your doctor takes time to explain the medications to you and your friend picks you up from the hospital and then your family member helps you take those medications, you're going to have better health outcomes.
这正是因为有这些支持你的人，才让你真正坚持完成了治疗。
And that's because you had all of those supportive ties helping you actually take the medication.
这项研究最有意思的地方，还有你把社交健康作为打造优质生活的核心支柱之一，这个视角特别好。对的。
What's really cool about this research is, and the way that you frame this as a pillar of your overall good life, social health Mhmm.
你刚才已经讲得很清楚了，有研究证实和他人相处、获得来自他人的拥抱确实能提升免疫力，让你的身体更有抵抗力。
Is you've just laid out that there's research that being around other people, getting hugs boosts your immune system, makes you more resilient physically.
这些点串在一起，就很能说明为什么主动维护人际关系，对你的整体健康来说是至关重要的。
And it's starting to paint this picture of why being proactive about maintaining connections is critical for your overall well-being.
是的。
Mhmm.
有个问题我一直很好奇，如果人际关系和社交健康这么重要，那具体要怎么去建立呢？
And one of the things that I'm curious about is if connection and social health is so important, how do you create it?
你可以把经营人际关系和健身做个类比。
So think about connection like you think about exercise.
好的。
K.
第一个方法就是锻炼你的社交能力。
The first strategy is to stretch your social muscles.
就像锻炼肌肉能让你的身体更敏捷灵活一样，你可以通过主动寻找机会结交新朋友、加入新圈子、多和人来往，来锻炼自己的社交能力。
So just like you stretch your physical muscles to get more nimble and flexible, you stretch your social muscles by seeking opportunities to make new friends, to join new groups, and to interact more often.
第二个方法是让你的社交能量好好休息一下。
The second strategy is to rest your social muscles.
如果当下所有社交活动都让你觉得疲惫不堪的话，你完全可以让自己的社交状态歇一歇。
So when everything feels draining, right, you can actually rest your social muscles.
花时间和自己独处，或者减少社交的频率，这同样非常重要。
It's also important to take time to connect with yourself or to scale back the amount of interaction.
孤独不是唯一的问题。
Loneliness isn't the only problem.
还有一种情况是社交过载，或是维持着一些无法让你获得满足感的社交关系。
It's also feeling over connected or connected in ways that aren't fulfilling.
就像我们在两组健身动作之间、或是不同的健身日之间需要让身体的肌肉休息恢复一样，我们的社交状态也需要休整。
So just like we rest our physical muscles in between reps or in between workouts to let our body heal, we also need to rest our social muscles.
第三个方法是强化我们的社交能力。
The third strategy is to tone our social muscles.
这意味着要更深入一些。
So this means getting deeper.
对吧？
Right?
深化我们已有的关系，和他们走得更近。
Deepening the connections that we already have, becoming closer to them.
就像我们通过举更重的哑铃或加大训练强度来锻炼肌肉一样，我们也可以通过加深关系来强化社交能力。
Just like we tone our physical muscles by lifting heavier weights or working out harder, we can deepen our connections to tone.
最后一个策略是展现我们的社交能力。
And then the final strategy is to flex our social muscles.
就像我们身体强壮、状态好的时候会展示肌肉一样，我们也可以展现自己的社交能力，享受现有的关系，并让它们长久维持下去。
So just like we flex our physical muscles when we are feeling really strong and looking good, we can flex our social muscles to enjoy the relationships that we have and actually sustain them in the long term.
其实我听出来，每一条都在说，主动权在我们自己手里，得我们自己去努力。
Well, you know what I'm hearing in every one of those is it's on us that we have to make an effort.
你觉得我们是不是已经忘了人际关系有多重要，现在才陷入这种孤独和疏离的流行病？
And do you think that we've gotten to a point where we've forgotten how important it is And now we're in this like epidemic of loneliness and disconnection.
你刚才讲的这些内容里，很多都在说社交健康——也就是你的人际关系、人际联结、社群、家人、友情这些——是非常核心的支柱。
And a lot of what you're teaching right now is how social health, meaning your relationships, connection, community, family, friendship is a core pillar.
就像你得负责照顾好自己的身心健康一样，你也得认真对待这件事。
And just like you're responsible for taking better care of your physical and mental health, you got to get serious about this.
对，完全就是这样。
Yeah, absolutely.
卡斯利，能不能请你和现在正在收听、正感觉无比孤独的听众说几句话？
You know, could you speak, Kasley, to the person who's listening right now who just feels super lonely?
所以如果你
So if you
现在正感到孤独，那我首先想说的是，你完全没必要为此感到羞愧。
are feeling lonely right now, the first thing I wanna say is that it is nothing to be ashamed of.
这绝不代表你不值得被爱，或者没人喜欢你。
It does not mean that you are not lovable or likable.
实际上，有这种感受的人非常多。
In fact, it's a really common experience.
你并不是唯一一个有这种感受的人。
You are not alone.
近期有一项研究显示，每六个美国人里就有一个表示，自己大部分时间甚至一直都处在孤立无援或是孤独的状态里。
A recent study found that one in six Americans reports being isolated or lonely most or all of the time.
所以孤独真的是非常普遍的经历，而且人际关系本身在人的一生里本来就是起起落落的。
So this is a really common experience, and relationships ebb and flow over the course of our lives.
我们会搬家换环境。
We move.
我们都有孩子，
We have kids.
也都经历过各种人生的转折，
We go through these different life changes.
孤独感其实是我们这个社会里非常普遍的一种状态，
It's actually a really natural symptom of our society.
我还想跟你说的第二点是，就像你能从体力不支变回身强体健一样，你也完全可以从孤独疏离的状态里走出来，重新拥有健康稳固的社交状态。
The second thing I wanna say to you is that just like you can go from being out of shape to physically strong again, you can go from feeling isolated or disconnected to being socially healthy and strong again.
你能不能讲讲孤独会给大脑和身体带来什么影响？为什么我们一定要重视社交健康？
Can you talk a little bit about what loneliness does to your brain and your body and why it is so important to take your social health seriously?
当然可以。
Sure.
相关的神经科学研究成果其实很有意思。
So the neuroscience on this is really interesting.
首先，我们发现如果人长期感到孤独，就会催生很多非常局限的负面自我认知。
For one thing, we see that when people are chronically lonely, that can trigger some really limiting self beliefs.
举个例子来说，那些感觉和社会脱节的人，在参与社交活动时往往会防备心很重，不太愿意敞开心扉分享自己的事，还会过度解读别人的负面信号，反而忽略了积极的信号。
So for example, people who are feeling disconnected might go into a social interaction feeling more guarded, less likely to open up and share, interpreting negative cues more than they're interpreting positive cues.
而这些心态会反过来阻碍他们和别人顺利开展一段愉快的交往。
And all of that can actually inhibit them from having a positive interaction with the other person.
讽刺的是，这有点像一个自我实现的预言，你越怕什么就越来什么。
Ironically, it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.
不过好在这件事也有积极的一面。
However, there's also good news here.
有一项研究里，研究人员对比了两组人的大脑活动，一组人一整天都独处，另一组人一整天都没吃东西。
So in one study, researchers compared the brain activity of people who had been isolated all day with the brain activity of people who had not eaten all day.
也就是说，一组人是孤独隔绝的状态，另一组则是饥饿的状态。
So they were either isolated and lonely or they were hungry.
结果这两组人大脑中被激活的区域是一模一样的。
The same brain regions were activated.
这就说明，孤独感在我们的大脑中是会被识别为一种需求信号的。
So what that tells us is that loneliness registers as a cue in our brain.
孤独其实就是身体给你发出的一个信号，告诉你有什么需求是你还没满足的
It's literally a signal telling you, hey, there's something you need that you're not getting.
这种提醒对我们来说其实很有意义
It's actually a really helpful thing from our bodies.
所以我想重新定义孤独：首先它完全是正常的，甚至能帮到我们，还能推动我们在生活中做出必要的改变
So in a way, I wanna reframe loneliness as something that's totally normal, first of all, that is actually helpful, and that can be a motivator to go make the changes that you need to make in your life.
你这个重新解读的角度，我真的太赞同了
You know, I love that reframe.
刚才我就在想，这些感受其实我们很多人都亲身经历过。
And I was just thinking about the fact that so much of this we've experienced.
我之前有一段连续五天的工作周，人在波士顿，身边天天围着我喜欢的同事们，等结束回家的时候，我那可怜的丈夫克里斯就不对了——他自己创业，平时大多时候都是一个人工作，我那次回去的时候整个人状态都特别满，他都看呆了。
Like, I know after a big production week where I'm here Boston for five days and I'm around all my colleagues who I love and, you know, I go home and my poor husband, Chris, who is an entrepreneur and who works alone a lot, you know, I come back from a I'm like, woah.
当时我整个人精力特别充沛。
And I'm all energized.
虽然说也累，但那种和人充分互动后带来的亢奋感一直没退。
And yeah, I'm tired, but I'm just like buzzing from the connection.
你会发现那些整天待在家里的人精力都很差，甚至不知道怎么回事，整个人都有点提不起劲、封闭自己。
And you can kind of see somebody that's been home all day has lower energy and they may be a little bit more, I don't know, like, kinda shut down.
而你刚刚想表达的其实是，我们必须开始重视这种感受。
And what you're basically saying is we have to start to take it more seriously.
没错。
Exactly.
如果你正感到孤独，那这并不是你的问题。
And that if you're lonely, that there's nothing wrong with you.
这是所有人都会经历的事。
This is something everybody goes through.
人生总会有几段时光感到孤独，但我们有办法应对，也应该主动做出改变。
I mean, you're gonna have periods of life where you feel lonely, but there's something we can do about it and you should.
没错。
Absolutely.
我觉得把这个话题当作影响整体健康的核心支柱来看待，非常有启发性——而不是只把它和交友、恋爱这类事混为一谈。
I think it's very fascinating to look at this area of your life, not like friendship and relationships and all this, but as a key pillar to your overall health.
毕竟谁都想把日子过好。
I mean, you wanna live a good life.
等到人生走到尽头回头看的时候，
You wanna get to the end of this thing and look back.
如果这辈子没留什么遗憾，你会为自己骄傲，身边也全都是你在乎、也在乎你的人，不会觉得自己浪费了光阴。
And if you've done it well, you're proud proud of yourself and you're surrounded by people that you care about and who love you and you feel like you didn't squander the time.
而根据各类研究，还有大家常说的那些常识，我们都清楚，人才是最重要的。
And we know based on the research and all the things that everybody talks about in common sense that it's the people.
生命里的这些人才是最重要的。
It's the people that are important in your life.
但说来奇怪，如果不是像你这样的研究者把这个议题摆到台面上，我们平时根本不会多想，直到陷入孤独、和身边人断了联系才会醒悟。
And yet, as odd as it sounds, until a lot of researchers like you highlight this area of our lives, we don't really think much about it until we're lonely and disconnected.
所以我想深入聊聊，现有研究到底指出，要想拥有良好的社交状态、过上圆满的生活，我们需要怎样的人际联结与亲密关系？
And so I wanna dig deeper into just what the research is saying about the types of connections we need and the types of relationships we need in order to have great social health and to live a good life?
那研究里有没有提到，人这一辈子到底需要哪几种特定的人际联结？
And what has the research said about the specific types of connections that you really need in your life?
这一点我稍后再聊
Let me come back to that.
我想先详细说说你刚才提到的一个点：人际关系的重要性远不止影响我们的心情这么简单
I first want to elaborate on something you said there, which is that connection matters for a lot more than just our moods.
它还和我们的身体健康息息相关
It matters for our physical health.
Mel，它甚至会影响我们能活多久
It also matters for our longevity, Mel.
那些拥有稳固友谊的人，患上心脏病、糖尿病、痴呆症这类疾病的风险更低，过早死亡的概率也会下降。
So people who have strong friendships have a lower risk for things like heart disease and diabetes and dementia, and have a reduced likelihood of premature mortality.
实际上，有不少研究统计过，长期陷入孤独会使死亡风险提升高达53%。
So in fact, some studies have estimated that the death toll of loneliness when it's chronic is up to fifty three percent.
这个风险水平和吸烟、肥胖等因素的影响差不多。
It's comparable to things like smoking and obesity and so on.
我说这些不是为了吓唬大家，而是想让大家真正意识到，我们必须严肃对待人际关系这件事。
So I say this not to scare people, but to really drive home the fact that we need to take this seriously.
我之所以把社交健康独立出来，和心理健康、身体健康并列为一个单独的支柱，就是因为它影响的远不止我们的情绪状态。
The reason why I talk about social health as a distinct pillar from mental health and from physical health is because it affects so much more than just our moods.
它会影响我们的身体机能。
It affects our bodies.
还会影响我们寿命的长短，以及生活质量的高低。
It affects how long we live and how well we live.
根据你刚才说的，其实按常理我们都知道，如果不好好照顾身体健康，可能会危及生命。
Well, based on what you just said, like, think we know common sense wise that if you do not take care of your physical health, it can kill you.
要是忽视心理健康，也会危及生命。
If you do not take care of your mental health, it can kill you.
而你刚才提到的研究表明，长期孤独会对整体健康造成毁灭性的打击，也就是说如果不重视社会健康，它同样会夺走生命。
And what you are saying is that if you do not take care of your social health, it can kill you based on the research that's come out about loneliness and how devastating it is to your overall well-being.
这个道理很直白，但我还是第一次真正把人际关系或友情当成一项健康支柱，而不是仅仅把它当作获得幸福生活的附属条件。
And so it's clear, but this is the first time I've actually ever thought about relationships or friendships as a pillar of health versus a thing that you need to have a happy life.
你能理解我说的吧？完全没错。
Does that make Absolutely.
哇，这太意外了。
Wow.
所以我们面向三千万粉丝发起了一个小型调查研究。
So, we went out to 30,000,000 followers and conducted our own little kind of research project.
看到一些回复的时候，我完全被惊到了。
And I was absolutely startled by some of the responses.
接下来我们就聊聊很多网友在网上分享的真实想法。
And what we're going to talk about is what a lot of people are saying online.
而且，不管你现在是在听节目还是看直播，说不定你自己就回答过这些问题。
And, you know, as you're listening or watching, you maybe even answered some of these questions.
在我们的受访者里，有86%的人都想要更深厚、更亲密的友谊。
86% of the people that we asked want deeper, closer friendships.
接下来我们问了另一个问题：你觉得成年人交新朋友难不难？
Now, when we asked, is it hard or is it not hard for you to make new friends as an adult?
有79%的人都表示，成年人想要交朋友实在太难了。
79% of people said it was very hard to make friends as an adult.
我讲这些是因为，如果你正感到孤独，或是觉得成年之后交朋友很难，甚至纳闷自己之前的朋友怎么都不见了，
And I share that because if you're feeling lonely or if you feel like it's hard for you to make friends as an adult, or you're wondering where the hell did all my friends go?
你并不是唯一一个有这种感受的人。
You're not alone.
很多人都希望能交到更合拍的朋友，也都因为成年后交朋友太难，而充满挫败感，深陷孤独之中。
There's this shared desire to have better friends, and there's this shared frustration and loneliness about how hard it is to make new friends as an adult.
不过接下来我想问问你关于这件事的看法。
But here's what I wanna ask you about.
现在网上到处都在说什么要守护自己的内心平和，说的都是些废话。
There is so much crap online right now about protecting my peace.
天天把“我要守护自己的平和”挂在嘴边，还说这就是自己没时间交朋友的理由。
I gotta protect my peace, And that's why I don't have time for friendship.
你说是不是这个理？
Right?
接下来我想问问大家。
And here's what I wanna ask you.
到底什么才算真正守住自己的内心平静，什么又是为了回避社交而找的借口——那种借口只会让你越来越孤单。
What is the difference between protecting your peace and an excuse to disconnect that is leaving you feeling lonely.
这个问题问得太好了。
I love it.
真的很开心你能提到这一点。
I'm so glad that you brought this up.
首先我想说的是，有些情况下，守住自己的内心平静完全是合理的。
The first thing I wanna say is that there are certain circumstances where it's okay to protect your peace.
没错吧？
Right?
保持健康的社交状态，其中一部分就是要设立边界。
Part of being socially healthy is having boundaries.
对的。
Yep.
如果有一段关系确实很不健康，甚至涉及到虐待，那你绝对有必要维持自己的情绪安稳。
And if there is a relationship that is really unhealthy or abusive, then absolutely you should protect your peace.
但这只是特殊情况，
But exception.
并不是常态。
That is not the norm.
我真的很担心，有些人把“守护内心平静”这件事做过了头，最后身边连一个能依靠的人都没有。
And I really worry that people will protect their peace so much that they have no one.
所以我觉得我们得重新理解“守护内心平静”这个说法：如果你想要一段健康的关系，那这段关系难免会有出现矛盾、让人难熬的时候。
And so I think that we need to reframe this idea of protecting our peace around the fact that if you want healthy relationships, they are sometimes going to be difficult.
人和人之间的相处本来就磕磕绊绊的。
Human connection is messy.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得我们得先从自己身上找问题。
Like, we I think we need to call out ourselves.
我是这么想的。
And here's what I'm gonna say.
我问过三千万人一个问题：你会不会因为更想一个人待在家里，就取消原定的计划？
I asked 30,000,000 people, Do you find yourself canceling plans because you'd rather stay home and be alone?
结果有73%的人诚实地回答说，是的，我会取消和朋友的约会。
And 73% of you were honest and said, Yep, I cancel plans with friends.
我会推掉和同事的见面安排，就因为我更想待在家里一个人待着。
I cancel plans to see colleagues because I would rather stay home and be alone.
之后我又进一步追问：那你取消计划、不愿出门的原因是什么呢？
And then when I went further and said, okay, well, what are the reasons why you cancel plans and you don't go out?
那我先说说我自己的情况。
And I'm gonna tell on myself.
行吧？
Okay?
准备好了吗？
You ready?
这周末我有一群朋友要聚会。
So this weekend, we have a group of friends that are getting together.
那个地方离我和我丈夫家大概有45分钟的路程。
And it's about 45 from where my husband and I live.
他们要在那聚一整天。
And they're getting together all day.
这次一共有七对夫妻参加。
And this is like seven couples.
这么说吧，其中有四对夫妻当初还参加了我们的婚礼。
Now to put this in perspective, four of these couples were at our wedding.
这些朋友我们已经认识三十年了。
So these are friends that we have had for thirty years.
他们都是我最在意的几个人。
These are some of my favorite people.
我刚忙完整整一周的工作，马上又要赶去忙别的工作了。
And I am coming off a big work week and then I am leaving for more work.
虽然他们每个人我都很喜欢，甚至是深爱，但我已经能预感到这次聚会的状态不对。
And I can already feel, even though I like every one of them, I love them.
卡斯利，我也知道去参加聚会对我有好处。
And I know it's good for me, Kasley.
周六早上还有48小时才到，可我已经开始犯嘀咕了：我真的要开车花45分钟过去，到朋友家跟那些我爱的人聊天吗？
I can already feel myself as I'm forty eight hours away from Saturday morning going, Oh, do I really want to get in the car and drive forty five minutes and then go to their house and talk to people that I love?
还是宁愿穿着睡衣休闲裤窝在沙发里，刷五个小时的短视频？
Or would I rather sit in my pajamas and my sweatpants on my couch and spend five hours searching through short form videos?
说实话吧，你根本不会去做你原本计划要做的那些正经事。
Because let's be honest, you're not gonna do the thing that you think you're gonna do.
你只会瘫在那儿，什么都不干。
You're gonna sit on your rear end and do nothing.
总会有各种状况，累了啊、生病啊，总有这样那样的理由。
And there are times where you're tired or you're sick or that you're this and that.
但我自己能感觉到那种心态。
But I can feel it.
那我们为什么还要花精力出门聚会呢？
And so why are we doing this?
这说到底就是精力的问题嘛
Well, it's an energy thing.
对吧？
Right?
偶尔觉得疲惫不堪、精力耗尽也很正常
It's okay to feel exhausted and burned out sometimes
对的
Yes.
就想瘫在沙发上什么都不做，这太正常了。
And to wanna just be on the couch.
没错。
Yes.
梅尔，我有件事要坦白。
I have a confession, Mel.
哎呀，情况不对啊。
Uh-oh.
我是个内向的人。
I am an introvert.
所以我也很喜欢
So I also love
居然是独处啊，说真的我完全没看出来这点。
alone I wouldn't have picked that up at all, by the way.
我确实是。
I am.
我特别享受独处的时间。
I love alone time.
要是有计划取消了，我可太开心了。
I love a canceled plan.
我就喜欢在家宅一晚。
I love a night in.
不过有一点得说一下。
Here's the thing, though.
这得找到一个平衡点
It's a balance.
对吧？
Right?
独处和社交之间得做好平衡
You need to balance your solitude with your socializing.
但实际情况是，哪怕是内向的人，和朋友相处的时光也会比我们预想的更让人开心
And the fact of the matter is that even introverts end up liking the time that they connect with each other more than we think.
之前有个很有趣的研究，跟踪了人们一整周，全天记录他们的对话，每天四次问他们：你今天开心吗？感觉有多被连接？
So there was a really cool study that followed people for a week, recorded their audio conversations all day, asked them four times throughout the day, how happy are you and how connected you feel?
结果发现，人们互动越多，对话越深入，到研究结束时就越开心。
They found that the more interactions people had and the deeper those conversations were, the happier they felt at the end of the study.
不管是外向的人还是内向的人，都是这样。
This was true for extroverts and for introverts.
就连内向的人，也更享受那些更深的交流。
Even the introverts enjoyed more connection and deeper conversations.
所以，这是在邀请你多锻炼一下社交能力，偶尔别总窝在沙发上，主动去抓住那些你觉得自己不太想参与的机会。
So this is an invitation to stretch your social muscles, to get off the couch now and then, to go out and take those opportunities more than you think you want.
偶尔放松、独处没问题，但别忘了，多出去和人连接，比你想象的更重要。
It's okay to relax and have solitude sometimes, but go out and connect more often than you think.
我讲这个故事，是因为我想让大家明白：就算你明明要去见在乎的人，也特别容易找借口说，‘我实在没心情’。
And I'm just telling that story because I wanna normalize the fact that I think even when you're going to see people that you care about, it is so easy to use the excuse, I don't feel like it.
我太累了。
I'm tired.
但我们心里都清楚，出门之后你会开心很多的。
And we all know that you feel better.
忙活了一整天之后，没人会想出门见人，但真的和朋友一起吃顿饭，你反而会觉得更有精神。
Nobody wants to go see somebody after a full day of work and yet you feel more energized after having dinner with a friend.
所以呢，我就做得更彻底了一点，因为之前有73%的人都承认，对，自己会动不动就取消计划，不是真的出了什么事。
And so, you know, I went a step further because after 73% of you admitted, yeah, I find myself canceling plans, not because anything's happened.
就是单纯想待在家里一个人待着。
I'd just rather stay home and be alone.
我当时就琢磨，那你取消计划的原因到底是什么呢？
I thought, okay, well, what is the reason you're canceling plans?
结果呢，你果然没让我“失望”（果然和我想的一样）。
And you did not disappoint.
我的天呐。
Holy smokes.
我手里拿着的这个东西。
I'm holding in my hands.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
这只是前60页听众提交的取消计划的原因和理由。
And this is just the first 60 pages of responses and reasons why people canceled their plans.
接下来我们来做一个练习。
We're gonna go through exercise.
你们听的时候，我会一边讲解，因为卡斯莉面前放着两个玻璃罐子。
And as you're listening, I'm gonna narrate this because in front of Kasley are two glass jars.
一个写着‘借口’，另一个写着‘需求’。
One says, excuse and the other says need.
我们要一起读这些听众的留言，看看他们是怎么解释自己明明觉得孤单、渴望友谊，却还是取消了和朋友的计划的。
And what we're gonna go through is we're gonna go through and read these excuses from listeners of this podcast admitting why they canceled plans on friends, even though they complain they're lonely and they want more friendship in their life.
我们来想想，你是在用借口毁掉自己的社交生活，还是真的有正当理由，需要守住界限。
And let's talk about whether you're creating an excuse that is destroying your social health or this is truly a need and it's important to hold the boundary.
好。
Yeah.
我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
第一个原因是，我特意留了时间陪家人。
Number one, I've carved out time to be with family.
我觉得这个需求合情合理。
I think that's a valid need.
没错。
Yes.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
太喜欢这个环节了。
All love it.
那个
That
理由。
one.
对。
Yeah.
我们也需要多和家人相处联络
We need to connect with our family as well.
我特别支持这点
Love it.
我都没合适的衣服可以穿了
I have nothing to wear.
稍等我一下
Excuse.
我的天呐。
My gosh.
哇哦。
Wow.
我更愿意待在家里追剧。
I would rather stay in and watch a show.
但听咱们刚才聊的，这其实就是个借口而已。
Based on our conversation, that's an excuse.
偶尔这样没问题，但你得更主动地逼自己一把才行。
Sometimes it's okay, but you need to push yourself more often.
我总觉得在他们面前没法做真正的自己。
I feel like I cannot be myself.
那这就说明，你想去见面的那些朋友，根本不是适合你的人。
So that tells me that the friends who you are thinking about going out to spend time with are not the right friends for you.
对不对？
Right?
但宅在家里不也是找借口吗？
But isn't that also an excuse?
你会不会因为一直逃避社交，就没办法做真实的自己了？
Because do you not feel like you can be yourself because you constantly withdraw?
你一直不锻炼自己的社交能力，反而会让你口中所谓的社交焦虑越来越严重，对。
Are you not pushing your social muscles so you don't like, you get like, because I think you can get to a point where your, quote, social anxiety Mhmm.
最后这种焦虑会变成一种惯性，因为你从来没逼自己走出门，学着怎么在人群里坦然做自己。
Becomes a learned behavior because you're not forcing yourself to go out and learn how to feel like yourself.
我觉得刚才那句「我做不了自己」暴露了一个问题，就是人如果长期独处，很容易产生这种自我设限的想法。
I think what this answer reveals, I feel like I cannot be myself, is those limiting beliefs that can happen when we're too isolated.
对。
Yes.
是吧？
Right?
没错。
Yes.
我们在社交场合里总是抱着防备心，因为脑子里一直在想这些有的没的
We go into social situations feeling guarded because we're thinking things like this
对的
Yes.
而不是彻底放开，好好做自己
Rather than just freeing ourselves to actually be yourself.
而且如果那些人是适合和你当朋友的人，他们本来就会喜欢真实的你
And if those people are your people, they will love you for who you are.
说得好。
Great.
那你会把这个归到哪一类呢？
So where would you put that?
我觉得你得
So I'm gonna say that You're
把它一分为二，把两者都放进去。
gonna rip it in half and put them both.
如果一定要让我选的话，我会把它归为一种需求，就是带着我们之前聊过的那些复杂前提的需求。
If I have to choose, I'll put it as a need with the nuances that we've talked about.
我宁愿待在家里陪我的宠物。
I'd rather be with my pet.
哦，这话说的，我也是这么想的。
Oh, well, so would I.
但那只是逃避现实的借口而已。
But that's Excuse.
我现在就是想偷懒。
I'm feeling lazy.
这同样也是借口。
Also an excuse.
当然了，照顾好自己的需求肯定是没错的，但总的来说这还是个借口。
Of course, you know, you need to take care of your own needs, but generally excuse.
我没钱跟朋友出去聚会。
I don't have the funds to go out with friends.
这个理由站不住脚
This is a great one.
没错
Yes.
这纯粹是借口，毕竟和别人相处根本花不了多少钱
This is an excuse because it does not have to be expensive to spend time with other people.
你大可以去别人家里见面
You can go to someone's house.
也可以去公园逛一逛。
You can go to a park.
可以多想想那些不用花钱或者花很少钱就能和朋友聚一聚的办法。
Think about ways that are free or inexpensive to spend time with each other.
根本没必要花很多钱的。
It does not have to cost a lot of money.
你说这话我就放心了，我刚才还以为你会说，约朋友出门是个必须要满足的需求呢。
I'm glad you said that because I thought you were gonna say this is a need.
比如，要是你付不起高档餐厅的钱，拒绝这个邀约倒还说得过去
Like, it's one thing not to agree to go out to some fancy dinner that you can't afford.
没错
Sure.
但别把没钱当成借口，既不去做别的安排，也不说一句“这个我确实承担不起，但我还是想见你”
But don't let it become an excuse to not make different plans or to not say, hey, I just can't afford that, but I still wanna see you.
对的
For sure.
没错。
Absolutely.
我整个人都快被掏空了，累得不行。
I am completely run down and burnt out.
这种话我听得太多了。
I hear this a lot.
我觉得现在很多人都压力太大、精疲力尽，已经影响到他们的社交生活了。
I think that people are so overwhelmed and burnt out that it is getting in the way of their social health.
他们连交朋友的力气都没有了，更别提维系关系了。
It is preventing them from developing friendships and having the energy to connect.
所以我特别能理解这种状态。
And so I have a lot of compassion for it.
但问题是，
But here's the thing.
真正支持你的朋友，反而可能是让你不再感到疲惫的那剂良药。
Supportive friendships might be the very thing that stop you from feeling burned out and exhausted.
是不是？
Right?
我们都清楚，积极的人际联结能给我们重新注入能量。
We know that positive connection reenergizes us.
它是我们恢复力的来源。
It's a source of resilience.
还能给我们带来快乐和人生的意义感。
It brings us joy and purpose.
所以说，当你觉得精力耗尽的时候，朋友的支持恰恰是你最需要的。
So actually, that is the exact thing that you need when you are feeling burned out.
那我先
Now let me
先确认一下我跟上你的思路了，这个点真的很重要。之前我看过几百页大家取消聚会、没法见朋友的借口和理由，出现次数最多的就是“我太累了”。
just make sure I am tracking because I think this is very important because when I went through the hundreds of pages of excuses and reasons why you are canceling plans and can't see friends, the biggest one was I'm tired.
这点我也完全能理解。
And I get that too.
说实话，我刚才都承认了，一想到周六要出门去见我喜欢的人，我现在就已经觉得累了。
I mean, I just admitted that I'm already feeling tired thinking about leaving the house on Saturday to see people I love.
但我希望所有人都能从这些研究和你刚才的话里明白：除非你是医学层面的精疲力竭，必须得通过睡觉休息来恢复健康——这当然是必须的——否则你刚才说的是，如果你只是因为工作累，或者照顾家人累到撑不住，就想逃避社交，那社交联结恰恰就是对症的解药。
But what I wanna make sure that we all took away from the research and what you just said is that unless you are in a state of medical burnout and you need to be sleeping and resting for your health, which is a need, you're saying that the thing that you're avoiding because you feel tired from work or burnt out from caregiving, that social connection is the exact anecdote.
就是能帮你重新振作起来的那剂良药。
Like it's the exact medicine you need in order to lift yourself back up.
这个道理其实特别反直觉。
In fact, it's so counterintuitive.
确实是这样
It is
这和直觉不太一样，但却很有意义
counterintuitive, but it's beautiful.
我特别认同这个观点
I love it.
我很喜欢这个说法：当你过得不顺、觉得生活压得你喘不过气、整个人疲惫不堪的时候，和你在乎的人相处，恰恰是我们人生的意义所在
I love the idea that when you are going through a difficult time and life feels overwhelming and you are exhausted, the very purpose of our lives is to spend time with people we care about.
对吧？
Right?
如果最后都不能陪在自己爱的人身边，那我们累死累活地打拼到底是为了什么呢？
What are we burned out and working so hard for if not to then be able to spend time with the people we love?
没错。
Yeah.
所以这个目标既是我们撑过那段难熬日子的原因，本身也是帮我们熬过去的方法。
And so that purpose is the reason to get through that hard time, and it's the way to get through that hard time.
太妙了。
Amazing.
谢谢你把这点讲清楚，因为疲惫和 burnout（职业倦怠）是我在所有人的回复里看到最多的问题。
Thank you for unpacking that one because being tired and burnt out is the single most frequent thing I saw in everybody's responses.
这也是我被问到最多的问题之一。
And it's one of the most common questions I get as well.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们得说，这要么是一种需求，要么是个借口。
So we are going to say that that's a need or an excuse.
借口。
Excuse.
很高兴你能来。
I am so glad that you're here.
这个话题真的太重要了。
This is such an important topic.
我特别欣赏你的研究，它让这件事的重要性凸显了出来。
And what I love about your research is how it elevates the importance of this.
我还有好多问题想问，但得先暂停一下，让我们的赞助商说几句话。
And I just have so many more questions, but I wanna hit the pause button because I've gotta give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words.
你听着，我想跟你聊聊。
And you, let me talk to you as you're listening.
希望你能把这期节目分享给所有你想到的人。
I wanna give you a chance to share this episode with everybody that's popping in your mind.
你可以直接复制链接，发给朋友，说：我刚听了这个播客，立马就想到了你，挺想你的。
I mean, you could just copy and paste the link and text it to a friend and say, I was just listening to this podcast episode, and I immediately thought of you, and I miss you.
里面有很多超棒的建议和方法，能帮你更亲近、沟通更好、感觉更紧密。我知道你发给谁，对方都会觉得这是你送的一份礼物，反而会让你们更亲近。
There are so many incredible tips and tools on how to be closer, communicate better, feel more connected, And I know anybody that you send this to is gonna see this as a gift that you just gave them, and it's gonna bring you closer.
别走开。
Don't go anywhere.
马上回来。
We'll be right back.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友，梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend, Mel Robbins.
今天我们请到了哈佛训练的社会科学家凯斯莉·基勒姆，她会帮我们建立更好的关系、成年后的友谊，聊聊社交健康有多重要。
You and I are here with Kasley Killam, a Harvard trained social scientist, and she's here helping us build better relationships, adult friendships, and we're talking about the importance of your social health.
好的。
Okay.
那接下来还有什么借口？
What's the next excuse?
我现在不喝酒了，感觉我和朋友聚在一起就只会喝酒。
I am not drinking and feel like all we do is drink together.
这个理由确实说得通。
So that's fair.
不过你其实没必要为了配合他们喝酒的。
You don't have to drink, though.
是吧？
Right?
所以我把这种情况归到「找个合理借口」这一类里，哪怕你的朋友都在喝酒，你也完全可以不喝。
So I'm gonna put it under excuse because even if your friends are all drinking, you don't have to.
比如说借口，
Excuse.
「我的社交电量已经耗尽了」。
My social battery is drained.
我特别能理解这点，因为我自己就是内向的人，社交电量也经常耗尽，所以对这种感受特别有共鸣。
I love this because as an introvert myself, my own social battery gets drained, and so I very much sympathize.
人确实需要一定的独处时间。
You do need a certain amount of alone time.
这是很健康的状态。
That's healthy.
但话说回来，凡事都得讲究平衡。
But again, it's a balance.
所以我觉得会把这个归为「实际需求」，但也要明白，有时候我们会拿它当借口，但其实和别人接触对我们自己是有好处的。
And so I would say, I'm gonna put this in need, but also understanding that sometimes we can use it as an excuse when in fact we would benefit from connection.
我更想多陪陪家人。
I'd rather be with family.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
我觉得得看情况。我现在慢慢理清借口和实际需求的区别了：你得自己能分辨出哪些是自欺欺人的说辞。
I think it depends on and what I'm starting to gather from excuse versus need is you have to be your own BS detector.
因为如果你很久没见家人了，比如我孩子回家的时候，我和我丈夫都是空巢老人，我更愿意和家人待在一起，毕竟我平时见不到孩子几次。
Because if you haven't seen your family, like for example, when my kids come home, my husband and I are empty nesters, I would rather be with family because I don't see my kids all that often.
他们在家的时候，我想陪在他们身边。
And I want to be there with them while they're home.
不过，如果你说‘我更想和家人待着’，是因为你觉得他们比朋友更合得来，或者和家人在一起让你感觉更自在，又或者你觉得当大人交朋友太难，不如躲在家里——那这就成借口了。
That said, if you're saying I'd rather be with family because I just like them more than any of my friends, and I'd rather be with family because I feel more like myself, and I'd rather be with family because it's easier than putting myself out there and building friendships as an adult, that's an excuse.
我完全同意。
Completely agree.
没错。
Yep.
和家人相处当然很合理，但有时候这也会变成借口，让我们逃避了和朋友相处的机会。
It's very valid to spend time with family, but it can be an excuse where we're not spending time with friends instead.
你听这叮叮当当的声音，从视觉上看，现在有两张卡片都标着‘需求’，而‘借口’这一堆已经越堆越高了。
You know, as you're hearing the clink, clink, clink, clink, what's happening visually is there's, like, two needs, two cards that are needs, and the excuse thing is just starting to pile high here.
接下来呢？
What's next?
哦，这个是
Oh, this is
个好例子。
a good one.
我得去洗衣服了。
I have to do laundry.
典型的借口。
Excuse.
这绝对是个借口。
Major excuse.
你可以把内衣翻过来穿，或者干脆不穿内衣直接出门。
You can turn the underwear inside or out or and go or go commando.
是吧？
Right?
我有社交焦虑症。
I have social anxiety.
这个理由说得好。
This is a good one.
我喜欢这个说法，毕竟很多人都有社交焦虑。
I like this because a lot of people have social anxiety.
说实话，确实是这样。
To be honest, yes.
但会不会有人只是随便把自己的情况套上这个名头？毕竟临床上确诊的社交焦虑，和那种只是从家里去到新环境就感到尴尬、别扭、紧张，就给自己贴上社交焦虑的标签，这两者不是一回事吧？
Or do they just say they have social like, because isn't there a diagnosis of having clinical social anxiety versus I'm gonna label the awkwardness, the cringe, and the nervousness that I feel having to shift from going from my house to a new setting as social anxiety?
社交焦虑本来就是分不同程度的。
It's definitely a spectrum.
你说的这点太对了。
You're absolutely right about that.
但我不管是旅行、参加活动，还是和世界各地的人聊天，我一直都很惊讶，原来大家心里竟然都藏着这么多脆弱的想法，还有对自己的负面认知，没错，真的很多。
But I have been shocked in all my travels, all the events I do, all the conversations I have with people around the world by how often people carry around these vulnerabilities and these beliefs about themselves Mhmm.
这些想法都会让他们在社交里感到焦虑不安。
That make them feel socially anxious.
是吧？
Right?
这种情况真的太普遍了。
This is incredibly common.
那我们得先承认，会产生焦虑情绪是很正常的，对的。
So let's validate that having anxious feelings Mhmm.
在社交场合里感到不自在，这种感受不仅十分普遍、完全合理，还可能带来很大的困扰，没错。
About putting yourself in social settings is an incredibly common and valid and can be a really challenging thing Yes.
需要自己消化处理的情绪。
To deal with.
所以如果你现在正被这类问题困扰，我绝对不是在评判你。
And so if you are dealing with this in your life, I do not want you to hear judgment.
我只是想让你知道，你的感受是完全合理的。
I want you to hear validation.
对的。
Mhmm.
那我来分享两个研究，帮大家彻底打消这个顾虑。
So let me share two studies that will totally dispel this for people.
第一个研究里，研究人员把两个互不认识的人凑成一组。
So in the first study, researchers paired up two strangers.
让他们先聊几分钟，之后分开两人，分别问他们两个问题：你有多喜欢刚才和你聊天的人？你觉得那个人有多喜欢你？
They had a conversation for a few minutes, and then they separated the strangers and they asked them individually, how much did you like that person and how much do you think that person liked you?
哦。
Oh.
之后他们就比对了两组结果。
And then they compared the results.
好的。
Okay.
结果他们发现，人们总是会低估对方对自己的好感度。
What they found is that people consistently underestimate how much the other person likes them.
当时还有一个旁观者全程参与对话的观察，给双方的好感度打分，这个旁观者的判断就完全准确。
They also had an external person who watched the conversations and rated how much each other liked them, and they got it right.
也就是说，和别人打交道的时候，我们总会误以为对方对我们的好感，其实远低于他们真实的想法。
So what this means is that when we are in an interaction, we're thinking the other person doesn't like us as much as they actually do.
哪怕在外人眼里，我们明明聊得特别投机，都能看得出来。
When even to an outside person, it's obvious that we are hitting it off.
这个研究正好说明，我们自己的固有想法、社交焦虑还有不安全感，都会阻碍我们和别人建立真正有意义的联结。
So this is a case in point of our own beliefs, our own social anxiety, our own insecurities getting in the way of actually having a meaningful connection.
以上就是第一个研究的内容。
So that's the first study.
第二个研究里，研究人员让大家给认识的人写表达感谢和善意的便签，就是很友好的那种小纸条。
The second is a study where they had people send notes of appreciation and kind notes, just friendly notes to people they know.
对方可以是亲密的家人伴侣。
It could have been a close loved one.
也可以是只是点头之交的普通朋友。
It could have been a casual acquaintance.
没错。
Yep.
发条消息说：我刚想到你。
Send a text saying, I'm thinking about you.
发封邮件说：我知道你现在挺难的。
Send an email saying, I know you're going through a hard time.
就是想让你知道，我一直在你身边。
Just wanted to let you know I'm there for you.
他们发现，人们总是低估了对方收到消息时的感动程度。
Again, what they found is that people consistently underestimated how much that person would appreciate hearing from them.
这些研究告诉我们，别人其实比我们以为的更喜欢我们，也更期待和我们联系。
So here we have these studies showing us that people like us more than we think and appreciate hearing from us more than we think.
光是这一点，就足以让我们克服那份脆弱、不安和社交焦虑，勇敢地迈出一步。
That is reason enough to override that vulnerability, that insecurity, that social anxiety that you're feeling, and go for it.
去建立联系吧。
Go for the connection.
因为很可能，别人对你的喜欢超乎你的想象，他们也比你想象的更珍视和你的连接。
Because chances are people like you more than you think, and they're going to appreciate connecting with you more than you think.
所以如果有人不肯出门，理由是想到社交场合就会感到焦虑，对吧？
So if somebody's reason for not going out is I feel anxious when I think about going to social situations Mhmm.
这是借口，还是真实的需求？
Is that an excuse or a need?
这确实是个合理的借口。
It's a valid excuse.
没错吧？
Right?
这确实是个借口。
It's an excuse.
这是真实存在的感受。
It's real.
但它不该成为你不出门的理由，
It shouldn't stop you from going,
但这种感觉非常真实，也非常正常。
but that feeling is very valid and very normal.
所以你对进入社交场合所产生的焦虑感
So you the feeling of anxiety
是的。
Mhmm.
是完全合理的。
About putting yourself in a social situation is valid.
没错。
Absolutely.
但这其实是个借口，因为根据医学专家的说法，
But it's an excuse because based on what the medical experts say Mhmm.
你得去做那些让你紧张的事，不然焦虑会越来越强，生活也会越来越窄。
You need to do the thing that you feel nervous about or else those anxious feelings get bigger and bigger and your life gets smaller and smaller.
研究结果也是这样显示的吗？
Is that what you're finding in the research?
没错，研究正是这么发现的。
That's what we're finding.
我们发现，只要你愿意走出去，事情往往比你想象的要顺利得多。
We're finding that when you put yourself out there, chances are it's going to go better than you think.
不是每次都会这样，但有时候，甚至大多数时候都是如此。
Not every time, but some of the times, maybe even most of the times.
付出这样的努力是值得的。
And it's worth putting in that effort.
对吧？
Right?
值得去锻炼自己的社交能力，去尝试一下。
It's worth exercising your social muscles and trying.
因为你永远不知道，明天你会遇见谁，谁会成为你一年后无法想象没有他的那个人，而今天你甚至还没见过他。
Because you never know who you're going to meet, who you are going to not be able to imagine your life without one year from now, who you haven't even met yet today.
所以，这份风险是值得冒的。
So it's it's worth the risk.
我同意。
I agree.
行。
Okay.
那这个说法你怎么看？
How about this one?
我需要留一些时间给自己。
I need me time.
其实所有人都需要有专属自己的独处时间。
So we all need some me time.
我绝对是支持这种做法的
I advocate for that for sure.
但这能成为你周末不去跟朋友们聚会的理由吗？
But is that a reason to not go out with your friends who are all getting together this weekend?
我的答案是不能。
I'm gonna say no.
这纯粹是个借口。
It's an excuse.
你一直听到叮叮叮的声音，真正深刻的是，借口越堆越高，都快溢出罐子了。
What's profound as you keep hearing ting ting ting is that the excuses are stacking up and reaching the top of the jar.
其实我觉得这是个好消息。
I think this is good news, actually.
借口这么多，恰恰说明情况在好转。
I think it's good news that there are so many excuses.
好吧。
Okay.
因为现在每个听节目的人都明白，这些理由根本站不住脚。
Because now every single one of you listening knows that's not good enough.
对吧？
Right?
以后你脑子里会响起梅尔和我的声音，告诉你：这不过是借口。
You're gonna hear Mel and my voice in your head saying that's an excuse.
出去和朋友聚聚吧。
Go out and connect.
那还有哪些其他的借口呢？
So what are some of the other excuses?
嗯，是这样。
Okay.
从来没人反过来问我问题。
I never get asked questions back.
真让人烦。
It's annoying.
没错。
Yeah.
确实烦人。
Annoying.
我同意你的说法。
I agree with you.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
这只是一个借口。
It's an excuse.
但你确实需要结识新朋友。
But you need new friends.
对吧？
Right?
这既是借口，也是需求。
That's an excuse and a need.
你用这个借口不去，但其实你就是需要新朋友。
It's an excuse that you're using not to go, but you need new friends.
我会把它归为需求，因为确实如此。
I'm gonna put it under need because exactly.
你需要一些能互相来往的朋友。
You need some friends where the exchange is mutual.
对吧？
Right?
这些朋友会倾听你，也会和你分享，彼此付出、互相迁就，必须是这样双向的交往才行。
Where they listen as much as they talk, where they give and take, it has to be that mutual exchange.
所以呢，
So
不知道正在听节目的观众有没有发现这一点，我观察到的是，那些借口大多都和你自身的感受挂钩。
what I'm noticing, and I don't know if you're picking up on this as you're listening or watching, is that the excuses are a lot about how you feel.
而每一次你提到「需要」的时候，基本都是因为你意识到，你准备去见的那些人其实根本不会给你支持。这件事触发了你内心更深层的渴望——你必须花时间、花精力去经营真正能给你支持的人际关系，这才是那份「需要」的本质。
Every time you've said need, it's typically been because you're recognizing that the people that you're about to go see are not really supportive And that is triggering something deeper, which is the need is to recognize that you've got to put time and energy into building supportive relationships.
而且你现在要去见的那些人，可能和你当下的状态真的不合拍，这其实没什么大不了的。
And maybe the people that you're about to go see are not truly a match for where you are right now, and that's okay.
有意思。
Interesting.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得所有这些问题的核心是，从根本上来说，作为人类，我们都需要被真正看见、被真正听见。
I think at the heart of all of this is that fundamentally as humans, we need to feel like we are seen and heard.
没错。
Yes.
希望别人能接受真实的自己。
Like we are accepted for who we are.
希望别人能爱着原本的自己。
Like we are loved for who we are.
对的。
Yes.
没错吧？
Right?
我们每个人都有这种最基本的需求。
Every single one of us has that fundamental need.
所以如果在你经历的大量人际互动和关系里，都没办法展现真实的自己，那这段关系自然会让你觉得格外空虚。
And so if you're having too many interactions and relationships where your authentic part can actually come through, of course, that's going to feel more hollow.
哪怕你身处在派对的拥挤人潮里，如果你没办法从更深的层面被他人理解、共情，你还是会感到无比孤独。
You can be around people in a crowded room at a party and feel incredibly lonely if you're not seen and felt in deeper ways.
如果你正经历这种处境，我想对你说几句话。
And here's what I want to say if that's happening to you.
首先，我很佩服你愿意主动走出去社交的这份勇气。
First of all, I'm proud of you for getting out there.
这种感受真的不好受。
And that's not a fun thing to feel.
我儿子刚上大学的那一年半，就有过一模一样的感受。
Our son has felt that like the first year and a half at college.
如果你一次次主动走出去社交，却始终找不到能真正交心的人，这种感觉真的不好受。
It's not fun to feel like you're putting yourself out there and you're putting yourself out there, but you're not finding people that you truly connect with.
但关键是，你越是主动走出去，遇到同频的人的概率就越高。
And what's important, though, is that the more you put yourself out there, the more likely you are going to meet people.
我之前有一年半的时间里，只想把自己封闭起来，每天都觉得特别孤单，哪怕身在人群里，只会在心里嘀咕，我又不喝酒，跟这群人合不来。
And after a year and a half of just wanting to isolate and feeling very lonely and being in crowded rooms and being like, I don't drink.
大学里那么多人，我到底能不能找到真正属于自己的圈子啊？
Why are all these people am I ever gonna find my people in college?
这样熬了一年半之后，他这个周末带了九个朋友回家，终于找到合得来的圈子了。
After a year and a half of this, he just came home for the weekend with nine guys, like, and found his people.
但要是他当初找借口闭门不出，把自己的生活圈缩得极小，这件事根本就不可能发生。
But if he had made excuse and isolated and made his life small, that never would have happened.
不过这确实需要时间。
But it takes time.
所以如果你还在坚持这么做的话，我想先肯定你的付出——你已经在很努力了，你一定会找到那群志同道合的人的。
And so I want to acknowledge you if you keep doing that because you're doing the work and you will find those people.
完全没错。
Absolutely.
这需要一直付出努力才行。
It takes persistent effort.
对吧？
Right?
那你还有什么其他顾虑吗？
So what other excuses you got?
我下班后很累。
I'm tired after work.
我也觉得，下班之后整个人都累瘫了。
I am tired after work, Me too.
好的。
Okay.
而且有时候，好好休息是完全没问题的。
And sometimes it's okay to rest.
没错。
Yes.
但有时候你得主动走出去才行。
But sometimes you gotta get out there.
咱们都坦诚点，你自己想想——有多少次
How many times have you let's be honest with each other.
忙了一整天的工作，
You've been at work all day.
明明五点半或者六点就能下班，还可以去跟朋友一起吃晚饭。
You can leave at 05:30 or six and go meet your friend for dinner.
对。
Mhmm.
结果你却撒谎推掉了约，说单位里临时有事走不开。
And you cancel and lie because you say something came up at work.
谁都干过这种事。
We've all done it.
我们所有人都这样，我自己也不例外，真的。
Every single one of us, myself included, for sure.
没错。
For sure.
而且这种情况偶尔出现也没关系。
And it's okay sometimes.
我的意思是，至少别骗自己就好。
I mean, maybe don't lie.
我觉得你可以对朋友坦诚一点。
I think you can be honest with your friends.
我不喜欢你。
I don't like you.
我不想出门。
I don't wanna come out.
不行。
No.
我只是...
I'm just
开玩笑的。
kidding.
你就说你累坏了。
Say I'm exhausted.
我今天简直忙疯了。
I had a crazy day.
我觉得偶尔这样也完全没问题的。
I think it's okay sometimes.
你说是不是？
Right?
我就是想把这层意思讲清楚。
I do wanna bring that nuance to this.
不是说不管什么情况都得逼自己出门硬扛的。
It's not always push yourself and get out the door.
没错。
Yes.
但要是总拿这个当借口的话，你要怎么交朋友呢？
But when we're falling back on that as an excuse all of the time, how are you going to make friends?
总不能一直不接触别人吧？
How are you going to meet people?
你总得主动迈出一步，多参与社交才行。
You have to put yourself out there to some extent.
那这到底是借口，还是真的需要呢？
So is it an excuse or a need?
很多情况我觉得两者都沾边，但我还是把它归为借口。
So many of these I kind of wanna put in both, but I'm gonna put it in excuse.
我给自己定了一条规矩，因为我的工作是这家公司的CEO，事情总是堆得满满的。这条规矩就是：如果我要推迟或取消计划，除非我同时提出了一个新的具体日期，否则就不允许这么做。
Here's one rule I wanna share that I've made with myself because I do have the kind of job as the CEO of a company this size that lots of stuff piles up, that I have a rule with myself that if I have to push something off or cancel plans, I'm not allowed to do it unless I have an alternative date that I am suggesting to move it to.
这规矩真好。
I love that.
下一条是什么？
What's the next one in the stack?
我压力很大。
I am stressed.
我也是。
I am too.
我觉得这还是个借口。
I'm gonna say it's an excuse.
好的。
Okay.
首先我先完全抱着共情的态度说啊。
Now With full compassion.
卡斯利，你是这方面的研究员，不好意思打断你，但我实在对这个话题太感兴趣了，有一大堆问题想问你。
Kasley, you're the researcher, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm so excited about this topic, and I have so many questions.
而且你开创了这个专门研究社交健康的领域，社交健康本来就是能让人生过得充实的重要支柱啊。
And because you are pioneering this whole focus on social health, it's a pillar of a fulfilling life.
对的。
Mhmm.
你给大家讲讲啊，是这样吧。
Can you explain to us Mhmm.
为什么压力大的时候反倒会这样？没错。
Why in moments of stress Yes.
可正是这种人际交往、维系友谊、哪怕压力再大也抽出时间和朋友见面的付出，才是你的身心和生活真正需要的东西啊。
That connection, friendship, seeing a friend and making the effort even when you're stressed is exactly what your body and your brain and your life needs?
关于这一点，研究有什么发现？
What does the research say about this?
当然。
Sure.
确实有一个理论叫作压力缓冲假说。
There's literally a theory called stress buffering hypothesis.
这个理论认为，当我们和他人在一起时，能减轻压力对身体的影响。
This is the idea that when we are with other people, it buffers the effects of stress in our body.
也就是说，当你经历压力时，原本会释放皮质醇、让你长期处于紧张状态，进而引发炎症、增加患病风险，但人际连接能缓解这种反应。
So rather than whatever the stress you're going through, releasing cortisol and keeping you in this heightened state, which increases inflammation and makes you more susceptible to diseases, it buffers against that.
它能从根本上平息这种生理反应，让你之后感觉没那么有压力。
It quells that biological process entirely so that you are actually going to be less stressed out afterwards.
没错，确实如此。
Well, it's true.
社交健康这个支柱，能强化心理健康和身体健康这两个支柱。
The social health pillar reinforces the mental health pillar and the physical health pillar.
这几者是环环相扣的。
They are all connected.
所以如果在社交健康上投入精力，也会对你的心理健康有好处。
So when you invest in your social health, it also has benefits for your mental health.
是吧？
Right?
你的压力也会变小。
You are going to be less stressed.
你的抗压能力会变得更强。
You're gonna be able to be more resilient.
你会觉得自己一定能熬过去那些艰难的日子。
You're gonna feel like you can get through those hard times.
我写书的时候采访过一位照顾者，她当时要照顾患癌症的父亲，后来父亲不幸离世了。
I interviewed a caregiver for my book who talked about caregiving for her dad as he was going through cancer and actually unfortunately passed away.
她本身就是护士，所以对照顾人的工作早就习惯了。
And she was a nurse, so she was really used to caregiving.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
那是她每天都要面对的事。
That was part of her every day.
虽然能照顾父亲、陪在他身边这段时光特别有意义，但也真的非常艰难。
And while that time was incredibly meaningful, getting to care for her dad, to be with him, it was also really hard.
她感到很孤立。
It was isolating.
她觉得自己特别孤单。
She felt very alone.
她感到精疲力尽。
She felt exhausted.
对吧？
Right?
这对她的心理健康造成了很大影响。
And it affected her mental health in a big way.
她提到，有一段时间她甚至有自杀的念头，因为孤独和悲痛压得她喘不过气。
She shared that she was even suicidal at one point because she was so overwhelmed with the loneliness and the grief of that time period.
后来，她加入了这个项目，被匹配到其他照顾者，大家只是聊聊各自的经历。
And then she connected to this program that matched her with other caregivers for conversations to just talk about what they were going through.
这彻底救了她的命。
And it completely saved her life.
她这才意识到，原来我并不是一个人在扛。
It made her realize, wow, first of all, I'm not alone.
能和其他照顾者一起倾诉，感受到这样的支持，真的让人感到无比温暖。
And the support that I'm getting from knowing there are other caregivers being able to talk about this together, it feels incredible.
她告诉我，她后悔没有早点向家人和朋友敞开心扉。
And what she told me was that she wished she had opened up to more of her family and friends about it as well.
因为她后来明白，其实他们本也可以成为她的支持力量，但她总觉得必须一个人硬撑。
Because she realized they could have been that source of support too, but she felt like she had to go through it alone.
卡斯利，谢谢你分享这个故事。我想把话题稍微拓展一下，一直以来我们都在说，人们总找各种借口不去见朋友、懒得付出精力维护关系，不肯去读书聚会，下班之后也不愿参加各种社交活动，最后反而把自己的生活圈子越缩越小，变得越来越孤独，彻底和外界隔离开来。
Kasley, thank you for telling us that story because I wanna broaden it out a little bit because while we've been focusing on the excuses that we use to not see the friend, to not, you know, make the effort, to not show up at the book club, to not do that thing after work, which then makes our life feel small, which makes us feel lonelier, which makes us become more isolated.
可我们还会找借口，连悲伤心理咨询都不肯去。
We also create excuses to not get grief counseling.
还有那种为护理人员或者幼儿家长举办的线上交流会，我们也会编各种理由不去参加。
We also create excuses to not go to that Zoom meeting for caregivers or other parents of young kids.
其实生活里到处都有这样的机会，大家都可以先问问自己：我是不是又在找借口逃避了？
And so there are opportunities everywhere and you can go through this, okay, well, am I making an excuse?
我真正需要的到底是什么？
What do I actually need?
而你的研究反复告诉我们，人最需要的是健康的社交状态。
And over and over again, your research is saying what you need is you need social health.
这种社交状态会同时影响一个人的心理健康和身体健康。
That this impacts mental health and physical health.
这根本不是什么可有可无的东西。
This isn't a nice to have.
这是必须要做的事。
This is a requirement.
你之所以会陷入困境，其中一个原因就是你只顾着忙其他事，却把这件重要的事搁置了。
And one of the reasons why you may be struggling is because you've focused on other things, but you've let this go.
对的。
Mhmm.
完全没错。
Absolutely.
这个例子太精彩了。
Amazing example.
走出孤独状态最好的方法之一，就是找到一群和你有相同经历的人。
One of the best ways to get out of that lonely state is to find groups of people who are going through what you're going through.
这种支持感能帮你顺利渡过人生的这段变化，还能为你提供所有人都需要的日常互动。
It's a sense of support that's gonna help you navigate that change and also provide that ongoing interaction that we all need.
我发现这里面又攒了一大堆借口。
I see more excuses piled up there.
我们已经列了25个了。
We got 25.
还有什么别的内容？
What else we got?
好的。
Alright.
我们一个个来过一遍。
Let's go through them.
我没什么自信，一直觉得自己很糟糕。
I don't feel confident and have been feeling ugly.
是的。
Yeah.
其实我特别能理解这种感受。
I mean, I have a lot of compassion for that.
对吧？
Right?
这种感受太真实了。
Like that is very real.
不管是对什么事感到不安，不管这件事能不能被别人察觉，那种滋味真的特别难熬。
Feeling insecure about anything, something that's visible to other people or not, is really, really hard.
所以我特别能理解这种心情。
So I have a lot of compassion for this.
但与此同时，我也希望你能再逼自己一把。
And also, I want you to still push yourself.
对不对？
Right?
而且我知道这种感受很难熬。
And I know it's hard.
这就像你停练了很久之后，第一次重新去健身一样。
It's like when you work out for the first time after a long time of not having worked out.
那次健身会特别难熬，你去了健身房，只觉得整个人都快要撑不住了。
And it's so hard that workout, you go to the gym, you just feel like you're dead.
对吧？
Right?
刚开始几次，可能不会太顺利。
The first few times, it might not go well.
出去见人的时候，可能会特别难熬。
It might be really hard when you go out and see people.
但还是值得坚持下去，慢慢建立起自信。
But it is still worth pushing through that and building up the confidence.
真正懂你的人，根本不会在意你长什么样。
The people who are your people aren't gonna care how you look.
对吧？
Right?
就算你状态不好，他们也照样爱你。
They're gonna love you even when you're not feeling your best.
这才是我们该追求的关系。
And that's what we should be looking for.
要找的就是那种可以坦诚相对的朋友，能直接跟他们说我今天状态糟透了。
We should be looking for the friends who we can be honest and say, I feel like crap.
我觉得自己很难看。
I feel ugly.
而且我最近一直特别没有安全感。
And I'm feeling really insecure lately.
这就是我正在经历的处境。
And that's what I'm going through.
让他们陪着你度过这段日子。
And let them support you through that.
我身边就有这么一个人，她之前长了很严重的激素痘，总因为这个推掉和朋友的约。
You know, I have someone in my life who was having a lot of issues with hormonal acne and started to cancel plans because of this.
我就跟她说，你带着痘都能照常上班，
And I said to this person, well, you go to work with it.
为什么不试着去见见朋友，把这件事给你带来的困扰跟大家说说呢？
How about you go see your friends and just talk about how much it's bothering you?
然后
And
后来有次和朋友出门玩的时候，这个人坦诚说了自己被这个问题折磨得多难受，还有它对自己的影响，结果一切都不一样了——因为他发现不是只有自己一个人有这种困扰。
one night out with friends, being honest about how much they were struggling with this and how it was impacting them made such a huge difference because they learned that they weren't alone.
他还了解到了一些可以尝试的改善方法。
They learned about some things that they could try.
他得到了自己真正需要的认可、陪伴和支持，要是他一直一个人躲着、把一切都藏起来、假装一切都好的话，这些他根本都得不到。
They got the validation and the connection and the support that they really needed and weren't getting, hiding alone and covering everything up and pretending everything was okay.
没错，卡斯利，就像你一直和我们分享的那些研究结论说的那样，这些正是那个朋友当时需要的——虽然他那会一想到要出门见朋友，就觉得自己根本做不到。
And just exactly, Kasley, as you've been talking to us about the research, it was exactly what they needed even though the thought of doing it felt like there's no way I could handle this.
把你正在经历的难处说出来，就能消解这件事对你的掌控力。
Sharing what you're going through takes the power out of it.
真的能彻底把那种控制感打散。
It completely takes the power out of it.
你说是不是？
Right?
瞬间你就会觉得松了一大口气。
Suddenly, there's this relief that comes with that.
那你说这是真实的需求，还是只是借口呢？
So is that a need or an excuse?
你为什么会对找借口这件事感到愧疚呢？
Why do you feel bad about the excuses?
我觉得这本质上就是在帮别人而已。
I think it's just helping people.
因为我也很关心大家的情绪健康。
Because I care about people's emotional well-being too.
虽然我得说这其实是个借口，但我完全能理解这种心情。
But I'm gonna say it's an excuse, but I have tremendous compassion for that.
能不能请你分析一下，这些借口和真正需要设立边界、保护自身精力的合理需求，两者的占比分别是多少？
Could you reflect on the size of the excuses versus true needs to have boundaries and to really protect your energy?
要说的话，在这些情况里，借口的数量要比真实需求多得多。
So there are a lot more excuses than there are needs in these jars.
这也让我们看清一个道理：没错，有时候我们确实得先满足自己的需求，这完全合情合理。
And what this reveals to us is that, yes, sometimes we do need to take care of our needs, and that's extremely valid.
但大多数时候，你大概率只是在找借口，你得主动走出去，花精力去交新朋友、深化现有的人际关系，因为这些付出最终会给你的人生带来丰厚的回报。
But most of the time, chances are you're making an excuse, and you need to get out there and invest in making new friends, in deepening your connections, because it is going to pay dividends for your life.
这个分析太有帮助了。
This is so helpful.
我甚至能想象到，正在听这段内容或是看视频的你，也在不住点头认同。
And I can almost feel you as you're listening or watching nodding along.
我能感觉到你松了口气，定下心来。
I can feel you exhaling and going, okay.
这件事你能做到的。
I can do this.
更重要的是，你必须去做这件事。
And more importantly, I need to do this.
那趁着我们稍作休息、听一段赞助商广告的间隙，我想请你帮个小忙。
So while we take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsors, I want you to do me a favor.
如果你在乎的人感到孤单，经历了重大的生活变化，搬了家，或者有个朋友渐渐疏远了，你不知道该怎么办，那就试着行动一次吧。
If someone that you love has been feeling lonely, if they've gone through a major life change, if they've moved, if you've had a friend drifting away and you don't know what to do about it, just take a chance.
把这期节目分享给他们。
Share this episode with them.
你学到的其实很简单：一条短信、一个电话、一次简单的问候，再发个播客链接，说一句‘我刚刚想到你了’。
Because what you're learning is one text, one phone call, one quick check-in, and a simple link to a podcast episode, hey, I've been thinking about you.
这些小举动能让你和别人更亲近。
It can bring you closer to people.
同时也会提醒你，生活中其实有很多你爱的人，你建立的这些关系，正是让生活变得有意义的关键。
And it can also remind you that there are people in your life that you love, that the relationships that you build are a huge part of what makes your life meaningful.
而这一切，从你开始。
And it starts with you.
别走开。
Don't go anywhere.
马上回来，继续陪我听下去。
We'll be right back, so stay with me.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
今天，我要和哈佛大学出身的社会科学家卡斯利·基拉姆一起，和大家聊聊社交健康，以及成年人该如何经营更好的友谊、建立稳固的人际关系。
Today, you and I are here with Kasley Killam, a Harvard trained social scientist, and we're talking all about social health and building better friendships and connections as an adult.
卡斯利，在你的研究里，人们的工作强度会不会和成年人经营友谊的难度存在关联呢？
Kasley, in your research, was there any connection between how much people are working and how hard adult friendship is?
现在来说
This is
这个问题问得非常好。
a great question.
那Mel，有77%的美国人每周工作时长都超过了40小时。
So, Mel, 77% of Americans work more than forty hours a week.
而且说实话，我认识的所有人，每周工作时长都不止40小时
And to be honest, everyone I know works more than forty hours a
周。
week.
对。
Yeah.
那之后还要养宠物、带孩子、照顾家人，再加上通勤的时间。
And then you throw in pets and kids and family and commuting.
而且
And
那试问，时间到底从哪来啊？
And it's like, where is the time?
是吧？
Right?
我要怎么才能挤得出时间经营友情呢？
How do I even make time for friendships?
所以我想到一个非常重要的观点：维系人际关系不一定得花大量时间，一样可以很有意义。
And so this brings me to this idea that I think is really important, which is that connection doesn't have to be time consuming for it to be meaningful.
目前已有不少可靠的研究表明，哪怕只是发一条简单的短信，或是打十分钟的电话，
So there are a lot of great studies showing that even a simple text message or a ten minute phone call.
这短短十分钟的通话真的能缓解一个人的孤独感。
A ten minute phone call can literally reduce loneliness for someone.
你懂吗？
Okay?
又或是花五分钟向某个人表达感谢，
Taking five minutes to express gratitude to someone.
都是些不起眼的细碎小事，但却能带来实实在在的改变。
These are really small momentary things that actually make a difference.
所以我给大家的一个建议就是，先把维系关系放在首位。
So one of my recommendations for people is to go for connection first.
好的。
Okay.
比如说一天当中，要是你开会提前五分钟就结束了。
So throughout the day, maybe we are in a meeting that ends five minutes early.
那我们一般会怎么打发这五分钟呢？
And what do we do to fill that five minutes?
肯定是刷手机，对吧？
We scroll on our phones, right?
刷社交媒体。
We look at social media.
要么看新闻标题，是这么回事吧？
We read the news headlines, right?
又或是你在排队等着办事的时候
Or maybe you are standing in line waiting for something.
你第一反应就是掏出手机刷个不停，把这段碎片时间打发掉
Again, you pull out the phone, you're scrolling to just kill that time.
但我希望你先把人和人之间的联结放在第一位
Instead, I want you to go for connection first.
所以如果你要拿手机，不如给朋友发条消息
So if you pull out your phone, text a friend.
别刷社交媒体。
Don't go on social media.
对吧？
Right?
如果你开车通勤，或者坐公交、地铁去上班，别急着立刻点开播客——当然啦，除非你听的是我们这期节目，
If you are in the car commuting or on the bus or the metro commuting to work, right, instead of immediately putting in a podcast, unless it's this one, of
没错。
course.
别这样。
No.
没事的。
It's okay.
我，我希望你能和人保持联结。
I I I want you to be connected.
你一个人走路的时候也可以听这个的。
You can listen to this while you're walking alone.
所以与其听播客或者放音乐，不如给家里人打个电话。
So instead of a podcast or music, call a family member.
打给那个好久没聊过的朋友。
Call a friend who you haven't talked to in a while.
其实这个我经常做。
Actually, that's one thing that I do a lot.
我开车的时候，哪怕只有10分钟空闲，都会给别人打电话。
When I'm in the car, even if I only have 10, I call people.
我太喜欢这个建议了
I love that.
你可以跟对方说，我只有五六分钟空闲，但心里一直想着你，就想打个招呼
And you can say, I only have ten minutes or I only have five minutes, but I was thinking about you and just wanted to say hi.
你今天过得怎么样？
How's your day?
这样做效果真的差很多
Makes a big difference.
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