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嘿。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
我非常高兴你现在能和我在一起，因为这场对话是我从四年前开始这个播客以来就一直想进行的。
I am so glad that you are here with me right now because this conversation is a conversation that I've been wanting to have ever since I started this podcast four years ago.
这一集是你和你所爱的人的终极离婚指南，我们和世界顶级离婚律师詹姆斯·塞克斯顿一起制作。
This episode is the ultimate guide to divorce for you and the people that you love, and we are creating it with the world's number one divorce attorney, James Sexton.
我非常兴奋他能来到我们波士顿的演播室，因为他将详细讲解他所说的离婚的六个阶段。
I am so excited that he is here in our Boston studios because he is going to break down what he calls the six stages of divorce.
他会带你走过每个阶段，告诉你该做什么，不该做什么。
He's gonna walk you through every stage, what to do, what not to do.
而且他还会强调这一点。
And he's also gonna make this point.
离婚影响你认识的每一个人。
Divorce impacts every single person you know.
也许你正在经历离婚。
Maybe you're going through it.
也许你正在考虑离婚。
Maybe you're thinking about it.
也许你正在努力从离婚中走出来，或者你爱的人现在正在经历离婚。
Maybe you're struggling to move on after one, or maybe someone you love is going through a divorce right now.
无论你处于什么情况，你了解得越多，准备得越充分，你就越能自己应对，或者更好地支持你正在经历离婚的亲人。
No matter where you are, the more informed you are, the better equipped you are going to be, the better you will navigate it yourself or be able to support the people that you love who are going through it.
我非常激动你能拥有这个改变人生的资源，作为你余生的免费指南，我迫不及待想让你体验这次对话。
I am so excited for you to have this life changing resource as a free guide for the rest of your life, and I cannot wait for you to experience this conversation.
嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
今天你在这里，我真是太高兴了。
I am absolutely thrilled that you're here today.
能和你一起度过这段时光，是我的荣幸。
It's such an honor to be together, to spend this time with you.
如果你是新听众，或者是因为别人分享这集节目才来的，我想花点时间亲自欢迎你加入Mel Robbins播客大家庭。
If you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you, I just wanna take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
今天，你将获得一份关于离婚的终极指南，为你和你爱的人准备，嘉宾是我们Mel Robbins播客有史以来最喜欢的嘉宾之一，独一无二的James Sexton。
Today, you are getting the ultimate guide to divorce for you and the people that you love with one of my favorite guests we have ever had on the Mel Robbins Podcast, the one and only James Sexton.
二十多年来，他一直是全球顶尖的离婚律师之一。
For over twenty years, he has been one of the top divorce attorneys in the world.
他帮助过许多夫妻从实际、情感和法律层面应对婚姻结束的现实。
He's helped couples deal with the reality of a marriage ending practically, emotionally, and legally.
他毕业于福特汉姆法学院，还拥有纽约大学说服性演讲与修辞学的硕士学位，今天你就能感受到他的功力。
He's a graduate of Fordham Law School, holds a master's degree from NYU in persuasive speech and rhetoric, and you're about to experience that today.
今天，他会给你一份全面的指南。
Today, he is going to give you a comprehensive guide.
他会分享所有你和你爱的人在离婚前需要知道的建议，离婚期间该怎么做，以及之后如何重建生活。
He's gonna share all the advice that you and your loved ones need to know before you get a divorce, what to do during a divorce, and how to build your life afterwards.
所以，请大家欢迎James Sexton再次来到Mel Robbins播客。
So please help me welcome back James Sexton to the Mel Robbins podcast.
谢谢。
Thank you.
再次来到这里真是太高兴了。
It's so good to be here again.
你能答应来，我特别激动，因为第一次请你上节目的时候，我们聊了关于关系的最棒的一次对话，你教了我四个字，那就是“你是我最爱的人”。
I am so thrilled that you said yes to this, because when I first had you on the show and you and I had one of the single best conversations about relationships, you taught me four words and those four words are, you're my favorite person.
这四个字就是长久爱情的秘诀。
And those four words are the secret to having lasting love.
今年我和克里斯庆祝结婚三十周年。
And I'm celebrating my thirtieth wedding anniversary this year with Chris.
我们每天都会对彼此说“你是我最爱的人”。
And we say you're my favorite person every single day to one another.
这真的让本来就很美满的婚姻变得更好了。
And it has really improved what was already a really great marriage.
所以，我特别感谢你，不仅改变了我的生活，而且那次对话之后，我跟你说过，你是美国最顶尖的离婚律师。
And so I cannot thank you enough for not only, making a difference in my life, but after that conversation, I said to you, you are the number one divorce attorney in The United States.
要是我和克里斯闹离婚，听说他请了你当律师，我估计得吓得尿裤子。
If Chris and I were getting a divorce and I found out he hired you, I would need a diaper.
不是因为你凶，而是因为你太厉害了。
Not because you're mean, but because you're exceptional.
第一次聊完之后我就跟你说，你能不能回来做个全面的离婚指南，把方方面面都讲透？
And I said to you after our first conversation, would you come back and do a comprehensive guide on divorce and cover everything?
因为大多数人，不管是自己经历还是身边人遇到这种事，根本请不起你这样的律师。
Because most of us, if we go through that or if our loved ones do, would never be able to hire you.
你答应了。
And you said yes.
我也很想让你跟听众聊聊，说说今天我们要聊些什么，以及你希望他们怎么看待这次对话——把它当作一个能改变人生的资源，无论是对于他们自己、他们所爱的人，还是那些正在经历离婚、考虑离婚，或者已经离了婚却仍然无法找回力量和生活的重建的人。
And I would love to have you speak to the person who's listening and share with them, what are we gonna cover today, and how do you want them to think about this conversation in terms of it being a life changing resource for them or people that they love who may be going through divorce or may be considering divorce or may have gone through one and still can't get their power and their life back?
我的意思是，我觉得我们第一次的谈话更多是关于‘原理’方面的，而这次更像是‘急诊室’。
I mean, I think our first conversation was more the physics of things, and this one's more the emergency room.
离婚现在非常普遍，而且越来越常见，尤其是像我们稍后会提到的那种‘被动式离婚’，也就是夫妻虽然名义上没离，但实际上已经名存实亡。
Divorce is so common, increasingly more common in terms of the, you know, what we'll talk about later as being sort of the passive divorce where people stay married.
他们没有办手续，但心里已经退出这段婚姻了。
They don't do the paperwork, but they just have checked out of the marriage.
所以，我真的希望今天大家离开的时候，能实实在在明白一件事：如果婚姻还能挽救，那在早期阶段是有一些机会点的。
So, really, what I I hope, you know, everyone will walk out of here with today in a very tangible way is the realization that, a, if a marriage can be saved, that there are some points where that can happen early on in the process.
但如果挽救不了，或者不该挽救——这两件事不一样——那也有办法来应对当前的情况。
But if it can't be or it shouldn't be, and those are two different things, that there are ways that we can manage what's happening here.
很多人把离婚当成天气一样，觉得是发生在自己身上的事，但其实不是这样。
A lot of people treated divorce like the weather, like it's something that happened to them, and that's not true.
离婚是一个过程，而且是一个你拥有巨大掌控力的过程。
It's a process, and it's a process you have a tremendous amount of control over.
所以，希望听完这段对话，大家能真正搞清楚自己手里有哪些主动权，以及该关注哪些事情。
So, hopefully, people are gonna walk out of this conversation with real clarity as to the levers that they have control over and the things that they should be looking at.
如果你正在考虑离婚，我想你会看到一个关键的区别：这段关系是已经坏了，还是只是没人管？
And if you're thinking about it, I think you'll see the distinction, a key distinction between is this broken or is this unattended?
因为这两者是完全不同的。
Because those are two different things.
我的婚姻是破裂了，还是只是没人打理？
Is my marriage broken or is my marriage unattended?
因为这两者不一样，处理起来需要的技能也不同。
Because they're not the same, and they require two different skill sets to deal with.
如果有人正在经历离婚，不管是刚开始还是正处在水深火热之中，我觉得听完这场对话，他们会在离婚上少花很多钱。
If someone's in a divorce, meaning they've started one or they're right in the thick of one, I think at the end of this conversation, they're gonna spend less money on that divorce.
他们会少伤害孩子一些。
They're gonna hurt their children less.
他们也会少伤害自己，而且能更好地和律师配合。
They're gonna do less harm to themselves, and they're gonna work better with the counsel that they have.
如果已经离过婚的人在听，我觉得这能帮他们理清这段经历在他们人生中的位置，以及它如何融入他们的自我叙述和自我认知，它带来了哪些后续影响，又可能带来哪些积极的后续影响。
If someone's been through a divorce and they're listening, I think it's gonna help them frame where to put that in the Wikipedia page of their life, and where does it fit in their self narrative and in their sense of who they are, and what second order effects has it been having, and what second order effects in a positive way could it have?
他们从中吸取了哪些教训？
What are the lessons that they learned from it?
他们带着哪些伤疤，我们又该如何看待这些？
What are the scars they carry, and how do we see that?
我们怎么注意到它，又怎么利用它来让自己和身边的人受益呢？
How do we notice it, and how do we use it for our benefit and the benefit of the people around us?
如果正在听的人，你爱的人正在经历离婚，或者已经离了，或者你的父母离过婚，或者你的孩子正在离婚，或者你的朋友正在离婚，或者你新交往的恋人经历过一场糟糕的离婚——我想我现在已经把全世界的人都包括进去了。
And if someone's listening who loves someone who's divorced or going through a divorce, or their parents have divorced, or one of their children is divorcing, or one of their friends is divorcing, or someone who they're in a new romantic relationship with went through an ugly divorce, And I think I've now just described the entire world.
但我觉得对于这些人来说，关键是你怎么成为你爱的人生活中的一个支撑点？
But I think those people, it's gonna be, how can you be part of the structure of this person you love's life?
你怎么去支持他们？
How can you be a support to them?
因为你知道，这就像一张桌子。
How can you be because, you know, it's a table.
有这个人、他们的配偶、律师，然后还有另一条腿——你的朋友、家人、社区，你身边的人。
There's there's this person and their spouse and the lawyer, and then there's this other leg, your friends, your family, your community, the people around you.
桌子的特点就是，如果一条腿断了，其他三条腿再漂亮再直也没用，桌子还是会倒。
And the thing about tables is if one leg is off, doesn't matter how nice and straight the other three legs are, that table's gonna fall down.
所以我觉得，当我们谈论离婚时，我最想对大家说的是，痛苦是不可避免的。
So I guess when we're thinking about divorce, what I wanna say to people more than anything else in this conversation is the pain isn't optional.
要么是为了避免离婚而进行痛苦的对话，要么是经历离婚时必须承受的痛苦步骤，或者之后如何把它安放在你的生活中。
Like, they're gonna either be painful conversations to avoid divorce, or there's gonna be painful steps you have to take to make it through a divorce or how to place it in your life afterwards.
但伤害是可以避免的。
But the damage is optional.
伤害是可以避免的，而且你可以做很多事情。
The damage is optional, and there's a lot you can do.
所以，希望我们聊完之后，你会感觉更有掌控感。
So, hopefully, we'll walk out of this conversation with a feeling of a little more control.
嗯，我毫不怀疑我们会这样。
Well, I have no doubt that we will.
这就是我请你来的原因。
That's why I wanted you here.
我想给你读一段你第一本超级畅销书《如何保持爱情》里的内容。
And I wanna read to you from your first mega bestseller, How to Stay in Love.
这是第261页。
This is page two sixty one.
你说过，有时候离婚是最好的选择。
And you say, Sometimes getting divorced is the best thing to do.
有时候，离婚是最仁慈的做法。
Sometimes it's the kindest thing to do.
有时候，哪怕听起来有点不敬，离婚是对自己和伴侣都充满爱的决定。
Sometimes, at the risk of seeming profane, it's the loving thing to do for yourself and for your spouse.
你见过哪些最大的迹象表明离婚是不可避免的？
What are the biggest signs that you've seen that divorce is inevitable?
我们可以从两个角度来看这个问题。
There's two ways we can look at it.
什么时候离婚是必要的，什么时候离婚是可能的？
When is a divorce necessary, and when is a divorce likely?
这是两码事。
And those are two different things.
所以，你知道，有时候“从此幸福”意味着各自幸福。
So, you know, sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately.
所以我挺赞同这个观点的。
So I'm a fan of that.
我觉得有些情况下离婚是很有可能的，而且真的值得想想自己处在离婚可能性的哪个阶段。
I think there are times where divorce is likely, and it's really worth thinking about where am I in that timeline of the likelihood of divorce.
但我想一开始就说明，有些情况下离婚是必要的。
But I wanna say right at the outset, there are times where divorce is necessary.
我其实觉得有五种情况，五个具体的类别，离婚是必要的。
I actually think there's five times, five specific categories where divorce is necessary.
第一，虐待。
One, abuse.
明白吗？
K?
虐待。
Abuse.
身体上的、情感上的、经济上的威胁，尤其是涉及到孩子和他们的照顾时。
Physical, emotional, financial threats when it comes to the children and their care.
如果连安全都得不到保障，那就不可能感受到爱。
You can't be loved if you're not safe.
所以，如果存在虐待的情况，离婚很可能是必要的。
So situations where there's abuse, divorce is likely necessary.
第二种情况，我称之为“虚假自我”，就是婚姻里一个人，却戴着面具。
The second one I call the false self, and that's when there's, like, one person in the marriage and one costume.
就像，一个人在做真实的自己，而另一个人只是在假装成完全不是自己的样子。
Like, there's one person being themselves, and there's one person who's just pretending to be something that they're clearly not.
他们假装是好丈夫，假装是忠诚的人，假装是可靠的人，但实际上根本不是。
They're pretending to be a good husband, pretending to be a fidelitous person, pretending to be a reliable per and in fact, they're just not.
然后会有某个瞬间让你恍然大悟，你会想，等等。
And there's some revelation that happens where you realize, wait a minute.
我其实根本不是跟这个人结的婚。
I'm not actually married to this person.
这段婚姻里，只有一个人，和一个面具。
There's one person and one costume in this marriage.
对吧？
K?
第三种，我称之为“被偷走的现实”，就是有人未经你同意，擅自决定替你书写人生。
The third, I call the stolen reality, and that's where someone has decided they're gonna author your life without your consent.
比如，你发现整个401k退休金账户被清空，拿去赌了。
Like, that's the you find out that the entire four zero one k was liquidated for their gambling.
那都是事后才发现的。
That's after it's been done.
比如你发现对方还有另一个家庭。
It's when you find out that they have a second family.
比如你发现过去三年里，对方一直和别人保持着关系。
It's when you find out that they've been in a relationship with another person for the last three years.
这种情况下，你会想，好吧。
Like, that's a situation where you go, okay.
我一直以为的现实其实是虚构的，现在我才刚刚回过神来，搞清楚自己婚姻里到底发生了什么。
What I believed was my reality was a fiction, and now I'm just getting caught back up to speed as to what's going on in my own marriage.
而且你会惊讶这种事真的经常发生，当它发生的时候，我可是亲眼目睹的。
And and you'd be shocked how many times that actually happens to people, and I have a ringside seat to it when it does.
第四种，有点像那种不知悔改的重复犯错。
The fourth one, it's kinda like an unrepentant repeat.
比如，有人出轨了。
Like, somebody cheats.
有人在吵架的时候说了很过分的话。
Somebody has says something terrible in the middle of a fight.
你知道吗？
You know?
任何跟伴侣结婚超过五年，呃，五个月的人，都掌握着我所说的“核密码”。
Anybody who's been married to someone for more than five, you know, five months, they have what I call the nuclear codes.
他们有一句话，可以对伴侣说，而且知道这句话会让对方崩溃大哭。
They have, like, a sentence they could say to their partner that they know would reduce them to tears.
就像核密码一样，你不能用超过一次，而且最好一次都不要用。
And you like the nuclear codes, you can't use them more than once, and you shouldn't use them at all.
就像，赢这个游戏的唯一办法就是不玩。
Like, the only way to win that game is not to play.
但如果你结婚三十年，情况就不一样了。
But everyone you've been married thirty years.
总有一些话，你对他说，或者他对你说，都能精准击中对方的软肋。
There's some sentences you could say to him, he could say to you that would just hit all the soft targets.
你不可能爱一个人，却不让他看到你的软肋在哪里。
You can't love somebody and not let them see where your soft targets are.
所以这就像是一种被武器化的亲密关系。
So it's like weaponized intimacy.
所以当我谈到那种不知悔改的重复犯错，指的是有人刚刚做了很糟糕的事情。
So when I talk about, like, the unrepentant repeat, it's someone who has just engaged in some awful behavior.
但道歉对他们来说已经驾轻就熟了。
But the apology has become something they're fluent in.
就像，那只是他们随口说说的，你知道，我简直不敢相信我做了这种事。
Like, it's just something that they, you know, I can't believe I did this.
我再也不会这么做了。
I'll never do it again.
六个月后，我又说，我真不敢相信我说过那种话。
Six months later, I can't believe I said that.
我再也不会说那种话了。
I'll never say that again.
然后这就成了一个循环，短期内根本停不下来。
And it just becomes a cycle that it's not ending anytime soon.
这种事就是会一直发生。
It's just gonna keep happening.
还有，我觉得需要结束的第五种婚姻，我称之为“萎缩型婚姻”，就是那种逼着你一点点失去自我，直到你几乎都不认识自己是谁的婚姻。
And, you know, the fifth type of marriage that I think needs to end is I would call it the shrinking marriage, and that is a marriage that forces you to just become less and less and less of who you are until there's almost no sense of who you are left anymore.
就是那种要求你变得更小、更安静、更不像自己的婚姻。
Like, a marriage that requires you to be smaller, quieter, and less of yourself.
你知道，我在我们第一次谈话里还说过，在一段婚姻结束时，如果幸运的话是走到生命尽头，有两句美好的话可以说：一句是“你帮我成为了最真实的自己”，另一句是“你是我最喜欢的人”。
You know, the other thing I I said in our first conversation was the two wonderful things to say at the end of a marriage when, hopefully, it ends in death is to say, you helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and you're my favorite person.
我觉得一段好的婚姻是能帮助你成为你自己的。
And I think a good marriage is one that helps you become who you are.
所以反过来，如果一段婚姻要求你越来越频繁地违背真实的自己，那这样的婚姻就该结束了。
So the opposite of that, one that requires you to be something other than who you are in a real and increasingly frequent way, that's a marriage you need to have end.
但你看，离开一段无法让你感到安全的婚姻并不是失败。
But see, leaving a marriage that can't be made safe isn't failure.
我觉得这不是在爱情上的失败。
I think it's it's not a failure at love.
这是在捍卫爱情。
It's defending love.
这是在捍卫你对自己的爱。
It's defending the love you have for yourself.
这是在捍卫你对孩子的爱，甚至有时候也是在捍卫你对那个人的爱——那个人可能也没意识到，因为这段已经无法维系的关系，他们也没有成为最真实的自己。
It's defending the love that you have for your children, and it's defending even sometimes the love you have for this other person who may not realize that they're not the most authentic version of themselves either by virtue of this connection that isn't working anymore.
你说有六个阶段，詹姆斯，是的。
You say there's six stages, James Yeah.
整个离婚过程。
To the whole divorce process.
你能列出这六个阶段吗？
Can you list out the six stages?
第一个阶段，我称之为“前思考期”。
So the first is what I would call the precontemplative.
就是，我不太开心，但离婚的念头还没进入我的脑海，我也没有把这两者联系起来。
You know, that's I'm less happy, but the thought of divorce hasn't entered my head yet, and I kind of haven't connected the two.
就像，我不知道自己怎么了，但就是不再快乐了。
Like, I don't know what's going on in me, but I'm just, like, not happy anymore.
就是，感觉一切比以前更沉重了。
Like, things just feel heavier than they used to.
我还没意识到，哦，这是我的婚姻问题。
And I haven't connected yet that, oh, it's my marriage.
就像，这是我生活中最重要的关系，在我生活的生态系统中。
Like, it's this fundamentally important relationship in my life, in the ecosystem of my life.
但你还没把这两件事联系起来。
And you haven't made that connection yet.
所以这是第一阶段。
So that's stage one.
第二阶段是思考期。
Stage two is the contemplative.
这时候“离婚”这个词开始进入你的脑海，你开始想，而危险在于，这是一场凌晨三点的私下审判，没有辩护律师在场。
That's when the word divorce starts to enter your brain, where you start to go, And the danger of that is it's a it's a private trial that happens at 3AM with no defense counsel present.
就像你躺在床上想，也许吧。
Like, you're just laying in bed going, you know, maybe.
我是说，他确实做了那件事。
I mean, he really did do that.
那真的让人很不舒服。
That was really unpleasant.
而且，你知道，他不在的那一周我确实过得很开心。
And, you know, I did really enjoy it when I he was away that one week.
这就像你脑子里的一场审判，对方没有辩护律师在场，但却是真实的。
And it's it's a trial you're having in your head with no defense counsel present for the other party, but it's real.
就在这个时候，你开始把这两件事联系起来，比如，嘿。
It's it's where you start to make this connection between, hey.
我的不快乐和我的婚姻状况，可能在某种程度上是相关的。
My unhappiness and the status of my marriage might be tied to each other in some way.
第三个阶段，我觉得，是你决定，好吧。
The third stage is, I think, where you decide, okay.
就是它了。
This is it.
我觉得这件事必须发生。
Like, I think this has to happen.
我会称之为决定性的时刻。
Like, I would call that the moment of decision.
而在这个阶段，你下定决心要去做这件事的念头已经结束了。
And that is where the deciding I'm gonna do this is over.
现在剩下的就是时机、后勤和恐惧了。
Now it's like timing, logistics, and fear.
就这些。
That's all.
比如，我什么时候去做？
Like, when will I do it?
因为，你知道，我的生意有旺季。
Because, you know, we my business has a busy season.
旺季就在孩子们开学后和假期结束后。
Like, busy season is right after the kids go back to school and right after the holidays.
比如1月2号，健身房和离婚律师的办公室都爆满，因为每个人都想在新的一年里减掉200磅多余的重量，要么甩掉配偶，要么去健身。
Like, January 2, gyms and divorce lawyers offices are full because everyone's gonna lose 200 unwanted pounds this year in the form of their spouse or at the gym.
二选一。
One of the two.
所以我要重新开始我的生活。
And so I'm gonna reinvent my life.
再说，好像你不能在1月15号重新开始生活一样，其实和1月1号没什么区别，但这就是一个做决定的时刻。
Again, as if you couldn't reinvent your life on the fifteenth as easy as you could on January 1, but this is a moment of decision.
而且，假期停火期也结束了。
Now, again, also, the holiday ceasefire is over.
大家之前都得忍着，保持表面和平。
Everyone's kinda had to keep it together.
有时候，即使是最幸福的婚姻，在家人不断来访、公司假日派对、各种评判、为了给孩子买最新 gadgets 而欠下的债务、想给配偶买你觉得他们会喜欢的东西但他们并没有你想象中那么喜欢之后，也会变得紧张。
Sometimes even the happiest marriage can be strained after having family over endlessly and the company holiday parties and all the stuff they judge doing, all the debt you accumulated buying your children, whatever the latest gadget is, and trying to get your spouse the thing that you thought they'd like, and then they didn't like it as much as you thought they'd like it.
即使他们确实喜欢，你也没有得到你预期的满足感。
And even if they did like it as much, you didn't feel as good as you thought you would.
所以，1月2号大家感觉都不太好，这时候很多人就会来咨询。
So it's one of those things that everybody's feeling not great January 2, and that's a time where a lot of people come in.
当孩子们返校后，似乎会有一个夏季停火期，大家都觉得，好吧。
And when the kids go back to school, there's a summer ceasefire that seems to happen where everybody's like, alright.
听着。
Listen.
孩子们在家。
The kids are home.
节奏比较慢。
It's kind of a quieter pace.
现在孩子们回学校了。
Now the kids are back at school.
生活开始有规律了。
Structure's coming into play.
我们得动起来了。
We gotta get moving here.
然后就是真正开始行动的那个阶段。
Then there's the, like, actually taking steps stage.
比如，第四阶段就是开始行动。
Like, the fourth stage is taking steps.
你实际上在做这件事了。
You're actually doing the thing.
你去找律师谈了。
You went and went to talk to a lawyer.
你已经请了律师。
You've hired a lawyer.
就是说，私事开始公开了。
Like, the private thing becomes public.
你开始让别人知道，是的，婚姻要结束了。
Like, you're starting to let people know, yeah, the marriage is ending.
婚姻已经结束了。
The marriage is over.
我们正在办理离婚。
We're in a divorce proceeding.
第五个阶段就是你完全陷进去了。
The fifth thing is you're in it, solidly in it.
就是离婚的真正实质部分，核心内容，这个过程有时会让原本理智的人变得面目全非。
Like, the real deal of divorce, the meat and potatoes of it, a process that makes otherwise logical people sometimes unrecognizable.
你真的深陷其中了。
Like, you're really in the thick of it.
你懂吗？
You know?
惠特曼称之为铅一般的时刻，就是那种现实的沉重压在你身上，你只能硬撑过去的感觉。
Walt Whitman called the hour of lead, you know, where the heaviness of reality is on you, and you're just trying to get through it.
然后六个阶段就结束了。
And then the six stages just got out.
你终于走出来了。
You just got out.
一切都结束了。
It's over.
你明白吗？
You know?
文件处理的速度比你的神经系统恢复还快。
The paperwork gets done faster than your nervous system.
我觉得每个人离婚的时候都有这种心态，就是，哎呀，我已经熬了一年半了。
I think everybody has this attitude when they get divorced of, well, I've been going through it for a year and a half.
所以，是的，我已经放下了。
So, yeah, I'm I'm over it.
但其实不是这样的。
It's like, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
当文件真正签完，所有事情都正式结束，你付清了律师的最后一笔账单，然后关上了那扇门，这时候悲伤才真正开始。
When the papers actually get signed and everything's officially done and you paid that last bill to the lawyer and now you close the door to the thing, that's when grief begins.
这时候疗愈才真正开始。
That's when healing really begins.
而在这个阶段，很多人只想赶紧进入下一段，他们宁愿先下载个约会软件，也不愿意先找个心理医生，这完全是本末倒置。
And that's the part where a lot of people just wanna move on to the next thing, and they'd rather get a dating app before they get a therapist, and that's backwards.
所以这其实就是那六个阶段。
So those are really the six stages.
我想一个一个地过一遍。
I wanna go through them one by one.
那我们先说第一个，前沉思阶段。
So let's talk about the first one, pre contemplative.
你脑子里还没想到离婚这个词，但你已经开始觉得不开心，心里很沉重。
You haven't put the word divorce in your mind yet, But you're starting to feel unhappy, heavy.
总觉得哪里不对劲。
Something's off.
这个阶段最难的地方在于，它看起来好像什么都没发生。
The hard part about this is it looks like nothing.
就是看起来什么事都没有。
It just doesn't look like anything.
问题恰恰就在这里。
Like, it's just that's the problem.
就是什么都没有。
It's just nothing.
只是有一种说不出的难受。
There's just a malaise kind of happening.
不是吵架。
It's not fighting.
不是愤怒。
It's not anger.
愤怒至少还说明你在乎。
Anger anger still implies priority.
就是平淡。
Like, it's flatness.
不是婚姻破裂了。
Like, it's not a marriage that's broken.
而是这段婚姻被忽视太久，已经不像婚姻了。
It's one that's been unattended for so long, it doesn't look like a marriage anymore.
就像室友在经营一家日托中心，或者只是共同养了一条狗的室友，或者就是两个人，像一台机器在运行一个已经没有意义的程序，但这就是我们当初选择的程序。
It's like roommates running a day care center or just roommates with a dog in common, or it's just people that are just it's a machine running a program that doesn't make sense anymore, but this is the program that we picked.
你懂吗？
You know?
我在之前的对话里也说过，很多人结婚是因为婚姻是一种传统。
And I said it in one of our other conversations that a lot of people get married because marriage is a tradition.
在某种程度上，传统是前人智慧的结晶，是他们想教给我们的关于什么有价值的东西。
And to some degree, tradition is the wisdom of the people who came before us and the things, the lessons they had to teach us about what has value.
但传统也是死人施加的同伴压力。
And tradition is also peer pressure exerted by dead people.
所以如果你结婚是因为，嗯，对，我们结婚了。
So if you're married because, well, yeah, we're married.
就像，那是该做的事。
Like, that's the thing you do.
就像，我们结婚了。
Like, we're married.
好吧。
Like, okay.
但是，你还在意这段婚姻吗？
But, like, you're not are you paying attention to this anymore?
它对你还有价值吗？
Does this have value to you anymore?
你为它做了什么贡献？
What do you do to add value to it?
你从中得到了什么？
What value do you derive from it?
是因为习惯，还是因为选择？
Is it by default, or is it by design?
这段婚姻到底是什么？
What is this marriage?
对我来说，最危险的阶段就是，两个人之间再也没有真正带着问号的提问了。
The preclandibular stage for me is, like, nobody's asking questions of each other anymore with an actual question mark in it.
对话全都围绕着日常琐事，跟彼此一点关系都没有。
The conversations are all about logistics of the day and nothing to do with each other.
比如，如果你坐在伴侣面前，说我们得聊十分钟，但不能聊工作、孩子或者家里那些杂事，你们会不会就大眼瞪小眼，安静得只能听见蟋蟀叫？
Like, if you sat down in front of your partner and said for ten minutes, we have to talk, but it can't be about our jobs, our kids, or something logistical related to our house, would you just stare at each other with the sound of crickets happening?
就是说，你们之间真的还有什么吗？
Like, is there anything really between you?
因为你们刚认识的时候，是你和我，然后变成了我们。
Because when you met, there was you and me and then we.
有时候这个“我们”变成了全部，而“你”和“我”就完全消失了。
And then sometimes the we becomes everything, and the you and the me is completely gone.
所以问题是，当你坐在这个人对面的时候，你们之间还剩什么？
So the question is, when you're sitting across from this person, what's still there?
对我来说，最刺耳的声音开始出现，就是这个声音。
And to me, the most divisive sound starts to appear, and that's this sound.
什么？
What?
或者好吧。
Or alright.
就是那种，你知道，轻蔑的感觉，就是觉得你的伴侣在这里是个麻烦。
Like, it's just this this sense of, you know, contempt, this sense of, like, your partner's an inconvenience here.
你在说什么？
What are you saying?
好吧。
Alright.
随便吧。
Whatever.
你知道吗？
You know?
对我来说，这就是冒烟的声音。
That's, to me, the sound of the smoke.
还不是着火，但已经是冒烟了。
It's not fire yet, but that's the smoke.
那是前沉思阶段。
That's the pre contemplative stage.
所以如果有人现在正处于那个阶段，是的。
So if somebody's in that stage right now Yeah.
你想对他们说什么？
What do you wanna tell them?
你可以和伴侣进行十分钟尴尬的对话，或者让它开始变成洪水，然后你最终会请来治疗师、调解员或律师。
You can have ten awkward minutes or so of conversation with your partner, or you can let it start to become a flood, and then you're gonna end up with therapists or mediators or lawyers involved.
所以我认为审视你的婚姻是有价值的，坐下来和你的伴侣说，嘿。
So I think there's value in looking at your marriage, sitting down with your partner and saying, hey.
我们能谈谈这个吗，关于我们之间的事？
Can we have a conversation about this, about us?
比如，让我们看看我们做了什么。
Like, let's look at what we do.
因为，你看。
Because what what look.
你写过书。
You've written books.
我也写过书。
I've written books.
书是什么？
What's a book?
书就像人们做事和说话一样。
Books is is like people doing things and saying things.
好的。
Okay.
所以这是我们作为一对夫妻正在写的故事。
So this is a story we're writing as a couple.
我们每天做什么？
What do we do every day?
我们为什么这么做？
Why do we do it?
我们为什么要那样做？
Why do we do it that way?
为什么我们要把杯子放在现在放的那个柜子里？
Why do we put the mugs in the cabinet where we put them?
是不是因为我们搬进来的第一天，就把它们放在那儿了，然后就一直没动过？
Is it just because the first day when we moved in, we just put them there, and then we just left them there?
因为当时就觉得，哦，对。
Because it was like, oh, yeah.
杯子就该放那儿？
That's where the mugs go?
还是说，当时想的是，哦，为什么杯子不在这儿，咖啡机却在那边？
Or was it like, oh, why aren't the mugs there and the coffee makers over there?
我们好像从来没有停下来想过，对。
Like, we never stopped and just went, yeah.
因为五年前你哥哥帮我们搬家的时候，把杯子放上去的。
Because your brother put the mugs up there when he helped us move in five years ago.
因为就是，哦，那成了放杯子的地方。
Because it's just oh, that became where the mugs go.
就像，人们婚姻里有很多这样的事。
Like, there's so much of that in people's marriages.
太对了。
So true.
比如，为什么我们不在这个房间吃饭，而是在那个房间？
Like, why don't we eat dinner in this room instead of that room?
为什么我们聊天的时候不把手机放在这里？
Why don't we put our phones over here when we talk to each other?
为什么我们不再周六一起去农贸市场了？
Why don't we go on Saturdays anymore to the farmer's market together?
为什么我们不在沙发上做爱了？
Why did we stop having sex in the couch?
为什么我们停止了？
Why did we stop?
就是说，我们为什么停下来了？
Like, why did we stop?
再说，可能有很多合理的理由。
Again, there might be very reasonable answers.
可能真的有很好的理由，但停下来想一想，说声嘿，真的有那么难吗？
There might be really good, but just would it take that much to stop and go, hey.
让我们看看我们共同的生活，我们的日常。
Let's look at our life together, our day to day.
因为，再说一遍，我知道什么不重要。
Because, again, doesn't matter what I know.
重要的是我能证明什么。
It matters what I can prove.
我想看到证据。
I wanna see the evidence.
让我们看看我们的日常生活。
Let's look at our day to day life.
我们拿一周的生活来看看。
Let's take a week in our life.
为什么我们要这样做？
Why do we do this this way?
是因为习惯吗？
Is it by default?
还是因为设计？
Is it by design?
如果是设计好的，那很好。
If it's by design, great.
你已经领先一步了。
You're a step ahead.
如果是习惯，我们是不是该换个方式？
If it's by default, should we maybe do it different?
感觉会不一样吗？
Would it feel different?
会不会感觉更好？
Would it feel better?
我们会不会感觉更好？
Would we feel better?
会不会让我们在一起的状态更好？
Would it maybe put us in a better place together?
我觉得这里面有巨大的价值。
And I think there's tremendous value in that.
婚姻里有一种无形的契约。
There's an invisible contract that happens in marriages.
为什么不把它说出来呢？
Why wouldn't you say it out loud?
你已经被它束缚了。
You're bound by it already.
为什么不把它说出来，然后决定，我们就是这份契约的双方呢？
Why wouldn't you say it out loud and decide, we're the two people to this contract?
只要有一方觉得不合适，我们随时都可以重新商量这份约定。
We can renegotiate it anytime we want to if it's not working for either or both of us.
所以，如果你在还没准备好的阶段就采取行动，你其实能做出一些有价值的事情。
So that's what when you take action in the precontemplative stage, you can actually do something worth.
你现在回避的那场对话，今天去谈是成本最低的时候。
The conversation you're avoiding is the cheapest today it will ever be.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
婚姻里沉默的代价，可能最后要我来买单。
The price tag of silence in a marriage can be my bill.
那可能是几百万美元，也可能只是和伴侣尴尬的十分钟，或者一个不自在的下午。
It can be millions of dollars, or it could be ten uncomfortable minutes with your spouse or one uncomfortable afternoon.
就是说，和伴侣谈那场对话的代价，今天是最低的，以后只会越来越高。
Like, the price of that conversation with your spouse is the lowest today it's ever gonna be.
就跟你的伴侣说，嘿。
Just say to your spouse, hey.
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你开心吗？
Are you happy?
我想好好让你开心。
I wanna do a good job of making you happy.
有时候我觉得我们好像在互相错过。
And I feel sometimes like we're kinda passing each other.
你知道吗？
Or you know what?
我前几天在梅尔的节目上听到一个傻乎乎的离婚律师说话，你猜怎么着？
I heard this idiot divorce lawyer talking on Mel's show the other day, and you know what?
他说人们通常不会谈论自己为什么做那些事。
He said something about how, you know, people don't talk about, like, why they do what they do.
然后我就想，我真的想好好跟你过日子。
Like and I thought, you know, I really wanna do a good job of being married to you.
真的，我是认真的。
Like, I really do.
我知道，你有时候确实把婚姻经营得很好，我只是觉得我们找个时间好好聊聊这件事会很好。
Like, I I know, you know, you do a really good job sometimes of being married to me, and I just thought it'd be really good for us to have a conversation about that sometime.
我觉得没多少人会说，我不干这个。
Like, I don't know a lot of people that would go, I'm not doing that.
我还有别的事要做。
I got something else to do.
好吧。
Like okay.
顺便说一句，如果你的伴侣会这么说，我想知道。
By the way, if your partner would say that, I'd like to know that.
我想知道。
I'd like to know.
如果你的伴侣说，是的，这值得知道。
It's worth knowing if your partner says, yeah.
我连十分钟都抽不出来给这段婚姻。
I can't spare ten minutes for this marriage.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
我在看比赛呢。
I got the games on.
好吧。
Like, okay.
如果你真这么觉得的话
If that's how you feel
离婚是必要的。
Divorce is necessary.
到那时候离婚可能就必要了。
Divorce may be necessary at that point.
所以现在谈是最便宜的，以后只会更贵，趁现在谈吧。
So the conversation's the cheapest now it's ever gonna be, so have it now.
趁现在还是小问题的时候谈。
Have it while it's raindrops.
别等到洪水来了再说。
Don't wait till the flood.
嗯，我很喜欢你这么说，因为我确实看到世界各地很多人来信说，我想去做心理咨询。
Well, I love that you said that because I do see a lot of people writing in from around the world saying, I want to go to therapy.
我想努力修复关系，但我配偶不愿意去。
I want to work on it, and my spouse won't go to therapy.
我配偶不想谈这件事。
My spouse doesn't wanna talk about it.
这本身就是更多证据，说明事情已经发展到什么地步了。
And that in and of itself is more evidence about where things are.
我们进入第二阶段，沉思阶段。
Let's move to phase two, contemplative.
这时候，对，
This is when Yeah.
有人真的开始想到离婚这个词了。
Somebody actually thinks the word divorce.
那人们在考虑离婚的时候，会忽略什么呢？
And what do people ignore when they're contemplating divorce?
当你考虑离婚的时候，你脑子里会有一张婚姻问题的清单。
So when you're contemplating divorce, there's a list in your head of the problems in the marriage.
我想说的是，当清单上只有三四条问题的时候，就该采取行动了。
What I would say is take some steps when the list is at, like, three or four.
别等到问题堆到三十二条才动手。
Don't wait till it's at, like, 32.
很多人都是这么做的。
That's what a lot of people do.
很多人都是等到问题严重到不行了，才走出那个考虑的阶段。
Like, a lot of people wait until this thing is, like, bleeding out before they go past the contemplative stage.
考虑阶段就是你要真正勇敢地去盘点这段婚姻里到底发生了什么。
Contemplative stage is where you're really taking a fearless inventory of what's really going on in this marriage.
比如说，我们之间到底有哪些问题？
Like, what are the problems that we're having?
这对我有什么影响？
What impact is it having on me?
这对对方有什么影响？
What impact is it having on this person?
这对我们的孩子有什么影响？
What impact is it having on our children?
我们要对自己诚实，看清楚这里到底发生了什么。
Let's be really honest with ourselves about what's going on here.
我觉得和自己进行这样的对话很重要，因为有时候会有一种悲伤的情绪，而人们往往不去面对它。
And I think having that conversation with yourself is important because sometimes there's an element of grief happening that people don't look at.
婚姻中的事情总是在变化。
So things change in marriages all the time.
我们上次聊过这个，我说人们最容易犯的两个大错误之一就是觉得一切都不会变。
We talked about this last time, how I said one of the two biggest mistakes people make is thinking, oh, nothing's ever gonna change.
一切都太好了。
Things are so great.
我们结婚了，一切都会保持不变，因为婚姻就像我们在关系周围挖的护城河，保护它免受外界和命运的无情打击。
We're getting married, and everything will stay the same now because marriage is gonna be the moat we dig around this relationship that protects it from the world and the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
另一个错误则是说，哦，不。
And then the other mistake they make is saying, oh, no.
比如，这个人会改变的。
Like, this person will change.
比如，他们现在喝得太多，但一旦我们结婚，他们就会振作起来。
Like, they drink too much now, but now that we get married, they're gonna get it together.
或者，哦，不。
Or, oh, no.
这个人真的很不专心，但一旦我们结婚，他们就会真正关注我。
This person's, like, really inattentive, but once we're married, they're really gonna pay attention to me.
或者他们花心，但一旦我们结婚，他们就不会再花心了。
Or they have a wandering eye, but once we get married, they won't have a wandering eye anymore.
所以这两个错误看似相反，但都是真正的错误。
So these are two mistakes that seem like opposites, but they're both legitimate mistakes.
但说实话，我确实觉得有时候人是会变的。
Now the truth is, I do think sometimes change happens.
你和你丈夫在一起三十年，想想有多少
In thirty years of you and your husband being together, think of how many
天哪。
Oh my god.
失去，多少胜利，多少小小的死亡，还有多少巨大的变化，你们两个人的身体变化，你们的孩子，一切，你们的环境，你们住的地方，经济，这么多事情，而且顺便说一句，有些完全是你们无法控制的力量，疫情、经济危机，各种事情都在发生。
Losses, how many victories, how many little deaths, and how many huge changes, physical changes in both of you, your children, everything, your environment, where you live, economics, so many things that and by the way, some completely forces beyond your control, pandemics, economic crisis, all kinds of things happening.
好。
Okay.
所以如果你现在处于思考阶段，我只想让你暂停一下，想想过去十八个月。
So if you're in the contemplative stage now, I just want you to pause for a second and think about the last eighteen months.
过去十八个月里发生了什么让你有这种感觉，可能影响到了你？
What's happened in the last eighteen months that you're feeling this way that could be impacting?
因为事情是这样的，当一个人失去什么的时候，比如失去父母、孩子去上大学、失去宠物、工作变动，有时候这些会在十八个月后以不同的形式重新浮现。
Because here's the thing, like, when someone is grieving something, the loss of a parent, a child going off to college, loss of a pet, a change in their employment situation, sometimes it resurfaces eighteen months later in a different costume.
就像，你开始责怪别人，因为谁一直陪在你身边？不就是你的配偶吗？
Like, you just start blaming because who's around you all the time but your spouse?
而且，比起命运或老天爷，你的配偶更容易让你感到烦躁。
And your spouse is a whole lot easier to get annoyed at than, like, fate or god.
就像，我到底在生谁的气？
Like, who am I mad at?
你的狗死了。
Your dog dies.
你生谁的气？
Who are you mad at?
老天爷？
God?
就像，很难对老天爷生气。
Like, it's hard to be mad at God.
你知道，我的意思是，当你真的可以对着谁大喊大叫的时候。
You know, mean, when you can yell at, really.
但如果你的配偶不支持你，不帮你度过这个过程，就是不在你身边，不给你一个可以随时哭出来的环境，或者让你觉得不自在，让你觉得你得承担他们生活的情绪负担，你还得让他们振作起来，因为他们自己撑不住。
But your spouse not being supportive of you, not helping you through this process, just not being there for you, not creating an environment where you can feel like you can cry if you need to or making you feel self conscious or feeling like you have to carry the emotional load of their life and and you have to keep their chin up because they're not gonna be able to okay.
再看看发生了什么，然后说，好吧。
Again, look at what's going on and say, okay.
等等。
Wait.
有多少是婚姻的问题，有多少是因为——嗯，答案可能确实是，婚姻。
How much is the marriage and how much is because, man, the answer might be, yeah, marriage.
但看看那十八个月的铺垫期，留意一下你生活中发生了什么，可能影响了现在的情况。
Like but look at that eighteen month lead up period and pay some attention to what's gone on in your life that might have impacted what's happening.
如果你在考虑离婚，应该向谁倾诉？
Who should you confide in if you're contemplating divorce?
嗯，我先告诉你，你不应该向谁倾诉。
Well, I'll tell you first who you shouldn't confide in.
不是社交媒体。
Not social media.
赶紧离社交媒体远远的。
Run screaming from social media.
别依赖群聊。
Don't lean on the group chat.
不管孩子多大，都别指望他们。
Do not lean on your kids at any age.
不管你的孩子是8岁、15岁还是40岁。
I don't care if your kids are eight or 15 or 40.
在那个阶段，别把压力放在孩子身上。
Don't lean on your kids when you're in that stage.
别问他们：你觉得我该离婚吗？
Don't say to them, do you think I should get divorced?
你觉得他们会怎么想？这些人不是你该倾诉的对象。
Do you think that they like, these are not the people you should be talking to.
所以我会说，第一，找个心理咨询师单独聊聊。
So I would say, one, a therapist individually.
去找个心理健康专家。
Get a mental health professional.
请个心理治疗师。
Hire a therapist.
再说一次，要找一个真正能挑战你的。
Again, one that genuinely challenges you.
你知道吗，每次我遇到有人说，天哪，
You know, anytime I meet somebody and they're like, oh my god.
我超喜欢做心理治疗的。
I love being in therapy.
那你就是做错了。
You're doing it wrong.
如果你百分之百喜欢，那肯定有问题。
If you love it 100% of the time, you're doing it wrong.
我不是说你不能偶尔有那么一次治疗，让你觉得，对，
I'm not saying you shouldn't every once in a have one of those sessions where you go, like, yeah.
我确实有了一些进步。
I've made some progress.
挺好的。
It's good.
我们做得不错。
Like, we're doing a good job.
你懂吗？
You know?
但很多时候，它应该让你感到有些不舒服。
But a lot of the time, it should make you kind of uncomfortable.
因为去接受治疗时，唯一值得问的问题是：我害怕感受到什么？
Because the only question worth asking when you go into therapy is what is it I'm afraid to feel?
我不想感受什么，为什么我这么害怕它，如果我感受到了会发生什么？
What is it I don't wanna feel, and why am I so afraid of it, and what would happen if I felt it?
还有，我不想面对的是什么？
And what is it I don't wanna look at?
为什么？
And why?
为什么我不想面对它？
Why don't I wanna look at it?
为什么它还在那里？
Why is it still there?
为什么我还一直带着它？
Why is it still carrying around?
为什么它变成了一个拖累我的背包？
Why has it become a backpack that's holding me down?
所以在沉思阶段，第一件事就是找个心理治疗师。
So the first thing in this situation in in the contemplative stage, get a therapist.
找一个能了解你，并且能给你非常诚实看法的治疗师。
Get a therapist who's going to get to know you and get to give you a very honest perspective on things.
然后我觉得你需要一个朋友。
And then I I think you need, like, one friend.
就一个。
Like, one.
但这个人得是跟你没有利益关系，而且已经证明过能守口如瓶的人。
But it's a person with no skin in the game and who's proven that they can keep their mouth shut.
你需要那一个朋友，然后还需要一个律师。
You want that one friend and then a lawyer.
去找律师谈谈。
Go see a lawyer.
你去找律师，不一定要雇他。
When you go see a lawyer, you don't have to hire a lawyer.
我可以告诉你，有多少人来找我，跟我见面，然后说，好吧。
Like, I can tell you how many people come in, and they meet with me, and they go, okay.
我准备好雇你了。
I'm ready to hire you.
我就说，好的。
And I'm like, okay.
我短期内可没打算退休。
I'm not retiring anytime soon.
就是说，你来这儿是为了获取信息。
Like, you come in for information.
了解一下你可能的权利和义务。
Learn about your rights and obligations potentially.
了解一下该怎么做。
Learn about how to look.
因为大多数人，顺便说一句，你买房子的时候，会拿到HUD表格、铅漆披露文件，所有这些。
Because most people, by the way like, again, you you buy a house, you get a HUD one, lead paint disclosure, all these things.
你结婚的时候，会拿到一本小册子。
You get married, you're get a pamphlet.
而你一生中最重要的法律行为，除了死亡之外，却连一张纸都拿不到。
Most legally significant thing you're ever gonna do in your whole life other than die, and you don't even get a one sheet.
你什么都没有。
You got nothing.
很多人第一次了解结婚在法律上意味着什么，竟然是在我的办公室里，而且是在婚姻已经破裂的时候。
Like, the first time people learn what happened legally when they got married is in my office when the whole thing's falling apart.
为什么不早点去找离婚律师呢？
Why not go to a divorce lawyer sooner rather than later?
律师和客户之间的保密协议是受法律保护的。
Attorney client privilege attaches.
没人会知道你来找过我。
No one can know that you saw me.
就算我在街上碰到你，我也会装作不认识你。
If I see you on the street, I'll pretend I never met you.
所以，去找个律师聊聊，就说，嘿。
Like, go talk to a lawyer and just say, hey.
听着。
Listen.
现在情况有点复杂，我就是想知道，这到底会是什么样？
Things are kinda I just wanna know, like, what would this look like?
可能会有什么问题呢？
What might the issues be?
然后你可以告诉我需要准备什么。
And then you can give me the ingredients.
跟我说说。
Tell me.
现在的情况是这样的。
Here's what's going on.
这是我们目前的情况。
This is what we have.
这些是我们的账户。
These are the accounts.
这是我们日常的生活安排。
This is our day to day routine.
这是谁负责照顾孩子的哪些事情。
This is who takes care of what with the kids.
然后我可以说，好的。
And I can say, okay.
这是你可能走的不同路径。
Here's the different paths you might take.
这里有各种不同的，比如，好的律师，有经验的律师，我希望你离开我的办公室。
Here's the different like, good lawyers, experienced lawyers, I want you out of my office.
我不想从你身上赚钱。
I do not wanna make money on you.
比如，我想让你去看心理医生。
Like, I wanna send you to a therapist.
我想让你去找调解员。
I wanna send you to a mediator.
我想让你去一个不是由我主导的流程，因为我是一把武器。
I wanna send you to a process that is gonna not be me because I'm a weapon.
我是一把武器。
I'm a weapon.
他们会用手术刀来做。
They're gonna do it with a scalpel.
我会用电锯来做。
I'm gonna do it with a chainsaw.
别用电锯来做。
Don't do it with a chainsaw.
能用手术刀做的事，就不该用电锯。
There is nothing you can do with a scalpel that you should do with a chainsaw.
那太疯狂了。
That's insane.
所以，一个好的律师会跟你讲清楚利弊，以及所有不同的路径。
So a good lawyer is gonna explain to you upside, downside, all the different paths.
那么，再说回来，我们手头这些是什么呢？
So, again, what is all this we have?
我们有心理层面的因素，和我们的治疗师一起处理。
We have the psychological ingredients with our therapist.
我们有一个可以倾诉的人，就是那个像保险箱一样的朋友，他能听我们说话，而且已经证明了自己是值得信赖的。
We have someone we can confide in the form of that one friend who's a vault for us, who's gonna be able to listen, and they've proven to us that they're trustworthy.
我们有一个律师，他会告诉我们情况。
We have a lawyer who's gonna tell us what's going on.
然后第四个最重要的人，可能是你的配偶。
And then the fourth most important person to talk to, your spouse potentially.
就是你的配偶。
Like, your spouse.
那是最吓人的对话，但有时候其实是最省事的方式。
And that's the scariest conversation, but it's actually sometimes the cheapest way to do things.
有时候人们没意识到，好吧。
Like, sometimes people don't realize, okay.
我们有过那种还没考虑改变的对话。
We had the precontemplative conversation.
婚姻里到底发生了什么？
What's going on in the marriage?
现在情况怎么样？
How are things?
也许现在是时候开始谈一谈了，嘿。
Maybe now is the time where we start to have the, hey.
听我说。
Listen.
我真的觉得有些事情必须得改变了。
I'm really feeling like something's gonna have to change.
也许我们还不必提到离婚这个词，但我们可以开始说，我觉得这要么是结束的开始，要么是开始的结束，而且我们还有机会。
Maybe we don't have to say the word divorce yet, but we can start saying, I feel like this is either the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning, and we still have a chance.
那么，如果可能的话，我们能做些什么呢？
So what can we do, if anything?
因为你想要什么样的结果？
Because what outcome do you want?
这就是建议。
That's counsel.
朋友、律师、治疗师，当你说‘我在考虑离婚’时，他们会说，好的。
The friend, the lawyer, the therapist who says you say I'm thinking about getting divorced, they go, okay.
你希望从中得到什么？
What do you hope to get from that?
你想要的结果是什么？
What's the outcome you want?
那是咨询。
That's counsel.
把他的一切都拿走。
Take him for everything he's got.
那是娱乐。
That's that's entertainment.
那是娱乐。
That's entertainment.
那只是有人把你的生活当作他们的娱乐，或者用来解决他们自己的问题。
That's someone just using your life as their entertainment or to work their stuff out.
詹姆斯，先别急着说。
James, hold that thought.
我不想打断你，但我得暂停一下，让我们听听我们了不起的赞助商说几句。
I hate stopping you, but I need to take a quick pause so that we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors.
我想给你一个机会，把詹姆斯分享的这些信息，转达给你生活中需要的人。
And I wanna give you a chance to share all of this information that James is pouring into you with people in your life who need this.
别走开，因为休息之后，詹姆斯·塞克斯顿会分享他所谓的“四十八小时计划”，以及如何正式提出离婚。
And don't go anywhere, because after the break, James Sexton is gonna share something he calls the forty eight hour plan and exactly how to ask for a divorce.
相信我，我们才刚刚开始。
Trust me, we're just getting started.
别走开。
Don't go anywhere.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我觉得一段好的婚姻，能帮助你成为真正的自己。
I think a good marriage is one that helps you become who you are.
所以反过来，那种要求你变成不是自己的婚姻，就是你需要结束的婚姻。
So the opposite of that, one that requires you to be something other than who you are, that's a marriage you need to have end.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
今天，你和我请到了世界顶级离婚律师塞克斯顿，他正在给你和我提供一份终极离婚指南，为你和你爱的人准备的。
Today, you and I are here with the world's number one divorce attorney, Sexton, and he is giving you and me the ultimate guide to divorce for you and for the people you love.
那我们就直接继续吧。
So let's just jump right back in.
第三阶段就是必须得离了。
Stage three is it has to happen.
你怎么跟配偶提这件事？
How do you raise it with your spouse?
因为我一直很震惊，我身边有这么多人先告诉孩子，而不是先告诉配偶。
Because I've been shocked by the number of people in my life that told their children before their spouse.
这太离谱了。
That's insane.
但人们会走进我的办公室。
But people will come into my office.
他们会进行咨询。
They'll do the consultation.
他们会聘请我。
They'll retain me.
我们会提交文件。
We'll file the papers.
他们的配偶会聘请律师。
Their spouse hires counsel.
然后他们会进来，说，是的。
And then they'll come in, they'll say, yeah.
所以我们明天晚上会坐下来跟孩子们谈谈。
So we're gonna sit down the kids tomorrow night, and we're gonna talk to them.
我就问，为什么？
And I go, why?
他们说，嗯，我们就是想让他们知道一下。
They go, well, yeah, we just wanna let them know.
我就说，好吧。
I'm like, okay.
那好，假设我是你十岁的孩子。
So so I'm your 10 year old.
你会住在哪里？
Where are you going to be living?
妈妈会住在哪里？
Where is mom going to be living?
狗会住在哪里？
Where's the dog gonna live?
我什么时候能见到你？
When am I going to see you?
会是哪几天呢？
What days will it this?
我们夏天还会去科德角吗？
Are we still gonna have the are we still gonna go to Cape Cod in the summers?
我们还会做那个“猜猜看”吗？
Are we gonna do the guess what?
这些问题你现在一个都答不上来。
You don't know the answer to any of those questions yet.
一个都答不上来。
Not one.
所以，作为父母，你的职责之一就是让孩子在一个可怕的世界里感到有些掌控感，而你能做的最糟糕的事情就是对他们说，爸爸妈妈要分开了。
So if your job as a parent is to one of your jobs is to help your children feel like there's some sense of control in a terrifying world, the worst thing you can do is say to them, mom and dad are splitting up.
我们现在除了这个没有更多信息可以告诉你们，但接下来的几个月里我们会再联系你们的。
We kinda don't have more information than that for you at this point, but we'll get back to you, you know, in the next couple of months.
这样做真的很残忍。
Like, that's that's a cruel thing to do.
所以，现实一点说，你能开始调整家庭模式，让它更容易过渡到离婚吗？
So, realistically, can you start shaping your family dynamic in a way that might transition more easily to divorce?
当然可以。
Sure.
开始分别花更多时间陪孩子，而不是总在一起，也许可以分别带孩子去度周末或度假。
Start spending some more time with your kids separately as opposed to together, maybe going away for the weekend with the kids for vacation separately.
这样就不会那么突然。
So it's not as far.
你可以说，还记得我们一起去的时候吗？
And you can say, well, remember when we went?
那就像现在这样，以后也会是这样。
And that was you know, it'll be like that from now.
或者，哦，还记得你爸爸出差那一周吗？
Or, oh, remember when your dad was away for work for that week?
你明白吗？
You know?
记得那时候爸爸不在，然后他回来了。
Remember that was dad was and he comes back.
你总能见到他。
You always see him.
你怎么跟你的配偶说？
How do you tell your spouse?
嗯，我喜欢你用的这个词，就是“告诉你的配偶”。
Well, I like the way you parse that, which is tell your spouse.
因为人们经常问我，怎么开口提离婚？
Because people often say to me, how do you ask for divorce?
我总是告诉他们，如果你是在请求离婚，那你就做错了。
And I always tell them, you're doing it the wrong way if you're asking for a divorce.
我会说，第一，要确定，因为说出去的话收不回来。
I would say, one, be certain because you can't unring this bell.
就像，一旦你告诉你的伴侣我们要离婚了，你就真的收不回来了。
Like, once you tell your partner we're getting divorced, you can't really unring that bell.
所以别一时冲动就说出来。
So don't say it on a whim.
别在晚上谈这件事。
Don't have that conversation at night.
别在有人喝酒的时候谈。
Don't have it when anyone's been drinking.
别在假期谈。
Don't have it on holiday.
别在餐厅谈。
Don't have it at a restaurant.
有人觉得在餐厅谈是个好主意。
People think that having it at a restaurant's a good idea.
不知道是哪部电影里有人说，当你需要谈难事或者分手时，选在餐厅，因为对方不会大吵大闹。
I don't know what movie somebody said, oh, when you have a difficult conversation or break up with someone, do it in a restaurant because they can't make a scene.
不对。
No.
他们必须做的就是在公共场合保持镇定，因为人们都在看着，这很残忍。
What they have to do is, like, publicly keep their act together because people are watch it's cruel.
在餐厅里做这种事很残忍。
It's cruel to do it in a restaurant.
所以不要在那种公共场合做。
So don't do it in a public setting like that.
再说一次，不要在任何人喝酒、吸大麻或处于任何精神状态改变的情况下做。
Again, don't do it when anyone's been drinking, using cannabis, anything like that, any altered state of mind.
不要在晚上做。
Don't do it at night.
我觉得那不是做这种事的最佳时机。
I don't think that's the best time to do those kinds of things.
不要在节假日做。
Don't do it on the holiday.
在头十秒内说出来。
Say it in the first ten seconds.
不要铺垫。
No preamble.
就这样。
That's it.
就是说，别搞什么开场白。
Like, don't have a preamble.
就说一遍，干脆利落，然后别再说了。
Like, say it once and clean, and then stop talking.
我考虑了很久，我们的婚姻需要结束。
I have given this a lot of thought, and our marriage needs to end.
明白吗？
K?
这很难。
It's hard.
这些话很难说出口，但很明确。
Those are hard sentences to say, but they're clear.
它们是问句。
They're question.
我觉得也许我们需要……我明白你是想表现出同情心。
I think maybe we need to I understand you're trying to be compassionate.
给人虚假的希望，这根本算不上同情。
There's nothing compassionate about giving someone false hope.
如果你已经决定婚姻结束了，那婚姻就是结束了。
If you've decided the marriage is over, the marriage is over.
所以要在前十秒说出来，不要铺垫，然后闭嘴，因为给出理由就会招来反驳。
So say it in the first ten seconds, no preamble, then stop talking because reasons invite rebuttal.
所以不要给一堆理由。
So don't give a bunch of reasons.
因为如果你说，嗯，你知道，听着，我们不像以前那样说话了，因为你总不在家，一直在工作。
Because if you say, well, you know, listen, we don't talk like, well, we don't talk that we used to because you're never home and you're working all this time.
那我们就开始争论了，争论我们婚姻为什么破裂。
Now we're having a debate, a debate about the demise of our marriage.
我们早就该谈这个了。
We should have had that already.
我们本来可以在前两个阶段就谈的。
We could have had that in the first two phases.
如果现在你已经决定结束了，那就是结束了。
If we've decided now if you've decided now this is over, it's over.
顺便说一句，先承认你自己的问题。
By the way, own your share first.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
你知道，就像阿姆的电影《八英里》一样。
You know, it's like the movie eight mile with Eminem.
你知道，最后那场说唱对决的场景，他站起来，然后说，对。
You know, that scene at the end where, you know, the final rap battle, And and he gets up, and he's like, yeah.
我是个废物。
I am a bum.
我确实和我妈住在拖车里。
I do live in a trailer with my mom.
他把自己的所有缺点都说出来，然后说，来，告诉这些人一些他们不知道的关于我的事。
He says all the bad things about himself, and he goes, here, tell these people something they don't know about me.
我特别喜欢这个。
I love that.
我在法庭上经常这么做。
I do it in the courtroom all the time.
在这里也是一样。
Same thing in this.
先承认自己的问题。
Own your part first.
听好了。
Listen.
我不是一个好丈夫，对你来说。
I'm not a good husband to you.
我做得不好。
I'm not doing a good job of it.
我觉得我做不到。
I don't feel I can be.
这对我来说很清楚。
It's pretty clear to me.
我越来越清楚地意识到，我不是你需要结婚的那个人，我也无法让你得到你应得的幸福。
It's become increasingly clear to me that I'm just not who you need to be married to, and I'm not capable of making you happy in a way that you deserve to be happy.
先承认你自己的问题。
Own your piece of it first.
先为你的部分道歉。
Apologize for your piece of it first.
我知道我从来不想伤害你。
I know I never meant to hurt you.
我对此很确定。
I'm certain of that.
但我也知道我伤害了你，对此我深感抱歉。
But I also know that I have hurt you, and for that, I am profoundly sorry.
但我不会继续伤害你，让痛苦加倍。
But I'm not gonna double down on that pain by continuing to hurt you.
要清晰、简洁、准确、诚实，哪怕有点伤人。
Like, clear, concise, precise, honest, even if it's a little painful.
然后我想，你知道，制定一个四十八小时计划。
And then I think, you know, have a forty eight hour plan.
我知道这听起来有点冷酷和算计，但要知道你会住在哪里。
I know that sounds kinda cruel and tactical, but, like, know where you're gonna stay.
也许如果这个人需要空间，就给他们一些空间。
Maybe if this person needs space, give them some space.
要知道孩子们会在哪里。
Know where the kids are gonna be.
确保他们远离爆炸半径。
Make sure they're out of the blast radius.
比如说，你得想想你即将迎来一个重要的时刻，我觉得提前规划一下是明智的。
Like, try to give thought to the fact that you're about to have a big moment, and I think it's smart to plan about that.
这就像是你孩子将来对这件事记忆的第一页。
Like, it's page one of what your children's memory of this is gonna be.
所以我觉得，如果你有孩子，这真的很重要，即使没有孩子，事情的结局有时也会影响我们对整个事情的记忆。
So I think it's really important if you have kids, and even if you don't, like, how things end sometimes can shape how we remember them in their totality.
我觉得这不总是公平的，但确实是这样。
I don't think that's always fair, but I think it's true.
所以我觉得要清晰、干净、准确，但不要给对方留下争论的理由。
So I think clear, clean, precise, but don't invite reasons.
不要给对方反驳的机会。
Don't invite rebuttal.
木已成舟，但这并不是请求。
You can't unring this bell, but this is not a request.
这不是在商量。
This is not a negotiation.
我是在告诉你一个决定。
I'm telling you a decision.
就这样。
That's it.
有哪些事情需要考虑呢？
What are some of the things to think about?
因为你们住在一起。
Because you live together.
你们可能有孩子。
You have kids maybe.
他们可能在上学。
Maybe they're at school.
你们是在早上做这件事。
You're doing this in the morning.
我很喜欢你们告诉我们不要要求一个。
I love that you're telling us do not ask for one.
我很喜欢你用的那十三个字。
I love the 13 words you used.
这个问题我已经想了很多。
I have given this a lot of thought.
我们的婚姻需要结束。
Our marriage needs to end.
然后就不要再多说了。
And then stop talking.
别再说了。
Stop talking.
然后你的建议是承担你自己的责任。
And then your counsel is own your part of it.
我无法成为你值得的那个人。
I can't be the person that you deserve.
如果我坚持己见，只会让事情更糟，我道歉。
I am gonna make this worse If I double down, I apologize.
我从来都没想过要伤害你。
I never meant to hurt you.
你觉得有多少人其实心里清楚这件事会发生？
How often do you think people don't know this is coming?
或者他们，怎么说呢，被“突然袭击”了？
Or they get, quote, blindsided?
如果他们觉得突然，或者你觉得自己在婚姻里一直装睡？
If they're blindsided or you're like, you've been asleep in your marriage?
有一种盲目，还有一种可悲的盲目。
There's blindness and there's woeful blindness.
你懂吗？
You know?
有一种盲目是“天哪，我完全不知道”，还有一种盲目是“如果我当时愿意看，我本来能看到的，但我故意不去看，因为我不想看到我知道自己会看到的东西”。
There's the blindness of of, oh my god, I had no idea, and then there's the blindness of I would've if I was looking, and I intentionally didn't look because I didn't wanna see what I knew I would see if I looked.
所以我觉得这两种情况是不一样的。
So I think those are different things.
我希望你再说一遍，因为我觉得，我觉得你或者你爱的人需要听到这句话。
Want you to say that again because I I think I think you or the person that you love needs to hear that.
嗯，你知道，真正的盲目就是，我完全没看到这些，我觉得这在婚姻中很少见。
Well, you know, blindness really is that I I just didn't see at all any of this, and I think that rarely happens in marriages.
我觉得故意视而不见就是，我没有去看，而我没去看是因为我内心有一部分知道，如果我看了会看到什么，而且我知道那是我不想看到的东西。
I think willful blindness is I wasn't looking, and I wasn't looking because some part of me knew what I would see if I looked, and I knew it was something I didn't wanna see.
我知道如果我查你的消息，我会看到我不想看到的消息。
I knew if I checked your messages, I would see messages I didn't wanna see.
我知道如果我看看钱花到哪里去了，我不会喜欢看到它去了哪里。
I knew that if I looked at where the money was going, I wouldn't like to see where it was.
我知道如果我问，你开心吗？
I knew that if I asked, are you happy?
你真的爱我吗？还是不爱？
Do you really love me or not?
你知道，我以前分享过这个。
You know, I've I've shared this before.
我和前妻的婚姻结束，是因为我们当时一起坐在厨房的桌子旁。
My ex wife and I, our marriage ended because we were sitting at the kitchen table together.
那时候孩子们还很小。
The boys were very little boys.
他们一个四岁，一个六岁。
They were four and six.
他们在楼上睡着了，我们其实很在乎彼此。
They were upstairs asleep, and we really cared a lot about each other.
我们坐在厨房的桌子旁，我给她泡了杯咖啡，给自己泡了杯茶。
And we were sitting at the kitchen table, and I'd made her a cup of coffee and myself a cup of tea.
我看着她，说：“我能问你个问题吗？”
And I looked at her, and I said, can I ask you something?
她说：“可以。”
And she said, yeah.
我问：“你幸福吗？”
And I said, are you happy?
她只是看着我，然后说，你真的想现在谈这个吗？
And she just looked at me, and she went, do you really wanna do this now?
我说，我不知道。
And I said, I don't know.
我觉得现在谈也不差。
I think it's as bad a time as any.
她说，我也不觉得好。
And she said, not really.
我说，我也不觉得好。
And I said, I'm not either.
她说，那我们到底该怎么办？
And she said, well, what the hell do we do?
我说，我完全不知道。
And I said, I have no idea.
我说，我知道我爱你。
I said, I know I love you.
她说，是的。
And she said, yeah.
我也知道我爱你。
I know I love you too.
我说，但我觉得我们这样下去不行。
And I said, but I don't think this is working.
她说，我觉得如果光靠意志力就能让两个人相爱，那我们早就永远爱下去了。
And she's like, I think if sheer power of will could make two people love each other, we would love each other forever.
但是，是的，我也觉得这样下去不行。
But, yeah, I don't think this is working.
那是一个艰难篇章的开始，充满了泪水、愤怒和遗憾，但也是一段必须结束的关系的开始。
And it was the start of a very difficult chapter and moment, a lot of tears, moments of anger, moments of regret, but it was also the start of something that needed to end.
而那个结束，始于一个问题：你快乐吗？
And it ended it it it started that end started with a question, are you happy?
我想我问出那个问题的时候，心里其实已经有了答案。
And I think I knew I was asking that question because I knew the answer.
你知道吗？
You know?
她也知道我问这个问题，是因为她知道我心里已经有答案了。
And she knew I was asking that question because she knew I knew the answer.
如果她问我，我的答案就是，是的，我也不开心。
And the answer if she'd asked me was, you know, yeah.
我也不开心。
I'm not happy either.
她对我说，她说，我是爱尔兰人。
And she said to me, she's like, I'm Irish.
我会永远痛苦下去。
I'll stay miserable forever.
但事实是，这个问题必须由我来问，因为她不会问。
But the truth is, like, I was gonna be the one to ask it because she wasn't gonna be the one to ask it.
所以我想说，有时候对问题的视而不见，是我们告诉自己的一种很方便的谎言，假装没什么可看的。
So I would say that I think blindness to it is sometimes a very convenient lie that we tell ourselves that there's nothing to look at.
但每次有人跟我说，别打开那个抽屉，那反而成了我唯一想打开的抽屉，因为那个抽屉里肯定有有趣的东西。
But anytime somebody says to me, don't look in that drawer, that's the only drawer I wanna look in because that's the drawer there's something interesting in.
那为了孩子维持婚姻这个想法你怎么看？
What about the idea of staying in a marriage for the kids?
其实很多时候，为了孩子维持婚姻并不是人们真正在做的事情，因为你的孩子其实也在婚姻里。
So staying in a marriage for the children isn't something people are actually doing a lot of of the time, you know, because your children are in the marriage with you.
问题不在于他们的父母是否离婚了。
And the question is not, are their parents divorced?
他们不会记得你当时有没有留下来。
They're not gonna remember whether you stayed or not.
他们记住的是你的婚姻是什么样子的。
They're gonna remember what your marriage looked like.
他们一直在看着你做的每一件事。
Like, they're watching everything you're doing.
比如，我小时候我爸坐在那儿跟我说，你千万别抽烟。
Like, my dad sat there when I was a kid telling me, you definitely shouldn't smoke.
这对他不好，他还在抽烟呢。
It's bad for you while smoking a cigarette.
你可能会惊讶，我高中时就开始抽烟了，因为我能听到他说的话。
And you will be surprised to learn in high school I started smoking cigarettes because I could hear him.
他的行为比他说的话更有说服力，我根本不用听他说什么。
What he did spoke so loudly, I didn't have to listen to what he was saying.
我觉得你现在就是这样。
And I think that's what you're doing.
你在为你的孩子示范婚姻应该是什么样子。
You're modeling for your children what marriage should look like.
你希望你的孩子拥有你这样的婚姻吗？
Would you want your children to have your marriage?
这是一个非常难回答的问题，但对于那些还在犹豫和考虑阶段的人来说，这真的很重要。
That's a very hard question and a really important one for the precontemplative and contemplative stage.
如果我女儿的婚姻也像这样，我在她婚礼那天会开心吗？
If my daughter's marriage looked like this, would I be happy on her wedding day?
如果我能看一眼水晶球，看到我儿子十年后的婚姻就是这个样子，我会希望他结婚吗，还是我会说，嘿。
If I could look at a crystal ball and see this is what my son's marriage was gonna look like ten years in, would I want him to get married, or would I say, hey.
也许你应该重新考虑一下。
Maybe you should rethink this.
好。
Okay.
你为孩子们这样做，是因为你爱他们。
You do that for your kids because you love them.
那么，爱你自己吧。
Well, love yourself.
爱自己到足以正视这个问题，并问自己：这是我想给孩子们树立的榜样吗？
Love yourself enough to look at it and to say, is this what I wanna model for my children?
这是我丈夫对待我的方式吗？
Is this how my husband is treating me?
这是我想要女儿相信的男人对待女人的方式吗？
Is this how I want my daughter to believe a man should treat a woman?
我妻子是怎么跟我说话的？
How my wife speaks to me?
那是不是我儿子应该认为他的妻子应该这样跟他说话，或者这样跟他相处？
Is that how my son should think his wife should speak to him or how she should relate to him?
这是我们希望孩子们看到的爱吗？
Is this the love we want our children to see?
因为事实是，我在示范什么，我能在这次婚姻中改变它吗？
Because the truth is, what am I modeling, and can I change it in this marriage?
有可能改变吗？
Is it possible to change it?
不离婚并不能保护你的孩子。
You're not protecting your children by not getting divorced.
你选择的是他们将要学到的教训。
What you're choosing is what lesson they're gonna learn.
那么，他们能不能学到这样的教训：两个人可以结束婚姻，但仍然彼此有感情，仍然爱他们的孩子，并且以有效的方式共同养育孩子？
So can they learn the lesson that two people can end a marriage and still have affection for each other and still love their children and co parent in a productive way?
这是一个值得教给别人的宝贵教训：事情会结束，有时候结束也没关系，因为事情本来就该结束，好为新的东西腾出空间，因为每一个新的开始都源于某个旧的结束。
That's a valuable lesson to teach someone, that things end and that sometimes when they end, it's okay because things are supposed to end and make room for new things because every new beginning came from some other beginning's end.
难道这不是一个值得教给孩子的教训吗？
Like, isn't that a lesson worth teaching children?
所以，高冲突的家庭环境，不管是以夫妻为了孩子勉强在一起收场，还是离婚后依然充满冲突、共同抚养关系紧张，对孩子都不好。
So high conflict family dynamics, whether they end in people staying together and gutting it out for the kids or whether it's a conflict filled post divorce life where people have a contentious co parent relationship, yeah, it's bad for kids.
让孩子陷入忠诚困境，父母互相憎恨，还把对孩子的爱当作武器来攻击对方，这对孩子非常有害。
It's bad for kids to have loyalty binds and parents who hate each other and who weaponize their affection for the children against each other.
是的。
Yes.
对孩子来说太糟糕了。
Terrible for children.
这跟离婚本身关系不大。
That doesn't have a lot to do with divorce.
这取决于你如何处理离婚。
That has to do with how you approach divorce.
这取决于你如何处理你们的共同养育关系。
That has to do with how you approach your co parenting relationship.
但为了孩子而勉强在一起，很多时候，我真的不想这么做。
But staying together, quote, unquote, for the kids is very often, yeah, I just don't wanna do this.
我不想经历这种痛苦。
I don't wanna go through the pain of this.
做一件非常困难的事情永远没有好时机。
There's never a good time to do a really difficult thing.
但问题变成了，你是想等到孩子十几岁，等到他们已经在应对自己的挑战时，还是想更早一点处理这件事？再说，我们不知道是谁发现了水，但肯定不是鱼。
But the question becomes, do you want to wait until your children are teenagers, until your children are already dealing with their own challenges there, or do you wanna do it earlier on in the process when, again, we don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish?
比如，去问问那些三岁时父母就离婚的人。
Like, talk to somebody whose parents got divorced when they were three.
他们会说，对。
They're like, yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我妈住这边。
My mom lived here.
我爸住那边。
My dad lived there.
我其实不太记得我爸妈结过婚的样子。
I don't really remember my parents being married to each other.
所以我觉得离婚对孩子来说从来都不是没有代价的，但关键问题是，你在给孩子示范什么样的关系模式。
So I I think that divorce is never free for children ever, But the question of what relationship you're modeling for your children, I think, is the key question.
这比离婚对孩子是好是坏更重要。
More important than is divorce good or bad for kids.
对，衡量标准就是跳出你的婚姻，问问自己：如果我女儿处在这段婚姻里，我会不会真的为她高兴？
Well, the measuring stick of stepping outside your marriage and saying to yourself, would I actually be excited if my daughter was in this marriage?
还是说我会希望她离开？
Or would I want her out of it?
如果我儿子被另一半用我受到的这种方式对待，我会不会为他感到高兴？
Would I be excited if my son was married to a person that treated him the way I'm being treated?
还是我希望他离开这段婚姻？
Or would I want him out of it?
那就是你的答案。
That's your answer.
我想回到那个48小时计划。
I wanna go back to that forty eight hour plan.
你能不能告诉我们，在你思考的时候，清单上都有哪些事项？我打算说那13个字。
Can you just tell us what are the things on the checklist as you're thinking about, I'm gonna say the 13 words.
我要做一个决定，然后说：这就是我的决定。
I'm going to make a decision and say, this is my decision.
我不是在要求离婚。
I'm not asking for a divorce.
那个48小时计划是什么？
What is the forty eight hour plan?
因为你马上就要扔出一个重磅炸弹了。
Because you're about to drop a bomb.
首先，孩子在哪里？他们要去哪里？
It should be where first of all, where are the kids, and where are they gonna be?
他们是在爷爷奶奶家吗？
Are they grandma and grandpas?
他们是不是在一个远离爆炸范围的地方？
Are they someplace that they're out of the blast radius?
那样最理想。
That's ideal.
因为这次谈话之后，大家心情都不会好，孩子不在场是好事。
Because no one's gonna be feeling great after this conversation, and it's good the kids are out of the way of it.
第二，你不一定要和这个人回到同一个地方。
Two, you don't necessarily wanna go back to the same location with this person.
你最不适合帮助对方处理你提出分手、结束这段关系这件事。
You are the least qualified person to help someone navigate you breaking up with them, ending that relationship.
你做不到的，所以别试了。
You're not gonna be able to do that, so don't try.
而且如果你和那个人待在同一个地方，就会引发更多的对话。
And putting yourself in physical proximity to that person is inviting more conversation.
所以再说一次，别把他们赶出家门。
So again, don't kick them out of the house.
你自己去别的地方住。
Stay someplace else.
也许他们不想待在家里，因为那会让他们想起你在这的情况。
Maybe they don't wanna be in the house because it's gonna make them think about you in the situation.
没问题。
No problem.
我留在家里，照顾狗。
I'll stay in the house, take care of the dogs.
你可以去住酒店。
You can go to a hotel.
就是说，给对方提供一些选择。
Like, create options for a person.
好。
K.
那么，在这之前，你在实际操作上应该做哪些准备呢？
Now what are some things logistically you should have done before this?
把一些重要的财务文件复印一份，或者至少知道它们放在哪里。
Make copies of some of the important financial documents or at least know where things are.
比如，要考虑到对方可能会反应很激烈。
Like, consider the possibility that this person might react poorly.
如果真的那样，你会被切断哪些资源的访问权限？
And if they did, what would you be cut off from access to?
所以我手头有没有一些钱？
So do I have some money?
有一些能用的钱，要么用来请律师，要么最好在摊牌之前就已经和律师谈过了。
Some access to money, either to get counsel or if I haven't already ideally talked to a lawyer before I drop that bomb.
我手头有什么可用的资源？
What do I have available to me?
还有，再说一次，让自己远离这个人的视线。
And, also, again, get yourself out of this person's path.
比如，让这个人先冷静一下，或者先闹一阵子再冷静，那四十八小时应该非常讲究策略。
Like, let this person calm a little bit or fester a little before they calm, and it should be very logistical, that forty eight hour period.
那段时间应该主要考虑怎么让孩子和彼此都远离爆炸范围，让大家开始接受这件事已经发生了。
It should be very much about how do we keep the kids and each other out of the blast range for everybody to start internalizing that this thing just happened.
你看。
Look.
人生中有一些重要的节点。
There's punctuation marks in life.
孩子出生。
Your kid is born.
结婚。
You get married.
或者什么大事。
Some big thing.
这就是一个重要的转折点。
This is a punctuation mark.
这之后发生的一切，就是这之后的一切。
Everything that comes after this is everything that comes after this.
所以从那一刻起，所有事情都重新开始了。
So everything that happens is from now on at that point.
所以你真的要把它当作一个分水岭，并且以那种敬畏之心去对待它。
So you have to really see it as that and treat it with that kind of reverence.
我觉得你必须有各种账号的登录权限，还要有备份，这非常重要。
I think it's incredibly important that you have logins to thing, that you have backups.
对。
Yes.
因为你真的不知道别人会有什么反应。
Because you don't actually know how somebody's gonna react.
没错。
No.
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