今日你需要听到的话：希望的力量

他们花了十分钟才给他解开镣铐。

It took them ten minutes to unchain him.

他朝我走过来，我感到无比震撼。

And he walked over to me, and I was so overwhelmed.

我开始向他道歉。

I just started to apologize.

我说：我很抱歉。

I said, I'm so sorry.

我只是一个法学院的学生。

I'm just a law student.

我对死刑一无所知。

I don't know anything about the death penalty.

我对刑事程序一无所知。

I don't know anything about criminal procedure.

我对上诉程序、民事程序都一无所知。

I don't know anything about appellate procedure, civil procedure.

然后我想起了我该说的话，告诉你们，你们在接下来的一年里不会面临死刑。

And then I remembered what I was supposed to say, said, but they sent me down here to tell you that you're not at risk of execution anytime in the next year.

当我这么说时，那个男人说：等等，等等，再说一遍。

And when I said that, the man said, wait, wait, wait, say that again.

我说：你在接下来的一年里不会面临死刑。

I said, you're not at risk of execution anytime in the next year.

那个男人说：等等。

And the man said, wait.

等等。

Wait.

再说一遍。

Say that again.

我说：你在接下来的一年里不会面临死刑。

I said, you're not at risk of execution anytime in the next year.

就在那时，这个男人拥抱了我，并说：谢谢。

And that's when this man hugged me, and he said, thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

他说：‘你是我在死囚牢房待了两年以来，第一个既不是死囚也不是狱警的人。’

He said, you're the first person I've met in the two years I've been on death row who's not a death row prisoner or death row guard.

他说：‘我一直在和妻子孩子通话，但一直没让他们来看我，因为我害怕会收到执行日期，不想让他们承受这个。’

He said, I've been talking to my wife and kids, but I haven't let them come and visit because I was afraid I'd have an execution date, and I don't want them to have to deal with that.

他说：‘现在，因为你的缘故，我要去见我的妻子了。’

He said, now because of you, I'm gonna see my wife.

我要去见我的孩子们。

I'm gonna see my kids.

我无法相信，即使我如此无知，仅仅靠近他们，就能对别人生活的质量产生如此大的影响。

And I couldn't believe how even in my ignorance, just being proximate could have an impact on the quality of someone's life.

后来我发现，我和那个男人年龄完全一样。

That man and I turned out we're exactly the same age.

我们出生日期相同，月份相同，日子相同，年份也相同。

We had the same birth date, same month, same day, same year.

他开始问我关于我生活的问题。

He started asking me questions about my life.

我也问他关于他生活的问题，我们就这样自然地聊了起来，我忘了自己是个法学院学生。

I asked him questions about his life, and we just fell into this conversation, and I forgot I was a law student.

我忘了他是个被判处死刑的囚犯。

I forgot he was a condemned person on death row.

我们只是两个普通人在聊天。

We were just two people talking.

原本安排的会面只有一小时，但我们一直聊个不停。

And the visit was only scheduled for an hour, but we kept talking.

我完全忘记了时间。

I just lost track of time.

一小时变成了两小时，两小时又变成了三小时。

And one hour turned to two hours, two hours turned to three hours.

狱警在等我结束谈话。

The guards were waiting for me to finish.

三个小时后，他们生气了，再也忍不下去了。

And after three hours, they got angry, and they couldn't take it anymore.

于是他们冲进房间，抓住那个人，把他摔到墙上。

So they came bursting into the room, and they grabbed this man, and they threw him against the wall.

他们把他的手臂往后拉。

They pulled his arms back.

他们把 handcuffs 紧紧地铐在他的手腕上。

They put the handcuffs on his wrist really tightly.

他们把链条绕在他的腰上。

They wrapped the chain around his waist.

他们对待他非常粗暴。

They were treating very roughly.

他们重新给他戴上脚镣时，我恳求他们轻一点。

They put the shackles back on his ankles, and I begged them to be gentle.

我说，你看。

I said, look.

这不是他的错。

It's not his fault.

是我的错。

It's my fault.

他什么都没做错，但他们无视了我。

He didn't do anything wrong, but they ignored me.

然后他们开始推着这个人往门口走，用力推他，这让我很不安。

Then they started shoving this man toward the door, really pushing him, and it upset me.

我说，请你们别这样。

I said, please, you don't have to do that.

他什么都没做错，但他们无视了我。

He didn't do anything wrong, but they ignored me.

他们把那个人推到门口附近时，我永远忘不了他靠近门时站稳了脚。

And they got that man near the door, and I'll never forget how when he got near the door, he planted his feet.

当他们试图把他推过门时，他纹丝不动。

And when they tried to shove him through the door, he didn't move.

然后他转向我，看着我说：布莱恩，别为这事担心。

And then he turned to me, he looked at me, and he said, Brian, don't worry about this.

你只管回来就行。

You just come back.

接着，他做了一件我永远都不会忘记的事。

And then he did this thing I'll never ever forget.

我站在那里，看着他闭上眼睛，仰起头，然后开始唱歌。

I stood there, and I watched him close his eyes, throw his head back, and then he started to sing.

他开始唱一首圣诗。

And he started singing this hymn.

他唱道：我正奋力向上前行，每日都在攀登新的高度，依然祷告着向前迈进，然后他说：主啊，求你将我的脚安置在更高的磐石上。

He started singing, I'm pressing on the upward way, new heights I'm gaining every day, still praying as I'm onward bound, and then he said, Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.

所有人都停了下来。

Everybody stopped.

然后警卫们恢复过来，开始把他推下走廊，你能听到链条随着他们推他而叮当作响，但你仍能听见这位死刑犯唱着关于更高之地的歌。

And then the guards recovered, and they started pushing him down the hallway, and you could hear the chains clanging as they pushed him down the hallway, but you could hear this condemned man singing about higher ground.

当我听到那首歌，听到他歌唱时，我的一切就此改变。

When I heard that song, when I heard him sing, that's when everything changed for me.

就在那一刻，我明白了我想要帮助那些被判死刑的人抵达更高之地。

That was the moment that I knew I wanted to help condemned people get to higher ground.

但我也在那一刻意识到，我通往更高之地的旅程将与他的旅程紧密相连。

But I also knew at that moment that my journey to higher ground was gonna be tied to his journey.

当我回到哈佛法学院时，我已经彻底改变了。

And when I went back to Harvard Law School, I was completely changed.

从那以后，你别想把我从法学院图书馆赶出来，因为我必须了解关于联邦制、喜剧、上诉程序、刑事程序、人身保护令以及所有程序性原则的一切。

You couldn't get me out of the law school library after that because I needed to know everything about federalism and comedy and appellate procedure and criminal procedure and habeas corpus and all of the procedural doctrines.

我需要成为法律的专家，因为我想要帮助那些被判死刑的人抵达更高之地。

I needed to become a master of the law because I wanted to help condemned people get to higher ground.

如今四十年过去了，有时人们会问：你是怎么帮助这么多人获得宽恕的？

Now forty years later, sometimes people say, well, how have you helped all these people get relief?

你是怎么在最高法院赢得这些案件的？

How have you won these cases at the Supreme Court?

我知道他们希望我这么说，因为我勤奋努力，我们尽力做到聪明、有策略，我们确实也努力做到聪明、有策略、勤奋工作。

And I know they want me to say it because I'm hardworking, we try to be smart, we try to be tactical, and we do try to be tactical and smart and work hard.

但事实是，在我四十年的律师生涯中，如果我帮助了任何人，那并不是因为我勤奋、聪明或有策略。

But the truth is is that if I've helped anybody during my forty years as a lawyer, it's not because I'm hardworking or smart or tactical.

而是因为我足够靠近一位被判处死刑的人，听到了他的歌声。

It's because I got close enough to a condemned man to hear his song.

我相信，在这个国家的监狱和拘留所里，仍然有歌声在继续唱响。

And I believe that there are songs still being sung in jails and prisons all across this country.

我认为，在贫困、绝望和压迫存在的地方，仍然有歌声在传唱。

I think in places where there's poverty and despair and oppression, there are songs still being sung.

当我们足够靠近，去聆听这些歌声时，这些旋律会告诉我们一些关于人性本质的东西。

And when we get close enough to hear those songs, those melodies teach us something about what being human is about.

它们也会告诉我们一些关于正义的本质。

They teach us something about what justice is about.

我认为，我们不仅应该靠近他人以帮助他们，更应该靠近他人来帮助自己。

And I think we should get proximate not just to help other people, I think we should get proximate to help ourselves.

因为这是我人生中收到的最伟大的礼物——置身于正义与谴责之中，站在被定罪者、被憎恨者和被边缘化者身旁，见证爱的力量创造出美好，而这正是当我们致力于亲近、致力于看见每个人身上的人性与尊严时所发生的事。

Because it's been the greatest gift that someone could give to me, to be in the midst of justice and condemnation, to stand next to the condemned and the hated and disfavored, and to see the power of love create something beautiful, which is what happens when we are committed to proximity, when we're committed to seeing the humanity and dignity of every human being.

你祖母说过的一件事是，你无法从远处理解重要的事情。

One of the things that your grandmother said is that you can't understand important things from a distance.

你必须靠近。

You have to get close.

这对你来说意味着什么？

What does that mean to you?

我相信，当我们接近穷人、被排斥者和被边缘化者时，我们会听到一些 otherwise 听不到的声音。

I do believe that when we are proximate, to the poor, to the excluded, to the marginalized, we hear things we won't otherwise hear.

我们会看到一些 otherwise 看不到的东西。

We see things that we won't otherwise see.

我认为，这不仅仅是应对贫困和不公正的方式。

And I don't think it's just the way we deal with poverty and injustice.

我认为，在生活中，要想成为一个好的领导者、好的父母、好的老师，我们必须贴近我们想要服务的人。

I think in life, to be a good leader, to be a good parent, to be a good teacher, We have to be close to the people we are trying to serve.

我们必须理解他们所看到的、所听到的。

We have to understand what they're seeing, what they're hearing.

当我们远离时，就很难做到这一点。

And when we're distant, we can't do that as well.

我们会做出评判。

We judge.

我们会做出评判。

We judge.

要贴近，我们就必须有时选择靠近那些正在挣扎的人、那些跌倒的人，以及那些需要我们关注的世界问题。

To get proximate, we have to sometimes choose to get closer to people who are struggling, people who have fallen down, problems in the world that need our attention.

我们不会对世界的问题视而不见，而是有足够的品格、慷慨和勇气，真正前往人们受苦和挣扎的地方，尽我们所能提供帮助。

We don't shield ourselves from the world's problems, but we have enough character and enough generosity and enough courage that we will actually go places where people are suffering and struggling and help if we can help.

我认为这是我们更美好的本性。

I think it is our better nature.

我认为这是我们的本能。

I think it is our hardwiring.

我特别欣赏你的一点是，每次听你讲话或读你写的东西，你都会让我想起我内心更美好的一面，以及我们共同的更美好的一面。

And one of the things I love about you is every time I listen to you or every time I read something that you write, you remind me of my better nature, of our collective better nature.

很高兴你在这里。

I am so glad that you're here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你，布莱恩。

Thank you, Brian.

现在是个很好的时机，让我们暂停一下，让我们的赞助商说几句话。

This feels like a really good time to hit the pause button and give our sponsors a chance to share a few words.

我也想请你把这段内容分享给你关心的人。

And I also wanna give you a chance to share this with people that you care about.

我的意思是，能经历这样一场非凡的对话真是太棒了。

I mean, what a remarkable conversation to experience.

我们才刚刚开始，所以别走开。

And we're just getting started, so don't go anywhere.

短暂休息后，布莱恩·史蒂文森和我将在这里等你。

After this short break, Brian Stevenson and I will be waiting for you.

我们那儿见。

We'll see you there.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

你的朋友，梅尔·罗宾斯。

It's your buddy, Mel Robbins.

今天，你和我有幸能与布莱恩·史蒂文森坐在一起，向他学习。

Today, you and I have the extraordinary honor of getting to sit with and learn from Brian Stevenson.

你知道吗，在你的书里，你在第309页写下了这段非常美妙的话。

You know, in your book, you have this beautiful, beautiful thing that you write on page three zero nine.

我提醒人们，当那个被指控通奸的妇人被带到耶稣面前时，他对那些想用石头砸死她的控告者说：‘你们中间谁是没有罪的，就可以先拿石头打她。’

I remind people that when the woman accused of adultery was brought to Jesus, he told the accusers who wanted to stone her to death, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

那些控告妇人的人一个个退去了，耶稣宽恕了她，并劝她不要再犯罪。

The woman's accusers retreated, and Jesus forgave her and urged her to sin no more.

但今天，我们的自以为义、恐惧和愤怒，甚至让基督徒都向跌倒的人扔石头，即使我们知道应该宽恕或展现同情。

But today, our self righteousness, our fear, and our anger have caused even the Christians to hurl stones at people who fall down, even when we know we should forgive or show compassion.

我告诉会众，我们不能只是旁观这一切发生。

I told the congregation that we can't simply watch that happen.

我告诉他们，我们必须成为接石头的人。

I told them we have to be a stone catcher.

以接石头者的身份走过人生，意味着什么？

What does it mean to walk through life as a stone catcher?

这可能会让人感到艰难和疲惫，但同时也非常有力量。

It can feel challenging and exhausting, but it's also really empowering.

如果我们有能力去接住石头，运用这种能力，我们就不仅是在帮助那个本可能成为暴力目标的人，也在帮助那个扔石头的人。

If we have the ability to catch a stone, to exercise that ability, and to know we're not only helping the person who would have been the target of that violence, but we're also helping the person who threw the stone.

因为他们尚未意识到，要走向救赎，走向恩典，走向我们常谈论的被爱的共同体。

Because what they don't realize yet is that to get to redemption, to get to grace, to get to the the beloved community that we talk so much about.

我们不能因为愤怒和恐惧而彼此投掷石头。

We can't throw stones at one another because we're angry and afraid.

有时人们会感到不堪重负，直到他们捡起石头并扔出去，才想起这一点。

And sometimes people get overwhelmed and they can't remember that until they pick the stone up and they throw it.

我不仅想帮助被投掷石头的人，也想帮助那些投掷石头的人，让他们有机会从严厉、暴力的评判中恢复过来，让这种评判的后果不那么严重。

And I not only wanna help the person they're throwing the stone at, but I wanna help them have the opportunity to recover from the mistake of harsh judgment, of violent judgment against someone in a way that's less consequential.

而且，我想相信的是，如果你接住了一块石头，接下来接住下一块就会变得更容易，即使它更大。

And, you know, one of the things that I'd like to believe is that if you catch one stone, it becomes easier to catch the next one, even though it's bigger.

这将成为一种生活方式。

It becomes a way of life.

这将成为一种与世界相处的方式。

It becomes a way of moving through the world.

我很感激有人曾为我接住过石头，你知道的。

And and I'm grateful that people have caught stones for me, you know.

你知道吗，我在一个贫穷且种族隔离的社区长大，小时候我上的是一所有色人种学校。

You know, growing up in a poor, racially segregated community, you know, I started my education in a color school when I was a little boy.

他们不让黑人孩子上公立学校。

They didn't let black children attend the public schools.

在我父亲十几岁的时候，我们县根本没有给黑人设立的高中，所以他没能上高中。

There were no high schools for black people in our county when my dad was a teenager, so he couldn't go to high school.

因此，我是在这样一个贫穷的社区长大的，那里大多数成年人没有高中文凭，不是因为他们不聪明或不努力，而是因为当时根本就没有给黑人设立的高中。

So I was raised in this poor community where most of the adults didn't have high school degrees, not because they weren't smart or hardworking, but there literally were no high schools for black people.

后来，一些律师来到我们的社区，推动他们向公立学校开放，正是因为这些律师走近了像我这样的贫困孩子，我才得以进入公立学校。

And then lawyers came into our community and made them open up to public schools, and because these lawyers got proximate to poor kids like me, I got to go to the public schools.

布莱恩，你多大了？

How old are you, Brian?

我65岁。

I am 65.

你看，想到在美国还有人只活了65岁，这真是令人震惊。

See, I think it is shocking to just consider that there are people in The United States, you're only 65 years old.

没错。

That's right.

当你上小学的时候，你只比我大十岁。

And when you were in elementary school, you're you're you're just ten years older than

我。

me.

是的。

Yeah.

你上的是为有色儿童设立的隔离小学。

You were in an elementary school, segregated for colored children.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这真让我震惊，我们竟然忘记了如此近在咫尺的历史，以及它至今仍在产生的影响。

I mean, that is it is so just shocking to me how we have forgotten the history that is even so recent and the ways it's playing out to this day.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这太对了，梅尔。

I I think that's so true, Mel.

而且我认为我们一直容忍的一个失败，就是我们不愿记住、不愿诚实地面对这段历史。

And I do think one of the failures we have tolerated is our unwillingness to remember, to confront honestly this history.

在全国其他地区，有些人比我小十五岁，直到二十世纪七十年代末才经历学校融合与教育，因为当时存在极大的抵制。

There are people in other parts of the country who were fifteen years younger than me, who didn't experience integration and education until the nineteen seventies, late nineteen seventies, because there was so much resistance to this.

就连在我所在的县——80%是白人，20%是黑人——如果就是否让布莱恩·史蒂文森进入公立学校进行投票，我们也会输掉，因为大多数人都不希望这种融合。

And the thing that even in my county, which was 80% white and 20% black, if you had a vote on whether to let Brian Stevenson into the public schools, we would have lost the vote Because the majority of people didn't want that integration.

正是律师们对法治的坚定维护，才最终让这些学校的门向所有人敞开，这正是我最终选择成为律师的原因：因为运用法治可以帮助被边缘化的人、帮助受排斥的人、帮助那些别人想驱逐的人。

It took a commitment to the rule of law that these lawyers enforced for those school doors to open, which is why I ultimately became a lawyer because there was a power in using the rule of law to help disfavored people, to help marginalized people, to help people who people wanted to exclude.

当我八十年代法学院毕业时，那些被送进监狱和监牢的人群，尤其是那些被判处死刑、面临处决的人，正是我觉得最需要法治保护的人。

And when I finished law school in the eighties, this population of people being sent to jails and prisons, and most specifically, the people who were being condemned to death facing execution were the people who I felt were most in need of the rule of law.

还有正义。

And justice.

还有正义。

And justice.

还有同情心。

And compassion.

所有这些。

All of that.

因为他们一生中大多从未得到过。

Because they hadn't gotten it most of their life.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

对我来说，接住石头就像拥抱那些正在挣扎、跌倒、不确定自己能否挺过去的人。

And for me, stone catching is like embracing people who are struggling, who are falling down, who are not sure they can do it.

这是我们每个人都获得的礼物。

And it's the gift we all get.

我的意思是，我深信的一点是，无论你的教育程度如何，无论你住在哪里，无论你多大年纪，无论你对这件事或那件事持什么看法，我们每个人都有能力靠近那些跌倒、受苦、挣扎、不堪重负的人，拥抱他们，肯定他们的本性和尊严。

I mean, one of the things I'm persuaded is that no matter what your education level, no matter where you live, no matter how old you are, no matter what you think about this or that, we all have the capacity to get close to someone who's fallen down, who's suffering, who's struggling, who's overwhelmed, and wrap our arms around them and affirm their humanity and their dignity.

对我来说，这就是接住石头的全部意义。

For me, that's what stone catching is all about.

这是在肯定那些人性与尊严受到质疑、对自身人性与尊严感到绝望的人们的人性与尊严。

It's about affirming the humanity and the dignity of the people whose humanity and dignity is being questioned, who have become hopeless and despairing about their humanity and dignity.

作为这种石块接住行为和这种肯定的接受者，我别无选择，只能将这份善意传递给我所遇到的每一个人。

And as the recipient of that kind of stone catching and that kind of affirmation, I don't feel any choice but to participate in sharing that with the people I encounter.

以这种视角走过我的人生，让我经历了非凡的转变——我明白，仅凭一个人生命之书中的某一段就去评判他，根本不可能了解完整的故事。

It has been extraordinarily transformative for me to move through my life with this lens of understanding that judging somebody from one paragraph in the book of their life, there's no way you can get the whole story.

当你将这一切置于这个人所必须承受或经历的全部背景中时，给予他人仁慈、同情、理解与恩典就会变得更容易。

And that it's easier to give people mercy and compassion and understanding and grace when you put it in the context of everything that this person has had to endure or experience.

这并不能为人们的行为开脱，但它确实会让你成为一个更具同情心与宽容心的人。

Does not justify what people do, but it certainly makes you a person that has more compassion and grace.

这让我想到你常提到的一句话：我们每个人都不只是自己做过最糟糕的事。

And it brings me to something that you often say, which is each of us is more than the worst thing we've done.

对你来说，这句话意味着什么？

What does that mean to you?

这意味着，如果一个人撒了谎，他并不只是一个骗子。

It means that if someone tells a lie, they're not just a liar.

如果有人拿了不属于自己的东西，他不仅仅是一个小偷。

If someone takes something that doesn't belong to them, they're not just a thief.

我认为，即使你杀了人，你也不仅仅是一个杀人犯，我们不应当只因这一件坏事而被定义。

I think even if you kill someone, you're not just a killer, and we shouldn't be judged by just that one bad act.

我认为，我们都不愿意被简化为一生中最糟糕的行为。

I think we all don't wanna be reduced to the worst thing we've ever done.

没有人愿意被一个错误、一个谎言或一次不良反应所囚禁。

No human being wants to be imprisoned by one mistake, one falsehood, one bad reaction.

我们迫切渴望被看作比这更丰富、更完整的人。

We desperately yearn to be seen as something more than that.

我认为，值得去拥抱一种能让这种观念塑造我们思维的世界观。

And I think it's worth committing to a worldview that allows that to shape our thinking.

在我们众多的制度和许多地方，我们都没有做到这一点。

And in so many of our institutions, in so many places, we've we've not done that.

我们的刑事司法系统似乎深深植根于这样一种观念：你只能是你被指控的罪行。

Our our criminal justice system is a system that seems very much rooted in this idea that you can only be the crime you've been accused of.

我认为这导致了大量不公。

And I think that leads to a lot of injustice.

它导致了对人们真实面貌的诸多误判。

It leads to a lot of misjudgment about who people are.

对我来说，坚持这样一个理念非常重要：我们每个人都不只是自己做过的最糟糕的事，因为我并不想因自己做过最糟的事而被评判，但我也意识到，我必须与他人共享这一认知。

I mean, for me, it's been important to commit to this concept that we're all more than the worst thing we've ever done because I I don't wanna be judged by the worst things I've done, but I also realize I have to share that with other people.

长期以来，在这个国家，当我们聆听立法者谈论制定新的刑罚时，他们说话的方式仿佛能将罪行本身关进监狱。

It's interesting in this country for a long time, we had legislators that when you listen to them talk about creating new sentences and punishments, they talk as if they can put crimes in prison.

我憎恨那种罪行，所以我希望判它二十年。

I hate that crime, so I wanna give that twenty years.

我憎恨那种罪行。

I hate that crime.

我想判它五十年。

I wanna give it fifty years.

他们说话的样子，仿佛真能把罪行关进监狱，判它终身监禁，做各种其他处置，但实际上，我们根本无法把罪行关进监狱。

And they're talking as if they have the ability to put a crime in prison, to put it in there for life and all of these other things, but we don't have the ability to put crimes in prison.

我们只能把人关进监狱，而人并不是罪行。

We can only put people in prison, and people are not crimes.

他们可能犯下罪行，我们可以希望他们为所犯的罪行承担责任。

They can commit crimes, and we could want to hold them accountable for the crimes they've committed.

但人和罪行是有区别的。

But there's a difference between a person and a crime.

当我们关注的是人本身，对话往往会发生变化。

And when we focus on the person, the conversation tends to shift.

我们会以不同的方式思考。

We tend to think differently.

一位被虐待了二十年、遭受了难以想象的痛苦和羞辱的女性，她最终即使以暴力回应，也不仅仅是一个暴力犯罪者。

A woman who's been abused for twenty years and suffered just unimaginable pain and humiliation at the hands of someone who just thought they could do whatever they want, who finally reacts even violently, is not just a violent offender.

她是一个在努力应对数十年虐待和不公的人。

She is someone who is trying to manage decades of abuse and mistreatment.

如果我们法律和政策不能反映她远不止那个暴力瞬间、那个反应瞬间这一事实，那么我们就会做出不公正的事。

And if our laws and our policies don't reflect the fact that she is more than that moment of violence, that moment of reaction, then we're gonna do something unjust.

我们会判她终身监禁，不得假释。

We're going to put her in prison for life without parole.

我们甚至可能判处她死刑。

We may even sentence her to death.

我们把她简化为她最恶劣的行为。

We have reduced her to this worse act.

我从未代理过仅因其犯罪行为而被定义的人。

I've never represented anybody who was only the crime they've committed.

这正是难以明确表达这一理念的困难所在：我们每个人都不只是自己做过最糟糕的事。

And that's the difficulty of not being more explicit about this concept that we are all more than the worst thing we've ever done.

你知道，我认为另一件非常重要的事是，这甚至不仅仅是说你比自己做过最糟糕的事更复杂。

You know, and the other thing that I think is really important, because I think about this a lot, which is it's not even that you're more than the worst thing you've ever done.

我还相信，你可以超越自己做过最糟糕的事。

I also believe you can become more than the worst thing you've ever done.

我喜欢这个区别，因为我从未真正这样想过：我们试图把罪行关进监狱。

And I love the distinction because I've never really thought about it that way, that we are trying to put a crime in prison.

我们只关注了惩罚和管控的部分。

That all we've focused on is the punishment and containment piece.

我们没有关注人的部分，没有帮助他们恢复完整，以至于当他们服刑结束后，能够真正被改造好，重新融入生活。

We have not focused on the person piece and making someone whole so that if they are released after serving their sentence, they have been rehabilitated so they can step back into life.

我的意思是，我对于我们在他们服刑完毕后，还设置这么多障碍，继续评判和惩罚他们，使他们更难过上能够贡献社会、成为改过自新的人的生活，感到无比震惊。

I mean, I also am horrified by how we then put up so many obstacles and continue to judge and punish people after they have served the sentence for the crime, and made it even harder for them to live a life where they can contribute and be somebody that has done the time, they have changed who they are.

因为显然，如果你听这个节目，你就知道我坚信，任何人都有可能变得更好。

Because clearly, if you listen to this show, you know that I am a person who believes that absolutely anybody can become a better person.

是的。

Absolutely.

没错。

Absolutely.

我觉得我的工作最令人欣慰的地方，就是每天都能在我所代理的当事人身上看到这一点。

And I think what's been very gratifying about my work is that I see that play out every day in the clients that I represent.

我代理了很多孩子。

I represent a lot of children.

当你十三四岁的时候，却被判处终身监禁并关押在成人监狱，人们就会默认你一定很恶劣、不可救药。

And when you are 13 or 14 and you end up being sentenced to life in prison in an adult facility, there's a presumption that you must be awful and irredeemable.

但我认为这是一种错误。

And I just think that's a mistake.

我认为儿童与成年人的区别在于，他们始终处于不断变化的状态。

I think what distinguishes children from adults is that they're in a constant state of change.

他们在十年后的身体、情感、心理和生理上，都不会是现在的样子。

They are not who they are going to be in a decade physically, emotionally, psychologically, biologically.

我们在青春期会不断变化，但许多州却阻止了这种变化的发生。

We change as we go through adolescence, and and in many states, don't permit that change to take place.

在美国，有13个州对将儿童作为成人审判没有设定最低年龄限制。

We have 13 states in The United States that have no minimum age for trying a child as an adult.

因此，我有时会代理八九岁的孩子，他们面临的监禁刑期长达五十年甚至六十年。

So I represent eight and nine year old kids sometimes who are facing fifty and sixty year prison sentences.

八九岁的孩子。

Eight and nine year old kids.

八岁和九岁的孩子。

Eight and nine year old children.

我们有这13个州，那里没有最低年龄限制。

We have these 13 states where there's no minimum age.

这些法律大约四十年前生效时，我开始接到一些父母的电话，他们的五岁和六岁孩子因为在幼儿园的行为被戴上手铐。

When these laws took effect about forty years ago, I started getting calls from parents of five and six year old children who were being put in handcuffs in kindergarten for behaviors.

这是一种零容忍的思维模式，认为孩子身上就会有犯罪。

It was this kind of zero tolerance, this mindset that children are can just be crimes.

我认为你提到的改变能力，在这个群体中对我来说最为显著，因为我很快意识到，当我为年幼的孩子辩护时，我不能只做一个律师。

And I think what you're saying about the capacity for change is most dramatic in that population for me because one of the things I quickly learned is that when I represent young kids, I can't just be a lawyer.

我必须扮演父母、兄长、辅导员和朋友的角色，因为这些身处敌意和暴力环境中孩子，依然渴望被关爱。

I've got to be a parent and a brother and a counselor and a friend because children in these really hostile violent environments are still yearning for affection.

他们依然渴望一些能让他们感到自己有价值的东西。

They're still yearning for something that makes them feel valuable.

所以我很快意识到，我那些年幼的当事人总是希望我每周都去看望他们。

And so one of the things I quickly realized is that my young plants were constantly wanting me to visit them, like, every week.

他们被关在几百英里外的监狱里，我知道我没法经常去看他们，于是我开始做一件事：我说，我会寄一本书给你。

And they'd be in prisons, you know, hundreds of miles away, and I was like, you know, I can't so I started doing this thing where I would say, I'm gonna send you a book.

你读完这本书后，我就来和你讨论它。

When you read the book, I will come and see you to talk about it.

我的许多客户原本都是很不愿意读书的，有些人阅读能力也不好，但他们却开始热衷于阅读。

And my clients, who were many of them very reluctant readers, some of them not good readers, started this whole reading thing.

我会寄给他们越来越难的书，一开始是我选书，后来我开始让他们自己选书。

And I would send them harder and harder books, and I would pick the books, and then I started letting them pick the books.

有一位客户在14岁时被判处终身监禁，而我已经为他辩护了整整三十年。

A client who was sentenced to life when he was 14, and I've now represented him for for thirty years.

几年前的一个深夜，他给我打了电话，我有点不高兴，因为他是不该在那么晚打电话的。

And a couple of years ago, he called me late at night, and I was a little kind of provoked because he's not supposed to call that late.

但我还是接了电话，问他：这么晚打电话是为什么？

But I picked up, and I said, why are you calling so late?

他说：出紧急情况了。

He says, it's an emergency.

我说，什么紧急情况？

I said, what's the emergency?

他说，我读完你寄给我的那本书了，你得来看看我。

He said, I finished the book that you sent me, you have to come and see me.

我说，我都想不起来寄给你哪本书了。

I said, I don't even remember what book I sent you.

然后他告诉我，他刚读完陀思妥耶夫斯基的《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》，那是我大学时最爱的一本书。

And then he told me that he had just finished reading The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoyevsky, my favorite book in college.

这本书彻底改变了我的思维方式。

It was a book that just changed my thinking.

当他兴奋地谈起书中他想讨论的种种内容时，我深受触动。

And when he started talking excitedly about all of the things he wanted to discuss that he read in this book, it just moved me so much.

而我此刻正和一个被世人认为无可救药、毫无希望、无法救赎的人交谈，他却在谈论自己多么喜爱书中那些始终充满同情、在困境中挣扎的角色。

And here I was talking to someone who people think is beyond redemption, beyond hope, beyond restoration, and he's talking about how much he loves the characters in this book who are constantly being compassionate, who are navigating difficulty.

我认为，这就是相信我们能够变得更好的馈赠。

And I think that's the gift of believing that we can become better.

布莱恩，你在你的书里写到了他，我想读一读他入狱期间写的那首诗。

Brian, you wrote about him in your book, and I wanna read the poem that he wrote while he was in prison.

这是你那本非凡的著作《正义的慈悲》第147页，诗名为《未哭出的泪水》。

This is page one forty seven from your remarkable book, Just Mercy, and the poems entitled Uncried Tears.

想象那些因痛苦而被禁锢、等待从你双眼的窗棂中逃逸的未流下的泪滴。

Imagine teardrops left uncried from pain trapped inside, waiting to escape through the windows of your eyes.

你们为何不让我们出去？

Why won't you let us out?

泪水质问着良知。

The tears questioned the conscious.

放下你的恐惧与疑虑，在这个过程中治愈自己。

Relinquish your fears and doubts, and heal yourself in the process.

良知对泪水说：我知道你真的想让我哭，但若我释放你，让你获得自由，你就会死去。

The conscience told the tears, I know you really want me to cry, but if I release you from bondage in gaining your freedom, you die.

泪水沉思片刻，才给良知一个答复。

The tears gave it some thought before giving the conscious an answer.

如果哭泣能带你走向胜利，那么死亡也就没那么可怕了。

If crying brings you to triumph, then dying's not such a disaster.

作者：伊恩·E。

That's by Ian E.

曼努埃尔，联合矫正机构。

Manuel, Union Correctional Institution.

你知道吗，当我们谈论宽恕时，通常更容易对一个孩子施予宽恕，对吧？

You know, when we talk about grace, it's often easier to give a child grace, right?

但在刑事司法系统中却不是这样。

But not in the criminal justice system.

你能描述一下，当你走进一个专门为成年人设计的监狱系统，却发现自己坐在一个八岁、九岁或十岁孩子对面时，是什么感觉吗？

Can you describe what it's like to walk into a prison system that has been built for and designed for adults and find yourself sitting across from an eight, nine, or 10 year old child?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为过去半个世纪中最悲剧的事情之一，就是这种错误的观念：有些孩子不是孩子。

I think one of the most tragic things that's happened over the last half century is this false idea that some children aren't children.

这种观点是由二十世纪八十年代的犯罪学家和许多政策制定者传播的，他们四处宣扬有些孩子看起来像孩子、说话也像孩子。

And it was spread by criminologists and a lot of policy people in the nineteen eighties who were going around arguing that some kids look like kids and sound like kids.

但他们说，这些孩子不是真正的儿童。

They said, but these aren't children.

他们甚至创造了一个术语。

And they actually came up with this term.

他们称这些孩子为‘超级掠食者’，这个标签被强加在许多儿童身上。

They said these are, quote, super predators, and that label was applied to a lot of children.

我们开始做许多不健康的事情。

We started doing very unhealthy things.

我们建立了从学校到监狱的输送通道。

We created pipelines from school houses to jail houses.

我们开始降低对儿童进行审判的最低年龄。

We started lowering the minimum age for trying children.

作为成年人，我们形成了零容忍的心态，加剧了数十万儿童所承受的压力，因为他们成长在暴力家庭和暴力社区中。

As adults, we created this zero tolerance mindset, and we added to the stress that hundreds of thousands of kids are living with because they're growing up in violent families and violent communities.

他们没有被接纳。

They're not being embraced.

他们没有被拥抱。

They're not being hugged.

他们被贴上了标签。

They're being associated.

你读过的那首诗的作者伊恩，在13岁时被逮捕并最终被定罪。

Ian, whose poem you read, was 13 years old when he was arrested and ultimately convicted of a crime.

这是一起发生在佛罗里达州的非杀人罪行。

It was a non homicide offense that took place in Florida.

他身材太小了，他们不得不把制服的裤腿剪短，才能让他穿上合适的衣服。

He was so small that they had to cut the legs off of the uniform to get him something that would fit him.

他们决定不把他放在普通监区，因为在成人设施中的儿童极易成为性虐待、暴力和虐待的目标。

They decided not to put him in general population because children in adult facilities become targets for a lot of sexual abuse and violence and and mistreatment.

于是他们把他关进了单独监禁室，剥夺了他与任何人接触的机会。

So they put him in solitary confinement where they deprived him of any contact with other human beings.

当然，他们并没有为这个13岁的孩子改变任何规定。

And, course, they didn't change the rules for this 13 year old child.

他们只是直接套用了成人的规则。

They just they applied the adult rules.

所以，他要想离开单独监禁，就必须从不犯错。

So to get out of solitary, he had to never make a mistake.

他不能抱怨，不能大声说话，不能做这个，也不能做那个。

He had to never complain, never be loud, never do this, never do that.

作为一个身处这种环境中的孩子，他根本做不到这些。

And as a as a young kid in that environment, he was never able to do that.

因此，他最终在单独监禁中度过了十八年。

So he ended up spending eighteen years in solitary confinement.

十八年？

Eighteen years?

这合法吗？

Is that legal?

这是我们不断挑战的问题，但目前我们的法律中没有任何规定能禁止这种情况。

It is something we are constantly challenging, but there are no restrictions currently in our law that would prohibit something like that.

所以第一次见到他时，我甚至不能和他同处一室，因为他们不许他接触任何人。

And so the first time I met him, I couldn't even be in the same room with him because they didn't allow him to touch another human being.

他的诗歌源于一种孤立与痛苦，令人痛心。

And so his poetry comes out of a kind of isolation, a kind of anguish that is heartbreaking.

真正让人沮丧的是，他抢劫并开枪伤害的那个人，对他的遭遇感到震惊。

And, you know, what was really frustrating was the person who he robbed and shot was absolutely appalled that he was being treated that way.

她实际上在为他争取释放或改判，我们为他的案件努力了很长时间，最终成功帮他获得释放。

And she was actually advocating for him to be released or to have a different sentence, and we worked on his case for a very long time and ultimately won his release.

我非常自豪，现在他住在纽约。

I'm I'm so proud that now he's living in New York.

他在写诗。

He's doing poetry.

他在向年轻人演讲。

He's speaking to young people.

他正在做各种事情。

He's doing things.

但没错，我们这个国家曾经对儿童犯下过可怕的暴行，我们任由恐惧和愤怒的心态驱使，做出了许多极具破坏性的事情。

But, yes, we've done horrific things to children in this country, and we've allowed that mindset of fear and anger to cause us to do some really destructive things.

我确实相信，当你任由恐惧和愤怒支配自己，当你的决策根植于恐惧和愤怒时，你一定会做出糟糕的决定。

And I and I do believe when you allow yourself to be governed by fear and anger, when you root your decisions in fear and anger, you're gonna make bad decisions.

你不会去做那些你本该做的事情。

You're not gonna do the things you should be doing.

直到20世纪70年代，我们监狱里的人数还相对较少。

Until the nineteen seventies, we had a relatively small number of people in jails and prisons.

当时，这个国家监狱和拘留所里的人数不到30万。

It was fewer than 300,000 people in jails and prisons in this country.

然后在20世纪70年代，这一情况发生了根本性转变，来自各政党的民选官员开始主张，吸毒成瘾或依赖的人是罪犯，应当为他们的成瘾和依赖受到惩罚。

And then that shifted radically in the nineteen seventies when elected officials from all political parties began arguing that people who are drug addicted or drug dependent are criminals who should be punished for their addiction and dependency.

我们当时充满愤怒和恐惧，于是将数十万人因吸毒成瘾和依赖而关进监狱和拘留所。

And we were angry and we were afraid, and so we put hundreds of thousands of people in jails and prisons for addiction and dependency.

如果我们没有被恐惧和愤怒所支配，我们会说：哦，不。

Now, if we weren't being governed by fear and anger, we would have said, oh, no.

那些遭受成瘾和依赖困扰的人，他们患的是健康问题，我们需要的是医疗应对，而不是惩罚性措施。

Those people suffering from addiction and dependency, they have a health problem, and we need a health care response, not a punitive response.

但我们没有这么做。

But we didn't do that.

现在，我们的监狱里关押着两百万人。

And now we have two million people in our jails and prisons.

我们拥有世界上最高的监禁率。

We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world.

我们摧毁了如此多的社区和家庭，但世界上阿片类药物成瘾率依然居高不下。

We've destroyed so many communities, so many families, and we still have one of the highest rates of opioid addiction in the world.

我们依然面对着因药物过量而支离破碎的家庭，以及成瘾带来的各种暴力与混乱，而我们却从未帮助这些家庭。

We still have families devastated by drug overdose and all the violence and dysfunction that addiction can create, and we haven't helped families.

我们没有帮助儿童和母亲们康复。

We haven't helped children and mothers recover.

我们只是惩罚了这些人。

We've just punished people.

但这源于恐惧和愤怒，而这正是塑造了我们关于将孩子关进成人监狱的思维方式的原因，这太可悲了。

But it was rooted in this fear and anger, and that's what has shaped so much of our thinking about putting kids in adult jails and prisons, and it's tragic.

我在书中写到，我曾见过一位14岁的客户，他住在母亲有男友的家里，每当那男友喝酒后就会变得暴力。有一天他回家后，走进厨房，一拳打在男孩的母亲身上，她直接倒了下去。

I write in the book about meeting one of my clients who was 14, living in a household where his mother had a boyfriend, and when he would start drinking, he'd get violent, and one day he came home, and he walked into the kitchen and punched the boy's mother, and she just fell.

他甚至都没说话，就直接打了她。

He didn't even she didn't even say anything, he just punched her.

她倒在地板上，流着血，失去了知觉。

She ended up on the floor bleeding and unconscious.

她的儿子冲进厨房想帮妈妈，但她毫无反应。

Her son came running into the kitchen to try to help his mom, but she was nonresponsive.

那个小男孩以为妈妈死了。

And that little boy thought his mom was dead.

她其实没死，但他以为她死了。

She wasn't dead, but he thought she was dead.

十分钟后，他起身去卧室打电话报警，这时他想起那个男人把一把手枪放在梳妆抽屉里，于是他走到抽屉前，拉开抽屉，取出枪，走到那个熟睡的男人身边，将枪对准了他的头部，而那时男人正在打鼾。

After ten minutes, he got up to go into the bedroom to call the police, and then he remembered that this man kept a handgun in the dresser drawer, and he goes over to the drawer, he pulls it open, he pulls out the gun, he goes over to where the man is sleeping, and he points the gun at the man's head, and the man is snoring at this point.

过了一会儿，男人停止了打鼾，突然惊醒。

And at some point, the man stops snoring and jumps.

男人一惊跳起来，小男孩也吓了一跳，一慌张就扣动了扳机，一枪击中了男人的头部，当场致其死亡。

And when the man jumps, the little boy jumps, and when the little boy jumps, he pulls the trigger and shoots this man in the head, killing him instantly.

这个孩子身材非常矮小，身高不到五英尺，体重不到一百磅，之前从未惹过麻烦，也没有任何少年犯罪记录，学习成绩不错，本可能作为未成年人受审，但因为他开枪打死的那个人——他母亲的男友——是一名副警长。

This child was very small for his age, it was under five feet tall, he weighed less than a hundred pounds, he'd never been in trouble before, no prior juvenile adjudications, he was a decent student, he was the kind of kid that might have been tried as a juvenile, but for the fact that the man that he shot and killed, his mother's boyfriend, well, that man was a deputy sheriff.

由于死者是副警长，检察官坚持要求将这个孩子作为成年人受审，法官立即把他送进了成人监狱。

And because he was a deputy sheriff, the prosecutor insisted that this child be tried as an adult, and the judge immediately placed this child in an adult facility.

三天后我介入了此案，去监狱探望这个孩子，我注意到他走进房间时显得极度恐惧。

I got involved three days later, and I went to the jail to see this kid, and I was struck how when he walked into the room, he seemed to be so terrified.

他坐下来后，我开始问他问题，但无论我问什么，他都不肯开口。

And he sat down, and I started asking him questions, but no matter what I asked him, he wouldn't say anything.

他只是呆呆地盯着前方。

He just he just stared.

我记得我站起来，绕过桌子，把椅子拉近他身边。

And I remember getting up and going around the table and pulling my chair close to him.

我说：来吧，你得跟我聊聊。

I said, come on, you gotta talk to me.

你如果不跟我讲，我没法帮你。

I can't help you if you don't talk to me.

他不肯与我对视。

He wouldn't make eye contact.

他只是直直地盯着前方。

He was just staring straight ahead.

我不知道该怎么办，后来我干脆靠向了他。

And I couldn't figure out what to do, and at some point, I just leaned on him.

当我靠向他时，他也靠了回来。

And when I leaned on him, he leaned back.

当他靠回来时，我搂住了他的肩膀。

And when he leaned back, I put my arm around him.

我说，来吧，你得告诉我到底发生了什么。

I said, come on, you gotta tell me what's going on.

这个小男孩开始哭起来，透过泪水，他向我倾诉起来，不是讲那个男人的事，也不是他妈妈的事，而是讲他在监狱里遭遇的一切。

And this little boy started to cry, and through his tears, he began talking to me, not about what happened with the man, not about what happened with his mom, but what had happened at the jail.

他告诉我，第一晚，有几个男人伤害了他。

And he told me on the first night, several men had hurt him.

他告诉我，第二天晚上，他被好几个人性侵了。

He told me on the next night, he'd been sexually assaulted by several people.

他告诉我，在我到达之前的那个晚上，有太多人伤害了他。

He told me on the night before I'd gotten there, so many people had hurt him.

他记不清到底有多少人。

He couldn't remember how many there had been.

我记得我抱着这个男孩，他歇斯底里地哭了将近一个小时。

And I remember hugging this boy while he cried hysterically for almost an hour.

我终于让他平静下来，然后对他说：听着，我会带你离开这里。

And I finally got him calm, and I said, look, I'm gonna get you out of here.

你就待在这儿，我永远忘不了当时试图离开监狱的情景。

You stay right here, and I'll never forget trying to leave the jail.

那个小男孩抓住了我的手臂。

And that little boy grabbed me by the arm.

他说：求求你，求求你别走。

He said, please, please don't go.

别走啊。

Please don't go.

我说：不。

I said, no.

没事的。

It's alright.

没关系。

It's okay.

你就待在这儿。

You stay right here.

我会尽力帮你离开这里。

I'm gonna try to get you out of here.

当我离开监狱时，我心中自然冒出一个问题：谁该为这一切负责？

And when I left the jail, the question I had in my mind, of course, was who's responsible for this?

答案是我们自己。

And the answer is we are.

我们任由恐惧和愤怒将整整一代孩子妖魔化。

We've allowed fear and anger to demonize whole generations of children.

我相信所有的孩子都是孩子。

I believe all children are children.

我认为，衡量我们对孩子的承诺，不在于我们如何对待有天赋、有才华和有特权的孩子。

I don't think we show our commitment to children by looking at how well we treat talented kids and gifted kids and privileged kids.

我们对孩子的承诺，必须通过我们如何对待贫困的孩子、受虐的孩子、被忽视的孩子、被边缘化的孩子和正在挣扎的孩子来体现。

Our commitment to children has to be expressed by how we treat poor kids, abused kids, neglected kids, kids that are disfavored, kids that are struggling.

这些孩子，才真正反映我们对孩子的承诺。

These are the children that reflect our commitment to children.

我只是认为，如果我们以创伤知情的方式应对这些孩子，不仅能够帮助这些孩子，还能创造更健康的社会。

And I just think if we took a trauma informed response to these kids, not only could we help these children, but we could create healthier communities.

我憎恨暴力。

I hate violence.

我不希望看到任何孩子犯罪。

I don't wanna see any child commit a crime.

我不希望他们伤害任何人。

I don't want them to hurt anybody.

我不希望他们加入帮派。

I don't want them to be part of gangs.

我不希望他们卷入造成伤害和暴力的事情中。

I don't want them to be part of things that create injuries and violence.

我想要更健康的社会。

I want healthier communities.

但这意味着我们必须帮助那些被推向各种不健康道路的孩子们；而当我们制定政策时，如果被恐惧和愤怒蒙蔽了双眼，我们就无法做到这一点——就像如果我们被恐惧和愤怒蒙蔽，无法看到他人的人性，即使是我们关心的人，我们也无法实现健康的养育、健康的照顾，以及健康的人际关系，而这些都会带来真正的破坏性后果。

But that means we have to help these kids who are being pushed in all of these unhealthy ways, and we don't get to that when our policy making is blinded by our fear and our anger, just like we don't get to healthy parenting, we don't get to healthy caregiving, we don't get to healthy relationships with one another if we're blinded by our fear and our anger, when we don't see the humanity of the people, even that we care about, we do things that can be really destructive.

你知道吗，当我还是公设辩护律师时，我总是会遇到这些问题。

You know, when I was a public defender, I I would always get those questions.

你怎么能为那些做了坏事的人辩护呢？

How can you defend people, like, have done bad things?

我总是说，因为他们自己也遭受过坏事，而我们不愿意正视这一点。

And I would always say, because bad things have been done to them, and we don't wanna look at that.

我们只想看到那个坏事。

We just wanna look at the bad thing.

是的。

Yeah.

而且很多时候，人们被指控的那些事，其实他们并没有做。

And oftentimes, the things that people have been accused of, they actually didn't do.

让我感到安慰的是，我遇到的很少有人会不愿意在我见到那个小男孩时做同样的事。

What gives me some comfort is that I meet very few people who wouldn't want to do exactly what I did when I met that little boy.

我认为，如果任何听这段话的人，当时在那个房间里，抱着那个哭泣的小男孩，听他讲述这些事，即使知道他被指控了什么，几乎每个人都会离开时说，我们必须把这个孩子从那个环境中救出来。

I think if most anyone listening to this, if they had been in that room and held that little boy while he was crying, talking about these things, even knowing what he has been accused of, I think almost everyone would leave there saying, we've gotta get that child out of that environment.

我认为，那种本能的力量——那种不愿让痛苦叠加痛苦、不愿让暴力加剧暴力、不愿让错误加重错误的渴望——能够带来非凡的结果。

And I think the power in that instinct, in that desire to not add suffering to suffering, not to add violence to violence, not to add wrongdoing to wrongdoing is that that can yield something extraordinary.

它能带来救赎。

It can yield something redemptive.

它能带来一种近乎治愈的感觉。

It can yield something that can feel healing almost.

因此，我们当天就把他从那个机构里带了出来，最终成功解决了这个案件，让他获得了释放。

So we were able to get him out of that facility that day, and ultimately was able to get a resolution of the case where he got released.

他离开后，拿到了高中文凭和同等学历证书，然后上了大学。

After he got out, he got his high school degree, his GED, then he went to college.

他真的成为了一名工程师。

He actually became an engineer.

他结婚了。

He got married.

他拥有一个幸福的家庭。

He has a beautiful family.

我知道他获释的那一天是十一号，因为过去十八年来，每个月的十一号早上八点整，这个年轻人都会给我打电话，他说：‘嘿，布莱恩先生，只是想让你知道我过得很好，我爱你。’

And I know the day of his release, it's the eleventh because on the eleventh of every month for the last eighteen years at 8AM exactly, this young man calls me and he says, hey, mister Brian, just want you to know I'm doing great and I love you.

十八年来，每个月都是如此。

Every month for eighteen years.

这就是当我们看到不公、看到虐待时，做出回应所带来的一种美好。

And that's the beauty that comes out of reacting, responding to injustice when we see it, abuse when we see it.

我无法衡量这为我的人生带来了多大的价值，带给了我多少喜悦。

And I can't quantify the value that gives my life, the the joy that gives me.

就我而言，这是无价之宝。

It's priceless as far as I'm concerned.

我认为，当我们拥抱那些正在挣扎、身处绝望、遭受创伤的孩子，并努力为他们改善处境时，这种付出必有回报。

And I think when we hold our children that are struggling, that are that are in places of despair, that have been traumatized, and we look for ways to make things better, there's a return on that.

现在是个不错的时机，让我们稍作停顿，请我们的赞助商说几句话。

This feels like a good moment to take a quick pause and give our sponsors a chance to share a few words.

在他们发言的同时，请将这段对话分享给你关心的人。

And while they do, please share this conversation with people that you care about.

我感觉我的心在扩展。

I feel my heart expanding.

我感觉我的思维在打开。

I feel my mind opening up.

我感到受到启发、充满力量并且充满希望。

I feel inspired and empowered and hopeful.

我知道，你与任何人分享这段内容，他们都会感受到同样的情绪。

And I know anybody that you share this with is gonna feel that exact same thing.

请不要离开，因为布赖恩·史蒂文森和我将在短暂休息后等你回来，请继续关注我们。

And don't go anywhere because Brian Stevenson and I are gonna be waiting for you after this short break, so stay with us.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

能在这里与你们相聚，并与非凡的布赖恩·史蒂文森共度时光，我感到无比荣幸。

It is such an honor to be here together with you and to get to spend time with the extraordinary Brian Stevenson.

所以，布赖恩，在《正义的慈悲》这本了不起的书中，你多次谈到一个具有里程碑意义的案件，在多年的时间里，你看到了别人未曾察觉的希望与可能。

So, Brian, throughout the incredible book, Just Mercy, you, talk about this landmark case where for years and years and years, you saw hope and possibility where no one else did.

你相信了一个不仅被定罪、而且被陷害、被操纵的人，这个案子令人震惊。

You believed in a person who had been not just condemned, but set up, railroaded every the case is so shocking.

我们对自己有一种傲慢和精神操控的层面。

And there's a level of arrogance and gaslighting that we do to ourselves.

当我读这本书时，我在想，这件事发生在1988年？

You know, as I was reading this and I'm thinking this happened in 1988?

是的。

Yeah.

那并不算很久以前。

That's not a long time ago.

当我上大学的时候，这种事情正在发生。

This was happening when I was in college.

对于那些还没看过电影《正义的慈悲》或读过你这本书的人，你能给我们简单讲讲这个案子吗？

For the person who hasn't either seen the movie Just Mercy or read your book, can you tell us a little bit about this case?

当然。

Sure.

这起案件涉及一名名叫沃尔特·麦米伦的男子，他被指控在阿拉巴马州蒙罗维尔谋杀了一名年轻白人女性，这一案件在许多方面都令人震惊。

It involves a man named Walter McMillan who was accused of killing a young white woman in Monroeville, Alabama, and it is shocking in a lot of ways.

让我立即对这个案件产生兴趣的一点是，阿拉巴马州的蒙罗维尔正是哈珀·李成长并创作《杀死一只知更鸟》的地方。

One of the things that was immediately fascinating to me about this case is that Monroeville, Alabama is the community where Harper Lee grew up and wrote the story To Kill a Mockingbird.

因此，蒙罗维尔以作为这部作品的诞生地和故乡而自豪。

And so Monroeville prides itself on being the birthplace, the home place of that story.

每年，他们都会上演一场戏剧，街道也以书中的角色命名。

And so every year they put on a play, the streets are named after characters in the book.

这是一件大事。

It's a big deal.

你可以去那座法院，电影中的场景就是在那里拍摄的，人们会说：‘你可以站在格雷戈里·派克站过的地方。’

You can go to the courthouse, where they filmed the movie, scenes from the movie, and people say, oh, you can go stand where Gregory Peck stood.

他们将《杀死一只知更鸟》的故事浪漫化了。

They romanticized the story of To Kill a Mockingbird.

他们没能破获这起谋杀案，几个月后，社区对警方和检察官未能破案感到非常沮丧。

They couldn't solve the murder, and after several months, the community was very frustrated with the police and the prosecutors for not solving the crime.

这位年仅18岁的年轻人在蒙罗维尔市中心大白天被杀害，压力不断上升，我们认为这促使他们盯上了麦克米伦先生——并非因为他们有任何他有罪的证据，而是因为麦克米伦先生曾与社区里一位年轻白人女性有染，此事已在当地传开。

The young 18 year old was killed in broad daylight in the middle of Downtown Monroeville, and the pressure was building, and we believe that led them mister McMillan, not because they had any evidence of his guilt, but because mister McMillan had had an affair with a young white woman in the community, and word had spread about that.

这导致他们把注意力集中在他身上。

And that caused them to focus on him.

但事实上，在谋杀发生时，麦克米伦先生实际上正在家里为他姐姐的教堂筹款，当时周围有三十五人左右。

Now it turns out that at the time of the murder, mister McMillan was actually at his house raising money for his sister's church, so he was surrounded by thirty, thirty five people.

所以为了确认一下，你听到了吗？有三十五个证人。

So just to just to make sure as you're listening, there were 35 alibis.

是的。

Yes.

而且在谋杀发生时，他就在家里。

And in presence at his house during the time of the murder

是的。

Yes.

这些证人还包括牧师、传道人和教师。

Those alibis also included ministers, pastors, teachers.

一名警察去现场买食物，当时正在举办鱼 fry 活动并出售三明治，这名警察从沃尔特·麦克米伦那里买了一个三明治，时间几乎与犯罪发生时间一致，而犯罪地点离那里有十一英里远。

A police officer who had gone to the to the place to buy, they were having a fish fry and selling sandwiches, so a police officer bought a sandwich and noted bought a sandwich from Walter McMillan at almost the exact time of the crime, which was eleven miles away.

但警察逮捕了麦克米伦先生。

But the police arrested mister McMillan.

他们胁迫两个人作伪证指控他。

They coerced two people to testify falsely against him.

他们在审判开始前就把他送上了死囚牢房。

They put him on death row before the trial took place.

这合法吗？

Is that legal?

这完全违法。

It's completely illegal.

但这也是一个没有公共辩护人制度的州。

But this is also a state where there was no public defender system.

由法院指派的律师往往并不愿意接手这些案件。

It was appointed to lawyers who didn't necessarily wanna take the cases.

没错。

That's right.

所以律师们对报纸上称死刑犯沃尔特·麦克米伦将于下周受审这件事毫无异议。

So the lawyers didn't complain about the fact that the newspapers were now saying death row defendant, Walter McMillan, will be arraigned next week.

死刑犯，他们已经将他定性为应被判处死刑的人。

Death row defendant, they were already characterizing him as someone who should get the death penalty.

审判只进行了一天半。

The trial takes place and lasts for a day and a half.

这两位证人提供了虚假证词。

These two witnesses give these false testimony.

奇怪的是，陪审团在定罪后表示，他们认为他应被判处终身监禁不得假释。

Oddly, the jury comes back after convicting him and says, we think he should be sentenced to life without parole.

我认为他们知道针对他没有可信的证据，尽管他们还是判了他有罪。

I think they knew that there was no credible evidence against him, and they didn't Even though they convicted him.

尽管他们判了他有罪，但他们的折中方案是判处他终身监禁不得假释。

Even though they convicted him, and their compromise was to sentence him to life without parole.

但阿拉巴马州允许其审判法官——这些民选的审判法官——推翻陪审团作出的终身监禁判决，判处死刑。

But Alabama, allowed its trial judges, its elected trial judges to override jury verdicts of life and impose the death penalty.

因此，法官立即推翻了终身监禁的判决，改判死刑。

So the judge immediately overrode that life sentence and imposed a death sentence.

于是，麦克米伦先生被送回死囚牢房，而我在他被判刑后介入此案，并迅速了解到案件中存在的诸多问题。

So mister McMillan is sent back to death row, and I got involved after he had been sentenced and quickly learned about all of the problems with the case.

首先，我走进社区，那些和他在一起的人来找我，他们说：‘史蒂文森先生，我们感觉自己也被判了罪。’

First of all, I went into the community, the people who were with him, and they came up to me and they said, mister Stevenson, we feel like we've been convicted too.

我们感觉自己也被判了死刑。

We feel like we've been sentenced to death too.

我们当时和他在一起。

We were with him.

如果他当时独自在森林里打猎，那情况反而会更好，因为至少那时你还能保留一丝可能性。

It would have been better if he'd been out in the woods hunting by himself when this crime took place, because at least then you had to entertain the possibility.

但因为我们当时和他在一起，而且我们很快发现了关于胁迫的证据——不知为何，当他们胁迫那两名证人作伪证时，他们录下了这些访谈，却把录音带藏了起来。

But because we were with him, and we quickly uncovered evidence about the coercion for some bizarre reason when they coerced these two witnesses to testify falsely against him, they tape recorded those interviews, and they hid the tapes.

我通过去另一座法院进行调查找到了这些录音。

I found the tapes by going to another courthouse and doing some discovery.

在这段录音中，证人第一句话就说：‘你们想让我诬陷一个无辜的人犯谋杀罪，我感觉这样做不对。’

And the first thing you hear on this tape from the witness is, quote, you want me to frame an innocent man for murder, and I don't feel right about that.

警察则直接说：‘如果你不按我们说的做，我们就把你送上死刑犯名单。’

And the police officer effectively says, well, if you don't do what we want, we'll put you on death row.

他们把这名证人关在死囚牢里三个月，直到他同意作伪证指控麦米伦先生。

And they put the witness on death row for three months until he agreed to testify falsely against Mr.

麦米伦。

McMillan.

他们在庭审中提交了这些证据以及其他一些证据，但我们发现了所有这些情况。

They present that evidence at trial, some other evidence, but we found out all of this stuff.

我们找到了那名警察的日志，上面记载着他曾去过麦米伦家。

We found the police officer's log that said he was at miss McMillan's house.

我们

We

不过，我认为让听众知道这件事已经酝酿了多年，可能会让他们感到惊讶。

I think, though, it might surprise the person listening to know that this was years

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

早就开始了。

In the making.

你的意思不是你刚找到这些磁带，然后就直接带着它们走进法庭。

Like, this was not you just found the tapes and then suddenly you walk them into a court.

没错。

That's right.

一直遭到抵制，确实如此。

It was constant resistance Absolutely.

来自法院的阻力。

From courts.

是的

That's

对。

right.

还有警察，实际上要呈交上去。

And from the police to actually present.

你讲过一个故事，简直难以置信：当你终于等到法庭开庭那天，所有那天在沃尔特家的人——以前从未被允许作证，或者即使作证了也没人相信——全都涌进了法庭。

There's there's a story that you tell that is unbelievable because you finally have the day in court, and everybody that was at Walter's house that day who had never been allowed to testify, or if they had, were just not believed, flood the courtroom.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们都在那里支持你。

And they are there in support.

这是一次听证会，目的是为了重新开启案件，因为你找到了新证据。

And this is for a hearing on a motion to just open up the case again because you found new evidence.

对。

Right.

单从这一点来看，这个案件就必须被驳回并推翻。

That on its face makes the case have to be thrown out and overturned.

是的。

Yeah.

但在听证会的第二天，你到场时，那些原本来支持你当事人的群体——主要是大批非裔美国人——

But the second day of the hearing, you show up and everybody that there was there to support your client, largely a big community of African American people

是的。

Yeah.

却被告知不能进入法庭，因为警察已经让白人占满了座位，是的。

Had been told they couldn't enter the courtroom because the police had filled it with white people Yeah.

他们支持的是对方。

That supported them.

是的。

Yeah.

你面对这样的荒谬情况，却依然保持着一种从容的风度。

And you face this sort of bullshit, and yet you somehow have this grace about you.

你知道，这种力量来自于我所代表的那些人。

You know, it comes from the people I got to represent.

你说得完全对。

You're absolutely right.

你知道，在我们处理这个案件的六年里

You know, for the six years we were working on this case

六年？

Six years?

六年。

Six years.

花了六年才把他救出来

It took to get him

是的。

Yes.

当我走进社区时，我曾收到过死亡威胁。

And I would get death threats when I go into the community.

我们收到了炸弹威胁。

We had bomb threats.

我们不得不多次清空办公室，因为有人扬言要炸毁那里。

We had to clear our office on multiple occasions because somebody had made bomb threats.

我没法用真名，如果我想住酒店，就得换不同的名字。

I couldn't you know, I would start it using different names if I tried to stay in a hotel.

我们租用汽车，因为我一直被人跟踪。

We used rental cars because I was constantly being followed.

阻力太大了。

There was so much resistance.

然后，正如你所说，在法庭上度过了顺利的一天后，第二天回来却根本不让人们进入法庭，这在很多方面简直是最大的侮辱。

And then, you know, the ultimate insult in many ways was after having a good day in court, as you described, coming back the next day and then simply not letting people into the courtroom.

我走到门口说：我想进去。

And I went over to the door and said, I wanna go inside.

社区领袖说：哦，他们不让我们进去。

The community leader said, Oh, they won't let us in.