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嗨。
Hey.
我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
今天咱们直接切入正题。
Today, we are gonna get right into it.
我们要聊聊冒名顶替综合征。
We're gonna talk about imposter syndrome.
我之所以想谈这个，是因为我们女儿肯德尔刚满23岁，上周末在音乐节上经历了一件事，让她突然有了这种感觉。
And the reason why I wanted to talk about this is because our daughter Kendall, is 23 years old, just had a situation this weekend at this music festival that triggered imposter syndrome.
我就想，不如咱们好好拆解一下，当时是什么让你的冒名顶替感突然冒出来的？
And I thought, why don't we unpack this moment where your imposter syndrome got triggered?
更重要的是，你后来跟我分享的那些特别有用的方法，是怎么帮你走出来的。
And then more importantly, the incredible things that you shared with me that helped you turn it around.
所以，各位听众，今天请听肯德尔·罗宾斯的故事。
So ladies and gentlemen, everybody who's listening, Kendall Robbins.
大家好。
Hey, everybody.
好了。
Alright.
所以，跟我们说说发生了什么。
So tell us what happened.
嗯，是这样的。
Okay.
上周末，我第一次真正踏入了我所说的艺术家圈子里。
So this past weekend, I had my first experience as an artist in the real artist world is what I'm gonna call it.
你说的艺术家是指什么？
What does artist mean?
我正在朝职业录音和巡演艺术家的方向发展。
I am pursuing a career as a professional recording and touring artist.
我是个唱作人。
And I'm a singer songwriter.
我开始写自己的音乐了。
I've started to write my own music.
几周后我就要搬去洛杉矶了。
I'm moving out to LA in a few weeks time.
上周末是我第一次置身于一群真正成功的艺术家中间，他们做的正是我想做的事。
And this past weekend was my first experience surrounded by really successful artists that are doing the thing that I wanna do.
过去四年我一直在上学，这种经历我以前几乎没有过。
And as somebody that's been in school for the past four years, I've had very few experiences like this.
上周末是我头一次完全融入这个圈子，不再背着学生的身份。
And so this past weekend was my first few days fully existing in that world without the label of a student on my back.
我不再有那个可以躲藏的影子了。
I didn't have that sort of shadow to hide in anymore.
我感到挺尴尬的。
I was feeling embarrassed.
我有点不自在。
I was feeling awkward.
我感觉自己像个冒牌货。
I was feeling like an imposter.
我觉得我不该在这儿，因为我还没发布过音乐，没有粉丝，也没有社交媒体关注者。
Like, I don't belong because I don't have music out and I don't have fans and I don't have a social media following.
咱们先退一步说。
Let's just back the truck up
等一下。
a minute.
咱们先把情况理清楚。
So let's just set the table.
首先，每个人都会经历自我怀疑的时刻。
First of all, every human being struggles with moments of imposter syndrome.
我这儿正看着研究数据呢，各位。
I'm looking at the research right here, everybody.
我手头有研究资料。
I've got my research.
心理学家把这种害怕被揭穿的感觉叫做冒名顶替综合征。
Psychologists call this fear of being found out imposter syndrome.
这个词是上世纪70年代由两位女性研究者提出的。
It was coined in the 1970s by two female researchers.
事实上，哈佛商业评论的肯德尔指出，全球的高管们都认同，他们最害怕的就是被人发现能力不足。
In fact, Harvard Business Review, Kendall, says that executives worldwide agree that their number one fear is being found to be incompetent.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, okay.
所以，这种感受其实每个人都会经历，非常正常。
So this is a very normal thing for everybody to experience.
这也叫智力上的自我怀疑。
And it is called intellectual self doubt.
当你进入一个新环境，走进一个房间，或者打算做一件事时，心里就开始打鼓：我真能行吗？我配得上这个位置吗？生怕别人看出来我根本不懂这些。
Where you enter a situation or you enter a room or you think about doing something and in your own mind, you start doubting yourself, you start doubting whether or not you're able to do something, you start doubting whether or not you deserve to be in a certain place, and you start feeling worried that people are gonna find out that you have no idea what you're talking about.
我一开始就想请你来，就是因为几天前那个周五早上你经历的处境，不仅特别有共鸣，而且我真的很佩服你，居然能自己开导自己，扭转局面，过了一个特别棒、特别有力量的周末。
And one thing that I will say from the get go is the reason why I wanted to have you on is because the situation that you found yourself in on Friday morning just a few days ago is not only so relatable, but I was pretty impressed by how you coached yourself through it and turned it around and had one of the coolest, most affirming weekends of your life.
我知道你有很多有价值的东西可以分享。
And I know that you have a lot of value to share.
那你愿意吗？
So are you willing to Yes.
说吧。
Go
我愿意。
I am willing.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
那咱们回到当时的情景吧。
So put us at the scene.
周五早上到底发生了什么？
What was happening Friday morning?
上个周末，我运气很好，去参加了一个音乐节，拿了艺术家通行证，能 backstage 看所有表演者演出，那个区域是持通行证的人专属的。
So this past weekend, I was lucky enough to go to a music festival and I had an artist pass, which means that I got to watch all of the musicians and artists that were performing at the festival perform from backstage in this separate area that the people with the artist pass can hang out in.
我到那儿之前，根本不知道这通行证是干嘛的。
And I didn't really know what that meant until I got there.
你觉得这怎么样？
So what do think about this?
我真的一点都不懂艺术家通行证是什么意思。
Honestly had no idea what artist pass meant.
我就想着，太棒了。
I was just like, sweet.
好的。
Okay.
我能插队了。
I get to cut the line.
这真的太棒了。
That's really awesome.
我真的很感恩。
I feel really grateful.
我一走进后台，四周全是那些我听了好多年的知名音乐人、艺术家和表演者。
And then I walk backstage and I'm surrounded by all of these like very established musicians and artists and performers and people that I've been listening to for the past however many years.
那感觉怎么样？
What was that like?
说实话，一开始特别紧张，完全没想到自己会离这些我仰慕已久的人这么近。
I mean, it was it was really scary at first because I had no idea that I was gonna be within arm's reach of all these people that I've looked up to for the past few years.
而我呢，刚毕业，还没出过任何作品，现在正迷茫着，不知道自己想成为谁，想做什么，想写什么，想发布什么。
And being there as somebody that has just gotten out of school, does not have anything released, is just in the woods right now figuring out who I wanna be, what I wanna be, what I wanna write, what I wanna release.
在这样一个我即将踏入的世界里，我基本上算是个不存在的人。
I basically don't exist right now in the world that I'm stepping into.
所以，作为一个在网上和这个行业里都还没人认识的人，却 physically 走进这个音乐节，被这么多大人物包围着，真的特别有压力，甚至有点吓人。
And so stepping into this festival as somebody that doesn't really exist online or in this industry yet, but stepping into it physically and being surrounded by all these people was just incredibly daunting and honestly terrifying.
我当时特别害怕，也很不自在，大部分时间都一个人站着。
And I felt really scared and awkward and I stood alone a lot of
那时候。
the time.
你能想象一下你刚到音乐节的那个瞬间吗？你手腕上戴着一张特别的通行证，可以自由进出所有区域。
Can you put us at the moment when you arrive at the festival, you get this pass that is a special thing around your wrist that gives you all access to go anywhere.
然后你走进一个类似后台休息室的帐篷里。
And you walk into almost like the tent that serves as the green room.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我有个家人朋友在这音乐节工作，已经来这儿很多年了。
So I have a family friend that works at this festival and has been going to this festival for a while.
是他帮我弄到了这张艺人通行证。
So he was the one that was actually able to get me the artist pass.
我知道这张通行证有些贵宾待遇，但完全没想到我那天会是什么安排。
I knew that there were some VIP features of this pass, but I did not know what my days were gonna look like.
我根本不清楚当天的行程是怎样的。
I didn't know what the schedule was like.
我们一到现场就插队，直接进了那个专属帐篷，领了腕带，然后就进了 festival 里面。
And so basically we get to the festival, we cut the line, we go to this special tent where I get this wristband, and then we walk into the festival.
一进去，人就挤得满满当当。
Immediately, we're in this crowd.
到处都是美食摊位，香味扑鼻，人来人往。
I'm seeing all the food tents, smelling all the smells, seeing all the people.
接着，我们绕到舞台后面，进了围起来的区域。
And then we go behind the stage into this roped off section.
同行的那位朋友一边带我熟悉环境，但他自己也很忙， festival 里还有不少事要处理。
Meanwhile, the family friend that I am with is sort of showing me the ropes, but of course he's very busy and has things to be doing at the festival.
他说，这儿就是大家平时聚的地方。
And he said, this is sort of the hangout spot.
明白了。
Okay.
我得走了。
I gotta go now.
我就说，好啊。
And I was like, okay.
所以你才进了十五分钟，就到了三十
So you're fifteen minutes into So thirty
进了半小时，我穿着一条长裙，外面气温有85度，这下我可真是个新手了。
minutes in, I'm wearing a long skirt and it's 85 degrees outside, which automatically I'm a rookie.
他说，好的。
And he says, okay.
这儿就是大家平时聚的地方。
This is sort of the hangout spot.
这算是咱们的联络点。
This is sort of our touch point.
咱们可以在这儿碰头。
We can meet here.
音乐节上信号不太好。
There's not a lot of service at the festival.
就是手机信号。
In terms cell service.
手机信号。
Cell service.
音乐节这儿根本没信号。
There's no service at this at the festival.
如果你要找我，咱们就在这帐篷里碰面。
So if you need to find me, we'll just meet at this tent.
我当时就说，好啊，太好了。
I'm like, okay, sweet.
我走进了帐篷。
I walk into the tent.
我心里想，太好了，有免费的食物和饮料。
I'm like, okay, free food, free drinks.
这个通行证简直太棒了。
This pass is freaking awesome.
没错。
Right.
然后我开始认出好多我听了多年的音乐人，他们的名字一直出现在音乐节的演出名单上，现在却站在我面前的免费餐点队伍里。
And then I start to recognize a lot of artists whose music I have been listening to for years now, whose name I have seen on the lineup for the festival, who are now standing in front of me at the free food line.
我心里惊呼，天哪。
And so I'm thinking, oh my god.
好吧。
Okay.
这个帐篷原来是所有艺人和表演者聚集的地方。
This tent is where all the artists and performers hang out.
因为我有这张艺人通行证，所以我也可以进这个帐篷。
And because I have this artist pass, I am also allowed to be in this tent.
我慢慢把事情串起来了。
So I'm I'm putting the pieces together slowly.
我一下子心就沉到了肚子里，心里直嘀咕：我怎么在这儿？
Immediately, my heart, like, drops to my stomach, and I'm just like, why am I here?
我不该在这儿。
I should not be here.
我应该在观众席里，和大家在一起。
I should be out in that audience with people.
我又不是表演者。
I'm not performing.
我也不是哪个乐队的成员。
I'm not part of a band.
我只是靠家里关系进来的。
I'm here on a family connection.
我也不知道该怎么说。
I feel like I don't know.
我就在想，我干嘛在这儿呢？
I just feel like, why am I here?
这场面真是尴尬死了。
This is so awkward.
更别说我还一个人在这儿。
Not to mention I'm alone.
你可以想象，这种自我怀疑的感觉，比有人陪着你一起分享这种情绪还要强烈得多。
So you can imagine that the imposter syndrome was even grander than if you're with somebody that you can bond with it over.
肯，这种情况，我们每个人都能感同身受。
Ken, this sounds like a situation that absolutely every one of us can relate to.
我反正特别有共鸣。
I know I can.
当你听她讲这个故事的时候，肯定也能感觉到那种自我怀疑和冒名顶替综合症悄悄冒出来。
And I'm sure as you're listening to her tell the story, you're feeling that same self doubt and the imposter syndrome creep up.
但事实上，你并不需要身边有名人或者特别厉害的人，也会有这种感觉。
But the fact is you don't have to be around people that are famous or people that are really big for you to feel this.
我的意思是，想想每天都会发生的那些场景。
I mean, think about the situations that happen every single day.
你在邮件群里，坐在公司会议里，周围都是人，突然就觉得别人都比你聪明，比你更有料，自己越来越缩，开始怀疑自己。
You're on an email text chain, you're sitting in a meeting at work, you're surrounded by a group of people and you start to feel like everybody's smarter than you or they've got more to contribute than you and you feel yourself shrinking and doubting yourself.
这就是自卑感在日常生活中对你施压。
That's imposter syndrome intimidating you in your everyday life.
所以这个真的太有共鸣了。
And so this is so relatable.
我想知道的是，你当时站在那儿，特别没底气，是怎么走出来的？
And I guess what I wanna know is you're standing there, you're super intimidated.
你到底是怎么扭转局面的？
How the heck did you turn this around?
我的意思是，你有没有跟谁聊过这件事？
I mean, did you actually talk to somebody?
你当时做了什么？
What did you do?
没有。
No.
我走进那个帐篷，看到一堆我一直在关注的人，突然就明白了——我手腕上这个写着‘艺术家’的通行证，意思是我能享受所有演出人员的待遇。
So basically I walk into this tent and I see all these people that I've been following and I put the pieces together and realize, oh my god, this artist pass on my wrist that says artist means that I have access to everything the performers do.
这让我立刻想把通行证扯下来，跑去观众席站着，因为我根本不是表演者。
Which immediately makes me wanna rip the thing off my arm and go stand in the audience because I'm not performing.
我不属于行业这边。
I'm not on the industry side.
我不是音乐人，我不是和谁一起登台演出的音乐人。
I'm not a musician I mean, I'm not a musician performing with anyone.
我就是以肯德尔的身份来的。
I'm just here as Kendall.
就像我之前说的，在这个行业里，我这个人还根本不存在。
And like I said before, doesn't really exist in this industry world yet.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
你不存在？
You don't exist?
我到现在还没发布任何音乐，一提到这个我就觉得特别心虚，尤其是想到自己在Spotify上连一首歌都没有。
I don't have any I don't have anything out to I feel imposter syndrome talking about the fact that I don't have music out yet on Spotify.
我真不想谈这个。
I hate talking about it.
一说起这个我就想吐。
I it makes me wanna throw up everywhere.
我简直羞得不行。
It makes me so embarrassed.
为什么？
Why?
因为别人都好像早就上道了，事业搞得有声有色的。
Because everybody else seems to have it figured out and have shit going on.
我知道，当我心态平静的时候，我会提醒自己：我有我自己的节奏。
I know that when I am not in an anxious state of mind, I I remind myself, you know, I'm on my own timeline.
我不希望你把这段放进去。
I don't really want you to include that.
不行。
No.
但我认为这很重要，因为它跟我想说的那部分直接相关。
But I think that's important because it's a it it ties into what
我本来正想跟你说这个。
I was gonna share with you.
你快说吧。
Please say that.
好。
Okay.
我特别不好意思告诉我妈，她有几千万粉丝和听众，而我到现在还没在任何流媒体平台发布过作品。
I feel very embarrassed to share with my mom's millions and millions and millions of followers and listeners that I don't have anything out on any streaming platform yet.
我没有社交媒体账号。
I don't have a social media presence.
我没有粉丝。
I don't have fans.
我什么都没有。
I don't have anything.
我在这档播客里说自己是冒牌货，可我连巡演都没上过。
And I'm talking about being an impostor on this podcast when I've never been on tour.
我的专辑还没发布。
I don't have an album out.
我没有关注者。
I don't have followers.
我没有粉丝。
I don't have fans.
我居然因为觉得自己是冒牌货而感到内疚。
I feel like an imposter for being an imposter.
我觉得我还没当够冒牌货，还不配谈这个话题。
I feel like I haven't been an imposter for long enough to talk about being an imposter.
这到底是什么意思？
What does that even mean?
这简直是冒牌货综合征的典型例子——我从来没体会过这种感觉，现在刚尝到，反而觉得连说它的资格都没有。
This is just such a classic example of the syndrome, which is I feel as though I haven't this feeling is so new to me that it feels like I don't even have enough qualification to talk about it.
你明白我的意思吗？
So Do you know what I mean?
你觉得你还没资格谈怎么应对冒牌货综合征，因为你
You don't feel like you're an authority on how to deal with imposter syndrome because you
上周末我才第一次真正感受到冒牌货综合征，确实从中学到了不少。
struggle don't with feel like I had my first real experience this past weekend dealing with imposter syndrome and I definitely learned from it.
我从这次经历里收获了很多，但这毕竟是我第一次。
I definitely gained a lot of insight from the experience, but it was my first experience.
因为是第一次，所以我觉得自己没资格谈这个。
And I feel unqualified to talk about it because it was my first experience.
你这话说得可没法吸引人听这期节目。
You're not really selling the episode.
我本想开个玩笑，你却直接说
I'm trying to make a joke and you're like
让我只说一句吧。
Well, let me just say one thing.
我现在真的觉得自己像个冒牌货。
I do feel like an imposter right now.
因为我感觉圈里其他人都比我经历得多太多了。
Because I feel like all of the other people in my industry have experienced this so much more than I have.
现在我却跑上来，摆出一副说教的样子，想告诉所有人你到底
And now I'm getting on here and getting on my soapbox and trying to tell everybody You're what
你这是在摆架子。
it's getting in your soapbox.
正因如此，这场对话才这么重要。
This is why this conversation is so important.
你就在其中。
You're in it.
是的。
Yeah.
每个听的人，都在生活的某个方面有过这种自我怀疑的感觉。
Everybody listening feels like an imposter in some area of their life.
每个人都能感同身受——我就站在那些我想要成为的人身边。
Everybody can relate to that feeling like here I am, I am physically next to the people who are doing what I wanna do.
离得那么近，我伸出手就能碰到他们。
And it's so close I can reach out and touch it.
那些我崇拜的人，我看过他们的直播，见过他们在颁奖礼上的样子，现在就站在我面前。
These people I've admired, I've streamed, I've watched them at award shows, they're standing right there.
他们正在做我梦想的事。
They're doing what I wanna do.
而唯一阻碍我去做自己想做的事的，就是觉得自己还不够好，觉得自己没那个本事。
And the only thing that's keeping me from doing what I wanna do is this feeling of not being ready or this feeling that I'm not gonna have what it takes.
这种觉得自己微不足道的感觉。
This feeling of being a nobody.
总觉得别人早就把这事做成了。
This feeling like somebody's already done it.
还有我的位置吗？
Is there room for me?
因为你正身处其中，所以你比谁都更清楚大家此刻的状态，肯。
And because you're in it, you are in a much better place to validate where everybody is, Ken.
有人一进来就说：‘我早就摸清门道了，当你觉得自己是冒牌货时，就这么做、这么做、再这么做。’
Like somebody's already figured this shit out coming in and being like, Well, when you feel like an imposter, do this, this and this.
等你熬过去之后，说起来当然容易。
It's easy when you're through it.
你现在就正卡在里头。
You're right up against it right now.
你感受到的这种紧张感，其实很重要。
That tension that you feel is important.
我记得，天哪，那应该是九年前，我刚踏入演讲行业的时候，肯。
I remember, God this must have been like nine years ago when I first got into the speaking business, Ken.
那时候我还没拿过一分钱的演讲报酬。
I hadn't been paid to give a speech.
刚起步的时候，我接到邀请，去加州参加一个活动，上个小组讨论。
And I get invited, as I'm just starting out, to go to this event in California and speak on a panel.
连我自己都不记得当时讲的是啥了。
I don't even know what the hell I was speaking about.
我只记得有个开场招待会，明白吗？
All I know is there was this opening reception, okay?
就是你刚才说的那种场面。
Sort of like what you're describing.
是给所有受邀来演讲的人准备的开场招待会。
An opening reception for the people who had been invited to speak at this thing.
所以跟你一样，我走进那个房间，脖子上挂着胸牌，你手腕上戴着那个艺术家的腕带。
And so like you, I walk into this room, I have the lanyard around my neck, you've got the little artist thing around your wrist.
我一进门，天哪，居然是超模克里斯蒂·图尔顿。
And I walk in and I am like, Oh my God, there's Christie Turlington, the supermodel.
天哪，那是作家格蕾琴·鲁宾。
Oh my gosh, there's Gretchen Rubin, the author.
天哪，还有那个人。
Oh my gosh, there's this person.
那边还有个名人。
There's that person there.
我看到这么多大人物，全都是要上台发言的。
And I see all these famous people, all of whom are speaking.
我觉得自己根本没资格待在这儿。
I felt like I had no business being there.
对，我也是。
Yeah, same.
大家都在聊天，好像彼此都认识。
And all these people were talking and they all seemed to know each other.
有几次我心想：来了来了，又要来了。
And there were a couple instances where I'm like, Okay, here we go.
我走过去跟一群人打招呼，自我介绍，结果他们都转过头来。
And I would walk up to a group of people and I'd introduce myself and they'd all turn.
哦，你是做什么的？
Oh, what do you do?
我根本不知道该怎么回答。
And I didn't even know how to answer it.
我只做过一次TEDx演讲，那时候还没人知道。
I had given one TEDx talk and nobody had heard of it yet.
我没出过书。
I didn't have a book.
我什么都没有。
I didn't have anything.
我感觉自己一无所有。
I felt like I had nothing.
我甚至不知道自己为什么会在那儿。
I didn't even know why I was there.
我刚做完自我介绍，人家就问：‘你写书了吗？’
And after I would introduce myself and people were like, Oh, did you write a book?
我就说：‘没有，我只是聊聊激励这方面的事。’
And I'm like, No, I'm just kind of speaking about motivation.
哦，这样啊。
Oh, okay.
然后他们就转头走开了。
And then they turn.
但我心里突然有点触动，虽然觉得自己像个骗子，但背后其实有更深的东西在发生。
And something flipped in me because I felt like such a fraud being there but something deeper was going on.
事情就是这样的。
And this is what was going on.
就在那一刻，我意识到我想做点真正有意义的事。
I realized in that moment that I wanted to do something that mattered.
我想做点什么，写本书，或者干点别的，让人一见到我就说：‘哦，你就是写《五秒法则》的那位女士？’
I wanted to do the work or write a book or do something that when I walked into a room it was like, Oh, you're the woman who wrote The Five Second Rule?
我超爱这种感觉。
I freaking love that thing.
那种不舒服的感觉，当时真够糟的。
And that discomfort that I felt, it sucked in the moment.
我回了酒店房间。
I went back to my hotel room.
我没去参加晚宴。
I didn't go to the dinner.
我哭了。
I cried.
我整晚没睡，一直在想：我该怎么办？
I stayed up all night, what am I gonna do?
但内心深处有个声音告诉我：你不想一直这样下去。
But there was something deep inside of me that was like, you don't wanna feel this way.
你有东西想要贡献出来。
You have something that you wanna contribute.
觉得自己被挡在想参与的事情外面，这其实很正常。
And feeling like you're on the outside of something that you wanna be a part of is a normal experience.
你看，那种自我怀疑的感觉，你刚进音乐节艺术区那几个小时的不安，其实是你的梦想在提醒你：该干活了。
See, I think imposter syndrome, that discomfort that you were feeling that first few hours at the artist tent at this music festival, I think that is your dreams going, We got work to do.
天哪。
Oh shit.
你真想进到里面去吗？
You wanna be in here?
你真想做这件事吗？
You wanna be doing this?
你有东西可以拿出来分享吗？
You got stuff to contribute?
该醒醒了。
You gotta wake up.
你得主动一点，把自己推到前面去。
You gotta start putting yourself out there.
这一步特别关键，因为只有你在乎的事情，才会让你有冒名顶替综合征——因为你真正在意自己做的事有没有成果。
This is a step on the path that's so important because you only feel imposter syndrome in situations that you care about because you care about whether or not you've got something to show for what you're doing.
就像我说的，我一个人待着，周围都是那些很有名的艺术家从我身边走过，而我手里就拿着一罐白爪威士忌。
Well, like I said, I was alone and all of these very established famous artists are walking by me and I'm literally drinking a White Claw alone.
我总不能走过去跟人说：‘去Spotify听听我的歌吧。’
And it's not like I can be introducing myself to people and saying, oh, go check me out on Spotify.
也不能说：‘去Instagram关注我一下。’
Go check me out on Instagram.
我只能打招呼说：‘嗨，我是肯德尔。’
It's like, hi, I'm Kendall.
然后人家点点头，我就又消失了。
And then I'm dis and then I disappear.
有个人甚至走过来问我：‘你还好吗？’
To the point where someone literally came up to me and was like, are you okay?
我看起来根本就不该在那儿。
Like, I looked like I was not supposed to be there.
那种自我怀疑的情绪，简直都写在脸上了。
That's how, like, the imposter syndrome had basically creeped onto my face.
我特别不自在，特别尴尬，一直在想：我干嘛在这儿？
I was so uncomfortable and so just, like, embarrassed and just felt like, why am I here?
我想离开。
I need to leave.
我不想待在这儿。
I don't wanna be here.
我想回家。
I wanna go home.
我不愿意跟别人说我是做艺术的。
I don't I don't wanna tell people I'm an artist.
我现在完全不觉得自己是那种人。
I don't feel like that at all right now.
我觉得没人会在意我，连我自己都不在意。
I don't feel like anyone's gonna give a shit about me, including myself.
不过，那确实挺糟糕的。
Like But yeah, it was horrible.
真的特别糟糕。
It really horrible.
但我的意思是
But I mean
那后来怎么改变的呢？
What changed though?
因为这正是我想去的地方。
Because this is where I wanna go to.
我们都可以先稍等一下。
We can all Well, hold that thought.
我想先插播一段赞助商的广告。
I wanna hear a quick word from our sponsors.
回来之后，我们会直接回到你按下开关的那一刻，因为你真的做到了。
And when we come back, we're gonna go right to the moment where you flip the switch because you did.
你让那个周末成了你人生中最棒的时光之一，结识了非凡的朋友，三天后回家时，你已经完全不一样了。
And you made it one of the best weekends of your life and you made incredible friendships and you came home a different person after those three days.
等我们回来，再聊聊到底是什么发生了变化。
And we're gonna talk about what changed when we come back.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是梅尔·罗宾斯，坐在我旁边的是我23岁的女儿，她正在追逐成为巡演歌手兼词曲作者的梦想。
I'm Mel Robbins and I'm sitting here with our daughter, who's 23 and she is pursuing her dream and goal of being a touring singer songwriter.
我们现在聊的是冒名顶替综合征。
And we're talking about imposter syndrome.
肯，我想回到第一天，你站在音乐节的艺人帐篷里，整整五个钟头的那个时刻。
And so Ken, I wanna go back to the moment where you've been standing in the artist tent at this music festival for the first five hours on day one.
有个人走过来问你：你还好吗？
Somebody has come up to you and said, are you okay?
因为你看起来格格不入，一个人拿着罐白爪啤酒，周围全是你们崇拜的巡演音乐人。
Because you look so out of place and you're alone drinking a White Claw surrounded by all these touring musicians that you admire.
你是怎么
How did
你做了什么
you what did you
把局面扭转过来的？
do to turn this around?
你真的把局面扭转了，兄弟。
Because you turned it around, dude.
这肯定不是马上发生的。
Well, it definitely was not immediate.
那种感觉又持续了好几个小时。
It it continued for about a few more hours.
但你跟我讲讲具体是怎么回事吧。
But Just tell me about it.
是的。
Yeah.
那个帐篷里，我现在有点微醺，因为一个人喝了两罐白爪。
That tent and I'm slightly tipsy now because I've had two white claws alone.
我就一个人坐着。
And I'm sitting alone.
我跟你说，帐篷里每个人都有伴，少说两三个，多则四五个。
Let me just tell you, every single person in that tent was with another person, if not three or four.
我一个人坐着，肯定看起来特别怪。
I probably look so weird sitting alone.
我当时就在想，嘿，我在这儿呢。
And I was just kinda thinking, you know, I'm here.
我能和我最崇拜的那些人待在一起。
I get to be around some of my biggest inspirations.
我能去后台，离他们近在咫尺，看着他们在台上大放异彩。
I get to go backstage and be an arm's length from them while they absolutely murder it on stage.
我还能免费吃东西。
I get free food.
我还能免费拿白衣服。
I get free white clothes.
这种好事我为什么不享受呢？
Why the fuck wouldn't I enjoy this?
你懂的吧。
You know?
我就想好好享受一下，毕竟我不是上台表演的人，虽然我真希望自己能上台。
Like, I'm just gonna enjoy this because, no, I'm not performing, although I wish that I was.
没错。
No.
我没有格莱美奖，不过那确实是我一直以来的梦想。
I don't have a Grammy, although that is a dream of mine.
没错。
No.
我目前在Spotify上没有发布任何音乐，没法让这里我最喜欢的那些艺人来听。
I don't have music out on Spotify that I can tell my favorite artists that are here to listen to.
对，这些我都做不到。
No, I can't do any of that.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
至少我可以感恩自己能在这里，好好感受这份感恩，尽情享受当下。
I can be grateful that I'm here and I can lean into that gratitude and just have fun.
当我深吸一口气，对自己说：好吧，我就要开心起来。
So once I exhaled and I was like, okay, I'm gonna enjoy myself.
直到现在为止，一切都糟透了。
This has been god awful up until this point.
所以你是说，连这糟透的经历也要感恩？
So there's Grateful for the god awful.
我的意思是，为什么不呢？
There's there's I mean, why not?
为什么不开心呢？
Why not have fun?
你知道的。
You know?
我要么继续在喜欢的艺术家面前折磨自己，要么就开心点，笑出来。
I'm either gonna continue to torture myself in front of my favorite artists or I'm gonna have fun and put a smile on my face.
于是我对自己说，嘿。
So I said, you know what?
我很高兴自己能在这里。
I'm really happy that I'm here.
咱们开始找点乐子吧。
Let's start to have some fun.
这次我一个人坐着喝水，回想起这些年听过的各种建议。
And as I'm sitting alone drinking a water this time, I'm thinking about all of this advice that I've gotten over the past years.
除了这里，我还能抓住些什么，让自己在这片不属于我的地方，找到一点归属感呢？
What are other things I can lean into while being here and try and find some sense of belonging in a place that I feel I don't belong?
我想起了一位非常棒的导师肖恩·霍尔特给我的建议，他是南加州大学桑顿音乐学院的副院长。
And I think back to this piece of advice that one of my amazing mentors, Sean Holt, who is the vice dean at the Thornton School of Music at USC, gave to me.
他对我说，肯德尔，因为你才刚开始，你接下来要走进的那些场合、要经历的那些事，千万别带着一副‘我最懂’的傲慢心态进去。
And he said, you know, because you're a beginner, Kendall, these rooms that you're gonna start to walk into and these experiences that you're gonna start to have, you can't be walking in there with some massive ego thinking, you know, I know best.
我觉得自己什么都知道。
I know this.
这样可不行。
That's not the way to go about this.
对。
Mhmm.
相反，你应该带着学习的心态进去，心怀感激，珍惜每一次能学到的新东西。
But instead, you should walk into those rooms with a learner's posture and lean into the gratitude that you have for learning all that you're going to learn.
他还说，每当你走进一个新地方，心里都要清楚，你身上一定有别人没有的东西可以分享。
And he said, every room that you walk into know in the back of your mind that you have something to give to the people in that room that they don't have.
你可能自己都没意识到，但你出现在那个房间里是有原因的，你会带给他们一些他们根本不知道自己需要的东西，就像他们也会给你一些你没想到自己需要的东西一样。
You might not even know you have to give, but there's a reason you're in that room and you're gonna give them something that they don't know they needed just like they're gonna give you something you don't know you needed.
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太精彩了。
Mic drop.
谢谢你，肖恩。
Thank you, Sean.
我能在这儿停一下吗？
Can I just stop there?
对。
Yeah.
要是我刚到洛杉矶那会儿就知道这些就好了。
I wish I had known that when I walked into the room in Los Angeles.
我进去的时候心想，天啊，这些人都是我特别敬仰的，他们有名气，有成就，做着特别酷的事。
Because I walked in there and I felt like, Oh my God, these are people I admire or they're famous or they're known or they're doing cool things.
而我什么都没做成。
I'm not doing anything.
我就是一个无名之辈。
I'm a nobody.
我目前什么都没有。
I don't have anything yet.
但恰恰就是这一点最重要——还没到时候。
And yet, that's the important part, yet.
不是你做不到，而是你还没开始做。
It's not that you can't do it, it's that you haven't done it yet.
如果我当时能转变心态，告诉自己：能在这里真是太幸运了，我要主动去认识每个人，拼命学习，全身心吸收，像个初学者一样。
But if I had been able to flip to a state of I'm just so grateful to be here and I am going to introduce myself to everybody and I am going to learn as much as I can and I'm gonna soak things up and I'm gonna be like a beginner.
如果你处在我的位置，你会给我什么建议？
If you were my shoes, what's one piece of advice you would have?
就敞开心胸，好好吸收一切。
Just soak it all up and in.
那样就能摆脱那种让自我怀疑压得喘不过气的不安感。
It would have flipped off the insecurity that imposter syndrome can overwhelm you with.
当你在脑子里不断想‘我不配’‘我不属于这里’，还越想越理性、越想越深，就会把自己孤立起来。
Because when you get up in your head and you start going, I don't belong and no, no, And you become very intellectual about it, you isolate yourself.
你把自己和周围能带给你的东西，以及你能贡献的东西都隔绝开了。
And you cut yourself off from both what you can get and gain from the room and what you can give.
每当你和一个刚入门、但在你擅长的领域里充满热情的人聊天，他们的那种劲头总会感染到你。
Because every time you talk to somebody who is beginning at something you're really good at, their enthusiasm and passion always rubs off on you.
是的。
Yeah.
我慢慢放松下来，也开始主动去认识人了。
I just started to relax into it and I started to meet people.
你是怎么认识他们的？
How did you meet them?
邀请我来参加这个节庆的家人认识几个在这里的人，他把我介绍给了他们，我和这些人特别投缘，就聊开了。
Well, the family connection that I had who invited me to the festival had a few friends there and he introduced me to those people who I really hit it off with and we started talking.
那是我第一次真正和人聊天。
And it was the first time that I was talking to people.
也是我第一次能坦然接受自己的状态，直接说：我是个艺术家。
But it was also the first time that I was like able to just own where I was at and say, I'm an artist.
我是个新手。
I'm a beginner.
我目前还没拿出什么作品。
I don't have anything out.
我现在正处在创作和疗愈的状态里。
I'm just in my creative, curative space right now.
我正在做一些东西。
I'm working on some stuff.
我对这些事特别兴奋。
I'm really excited about it.
我不打算急于求成。
I'm not trying to rush the process.
我觉得，把这句话说出来，就像是把心里的担子放下了。
And I think saying that and just speaking that out into the universe was sort of a weight lifted.
只要能认识一些人，告诉他们我是新手，我有多兴奋、多感激能向他们学习，能置身于这些我多年来一直仰慕的大师们中间，这就足够了。
But just being able to meet people and tell them that I'm a beginner and that I'm so excited and that I'm so grateful to learn from them and to be just surrounded by the greats and all these people that I've just been so inspired by for the past few years was enough.
你明白吗？
Know?
怎么回事？
What happened?
他们特别友善，热情地接纳了我，带我认识了一群很棒的人。
Well, they were so nice and they welcomed me in and they took me under their wing and introduced me to a bunch of cool people.
没人一上来就因为我是个新手而评判我。
And nobody was quick to judge me that I was a beginner.
还有几个人跟我说，你真让人受鼓舞，因为我们做这行只是为了糊口。
And I had a few people even say, you know, it's so inspiring being around you because we have to make ends meet by doing this.
我们靠这个赚钱养家，有时候日子太长、太难熬，真不想干了。
And we pay our bills doing this because some days it gets long and it gets hard and we don't wanna do it.
看到你这么充满干劲、全新出发的样子，真的特别棒。
It's so cool to be surrounded by someone that's just so fresh off and ready to go.
这让我们都重新想起了当初为什么开始——因为我们真的爱这件事。
And it reminds us all of the reason that we started, which is because we fell in love with it.
而且我们能明显感受到你身上散发出的那种热爱。
And like we can feel that love coming off of you.
那真的让我特别受鼓舞，因为他们夸的不是我的原创音乐，而是我的态度、我的志向、我的干劲和我的热情——这恰恰是我在这个阶段最需要被肯定的地方。
And that was just so validating because they weren't complimenting my original music, but they were just complimenting my spirit and my ambition and my drive and my passion, which is like what I needed to be complimented on at this phase in my journey.
其实比起夸你的音乐，被夸这些特质更重要。
It's actually more important than being complimented on the
于是我就交到了很多朋友，甚至还有机会在一场深夜演出中和一些人一起登台表演。
music And so I made a bunch of friends and I even got the chance to perform with some of the people at this late night performance.
表演完之后，好几个人都主动问我有没有兴趣合作，一起写歌。
And after I performed, I had a bunch of people ask if they wanted to collaborate with me and write music with me.
那真的特别棒。
And it was just really awesome.
我觉得一旦我坦然接受自己是个新手这个事实——我并不是冒牌的新手，因为我就真的是个新手，
I think once I sort of owned where I'm at, which is a beginner, I'm not an imposter as a beginner, you know, because that's what I am.
等等，你再说一遍。
Wait, say that again.
我是个新手，这不代表我是冒牌货，因为我本来就是新手。
I'm not an imposter if I'm a beginner because that's what I am.
天哪。
Oh my God.
肯德尔，这话太有道理了。
Kendall, that's genius.
对。
Yeah.
只要你坦然接受自己的现状，那种冒牌货感觉自然就消散了。
You can diffuse the imposter syndrome if you just accept where you're at.
以前我跟那些我特别敬佩的音乐人在一起时，总觉得自己是个冒牌货，因为他们已经取得了我还没达到的成就。
I felt like an imposter around all of my favorite artists because of what they have accomplished that I haven't yet.
但只要我肯给自己空间，允许自己以当下的状态存在，那种不安感就慢慢消失了。
But if I just give myself the space to meet me where I'm at, then the imposter syndrome sort of disappears.
你根本不是冒牌货。
You're not an imposter.
你就是一个新手。
You're just a beginner.
对。
Yes.
而且我特别喜欢那种刚接触新事物的时刻，比如刚换新工作。
And what I also love about those moments where you're new to something, you're in a new job.
刚去一所新学校。
You start at a new school.
搬进新社区，或者尝试新东西的时候，你都会觉得自己像个冒牌货。
You feel like an imposter when you move to a new neighborhood, when you try something new.
我们很多人都害怕当新手，害怕自己表现平平，所以不敢允许自己只是个新手。
And I think so many of us are so terrified of feeling like a beginner or feeling mediocre at something that we don't give ourselves permission to just be a beginner.
因为我们总觉得，要是样样都懂，别人才会更喜欢我们。
Because we think people are gonna like us more if we have it all figured out.
但说实话，没人真的什么都懂。
And the truth is nobody has it figured out completely.
你敬佩的那些人，其实也早就厌倦了巡回演出。
The people that you admire are tired of touring.
所以那份热情和初学者的心态，给了他们某种力量。
And so the passion and the beginner's mindset infuses them with something.
这场对话让我收获太多了。
I have so many takeaways from this conversation.
第一，下次你觉得自己格格不入，或者心里打鼓的时候，别躲，转念去感恩。
Number one, the next time that you're in a situation where you feel like you don't belong or you get up in your head, recognize it and flip it to gratitude.
感谢自己能来到这所新学校，能进入这份新工作，能坐在这些你仰慕的人中间。
Be grateful that you are here at this new school or you're here in this new job or you are here in a room with people that you admire.
保持学习者的心态，尽可能多吸收、多观察。
Adopt that learner's mindset and just absorb as much as you can.
你刚才说的另一点特别棒——当你终于肯对自己宽容一点，承认自己就在这里、就这样时。
Another thing that you said that I think is brilliant is that as soon as you gave yourself grace to just be where you are and to say it out loud.
关于这点，我想补充几句。
Well, have something to say about that.
好的。
Okay.
换种思路来看，这也是我从肖恩·霍尔特那里学到的一条建议：当你率先坦诚说出那些让人不舒服的真相时，你就会成为房间里最有影响力的人。
Another way to think about it, and this is another piece of advice that I got from Sean Holt, is that you become one of the most powerful people in the room when you beat everybody to your inconvenient truths.
哇哦。
Woah.
这话说得太棒了。
I love that.
但我其实也不太明白这到底是什么意思。
And I don't even know what the heck it means.
咱们先休息一下，听一段赞助商的广告。
So let's take a quick break, hear a word from our sponsors.
回来之后，你得给我们好好解释一下这条建议。
And when we come back, I want you to unpack this advice for all of us.
大家别走开。
Stay with us, everybody.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是梅尔·罗宾斯。
I'm Mel Robbins.
今天和我一起的是我们的女儿肯德尔，我们刚才聊了她上周末经历的一次冒名顶替综合征的困扰。
I'm here with our daughter, Kendall, and we have been talking about an experience that she had just this past weekend with imposter syndrome.
她分享了一条特别棒的建议，帮她走出了那种状态。
And she had just shared this really incredible advice that helped her.
这是她从南加州大学的导师肖恩·霍尔特那里得到的建议，关于抢先说出那些让人不便的真相。
It was advice she got from her mentor at USC, Sean Holt, about beating people to your inconvenient truths.
肯，你能不能
Ken, can you tell
跟我们多讲讲这一点？
us more about that?
意思是，如果你是个新手，Spotify上还没有你的音乐作品，那就直接说出来，比如，你知道的，我觉得挺不好意思的，在这房间里有点格格不入。
It means if you're a beginner and you don't have music out on Spotify, just say it and just say, you know, I'm feeling pretty embarrassed and feeling a little bit out of place in this room.
太棒了。
Love that.
别一进房间就装作什么都知道，不如抢先说出那些让你不舒服的实情。
Instead of trying to pretend like you have it all figured out when you walk into this room, just beat everybody to your inconvenient truths.
我不太好意思的是，我还没发布过音乐。
It's inconvenient that I don't have music out.
我不太好意思的是，我还没办过巡演。
It's inconvenient that I haven't gone on tour.
我不太好意思的是，我没什么粉丝，社交媒体上也没多少关注者。
It's in it feels inconvenient that I don't have fans or a social media following.
所以我不再装作什么都知道了，我选择坦诚，选择展现脆弱，因为如果
And so instead of pretending like I have it all figured out, I'm just gonna be honest and I'm just gonna be vulnerable because if
你从脆弱出发，就一定能建立真正的连接。
you come from a place of vulnerability, you're definitely going to make connection.
你第一次在那个音乐帐篷里对别人说‘我还没发过任何音乐’的时候，对方是怎么反应的？
What happened the first time you said to somebody in that artist tent, Well, I haven't released any music yet.
那我来说说当时说出那句话是什么感觉。
Well, let me talk about how it felt to say that.
对。
Yes.
因为那真的特别难受。
Because it was horrible.
好吧。
Okay.
那你就说出来吧。
So say it.
我第一次真正意识到自己是个新手，还能当面说出来，是在和别人聊天的时候。
I mean, the first time that I kind of recognized that I was a beginner and was able to say it out loud was when I would be talking to people.
然后，自然就会有人问：那你有发布过音乐吗？
And then, of course, the question comes, well, do you have any music out?
我那时候下巴都僵住了，硬是挤出一句‘没有’，然后说‘我刚毕业’。
And my jaw would lock and I somehow spit out no and said, I just graduated from school.
我现在正在做一些音乐。
I'm working on some music now.
我还在摸索自己是谁，想发出什么样的声音，想表达什么，但还没找到方向。
I'm trying to figure out who I am, what I wanna sound like, what I wanna say, and I'm not there yet.
但我真的很期待这个过程。
And I'm really excited for the process.
不过，我现在还没有发布任何音乐。
But no, I don't have music out.
我没有Instagram账号。
I don't have an Instagram page.
也没有粉丝。
I don't have fans.
什么都没有。
I don't have any of it.
连TikTok都没有。
I don't have TikTok.
我什么都没有。
I don't have it.
看到这里每个人都有这些，还走遍全国去演出，确实让我觉得挺害怕的。
And it's definitely scary being around everybody here that not only has that, but has gone around the country showing people.
但我还是个新手，我很兴奋，能和你们这些我仰慕已久的人在一起，我真的很开心。
But I'm a beginner and I'm excited and I'm so happy that I get to be here around all of you who are people that I've looked up to for however long.
而且我真的特别兴奋。
And, yeah, I'm just really excited.
而且大家见到我都说天啊，这太棒了。
And, you know, I was met with so much oh my gosh, that's awesome.
你得慢慢来。
You should take your time.
你还这么年轻。
You're so young.
你有的是时间。
You have all the time in the world.
我早就听人说过这些话，但这次从那些我一直特别敬仰的人嘴里听到，真的特别有共鸣。
Just things that I've been told for so long, but hearing it from these people that I've been so inspired by for so long was so validating.
你得先学会犯错，才能真正做好一件事。
It's like, you have to be bad at something before you're good at it.
很多人害怕自己不够好，所以根本不敢开始。
And people are so afraid of being not so great at something that they don't even try.
是的。
Yeah.
他们甚至不好意思承认自己才刚起步。
And they're embarrassed to admit that they're at the beginning of trying.
对。
Yeah.
而且那个帐篷里的每个人，大概都经历过和我类似的事。
And also every single person in that tent has probably had an experience like mine.
当然。
Of course.
我觉得有意思的是，你自称是新手，但你刚从全球顶尖的流行音乐项目——南加大索尔特学院毕业，跟格莱美获奖艺术家学习，还和不少音乐人合作过，你显然不是新手，只是在巡演艺术家这条路上才刚起步。
You know what I also find interesting is that you call yourself a beginner, but you just graduated from the top program in the world for pop music at USC Thornton, studying with Grammy award winning artists and collaborating with plenty of musicians, you're not exactly a beginner but you're a beginner on the journey of the touring artist world.
所以我觉得‘新手心态’其实分不同层次。
And so I think that there are levels to that beginner mindset.
我刚开始做这个播客的时候，对音频制作根本不算新手。
Because when I started this podcast, I was not a beginner when it comes to audio.
我2008年就主持过广播节目，还拿过奖。
I hosted a radio show in 2008 and won awards for it.
我也给Audible录过不少有声书，但当我第一次做播客时，真觉得自己像个什么都不会的新手。
And I've published all these audio books with Audible, but I felt like a beginner that had never done a podcast when I No, started not
我唱歌也是新手。
a beginner singer.
我写歌也是新手。
I am a beginner songwriter.
对。
Yes.
我是个刚进入艺术圈的新手。
I am a beginner in an artist tent.
我是个在向我最敬仰的艺术家们请教的新手。
Am a beginner talking to my favorite artists.
我排在自己最崇拜的音乐人身后，像个新手一样等待着。
I am a beginner waiting in line behind my favorite musicians.
我其实拥有太多东西了。
Like, there are so many things that I have.
这一切其实都说明了一点：总有东西可以学，也总有东西可以分享。
It all ties back into the there's something to learn and there's something to give.
如果你只想着我能给予什么，就会困在自己的世界里，没法真正感受到感恩和付出的意义，反而变得太自我中心。
I think if you're only on I have something to give, you're gonna get too caught up in your own world and you're not gonna be able to feel into the gratitude and the service and you're gonna be too, like, obsessed with yourself.
我能得到什么？
What do I get?
我能给予什么？
What do I give?
我该付出什么？
What do I give?
一切都围绕着我。
It's all about me.
一切都围绕着我，但又不是。
It's all about me and it's not.
然后你开始想，我该学点什么？
And then if you get into the, what do I have to learn?
我该学点什么？
What do I have to learn?
我该学点什么？
What do I have to learn?
你会把自己变得太浅薄，连自己真正能贡献的东西都来不及展现。
You're just gonna dumb yourself down so much that you don't even give yourself the opportunity to express what you do have to give.
我确实还没想明白。
And I definitely have not figured it out.
虽然在这档播客里听起来我好像已经掌握了，但平衡这件事，其实是每天都要去实践的。
Although it sort of maybe on this podcast sounds like I have, but the balance thing, it's an everyday practice.
有一件事。
One thing
根据你刚才说的，我想指出，你最先给出的东西其实是你的幽默感。
I wanna point out based on what you told me is that the first thing that you gave is your sense of humor.
这跟音乐一点关系都没有。
It had nothing to do with music.
你刚认识那个人的时候，就开始讲笑话，而那个人很有名，真正打破僵局的是你的幽默、热情，还有那种初学者的心态。
You started cracking jokes with somebody that you were introduced to that is highly regarded and it was your humor and your passion and your beginner mindset that broke the ice.
你因此和那个人建立了非凡的联系，而他很可能会在你未来的职业生涯中扮演重要角色。
And had you make this incredible connection with somebody who will probably be part
你未来的职业生涯中扮演重要角色。
of your career moving forward.
我对冒名顶替综合征的另一种理解是，我觉得自己其实是个无名之辈。
Another way that I think about imposter syndrome is I think about the fact that I'm a nobody.
我那时候就是这种感觉。
That's kind of what I was feeling.
我一直在给我在南加大毕业的朋友们发消息，他们都是特别厉害的音乐人，出过作品，也是我最好的朋友。
I was literally texting my friends who I graduated with at USC who are incredible musicians and have music out and are just my best friends.
我跟他们说：我就是一个无名小卒。
And I was texting them being like, I'm a nobody.
我怎么会在这儿？
Why am I here?
刚才某某人从我身边走过。
So and so just walked by.
我一个人喝着酒。
I'm drinking alone.
帮帮我吧。
Help me.
他们全都回我：你可是肯德尔·罗宾斯啊。
And they were all responding like, you're Kendall effing Robbins.
你不是无名之辈。
You're not a nobody.
去做你自己吧。
Like, go be you.
去享受一下吧。
Go have fun.
你本来就应该在那里。
You're supposed to be there.
我爱你们所有人。
Love you guys.
你知道自己是谁。
You know who you are.
我觉得，当我觉得自己是无名之辈时，之所以觉得周围的人都很了不起，是因为他们取得了那么多荣誉和成就。
And I think in saying like, I'm a nobody, the only reason that I was thinking everybody around me were somebodies is because of the accolades and the accomplishments that they've achieved.
还有接下来
And the followings
就是啊。
of Yeah.
接下来是：
The followings.
但在我看来，粉丝、奖项、荣誉、那些我身边所有人所获得的关注，并不能定义他们是谁。
But like the fans, at least in my opinion, the fans, the awards, the accolades, the attention that all of the people I was surrounded by have are not who they are.
我在想这个问题的时候，就觉得某某某并不是她的格莱美奖。
As I was thinking about this, I was going, you know, so and so is not her Grammy.
她就是她自己。
She's her.
我现在虽然没有新音乐发布，但我依然是我，我照样可以做我自己。
I don't have music out right now, but I'm still me and I can still be me.
说到底，我们其实都是普通人，只有当我们有东西拿出来展示的时候，别人才觉得我们了不起。
And at the end of the day, we're all kind of nobodies because people think we're somebody's when we have stuff to show.
但如果没有那些外在的东西，我们就是最真实的自己。
But without that stuff, we're just us.
生命的美好就在于，我们都不过是自己。
The beauty of life, we're all just us.
有意思的是，你刚才说，人们觉得你是个人物，是因为你有东西拿得出手。
You know what's interesting is that you just said people think you're somebody because you have something to show for yourself.
但我们其实都是普通人，因为你身上有某种独一无二的东西，别人谁都没有。
But we're all just nobodies because there is something that is special about you that nobody else has.
是的。
Yeah.
这个角度想得真好。
That's a great way of thinking about it.
我觉得‘普通人’这个词听起来太消极了，让人觉得好像自己没人注意。
And I think the word nobody is it's so negative and people think, oh, I'm invisible.
其实我们都只是在做自己的事，我没新歌发布，没得过奖，也没别人那样的粉丝群。
Like, we're all kinda just doing our own thing because I don't have music out, because I don't have these awards, because I don't have this following that everyone around me has.
你说是不是？
I'm like, you know what?
我所能做的，就是做我自己。
All I can do is just be me.
这大概就是我整个职业生涯里唯一想做的事。
And that's kind of all that I'm gonna do throughout my career.
所以我现在就打算这么做，因为我希望，哪怕将来我真的获得了那些荣誉，有了那么多粉丝，我依然能做自己。
So I'm just gonna do that right now because I hope that even when I do have those accolades and when I do have those fans, I can still be me.
我相信，我身边这些人在某种程度上，也都在努力做自己。
And I'm sure that all these people around me at some capacity are just trying to be themselves too.
我明白了，也希望你们能明白：当我只是做自己的时候，我所给予别人的，根本和我的音乐、嗓音，或者我原本以为的那些东西毫无关系。
I learned and I hope you guys can learn that in just being me, the things that I started to give had nothing to do with my music and nothing to do with my voice and nothing to do with anything that I thought it would have to do with.
当你走进某个场合，觉得自己像个冒牌货时，你真正能带给别人的，很可能和你的职业头衔、或大学里学来谋生的技能没什么关系。
It it the things that you are gonna give in these rooms that you walk into where you feel like an imposter will likely have nothing to do with that actual career or the skill set you mastered in college to get the job that you got.
更可能的是，它来自你的真诚、某个让人有共鸣的经历、你的幽默感，或者你对缝纫的热爱。
It's probably gonna have to do with your humanity or some experience you had that's relatable or your sense of humor or the fact that you're passionate about sewing.
我也说不准。
I don't know.
谁知道会变成什么样呢？
Like, who who knows what it's gonna be?
但我上周末发现，人们之所以被我吸引，是因为我的幽默感和那些有点不合时宜的笑话，真的给那些房间带来了不少笑声。
But I think what I learned this past weekend is that people felt a magnetic pull towards me because of my humor and inappropriate jokes that really, I guess, brought some some laughter to the rooms that I was walking into.
我带给人们欢笑和轻松，而他们也正是从这些地方学到了东西。
And in giving people comedic relief and giving people laughter, that's what they learned from me.
反过来，我也开始从他们身上学到东西，彼此之间的通道是完全敞开的。
And in turn, I started learning from them and the door is all open.
对。
Yep.
在那些场合里，就做你自己，别怕自己是新手，抢先说出那些让你不舒服的真话，诚实一点，做真实的自己。
And like lean into you in those rooms and just be you and recognize you're a beginner, beat people to your inconvenient truths, be honest Just by telling be you.
只要你做自己，你就会付出，也一定会收获。
And I think if you're you, you're going to give and you will also receive.
如果我非要装成那个拿过一堆奖、有百万粉丝的样子，那我就不是肯德尔了。
If I was trying to be somebody that had all these awards or had a TikTok following or whatever it may be, I wouldn't be Kendall.
没错。
Right.
我就是肯德尔，她度过了一个很棒的周末。
And I was Kendall and she had a great weekend.
我交了不少朋友。
I made a bunch of friends.
吃了不少好吃的。
I ate good food.
见到了老朋友。
I saw old friends.
也结识了新朋友。
I made new friends.
战胜自卑感的一个办法，就是开始告诉自己：我在这里是有原因的。
One of the things that will beat imposter syndrome is when you start to also tell yourself that there's a reason I'm here.
我觉得我们之前没好好聊过这个。
We didn't talk about this enough, I don't think.
好吧，我之所以在这儿，肯定是有原因的。
Okay, well, there's a reason why I'm here.
你没必要非得想，我配得上待在这个房间里。
You don't have to be like, I deserve to be in this room.
相信自己。
Grab faith.
你在这儿是有理由的，也许你现在还不清楚是为什么。
You're in the room for a reason and you might not know why.
但你要相信，你出现在这里一定有它的意义。
But have faith that there is a reason for you to be in that room.
这里有些东西等着你去学习。
There's something for you to learn.
这里也有东西可以让你付出，这正是你在这里的原因。
There's something for you to give and that's why you're there.
当你告诉自己，你有信心，你坐在这里、靠近这些人，都是有原因的。
When you tell yourself that you have faith that there's a reason why you're sitting in this room, there's a reason why you're near these people.
你来这所学校，一定有你的原因。
There's a reason why you're at this school.
如果你一时还信不自己配得上待在这里，那就告诉自己：这里一定有你需要学习的东西，有你要领悟的课，有你要发现的关于自己的真相。
And if you can't muster up the belief that you deserve to be, anchor yourself in that there's something for you to learn, there's a lesson, there's something for you to discover about yourself.
回想九年前，我坐在那个房间里，周围都是我仰慕的名人，觉得自己根本不配，可现在我知道，我那时出现在那里，是有原因的。
Because when I look back at my experience nine years ago and I was in that room with all those people I admired, all these famous people and I felt so unworthy, There was a reason I was supposed to be there.
那种不安的感觉，我不想再在这样的场合里体会了。
That discomfort that I felt, I don't wanna feel like this in rooms like this.
我想成为那种真正做出过重要贡献的人。
I wanna feel like I'm somebody who's contributed something that's important.
正是这种想法，开始推动我前进。
That's what started to motivate me.
正是它让我接受了自己真的想写一本书的念头。
That's what got me to accept the fact that I really wanted to be a person that had published a book.
接下来两三年，我依然觉得自己是个冒牌货，但还是坚持出席每一个场合。
I showed up in rooms for the next two, three years, Ken, still feeling like an imposter.
哦，我敢说这种感觉永远不会消失。
Oh, I'm sure it never goes away.
它会不断升级到新的层次。
There are new levels to it.
当我见到亚历克斯·库珀，上了她的节目《Call Her Daddy》时，我简直佩服得五体投地——她是全球排名第一的女性播主，而那时我的播客还没上线呢。
When I met Alex Cooper and was on her show, Call Her Daddy, and I was in awe of her, the number one female ranked podcaster in the world and I hadn't even launched my podcast yet.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我就拼命吸收她身上所有能学的东西，真的学到很多。
I just absorbed everything I could learn from her and I learned a lot.
她太厉害了。
She's amazing.
所以你总会遇到这样的时刻，因为你又得从零开始。
So there are going to be moments where you feel that because you're gonna be a beginner again.
但只要你真把肯和我跟你说的这些话放在心上，你就不用把自己逼到崩溃。
But if you really embrace what Ken and I are sharing with you, you don't have to destroy yourself.
你可以立刻觉察到这种情绪，把它转化成一次学习的机会，一个感恩的时刻，并提醒自己：哇，我此刻站在这里，是因为有某些东西是我现在必须通过做这件事来学习的。
You can immediately catch yourself and flip it into a learning opportunity and a gratitude moment and reminding yourself that, wow, I have faith that I'm here right now because there is something I'm meant to learn by doing this right now.
所以我不可能一开始就做得完美无缺，也不可能做到十全十美，我就是我，我会在这个过程中不断学习。
So I'm not gonna get it right, I'm not gonna be perfect, I'm gonna be me and I'm gonna learn.
这种心态对我帮助很大，我相信对正在听的你也一样。
And that has so helped me and I think it'll help you listening right now.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你刚才提到的一点很有道理，冒名顶替综合征其实源于一种心态，就是‘我真的很希望这一切能像真的那样’。你之所以会有这种感觉，恰恰是因为你不想在那种场合里觉得自己是个冒牌货。
And I think the thing you also said about the fact that imposter syndrome I think comes from a place of, well, I really want this to feel like The only reason that you're feeling that, that imposter syndrome is because you want to not feel like an impostor in those rooms.
你希望自己能成为那个说‘行’的狠角色。
You wanna be a bad ass in Yes.
一切
All
都是好事。
those This is a good thing.
这是件好事。
It's a good thing.
这就像你内心的指南针在提醒你：对，这才是你真正想要的。
It's kinda like your mental compass going like, yeah, this is what you want.
当然，还是得付出努力。
There's a to There's work do.
我去参加金融展会的时候就不会有冒名顶替综合症，因为我根本不懂那行。
I mean, I don't feel impostor syndrome when I go to like a financial convention because I don't know anything about that.
我也不想懂。
I don't want to.
我也没那个热情。
And I don't have a passion to.
我也不想去学。
Don't I don't desire to.
我根本不会想：天啊。
I'm not like, oh my god.
我根本不可能在这行混出名堂。
I ain't never gonna make it in this.
我心里就想，我真不想待在这儿。
I'm like, I don't wanna be here.
我不愿意待在这个房间里。
I don't wanna be in this room.
我想去别的房间，可偏偏那些我最想去的地方，反而让我觉得头疼。
I wanna be in a different room, but it's the rooms that you wanna be in that you're like, oh, fuck.
我不确定自己是不是该在这儿。
I don't know if I'm supposed to be here.
这事儿考验你的一切。
I don't it it tests everything.
它逼着你直面自己。
It makes you look in the mirror.
它就像一束光，照出你对自己痴迷的事物其实一无所知，反而让你更想拥有它们。
It it kinda like shines a light on the things you don't know about what you're so obsessed with and makes you want them.
这真把你吓坏了。
And that scares the shit out of you.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It's true.
我觉得这其实回到一个想法：有些日子，你在房间里就是个新手。
I think it comes back to the idea that some days you're gonna be a beginner in the room.
有些日子，你就是专家。
Some days you're gonna be the expert.
不管你是在那个房间、帐篷里、后台，还是在健身课上，只要你开始觉得‘我不该在这儿’，
If you find yourself in that room or that tent or backstage or in that workout class, wherever you are, and you start to feel that creeping up, I shouldn't be here.
我不属于这里。
I don't belong here.
我不知道该怎么做。
I don't know what to do.
我不知道该说什么。
I don't know what to say.
只管相信你本就该在那里，你出现是有原因的，摆出学习的姿态就好。
Just trust that you're supposed to be there and that there's a reason that you're there and take on your learner's posture.
如果你觉得啥都不懂，别人都懂，那就别灰心，反而该感恩、该兴奋，好好向别人学习，千万别走。
If you feel like you don't know anything and everybody else does, then just get really grateful and really excited to learn from the other people and don't leave the room.
别离开那个房间。
Don't leave that room.
就是这样。
Boom.
干杯。
Cheers.
干杯。
Cheers.
如果没人跟你说，那我和肯德尔现在就告诉你。
And in case no one else tells you, Kendall and I are gonna tell you.
我们爱你。
We love you.
我们爱你。
We love you.
我相信你有能力创造你想要的生活，并且愿意付出努力。
And I believe in your ability to create a life that you want and to do the work.
对。
Mhmm.
别离开那个房间。
Don't leave the room.
几天后再跟你聊。
Talk to you in a few days.
等一下，别挂电话。
Hold hold the phone.
那将会是
That would be
你听过的最吵的制冰机。
the loudest ice machine you've ever heard.
好的。
Okay.
来了。
There it goes.
克里斯？
Chris?
爸，我们在录音呢。
Dad, we're recording.
我不太想喊，克里斯！
I don't want to, like, say, like, Chris!
爸！
Dad!
别说了。
Shut up.
我们在拍视频、录音呢！
We're filming and recording!
那又怎样？
So?
所以你不能在这儿。
So you can't be here.
哦，我得小声点。
Oh, I gotta be quiet.
糟了。
Shit.
好吧。
Okay.
安静点，我刚进入状态。
Be quiet because I just had a moment.
你给破坏了。
You ruined it.
算了，真烦人。
Anyway Fuck.
我刚才有个特别棒的
I had a really good
超能力。
superpower.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
我们刚才在想，之前还聊了些什么来着？
We were thinking about we were taught what else were we talking about?
自卑感这事儿，谁没有啊，哦，哦，哦。
Imposter syndrome, nobody's oh, oh, oh.
等一下，妈妈。
Hang on, mom.
天哪。
Oh, god.
不是。
No.
我只是想确认一下有没有录上。
I'm just looking to make sure I didn't record.
对了，还有一件事。
Oh, and one more thing.
而且，这真不是彩蛋。
And no, this is not a blooper.
这是法律条款。
This is the legal language.
就是律师写的那些东西，我得念给你听。
You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
这个播客纯粹用于教育和娱乐目的。
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
我只是你的朋友。
I'm just your friend.
我不是持证治疗师，这个播客也不能替代医生、专业教练、心理治疗师或其他合格专业人士的建议。
I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.
明白了吗？
Got it?
很好。
Good.
咱们下期再见。
I'll see you in the next episode.
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