本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
今天，我们要聊的是一个隐形的童年创伤，它能解释你为什么总觉得自己迷失、疲惫，或者永远不够好。
Today, you and I are talking about the invisible childhood wound that explains why you may feel so lost, exhausted, or like you're never good enough.
你会明白，你总觉得别人都比你重要、怎么努力都不够，其实是有原因的。
You're gonna learn that there's actually a reason why you feel like everybody else comes first, that it's never good enough.
因为今天，心理咨询师兼畅销书作者凯莉·麦克丹尼尔会告诉你，你身上背负着一个从童年就埋下的伤口，而且你并不孤单。
Because today, therapist and bestselling author Kelly McDaniel is going to explain that there is this hidden childhood wound that you've been carrying for decades and you're not alone.
如果你曾经为自我价值感低落、总想讨好别人、陷入成瘾模式、关系焦虑，或者总觉得内心破碎、挥之不去地怀疑自己不够好，那这场对话一定会让你豁然开朗——它会把你现在的情绪，和那些你早已遗忘的童年经历联系起来。
So if you've ever struggled with self worth or people pleasing or addictive patterns, anxious relationships, or a sense of feeling broken, or gosh, just that nagging feeling that you're not good enough, this conversation is gonna be so illuminating because it will connect what you're feeling as an adult to all of these things that you may not even remember that happened when you were a kid.
如果你曾因家庭中的紧张关系感到沮丧，只希望家人能和平相处，或者对妻子、女友、姐妹或母亲的行为感到困惑，那你也一定得听下去。
So if you've ever felt frustrated by the tension that you feel within your family, you just wish it could be peaceful, that everyone could get along or confused by the behavior of your wife, your girlfriend, your sister, or your mom?
或者，也许你自己早就厌倦了总是把别人的幸福放在第一位，不断拼命表现，拼命证明自己值得被爱。
Or maybe you personally are tired of constantly putting everyone else's happiness first, constantly trying to overachieve, constantly trying to prove your worth.
这一集的内容，会帮你解开很多谜团。
This episode is gonna explain so much.
这会让你感觉被真正理解，还会教你如何终于不再为那些你根本没造成的痛苦责怪自己。
It is gonna make you feel so seen, and it's gonna show you how to finally stop blaming yourself for the pain you didn't cause.
我们开始吧。
Let's get into it.
嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
真高兴你现在能和我在一起。
I am so excited that you're here with me right now.
每次能和你共度这段时光，我都感到特别荣幸。
It's always an honor to be together and to get to spend time with you.
如果你是第一次听，或者是因为有人分享了这期节目才来的，我想专门花点时间，亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客的大家庭。
If you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you, I just wanted to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
我特别期待你认识今天的嘉宾——治疗师凯莉·麦克丹尼尔，她会告诉你：你并没有破碎。
I cannot wait for you to meet today's guest, therapist Kelly McDaniel, who is here to tell you, you're not broken.
凯莉是一位知名的整合心理治疗师，毕业于乔治城大学，她的工作已经帮助了数百万人。
Kelly is a renowned holistic psychotherapist who graduated from Georgetown University and whose work has helped millions of people.
她还是畅销书《母性饥渴》的作者，这本书为成千上万患者共同面临的一个普遍问题命名。
She's also the bestselling author of the book Mother Hunger, which has given a name to a very common issue that thousands of her patients have faced.
在这本书里，她解释了成年后可能遇到的种种挣扎——比如讨好型人格、完美主义、职业倦怠、总是忙着照顾别人的情绪，甚至是成瘾问题——这些都可以追溯到童年时期与母亲相处的经历。
In this book, she explains the connection between the struggles that you may face as an adult, whether you're struggling with people pleasing, or perfectionism or burnout or constantly managing everybody else's happiness or addiction, that all of this can all be traced back to the experiences that you had with your mom during your childhood.
所以，请大家和我一起欢迎凯利·麦克丹尼尔来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。
So please help me welcome Kelly McDaniel to the Mel Robbins podcast.
这真是一个
It's a
非常荣幸能来到这里。
thrill to be here.
你做的研究太棒了，我很高兴你愿意跟我聊聊‘母亲缺失’这个话题。
The work you're doing is phenomenal, and I'm just thrilled that you're interested in talking to me about Mother Hunger.
你的研究，以及你作为女儿和母亲这两个身份去深入探讨这个主题，真的彻底改变了我的生活和我这个人。
Well, your work and this topic and digging into it both as a daughter and a mother, has really changed my life and who I am.
我认为这是人际关系中最重要的话题之一，但没人敢谈，因为我们害怕面对它。
And I believe this is one of the most important topics when it comes to relationships that nobody's talking about because we're afraid to talk about it.
那我想先从这里开始，你能解释一下什么是母亲饥渴吗？
And so where I wanna start is can you define what mother hunger is?
对于现在正在听的有些人来说，他们可能从来没听过这个词
For somebody that's listening right now that has never heard that term
是的。
Mhmm.
那到底是什么意思呢？
What is it?
母亲饥渴指的是对某种特定爱的渴望，而这种爱我们常常误以为是浪漫爱情。
Mother hunger is a term for a yearning, for a certain quality of love that a lot of times we confuse with romantic love.
我们可能会在伴侣或朋友身上寻找这种爱，却始终感到失望，因为它从未真正出现。
We may look for this kind of love from partners, from our friends, and be frustrated that it's not ever really happening.
这是理解它的其中一个方面。
So that's one piece of defining it.
另一个方面则跟我们失去的东西有关。
The other piece is related more to what we lost.
所以，母性渴望意味着在你成长的关键时期，有这三样东西中的一样或全部缺失了。
So mother hunger means one of three things went missing or maybe all three of them went missing in your formative years.
明白了。
Okay.
我们需要被呵护，大脑才能健康发展。
We need nurturing to grow the brain.
我们需要被保护，才能真正茁壮成长。
We need protection in order to flourish.
我们需要感到安全。
We need to feel safe.
等我们再大一点，还需要有人给予指引。
And then as we get a little older, we need guidance.
作为女儿，我们从小就会从母亲身上寻求这所有的支持。
As daughters, we look for all of these things from our mother.
我们一出生，就已经爱上了母亲。
We're already in love with her when we're born.
我们熟悉她的气味。
We know her smell.
我们熟悉她的心跳。
We know her heartbeat.
她的身体是我们第一个家。
Her body is our first home.
当我们来到这个世界时，本能地期待能一直贴着她。
When we come into the world, we're expecting to stay close to her.
我们的身体天生就适合靠近她。
Our bodies are designed to be near hers.
这就是养育。
That's nurturing.
为了喂奶、拥抱和睡觉，我们都需要和妈妈待在一起。
Stay close to mom for breastfeeding, for holding, for sleeping.
我们本就不该被分开。
We're not meant to be separated.
保护意味着我们感到足够安全，而她也足够安全，可以靠近我们。
Protection is that we feel safe enough, and she is safe enough to be close to us.
如果她不安全，我们大概也不会觉得安心。
If she's not safe, chances are we're not gonna feel very safe.
所以，保护是个大问题。
So protection is a is a big issue.
然后是引导。
And then guidance.
当我们长大进入青春期，开始思考自己将来会成为什么样的人时，有些人很幸运，能从妈妈身上找到方向，但很多人并没有。
As we grow into adolescence and then we start to think about who we're gonna be when we grow up, some of us are lucky enough to have a mom that we can look to for that inspiration, but a lot of us don't.
也许你有一个充满关爱的母亲，却没有一个好的引路人；也许你有一个非常保护你的母亲，但她却很冷淡；又或者你母亲完全放任不管，让你自己做主，可你始终觉得不安全。
And so maybe we had a nurturing mother, but we didn't have a good guide or maybe we had a very protective mother, but she was kinda cold or maybe we had a a mother that was just laissez faire, go do whatever you want and we didn't quite feel safe.
只要这三样中缺了任何一样，我们很可能就会感受到一种对母亲的渴望。
There were just so many manifestations of if we missed one of those three things, we're probably gonna feel some mother hunger.
你知道吗？在你那本畅销书《母亲饥饿》里，我特别喜欢开头那段话——你告诉读者，当你在了解‘母亲饥饿’这种隐秘的悲伤时，这种悲伤源于你和母亲之间的巨大落差，我想你用的词是‘养育方式’，对吧？就是你和你妈妈的关系。
You know, one of the things that I love in your bestselling book, Mother Hunger, is that in the introduction, you tell readers that as you're learning about mother hunger, which is this kind of quiet grief that you feel because you have a big mismatch with the way that you were mothered, I guess, is the word that you would use, right, your relationship with your mom.
你邀请读者以女儿的视角来审视母亲饥饿这个话题。
You invite readers to really look at the topic of mother hunger through the lens of being a daughter.
为什么你要给自己许可，用全新的眼光重新看待你成长过程中家里的真实情况，重新审视你和母亲之间真实的关系？这正是你接下来要教我们的。
Why is it important to give yourself permission to look with fresh eyes at what it was truly like for you in your household growing up, what your relationship was truly like with your mother for the first time with fresh eyes through the lens of what you're about to teach us?
我觉得，如果我们把这本书当成一本育儿指南来看，就很难用全新的眼光去看了。
Well, I think it's difficult to look with fresh eyes if we read this book as a parenting manual.
所以，如果你是位妈妈，拿起这本书时，很容易就开始反思自己是不是个好母亲，这种倾向太普遍了。
So if any of you out there, if you're a mom, it the tendency to pick up this book and start to examine how you've been a mother or are a mother is is ripe.
但这不是我写这本书的初衷。
And we don't that's not why I wrote this book.
事实上，我差点就没写这本书，因为我真的不想再给女性增添一份负担，让她们为当女人、当妻子、当妈妈的事更自责。
In fact, I almost didn't write this book because I didn't want women to have another thing beating them up about what to do as women, what to do as a wife, a mother.
我不想再加入那种已经不公平地压在女性身上的压力浪潮。
I didn't wanna add to the movement that has already burdened women unfairly.
这本书根本不是为了责怪母亲。
This book isn't about blaming mothers at all.
这讲的是一种长期以来无名无状、无人敢触碰的隐性心碎。
It's about an invisible heartbreak that has been, until now, until we had a name, untouchable.
当我们意识到自己渴望的那种爱从未出现时，不是因为我们太依赖，也不是因为我们有缺陷，而是因为我们是人——孩子本就需要这样的爱才能健康成长。
When we know that we are yearning for a certain quality of love that just wasn't there, not because we're needy, not because we're broken, but because we're human and this is what little humans need to develop.
但大多数人都没得到过。
Most of us didn't get it.
我们的文化根本没为父母提供条件，让他们能给孩子这样的爱。
The our culture is not set up for parents to provide this for their children.
这跟爱不够没关系。
So it's not about lack of love.
也不是谁做错了什么。
It's not about somebody doing something wrong.
这讲的是，你从小带着一种看不见的痛，而它一直在暗中操控着你的一切。
This is about growing up with an invisible heartache that's running the show.
你甚至没意识到它存在。
You didn't know it was there.
你根本不知道，这正是你吃得太多或太少的原因。
You didn't know that's why you under eat or overeat.
你根本不知道，这正是你感情关系出问题的原因。
You didn't know that's why your relationship's not working.
你根本不知道，这正是你坐不住的原因。
You didn't know that's why you can't sit still.
当我们心里堆着说不出口的伤痛时，就只能不停地奔波。
When we're sitting on a pile of heartbreak without words for it, we have to keep moving.
你不仅写了《母爱缺失》这本书，还是第一个提出‘母爱缺失’这个词的人，现在这已经是一个临床术语了。
Well, you not only wrote the book Mother Hunger, you're the first person to coin the term mother hunger, which is now a clinical term.
世界各地的治疗师、持证临床工作者和医疗专业人员都在使用这个词。
It is used by therapists and licensed clinicians and medical professionals all over the world.
当你和对方面对面坐着，听他们倾诉的时候，是的。
When you're sitting across from somebody Yeah.
他们跟你聊自己的生活，聊他们的焦虑、自我怀疑、完美主义，还有他们的希望和梦想。
And they're talking to you about their life and they're talking to their other anxiety or their self doubt or their perfectionism or their hopes and aspirations.
你在专家身上看到的这种渴望有什么表现呢？
What are the signs that you see in an expert in this kind of longing Mhmm.
这种伤痛又有哪些迹象？
And this kind of wound?
我最先注意到的是严重的倦怠感。
The first sign I see is a lot of burnout.
母亲缺失会影响我们的职业追求，也可能影响我们对身体和健康的困扰，长期的压力会让我们觉得自己哪里不对劲，进而削弱免疫系统。
Mother hunger can touch our career aspirations or lack thereof, can touch our struggle with our bodies and our health, long term stress like this, a feeling maybe that something is just wrong with me impacts our immune system.
很多人难以集中注意力，因为小时候我们的精力都用在寻找安全感上了，而不是去认识自己。
A lot of us have trouble with concentration because our life energy growing up went to finding safety rather than figuring out who we are.
我们所有的能量都花在问自己：我安全吗？
All of our energy went into, am I okay?
我要怎么做，才能让身边的人——我的照顾者——爱我？
How do I make these people around me, my caregivers love me?
我们根本没机会发展出自己的愿望和渴望，注意力也早早被切断了。
And we didn't really develop our own wishes, longings, and and our attention span really got short circuited.
所以很多人从小就有注意力不集中的问题。
So a lot of us grow up, with concentration difficulty.
那么可以说，完美主义是其中之一吗？
So is it fair to say that perfectionism
对。
Mhmm.
过度苛责自己、饮食失调，确实都是。
Being hypercritical, eating disorders Totally.
注意力缺陷。
ADD.
多动症，没错。
AD ADHD, Yep.
坐不住。
Not being able to sit still.
总想讨好别人，一味顺从。
People pleasing, fawning.
总想讨好别人。
People pleasing.
是的。
Yeah.
时刻关注着每个人的情绪。
Monitoring the emotions of everybody.
房间里每一个人。
Everyone in the room.
总觉得别人的开心是自己的责任。
Feeling like everybody's happiness is your obligation.
总是把别人的需求放在自己前面。
Putting everybody else's needs ahead of your own.
所有这些在你心里都指向最初的那个创伤——没有得到你所需要的母爱。
This all points back in your mind to this original wound of not being mothered in the way that
你所需要的那样。
you needed to be.
这是身体所能承受的最原始的创伤。
This is the most primitive wound our body can sustain.
因为关键在于，
Because here's the
事情是这样的。
thing.
你跟我说说。
Tell me.
我们来到这个世界，身体最根本的驱动力就是依恋系统。
We come here, and the biggest biological drive in our body is our attachment system.
对某些人来说，简单点说，就是需要有人陪着。
Is more for somebody, like, in, like, super simple ways.
如果有人不明白这是什么意思，那就直说吧。
For somebody who doesn't know what that means, like, just bottom line it.
从生物本能上讲，我们对依恋的需求甚至超过对食物的需求。
We are more biologically wired to attach to someone than to eat.
这种生物本能就是这么强烈。
That's how biological this is.
我们的依恋系统会压倒生存网络中的所有其他系统。
Our attachment system will trump every other system in our survival network.
我们天生就需要进食。
So we're we're wired to eat.
我们天生就需要喝水。
We're wired to drink water.
我们天生就需要建立依恋。
We're wired to attach.
这是最强大的驱动力，这说明如果我们没有一个安全的依恋对象，后果会非常严重。
It's the strongest drive there is, which tells me that if if we don't have a safe attachment person, it's gonna have a large impact.
当我们还小、开始能活动的时候，只要眼前有依恋对象，我们就会想尽一切办法让对方关注我们。
So what's gonna happen as we're little ones and we become mobile and we start moving around, the attachment figure that we have in front of us, we're gonna do whatever we can to get that person to attach to us.
我们根本不会想到，那个照顾我们的人——比如妈妈或其他看护者——可能太忙、太消沉、太心不在焉，或者身体不好。
It's not gonna occur to us that that person, our mother, or another caregiver might be too busy, too depressed, too distracted, not well.
我们根本想不到这一点。
That doesn't occur to us.
完全想不到。
Not at all.
那个人完美无缺。
That person's perfect.
我们爱这个人。
We love that person.
我们太爱妈妈了，以至于会不惜一切代价让她爱我们。
We love our mom so much that we will do whatever we can to get her to love us.
我们会做尽各种心理和生理上的努力，而这些最终塑造了我们的性格。
We'll go through whatever psycho biological gymnastics we can that ends up forming our personality.
我们为了赢得她的认可而做的那些事，就成了我们自己的样子。
Whatever we did to earn her approval is who we become.
这是最清晰的定义。
That's the clearest definition.
你小时候为了得到妈妈的关注和爱而做的任何事，就变成了你。
Whatever it is you had to do as a child to get your mother's attention and love becomes Yeah.
如果你的童年缺乏关爱，感觉被忽视、不被保护，始终提心吊胆——不管是因为身体上的暴力或威胁，还是妈妈根本不在身边，又或者她情绪上不可靠，
Who you And if you had a childhood where you were not nurtured, where you felt invisible, where you were not protected, you felt unsafe, whether that was because of physical violence or physical threats that were going on, or your mom just wasn't around, or that your mom was emotionally not safe.
你永远猜不到她会是什么心情，会用什么语气说话，或者什么事会让她突然爆发。
You never knew what mood she was gonna be in or what tone of voice she was gonna use or what was gonna set her off.
或者你根本没法向妈妈寻求任何建议，因为她总是批评你、评判你、敷衍你，
Or you just can't go to your mom for any kind of guidance because she's critical or she's judgmental or dismissive or
或者她自己在亲密关系中也不安全，你看得出来她连自己都护不住，更别提保护你了。
Or she was in her own life, not safe in her primary relationships and you could see that she wasn't safe so you knew she couldn't protect you.
也许她从未有机会发展自己的志向，所以也没法支持你的成长。
Perhaps she never got the chance to develop her own aspirations so she couldn't really facilitate yours.
她甚至可能还嫉妒你。
She might even been jealous of you.
即使在那些本意善良、充满爱的家庭里，这种情况也可能变得极其复杂，因为事实是，我们所有家庭都身处一个更大的系统中，而这个系统根本没意识到，我们对孩子最重要的事，其实是建立安全的依恋。
There's so many ways that this can get complicated even in well meaning loving families Because the truth is all of our families are part of a bigger system that's not really supporting the fact that the most important thing we're doing with our children is attaching.
你能说说你是怎么意识到，有这么一种看不见的悲伤，大多数成年女性都在默默承受，而我们大多数人甚至不知道这种情绪还有个名字吗？
So can you take us to kind of how you came to this insight that there's this invisible grief that the vast majority of women are struggling with as adults that most of us didn't realize there's a name for this.
我最初主要接触的是那些正在从某种成瘾行为或物质成瘾中康复的女性。
So I started working with women primarily who were recovering from some process addiction or substance addiction.
我的重点是情感成瘾。
My focus was on love addiction.
每当有客户经历戒断反应时——从情感成瘾中戒断，可能是女性经历过的最痛苦的过程之一。
And so whenever a client would be facing withdrawal, which withdrawal from love addiction is probably one of the more painful processes a woman can go through.
我们明明需要这段关系，却又不得不从中抽身。
We need the relationship, yet we have to detox from it.
这简直是个无解的困境。
It just is an impossible bind.
对吧？
Right?
每次当一位勇敢的女性终于走到这一步，她说：好吧。
So each time a brave woman would get to the point where she's like, okay.
我会停下来，暂时远离恋爱，这种话我听得太多了。
I'm gonna stop this and I'm gonna take some time off from from romance, I would hear it over and over again.
我想妈妈。
I want my mom.
每当这时候，治疗空间里都会出现一种特别柔软、原始却又极其强烈的情绪。
So there was something very tender, very primitive, very powerful happening in the therapy space when this would happen.
在我看来，这看起来像是一种生理反应。
It looked biological to me.
就像一种强烈的渴望。
It looked like a craving.
她几乎喘不过气来。
Like, she could barely breathe.
她感觉自己快死了——这正是戒断时的感觉。
It's like she felt she's dying, which is what withdrawal feels like.
她最想见的人是谁？
And who did she want?
她妈妈。
Her mother.
当我们慢慢梳理这些原因，发现她没能拥有妈妈的理由实在太多了。
And then as we would unpack that and realize the reasons maybe she didn't have her mother, there were so many.
妈妈去世了。
Mother's dead.
妈妈有精神问题。
Mother's mentally ill.
妈妈有药物成瘾。
Mother's an addict.
妈妈从不温柔。
Mother's not kind.
妈妈根本无法给予情感支持，因为她连自己都不了解。
Mother's just unavailable emotionally because she doesn't know herself.
她明明知道不能去找妈妈，可内心却无比渴望。
There would be so many reasons why she knew she couldn't really go to her mom, but she really wanted to.
所以我明白了，关键根本不是想要那个具体的母亲。
So I learned it's not even about wanting that specific mother.
而是需要被当作孩子一样疼爱。
It's needing to be mothered.
明白了。
Okay.
我们先停一下，重点强调这一点。
Let's just stop and highlight that right there.
母亲的伤痛，未必真的跟某个人有关。
The mother wound isn't even necessarily about a person.
没错。
Right.
关键是那种渴望被母亲般呵护的感觉。
It's about the desire to be mothered
对。
Yes.
当你小时候特别小的时候，如果没有得到你所需要的母爱，心里就会留下这样一个伤口。
And the wound that is left inside you when you did not have the experience of being mothered in the way that you needed when you were really, really little.
没错。
Precisely.
这样来看，我们讨论这个问题时，并不是在责怪任何一位母亲。
And in this way, we can talk about this and we're not blaming any mom.
我们要说的是，母亲本该做些什么，因为你作为人，这些事本该促进你大脑的健康发展。
This is about what does a mother do that you needed because you're human and it would have given you better brain development.
对。
Mhmm.
你当时需要的是什么？
What did you need?
其实大多数人说不上来，因为我们根本不清楚母亲具体该做些什么。
And most of us don't know because we don't know what a mother does.
我们对‘母爱’这个概念根本没有清晰的定义，直到——
We don't have a definition of mothering until
现在。
now.
你有没有注意到，这种内心的伤口，还有那种渴望被母亲照顾、被呵护、被理解、被爱、被支持的感觉——当你提到‘母亲’这个词时，这些都会浮现在脑海里？
Did you see this kind of wound and this craving to be mothered, to be nurtured, to be understood by, to be loved, to be supported, all the things that kinda come to mind when you say that word mother.
你有没有在那些来接受治疗、问题并不那么严重的病人身上也看到过这种现象？
Did you see it in patients that were just going to therapy for things that were not that extreme as well?
比如有人只是因为工作中缺乏自信来找你，或者和伴侣关系出了问题，又或者被完美主义困扰。
Like somebody just coming to you because maybe they're struggling with self doubt in their job, or maybe they're going through something, you know, with a partner, or maybe they're struggling with perfectionism.
他们来找你，谈的表面上是这些事。
So they come talk to you about this thing.
是的。
Mhmm.
在这些类型的治疗关系中，你观察到了什么？
What were you seeing in those kinds of patient relationships?
只要我一提起
As soon as I would bring
然后温和地问他们：你觉得小时候有没有可能缺少过一些关爱或肯定？
it up and kind of ask with them, do you think there's a possibility you might have missed out on some affection or affirmation as a child?
或者你小时候有没有感到不安全？
Or do you think did you feel unsafe as a child?
你有没有缺少过保护？
Did you miss some protection?
那谁曾经引导过你？
Or who guided you?
谁又曾经激励过你？
Who inspired you?
我几乎会对每个来接受治疗的人问这三个问题，每次都能立刻得到回应：‘哦，对，我确实没有。’
I would ask these three basic questions to just about everyone coming into therapy and get an instant, oh, yeah.
没有。
No.
我小时候没有这些。
I didn't have that.
然后我们就可以进一步探索。
And then we can explore.
顺便说一句，这个说法是中性的，不分性别。
And incidentally, that was gender neutral.
男性也有这种感受。
Men felt this.
女性也同样有这种感受。
Women felt this.
母亲的缺失会影响所有人，因为我们每个人小时候都曾是需要被照顾的小婴儿。
Mother hunger impacts everyone because we're all little human babies at one point.
如果我们从小没有建立起这样的认知——首先，知道自己是被渴望的，被接纳的，是安全的。
If we didn't have that foundation of knowing, first of all, that we are wanted, that we are accepted, and that we are safe.
这两点是最根本的需求：被爱，和感到安全。
Those are the two most primitive needs that we're loved and safe.
如果小时候缺乏足够的照顾和保护，这种不安就会一直跟着我们，长大后变成一种挥之不去的焦虑，总觉得我不够好。
If we didn't have adequate nurturing around us, protection around us, that's gonna follow us into adulthood as a low grade anxiety and a feeling of I'm not good enough.
你知道吗，你在研究中还提到，母性缺失和饮食问题之间存在某种联系。
You know, one of the things that you also talk about in your research is that there is a connection between mother hunger and having a very difficult or disordered relationship with food.
饮食失调和母性缺失之间到底有什么关联？
What is the connection between eating disorders and mother hunger?
是的。
Yeah.
你可能会注意到，书中我很少用‘饮食失调’这个词，因为我觉得这个临床术语已经催生了一整套治疗方式。
You may notice in the book, I don't really use the word eating disorder because I think that, clinical term has created a whole movement about how we treat eating disorders
明白了。
Okay.
但在我接触的每一位女性身上，几乎都能看到某种形式的饮食困扰。
That I found after working every woman I work with has has some form of food trouble.
我就说到这里吧。
I'll just leave it at that.
这太普遍了。
It's so normal.
我不能把它叫做一种疾病。
I can't call it a disorder.
如果严重到需要住院，那好吧。
Now if it's hospitalization, okay.
我们就叫它疾病吧。
Let's let's call it a disorder.
但事实是，食物是我们除了母亲怀抱之外，对爱的最初体验。
But the truth is food is our first experience of love second to our mother's arms.
所以，我们小时候被抱着、吃饱肚子的时候，会感受到爱。
So we're gonna feel love from being held as infants and having a full belly.
爱就是那种感觉。
That's what love feels like.
举个例子，如果妈妈很少抱我们，或者在她怀里时，我们感觉到她的焦虑，虽然当时我们并不明白，但身体会有反应，变得烦躁不安、浑身难受。
Let's say, for example, mom didn't hold us much or when we were in her arms, we felt her anxiety and we didn't know that, but we do we were restless, we were scurmy.
那真的不是一个让人舒服的状态。
It just wasn't a good place to be.
但当我们喝饱了奶，肚子满满的，那种感觉真的特别好。
But it felt really good when we had a full tummy with milk.
对很多人来说，我们学会依恋的，就是吃饱的满足感，就是食物。
For a lot of us, that's what we learned to attach to was a full tummy, was food.
长大后，我们学会了用食物来安慰自己。
And then we grew up learning to comfort ourselves.
食物特别能带来安慰，它能填补人与人之间缺失的连接。
Food is so comforting and it can fill in that hole where human connection isn't.
但反过来，如果我们饿着肚子，却靠吃东西来填补内心的空洞，抚平受伤的心，结果可能走向两个方向。
The flip side of that though, like if we're if we're hungry and we're feeding ourselves to kinda, fill this void, soothe this broken heart, can go a couple of ways.
我见过有人走向暴食的那一端——就是要让自己麻木。
If, I've seen that go into the overeating spectrum of I need to stay numb.
我不想感受任何情绪，而食物正好能让我做到这一点。
I I can't I don't wanna feel anything, and food fills that.
它让人变得麻木。
It numbs us out.
挺好的。
It's great.
感觉不错。
Feels good.
这感觉像爱，但同时也是一个很强的麻木工具。
Feels like love, but it also is a powerful numbing agent.
那那些节食、不吃东西、严格限制饮食的人，我们该怎么对待呢？
But then what do we do with folks that are depriving, that don't eat, that restrict?
所以我对这些都很感兴趣。
And so I was curious about all this.
到底是什么样的模式在起作用？
Like, what what is the template?
它们之间有什么区别？
What's the difference?
为什么有些人挨饿，有些人却暴饮暴食？
Why are some of us starving and some of us are overeating?
有些人特别讲究。
Some of us are so sophisticated.
我们两种都做。
We do both.
所有这些行为，其实都是我们在调节自己的神经系统。
So all of it is is a way we're regulating our nervous system.
如果我们吃得太多，就是在让自己平静下来。
And if we're overeating, we're down regulating our nervous system.
我们需要让自己放松。
We need to calm down.
我们感到焦虑。
We're anxious.
我们心里害怕。
We're afraid.
如果我们吃得很少，那其实是一种刺激。
If we're undereating, that's a stimulant.
这就像咖啡因一样。
That's like caffeine.
所以有些人少吃，是为了给自己提劲儿做事。
So some of us are under eating to give us fuel to do something.
所有这些行为，都是因为神经系统一直觉得不安全、没根基，而很可能我们的母亲也从来没感到过安全。
All of it is a nervous system reaction to never feeling safe and grounded and chances are our mother didn't feel it either.
很可能她母亲也没感受过。
Chances are her mother didn't either.
我们看到的，其实是几代人的情绪失调，这也不奇怪，毕竟我们的祖先成长在压力、饥荒和战争的年代，他们根本没法放松。
So what we're seeing is generations of emotional dysregulation which makes sense given that our ancestors grew up in times of stress and famine and war and they didn't relax.
他们没钱。
They didn't have money.
他们没有我们现在享有的那些舒适，但我们的身体到现在还在对那些经历做出反应。
They didn't have some of the comforts we have, and our bodies are still reacting to that.
你知道吗，你说的那种母性缺失，在亲密关系里特别明显。
You know, you say that mother hunger is very evident in romantic relationships.
你能举几个具体的例子吗？
So can you give us concrete examples of how it shows up?
我知道很多伴侣在听，他们会对伴侣的某些行为产生共鸣
Because I know that there's going to be a lot of partners listening that will understand something about the person they love or they're in a relationship with
是的
Yeah.
比以往任何时候都更清楚
Better than they ever have
对
Yeah.
因为你接下来要提到的这些表现
Because of the things you're about to list off.
你在关系里看到过哪些迹象，表明一个人正在经历母性缺失？
What do you see in relationships Mhmm.
什么样的行为会让你觉得，这个人正深受母性缺失的困扰？
That go, oh, there's a person who is struggling with mother hunger.
很好。
Good.
这个说法太贴切了。
Love this one.
好的。
Okay.
在一段关系中，你可能会看到这种情况：一方总是说，我感觉像在照顾一个孩子，而不是在和伴侣相处。
So one of the ways you might see it in a relationship is, the partner who comes in saying, I feel like I have a child I'm taking care of rather than a partner.
我为伴侣做了所有事情。
I I feel like I do everything for my partner.
我一直在照顾他、陪伴他，我为伴侣付出的，和为孩子付出的一样多，我都累了。
I'm I'm nurturing, and I'm I'm there, and and I'm I do as much for my partner as I do my children, let's say, and I'm tired.
我想要的，是一个真正的伴侣。
I want a partner.
这是其中一个信号。
That's one sign.
好的。
K.
这是一个信号。
That's one sign.
得到这种照顾的伴侣可能意识不到自己内心有‘母性渴望’，因为他或她正被照顾着。
The partner who's getting all that good treatment may not identify that he or she has mother hunger because he or she's being nurtured and cared for.
但那个一直在付出的伴侣，心里清楚这种关系失衡了。
But the other partner who's doing all the work, they know something's out of balance.
明白了。
Got it.
所以这也是一个信号。
So that's one sign.
另一个信号是，你的伴侣经常来找你，说：‘我总觉得不够。’
The other sign is, let's say your partner's coming to you routinely saying, I'm just not getting enough.
我需要更多的支持、关注和陪伴。
I need more x y and z.
我和你在一起没有安全感。
I I don't feel safe with you.
我觉得我们在情感上或身体上都缺乏足够的亲密感。
I'm not feeling that we're having enough intimacy emotionally or physically.
我想要更多。
I want more.
你却只是说：好吧。
And you're like, okay.
我愿意配合。
I'm in.
你们俩一起努力，认真去满足这些需求，可无论怎么尝试，结果都不够理想。你已经付出了很多，也做出了改变，深入反思过自己，拓展了边界，更用心地陪伴伴侣，还设定了一些界限，比如每天某些时段不碰手机，严格遵守这些规则。
And you all go and you do some work and you really try to meet those needs and everything you're trying is falling short and you've made efforts, you've changed, you've really done some good soul searching and stretched your boundaries and you hold your partner more and you create a safe environment for your relationship which might mean we're not on our phones at certain times a day and we're living with these certain boundaries.
可还是不够。
It's not enough.
你做的一切，都还是不够。
Like, everything you do is not enough.
这可能说明，你伴侣正在经历的这种伤痛和渴望，已经超出了你的能力范围。
That might be a sign that this injury, this that your partner's going through, the craving they're experiencing is beyond you.
这种问题在你出现之前就存在了。
Happen it predates you.
你该做的，是带着爱说：我爱你，但我真的不能再继续了。
And and it's your loving job to say, I love you, but I can't do anymore.
这或许正是你去深入自我成长的好机会。
So this might be your opportunity to go do some deeper work.
假设你和一个人在一起，每次去见他家人的时候，你都会发现他完全变了，变得紧张，或者拼命讨好。
Let's say you're in a relationship with somebody and every time you go visit their family, you see your partner become the daughter, they change before your eyes, they are on edge or, you know, they're bending over backwards.
一切都围着妈妈转。
It's all about mom.
家庭里的互动就是过度补偿，只为让妈妈开心。
The family dynamic is just but just overcompensating to make sure mom's happy.
是的。
Yeah.
在这种环境下，你怎么才能做个更好的伴侣呢？
How do you be a better partner in that environment?
这种方式对一些夫妻确实管用。
That really works for some couples.
对。
Yeah.
如果问题不明显，他们这样过上好几年都没事。
And they can do that for years when it's just not a problem.
一旦问题出现，我建议等假期结束、对方回家休息之后，找个轻松的时机，温柔地提一下：‘你和你妈妈在一起的时候，我感觉你好像不在了。’
When it does become a problem, I like to invite the partner who is not in the immediate family after the holiday's over, time to get home and rest to just kinda gently bring it up when it's not a loaded time to say, you know, when you were with your mom, I missed you.
我完全没感受到你。
I didn't get any of you.
我觉得我根本没过上一个真正的假期，和你一起的假期。
And I feel like I didn't get to have a holiday with you, and I'm sad about that.
你也有这种感觉吗？
Did you feel that too?
最好从心出发，而不是说：我真不敢相信你跟你妈相处的方式，你到底变成什么样了？
It's always best to approach from the heart rather than, I can't believe the way you act with your mom or who did you become?
这种说法根本行不通。
I mean, that's just not gonna work.
真正该做的是带着好奇和关爱去问：那对你来说是什么感觉？
But to really approach from a place of curiosity and love of, like, what was that like for you?
因为你突然就消失了。
Because you just disappeared.
你好像变成了另一个人。
You became another person.
你有没有觉得，这种做法其实挺有意思的？
You know what's interesting about that approach?
如果你一直有母爱缺失，你早就习惯了被批评，对吧？
Is that if you have mother hunger, you're so used to either being criticized typically Yeah.
或者被评判，或者你总是那个拼命做事的人，又或者你忙着时刻监控一切
Or judged or you're, the doer, doer, doer, or you're so busy monitoring
对。
Mhmm.
慢慢地走进内心，有人能温柔地陪伴，有人能让你感到安全、注意到你？
That the slower drop into the heart and have somebody be nurturing, have somebody, like, be safe and notice?
有人能给予你关怀？
Have somebody offer Care.
像这样的爱与引导？
Love and guidance like that?
是的。
Yeah.
这种事其实挺少见的。
It's pretty rare.
你就是会感觉肩膀一下子放松了，这正是我以前没感受到的。
You just do feel your shoulders go, that's what I didn't feel there.
所以我才会有这样的行为。
That's why I act the way that I do.
对。
Right.
没错。
Yeah.
你处于防御状态。
You're in defensive mode.
你进入冻结反应了，这是一种恐惧反应，可能表现为瘫软，整段时间都在玩手机，
You're in a freeze you're you're in a fear response, which could either be a collapse and you're kind of on your phone the whole time and
却不在场。
not present.
我们能拆解一下这三点吗？
Can we unpack those three things?
可以。
Let's do.
如果你能察觉到自己内心的母性渴望。
So if you you can recognize mother hunger in yourself.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我们再假设一次，你正以女儿的身份在听，或者以兄弟、伴侣、父亲的身份在听，关心着你生命中的某个人。
Let's just say, again, you're listening as a daughter or you're listening as the brother or the partner to or the whom or the dad who is worried about someone in your life.
然后你开始意识到：对，就是这个了。
And now you're starting to go, I think this is it.
这真的解释了很多事情。
Like, this is really explaining a lot.
所以你现在是从这个角度在听。
So you're listening from that angle.
想象一下，你回家探望父母，或者父母来你这儿，或者你们一起坐邮轮什么的，随便什么场景。
I want you to imagine you go home to visit or your parents are coming to visit you or you're all on some big cruise or something or whatever.
你就在妈妈身边。
You're around your mom.
你甚至可能正和妈妈通电话。
You might even be on the phone with your mom.
而且
And
情况就变了。
it just shifts.
当女儿进入冻结状态时，你会看到哪些具体行为？
What does the freeze mode look like in terms of the behaviors that you would see in the daughter?
对。
Mhmm.
假设你们一起过了几天假期。
Let's say it's a few days, so it's an extended holiday together.
饮食会开始乱套。
Eating is gonna get out of whack.
最先出问题的就是这个。
That's gonna first go.
与人相处的能力也会慢慢下降。
Relational capacity will be slowing down.
反正我现在什么都做不了，那就干脆什么都不做。
Like, there's nothing I can do right here, so I'm just not gonna do anything.
是的。
Mhmm.
这是一种冻结反应。
That's a freeze response.
明白了。
Gotcha.
战斗或逃跑的表现就是赶紧离开，或者互相争吵。
Fight and flight would be we're out of here or arguments.
有很多家庭就是直接吵起来。
So there are plenty of families where they just have out the argument.
他们就开始对彼此大喊大叫。
They just start yelling at each other.
这是一种方式。
So that's one way.
还有一种是解离，就是我干脆消失。
There's the dissociative, I'm out of here.
我打算睡个午觉。
I'm gonna take a nap.
我要吃很多东西。
I'm gonna eat a lot.
我要喝很多。
I'm gonna drink a lot.
来，吃颗软糖吧。
That's Eat a gummy.
就是这样。
There you go.
所以这是一种反应方式。
So that's that's one reaction.
还有一种是不停地讨好，就是
And then there's the constant fawning, which is
为了让你开心，不让你心情不好，让孩子别惹你，什么都听你的，行吧。
Whatever I need to do in order to keep you happy and have you not be in a bad mood and keep the kids out of your way and do this and, okay.
是的
Yep.
对
Yep.
没错
Yep.
好
Okay.
在我看来，你描述的是每一个家庭、每一个女儿的情况。
You're describing every family and every daughter in my opinion.
你描述的，是每一位母亲当年做女儿时的经历。
And you're describing the experience of every mother when she was a daughter.
我觉得这没法回避，因为科学表明，人生命最初的一千天至关重要，我们天生就容易对母亲产生依恋，而不是父亲，就是母亲，这决定了每个人后来的发展模式。
And I don't think there's any way to get around this because of the science related to the first thousand days of somebody's life and the fact that you are hardwired to be attached to your mother, not your father, your mother, and what that sets everybody up for.
而且没人愿意谈这件事。
And the fact that nobody's talking about it.
而且你知道，我很高兴我们一开始就说清楚了，这并不是在指责母亲们。
And, you know, I love that we started by saying this is not an indictment on moms.
说实话，你妈妈可能根本就是个怪物。
Look, your mom may have meant a freaking monster.
你妈妈也可能是那种你必须从生活中彻底割舍的人，因为她的行为太过伤害你，或者发生的事确实有充分的理由让人选择断绝关系。
Your mom may be somebody that you should cut out of your life because it is too abusive or what happened was just there are very valid reasons that people do that.
但我认为，凯莉，对绝大多数人来说，内心深处都渴望与母亲建立联系。
But I think for the vast majority of people, Kelly, there is a deep desire for connection.
都渴望一种安全感。
There is a deep desire for safety.
都渴望被爱、被支持。
There is a deep desire for love and support.
但在如何谈论这件事时，大多数人却感到巨大的隔阂和内疚。
And there is a major gap and a lot of guilt on how you go about talking about this.
你要意识到，这种感受是真实存在的；要明白，它有坚实的生物学基础和大量研究支持；更要认识到，这种体验极其普遍，而同样普遍的是，没人愿意公开谈论它。
And recognizing that this is a thing that you are experiencing, recognizing that it has a biological and a very profound research back set of proof, recognizing that it is very, very universal that people experience this, and it's also very universal that nobody talks about it.
如果你现在想到某个人，就像凯莉刚才说的那样，不妨把这段对话发给她。
So if you're thinking about someone as Kelly is talking, I want you to send them this conversation.
给她一点空间，好好想想凯莉今天分享的这些内容。
Give them the space to really consider everything that Kelly is teaching us today.
分享的时候别忘了告诉她，我很想和你聊聊。
And make sure to tell them when you share this with them, I'd love to talk to you.
我真的希望你能听听这段内容。
I would love for you to listen to this.
我从中收获太多了。
I got so much out of it.
听完之后，咱们一起聊聊，说说各自有哪些新的感受，因为我真的很想找个人谈谈这个。
And when you're done listening, let's talk about it and share the different things that are coming up because I'd love to have a friend to talk to about this.
别走开。
And do not go anywhere.
后面还有更多内容要深入探讨，比如：既然现在了解了这些，我接下来能做些什么来改善自己的生活，改善和女儿、妈妈，或者和自己的关系呢？
There's so much more we're gonna dig into including, okay, so what are some steps that I can do now that I know about this to make my life better, to make my relationship with my daughters or my mom or myself better?
我们回来后就聊这个，别走开。
And that's what we're gonna talk about when we come back, so stay with me.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
谢谢你今天在这里。
Thank you for being here.
谢谢你认真听。
Thank you for listening.
谢谢你一直陪着我们。
Thank you for staying with us.
我们接着刚才和治疗师凯莉·麦克丹尼尔的对话继续聊。
I wanna pick right back up where we left off with therapist Kelly McDaniel.
凯莉，我想提醒一下那些听节目的人，他们和妈妈的关系其实不错，但自己是个完美主义者，有饮食紊乱，工作也精疲力尽，他们完全可以从这个差距里看到——
So, Kelly, I wanna make sure that somebody who's listening, who does have a good relationship with their mom, but they're a perfectionist and they have disordered eating and they're burnt out at work, can actually look at this gap and say that is
我。
me.
而且
And
我依然爱我的妈妈
I still love my mom
她就是她自己。
and she is who she is.
正如我所说，我们永远不会停止爱自己的妈妈。
Like I said, we never stop loving our mom.
是的。
Yes.
我甚至不会要求她改变。
And I'm not even gonna ask her to change.
不会。
No.
我要为自己疗愈这件事。
I'm gonna look at healing this for myself.
对。
Mhmm.
因为如果我为自己去努力，是的。
Because if I do the work for myself Yes.
我就会改变。
I change.
没错。
That's right.
当我改变了，对。
And when I change Mhmm.
我意识到自己需要被呵护、被保护。
And I see that I need nurturing and safety protection.
没错。
Right.
我坦诚地对自己说，过去没得到这些，原因有很多。
And I am honest with myself that I just didn't get it for lots of reasons.
没错。
Right.
我意识到这一点了。
And I recognize that.
我要接受这个事实，但我会转向自己，寻求滋养、保护、安全和指引。
And I'm and I am going to accept that, but I'm gonna look to myself for the nurturing and for the protection and safety and for the guidance.
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得，这正是这里要传达的邀请。
I think that's the invitation here.
因为当你这么做了，你就成了一个不一样的父母。
Because when you do that, now you're a different parent.
你也成了一个不一样的伴侣。
You're a different partner.
你也会成为一个不一样的女儿。
You're a different daughter.
你也会成为一个不一样的自己。
You're a different you.
没错。
That's right.
我特别喜欢这一点，因为我马上就要跟我的两个女儿分享这段对话。
Well, what I also like about this, because I'm sharing this conversation immediately with my two daughters.
我想知道，我真的想知道。
I am I am I want to know.
是的。
Yeah.
到底哪里出现了不匹配呢？
Like, what actually where was there a mismatch?
当然。
Sure.
但我认为特别有希望的是，只要你能给它一个名字，就能去谈论它。
But I I what I think is very hopeful is that if you have a word for it, you can talk about it.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但不止如此，梅尔。
But but it's more than that, Mel.
说说看。
Tell me.
你不仅给它起了名字，还有一颗开放、愿意、谦逊的心。
Not only do you have a word for it, you have an open, willing, humble heart.
我觉得很多听这个节目的人，可能都没有一位拥有这样心态的母亲。
And I think a lot of people listening to this will not have a mother with an open, willing, humble heart.
所以你可能会听完了觉得，哦，真好。
So I think the risk is you hear this, you think, oh, good.
我有母爱饥渴。
I've got Mother Hunger.
我会去找我妈，一起读这本书，好好聊聊，一切都会好起来的。
I'll go talk to my mom, and and we can read the book together, and we can have the discussion, and it'll all be good.
但我得提醒你，这没那么简单。
And I would really put up a caution with that.
大多数母亲如果没有自己先做功课，是听不进这些话的。
Most mothers, if they're not doing their own work, are not gonna hear this with open arms.
她们不会觉得自己做错了什么，因为我知道，她们做的每一件事，都是尽力而为了。
They're not ready to hear that they did something wrong because everything I'm sure they did, they did their best.
我们以为只要有了这个名字，我妈一定会很高兴和我一起面对，这想法可能太天真了。
And for us to kinda think that, oh, I've got a name now and I bet my mom will be really excited to go through this with me might be unrealistic.
如果我们记得，每个母亲——你、我、Mel——都曾是第一个女儿。
And if we keep in mind that every mother, you, Mel, me, we're first daughters.
我们都曾和自己的母亲生活在一起。
We had to live with our own mothers.
她也得和自己的母亲生活在一起，这是一种代际传承。
She had to live with her mother and this is an intergenerational inheritance.
当你母亲怀上你的时候，她体内那些卵子，现在就在你女儿的身体里。
When your mother got pregnant with you, in her body were the eggs that are now in your daughter's.
等一下。
Wait.
你再说一遍。
Say that again.
没错。
Exactly.
至少三代人的卵子都存在于同一个女性体内，说不定更多，但我有科学依据支持这三代。
Three generations at least, and it's it could be more, but I I have the science on three generations of eggs are all in the same female body.
所以这些特质就这样一代代传下来，这就是为什么我们有时候会表现出和母亲一模一样的行为。
So that's getting carried down the line, which is why sometimes we'll have a movement that's just like our mother.
我们就是她的身体的延续。
We are her body.
这下就说得通了。
That makes so much sense.
在深入之前，我其实想弄清楚一件事。
Before we go deeper, here's what I actually wanna know.
对。
Mhmm.
为什么我们跟妈妈相处时更容易生气？
Why are we more irritated with our moms?
你看，Chris做什么都对，可我却总被说成是那个让人烦的人，这真让我火大。
Like, burns me up that my Chris can do no damn wrong, but I am always the one that drives everybody crazy.
这到底是怎么回事？
What is this?
这是我的问题，还是说大多数人都这样？
Is this is this me, or is this, like, a normal thing
大多数妈妈都会有这种感觉吗？
that most moms feel like?
是的
Yeah.
非常普遍。
Very universal.
因为说到底，没人能真正替代
Because, I mean, the fact is there's no one that can really take the place
妈妈的位置。
of a mom.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
我好像突然明白了。
I think I just got something.
如果你天生就注定要依恋妈妈，因为你是在她体内孕育出来的
If you're actually biologically wired to attach to mom because you were fashioned inside
那么
her body then
你也会被她吸引，对吧。
you are also drawn toward her Mhmm.
当你自然进入那个想要远离父母、独立出来的阶段时，她是你必须真正推开得最远的那个人。
When you go through that phase naturally of starting to push away from your parents and separate, she's the one you have to actually push away more.
没错。
Yes.
天哪。
Woah.
我真想早点跟我的女儿们聊聊这个，因为我真的觉得，当我们用清醒的眼光回顾童年，审视自己和母亲的关系时，正视那种内疚和背叛感，是非常重要的。
I cannot wait to talk to my daughters about that because I I really think it's important that we lean into this sense of guilt and betrayal that we feel when we look with clear eyes at our childhood and the way that we feel about our relationship to our moms.
明白吗？
Okay?
这是第13页。
So this is page 13.
没人能像你妈妈那样爱你
No one loves you like your mother is a section.
对母爱的渴望，可能来自那些本意良好却无法陪伴的母亲，也可能来自那些虽然在身边、想给予爱，但自身心理结构中缺乏依恋能力的母亲。
Mother hunger, yearning for maternal love can come from well meaning mothers who could not be there or from mothers who were there and wanted to love, but did not have the proper infrastructure for attachment programmed into their own psyches.
母性渴望不会因种族或阶级而有所区别，因为婴儿的需求是普遍的。
Mother hunger does not discriminate based on race or class because infant needs are universal.
我们小时候得到的照顾，决定了我们是否觉得自己值得被爱、是否感到安全。
The kind of care we received as infants and toddlers teaches us whether we are worthy, lovable, and safe.
说实话，我发现，有一个冷漠或忽视你的母亲，其伤害程度丝毫不亚于根本没有母亲。
Truly, what I've found is that having an unkind or neglectful mother can be just as damaging as having no mother at all.
我想在这里多停一会儿。
I wanna hover there.
一个对你苛刻的母亲——挑剔你的体重、外貌、你做的事，也不支持你的兴趣爱好——这种伤害，怎么会和没有母亲一样严重呢？
How does having an unkind mother, somebody very critical of you, of your weight, of your looks, of the things that you do, somebody not supportive of the things that you're interested in, how is that as damaging as having no mother at all?
因为这会让人产生羞耻感和被拒绝的感觉。
Because that creates shame and rejection.
如果母亲去世了，当然很痛，但你不会觉得这是针对你的。
If your mother, let's say, is dead, that hurts, but you don't take it personally.
她并没有让你感到羞耻，也没有拒绝你。
She didn't shame you or rejected you.
她去世了，这很痛苦，确实会引发对母爱的渴望。
She died, which is horrible and that does create mother hunger.
但来自苛刻、冷漠母亲的母爱缺失，会带来羞耻和被拒感，这是人生中最糟糕的两种情绪。
But mother hunger that comes from a critical unkind mother creates shame and rejection, two of the worst things we can feel in our lives as humans.
当我们从生命中的第一份爱中感受到这些，就很难从中恢复过来。
And when we feel that from our first love, it is hard to recover from that.
一个冷漠的母亲是什么样子的？
What does an unkind mother look like?
比如，看到你正在发育的身体，却说出极其伤人的话。
A mother who would look at your developing body, let's say, and say something really cruel about your body.
说你太胖了不能穿这件衣服，或者故意挑拨兄弟姐妹之间的关系，来满足自己的需求。
You're too fat to wear that or, a mother who would purposefully pit your siblings against each other, in service to her.
经常不按时来接你回家的母亲。
A mother who routinely wasn't there to pick you up.
你回到家心情不好时，她还会冲你大喊大叫。
And when you got home and you were upset, she would yell at you.
比如你从学校回来，二年级的小女孩，那天在学校过得特别糟。
A mother who when you came home from school, let's say, you're in second grade, you're a little girl, and you've had a rough day at school.
老师批评了你，或者你最好的朋友都换了座位，没叫你，你满心期待地去找妈妈寻求安慰，她却说：‘谁愿意跟你做朋友啊？’
The teacher criticized you or maybe your best friends all sat in a different table and you weren't invited and you go to your mom wanting comfort and she says, well, who would wanna be your friend anyway?
你真是个刻薄的小女孩。
You're such a mean little girl.
我不明白你怎么还能交到朋友。
I don't know how you have friends.
我说的就是这种情形。
That's what I mean.
那种完全无法共情、动不动就批评的母亲。
A mother who literally cannot attune and will be critical.
这种虐待，我接触过的每个成长于这种环境的女儿，最后都会陷入某种成瘾。
That kind of abuse, every daughter that I've worked with that has grown up with that will have an addiction.
为什么呢？
Why?
因为成瘾能让人感受到一种联结。
Because an addiction gives us a sense of connection.
如果你想想早期成瘾的迹象，这些就是表现。
If you think about the signs of early addiction, here are the symptoms.
首先，会有多巴胺的冲击，让你感觉飘飘然。
Well, there's a dopamine hit, so you feel higher.
你会觉得更开心。
You feel happier.
而真正的联结也会带来同样的效果。
Connection does the same thing.
当你和一个喜欢你的人建立联系时，那一刻你会感到轻盈愉悦。
When you connect with someone who likes you, you feel a little bit higher for that moment.
你会从中获得力量。
You get energy from it.
沉迷于某种事物时，你也会从中获得能量。
You get energy from an addictious addiction as well.
而且一开始，这种状态还会让你思路更清晰，直到它变成问题之前都是这样。
And then you get more clarity like an addiction early on before it becomes a problem.
你的思维变得更清楚了。
You're thinking more clearly.
你会觉得，哦，这事我拿得下。
You feel like, oh, I got this.
现在我明白了，目标也有了。
Now I understand and I've got a goal.
当你和一个真正关注你、喜欢你的人建立连接时，情况也是一样。
Same when you're in connection with someone who likes you who's tuning in.
这种连接之后，你不会觉得被掏空。
After that connection, you don't feel depleted.
吃完午饭，你会精神焕发地走出来。
You'll have lunch and you'll come out energized.
你更了解自己了。
You know yourself better.
你知道下一步该往哪儿走了。
You know where you're gonna go next.
这就是连接。
That's connection.
每一种物质在最初使用时，都让人感觉像是一种连接。
Every substance in its original form feels like connection.
它替代了人与人之间的互动，而且确实有效。
It takes the place of a human it works.
它作用在我们大脑里，和好朋友或好伴侣带来的那种多巴胺通路是一样的。
It's working on the same dopogenetic kind of synapses in our brain that a good friend would, that a good partner would.
但后来我们想要更多，不断去索取，而成瘾的本质就是制造渴望——如果我们有母性缺失，这种渴望本来就存在。
But then we want more and we go get more and addiction is meant to cause a craving, and we have the craving anyway if we have mother hunger.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们还会继续去寻求更多。
So we're gonna go get more.
到最后，成瘾就会开始拖垮你。
And eventually, addiction's gonna start kicking our butt.
通常这时候，他们就会来到我的诊室。
And that's usually when they end up in my office.
是的。
And yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我遇到的很多人来信都说，他们和妈妈之间关系紧张，因为总觉得亏欠对方。
What about, a lot of people that I see that write in talk about tension with their mom because there's a lot of loyalty owed.
我为了你放弃了这么多。
I gave up this for you.
所以我期待你成为这样的人。
I expect you to be this.
有一种微妙的观念，觉得你要是跟妈妈不一样，就等于背叛了她。
There's this sort of subtle thing that if you're not exactly like your mom, there's a betrayal.
如果你的兴趣不同、风格不同，甚至性取向不同，背后就藏着一种‘你欠我的’忠诚交换。
If you have different interests, if you have a different style, if you have a different sexual orientation, that there is this tit for tat loyalty thing underneath it.
这也算是一种不友善的表现吗？
Is that also in the lane of unkind?
有可能是。
It can be.
不一定非得这样，但确实有可能。
It doesn't have to be, but it can be.
如果妈妈有本事因为你不像她、不帮她撑场面、不成为她需要的那个女儿来惩罚你，那这种不友善就会出现。
It can go to unkindness if a mother has that capacity to punish you for not being like her, for not building her resume, for not being the daughter she needs to make herself look good.
她可能会惩罚你。
She might punish you.
有些人不会惩罚你，但会把自己变成受害者。
Some others won't become punitive, they become martyrs.
给我举个例子。
Give me an example.
可怜我啊，
Poor me,
我女儿这也不做，那也不做，可她又指望你当个好女儿，让她感觉好受点；不然她就到处跟家里人抱怨你，或者跟自己妈妈说你的不是，甚至跟你朋友背后说你坏话。
my daughter doesn't x, y, or z, and then she needs you as the daughter to make her feel better, or she goes to complain about you to everyone else in the household or to her own mother, or you hear her complain about you with her friends.
对女儿来说，这真是个特别难熬的处境——只要我不是我妈的翻版，她就不开心。
That's a really tough spot, for a daughter to find herself that if I am not my mother's twin, then she's unhappy.
或者只要我不完全按她的意思来，她就不高兴。
Or if I don't do as she pleases exactly, she is not happy.
对。
Right.
我觉得，那些母亲需要一个知心朋友的女儿，
And I think that for daughters who had mothers that needed a best friend.
她们自己不去交朋友，反而把你当成了那个知心人。
And rather than go get her own best friend, she used you.
你成了她的知己。
You became her best friend.
她需要你替她保守秘密。
She needed you to hold her secrets.
她需要你哄她开心，让她感觉良好。
She needed you to fluff up her well-being, make her feel good.
很多有这种母亲的女性，会发展出一种回避的生活态度，因为她们一直被利用。
A lot of times, women with mothers like that develop a certain avoidant approach to life because they've been used.
所以她们不会像那些渴望更多母爱的人那样去主动索取。
So they don't necessarily do some of the things that a more anxiously attached person would do who's hungry for more of mom.
她们已经受够了。
They've had enough.
她们真的被压得有点过头了。
They've maybe had a little much.
她们感到透不过气。
They're a little suffocated.
她们跟妈妈在一起时，偶尔会觉得不舒服，甚至感到羞愧。
They feel a little icky sometimes around their mother and they're ashamed.
她们其实爱妈妈。
They love her.
但不行，现在轮到我过自己的生活了。
But, no, it's my turn now to have a life.
我看到这些女儿们，对母爱的渴望会悄悄袭来。
And I see with these daughters, mother hunger really creeps up on them.
意思是，我其实真的很需要被照顾吗？
Like, you mean I really needed mothering?
我以为我得到的已经太多了。
I thought I had too much.
但太多反而像蒙住了眼睛，让你以为自己真的被呵护着。
But too much is almost like a a blindfold because it looks like you're being nurtured.
而且你们看起来还像最好的朋友。
And it looks like you're best friends.
而且你看，好莱坞就特别喜欢这种设定。
And it looks like you're I mean, look at Hollywood loves this.
比如《吉尔莫女孩》，还有《珍妮与佐治亚》。
We got the Gilmore girls, and we have, Jenny and Georgia.
没错。
Yeah.
于是好莱坞把这种‘最佳闺蜜’的关系浪漫化了，却忽略了真相——女儿被迫早早长大，要么当自己的妈妈，要么当妈妈的妈妈，或者当妈妈的闺蜜，根本没机会做个小孩子。
So we have kind of Hollywood romanticizing this best friend type thing, minimizing that what's happening is the daughter in in having to kinda grow up to either be her own mother or be her mother's mother or be her mother's best friend doesn't get to be a little girl.
所以那些三岁、五岁、七岁、九岁孩子本该有的需求，全都被忽略了。
And so those needs that are developmentally appropriate at three and at five and at seven and at nine aren't getting met.
妈妈不是朋友。
A mom is not our friend.
妈妈就是妈妈。
A mother is our mother.
她是我们的引路人，我们的榜样。
She's our guide, our inspiration.
她是我们的照顾者，也是我们的依靠。
She's our nurturer, and she's our safety net.
如果我们指望朋友这么做，我想我们一个朋友都留不住。
If we expected our friends to do that, I don't think we'd have any friends.
我们可能会选一个温柔的朋友，另一个朋友充满启发，再找一个让我们感到安心的人，但要把这三样全集中在一个人身上？不可能。
We might pick a friend who's nurturing, a friend over here who's inspiring, and a friend over here that we feel really safe with, but that all in one person no.
当妈妈的责任已经够重了。
A mother's job is big enough.
她不需要再当我们的朋友。
She doesn't she's not also our friend.
如果她总想当我们的朋友，那有时候其实是在走捷径。
If she's trying to be our friend, sometimes she's taking a shortcut.
她可能也不知道还能怎么做。
She doesn't know really what else to do.
也许她自己小时候的妈妈太冷漠，于是她就反过来决定，一定要做女儿的一切。
So and she maybe had a mother that was so cold that the flip side of that is I'm just gonna be my daughter's everything.
我明白。
I get it.
但这和当妈妈是两回事。
But it's not the same as mothering.
我觉得对女儿们，我们付出的往往得不到相应的回报。
I think with our daughters, we don't always get back what we're putting in.
我们的情感需求是从闺蜜、心理咨询师或者伴侣那里得到的。
We go get that from our girlfriends, our therapists, our partners.
我们并不会指望女儿们来填补这些情感空缺。
We don't look to our daughters to necessarily put it back in.
这个区别太美了。
That is a beautiful distinction.
我从来没听人这么讲过。
I've never heard anybody explain that.
当妈妈的角色，和你提供的那种关怀、安全感与保护，是完全不同的两回事。
That there's a huge difference between your role as a mother and the nurturing and safety and protection you provide.
你是唯一一个做他们妈妈的人。
You're the only person that's their mom.
没错。
That's it.
我不该期待他们必须把我给他们的全部还回来。
And I shouldn't have the expectation that they have to give me back everything I'm giving to them.
就是这样。
Exactly.
真没想到。
Wow.
也许这其中最重要的一点，就是友谊有多关键。
Maybe the most important piece of this is how critical our friendships are.
我觉得作为女性，我们常常在养育孩子、当妻子、当女儿的时候，把闺蜜的事搁在一边。
And I think as women, too often, we put our girlfriends on the back burner while we raise our kids, while we're wifeing, while we're daughtering.
到头来，我们最需要的还是朋友。
We're gonna need our friends more than anything.
我们并没有被教会如何把朋友放在优先位置。
And we haven't necessarily been given the skill set to prioritize our friends.
这其中一部分源于根深蒂固的性别歧视，以及我们内心对女性的固有偏见。
Part of that is inherited misogyny and our own internalized feelings about women.
我们要花很长时间才能长大，明白这些关系有多珍贵。
It takes us a while to grow up and learn how valuable these relationships are.
如果童年时缺乏母爱，我们往往很难第一时间信任女性。
And if we grow up with mother hunger, we don't always trust women right away.
这需要我们去学习。
We have to learn that.
我们必须先学会信任自己，才能去信任其他女性。
We have to start to trust ourselves so that we can trust other women.
这本身就是成长的一部分。
And that's part of the work.
但是
But
是的。
yeah.
哇。
Wow.
谢谢你这么说，我真的挺感动的。
You know, thank you for saying that.
我觉得现在是个好时机，咱们先停一下。
I feel like this is a good moment to hit pause.
给你点时间，好好消化一下刚才的话。
I wanna give you a chance to just let that sink in.
凯莉，我还有很多问题想问你，但我也想给我们的赞助商一点时间，让他们说几句话。
There's so many more things I wanna ask you, Kelly, but I also wanna give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words.
所以你听的时候，也别忘了分享一下这个节目。
So while you're listening, I encourage you to share this.
我会把这个分享给我的女儿们。
I'm gonna be sharing this with my daughters.
我打算把这个分享给我嫂子。
I'm sharing this with my sister-in-law.
我也会发给几个朋友。
I'm sharing this with a couple friends of mine.
别走开，我们这才刚触及这个话题的表面。
And don't go anywhere because we're just starting to scratch at the surface and consider this topic.
凯莉还有很多内容要深入分享。
And Kelly has so much more to unpack.
我还有好多问题想继续探讨，稍后休息回来我们接着聊。
I have so many more questions I wanna dig into, and we're gonna be waiting for you after this short break.
请继续关注。
So stay with me.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
谢谢你们的到来。
Thank you for being here.
谢谢你们的聆听。
Thank you for listening.
谢谢你们一直陪在我们身边。
Thank you for staying with us.
我想接着刚才和心理咨询师凯莉·麦克丹尼尔的对话继续聊下去。
I wanna pick right back up where we left off with therapist Kelly McDaniel.
凯莉，如果有人听到了，心想：我和我妈妈的关系特别好，那怎么办呢？
So, Kelly, what about somebody who is listening going, well, I have a great relationship with my mom.
对。
Mhmm.
那很好。
And Good.
我的童年过得很幸福。
My childhood was great.
即使你和妈妈关系很好，或者根本记不起什么，还是会感到母爱缺失吗？
Can you still have mother hunger even if you have a great relationship with your mom or you don't remember anything?
或者
Or
嗯，这么说吧。
Well, okay.
我想从更大的背景来问问那些经常这么说的人，因为我经常听到这样的话。
So there's a bigger context I would wanna ask someone who's saying because I hear this a lot.
那会很好。
Oh, it was great.
是挺好的。
It was great.
我童年很幸福，和妈妈的关系也特别好。
I had a great childhood, great relationship with my mom.
可他们还是来我这里，因为成瘾问题，人际关系全都崩了。
And yet they're in my office because of addiction and relationships have all fallen apart.
工作上什么都没起色，可我小时候的生活其实很好。
Work nothing's working, but my life was great growing up.
对我来说，这中间有种脱节。
To me, that's a disconnect.
我可能会轻轻提醒对方：你愿意去探索一下这个吗？
And I might just gently suggest that would I would ask somebody, are you willing to explore that?
因为有些人并不愿意，我不会强求。
Because some are not, and I'm not gonna push that.
母亲的渴望确实存在，但并不是每个人都受影响，就像我说的。
Mother hunger is and it doesn't impact everyone, like I said.
但如果你说童年完美无缺，成年后却样样不顺，这就说不通了。
But if you do say, my childhood was idyllic and yet nothing is working in your adulthood, that's incongruent.
当孩子的大脑承受压力时，会发生什么。
Here's what happens when the little brain gets stressed.
当婴儿期的大脑感到压力，当幼儿期的大脑感到压力，身体还太稚嫩，无法应对皮质醇和去甲肾上腺素。
When your infant brain gets stressed, when your toddler brain gets stressed, the body is not developed enough to handle cortisol and norepinephrine.
这些在我们长大后反而更有用。
Those come in much handier when we're older.
它们会损害大脑的记忆区域。
What they do is they damage the memory center of the brain.
如果一个成年人跟我说：‘我记不起什么了，但我觉得小时候挺好的’，我就知道这孩子当年压力大得不行。
So if an adult is telling me, oh, I don't have any memory, but I think it was all good, I'm thinking this child was completely stressed out.
这个成年人现在明明有很好的应对资源，可这些却渐渐失效了，原因是他童年的压力太大，导致记忆根本没被正常储存进大脑。
This adult now has amazing resources for coping that are starting to not work, but the memories literally are not encoded into the memory center because there was too much toxic anxiety going on in childhood.
这并不意味着身体里没有这段经历。
It doesn't mean the body doesn't have the story.
身体是记得的，只是它在等一个合适的引导、恰当的关怀和安全的环境，才愿意把故事讲出来。
The body will have it, but the body's waiting for the right guide, the right care, the right environment to open up and tell the story.
如果一个人从来没遇到过这样的条件，故事就不会浮现。
So if someone isn't hasn't had that, the story's not gonna come out.
身体知道，时候还没到。
The body knows it's not time.
这不安全。
It's not safe.
我们的身体在保护我们。
Our body's protecting us.
它的唯一功能就是让我们活下来。
That's its only design is to keep us alive.
这就是身体的设计。
That's our body's design.
建立联结。
Attach.
活下去。
Stay alive.
只有当我们感到足够安全时，记忆才会出现。
So we're not gonna have memory until we're safe enough.
这反而是个好消息。
That's the good news.
我们的身体不会一下子把太多信息丢给我们，因为我们还没准备好承受。
Our body's not gonna flood us with information that we're not supported enough to have.
完全失忆的情况常见吗？
How common is it to have No memory?
对。
Yes.
非常非常普遍。
Very extremely common.
作为治疗师，我觉得这明显是在暗示，这个人正在经历母爱缺失，渴望被关爱。
And it sounds like that's a very big signal to you as a therapist that somebody is struggling with mother hunger and yearning for mothering
还有安全感。
and safety.
如果一个人小时候缺乏安全感，这一点就能告诉我。
Somebody was not safe as a child is what that's gonna tell me.
你并不是在说物理上的安全。
And you're not necessarily saying safe physically.
你指的是情感上的安全。
You're saying safe emotionally.
对。
Yeah.
身体其实分不太清这些区别。
The body doesn't really differentiate.
危险就是危险，不管是什么情况，身体都会启动保护机制。
Danger a threat is a threat, and the body is going to send in the protective mechanisms regardless.
我有个问题，因为你这么一说，我几乎每个朋友都说过，小时候的事记不太起来了。
Now I got a question because you sharing that, I've heard almost every one of my friends say, I don't have a lot of memories from childhood.
一想到童年经历，就会觉得自己在背叛父母，心里有愧，我真想好好聊聊那种失落感。
What immediately happens when you start to consider your experience as a child is that you feel like you're betraying your parents, you feel guilty, I would love to just talk about the grief.
说得对，我正想说到这儿。
Good, I was going there.
因为我们刚才稍微提了一下责备的问题。
Because Because we touched on blame for just a moment.
芭芭拉，我们来聊聊责备和悲伤吧。
Barbara, let's touch on blame and grief.
你刚才说得很好，这其实不是关于责备。
You kinda beautifully said, this isn't about blame.
对。
No.
我想停一下，因为责备其实是悲伤的一个阶段。
And I I really wanna pause that because blame is a stage of grief.
这是个必要的阶段。
It's a necessary stage.
我们得先生一会儿气，稍微怪罪一下别人。
We have to kinda get angry for a little while and blame someone for a little while.
明白。
K.
我们一辈子都背着这个，好像自己哪里出了问题似的。
We've been carrying it as if something's wrong with us our whole life.
所以当我们第一次意识到，等等。
So when we first realize, oh, wait.
也许这不只是我一个人的问题。
Maybe it's not just me.
责怪别人会是其中一部分。
Blame will be part of it.
但我们不能一直陷在那里。
We just don't wanna get stuck there.
我会给客户足够的空间，让他们有一段时间去责怪别人。
But I give I give a client a lot of room to have some time to blame.
然后我们再往前走。
And then we move on.
那我们来聊聊悲伤吧。
So let's talk about the grief.
当你真正能从这里面看到自己的影子时。
When you really can see yourself in this.
是的
Yeah.
或者你看到自己的女儿、母亲、姐妹或伴侣身上也有这些表现，这时你就突然明白了为什么会有这么多情绪上的自我监控。
Or you see your daughters in it, or you see your mother in it, you see your sister or your partner in it, suddenly this explains all of the emotional monitoring.
这也能解释为什么总想讨好别人。
It explains the people pleasing.
这还能解释为什么有些人对自己评价这么苛刻，因为他们
It explains the critical nature of how somebody feels about themselves because they
情绪突然爆发。
Mood mood outbursts.
我的意思是，确实说得通。
I mean, it explains yes.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我以前就是这样。
That was me.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
我为此付出了很多努力。
I've worked so hard on this.
我以前就像一座随时要喷发的火山。
Just I used to be like a walking volcano.
这真的太难了。
Oh, it's so hard.
唉。
Ugh.
对。
Yeah.
但一旦你明白了这一点，就开始感受到失落。
But once you see this and you start you you do experience grief.
你会为那些从未得到的东西感到难过。
You experience grief for what you didn't receive.
说得太对了。
That's exactly right.
所以我们根本不知道，也就无从哀悼。
So we didn't know, so we couldn't grieve it.
这才是最难的地方。
That's what's hard.
比如你被确诊癌症，你就知道该哀悼了，会去找支持团体。
Like, if you get a cancer diagnosis, you know it's time to grieve and you go find a support group.
失去父母或孩子的时候，
You lose a parent or a child.
社会都认可这种哀伤，你可以跟朋友说，他们会给你送饭、送咖啡，抱着你，你还能去参加支持小组。
We culturally sanction that grief so you can tell your friends and they're gonna bring you food and they're gonna bring you coffee and they're gonna hold you and you can go to support group.
那母爱缺失该怎么办呢？
What do you do with mother hunger?
我们从来没人讨论过这个。
We haven't talked about it.
这种悲伤无处安放。
There's no place to take the grief.
所以首先，身体会把它冻结起来。
So first of all, the body freezes it.
它真的被锁在身体里了。
It's literally frozen in the body.
这就是为什么女性更容易得自身免疫性疾病，因为如果这份悲伤不被看见，它就会一直等着。
This is why we have lots of autoimmune problems as women because that grief, if it's not acknowledged, just waits.
它就凝固了。
It freezes.
它藏在你的细胞里。
It's in your cells.
它藏在你的骨头里。
It's in your bones.
它藏在你的关节里。
It's in your joints.
但只要有人点破了，你第一反应就会是铺天盖地的悲伤，因为那股情绪开始融化了。
But as soon as someone names it and you're like, oh, well, the first reaction is gonna be this overwhelming sense of sadness because it's gonna start to thaw.
那份悲伤，真的会慢慢化开。
That grief is gonna thaw.
悲伤有自己的节奏，有自己的时间表。
And grief has its own timing, its own rhythm.
根本没有什么标准的阶段。
There are no perfect stages.
悲伤的表现可能是愤怒和暴躁。
The parts of grief can look like rage and anger.
也可能表现为责怪别人。
Parts can look like blame.
当然，更多时候就是深深的难过。
Parts will look like sadness.
还有的时候会麻木，因为人不可能整天都陷在情绪里。
Parts will be numbing out, because we can't feel it all day.
我们得学会抽身出来。
We're gonna have to pull away from it.
这时候，那种道歉的痛感就出现了。
This is where the apology ache comes in.
什么叫道歉的痛感？
What is the apology ache?
在那种不切实际的期待里——希望对方会改变——我从客户身上发现，他们内心深处还渴望着母亲某天能真心说一句：‘对不起，我真的很抱歉。’
So part of the pathological hope, the hoping someone will change, I think also what I found with that my clients taught me is there's this craving for an apology that mom will one day kinda say, I'm so sorry.
不是随便说句‘对不起，原谅我吧’，然后接着老样子。
And not just say, I'm sorry, forgive me, and then keep doing the same thing.
或者是‘对不起，你有这种感觉啊’。
Or I'm sorry you feel that way.
那根本就是心理操控。
Or well, that's gaslighting.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
真正的道歉是：我为我做的事感到抱歉，而且我真会做出改变。
But an apology is, I'm sorry I did that, and I'm actually gonna do something different now.
这种真诚的道歉，其实很少见。
That's pretty rare that we get that kind of apology.
其他那些所谓的道歉，根本算不上道歉。
Any other kind of apology is not really an apology.
我们这些长大的女人，大多都在等着这样一句道歉。
So most of us as grown up women are walking around wanting this apology.
我说它是种痛，因为它像饥饿一样，几乎是生理上的需求。
I call it an ache because it's almost as biological as the hunger.
你只要承认发生过什么，我就能好受了。
Please just recognize what happened and then I'll be okay.
我觉得，当我们还在等一句道歉、等别人理解‘你之所以痛苦，是因为这个’的时候，在还没弄清源头之前，我们就希望伴侣能向我们道歉。
All of us I think when we're waiting for an apology, for a recognition of this is why you're hurting, before we know where that comes from, we want our partners to apologize.
我们希望最好的朋友能向我们道歉。
We want our best friends to apologize.
我们希望孩子能道歉，因为我们的感受受伤了，我们需要有人为此负责。
We want our kids to we need someone to apologize for the fact that our feelings are hurt.
如果道歉永远不会来，我们还能往前走吗？
You know, if the apology is never coming, is it possible to move on?
我觉得我们之所以期待道歉，是因为我们自己并没有真正承认自己的感受有多真实。
Because I think we seek the apology because we ourselves don't actually honor the truth of what our own experience is.
没错。
Exactly.
所以你才希望别人来确认，说‘没关系’。
And so you're looking for the validation from somebody to say, well, it's okay.
我依然爱你。
I still love you.
是的，那件事确实发生了。
And yes, that did happen.
我的意思是，我跟迈克说过好多次了。
I mean, for me, I've said that so many times to Mike.
尤其是对我女儿们说‘我当时情绪失控了’，真的让我感觉轻松多了。
It is liberating to say to my daughters in particular, I was dysregulated.
那时候我经济压力特别大。
I was under so much financial stress.
你还是婴儿的时候，我产后抑郁，没能和你建立起情感连接。
I had postpartum when you were a baby and couldn't attach to you.
是的。
Right.
如果我能改变什么，我一定会改。
If I could change at all, I would.
对。
Right.
这事我得负责。
I'm responsible for that.
你倒是告诉我，该怎么改呢。
Like, tell me how to change.
说出来真的让人轻松多了。
Like, it is liberating
对。
Mhmm.
把这话说出来。
To say that.
对。
Mhmm.
至少对我而言是这样。
At least it has
对我有帮助。
been for me.
对他们来说应该也是吧。
And probably for them as well.
真是份礼物啊。
What a gift.
但我觉得应该去问问他们。
But I think to ask them.
我觉得是这样，但我又不想擅自揣测。
I think it is, but I I don't wanna presume.
你懂的。
You know?
我觉得这一直都在
I think it's been
还在进行中。
Still in process.
但没错。
But Yes.
这永远都会是一个进行中的过程。
It's always gonna be in process.
但这真的可能吗？
But is it really possible?
你说过，你得承认这是真实存在的。
You said you've gotta recognize that this is a thing.
你得尊重这个事实——这是你的经历，说出它并不算不敬。
You've gotta honor the fact that this is your experience, and you're not being disrespectful by saying it.
你只是在对自己说真话。
You're telling the truth to yourself.
我把‘道歉’列为第八步，因为这是我给哀伤某个阶段起的名字。
I named apology eight because it's it is a name that I'm giving one of the stages of grief.
所以它本质上就是一种哀伤，就像责备、愤怒一样。
So it's actually a form of grief just like blame is, just like rage is.
道歉的痛，其实是一种思念。
Apology ache is a form of pining.
当我们失去所爱的东西，就会一直想念它。
When we lose something we love, we pine for it.
这很正常。
That's normal.
道歉蛋也是一种思念的表现。
An apology egg is a form of pining.
这会是我们必经的一个阶段。
It's gonna be a it's gonna be a phase we go through.
我们得走过这一段。
We gotta go through it.
如果我们知道可能等不到一句道歉，就可以直面这种悲伤，给自己一个交代。
And I think if we know that there may not be an apology coming, we can work with that grief and make amends to ourselves.
而我们这么做，没错，就是重新养育自己。
And the way we do that, yes, we remother.
我们必须学会照顾、保护和引导自己。
We we have to nurture, protect, and guide ourselves.
其中一种最基本的方式，就是当我们意识到：我其实希望有人为这件事向我道歉。
One of the basic ways we do that is when we realize, here's what I would like an apology for.
我希望有人为我做一件没什么大不了的事而道歉。
I want an apology for I'm gonna do something fairly benign.
她从没准时来接我放学，每次我都像被遗弃的孩子，一个人在那儿等妈妈来接。
That she was never on time to pick me up from school and always felt like an orphan waiting on my mother to come pick me up from school.
那这就是一种自我弥补的方式。
Well, then here's one way you make amends to yourself.
别因为你重视的事迟到而抛弃自己。
Please don't abandon yourself by being late to things that you value.
准时到场吧，因为你值得。
Show up on time because you're worth it.
你很重要。
You're important.
你想要对方道歉的那些事，往往能告诉你，自己真正需要的是什么。
So whatever you're wanting that apology for sometimes informs what it is you need to give yourself.
哦，这真美。
Oh, that's beautiful.
这真的太美了。
That's really beautiful.
当你意识到这是个问题时，该怎么去处理一段关系呢？
How do you navigate a relationship where you recognize that this is an issue?
嗯，明白了。
K.
你甚至可以留出空间，去理解这根本不是故意的。
You even can hold space for understanding that it's not even intentional.
我觉得社会上有个很大的误区，就是觉得性格有挑战的人都是有意为之。
Because I do think that there's a huge mistake that society makes in thinking that somebody that has a challenging personality is doing it intentionally.
我越来越觉得，其实不是，这全都是下意识的反应。
Like, I've come to believe more that no, it's just all reactive.
他们只是陷在自己的创伤反应循环里。
They're just in their own, like, reactive traumatic cycle.
他们内心渴望母爱，却从未得到，于是只能不断react，react，react。
They've got their own longing for mothering they never got, and they're just reacting, reacting, reacting.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。