世界顶级性治疗师带你探索更美好的性爱、亲密关系与爱情

我想我从这个问题中得到的是，和伴侣谈论性并询问关于性的问题。

And I guess what I'm getting from this question is that simply talking about sex with your partner and asking questions about Yeah.

性让你感到被关心。

Sex makes you feel cared for.

当然。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

我从这个问题背后听到的是一点担忧。

And what I hear behind that question is a little bit of worry.

比如，我是不是做了什么不好的事？

Like, am I doing something that's not good?

我还能做些什么更好的吗？

Can I be doing something that's better?

你知道，我，我，我看到，我已经在感受到了。

You know, I I I it I see, I'm already getting.

我太尴尬了。

I'm so embarrassed.

我不

I don't

知道为什么。

know why.

这是一种很脆弱的行为，

It's a vulnerable thing that

你正在做。

you're doing.

我会对我丈夫说，一旦我们身体接触，感觉就非常好。

Well, what I would say to my husband is that once we are physical, it's fantastic.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但对我来说，在我们发生关系或认为什么时候该发生关系这件事上，存在一些脱节，因为我感觉我们总是在等一天结束。

But for me, there is some disconnect around when we're having sex or when we think are the times to have sex because I think we're waiting until the end of the day.

就是这样

That's

我们俩都精疲力尽了。

exactly we're both exhausted.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我很欣慰的是，他愿意这么说，那就是情感亲密和身体亲密。

And so one thing I'm relieved about since he's kind enough to be saying, there's emotional intimacy and physical intimacy.

对我来说，身体亲密完全被冻结了。

And to me, the physical intimacy is on lock.

我的意思是，我很想稍微尝试一些新花样来增添情趣，因为我觉得他会喜欢，但我觉得我们连基本的都还没做好，嗯。

I mean, I'd love to experiment a little bit just to spice things up because I think he would enjoy it, but I think we're struggling with just the basics Mhmm.

在如此忙碌的生活中，我们该如何增加性生活的频率。

Of how do we have more sexual experiences in the middle of a crazy busy life.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们该如何停止因为说‘我们很想做这件事’而彼此失望呢？

And how do we stop disappointing one another by saying we would love to do this?

比如，就在上周，我们可能还谈了两三次想发生性关系的事。

Like, just last week, we probably talked about wanting to have sex two or three times.

他得了严重的鼻窦炎。

He has a freaking sinus infection.

我不想生病。

I don't wanna get sick.

他连呼吸都困难。

Like, he can barely breathe.

所以如果他问我需要什么，我其实也不知道，因为我觉得当我们真的连接在一起时——我想很多人都有这种感觉。

So if he's asking me what I need, I don't even know because I feel like when we do connect and I I think a lot of us feel this way.

当这种事情终于发生时，你会感到开心。

When it finally happens, you're happy.

那么，作为一名持证性治疗师，你的建议是什么？你从这个问题中听到了什么？

So what would your advice, though, as a licensed sex therapist be, and what do you hear in that question

嗯。

Mhmm.

当有人问你，你需要更多的情感亲密还是身体亲密时？

When somebody's saying, do you need more emotional intimacy or physical intimacy?

那我们来

So let's go

先谈实际的做法。

to the tactical thing first.

我听到你描述的是我看到大多数伴侣都会犯的一个典型错误，那就是把性生活留到晚上最后。

What I hear you describing is another classic mistake that I see most couples making, which is that we leave sex to the very end of the night.

我们脑子里总想着，哦，刷完牙了，都收拾干净了，钻进被窝了。

We just have that idea in our heads like, oh, we're all teeth brushed, all cleaned up, crawling into bed.

那就是做爱的时间。

That's the time for sex.

那是做爱最糟糕的时间。

That is the worst time for sex.

当你爬进被窝时，你已经精疲力尽了。

By the time you're crawling into bed, you are exhausted.

你在想明天的事。

You're thinking about the next day.

你在回想刚刚经历的疯狂一天。

You're thinking about the crazy day you just had.

你脑子里正在算账：好吧。

You're doing that mental math in your head of, okay.

如果我五分钟内睡着，就能睡这么多小时。

If I fall asleep in the next five minutes, then I can get this many hours of sleep.

这时候最不可能对性产生兴趣。

That is the worst time to get excited about sex.

所以我总是鼓励夫妻尽量在晚上早点做爱。

So I always encourage couples try to have sex as early in the evening as you can.

当然，每个人的作息都不同。

Obviously, everybody has different schedules.

我们各自都有不同的事情要处理，但尽量尽早安排这件事。

We have different things going on, but try to prioritize it as early as you possibly can.

所以，也许我们可以定个规矩：不看电视，先做爱；或者干脆先做爱，然后再吃晚饭。

So if it's we're not gonna watch TV until we've had sex first, maybe it's even we're gonna have sex, and then we're gonna have dinner.

或者先吃晚饭，再做爱，之后再回来收拾一切。

Or we're gonna have dinner, have sex, then we'll come back and clean everything up.

但要尽早做，这样你才有精力与对方建立亲密关系。

But do it earlier so you actually have the energy to have that intimacy with each other.

听你这么说很有趣，因为我自己也有一点本能的反应，天啊，难道这意思是要我们计划性地做爱吗？

Hearing from you, which is interesting because I feel myself also having a little bit of a visceral, like, oh god, is this idea of you gotta plan it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

没错。

You're like, yeah.

真的啊，梅尔。

No kidding, Mel.

你必须提前计划。

You have to plan it.

因为我觉得我信奉一种错觉，认为这种事情应该自然而然发生。

Like, because I think I believe in the myth that it's just supposed to happen

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这显然行不通。

Which is clearly not working.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这在一段关系刚开始时就会发生，那时一切都很新鲜。

And that's what happens in the beginning of a relationship when you first, it's brand new.

那时候，去杂货店购物都可能是世界上最浪漫的约会，你们甚至会在车后座、停车场里做爱。

You will literally going to the grocery store is the hottest date on the planet, and then you're having sex in the backseat of the car, in the, parking lot.

那些日子已经一去不复返了。

Like, those days are over.

所以你是在质疑这一点。

So you're challenge you on that, though.

好吧。

Okay.

如果你真的回想一下，在一段关系的初期，我就拿我和赞德来说吧。

If you really think back on it, in the early days of a relationship so I'll I'll talk about me and Xander.

当我们刚开始有性生活时，我们就开始互相安排约会，甚至安排性生活。

When we started having sex and then we're planning dates with each other, we're scheduling sex.

因为你们在安排约会？

Because you're planning dates?

我们在安排约会。

We're planning dates.

我会知道他周五会约我，嘿。

I would know he'd ask me out on Friday, hey.

你周五想出来玩吗？

You wanna go hang out on Friday?

我们会去吃晚饭。

We'll go to dinner.

回我家吧。

Come back to my place.

我们做爱。

We're having sex.

这就是安排性生活。

That's scheduling sex.

并不是说我们以前从不安排性生活，现在变老了、无聊了才不得不这么做。

It's not that we've never had to schedule sex before and now we're old and boring and we have to do it.

我们整个关系期间一直在安排性生活。

We've been scheduling sex our entire relationship.

我们只是换了一种看待它的方式。

We just looked at it differently.

我以前从来没听过这种说法。

I've never heard that before.

嗯。

Mhmm.

瓦内萨，我需要短暂休息一下，插播一段赞助商广告，但我们还有很多内容要继续讨论。

Vanessa, I need to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors, but we've got so much more to jump into.

在您收听赞助商广告的同时，请分享本节目，因为所有你关心的人都值得拥有更好的性生活。

And while you're listening to a word from our sponsors, share this because everybody that you care about deserves to have a better sex life.

毫无疑问，我们从瓦内萨那里学到的一切都将帮助我们实现这一点。

And there's no doubt that everything that we're learning from Vanessa is gonna help us do that.

请不要走开，短暂休息后我会马上回来等你。

And don't go anywhere because I'm gonna be waiting for you after a very short break.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。

It's your buddy Mel Robbins.

我非常高兴你在这里。

I am so thrilled that you're here.

今天，你和我将一起度过时光，向持证性治疗师瓦妮莎·马林学习。

Today, you and I are getting to spend time together and learn from licensed sex therapist Vanessa Marin.

我们一直在探讨你为了拥有更愉悦、更有趣、更有力量的性生活所需要了解的内容。

And we've been digging into the things that you need to know in order to have a more pleasurable and fun and empowering sex life.

所以，瓦妮莎，在我回答克里斯的第二个问题之前，还有一个问题：如果你的伴侣告诉你，我需要更多情感上的亲密，

So, Vanessa, one other question before I get to Chris's second question is if you have a partner who tells you, I need more emotional intimacy

嗯。

Mhmm.

那意味着什么？

What does that mean?

这是个非常好的问题，每个人都需要为自己思考这个问题。

That's such a great question, and it's something that every person has to think about for themselves.

我们很多人会把这些话随意抛给伴侣。

A lot of us will throw these phrases out to our partner.

我想要更多情感上的亲密。

I want more emotional intimacy.

但这到底意味着什么？

But what does that mean?

对你来说感觉情感亲密的事，对我可能就觉得，我不喜欢那样。

The things that could feel emotionally intimate to you, to me, could feel like, I don't like that.

那对我来说并不合适。

That that doesn't really work for me.

所以我们都需要花时间去思考，那到底是什么？

So we all have to take that time to think about what is it?

具体是哪些事情？

What are the specific things?

我很务实，所以我喜欢思考我的伴侣每天可以做些什么。

And I'm really practical, so I like to think about what are the things that my partner could do on a daily basis.

当然，如果我的伴侣想带我去度两周的浪漫假期，是的，我会感到非常亲密。

Obviously, if my partner wants to sweep me off on a two week romantic vacation, yes, I'm gonna feel very connected.

但比如，他在周二晚上8:30能做些什么，让我感觉和他亲近了10%？

But, like, what could he do on a Tuesday at 08:30PM to help me feel 10% closer to him?

那么，那些细微的小事是什么？

So what are those little things?

我也从克里斯那里听到类似的问题，你知道吗，你希望从我这里得到更多情感上的亲密吗？

And that's what I hear from Chris too is wondering, you know, do you want more emotional intimacy from me?

你觉得自己和我足够亲近了吗？

Do you feel close enough to me?

这里面还有一个问题，对你来说什么更重要？

And there's also a question in there of what comes first for you?

人们通常可以大致分为两类。

People tend to be divided into roughly two camps.

有些人希望在感受到情感亲密之后，才愿意建立身体上的亲密，而还有

There are some people who want emotional intimacy before they feel open to physical intimacy, and there are

一些人则希望通过身体上的亲密来促进更深层次的情感连接。

some people who want physical intimacy as a way to help open up more emotional intimacy.

你知道吗，你刚刚改变了我的婚姻，因为当你说到刚开始约会时，什么是约会？

You know, I think you just changed my marriage because when you said, when you were first dating, what is a date?

那就是安排性行为的一种方式。

It's a way to schedule sex.

就像，那

Like, that

就是安排那些约会。

was like scheduling those dates.

但这甚至不是关于约会本身。

And it's not even about the dates.

而是关于创造一些有时间、有空间让亲密感发生并提前规划的时刻。

It's about creating moments where we have the time and space for intimacy to happen and to plan for it.

就像你之前说的，晚上我得在中午之前就做这件事。

Like, I like you said earlier in the evening, I'm like, I need to be doing it before noon.

我的意思是，如果这事要发生的话，是的。

Like, I I mean, if it's gonna happen Yeah.

安排在上午晚些时候可能是最佳时机。

Scheduling it late morning is probably the sweet spot.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有个有趣的地方，想想你和克里斯约会的早期阶段。

And the interesting thing too, like, so think back to those early stages of dating Chris.

如果他打电话给你，说：嘿，周六想和我约会吗？

If he called you and said, hey, do you wanna go on a date with me on Saturday?

你不会想，这人还得给我们安排时间。

You're not thinking, this guy, we have to schedule it.

哇。

Wow.

如果得靠安排才能约会，那浪漫真的已经消失殆尽了。

The romance must really be dead if we're having to no.

你还是很兴奋的。

You're excited.

没错。

Like True.

哇。

Wow.

他想和我共度时光。

He wants to spend time with me.

他愿意从繁忙的日程中腾出时间来陪我。

He's willing to carve time out of his busy life to make time to be with me.

我们当时是以如此积极的方式看待这件事的。

Like we looked at it in such a positive way.

人们一听到安排性生活这件事就特别紧张。

And people get so freaked out by the scheduling sex thing.

我其实建议把‘安排性生活’这个说法抛在脑后，因为它太容易让人紧张了。

I actually say like leave the scheduling sex, that phrase behind because it freaks people out too much.

那我们说

What do we Let's say

就把它看作是为性生活做计划。

just think about it as planning for sex.

我喜欢说这是有意识的亲密。

I I like to say intentional intimacy.

或者，如果你喜欢约会夜的那种感觉，干脆就叫它约会夜吧。

Or even just call it a date night if you want to, if you like those those feelings of date night.

但没错，我们可以把它看作是一件积极的事。

But, yeah, we can think of it as a positive thing.

我的伴侣在乎我。

My partner cares about me.

他们想和我共度时光。

They wanna spend time with me.

他们有一大堆事情要忙，但他们告诉我：你很重要。

They've got a million things going on, but they're telling me you're important.

我想确保你和我有属于我们的时光。

I wanna make sure you and I have that time together.

更重要的是，

Well, more importantly,

这一切就是这样开始的。

this is how it all started.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

这就是你之所以发生性关系的原因。

And this is why you were having sex.

那么，我为什么要像个傻瓜一样，不重复我们刚约会时的做法呢？

So why on earth would I be a dummy and not do the same thing I did when we first started dating?

好吧。

Alright.

我们来看下一个。

Let's look at the next one.

所以我的第二个问题是，晚上我该怎样做得更好或不同，来帮助你放下工作的思绪。

So my second question is about just what I can do better or differently at the end of the day to help you turn off your working mind.

我知道有时候是吃晚饭或者一起放松看东西，但你的思绪往往无法完全放松，即使进了卧室、上了床，哪怕没有手机也一样。

I know sometimes it's dinner or hanging out and watching something, but your mind often doesn't turn off all the way into the bedroom and into the bed with or without the phone.

所以，我能不能做点什么来帮你减轻一些压力，或者缓解你脑海中盘旋的思绪，从而转变一下氛围？

And so is there anything that I can do to help alleviate some of that stress or, whatever might be running through your mind in order to shift the mood?

哦，我喜欢这个问题，因为我知道具体该怎么做。

Oh, I love this question because I know exactly

嗯。

Mhmm.

我能想到的办法，听起来可能会有点奇怪。

What could be done, and it's gonna sound weird.

但我真的很怀念我们以前经常一起做饭的日子，因为我们现在是空巢老人了。

But one of the things that I really miss is that we don't often cook dinner together anymore because we're empty nesters

嗯。

Mhmm.

现在只有我们两个人，而且我们都在家上班。

And there's only two of us, and we both work from home.

所以，坐在办公桌前用笔记本电脑工作，结束最后一场视频会议后，关上电脑，发几封邮件，然后悠闲地走进厨房，这实在太容易了。

And so it is so easy to sit at your desk on your laptop and close the laptop at 06:30 after the last video call and then send a few emails and then stroll, you know, into the kitchen.

然后你会想，我们有什么吃的？

And you're like, what do we have?

麦片？

Cereal?

又是麦片？

Again?

我们又要烤个披萨吗？

We're gonna put a pizza in the oven again?

因此，在工作和重建日常仪式之间，存在一种缓冲，而对我们来说，这些仪式原本是由孩子在家、他们饿了、我们有固定一起做饭和吃饭的家庭模式所驱动的，但孩子离开后，这一切都消失了。

And so there is some buffering between work and the reestablishing of rituals that for us were very much driven by the fact that kids were home and they were hungry and we had a pattern of sitting down and cooking and then eating as a family that has just evaporated without the kids being there.

所以对我来说，我知道如果我走进厨房时克里斯已经在做饭，我就不会玩手机了。

And so for me, I know that I could use a lot of help with if I walked into the kitchen and Chris was already cooking, I wouldn't be on my phone.

但因为我们没有提前计划任何事情，工作实际上完全占据了空间，我们俩都对此负有责任。

But since we haven't planned anything, work literally takes over the space, and we're both guilty of it.

所以我能理解，这其实打开了很多我们可以做的事情。

And so I could see how even and I mean, this is just opening up so many things we could do.

我们可以重新开始做以前孩子们在家时经常做的事。

We could start doing the things we used to do when the kids were home.

我们可以在周日晚上聚一聚，决定哪些晚上要一起做饭，由谁主厨，这样我们都能达成一致。

We could meet on Sunday nights and go, these are the nights we're gonna cook, and who's gonna take responsibility for being the lead on that night so that we both come down to something.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得这是个非常好的问题。

I think it's an excellent question.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为这又回到了你提到的——有意识的亲密关系，甚至决定今晚一起做饭，这本身就是一种有意识的行为。

Because it goes back to what you're talking about, which is intentional intimacy and even the act of deciding that we're cooking dinner tonight together, that's intentional.

嗯。

Yeah.

你所说的，其实回到了我在本次访谈一开始提到的内容。

What you're saying it goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning of this interview.

修复我们关系中的亲密感，所需要做的事情其实很简单，而我们很多人都已经知道这些方法了。

The things that we need to fix intimacy in our relationship are so simple, and a lot of us know what they are already.

只是我们没有去实践而已。

We're just not doing them.

你知道，当你做这些事情时，你会感到和他非常亲近，而做到这些并不难。

You know that you feel really connected to him when you do those things, and it's not that difficult to do it.

没错。

No.

只是我们需要让自己重新开始去做这些事。

It's just getting ourselves to do them again.

这就像

Well, it's like

我在本播客中所谈论的一切，即我们都知道这一点。

everything I talk about on this podcast, which is we all know this.

是的。

Yeah.

但你需要被提醒，我们需要这些提醒。

But you have to be reminded We need those reminders.

否则，科技、工作以及所有那些你临终时不会在意的事情，会偷走你当下与所爱之人共处的时光，是的。

Otherwise, technology and work and all these things that you're not gonna be thinking about at the end of your life are gonna steal the time that you have now Yeah.

与你关心的人在一起。

With the people that you care about.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为烹饪也是一个很好的例子，因为它能创造我所说的过渡仪式。

And I think that the cooking is such a great example too because it can create what I like to call a transition ritual.

我们很多人试图从一天的混乱直接进入：好吧。

So many of us try to go from the chaos of the day straight into, okay.

现在我回家了，我们应该彼此充满魅力和亲密。

Now I'm home, and we're supposed to be super sexy and intimate with each other.

这种过渡太生硬了。

That is too rough of a transition to make.

我们需要一点仪式感来帮助我们平稳落地，让自己意识到：好吧，我在这里了。

We need a little bit of a ritual to help us land, like, ground ourselves and know, okay, I'm here.

我处于一种不同的状态。

I'm in a different state.

我现在在做不同的事情。

I'm doing a different thing now.

那么，有没有什么小活动呢？

So is there some little activity?

而且，again，一切都要务实。

And, again, all about being practical.

你能做些什么，简单地花上几分钟，帮助你们两个人重新连接呢？

What is something that you could do, you know, super simply in just a couple of minutes to help the two of you reconnect?

嘿。

Hey.

我们此刻在一起。

We're here with each other.

现在是我们的时间。

It's our time now.

好的。

Alright.

让我们来回答克里斯托弗·罗宾斯先生的最后一个问题。

Let's take the final question from mister Christopher Robbins.

他竟然会问这个问题，真的。

The fact that he's even asking Yeah.

这让我想和他做爱。

Makes me, like, wanna have sex with him.

好了，亲爱的。

Okay, honey.

我们开始吧。

Here we go.

现在提出最后一个问题。

Here goes the final question.

有什么是你还没说过的，或者害怕告诉我的吗？

Is there anything that you haven't said or that you're afraid to tell me?

谢谢你让我参与进来。

Thanks for including me.

哦，我还没告诉过他什么。

Oh, anything I haven't told him.

有。

Yes.

但我已经告诉他了。

But I have told him this.

但也许你可以给我们一些建议，我可以替那些有同样感受的听众问这个问题。

But maybe you can give us advice, and I can ask this on behalf of the person who's listening who feels the same way.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得工作是我生活中非常重要的一部分，我必须在工作中融入社会。

I feel like work is a huge part of my life, and I have to be out in the world at work.

走，走，走，走，走，走。

Go, go, go, go, go, go.

我是家庭的主要经济支柱。

I am the primary breadwinner.

我充满攻击性、自信且精力充沛，负责带领团队中的许多人。

I am aggressive and confident and energetic, and I am responsible for a large number of people on this team.

我把大量精力投入到关心我的同事、关心听节目的人、关心我们的孩子上，因此我不希望成为主导我们性生活的那个人。

And I put a ton of energy into caring for the people that I work with, caring for the people that listen to the show, caring for our children, that I don't wanna be the point person on our sex life.

我真的希望感受到被渴望，希望这是我的生活中一个不需要我来主导的领域。

Like, I really want to feel desired and to feel like this is one area of my life where I don't have to be the one who's in charge.

我相信这是一些人常说的话，但并不是指我期待童话般的浪漫，而是我不希望扮演那种主动追求所求之物的传统男性角色。

And I am sure that is a very common thing that people say that I and and not like in a fairytale way that I'm expecting to be romanced, but I don't want to be the one with the traditional masculine energy that is seeking out the thing that I want.

我不是说我不是平等的伴侣，而是我不希望主动发起这件事的责任总落在我身上。

Not to say I'm not a equal partner, but that I don't want it to be on me to have to initiate this too.

有意思。

Interesting.

所以我完全能理解你说的话，我觉得很多人都有同样的感受。

So I I can totally relate to what you're saying, and I think a lot of people feel that exact same way.

我只是想被照顾。

Like, I just wanna be taken care of.

我不想为此费心或付出努力。

I don't wanna have to think about it and to make that effort.

我生活中的一切，我想当你现在听我说话时，你可能也有这种感觉。

Everything in my life and I think there you know, as you're listening to me right now, you may feel this too.

你要负责照顾你的父母。

You're responsible for caring for your parents.

你要负责照顾孩子。

You're responsible for taking care of the kids.

你感到巨大的压力，要支付账单。

You feel tremendous pressure to get your bills paid.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你是那个洗碗的人。

You're the one that is doing the dishes.

这并不是说你的伴侣或你约会的人什么都没做。

You're the and that's not to say that your partner or the person that you're dating isn't doing anything.

嗯。

Mhmm.

用非常过时的说法来说，承担任务管理者角色带有很强的男性气质。

It's that there is to put it in very outdated terms, there's very masculine energy around being the taskmaster

嗯。

Mhmm.

而赚钱者和照顾者，同时存在着更多非男性化或女性化的柔和能量。

And the moneymaker and the caretaker, and there's more unmasculine or feminine softer energy

嗯。

Mhmm.

我希望在亲密时刻能够感受到这种状态。

That I would love to access in moments of intimacy.

能详细说说吗？

Tell me more about that.

当你在性方面更展现女性特质时，那会是什么样子？

What would that look like for you to be able to be more in your feminine when it comes to sex?

是克里斯主动发起。

That Chris is initiating.

是这个吗？

Is that

只是主动发起吗？

is Is it just the initiating?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是。

Think so.

我觉得简直就是我总在说，我们今天该做爱了。

I think it's literally like I feel like I'm the one that's always like, we should have sex today.

嗯。

Like Mhmm.

我们有一阵子没做爱了。

We haven't had sex for a while.

好像一直都是我在主动。

Like, I'm kind of the one doing that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我能觉得，这是我生活中有一个更主动、而不是只做回应的人，那对我来说会帮助很大，用你的话来说。

And I I think it would help a lot for me if I felt like this was an area of my life that I had somebody more spontaneous rather than responsive, to put it in your language.

所以，如果你要猜一猜，你觉得是什么让克里斯不敢主动呢？

So what do you think if you just have to guess, what do you think might hold Chris back from initiating?

我觉得克里斯的生活非常充实，而且他还经营着一个男性静修营，要照顾很多人。

I think Chris has a very full life, and he also, has a job as a founder of a men's retreat where he's taking care of lots of people.

他是一名临终关怀师。

He's a death doula.

我的意思是，就在这个周末，他还在主持一个全息呼吸法的工作坊。

I mean, just this weekend, he was leading a workshop, on holotropic breath work.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他是个了不起的人，同时也是一位照顾者。

Like, he he's a phenomenal human being who is also a caretaker.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我想象他和我有同样的感受，那就是我正在尽力提供支持。

And so I would imagine that he feels the exact same way that I feel, which is I'm doing my best to provide.

我正在尽力照顾所有我需要照顾的人。

I'm doing my best to take care of everybody that I'm taking care of.

我正在尽力维持家庭的运转，确保狗狗们有饭吃。

I'm doing my best to hold the household together and to make sure the dogs are fed.

你能帮帮我，照顾一下我的需求吗？

Could you just, like, help me and take care of my needs?

所以我觉得我们都身处这种境地。

And so I think we're in this.

双方都有同样的体验，都希望对方能主动承担。

Both having the same experience kind of wanting the other person to take the lead.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得大多数人可能都有这种感受。

And I feel like most people probably feel this way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们甚至从未想过，我们的伴侣也觉得自己的需求没有得到满足。

And we don't even stop to think that our partners also don't feel like their needs are getting met.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这很常见吗？

Is this very common?

这非常常见。

It's very common.

而且，说实话吧。

And, of course, like, let's let's be honest.

当我们的伴侣主动承担时，当他们承担责任时，感觉很好。

When our partner takes the lead, when they take that ownership, like, it feels good.

感觉更容易，因为主动发起太容易让人感到脆弱了。

It feels easier because initiating is so vulnerable.

这需要极大的脆弱感，而且不管

It takes so much vulnerable, and it doesn't matter how

即使你和一个人在一起很久了，我并不觉得在这方面会感到脆弱。

long I you've don't mean, like, especially if you've been with somebody for a long time, I don't, like, I personally don't feel vulnerable about it.

我只觉得累。

I feel tired.

有意思。

Interesting.

对我来说，最主要是感到疲惫，嗯。

Tired is the biggest thing for me Mhmm.

只是要腾出心理空间。

Of just working up the mental space.

我得停止思考我正在想的事情。

I gotta stop thinking about what I'm thinking about.

还有另一点，我知道这也是你经常提到的，我觉得问题在于，任何亲密行为都会让人觉得，好吧。

The and the other thing for me, and I and I know this is something that you talk about, is I think there's a problem in that any intimacy feels like, okay.

现在我们得发生性关系了。

Now we gotta have intercourse.

性行为本身并不是坏事，但你会想，好吧。

Not that intercourse is a bad thing, but you're like, okay.

我甚至都不想碰他，因为如果我抚摸他的大腿时他有了反应，而我们正在看奈飞。

I don't even wanna touch the guy because if he gets an erection because I'm stroking his thighs, we're watching Netflix.

现在我得做点什么。

Now I gotta do something.

没错。

Exactly.

好吧。

Okay.

对很多人来说，对你来说这并不显得脆弱，这很好。

So for a lot of people, it's great that it's not doesn't feel vulnerable for you.

对很多人来说，这确实感觉非常脆弱。

For a lot of people, it does feel really vulnerable.

因此，我强烈认为，关系中的双方都应该共同承担主动开启亲密的脆弱性。

And so I feel really strongly that both partners in a relationship should share that vulnerability of initiating.

我们都希望被需要。

We all wanna feel wanted.

我们都希望自己的伴侣在想着我。

We all wanna feel like my partner's thinking of me.

他们想和我建立联系。

They wanna connect with me.

所以如果有两个人，听起来你们俩都比较主动，我认为你们可以有意识地培养亲密感，坐在一起想想：好吧，我们来看看下周的日程安排。

So if you have two people, like, it sounds like the two of you might be who are responsive, I think having that intentional intimacy and sitting together and thinking, okay, let's look at our schedule for the next week.

哪些日子看起来最合适？

What looks what days look best?

哪些时间有空？

What looks open?

一天中什么时间段对我们来说最合适？

What is the time of day that's gonna work best for us?

所以听起来，对于你们来说，早上比一天结束时要好得多。

So it sounds like for you guys earlier in the day is gonna be way better than than at the end of the day.

如果你们能挑出一些时间共处，就会感觉你们俩都在共同付出。

So if you guys can pick out those moments to be with each other, then it feels like you're both contributing.

这不是一个人在主导，一个人独自承担所有压力。

It's not one person taking the lead, one person holding everything on their shoulders.

如果你想想生活中其他方面，比如育儿。

If you think about other aspects of your life, like, let's imagine parenting.

我知道你们的孩子已经长大了，但也许我们可以想想他们小时候的情况。

I know your kids are grown, but maybe let's think about when they were younger.

想象一下，克里斯走过来对你说：‘好了，梅尔，我想让你主导育儿这件事。’

Imagine Chris coming up to you and saying, okay, Mel, I want you to take the lead with the parenting.

你就只是负责当父母。

So you're just gonna be the parent.

所有需要做的育儿事务都由你来主动发起。

You're gonna initiate whatever parenting stuff needs to be done.

如果你需要我的帮助，你可以问我。

If you want my help, you can ask me.

我可能会答应，也可能不答应，但总之，你是负责育儿的那个人。

Maybe I'll say yes, maybe no, but, like, you're the parenting person.

这简直太荒谬了。

That would be crazy.

对吧？

Right?

但我们很多人对性也是这样做的。

But we so many of us do that with sex.

我们希望伴侣为我们做所有事情。

We want our partner just to do everything for us.

嗯，我

Well, I

我现在真的被点到了，因为记得当我开始经常出差工作时，我和克里斯有过一次对话。

feel really called out right now because remember there being a conversation with Chris when I started having to travel for work a lot.

我说，你得当第一个高尔夫家长。

And I'm like, you have to be the first golf parent.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不能是学校通讯录上那个联系人，因为我总是在外出差。

I can't be the person on the call sheet at school because I'm always traveling for work.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们必须角色互换，现在我意识到我在性方面对身边这位可怜的人也做了同样的事。

We've got to reverse roles, and now I'm realizing I'm doing the same thing with the poor man around sex.

你得是第一个主动的人。

Like, you gotta be the first call person.

我认为，如果你是个容易感到不适的人，或者像我一样，总觉得‘我就希望有人能替我处理这件事’，背后可能有更深层的原因。

I think there's probably a deeper reason if you're the person who's squeamish or you're like me and you feel like, I just want somebody to take care of this for me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者你对谈论

Or you're uncomfortable talking about

它感到不舒服。

it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对你而言，为生活中这一部分承担责任，主动发起亲密行为是因为你真的想要，这会如何改变你？

What does taking responsibility for this part of your life and being somebody who initiates intimacy because you want it, how does that change you?

嗯。

Mhmm.

确实会改变。

It absolutely does.

我们必须认识到，我们的性生活是我们自己的责任。

It's really important for us to recognize that our sex life is our responsibility.

当然，谁不希望拥有一个无所不知、能自动为你做好一切的完美伴侣呢？

And, of course, who doesn't want this amazing magical partner who knows everything to do and just goes ahead and does it?

但那并不是真实的生活。

But that's sadly not real life.

但当我们真正承担起这份责任，并做出决定时，确实会带来一种喜悦。

But there really is a joy in us taking that ownership and deciding, you know what?

我想自己去弄清楚这件事。

I wanna figure this out for myself.

我想弄明白，为什么我会感到这么不适？

I wanna understand why do I feel so squeamish?

为什么我会觉得这么不舒服？

Why do I feel so uncomfortable?

为什么我会感到这么尴尬？

Why do I feel so awkward?

我自己也经历过很多这样的时刻。

I've gone through plenty of those experiences myself.

我曾经在很长一段时间里，对主动发起感到深深的不安，即使到现在，有时我还是会感到有点尴尬，甚至试图说服自己不要这么做。

I actually felt deeply uncomfortable initiating for a really long time, there and are even times in this day where I get a little awkward and I kind of try to talk myself out of it.

不。

No.

我不应该。

I I shouldn't.

他现在正在做些什么。

He he's doing something right now.

我不去打扰他。

I I won't bother him.

所以我懂了。

So I get it.

这确实让人很不舒服，但关于我们自己，还有很多需要探索的知识，比如这种感觉究竟从我内心何处而来？

It is really uncomfortable, but there's so much knowledge for us to uncover about ourselves of, like, where does that come from within me?

我认为，尤其是作为女性，我们从小就被教导说，我们的职责是抑制性欲。

And I think especially as women, we grow up being taught that our job is to put the brakes on sex.

我们应当说不。

We're supposed to say no.

我们应当放慢节奏。

We're supposed to slow things down.

我们不应当太频繁地说好，但同时，社会也给我们女性设定了种种规则。

We're not supposed to say yes too often, but we're also not you know, it's there are all these rules that get put on us as women.

即使到今天，即使我已经做了这么多自我成长的工作，当Xander主动时，我仍会条件反射地觉得：我不该这样。

And I find myself even to this day, even after all this work that I've done, there will be times that Xander will initiate, and I get that knee jerk like, I'm not supposed to.

哦，这不好。

Oh, that's bad.

我不该这样。

I'm not supposed to.

所以，能够意识到这并不是真正的我。

And so just being able to recognize that's not me.

这只是我从小被灌输的陈腐观念，是在一个极度性压抑的社会中成长几十年的结果。

That's some crap that I was taught, decades of crappy socialization, growing up in a really sex negative society.

因此，我可以承认这些想法存在于我内心，但我也能明白，它们并不代表真正的我。

So I can acknowledge that that lies within me, but I can also acknowledge that is not me.

但我还想鼓励你们思考：在性生活中，你们每个人具体能通过哪些方式感受到更多的关怀和体贴？

But what I would also encourage you guys to think about are what are those specific ways that each of you could feel more cared for, more catered to during sex?

并列出具体的做法。

And come up with specific things.

比如，我喜欢他花时间给我按摩背部，做真正的按摩，而不是那种只持续二十秒、手指刚往下就完事的敷衍了事。

Is it I love it when he takes time to massage my back and do a real massage, not one of those twenty seconds, like, I'm my fingers are heading down.

那你要怎么做？

Is that what do?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我希望他给我做真正的按摩。

I want him to do a real massage.

我喜欢他帮我梳头发。

I love it when he brushes my hair.

我喜欢他为我放好洗澡水，让我有十分钟的独处时间。

I love it when he draws me a bath and lets me have ten minutes of alone time.

那就是我的过渡仪式。

And that's my transition ritual.

然后我才进入和你一起相处的时光。

And then I come into, you know, spending time together.

我也会问他同样的问题。

And I would ask him the same question.

他具体希望你怎样照顾他呢？

What are the specific ways that he could feel taken care of by you?

因为这也是一种真正的亲密。

Because that's some real intimacy there too.

如果我们能允许伴侣照顾我们，并这样表达爱意。

If we can let our partner take care of us and tell Love him like this.

是的。

Yeah.

这些是你能做的、让我感到被珍视和照顾的事情，让我可以安心地接受。

These are the things that you could do that would help me feel so cherished and taken care of, and, like, I could just relax into receiving.

尤其是对于我们女性来说，我们很难学会接受。

And especially for us women, we struggle so much with receiving.

所以，你可以问问你的伴侣：这是我需要的，能帮助我更好地接受。

So to be able to ask your partner, you know, here's what I need to help me receive.

我还有更多问题，但需要短暂休息一下，给我们的赞助商一点时间说几句话。

I have so many more questions, but I need to take a quick break and give our sponsors a chance to say a few words.

所以请认真听，并把这个内容分享给某个人，因为这会改善你的性生活，任何你分享的人也会喜欢这些信息。

So take a listen, and please share this with somebody because this is going to improve your sex life, and anybody that you share this with is gonna love the information too.

请不要走开，因为范妮莎还有很多内容要与你分享，我们短暂停顿后马上回来。

And don't go anywhere because Vanessa has so much more to share with you and we're gonna be waiting for you after this short break.

请继续关注我们。

So stay with us.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

你的朋友，梅尔·罗宾斯。

It's your buddy, Mel Robbins.

今天，我们要聊所有关于性的话题。

And today, we're talking all things sex.

我非常喜欢这场对话，也享受和你们一起学习，听范妮莎·马林的分享。

And I'm loving this conversation, and I'm loving learning with you as we're talking to Vanessa Marin.

所以，瓦妮莎，一对夫妻如果正走向性冷淡的阶段，他们能做的最好的一件事是什么？

So, Vanessa, what is the single best thing a couple can do if they're on their way to a dry bedroom?

谈谈这个问题。

Talk about it.

在关系陷入困境时，我们大多数人并不愿意正视正在发生的事情。

So most of us, when we're in these difficult stages of a relationship, don't wanna acknowledge what's going on.

我知道当我和赞德经历性冷淡期时，感觉很尴尬。

I know when Xander and I have had our dry fall moments, it's like, it's embarrassing.

你不想承认卧室里那头大象的存在。

You don't wanna acknowledge the elephant in the bedroom.

于是你把头埋进沙子里。

And so you you bury your head in the sand.

你不愿意谈论它。

You don't wanna talk about it.

但结果是，这会让你的伴侣疑惑你对这件事的真实感受。

But what happens is it leaves your partner wondering how you really feel about that.

我记得在我们关系早期，有一次我发现自己意识到，我已经不记得上一次发生性关系是什么时候了。

I remember there was a time early in our relationship where I I caught myself realizing, I don't remember the last time we had sex.

然后我的下一个想法是，Xander注意到了吗？

And then my next thought was, does Xander notice?

他意识到已经很久了吗，还是他根本不在乎？

Does he realize it's been a long time, or does he not care?

所有这些恐惧和不确定性都涌上了我的心头。

And it was all this, you know, fear and uncertainty came up for me.

他根本不在乎吗？

Does he not care?

当我们不谈论这件事时，就会发生这种情况。

And that's what happens when we're not talking about it.

你的伴侣会想，他们是不是不再在乎我了？

Your partner wonders, do they not care about me anymore?

他们是不是不再对我有吸引力了？

They're not attracted to me anymore.

所以，即使是像承认这一点这样简单的事情也好，因为说实话，没有人会故意陷入性冷淡期，因为生活总会发生各种状况。

So even just something as simple as acknowledging because let's be honest, nobody gets into a dry spell on purpose because life happens.

生活总会发生各种状况。

Life happens.

性冷淡期？

Dry spell?

作为一名持证性治疗师，你觉得在一段关系中，正常情况下应该多久没有性生活？

Like, as a licensed sex therapist, is the normal amount of time that you should go without having sex?

或者我想知道，你怎么知道自己已经进入危险区了？

Or, like, I I wanna know, like, when do you know you're in the danger zone

嗯。

Mhmm.

而实际上，处于关系中的人们平均多久发生一次性行为？

Versus how much sex are people actually having when they're in a relationship?

并没有一个明确的定义来说明什么是性冷淡期。

There's no specific definition of what counts as a dry spell.

一些治疗师会使用一年作为标准

Some therapists will use, like, a one year

一年。

One year.

可能算是

Might be a

他们可能会称这种情况为无性关系或无性婚姻。

they might call that a sexless relationship or a sexless marriage.

但大多数人表示，如果已经三个月到六个月了，对我来说这就感觉像是进入了干燥期。

But most people report, if it's been, like, three to six months, to me, that feels like a dry spell.

我们对观众做过这方面的调查。

We've pulled our audience about that.

所以，即使只是承认它并说：嘿。

So even just acknowledging it and saying, hey.

我知道最近生活太充实了。

I know life has been so full lately.

我们一直忙于孩子的各种事情。

We've had all the kids stuff.

工作一直忙得不可开交，但我想让你知道，我一直在想着你，很想你。

Work has been crazy, but I want you to know I'm thinking about you, and I miss you.

我真的希望我们能一起看看日历，找出一些时间，专门留给我们两个人。

And I really want us to a look at the calendar and figure out what's some time that we can carve out for just us.

这能让你的伴侣感受到，你依然在乎他。

That helps your partner recognize, like, you still care.

你依然希望与他建立联系。

You still wanna connect.

你说你和你丈夫每天晚上都亲热？

You say that you and your husband make out every night?

每天晚上。

Every night.

什么？

What?

为什么？

Why?

嗯，我们几年前开始这么做，因为我们陷入了我刚刚告诉你的那种大多数情侣都会陷入的困境。

Well, we started doing this a couple years ago because we fell into the exact same trap that I just told you most couples fall into.

有一天我突然意识到，我已经不记得上一次我们接吻是什么时候了。

You know, I I realized one day, I don't remember the last time that we made out.

在我们关系刚开始的时候，我们经常接吻，那是一种极其甜蜜、纯粹的感觉，仿佛让你重回青少年时代，在车里接吻的时光。

And we used to make out all the time at the beginning of our relationship, and it was just one of those incredibly sweet, pure, like, brings you back to being a teenager, making out in the car.

于是我意识到，我真的好怀念那种感觉。

And so I realized I I really miss that.

我怀念我们不再彼此接吻了。

I miss that we're not making out with each other.

所以我想，算了，不如这样吧？

So I decided, you know what?

我们把它变成一种仪式吧。

Let's make a ritual out of it.

让我们设立一个有趣的小小仪式，每天晚上都要亲吻。

Let's make a fun little ritual where I want us to make out every single night.

所以头一个月左右，我们定了一条规则，我说，这个仪式的目的不是为了互相挑逗然后发生性关系。

And so for the first, I think about a month, we made a little rule that I said, you know, the point of this is not that we're trying to get each other turned on and have sex.

因此，亲吻之后我们实际上要禁止发生性行为。

So we're actually gonna say no sex after the make out.

你能给我讲讲这个过程吗？

So walk me through this.

因为你提到在卧室，我立刻想到的是和克里斯在厨房。

When because you said the bedroom, and I'm I immediately imagine the kitchen with Chris.

但没错。

But Yeah.

你可以做到的。

You can do it.

你能详细讲讲你和你丈夫是如何开始这个仪式的，以及你们每一步具体怎么做吗？

Through how you and your husband started this ritual and step by step what you do?

所以我们确实是在卧室做，但你完全可以换另一个地方。

So we do do it in the bedroom, but you could absolutely do it in another place.

如果你担心这会自然演变成更进一步的行为，我建议你从另一个地方开始。

And if you're worried about it feeling like it needs to lead to more, I actually would recommend starting it in a different place.

但我们定下了一个规则，在第一个月里，亲吻后不能发生性行为。

But we made that rule that for the that first month, no sex afterwards.

即使我们想继续，也必须停下来。

We have to leave even if we want to.

规则是：只需要有轻微的舌吻接触即可。

And the rule was all that has to happen is there has to be a little tongue contact.

可能只有十秒钟。

So it could be ten seconds.

也可能持续几分钟。

It could be a couple minutes.

我们只是每天晚上花大约一分钟，这成了我们之间一个非常甜蜜的连接时刻，让我们纯粹为了亲吻而享受亲吻。

And we just do, like, you know, minute every night, and it's just this really sweet little moment of connection for us where we get to enjoy kissing just for the sake of kissing.

这是一种重新唤起浪漫感的绝佳方式。

It's a really great way to bring that romance back.

什么是毛发反应？

What is the bristle response?

这是我创造的一个术语，用来描述当你的伴侣伸手触碰你时，你全身本能地退缩的感觉。

That is the name of a term that I coined to describe when your partner reaches out to touch you and you feel your whole body recoil.

你会感到身体紧绷。

You feel yourself tense up.

你就是不想被触碰。

You just don't wanna be touched.

而这种反应通常源于糟糕的发起方式。

And what that's often the result of is actually bad initiation.

正如我所说，我们很多人都形成了这样的联想：触碰就意味着性行为。

So like I said, a lot of us have started to make that connection that touch leads to sex.

由于很多人在发起亲密接触时感到脆弱，大多数人不会直接用语言表达出来。

And because so many people do feel vulnerable initiating, most people won't come out and directly use their words.

所以他们会这么做。

So they will do that.

那种持续时间稍长的拥抱，放在大腿上久久不移的手，我们的直觉其实非常敏锐。

The hug that lingers a little bit longer than it should, the hand on the thigh that's lingering, and I we have such interesting radar.

我能立刻察觉到赞德开始主动接触的那一刻。

Like, I can tell the split second that Xander starts to initiate.

我知道你在打什么主意。

I'm like, I know what you're doing.

于是，我们很多人都对伴侣的触碰变得警惕，因为我们很担心：哦，我不希望他碰我，然后事情会进一步发展。

And so a lot of us have then become on guard to our partner's touch because we're so worried, like, oh, I don't want him to touch me, and then it leads to more.

我不想碰他，但他却会因此兴奋起来。

I don't wanna touch him, and then he'll get turned on.

他以为我想要更进一步。

He thinks I want it to lead to more.

所以我们开始回避这种接触，身体也会对此产生反应。

So we start cutting ourselves off from that touch, and we our whole body will react to it.

那一刻的感觉非常糟糕。

And it feels terrible in the moment.

这是你在这个世界上最爱的人。

Like, this is the person that you love the most in this world.

即使他们只是想轻轻拍一下你的背，你也会本能地感到：不，不行。

And even if they are just trying to give you a casual little pat on the back, like, feel yourself like, no.

离我远点。

Get away from me.

所以，要消除这种毛刺般的反应，真正的解决方法是增加非性化的身体接触。

So, actually, the the solution for getting rid of the bristle reaction is, again, more nonsexual physical touch.

我们必须打破‘触碰就意味着性’的关联。

We have to break that connection that touch is supposed to lead to sex.

如果你正在听这段话，并意识到自己会本能地抗拒触碰，这可能是无心的，因为你的想法确实如此。

If you're listening to this and you realize you bristle, and it might be innocuous because you literally are just like, it's true.

我内心已经认定，每次有人碰我，都是想要更多。

Like, I have determined in my mind that every time somebody touches me, they want more.

不知为何，我不想要更多，或者我没时间，或者我生你的气，所以我不想和你发生性关系。

And for whatever reason, I don't want more or I don't have time to or I'm mad at you, so I don't wanna have sex with you.

作为持证性治疗师，你会建议一个人如何对伴侣说，才能改变这种动态并明确指出来？

As a licensed sex therapist, what would you counsel someone to say exactly to their partner to shift this dynamic and call it out?

利用这个播客来开启一场对话。

To use this podcast to open up a conversation.

说：我听了这次访谈。

Say, I heard this interview.

我以前从未听说过这个术语，但我意识到我正是在这么做。

I'd never heard of this term before, but I realize that's what I'm doing.

我不希望继续这样，我也知道这对你来说肯定也不舒服。

And I don't want to be doing it, and I'm sure that it doesn't feel good for you either.

因此，通过她在这期节目中给出的建议，我意识到我希望我们关系中能有更多身体接触。

And so what I'm realizing with the advice that she gave on the episode is that I want us to have more touch in our relationship.

我希望你能随时伸出手给我一个拥抱，或者轻轻拍我的背，而我不会再有这种反应。

I wanna I want you to be able to reach out and give me a hug or stroke me on the back whenever you feel like it without me having that reaction.