274. 弗兰斯·德瓦尔谈灵长类动物中的性与性别

您现在收听的是迈克尔·席尔默节目。大家好，我是迈克尔·席尔默。今天的嘉宾是杰出的灵长类动物学家弗兰兹·杜瓦尔，他的第十三本著作《灵长类学家眼中的性别差异》刚刚出版。弗兰兹曾入选《时代》杂志全球百大最具影响力人物。

You're listening to the Michael Schirmer show. Hello, everyone. It's Michael Schirmer here for The Michael Schirmer Show. My guest today is the great Franz Duval, the primatologist with his thirteenth book out called different gender through the eyes of a primatologist. Franz has been named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people.

他是埃默里大学心理学系C·H·钱德勒讲席教授，耶基斯国家灵长类研究中心'生命纽带'中心主任，现居佐治亚州亚特兰大。为了让您感受弗兰兹著作的深度，以下是他的作品年表：1982年《黑猩猩的政治》让他声名鹊起，揭示了黑猩猩群体中复杂的政治权谋网络——它们简直就是小马基雅维利主义者。

He is the c h Chandler professor in Emory University psychology department and director of the Living Link Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia. Just to give you a feel for Franz's depth of his writing, here's a list of his books. Chimpanzee Politics in 1982, which put him on the map showing that chimps in fact have complex matrices of political machinations. They're little Machiavellians.

《灵长类的和平缔造》《天性善良：被遗忘的倭黑猩猩》——正是弗兰兹让倭黑猩猩进入了文化视野。《猿与寿司大师》《我的家族相册》《我们的内心猿性》《灵长类与哲学家》《共情时代》《倭黑猩猩与无神论者》《我们够聪明吗？》以及他上次做客播客时宣传的《最后的拥抱》。我和弗兰兹探讨了人类、灵长类及哺乳动物的性与性别议题。

Peacemaking among primates, good natured, Bonobo, the forgotten ape. It was really Franz that put, Bonobos on the cultural map. The ape and the sushi master, My Family Album, Our Inner Ape, Primates and Philosophers, The Age of Empathy, The Bonobo and The Atheist, Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? And then his previous book, which he was on this podcast, Mama's Last Hug. So Franz and I discussed sex and gender in humans, primates, mammals.

身份认同与性取向的差异——不仅存在于人类，也存在于灵长类。二元与非二元之间的连续谱系：像我们这样的有性繁殖物种，其性别分类能模糊到什么程度？性别差异在生理和心理特征上的体现。同性恋现象如何演化？黑猩猩与倭黑猩猩的行为差异。

The difference between who you identify as versus who you're attracted to, again, not just in humans, but in primates. Binary versus non binary versus a continuum, that is how fuzzy can human sex categories be for sexually reproducing species like ours, or for that matter, other species. Particularly primates, gender differences, and physical and mental characteristics. Who would homosexual how would homosexuality evolve? Chimpanzees and bonobos and their differences.

性信号的意义：例如女性高潮或男性乳头的功能？关于端庄雌性的迷思。强奸行为（如果存在目的的话）的演化动因——与性、权力或两者都有关？谋杀与人类暴力、支配与权力、敌对与友谊、竞争与合作、双亲抚育、同性性行为——这些现象在倭黑猩猩中表现得尤为有趣。最后是身心二元论：弗兰兹认为这要追溯至笛卡尔的身心割裂理论，这种二元世界观使我们难以在灵长类行为背景下理解许多人类行为。

Sexual signals, what is the purpose, for example, of orgasms in women or nipples in men, myths of the demure female, the purpose, if there is any, to rape, why would that have evolved? Does it have to do with sex or power or both? Murder and human violence, dominance and power, rivalry, friendship, competition and cooperation, maternal and paternal care of the young, same sex sex, As you'll see, this gets pretty interesting with Bedobos particularly. And then finally, mind body dualism and Franz's idea that this all goes back to Descartes and this split between mind and body and that we have this kind of dualism world view that makes it difficult to understand a lot of human behavior in the context of all primary behavior primate behavior. Alright.

若您喜欢本节目，欢迎前往skeptic.com/donate支持我们，您也可订阅新版印刷杂志。本期主题是跨性别议题，下期将探讨堕胎争议——我们将同时呈现反堕胎与支持选择权的观点。

If you enjoy this podcast, I appreciate your support. Go to skeptic.com/donate where you can also subscribe to the magazine. Here's the print magazine, newly redesigned. And this one's on trans matters. The one that comes out next, is on abortion matters, which we present both pro life and pro choice arguments.

录制当天恰逢美联社曝出最高法院关于多布斯案的泄密文件，显示罗诉韦德案可能于六七月间被推翻。本期节目由Wondrium赞助播出。

Relevant since the day I'm recording this is the day the Associated Press announced that a leaked document from the Supreme Court deliberations in the Dobbs case that they're hearing that'll apparently be released June or July indicates that they will overturn Roe v Wade. So this is a huge topic. I also asked Franz about that. Alright. This episode is brought to you by Wondrium.

Wondrium是一系列大学水平的音视频课程和纪录片，由教学公司制作发行。你可能知道他们，就是‘伟大课程’系列。我有两门课，一门是怀疑论101，另一门是阴谋论。去看看吧。Wondrium通过短视频、长课程、教程、实操课、旅行纪录片等多种形式，为你提供引人入胜的教育内容，涵盖你曾好奇的所有主题，甚至包括你从未想过会感兴趣的内容。

Wondrium is a series of college level audio and video courses and documentaries produced and distributed by the teaching company. You know them, The Great Courses. I have two, one on skepticism one zero one and the other on conspiracy theories. Check it out. Wondrium brings you engaging educational content through short form videos, long form courses, tutorials, how to lessons, travelogues, documentaries, and more, covering every topic you've ever wondered about and many you never thought you'd wonder about.

我在那里发现了很多宝藏。这是我第二次学习的课程——由我朋友兼同事Bart Erman讲授的《基督教的胜利》。我读过他大部分著作，也上过他在教学公司开设的大多数课程。

I've discovered a bunch there. Here's what I just took for a second time. This is the course on the triumph of Christianity by my friend and colleague, Bart Erman. I've read most of his books. I've taken most of his teaching company courses.

我重听这门课是因为他详尽梳理学术背景和争议的方式实在太精彩了。我最爱这部分内容：本质上探讨的是基督教如何从12人小教派发展到如今20亿信徒？这过程究竟如何发生？结果发现圣经学者和宗教史学家对此存在巨大争议。

I listened to this one again a second time because it's just so good the way he kinda gives all the background and debates among scholars. I love this part. Basically, the question is is how did you get from a small sect of 12 people and a messiah to 2,000,000,000 people today? How does that happen? And and so there's this turns out to be a huge debate amongst biblical scholars and historians of religion.

Bart系统分析了各种理论后提出自己的观点——我比较认同这种人口统计学解释：缓慢的人口增长、渐进式皈依、生育率因素以及通过扩大家庭规模传播福音。通过本节目订阅Wondrium年度计划可享8折优惠，还能获得免费试用期，让你尽情试听各类讲座课程。

And so Barth goes through all the different theories, and then he presents his own, which I tend to agree with. It's more of a demographic sort of population increase, slow growth, slow conversion, a little bit of fecundity there, and keeping the families larger and and spreading the gospel that way. Anyway, check it out. If you subscribe to Wondrium, which is a subscription service now, through the show, you get 20% off the, annual plan and then also a free trial, which is always great because you can go ahead and and take all the time you need here on listening to different lectures and courses. Try it out.

若不满意可随时取消订阅。但怎么会有人想取消呢？内容实在太丰富精彩了。说真的，我太爱这家公司了。

If you don't like it, then you don't have to continue with your subscription. But why would you do that? Because it's just fabulous. It's just endless content. Let me tell you, I I love this company so much.

要不是创办了《怀疑论者》杂志，我肯定会加入这家公司——因为他们完美实践了我的理念：向大众传播知识、智慧和优质内容。现在订阅价格低得难以置信。快访问1dream.com/shirmer看看吧。

If I hadn't started Skeptic Magazine and done what I'm doing now, I would have done this because this company is so good at at doing what I think is important. That is to say dispersing, knowledge and wisdom and great content to as many people as possible, and now it's so cheap. It's it's hard to believe. So check it out. Go to 1dream.com/shirmer.

网址是1dream（即w0ndrium），1dream.com/shirmer。可享免费试用和年度计划8折优惠。感谢收听。

That's 1dream, w0ndrium,1dream.com/shirmer. You get that free trial. You get 20% off the annual plan. Check it out. Thanks for listening.

节目开始了。好的，我们正在直播。弗兰兹·德瓦尔，很高兴见到你。最近怎么样？好久不见了。

Here's the show. All right and we are live. Franz Deval, nice to see you. How are you? It's been a while.

是啊。上次见面我记得是在机场之类的地方。这是我能回忆起的。

Yeah. Last time I saw you was I think at an airport or something. That's what I remember.

没错。你之前上过节目，但确实是在机场偶遇。我记得是在多伦多机场，你在那些蛇形队伍里排在我前面几排。如果没记错的话，当时我正在看《华尔街日报》或《纽约时报》，上面有篇书评。

Yeah. Well you've been on the show before but yes, that's right. I ran into you. Think it was like the Toronto Airport and you were in line ahead of me a couple of rows in those zigzagging lines. And there was if I recall, I think I was reading like the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, there was a review.

那篇评论写的是你的某本书，然后你就出现在那里。

It was either of of one of your books by you, and there you were.

这真是太巧了。

It was so funny.

这本新书风格不同。恭喜你。我数过了，这是你的第十三本书，《幸运数字13》。嗯。

So the new book is different. Congratulations. This is I counted them up. This is your thirteenth book, Lucky Number 13. Mhmm.

我们今天录制节目的日子，正如你所知，美国最高法院文件疑似泄露，显示他们可能投票推翻罗诉韦德案。所有人都在讨论这件事。所以我想听听你的看法，毕竟这是当下房间里的大象（指明显但被回避的问题）。灵长类动物中有类似杀婴行为的先例吗？既然你来自荷兰，北欧国家在堕胎问题上与美国相比有何不同？

And so we're recording this on the day that, as you know, the US Supreme Court document apparently was leaked that they may vote to overturn Roe v Wade. So everybody is talking about that. So I just thought I'd get your opinion on that since it's kind of the elephant in the room at the moment, at least today. Are there any primate examples of something like that, infanticide or or or whatever? And and since you're from Holland, how do Northern European countries handle this abortion issue compared to The United States?

哦，这让我回想起1970年代。我妻子是法国人，我们当时会接待从巴黎乘火车到阿姆斯特丹的法国女性，在荷兰接应她们，因为当时法国仍禁止堕胎，而荷兰已经合法化。这些女性非常害怕，她们抵达时总担心会有警察或这是违法行为。其实她们所做的一切完全合法，是去医院接受手术，但她们仍非常紧张。想到她们不得不长途跋涉才能获得合法堕胎，我们觉得非常悲哀。我觉得美国现在正走向那个方向——人们不得不为此长途奔波且担惊受怕。

Oh, it takes me back to the 1970s. My wife is French, and we would receive French women by train coming from Paris to Amsterdam, and we would receive them in The Netherlands because abortion was illegal in France still, and it was already legal in Netherlands. And these women were very scared because they would arrive and they would think there would be police or it would be illegal. It was completely legal what they were doing, they were going to a hospital, and they were very nervous about it, and we thought it was so sad that they had to travel so far to get a legal abortion, and I think The US is heading that way at the moment, that people have to travel and and be scared to do this kind of thing.

是啊。我不知道佐治亚州的法律会怎么变。你...你刚好知道如果法案被推翻后他们计划怎么做吗？

Yeah. I don't know what the laws are gonna be in Georgia. Do you do you do you happen to know what they're planning on doing if it gets overturned?

嗯。我不清楚具体

Yeah. I don't know what it

我觉得可能会这样。我的意思是，这个裁决并没有在全国范围内禁止堕胎，只是把决定权交还给各州。所以各州会有不同法律。据我了解，大约一半的州会继续允许堕胎，另一半要么完全禁止，要么在怀孕六周后禁止，差不多是这样。

Well, think there might be. I mean, it does it doesn't over it doesn't ban abortions internet nationally. It it just turns it back to the states. And so different states have different laws. As as I read it, about half are gonna continue allowing abortions and about half will ban them either altogether or just after six weeks, something like that, up to six weeks.

但你是

But you're

说到灵长类动物的联系，广义来说当然是雄性对雌性繁殖的控制。要知道在灵长类中虽然没有手术堕胎或药物堕胎，但雄性控制雌性繁殖确实是动物界许多雄性的目标。我认为更大的图景是：这个国家的男性决定要掌控女性的身体。这里存在严重的性别问题，我觉得非常成问题，听起来就像中世纪，但这就是我们现在的处境。

asking the connection with the primates is of course male control over female reproduction, if we put it much more general. You know, in the primates we don't have a surgical abortion or a pill abortion, but male control of a female reproduction, that's definitely a goal of many males in the animal world, is to be in charge of this, you know, and I think that's the bigger picture, is that the men of this country have decided that they are in charge of the bodies of women. There is a big gender issue here, and I think it's highly problematic, and to me it sounds like the Middle Ages, but that's where we are at the moment.

没错。他们当然不会明说。如果你问反堕胎人士他们的论点，他们不会说'我们要控制女性身体'。他们会说些类似'这是人命，你在杀人，是谋杀，所以政府有责任阻止谋杀'这样的话。

Yeah. Of course they don't say that. If you ask a pro lifer what their arguments are, they don't say we want to control women's bodies. I mean they'll say something like, well it's a human life and you're killing a human life, it's murder, and therefore the state has an interest in stopping murders.

当然。对。对。对。他们有一大堆好论点，但归根结底还是控制女性。

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they have all sorts of good arguments, but it's still the controlling women.

对。

Yeah.

是的。这是我反对反堕胎立场、支持选择权的三大论点之一——历史上男性总是凌驾于女性之上，控制她们的性行为、选择性伴侣的权利。你知道，在其他领域也一直如此。男性体型更大、更强壮等等。所以利维坦式国家的部分意义就在于遏制男性暴力。嗯。

Yes. Well, that's one of my three major arguments against the pro life position in favor of pro choice is that historically men have always lorded it over women and controlling their their sexuality, who they have sex with, and, you know, the that's always been the case in other areas too. Men are bigger, stronger, and so on. And and so part of the point of having a Leviathan state is to put controls over male violence. And Mhmm.

这种制度是好的。对文明发展有益。正如平克指出的，它全面减少了暴力现象，而这将是又一个例证。进化心理学里提到的配偶看守和嫉妒心理，本质上就是男性控制女性的进化机制。这才是核心。

And that's been good. That's been a good thing for civilization. I mean, it's as as Pinker notes, it's led to the reduction of violence and across the board, and that that would be one more example of that. And as you know, in evolutionary psychology, they talk about mate guarding and jealousy evolved so that men can control women. That's the whole point.

所以文明的根本意义就是要反抗这种控制。

So the whole point of civilization is we gotta push back against that.

但人们常说雄性支配雌性是自然规律，甚至认为体型差异——男性比女性更高大强壮，在灵长类中更极端，比如雄性大猩猩是雌性的两倍大——就是为了控制女性。但研究表明，灵长类和其他物种的行为相关性显示，雄性体型和性二态主要源于雄性竞争。雄性竞争越激烈，体型就进化得越大，控制雌性只是次要结果。

But you know, people often say that the natural order is that males dominate females, and some people even believe that the size difference, that men are bigger than women and stronger, and in the other primates it's even more extreme, like in the gorilla, it's even, the male is twice the size of the female. People often think that that male size has to do with controlling women, that that's the goal of why the males are bigger. But it has nothing to do with it, the studies that have been done on correlating behaviors in the primates and other species find that male size and the sexual dimorphism has especially to do with male competition, male male competition. So the more male male competition, the bigger males grow, because then they are more successful in that competition, that they control and dominate females is sort of secondary. That's not the main goal in life, the goal is to compete well with other males.

因此当人们说'雄性支配雌性是天性，所以雄性体型更大'时，他们搞错了。在我的书里还指出，我们的两种近亲物种就存在完全不同的两性关系模式，即便对人类近亲而言，雄性控制雌性也绝非简单定论。

And so when people say the natural order is that males dominate females and that's why males are bigger and so on, I think they have it wrong, in addition, in my book of course I explain that we have two close relatives who have a very different arrangement between the sexes, and so even for our two closest relatives it's not such a simple picture that males control females.

是的，这个观点很棒，正好引出了你的书。不过更笼统地说，我一直想问——我们相识多年，我从九十年代就常看你做公开演讲。公众似乎期待你能通过灵长类行为（特别是大猩猩、黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩）来揭示人性本质。你是否觉得，只要理解它们，我们就能更好地理解自己？

Yes, that's a great point, and that gets us into your book. But just more generally, I just wanted to ask, you know, I've known you a long time. I've I've seen you give many public talks all the way back to the nineties. There's this sense I I I get from the public that they're looking to you for some deep insight into human nature through primate behavior, particularly the great apes and the chimps and bonobos. Is there a sense that you have that, if we can understand them, we'll understand ourselves better?

我认为可以这么说：我们会知道自己从何而来。我们并非直接由黑猩猩或倭黑猩猩演化而来，而是与它们拥有一个可能略有不同的共同祖先。但人们确实想知道人类起源、我们的背景，再加上性别议题——他们总听说性别完全是文化和社会建构的，对此很多人持怀疑态度，所以想听听灵长类动物学家对性别生物学层面的见解。而我的工作就是解释这些，实际上会让问题更复杂，因为这本来就不简单。

I think we will know where we come from, so to speak. We don't directly descend from chimps or bonobos, we have a common ancestor with them who was probably a bit different, you know. But I think people do want to know where we come from, what our background is, and with the gender issue in addition, they hear so often that gender is cultural and social and that's all it is, and I think many people are a bit skeptical about that, and so they want to hear from the primatologist what he thinks about the biology of gender, the biological side of things, and I'm there to explain that, and actually make matters more complicated because it's not so simple.

确实如此。毕竟是你让倭黑猩猩进入大众视野的——人们总在争论我们更像倭黑猩猩还是黑猩猩。这问题本身就很奇怪，如你所说，我们并非它们的后代，而是表亲关系。

Yeah. Indeed. Well, you're the man that put bonobos on the map, there's this sense of which one are we more like, bonobos or chimps. And it's a weird question because as you said, we're not from them. You know, we we are cousins.

我们与它们的共同祖先生活在600到800万年前，这么久远的时间跨度，怎么会有人认为我们该像其中某一方呢？又凭什么觉得我们能从中获得启示？

We have a common ancestor, what, six to 8,000,000 years ago. That's a long time. Why would anybody think we would be like one or the other? And why why would anybody think we could learn from that?

没错，这里也存在很多一厢情愿的想法。比如通常女性更喜欢倭黑猩猩——它们是雌性主导、更和平、性行为更多，有点像嬉皮士。而许多男性（特别是人类学家）对倭黑猩猩感到不适，因为他们整个进化理论都建立在雄性暴力、战争和狩猎基础上，倭黑猩猩这种'灵长类嬉皮士'完全不符合他们的框架。所以你会看到人们各有所好——但既然它们在基因上与我们的亲缘度完全相同（因为它们是在与我们分化后才彼此分化的），我们就该同时考量两者，没必要非选不可。

Yeah, we, there's a lot of wishful thinking in that also, is that generally women like the bonobo better. Bonobos are female dominated and more peaceful and have more sex and sort of hippies, and many women go for the bonobo, so to speak. Many men are uncomfortable with the bonobo, especially anthropologists, because they have built a whole evolutionary scenario around male violence and warfare and hunting, and a primate hippie doesn't really fit in their view, so the anthropologists are not so happy with the bonobo, they prefer the chimpanzee, and they always talk about the chimpanzee, which is male dominated and more violent. And so you have these groups of people who prefer this one or that one. I feel since they are genetically exactly equally close to us, because they split after they split off from us, we need to just take them both into account, and we don't need to choose between the two.

它们还都有些常被忽视的特质很有意思。比如尽管人类学家很少谈论人类的性意识（他们对此很避讳），但人类确实是性欲旺盛的灵长类。从这个角度看，倭黑猩猩就很有研究价值。而黑猩猩则是雄性联结的社会——雄性间既有激烈竞争，又会互相理毛、结伴活动，这点与我们很像。所以在性别与性议题上，两者都能提供独特视角，我们应该兼收并蓄。

And they both have something too often that I find interesting, so for example, even though the anthropologists rarely talk about the eroticism of the human species, they are very shy about it, like most scientists, the human is a very sexy species, a very sexy primate, and very sex obsessed. And so in that regard the Budobo is a very interesting character to contemplate. And then the chimpanzee is male bonded. Lots of males have a lot of rivalry and competition, but they also hang out together and they groom each other and things like that, very male bonded species, and that's something they share with us. And so they both have something to offer in the discussion about gender and sexuality, and I think we should take them both into account.

是啊，我喜欢你书里那些自传性的小故事。记得当年'拥挤导致暴力'是科学界流行理论时，你指出其实在你成长的荷兰这样人口稠密的国家，人们反而会发展出非暴力的冲突解决方式。这很大程度上取决于科学家的成长背景——以及这种背景如何影响他们对数据的解读。

Yeah. One the things I like about your book is there's some autobiographical tidbits in there. I remember back in the day when crowding leads to violence was a popular theme in science. And you pointed out that, in fact, if you live in a country like where you grew up where there was a lot of crowding, in fact, the people find ways to resolve their conflicts without it turning violent. And that so much of this depends on where you happen what what the where the scientist happens to have been born and raised and how that influences what they think they're seeing in the data.

对吧？所以这里有点...嗯...科学社会学的成分。

Right? So there's a little bit of Yeah. Sociology of science there.

科学家们在讨论他们的文化。

Scientists are talking about their culture.

对，是的。在你的新书里，你提到自己在一个有六个兄弟的家庭长大，还上了男校，这如何影响你的研究和思维方式？后来初次接触母亲以外的女性群体时，那种认知冲击是怎样的？

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And in your new book, you talk about being raised raised with, what, six brothers? And so, you know, and you went to an all boys school and how that affected your own research and thinking, and then what an eye opener it was to encounter the female part of the species other than your mom.

请详细谈谈这段经历。

So talk about that a little bit.

是的，我对性别的兴趣部分源于成长在男性为主的家庭，早期也就读男校，直到大学才接触更多女性。那时我对两性差异产生了强烈好奇，甚至加入过一个主张男女平等的女权组织。后来当该组织转向敌视男性时，我选择了退出——我认为平等不需要通过贬低男性来实现。作为灵长类动物学家，我研究两性差异时总能引发大众兴趣，这种专业与个人背景的结合让我始终保持着对性别议题的探索。

Yeah, I think my curiosity about gender partly comes from that mostly male family that I had, and I also went to boys' schools in the beginning, so it's only when I went to college that I saw more girls. And I had an intense curiosity about that, about the differences between men and women. At some point I joined, as a student, I joined a feminist organisation to hear more about this, and this was an organisation that wanted to bring equality and involve both men and women. At some point that organisation became hostile to men and so then I left because I don't feel I need to reach equality by bashing men, but I wasn't part of that. But I was curious about it, so I've always been curious about sex differences and gender differences, maybe as a part of my background, and also because when as a primatologist I talk about sex differences, people are always very curious about it.

我注意到社会对性别生物学层面存在特殊好奇心，人们总是渴望了解更多。

I notice that people want to hear more about it. And so, I noticed that there's a certain curiosity in society about the biological side of gender.

确实有趣。那就从这里开始吧——不仅在人类中，在灵长类动物中，生理性别（sex）与社会性别（gender）的区别是什么？

Yes, interesting. So let's start there, what's the difference between sex and gender, not just in humans, but in primates?

嗯，性别（sex）是我们用来指代生理性别的术语，比如生殖器、激素、染色体。性别大多是二元的，虽然不完全是，但98%-99%是二元分化的，即男性或女性。在生物学中，它更多是由配子大小而非生殖器定义的。所以尽管中间类别非常复杂（某些物种中可能极其复杂），但生物学上对性别的定义相当明确。而社会性别（gender）是性学家约翰·莫尼提出的概念，他注意到有些人出生时是一种生理性别，却感觉自己不属于该性别，拥有不同的性别认同，这引起了他的兴趣。

Well, sex is a term that we use for the biological sex, like genitals, hormones, chromosomes. Sex is mostly binary, not entirely, but 90 eight-ninety 9% binary, male female. And in biology of course it's defined by the size of the gametes more than the genitals, you know. So sex is pretty well defined in biology, even though that intermediate category is very complex, it can get really complex in some species, I can tell you. And then gender is a term that John Money invented, a sexologist, who noticed that some people are born with one sex, but they don't feel like they belong to that sex, and they have a different gender identity, and he got interested in that.

性学家约翰·莫尼之所以发明'社会性别'这个术语，是因为他观察到有些人出生时是一种生理性别，但在幼年时期就开始感觉自己属于另一种性别。当时这类人群被贴上许多负面标签，如同性恋者、怪异或异常。莫尼希望用更友好、更科学的术语来替代，因此创造了'社会性别'一词。他认为社会性别关乎自我表达、身份认同以及所采纳的男性化或女性化行为习惯。因此社会性别的划分不是男女二元，而是涵盖从阳刚到阴柔之间的所有光谱。

And John Money, the sexologist, he invented the term gender because he had noticed that some people are born one sex, and then at a certain age, a young age, they start to feel like they belong to another sex. The other sex. And so he saw that there were lots of negative labels for these people, like they were weird or queer or abnormal, a lot of negative labels and he wanted to get around it. He wanted to have a friendlier, more scientific label for them and that's how he invented the word gender for it, And he said gender is how you express yourself, how you identify, what kind of habits, masculine or feminine, you adopt. And so gender is more divided not in male and female, but in masculine and feminine, and everything in between.

因此社会性别是比生理性别更灵活、更具可能性的概念。但莫尼后来陷入争议——他曾参与一个案例：因阴茎缺损而被当作女孩抚养的男孩。莫尼声称社会性别具有充分可塑性，但事实上这个孩子最终因极度痛苦而自杀。这表明莫尼过度夸大了社会性别的灵活性，并因此招致批评。

So gender is a much more flexible concept and has many more possibilities than sex. So John Money did that and at the same time he got into trouble because he had, he was involved in a boy who was raised as a girl because the boy had lost part of his penis and they started to raise the boy as a girl. And he claimed that that was all possible, that gender was so flexible that it would be a possibility, but you know, that child actually was very unhappy and later committed suicide. And so he had presented the flexibility of gender as a bit, he had exaggerated the flexibility of gender, and and so he got into trouble over that.

确实。这个故事很有意思，正如你指出的，它证明生物学因素确实重要。如果将生理性别视为98%-99%的男女二元（外加XXY、XYY等染色体异常情况），那么社会性别确实更具流动性。但通过你刚举的例子可以看出，这种流动性并非百分之百绝对。

Right. Yeah. That's an interesting story. It shows that biology does matter, as you pointed out on the So if we think of sex as being, you know, 98, 99% male, female with a few, chromosomal exceptions, x x y, x y y, and so forth. But gender is more fluid, but clearly with the example you just gave, it's not a 100% fluid.

人不可能随心所欲地选择性别，这并非完全由文化决定。根据现有科学认知，你认为人类和灵长类动物的社会性别究竟有多大的可塑性？

You can't just be anything you want. It's not totally cultural. So at the current understanding of science, how flexible is gender, do you think, in humans and then primates?

我认为社会性别始终与生理性别相关联。那些声称社会性别完全独立于生物学、纯属文化建构的观点，我并不认同——我们的性别二元性根本上源于生理上的两性分化。假设我们是无性繁殖的克隆物种，所有人都相同，恐怕根本不会产生社会性别概念。虽然社会性别是更灵活的概念（不同文化中性别表达差异巨大，比如沙特、印度、日本各有不同），但它始终以某种方式锚定在生理性别基础上。区分这两个概念很有必要，否则会忽略巨大的文化影响。

Yeah. Think gender remains always tied to sex. And so the people who say that gender is independent of that, is that as a cultural construct independent of biology, I don't believe that because we have a gender duality because we have two sexes mainly. And I think if we were a cloning species, let's say we had no sexual reproduction, we were all the same, cloning means that we are all sort of identical, I don't think anyone would have invented genders there. So the genders come about because we have sexes, and they always remain somehow tied to the sexes, even though gender is a much more flexible concept, and I agree that we need to make that distinction between gender and sex, because otherwise you forget about all the cultural influences that are there, which are immense, know, the two genders interact quite differently in this culture compared to, let's say, Saudi Arabia or India or Japan, and so each culture has its own way of expressing yourself, or clothing you or hairstyle and so on.

因此社会性别概念非常有价值，我认为它也适用于其他灵长类。例如黑猩猩16岁才成年，哺乳期长达五年，这段漫长的成长依赖期使其能充分模仿学习周围行为——这正是'猿类（ape）'一词的由来。年轻雄性和雌性会向成年个体学习行为模式，所以社会性别概念并不局限于人类物种。

So the gender concept is very useful and I think it's also useful for other primates. So for example, a chimpanzee is an adult when he's 16, meaning that there's a fairly long time, for example the nursing period is five years, there's a very long time of dependency and development and absorbing the behavior around you, because the apes are very good at aping, that's why we have that verb. They ape others, and young males and young females, they learn from adult males and adult females how to behave, and so I think the gender concept is not limited to the human species.

好的。那么让我们也区分一下你在性别上认同自己是男性还是女性，以及你被同性还是异性吸引？你对这些问题怎么看？

Right. Then let's also make a distinction between who you identify as male or female in the gender, and who you're attracted to, same sex or opposite sex? How do you think about those issues?

是的，这是完全不同的问题。人们有时会混淆变性者与性取向，这两者根本不是一回事。它们的共同点是形成时间都很早。我们从所有试图改变同性恋者的转化疗法中了解到，人们试图改变他们但显然无效，实际上那完全是场骗局。所以我们知道性取向和性别认同都在青春期前就已形成，基本上是不可逆转的。

Yeah, that's a very different issue. People sometimes conflate that, is the transgender, being transgender or sexual orientation, these are not the same thing at all. The thing that they have in common is that they arise very early. So we have learned that from all these attempts of conversion therapies with homosexuals, where people have tried to convert them and clearly that's not working and it's actually a scam, that whole thing. And so we know that both the sexual orientation and the sexual identity, they arise very early in life, before puberty, and they are basically irreversible.

这就是为什么我在书中说它们是先天性的，是你本质的一部分。我们不清楚具体是基因、激素还是大脑的作用，但对性别认同有些迹象表明与大脑有关——阿姆斯特丹的Dick Schwab的研究。但总体而言我认为这是先天性的，是你的一部分，不该试图改变。就像试图让左撇子改用右手，这类项目往往会造成灾难。虽然肯定有生物学因素参与，但我们不清楚具体机制。有趣的是LGBTQ群体在这方面接受了生物学解释，他们会说'我天生如此'。

So that's why I'm saying in my book they are constitutional, they are part of what you are. And we don't know exactly if it's genes or hormones or brain, we don't have a clear idea, but about gender identity we have some indications that's in the brain, by studies in Amsterdam by Dick Schwab, But in general I say it's constitutional, it's part of who you are and so you shouldn't be trying to change it. A bit like trying to change someone who is left handed into right handed, those are sort of disastrous projects, you know. And so it's important to, there is some biology involved, no doubt, but we don't know exactly what. And it is interesting that the LGBTQ community has embraced biology for that part, so they will say, I'm born that way, you know, that's how they say it.

但在其他性别议题上生物学完全不被接受。你看大学里的性别研究课程，就没有像我预期那样接纳生物学。这种矛盾与意识形态有关——在能证明'不可改变'的领域欢迎生物学，其他领域则不然。但我觉得无论如何生物学都该成为讨论的一部分。

But at other gender issues biology is not embraced at all. You know, if you look at the gender studies at the university, they have not embraced biology the way I think they should be. So there's a sort of ambivalence there, which has to do with ideology. It's like biology is welcome in that area because you can use it as an argument that you cannot be changed, and in other areas it's not welcome. But and I feel biology should be part of that whole discussion regardless, you know.

完全同意100%，你在书中提到Simon LeVey。我记得曾邀请他来加州理工演讲，你也来过。那时正是同性恋群体努力澄清'这不是生活方式选择'的时期。他们天生如此，因此应该存在某些生物标记。

Absolutely, a 100%, and you talk about Simon LeVey in your book. I remember I had him come speak for me at Caltech, you came spoke for us at Caltech too. And and he was this was at the time when there was this push by the gay community to make sure it's clear. It's a it's it's not a lifestyle choice. They were born that way, and therefore, should be some biological markers.

他展示了所谓'同性恋大脑'的研究，我记得是在海马体区域？对比直男和 gay 男性的脑部。他放了一张神经学幻灯片，展示同性恋和异性恋大脑的神经元差异。就在海马体这里，本应能明显看到巨大差异，但大家都在找：哪里？

And he had, you know, the gay brain, like and I was it the hippocampus where there were some Yeah. Straight men versus gay men? And he put this slide up, you know, like a neurological slide of neurons from a gay brain and a straight brain. I think it was in the hippocampus. You see, you can clearly see here this massive difference, and everybody's looking at like, where?

确实很难看出区别。

It's hard to see the difference, you know. Yeah. And it was like, Because

这些区域非常小，比如迪克·斯瓦普发现的性别认同区域，我觉得大概只有米粒大小。我是说，这些都不是大脑的大面积区域。所以仍然存在相当多的疑问。我不是神经科学家，但我认为我们对这些机制尚未达成共识，还有很多需要探索。但很明显它具有先天性——一旦形成，比如性别认同与出生性别不同，这种情况一旦出现，通常就不可逆转。

these areas are very small, like the one for gender identity that Dick Swap discovered, I think it's as big as a grain of rice or something. I mean, these are not big areas of the brain. And so there is still quite a bit of doubt, would say. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I don't think we are all in agreement of how these things work, and a lot needs to be discovered. But it is clear that it is constitutional in the sense that once it arises, let's say the gender identity is different from the sex you're born with, once that arises it, it very often is not reversible.

没错，从政治角度来说，正如你刚才提到的，比如在性别研究领域，生物学因素并不受重视。人们可以随心所欲地选择性别。我很多同性恋朋友对此很担忧。我们花了数十年反驳保守派所谓'这只是生活方式选择'的论调，他们还说我们选错了路，要帮我们'矫正'等等。那些全是胡扯，这就是我的本质。

Right, well politically this is, as you just noted, know, in gender studies departments, for example, there's not much emphasis on biology. You can be whatever you want. And I know that a lot of my gay friends are concerned about this. It's like we we spent decades arguing against conservatives who said we just made a lifestyle choice, and it was the wrong one, and they can help us convert and so on. But that was all bullshit that this is how who I am.

这是我的天性。我根本就不是选择成为同性恋的。对吧？而现在的主流论调却变成了'你可以成为任何你想成为的人'。这完全不对。

It's my constitution. I didn't choose to be gay at all. Right? And then now the emphasis seems to be, well, you can be whatever you want. It's like, no no no.

从政治角度看，这种论点大错特错。

Politically that's that's the wrong argument.

是的。正是这种对生物学的矛盾态度，我认为他们制造了理论混乱。其实应该把生物学纳入所有讨论中。这也是我写书的部分目的——通过观察近亲物种来展示如何做到这点。不过我不是神经科学家，在这方面帮不上什么忙。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So by by having this ambivalent attitude towards biology, I think they are creating a theoretical mess basically, and it's better to bring biology into all discussions. And that's part of the goal of my book is to show how you could do that by looking at our closest relatives, but I'm not a neuroscientist and so in that regard I cannot be of much help, you know.

对。就像同性恋保守派作家安德鲁·沙利文说的：如果一个13岁少年发现自己被其他男孩吸引，这时有人告诉他'可能你内心是个女人，所以才喜欢男性'。他的回应是：不，可能你就是个同性恋，这完全没问题。

Yes. But just just to make that point, like Andrew Sullivan, the gay conservative writer says that, like for example, if you're a young man, maybe 13 years old, and you find yourself attracted to other boys or other young men, and somebody comes to you and says, well, maybe you're secretly inside a woman. That's why you're attracted to men. And his response is, no. Maybe you're just a gay guy and that's okay now.

嗯。要知道，很多这类现象我们缺乏科学研究。有些孩子两三岁就出现早期性别焦虑，行为表现异常。但现在是青少年突然自认为另一性别，或非二元性别，这完全是新现象。

Uh-huh. And, you know, there's so so much of this is is that we don't have a lot of science on, you know, people that there there's the the the early gender use dysphoria at an early stage, like age two, three, four, five. They start act they they act differently. That's one thing. But there's this new phenomenon of teenagers, all of a sudden identifying as the other gender or somewhere in between or non non binary or or whatever.

人们的担忧在于，如果他们采取行动，但事实上这并不属于他们本质的一部分怎么办？如果这更像是一种社会传染现象呢？这是一些批评者提出的论点。而且我认为，我们对青少年大脑变化的科学认知还很有限。

And the concern is that if they act on it, what if it's not actually in part of their constitution? What if it's a social contagion kind of thing? This is the argument, that that some critics make. And, I think we just don't know a lot of science about what happens to the teenage brain.

是的，据我所知，以这种方式开始的跨性别群体只占非常小的比例。但我在灵长类动物中确实描述了性别多样性，这是一个有趣的补充——因为我们科学家通常寻找典型行为模式，描述典型的雄性和雌性特征。但如果你看得更深入，就会发现存在与众不同的个体。比如我在书中描述过一只名叫唐娜的雌性黑猩猩，她从幼年起就表现得像雄性。

Yeah, I think that's, from what I understand, a very small percentage of the transgender community that starts that way. But I do describe in the primates gender diversity, so that's an interesting addition in the sense that we scientists, we usually look for typical behaviour. We look for the typical male, the typical female, and we describe that. But if you look beyond that, you see individuals who are different. So for example, in the chimpanzees, I describe in my book a female named Donna, who from very young age onwards acted more like a little male.

她喜欢摔跤——雄性之间经常进行模拟打斗，而雌性较少这样。她热衷于此，并会主动寻求与成年雄性互动。有趣的是，成年雄性居然会和她玩耍（通常他们只和年轻雄性玩）。这是她与众不同的最初迹象。后来她长大后，变成了手掌宽大、头部硕壮、毛发浓密的雌性，外表更像雄性。远远看去你绝对会以为她是雄性。

She liked to wrestle, for example males wrestle, mock fight a lot more than the females. She liked to do that and she would seek out contact with adult males for that, and the adult males, curiously enough, they would play with her. Normally they play with young males, but they played with her. And so that was the first sign that she was different, and then she grew later, She grew into a robust female with big hands and a big head and a lot of hair, and she looked more like a male than like a female. From a distance you would swear she was a male.

她与雄性为伍，行为举止也像雄性。当然我无法询问她的自我认同，但谁知道她内心感受呢？显然这种性别多样性是存在的。我还描述过不玩雄性竞争游戏的雄性——它们不参与政治斗争，不争夺统治地位。我们既有表现出更多同性恋行为的个体，也有所有人类社会中可见的多样性。但我们灵长类学者过去忽略了这点，因为这类个体只占十分之一或二十分之一。

She associated with males, she acted like a male, and of course I cannot ask her identity, but who knows how she felt, you know? But clearly, we have that kind of gender diversity, I also describe males who don't play the macho game, who are not into politics and trying to become the dominant male, who stay out of all of that. So we have gender diversity, we have individuals, we also have individuals who show more homosexual than heterosexual behavior. So we have all that diversity that you see in human society, but we primatologists, we have not focused on that, we have sort of ignored it because it is only one in 10 or one in 20 individuals who are like that, and we have sort of ignored it. But the gender diversity that you see in human society, I don't think is completely unique.

这不是社会的产物，不是人类文化特有的现象。我认为这本质上是灵长类生物学的组成部分，是我们在灵长类动物中观察到的自然变异。

It's not a product of society, it's not a product of us being humans and being so cultural, I think it's part of primate biology, basically, the variability that we see in the primates.

是的。理查德·道金斯称这种现象为‘非连续性思维’或‘二元思维’的暴政。并非所有事物都非黑即白、二元对立。光谱是存在的——但这不意味着你可以随意选择自己的位置。我记得你描述的方式是...什么来着？

Yeah. Richard Dawkins calls this the tyranny of discontinuous thinking or binary thinking. You know, it's not everything is black and white and binary. There are spectrums, and that that doesn't mean the spectrum is you can be anything you want. You can have I think the way you described it was, what?

两个重叠的模糊集合，在边界和边缘地带可能存在交叉，而这种交叉应该是被接受的。

Two overlapping fuzzy sets where on the Mhmm. On the borders and the margins, there could be overlapping, and you that should be acceptable.

是的，在生物学中我们都知道，随便问哪个生物学家，个体差异才是关键，自然选择也是如此。你看一片森林——我现在正看着窗外的森林——同一树种的两棵树也可能截然不同。生物学中也常见个体差异。所以我们不该忽视这点，人类社会总倾向于制造必须适应的框架，但个体差异在生物学中无处不在。

Yeah, we know in biology of course, you talk to any biologist, individual variability is the game, and in natural selection. And so you look at a forest, I'm looking at the moment at my forest outside, you look at a forest and you see two trees of the same species and they are very different. We are used in biology too, individual variability. So we shouldn't gloss it over and we should not human society has a tendency to make boxes in which you need to fit, you know, but individual variability is is all over biology.

没错。那么谈谈黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩在生存或繁殖策略上的差异。为什么这两种不同策略会以这种方式进化？我们能从中学习到什么？

Yeah. So talk about the difference between chimpanzees and bonobos as as what different survival or reproduction strategies. Why would those two different strategies have evolved that way, and what can we learn from that?

是的，我们尚不清楚原因。倭黑猩猩是和平且雌性主导的。这种雌性主导是集体性的——单个雌性无法支配雄性。比如多年前我在圣地亚哥动物园工作时，他们饲养的一对倭黑猩猩（一雄一雌）中，雄性就占主导地位。

Yeah, we don't know that. The bonobo is peaceful and female dominated. The female dominance is collective dominance. An individual female cannot dominate a male. So if at a zoo, for example, when I worked at the San Diego Zoo long ago, they had a group with one male and one female, bonobo, in that case the male was dominant.

只要引入第二只雌性，雌性群体就会占据主导。这种雌性主导是集体行为，意味着雌性需要维系彼此纽带——它们互相梳理毛发、发生性关系。倭黑猩猩的性行为多为雌雌交配，它们拥有发达的阴蒂，可能使这种行为更愉悦。理查德·兰厄姆等学者认为，倭黑猩猩能在野外维持这种生活方式是因为其生态与黑猩猩不同：它们栖息地没有大猩猩竞争，可以独占包括地表植被在内的整片森林（这些植被通常会被大猩猩吃掉），因此能保持群体聚集，而黑猩猩为获取足够食物必须分散活动。这种聚集性使雌性能建立'姐妹会'般的紧密关系，这对黑猩猩雌性而言则很困难。

As soon as they added a second female, the females were dominant. So the dominance of females is a collective dominance, which means that the females need to work on their bonds and maintain their bonds and groom each other and they have sex together. A lot of the sex in bonobos is female female sex, they have a big clitoris, which probably helps make it a pleasurable affair for them, and so that's the bonobo, and we think that it's possible for bonobos to live this way in the wild, because their ecology is somewhat different from the chimpanzee. So these are ideas of Richard Wrangham, for example, that bonobos don't have competition from gorillas, there's no gorillas in their area, and so they can have the whole forest for themselves, including the ground vegetation, which normally the gorillas would eat, and as a result they can stay more together, and they travel together, instead of spreading out like the chimpanzees need to do in order to get enough food. So bonobos can stay more together, which allows the females to have this bonding, this sisterhood thing going, which for the chimpanzee females is gonna be difficult because they need to spread out.

所以生态差异是这种思维模式的来源之一。

And so that's one of one of the sources of thinking is the ecology is different.

有意思。但我们总忍不住要比较哪种更好，仿佛这些生物差异能对应某种政治意识形态。

Interesting. Right. And but again we always look to these like well which is the better one to be as if there was a political ideology that you can map onto these biological differences.

确实，人们常这样想。如我所说，女性可能倾向倭黑猩猩模式，男性更认同黑猩猩模式。但我觉得无需二选一——这两种模式对人类行为都具有重要启示。

Yeah. Yeah we we want to think like that, but I think, as I said, I think women go for bonobos and men often go for chimpanzees, but I feel we don't need to make a choice between the two. Find them both very instructive about human behavior.

不过你会听到这样的说法：如果由女性而非男性来治理国家，世界会变得更好。然后你会看到普京光着膀子骑在马背上的照片。你知道，那种阿尔法男性、大男子主义的形象，正是你帮助普及的术语，而普京现在似乎成了这种形象的典型代表。这种形象看起来并不是什么好榜样。

Well, but you hear things like, the world would be better if women were running countries rather than men, And or or then you'll see a picture of Putin, you know, shirtless on horseback. And, you know, that's that alpha male, macho male, alpha male which you help popularize as a term that, you know, Putin seems to be the paradigmatic example of that now. And that seems to be like, that's not a good way to be.

但在新冠疫情期间，人们经常对男女领导人进行比较。我认为像博索纳罗和特朗普这样的男性领导人在疫情期间表现得并不高效。所以女性领导力在人类社会中是完全可行的。如果你观察其他灵长类动物，会发现大量雌性领导的例子。所有灵长类都有雌性等级制度，雌性和雄性一样具有等级性，尽管心理学教科书常把男性描述得比女性更等级化。

But, you know, in the COVID crisis, people have made these comparisons between male leaders and female leaders. I don't think the male leaders like, let's say, Bolsonaro and Trump, they come off as extremely effective during the COVID crisis. And so female leadership is entirely possible, also in human society, would say. And if you look at the other primates, there's plenty of female leadership. All the primates have a female hierarchy, females are just as hierarchical as males, even though in psychology textbooks often the men are described as more hierarchical than women.

我不认同这种观点，因为在所有灵长类中雌性都有等级制度，存在阿尔法雌性。在其他灵长类中，雌性领导力并不罕见。

I don't believe that, because in all the primates the females have a hierarchy, they have an alpha female. A female leadership is really not hard to find in the other primates.

我们总是在寻找经验教训，也许没必要这样。要知道，我们人类这个物种本身就具有巨大差异性，有时女性领导者很出色，有时男性领导者也不错，这取决于具体情况。这太复杂了。比如安格拉·默克尔就做得很好。

Well, again, we're always looking for lessons. Maybe we don't need to do that. You know, we're we're our own species and with great variability, and so sometimes women leaders are fine, sometimes men leaders are fine, it just depends. It's so complex. I mean, Angela Merkel did just fine.

德国历史上任期第二长的总理。那么我们来谈谈进化论中的适应主义。我们常会想：X有什么好处？X的目的是什么？

Germany's longest well, second longest leading chancellor in in its history. So let's talk about adaptationism in in in evolutionary theory. You know, we often think of, well, what good is x? What's the purpose of x? You know?

但当你遇到这样的问题：为什么男性有乳头？为什么女性有阴蒂？它们有什么目的？你在书中稍微讨论过这个问题，能否再展开讲讲？

So but when you run into things like, well, why do males have nipples or why do females have clitorises? What's the purpose? And you talk about that a little bit in your book, so expand on that a bit.

嗯，关于阴蒂，15到20年前曾有过一场辩论，我记得是哲学家伊丽莎白·劳埃德发起的，认为阴蒂是多余的器官。她说我们之所以有阴蒂，是因为男性有阴茎，这有点像男性的乳头。

Uh-huh. Yeah, the clitoris, there was a debate fifteen years, twenty years ago, I think it was initiated by Elizabeth Lloyd, the philosopher, that the clitoris was superfluous. We didn't need the clitoris. We have a clitoris, she said, because the males have a penis. It's basically a bit like the male nipple.

所有灵长类雄性，包括大猩猩在内，所有雄性都有乳头，但他们并不需要这些乳头。它们之所以存在是因为雌性需要乳头。这就是当时人们对阴蒂的看法，斯蒂芬·杰伊·古尔德支持这一观点，并称阴蒂是'辉煌的意外'。如今我们掌握了不同的信息：首先，我们知道从老鼠到大象，所有哺乳动物都有阴蒂。

All the primate males, including gorillas, everybody, all the primate males have nipples, but they don't need them. They have them because females need nipples. So that was the thinking about the clitoris at the time, and Stephen Jay Gould supported that thinking and he called the clitoris a glorious accident. Now, we have now different information, you know? First of all, we know that all mammals, from the mouse to the elephant, they have a clitoris.

解剖学研究还表明，阴蒂与阴茎拥有同样多的神经末梢，并有非常粗大的神经为其服务，因此来自阴蒂的信息显然非常重要——这就是为什么会有如此发达的神经分布。实际上阴蒂比当时人们认为的进化程度更高、更重要，与雄性乳头完全不可相提并论。最大的阴蒂出现在人类等动物身上，但倭黑猩猩的更大，而海豚的阴蒂最为硕大。在具有丰富额外情色行为的动物中（这些行为不一定以繁殖为目的，也涉及社交活动，如倭黑猩猩和海豚），阴蒂往往特别发达。因此对阴蒂的认知已经改变：阴蒂是雌性的快感器官，其重要性不亚于雄性的阴茎，可以说性快感是社会生活的重要组成部分。

We also know from anatomical studies that the clitoris has as many nerve endings as the penis, and has very big nerves that service the clitoris, so the information that comes from it is apparently very important, that's why we have big nerves serving it. So the clitoris is actually much more evolved and important than people assumed at the time, it's not really comparable with the male nipple. And the biggest clitoris is found in animals, like humans, have a big clitoris, but also bonobos is even bigger, and the biggest one is in the dolphin. The clitoris is big in animals that have a lot of extra eroticism, not necessarily focused on reproduction, but focused also on social life, like in the bonobo and the dolphin. So the vision of the clitoris has changed, and the clitoris is a pleasure organ for the female, just as important as the penis is for the male, so to speak, and sexual pleasure is an important part of social life.

我们不仅改变了对这个器官的看法，也在整体上改变了对雌性性行为的认知。这一转变始于对鸟类（不仅是灵长类）的研究，我们发现雌性会与多个伴侣交配，而不仅是与共同筑巢的雄性。如今雌性性行为已被视为比二十年前认知中更具进取精神、冒险性和主动性的行为。

And so we are changing the view of that part, but we are also changing the view of female sexuality in general. This started with work on the birds, not just the primates, but on bird studies where we found that females have sex with multiple partners, not just with the male they are building a nest with, and so now the view of female sexuality has changed. We see female sexuality as much more enterprising and adventurous and proactive than we did twenty years ago.

没错，我觉得存在这样一种谬论：认为女性只是接收男性精子的容器，所以她们只需躺着让男性行事。这种观点相当粗陋且不准确。

Right, yeah, I think that there's this myth that women were just receptacles for male sperm, therefore they just have to lie there and the guy just does his thing. Well, this is, you know, pretty crude and inaccurate.

是的，这属于维多利亚时代的观点。尽管达尔文现在被指责有种族主义和性别歧视等问题，但他是最早提出性选择理论、指出雌性在择偶过程中非常主动的学者。达尔文没有让雌性在其理论中完全被动，而是赋予了主动角色——这已是重大突破，不过和当时大多数维多利亚时代的人一样，他仍持有男性优越论等观念。

Yeah, it was a sort of Victorian view. Darwin was one of the first, even though Darwin is now being blamed for being racist and sexist and so on, but Darwin put women, or let's say females, on the map by saying that there was sexual selection and that females were very active in there in making the selection. And so Darwin, instead of giving females a completely passive role in his story, he gave them an active role. So that already was a difference, but he thought like most Victorians at the time I think, he still thought in terms of male superiority and so on.

对，你引用了戴维·巴斯和他合著者（我一时想不起名字）的《女性为何发生性行为》这本书，对很多人来说真是大开眼界——原来女性和男性一样会出于各种原因发生性行为。

Yeah. Yeah, you cite David Buss's book and his co author, I forget her name now, Why Women Have Sex, think was the name of the book. That was a real eye opener for a lot of people. Like, you mean women have sex for a whole variety of reasons like men? Yeah.

无聊、好奇、报复等等，而不仅仅是'我想生孩子，所以选择你这个男人'。

Boredom, curiosity, revenge, and so forth. Not just, you know, I wanna have a baby, so you're the man.

是的。但在这方面非常有趣的是莎拉·哈迪的理论，她，

Yeah. But very interesting in this regard are the theories of Sarah Hardy, who,

她

who

提出了理论，是的，她关于为何雌性与多个雄性交配的理论——因为原则上雌性黑猩猩本只需与一个雄性交配几次就能受孕。那为何她们会主动寻找多个雄性并频繁交配？莎拉·哈迪对此的解释与杀婴行为有关：为避免杀婴，雌性需要让多个雄性认为自己是近期交配对象，从而抑制这种行为的产生。

has theories about, yeah, she has theories about why females have sex with more than one male, because in principle of course a female chimpanzee, she would need to have sex only with one male and a few times, and she would be pregnant. So why does she seek out lots of males and has lots of sex with them? And Sarah Hardy has ideas about that, which relate to infanticide. To avoid infanticide, the female needs to have a lot of males who consider her a recent sex partner, and that prevents some of that behavior.

哦对，找到这个引用了。辛迪·梅斯汀（抱歉我忘了她的名字）和大卫·巴斯的研究显示，动机包括'想取悦男友'到'我们无事可做'，'好奇他在床上的表现'。令人震惊的是，在二十一世纪的今天，科学才终于意识到女性像男性一样拥有自己的动机和行为差异。

Oh yeah, found that reference. Cindy Mestin, sorry that, I forgot her name, Cindy Mestin and David Bus. Okay. Yeah, some of the reasons range from I wanted to please my boyfriend to we had nothing else to do, I was curious how he'd be in bed. And, it's astonishing that, you know, here we are in the twenty first century and it you know, it's like science is finally getting around to recognize, oh, women are actually have their own motives and they have their own variations of their behaviors just like men.

为什么花了这么长时间？

Why did it take so long?

是的，我认为转折点是鸟类亲子鉴定研究。人们总把一夫一妻制的鸣禽视为理想典范，直到巢中鸟蛋的亲子鉴定发现部分蛋来自不同雄性。科学家们的第一反应很有趣——他们认为雌鸟肯定是被外来雄性强暴了，因为他们无法想象其他可能性。而现在我们知道，许多雌鸟会主动寻求与其他雄性接触。这个颠覆性发现最早来自鸟类而非灵长类。

Yeah, think the dam broke when we did paternity testing on the birds. So you have monogamous birds, songbirds, and they were always held up as an ideal, like don't we want to live like the songbirds, male, female, children, you know, perfect life, and then people started to paternity test the eggs in their nest and found that some of these eggs were from a different male. And the first reaction is interesting, the scientists' first reaction was, the females must have been raped by extra males, outside males. So that was their reaction, because they couldn't imagine it otherwise, until of course now we know that many of these females, they seek out contacts with other males, they are actively involved in it. And so I think that was the first finding, so it was not in the primates, was in the birds.

如今在灵长类研究中，随着更多女性学者加入（从1960年代简·古道尔开始），我们的领域发生了变化。现在灵长学界的女性可能已超过男性。研究视角从聚焦雄性等级、支配和暴力，转向关注母性行为、亲属纽带网络，以及雌性择偶权——雌性可能完全无视雄性等级制度，因为在她们眼中，最具支配地位的雄性未必最有吸引力。

And now in the primates of course I describe how our field changed when we got more women involved and this started with Jane Goodall and people like that in the nineteen sixties, but now we have of course in primatology probably more women than men. And the perspective changed, instead of focusing on the male hierarchy and male dominance and violence and so on. The women were interested in maternal behaviour, in bonding and kinship networks, and in female choice, sexual choice, females choosing their own partners. So they might ignore, for example, the male hierarchy. The most dominant male was not necessarily the most attractive male in the eyes of the females, you know.

我认为女性灵长类动物学家极大地改变了这一领域，现在我们有了更全面、更平衡的灵长类社会视角。

So I think female primatologists have changed the field tremendously, and now we have a much more, I think a much more balanced view of primate society.

是的，这很好地论证了科学界需要多样性。仅仅让不同性别的人进入你的领域就能带来不同视角，他们会提出不同问题。比如医学界在这方面反应就很迟缓——当主要由男医生给女性开男性剂量的药物时，这根本行不通。生理构造、体型等因素都不同。

Yeah, it's a good argument for diversity in science, just having somebody of a different gender in your field brings a different perspective. They ask different questions. I mean, even medicine was pretty slow to come around on that. With mostly male doctors prescribing to women male doses of meds, it just doesn't work that way. Different physiology, body size and so on.

这就是为什么NIH现在对此有规定。NIH要求，如果你想用老鼠等动物研究某种医学现象，实验对象必须保持性别平衡。过去人们可能不用雌鼠，因为它们有生理周期很麻烦，或者会怀孕让人感觉不便。

That's why NIH now has rules about that. NIH says, if you want to do a study on a certain phenomenon in medicine using rats or mice or whatever, you need to have a gender balance between them. They need to be of different sexes. In the old days, people would maybe not use female rats because they go through cycles and inconvenient, you know, or they would get pregnant and they felt it was inconvenient.

你提到强奸，这是进化心理学圈的热门话题，尤其当《强奸的自然起源》出版时。这又回到了适应主义论点——强奸是作为适应性行为进化的吗？所以它存在于基因中就像是被原谅的？还是其他事物的副产品？

Yeah. You mentioned rape, that's a hot topic in evolutionary psych circles, at least it was when that book, The Natural Origins of Rape came out, Randy Thornhill and his colleague. Anyway, so that was back to that adaptationism type argument. Did rape evolve as an adaptation, therefore, it's in our genes as if to excuse it? Or is it a byproduct of something else?

它只与性有关吗？是权力问题？还是性、权力与控制的结合？你怎么看？

Does it have to do with just sex? Is it power? Is it sex and power and control? How do you think about that?

那本《强奸的自然史》我完全不喜欢，它试图将强奸解释为适应策略。首先需要证明存在与强奸行为相关的基因，即强奸者在基因上与常人不同——这从未被证实。还需证明强奸能增强男性繁殖成功率——同样未被证实。实际上人类社会很多强奸受害者是老年女性、幼女或男性，这些根本与繁殖无关。我为《纽约时报》写书评时问道：原始社会会如何对待强奸者？

Yeah. That book, I didn't like that book at all, The Natural History of Rape, trying to explain rape as an adaptive strategy, because you would need, first of all, there would need to be genes involved in raping behavior, so rapists would have to be genetically different from non rapists, so to speak, and that has never been demonstrated. And you would have to demonstrate that raping enhances reproduction of a male, which also has not been demonstrated. And a lot of the rape, of course, the rapes that occur in human society, are with women who are too old, or girls who are too young, or sometimes male to male rape, and so there's quite a bit of rape that is not reproductive at all. So, I asked when I reviewed the book, I reviewed that book for the New York Times, I asked, How would a small scale society react to a rapist?

想象一个年轻人强奸他人，原始社会会如何反应？我认为绝不会是正面的。人类学家Kim Hill用数学方法分析了狩猎采集社会，指出强奸者要么被驱逐，要么被女方亲属杀死，要么失去所有朋友。即使有后代，女方也很可能弃养。如果这是种好策略，为什么在灵长类中如此罕见？

You know, if there's a young man who rapes somebody, how would a small scale society react? And I didn't think it was going to be a positive reaction, and then Kim Hill, the anthropologist, he wrote a long article with a mathematical approach, based on his knowledge of hunter gatherer societies, saying that these men who raped, are not going to do very well because they will be either kicked out of the society, or the relatives of the woman would kill them, or they would lose all their friends, or the woman abandons the child, if there is a product, a reproductive product, she would abandon it probably. So he had all sorts of arguments why a rapist would not do very well. And if I look at the other primates, which is of course the goal of my book is to compare with other primates, rape is extremely rare. If it was such a great strategy, why wouldn't it be common?

我们知道猩猩会实施性侵，但这基本上是唯一有大量相关数据的物种。人们总是拿猩猩举例，但在200种灵长类动物中，性侵行为普遍的物种并不多。黑猩猩中这种行为极为罕见，虽然雄性对雌性存在不少暴力行为，但性侵并不常见，我们通常称之为强迫交配。而倭黑猩猩则完全排除了这种行为，因为雌性主导群体，她们绝不会容忍这种行为。所以我们两种近亲中，性侵都不是常见行为，属于非常罕见的现象。

So, orangutans we know rape, but that's basically the only species for which we have a lot of data on that. They always trot out the orangutan as an example, but that's, of the 200 primate species, there are not many where rape is common. And so in chimpanzees it's extremely rare, there is quite a bit of violence by males against females, but rape is not really part of that, forced copulation we call it usually. And in bonobos it's completely excluded, it's not possible because the females dominate the scene and the females will not accept that kind of behavior for sure. So in our two closest relatives, rape is not common, it's a very rare behavior.

如果这真是如此高效的繁殖策略，那为什么它不普遍存在呢？

So if it was such a great reproductive strategy, why wouldn't it be common, you know?

那为什么人类会有这种行为？这是控制欲或权力欲的副产品，还是人类文化导致的？是父权文化的产物吗？

So why does it happen at all? Is it a byproduct of something else, control or power, or is it just something humans do because of culture? Is is it a patriarchal cultural thing?

是的。人类的问题之一是我们形成了核心家庭模式，倾向于分散居住。当然并非所有文化都如此，但现代社会中各家各户的居住方式增强了男性对女性的控制。比如疫情期间居家隔离时，家暴事件增加，我敢说性侵事件也增多了。实际上多数性侵都发生在熟人之间，施暴者往往是丈夫、兄弟等家庭成员而非外人。

Yeah. Humans, one of the problems with humans is that we have nuclear families who tend to live in separate areas. That's of course not true for all people in the world, but nowadays we have a house for this family and a house for that family, and that enhances male control over females. So during the COVID crisis, for example, when we were all locked up in these houses, domestic violence increased, and I bet rape increased as well. So one of the things that happens is rape is very often done by familiar partners, not by outsiders, but by the husband or brothers or whatever.

我认为我们的家庭结构和居住模式助长了男性控制欲，同时使女性难以寻求帮助。比如当倭黑猩猩雌性遭遇雄性骚扰时，只需发出尖叫就会得到其他雌性相助；圈养黑猩猩群体中我也多次目睹，若雄性在求偶时过于纠缠，雌性会获得群体支持，她们会联合起来驱逐雄性，让其明白这不是好策略。而人类的家庭模式反而让家暴更容易发生。

Our family arrangements and living arrangements stimulate male control, I think, and make it impossible for women to get help. So for example, a bonobo female who is harassed by a male, she only needs to give a loud scream and there will be females there who will help her and chase the male away, and in chimpanzees in captivity for sure, I've seen that many times, in captivity if a male is too insistent in a sexual context, the female will get support from other females, and the females altogether will change, 10 of them will go after the male, and he will learn that this is not a good strategy for him. So I think our family arrangements don't help the situation, you know, they make domestic abuse more easier. Right,

这可能是现代文化的副产品，人口密集却又相互隔离，为某些男性提供了可乘之机。说到灵长类与人类中两性暴力行为的差异，平克常强调暴力行为首要预测因子就是雄性性别。但正如你所说，女性并非完全被动，只是她们表达支配欲或报复行为的方式与男性不同。

sort of a byproduct of modern culture maybe, huge populations, more isolation, more opportunities for Mhmm. That as a strategy for some men, I guess. So talk about then the difference between male and female aggression, violence, homicide, and so on in primates and humans, there does seem to be certainly a difference. Pinker is fond of saying the number one predictor of of violence is maleness, at least physical violence. But, you know, as you point out, if if you it's not that women are are just passive, they just have different ways of expressing their attempts at dominance or aggressing against somebody that that wrongs them.

她们只是采取了不同的方式。

They just do it in a different way.

是的，灵长类动物中存在大量雌性竞争。非常多，非常多。所以那种认为雌性彼此友善、相处融洽的观点全是无稽之谈。雌性可以拥有高度的团结性，比如倭黑猩猩雌性，这主要是为了对抗雄性攻击。因此竞争很激烈，但雄性攻击是她们都一致反对的，她们想要阻止这种行为，并且确实这么做了。

Yeah, there's plenty of female competition in the primates. Plenty, plenty. And so that idea that females are nice to each other and get along fine, that's all nonsense. Females can have high levels of solidarity, like the bonobo females, and that's mostly directed against male aggression. So there's plenty of competition, but male aggression is something they all agree on, they want to stop, and that's what they do.

但雌性竞争非常普遍，只是较少涉及肢体冲突。这是与雄性的区别所在。雄性倾向于进行身体对抗。因此，如果要指出灵长类中普遍存在的两性差异之一，那就是雄性在肢体暴力方面比雌性更甚。例如，最近有项研究公布了152例野生倭黑猩猩和黑猩猩致命攻击事件的数据。

But female competition is very common, but it's less physical. That's the difference with the males. The males tend to physically compete. And so male violence, if you want to mention one difference between the genders that is universal in the primates, male violence is higher than female violence, in terms of physical violence. And if you look at the numbers for chimpanzees for example, recently there was a study published on 152 cases of lethal aggression in wild bonobos and chimpanzees.

在这152个案例中，只有1例涉及倭黑猩猩，而且还是个疑似案例，甚至未被直接观察到。因此倭黑猩猩显然比黑猩猩更平和，这是肯定的。第二点是，分析这些案例会发现，绝大多数是雄性对雄性的攻击，人类社会也是如此。虽然我们高度关注男性攻击女性的事件，但若统计人类社会的谋杀案，男性之间的凶杀比男性对女性的更为普遍。因此在暴力模式和性别偏向上，黑猩猩与人类社会的数据具有高度相似性。

Of these one hundred and fifty two cases, only one concerned bonobos, and that was a suspected case, was not even observed. So bonobos are clearly more peaceful than shepherdsies, that's for sure. The second thing is that if you look at these one hundred and fifty two cases, it's mostly male to male, male against male, and this is true for human society too. Of course we pay a lot of attention to men attacking women, physical violence by men, but it is mostly, if you look at the murders in human societies, it's male to male, it's more common than male to female. So the figures actually for chimpanzees in human society are very similar in many ways in terms of the violence and the bias, the gender bias is very similar too.

所以，这似乎是我们在黑猩猩中发现的、两性之间与生俱来的差异。

So yes, that seems to be a built in difference between the sexes that we find, at least in chimpanzees And and

从进化角度来说，为什么必须存在暴力？为什么男性需要攻击其他男性？

why does there need to be, from an evolutionary perspective, why does there need to be violence at all? Why do men need to aggress against other men?

雄性会争夺资源，而最主要的资源就是雌性。其他资源相对次要，他们争夺的是交配权。过去在DNA检测技术出现前，我们认为阿尔法雄性几乎垄断了所有交配机会，因此几乎所有的后代都来自它们。我曾亲历DNA检测技术兴起的时代，这改变了我们的认知。比如在研究恒河猴群时，表面上看阿尔法雄性会与所有雌性交配，人们便认为它是所有幼崽的父亲。

Well men compete over resources and the main resource is females. Other resources are sort of secondary I think, but they compete over matings. And there used to be the view, you know, before we had DNA testing, we had the view that alpha males do almost all the copulations and so alpha males have almost all the children. That's how we looked at it. It's interesting, I lived through the time that DNA testing came up, and we started to change the picture, because we found in, for example, rhesus monkey groups that were studied at the time, If you watch the group, you see the alpha male copulates with all the females, and you assume that he must be the father of all the children.

但DNA检测显示，许多幼崽的父亲其实是年轻雄性、不知名雄性或低等级雄性。雌性会在夜间、灌木丛后或阿尔法雄性视线之外，主动安排与低等级雄性的交配。这就是雌性选择权的体现。虽然公开场合下雌性与阿尔法雄性交配，但私下还有许多其他情况。如今我们对此有了新认识，但高等级雄性仍比低等级雄性拥有更多后代。我们认为雄性如此激烈竞争的原因在于：具有竞争倾向的个体会获得更多后代，这些后代（尤其是儿子）会继承同样的竞争特质。

But if you look at the DNA, you find that there's lots of younger males and less known males, or lower ranking males, who are fathers of children. And so what happens is that at night, or behind the bushes, or behind the back of the alpha male, the females arrange for copulations with lower ranking males. So that's where female choice comes in. The females have a big say about with whom they copulate and yes, the public copulations are with the alpha male but there's all sorts of other stuff going on. So now we have a different view of that, but still the highest ranking male has more offspring than lower ranking males and that's why we think the males compete so much, is that males who have that competitive tendency, they will have more offspring, they will have more sons, and these sons inherit that same tendency.

没错。低等级雄性动物的这种行为不就是所谓的‘卑鄙交配策略’吗？

Right. Isn't that called the sneaky fucker strategy by the lower ranking males?

是的，从雄性角度来看可以称之为狡猾策略，但从雌性角度同样存在大量隐蔽行为。

Yeah, would be from the perspective of the males you can call it sneaky but from the females also there's a lot of sneakiness.

确实很有意思。但需要强调的是，这其中不仅关乎生存。人们常误解自然选择的目标——不是生存本身，而是不惜一切代价让基因延续到下一代。

Yeah, that's too funny. Yeah, so but much of it, again, involves not just survival. People misunderstand the goal of natural selection. It's not survival. It's it's getting your genes into the next generation, whatever that takes.

生存与繁殖，且不仅是繁殖，还包括活到足够久以确保后代成年并生育。这就引出了你提到的祖母假说，我们还可以探讨为何同性恋会进化存在？这看似不像是自然选择会发展的策略，但它确实存在。这与祖母假说类似——同性恋兄弟姐妹可以充当替代父母或家族成员，通过血缘关系来支持基因延续。

Survival and reproduction, and not just reproduction, but but being around long enough to get your offspring into adulthood so that they can have children. So that gets us to the grandmother hypothesis you talk about, which we can also throw in the, why did homosexuality evolve at all? It doesn't seem like a strategy natural selection would have have developed, and yet yet there it is. So there is something there's a similar hypothesis to the grandmother hypothesis, right, that that a homosexual sibling can act as a surrogate parent or an extended family member to support genetic offspring through their sibling, something like that. So talk about that a little bit.

关于同性恋进化的问题，其前提是认为同性恋与异性恋存在明确二分法——这本身就不成立。金赛博士不认同这种划分，我也持怀疑态度。最新研究显示多数男性基本是异性恋，但同性恋倾向并未在异性恋群体中完全消失。我们不应将世界简单划分为同性和异性恋，否则就会陷入困惑——比如许多同性恋男性也有子女，说明他们曾与女性发生关系。

Yeah, the question of how homosexuality evolved is driven by the idea that there is a clear dichotomy between homosexual and heterosexual, which is not clear. Alfred Kinsey didn't think it was there, and I doubt it. Most recent analysis that I've seen, they say that most men are mostly heterosexual. What they mean is that homosexual tendencies are not completely disappeared from the heterosexual people. And so, I don't think we should divide the world into homosexual and heterosexual because then yes, it becomes a puzzle, because there are many homosexual men for example who have children, so they have had sex with women and so on.

所以我认为这是个错误命题。人类是追求快感的性生物，这有时会与我们明显的同性别社交需求混合——男性与男性交往，女性与女性交往。当这两种需求交织时，就会在其他领域产生快感追求，比如男男或女女关系。因此追问‘同性恋如何进化’本身就不恰当，这预设了同性恋与异性恋男性之间存在基因鸿沟，而这点从未被证实。

So I think it's the wrong question. I think humans are pleasure seekers and sexual creatures and sometimes this mixes with the intersex bonding that we clearly have, men bond with men, women bond with women, and if these two things get mixed, you get pleasure seeking in other domains, like in male male relationships or female female relationships. So I think it was the wrong question, the question of how homosexuality evolved, because it assumes some sort of genetic divide between homo and heterosexual men, which no one has ever demonstrated, so I'm not sure it's the right question.

有意思。那么回到祖母假说。

Interesting. And then the grandmother hypothesis.

是的，有趣的是年长雌性会帮助自己子女的后代，也就是她们的孙辈，而且主要是母系这边。克里斯汀·霍克斯提出更年期正是因此进化而来。人类进化出更年期，让女性停止生育后仍能长期存活，以便帮助孙辈。现在我们知道某些虎鲸和其他鲸类也有更年期，所以这并非人类独有。但在其他灵长类中，比如珍·古道尔在贡贝研究的著名雌猩猩弗洛，情况就不同。

Yeah, it's interesting that older females help out with the offspring of their children, so their grandchildren, and mostly on the maternal side. And Kristen Hawkes has of course proposed that menopause evolved for that reason. Menopause evolved in the human species, so that women stopped reproducing, but they could still, they lived a long time after reproduction ends, in order to help their grandchildren. And we now know that in some orcas and other whales this also happens, that they have menopause too, so it's not unique to humans. But in the other primates, you you may see a chimpanzee female like Flo, the famous female studied in Gombe by Jane Goodall.

这些雌性黑猩猩会不断生育，直到身体无法再承载幼崽——当它们背上的未成年后代变得又大又重时，就真的背不动了。我认为它们本可从更年期受益，但它们会一直生育到生命尽头。所以人类的不同之处在于，我们在生育期结束后仍能存活很久。

These chimpanzee females, they keep going and going till they basically cannot carry the babies anymore, so they have a juvenile sitting on their back who is getting big and heavy and they cannot really carry them anymore. So they would benefit I think from menopause but they keep going till the very end. So I think humans are different in that we survive long after the end of reproduction.

没错，在我某本书的研究中曾探讨：为何人类会死亡？为何不能持续生存并不断支持子女、孙辈乃至曾孙辈？答案似乎是祖父母能发挥有益作用，但曾祖父母在曾孙辈的养育中基本已无用处。家族支持体系已足够完善，不再需要他们，因此考虑到有限资源等因素，自然选择会计算出：只需让个体存活到其子女成年、孙辈成年即可。

Yeah, for one of my books I was researching why we die and why can't we just keep going and going and going and keep supporting our offspring and their offspring and their offspring. And the answer seems to be grandparents serve a useful role, but great grandparents have largely fallen into disuse in terms of their great grandchildren's upbringing. There's enough family support that they're no longer needed, and and therefore, you just need more room for and and and limited resources and so on, just not needed anymore. So natural selection sort of does the calculation that we need to keep the organism alive long enough for their offspring to become adults and then those offspring to become adults and then you're done.

确实如此。但我也强调雄性也有照料倾向，这点很重要。因为当今社会（不知你是否注意到），保守派会嘲讽陪产假，认为产假合理而陪产假没必要，他们的观点是男性无需照顾孩子。有时这还被用作生物学论据，声称男性天生不适合照料后代。正因如此，我必须指出：在黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩中，雄性明显具备养育能力。虽然通常不表现出来——通常雌性承担携带、喂养、保护幼崽等几乎所有工作——但当出现孤儿时（比如母亲死亡），有时雄性会突然收养幼崽。

Yeah, yeah. But I also emphasize the caring tendencies of males, and this is important because in the present society, I don't know if you've noticed, people mock paternity leave, the conservatives, think maternity leave makes sense, but paternity leave doesn't make sense because men don't need to take care of children, that's their view. And sometimes that is used as a biological argument, like men are not made to care for children and offspring. And for that reason I find it important to point out that in the primates, in chimpanzees and bonobos, males have clearly a nurturing capacity. So even though normally they don't express it, normally the females do almost everything with the carrying, feeding, protecting the offspring, If there is an orphan that happens, that a mother loses her life and all of a sudden there's a juvenile chimpanzee who needs care, then all of a sudden sometimes males adopt them.

野外观察记录中，有不少成年雄性（甚至包括首领雄性）收养孤儿的案例，且不止收养两天，有时会长达五年。它们会背负、保护、协助进食等。这些平日不参与育幼的雄性，在关键时刻会展现出照料倾向，我称之为潜能。人类的不同在于进化出了核心家庭，男性参与度远高于黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩。我们物种能繁衍到80亿人口的原因之一，就是男性参与使生育间隔从黑猩猩的5-6年缩短到人类的3-4年——正是男性的家庭参与造就了我们的繁衍成功。

And so there are quite a few observations in the field of adult males, sometimes even alpha males, high ranking males, who adopt an orphan, and not just for two days, they adopt them for five years sometimes. They carry them, they protect them, they help them eat and so on. And so, even these males who normally don't do much in this regard, they have caring tendencies that come out at such a moment. I call it a potential. And the human species is different because we evolved nuclear families, and clearly the males are more involved in our species than in Chimsoppenobusen, and one of the reasons we populate the earth with 8,000,000,000 people is because male involvement has allowed us to reduce the inter birth interval from five to six years, what it is in chimps and bonobos, to three or four years, what it is in our species, and so that's why we are so successful is because of the male involvement in families.

是的，我妻子来自德国，那里有相当完善的产假和陪产假制度。我在企业工作，也会休陪产假——不只是为了空闲时间，更是因为关心后代。我有两个孩子。

Yeah, yeah, my wife's from Germany and they have a pretty advanced program for maternity leave, but also paternity leave. I would take it. I work for a corporation, and not just because I want free time. It's like because I would care about my offspring. I have two I have two children.

比如在对待儿子方面，我的感受和我妻子完全一致。怎么可能不一样呢？那种‘男性无需投入同等时间’‘他们感受不同’的观点实在太奇怪了。

I feel the same way that my wife does about our our son, for example. Why would it be otherwise? You know, that's just such a weird attitude. Like, well, men don't need to spend as much time. Well, they don't feel the same.

我亲眼目睹了这一点，你知道，在离婚法庭上，在我父母五十年代末离婚的那个年代。我母亲获得了主要监护权，而我每隔一周的周末才能见到父亲。现在回想起来，这太荒谬了。我父亲当时一定心碎欲绝，因为他对孩子的感情和我一样深切，男性对子女的情感与女性并无二致。

And I saw that with, you know, in in divorce courts where in the battle days, my parents were divorced in the late fifties. So my mom got primary custody and I saw my dad every other weekend. And and, you I look back on that. This is absurd. My dad must have been heartbroken because he feels the same way as I feel, and and men feel the same way as women feel about their offspring.

这简直太野蛮了。

That's just so barbaric.

是的。在这方面仍然存在相当多的歧视。基于那种认为生物学决定了女性照顾孩子而男性不需要的假设。但我认为年轻一代正在明显改变这种观念。

Yeah. In that regard, there's still quite a bit of discrimination. Yeah. Based based on the assumptions, the assumptions that our biology dictates that women care for children and men don't. And I think with the younger generation this is clearly changing.

变革正在明显发生，如果你观察其他灵长类动物，会发现它们也有同样的倾向。雄性具有关爱后代的天性和能力。

There are clear changes underway, and I think if you look at the other primates you can see that they have that same tendency. The males have a caring tendency and capacity.

既然你提到这个，另一个敏感的政治议题就是核心家庭。保守派声称这是自然规律，而另一端的极端分子则反对说'不，养育孩子需要全村之力，不需要核心家庭'。

Another one of these hot button political issues is the nuclear family since you mentioned that. Conservatives say, well that's natural and extremists on the other side say, no. No. It takes a village. You don't need a nuclear family.

对此你怎么看？无论是人类还是其他灵长类动物？

And how do you think about that, in humans and other primates?

我认为在人类中，核心家庭是进化而来的。它不一定是一男一女加孩子的结构，可能有其他形式，但男性参与后代抚养——正如萨哈·哈迪所说，人类在某种程度上属于合作繁殖，多个个体共同参与后代养育。因此我认为在这方面人类与黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩有所不同，因为后者的幼崽几乎全部由雌性照料。除了可能保护幼崽外，雄性几乎不参与抚养，除了我提到过的收养孤儿的情况。所以我们有些与核心家庭相关的独特倾向。

I think in humans, nuclear families evolved. They were not necessarily one male, one female, children, it could have been a different arrangement, but male involvement in offspring care, you know, humans are, as Saha Hardy says, their cooperative breeding in a way is that many individuals are involved in the raising of offspring. So I think in that regard humans are a bit different from chimps and bonobos because in chimps and bonobos the females do almost all of it. Apart from protecting the young, which the males may do, they don't do much with them, except one does an orphan, as I explained. So I think we have some unique tendencies that relate to the nuclear family.

我认为生物学上并没有明确的描述告诉我们核心家庭应该是什么样子的。我不确定我们能否断言这一点。

I don't think there's a clear description from biology that tells you what the nuclear family should look like. I'm not sure we can say that, you

确实。但在我们人类物种中存在一种配对结合的本能。

know. Right. But there is a sense of pair bonding in our species.

是的，很明显我们会坠入爱河。关于这方面有很多有趣的催产素研究，人们恋爱时催产素水平当然会上升。虽然我在其他灵长类动物中观察到雄性对某些雌性有偏好，雌性对某些雄性也有偏好，但从未见过它们之间存在我称之为'坠入爱河'的过程，然后配对并自我隔离，我认为这是人类特有的现象。这与我们倾向于形成核心家庭的特性有关。

Yeah, we have clearly, we fall in love, for example. There's all sorts of interesting oxytocin studies on that, oxytocin goes up of course when people fall in love. And even though I see in the other primates that males have certain preferences for certain females and certain females for certain males, clearly you can observe that, I've never noticed a process that I would call falling in love between them and pairing off and isolating themselves, I think that's a human thing. So this one that relates to our tendency for the nuclear family, I think.

是的，我很喜欢费希尔关于这方面的著作，催产素和其他一些化学物质如多巴胺，在恋爱时会急剧升高。这与单纯的性吸引力不同，更像是情欲与长期深厚感情的区别，大脑化学物质略有不同，但这种力量极其强大。就像上瘾一样，一旦被击中就难以自拔。她有数据显示，有些人一旦依恋上某人就完全无法放手，这种情感具有压倒性的力量。

Yeah, I liked Fisher's books on this, oxytocin and some of the other chemicals, dopamine, that go way up when you're in love, and difference between being just sexually attractive is is kind of a lust versus a longer term deep deep, affection for somebody, different slightly different brain chemistry, but that it's super powerful. It's like an addiction. I mean, you get hit by it. She has these, you know, data sets of, of people that just once they attach to somebody, they just can't let go. And I mean, it's just an overwhelmingly powerful emotion.

是啊，然后还会出现跟踪狂这类人。

Yeah, then you get the stalkers also.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, yes, that's right.

没错。所以这也有负面的一面。

Yes. So there's a negative side also.

是的，是的，他们无法放手，对吧，确实如此。顺便说一句，海伦说过，高潮的目的与情感联结有关。她甚至说，一个能让女性达到高潮的男人，她会留在身边，对吧。她会更加依恋他，或与他建立更深的情感纽带。

Yes, yes they can't let go, right, exactly. By the way Helen says that, the purpose of orgasm is is is related to bonding. Like she even says, know, a man that could give a woman an orgasm, she's gonna stick around, right. She's she's gonna be more attached to him or more deeply bonded to him.

没错，我认为高潮对女性间的情感联结、男女间的情感联结都完全说得通。让性爱对双方都愉悦，这基本上就是其作用，非常有道理，所以是的，我相信这其中存在功能性的一面。

Yeah, think orgasm makes perfect sense for female female bonding, for male female bonding. To make sex pleasurable both sexes, that's basically what happens, it makes a lot of sense and so yeah, there's a functional side to it I'm sure.

九十年代那场辩论有什么依据吗？我记得是精子战争辩论，讨论存在不同类型的精子——一种是试图到达卵子使其受精的精子，另一种是战士精子，负责对抗可能存在的其他男性的精子。他们还讨论了阴茎的形状，说头部更像是一个塞子，用来阻止精子流出。而女性高潮时的阴道收缩是为了将精子吸入子宫等等。但我很久没关注这些了。有些内容听起来像编故事，但不知道是否有人重复过那些研究。

Is there anything to that debate back in the nineties, I think it was the sperm wars debate where there was different kinds of sperm, the sperm that wants to get to the egg to fertilize it, and the other little warrior sperms that fight off some other man's sperm that might be in there. And then they had all this stuff about, like, the shape of the penis, but the head is more of a plug to keep the sperm in there. And then the female vaginal contractions during orgasm are to kinda suck the sperm up into the uterus and stuff. But I haven't looked at any of that in a long time. Some of that had a sense of just so storytelling, but I don't know if there anybody replicating any of those studies.

嗯，最近没怎么听说这个了。他们称之为神风特攻队精子。

Well, I don't hear much about it anymore. It was kamikaze sperm, they called it.

对，没错。神风特攻队精子。

Right. That's right. Kamikaze sperm.

所以这听起来很神奇。就像《星球大战》，不过是精子层面的，你知道。我不太了解这个。是啊，是啊。

So it it sounded wonderful. It sounded like Star Wars, but then at the the sperm level, you know. I don't know much about that. Yeah. Yeah.

是啊，我也没再跟进这个。但这种感觉，再次说明，配对结合是一夫一妻制——你看这些辩论也过于简化了。一夫一妻制是常态吗？一夫多妻制是常态吗？

Yeah. Haven't followed up on that either. But that but that, you know, sense of, again, pair bonding is monogamy see here are these debates, too overly simplified. Is monogamy the norm? Is polygamy the norm?

如果不是一夫一妻制，我是说如果一夫一妻制是常态，那为什么人类历史上有这么多一夫多妻制社会呢？

If it's not monogamy, I mean if monogamy is normal, how come there's been so many polygamous societies in human history and so forth?

是的，我认为当今人类社会的一夫一妻制更像是一种理想状态，而非现实。如果要问我人类是否属于单配偶物种？我认为有大量证据表明我们比那更具冒险精神。在生物学中我们常区分基因单配性和社会单配性——基因单配指所有后代都来自同一对配偶，社会单配则指大部分后代来自同一对配偶，但并非全部。

Yeah, I think monogamy in human society at present is more like an ideal, it's not necessarily the reality. And if you ask me, is the human a monogamous species? I think there's plenty of evidence that we are more adventurous than that, you know. So in biology we often distinguish genetic monogamy and social monogamy. Genetic is when all the offspring come from the same pair, Social monogamy is most of the offspring comes from the same pair, but not all of it.

我认为对许多动物而言，社会单配性比基因单配性更普遍。我没深入那场辩论，因为我更关注行为发育中的性别差异。比如我想研究幼年灵长类动物的游戏行为——令人惊讶的是，它们与人类儿童（无论男孩女孩）有着相似的游戏偏好。雌性对幼崽表现出强烈兴趣，给它们玩偶时会悉心照料，在野外甚至会抱着木棍石块当玩偶。雌性个体在成为母亲前就表现出对育婴的强烈兴趣，而雄性则完全无感。

And I think for many animals it's more social than genetic. So yeah, I didn't get into that debate because I was looking more for the gender differences in behaviour and development, and so one of the things I wanted to look at, for example, is games that young primates play. It's actually very striking how young primates have similar interests and games as young humans, boys and girls. So for example, the females are very interested in infants, and if you give them dolls, they are very interested in dolls and will take care of them, and in the wild they collect wooden logs and rocks and hold them as dolls on them, on their body. Young females, long before they are mothers, they're very interested in infants and caring for them, and the young males have basically no interest in that.

雄性幼崽则热衷于打闹嬉戏、模拟战斗、互相追打。人类儿童研究也记载了相同倾向：雌性更关注育婴，雄性更喜欢被称为'粗野游戏'的打闹行为。这正是我想探究的、在灵长类和人类中普遍存在的差异类型。

And the young males are very interested in roughhousing and mock fighting and running around and beating each other over the head in fun. That's what the young males do all the time. And if you look at human society, the studies on children, they document the same interest, that females are more interested in infants and infant care, and males are more interested in rough and tumble play, it's called. So I think that's the sort of differences that I wanted to explore that seem to be universal in the primates and in humans.

确实。我六岁儿子去Target超市玩具区时，会完全忽略粉色女孩区那些玩偶。有时我拿起玩偶问'你要找这个吗'，他就用看疯子的眼神看着我——他只想要卡车、飞机那些玩具。

Right. I have a six year old son, so when I take him to Target to go to the toy section, he just blows past the girl's pink section with all the dolls and stuff. And sometimes I'll pick one up and go, is this the one you're looking for? And he looks at me like I've completely lost my mind. You know, he wants the trucks, the cars, the planes, and so on.

但我女儿反应截然不同。既然这种现象也存在于灵长类，就说明不能简单归咎于蓝粉色的文化教养方式。

But I have a daughter who responded quite differently. So and the fact that it happens in primates means it can't just be a blue pink cultural thing of how I've raised my children, how people raise their children.

不，灵长类确实存在这种先天倾向。当然存在个体差异，就像人类儿童中偶尔会有喜欢枪的女孩和喜欢玩偶的男孩。你提到的粉蓝色确实是文化产物——测试18个月大幼儿时，男孩会更关注汽车图片，女孩更关注玩偶图片，但颜色对他们没有影响。

No. So so I think the primates have this inherent interest. There is variability of course, just as in human children, you will have occasionally a girl who wants a gun, you will have a boy who wants a doll, I'm sure you're going to have that, but you mentioned the colors, pink and blue. The colors are a cultural product it seems. So if you test very young children, like 18, I think it's 18 they tested children, and you show them pictures and so on, the boys will look more at cars and trucks, and the girls will look more at dolls, but the color doesn't matter to them.

蓝色和粉色并不重要。这是后来才形成的观念，因此人们认为这是一种文化产物，而不是男孩女孩与生俱来的特质。当我们给男孩穿蓝色衣服并为此感到高兴，觉得这是在顺应文化时，我认为这纯粹是文化产物。男孩们穿粉色也同样会很快乐。

Blue and pink doesn't matter. That comes in later and that's why people think that is a cultural product, that's not something they are born with as boys and girls. So when we dress our boys in blue and are very happy that we do that and feel very confirming the culture and so on, that's purely a cultural product I think. The boys could also be dressed in pink and they would be perfectly happy I think.

没错，你看19世纪末的照片，像西奥多·罗斯福这样的名人，小时候也是穿着小裙子的。

Right, you see these pictures in the late nineteenth century of people like Teddy Roosevelt, you know, dressed in a little dress when he was a, you know, a young child.

是啊。现在有些人可能会说你这是在扭曲他的性别认知，或者让他感到困惑。

Yeah. Nowadays, peep people might say that you are perverting him or you're you're confusing him.

嗯，我不觉得...

Yeah. I don't think it

这些事其实没那么令人困惑，但人们总是小题大做。

was so confusing these things, but people make a big deal about it. Yeah.

在这个问题上你愿意走多远？比如男孩可能对事物更感兴趣，女孩对人更感兴趣，因此几十年后选择职业时，女性更倾向于选择与人打交道的工作，男性则更倾向于与事物打交道的工作——当然存在大量例外和重叠的钟形曲线分布。

How far are you willing to go with that in this terms of, like, boy may boys, males are interested in things and girls are more interested in people, and there therefore, later, decades later, when they choose careers and professions, women are more likely to go into people oriented jobs, and men are more interested in things oriented jobs, again, with lots of exceptions, overlapping bell curves, and so on.

确实有可能。我不是儿童发展专家，不确定这些倾向有多强烈。作为灵长类动物学家，我持怀疑态度。比如黑猩猩使用工具的研究表明，雌性在使用工具方面略优于雄性。一种可能是她们确实更擅长使用工具，当然这是可能的。另一种常被提及的解释是，雄性总是忙于关注周围的一切：竞争、性和权力斗争。

Yes, is possible. I'm not an expert on children, I don't know how strong these tendencies would be. If you ask me as a primatologist, I'm a bit skeptical, because the studies of chimpanzee tool use, for example, indicate that females are slightly better than males at tool use. And one possibility is that they are better at tool use, of course, it's possible. Another possibility that is often mentioned is that males are too preoccupied with everything that happens around them, competition, sex, politics.

他们对此非常专注以至于无法集中精力完成手头的任务，比如用石头砸坚果或其他正在做的事情。所以这是个注意力问题，而非智力问题。不过无论如何，我没有在其他灵长类动物中发现雄性比雌性更具技术性的证据。

They are very preoccupied preoccupied with that and so they don't concentrate enough on the task at hand of cracking nuts with stones or whatever they are doing. So that's a concentration problem. So then it's not a mental capacity problem, but a concentration problem. So, but anyway, I don't see in the other primates evidence that males are more technological, so to speak, than females.

有意思，好吧。这可能

Interesting, okay. That could

可能是我们文化造成的假象，你知道吗？

could be an artifact of our culture, know?

嗯。嗯。甚至研究方式也是如此。回到刚才说的，嗯。要知道，直到最近几十年，灵长类动物学家和人类学家绝大多数都是男性，对吧？

Mhmm. Mhmm. Even how it's studied. Again, back to this Mhmm. You know, primatologists and anthropologists were all mostly men until just the last few decades, right?

所以嗯...考虑到它们的栖息地正在缩小，这些天然的灵长类环境究竟还能保留多少？在动物园研究动物根本不一样，对吧？就算像埃默里大学那样的灵长类研究中心，也和野外考察完全不同。

So Mhmm. And to what extent are these natural primate environments even available anymore given that, you know, they're in size? You know, if you study an animal in a zoo, that's just not the same. Right? Or even like your primate center you have at Emory University, not quite the same as, you know, going out into the wild.

对吧？那么你认为...是的。我们确实在灵长类研究中发现...

Right? So how do you think about the Yeah. We we do know in primatology.

就智力而言，我毕生都在研究动物智能。我对动物智能的文献了如指掌，不仅是灵长类，而关于性别差异的研究非常少。如果差异显著的话...

As far as mental capacities are concerned, I've worked all my life on animal intelligence. I know the literature inside out of animal intelligence, not just the primates, and there is very little on sex differences. If they were prominent, if

那里

there

如果有显著的性别差异，我相信人们会报告出来，因为那是个有趣的细节，比如说男性在这方面比女性强得多之类的。但你并没有看到这些现象，我也从未注意到。在我们进行的所有智力测试中，比如电脑触屏测试这类项目，确实有非常聪明的个体，但两性中都有，我认为这并没有系统性差异。所以我从不相信心智能力存在性别差异。确实存在一些与心理旋转能力或人类早期词汇量等相关的认知差异，但随着男女教育机会均等，我认为大多数这类差异已经消失，关于能力差异的讨论也越来越少。

were prominent sex differences, I'm sure people would report them, because that's an interesting detail, to say the males are much better at this than the females or something like that. But you don't see these things, and I've never noticed. I've had, in all the intelligence testing that we did, for example, this computer touch screen and that kind of stuff, we have brilliant individuals, but they are both sexes basically, I don't think there's a system to it. And so I've never believed in mental capacity differences. There are a few related to, let's say, mental rotation, you know, or in humans early vocabulary, so there are a few of these cognitive differences that we notice, but I think most of them have evaporated when the education for boys and girls became the same, And hear less and less about that kind of difference in capacity, know.

对人类来说确实如此，我认为对其他灵长类动物也是如此。

And certainly for humans, but I would say also for the other primates.

是的，是的。据我所知，男性和女性在平均智商测试分数上完全没有差异。似乎存在一个变化范围，男性的钟形曲线比女性的略宽一些。所以就像人们说的，男性中天才更多，蠢材也更多，但我不确定这个理论是否...

Yeah, Yeah. As far as I know, men and women don't differ at all on average IQ test scores. There seems to be a variation range, right, that the bell curve for men is slightly wider than the bell curve for women. So as they say, more geniuses, more dunces of men, and I don't know if that theory is gonna

我听过关于分布尾端不同的论点，但我不是这方面的专家，也不确定这个结论有多可靠。

I've hold argument, heard that the tails are different, but I'm not an expert on that and I'm not sure how sure we are of that.

是的，是的。不过回到动物智力的话题，它们毕竟不是人类。要知道，它们与我们有着数百万年的进化差异。我们凭什么认为它们能操作电脑屏幕上的符号，并以此作为了解它们大脑的依据？它们是在完全不同的环境中进化而来的。

Yeah. Yeah. But but back to animal intelligence, it seems again, they're not they're not us. They're, you know, they're millions of years different from us. Why would we think they could, you know, manipulate symbols on a computer screen and that indicates something that we need to know about their brains, they evolved in a different environment.

是的，

Yeah,

是的。虽然其中一些测试很有趣，比如关于黑猩猩尤马的数字测试表明，即使数字在200毫秒内消失，它仍能记住它们的位置。所以真正有趣的不是数字本身，而是它展现出的瞬间记忆能力似乎比人类更强。我同意让它们在电脑屏幕上数数与它们日常行为并无关联这一点。

yeah. Yeah, although some of these tests are interesting, because for example, the test with a Yuma, the chimpanzee, and the numbers has shown that if the numbers disappear within two hundred milliseconds, he still remembers where they were. So it is not so much the number business that's interesting, it's the flash memory that he has that seems to be better than that of humans that is interesting. So, yeah, agree that having them count things on a computer screen that doesn't relate really to anything that they do normally. Right.

但我们在触屏测试中有时会进行面部识别，比如表情或面孔分析。我认为这与自然行为相关，因此是个重要的测试方向。

But what we do sometimes on the touch screens is we do face recognition for example. So facial expressions or faces, and I think that relates to natural behaviour, so that's an important thing to test.

灵长类动物会把情绪表现在脸上吗？人类确实如此，所以这会是...

Do primates wear their emotions on their faces? Humans There's and therefore that would be a

丰富的情绪表达。过去人们常说人类面部肌肉最发达，因为我们需要比其他物种表达更细腻复杂的情绪。但五年前对黑猩猩尸检时发现，它们面部肌肉数量与人类完全相同。正如预期，黑猩猩在生理上几乎与我们一致。它们拥有和我们同等丰富的表情表达能力，能做出许多微妙的表情。

lot of emotional expression. You know, people used to say that humans had the most muscles in the face, because we need to express subtle emotions and more emotions than other species. But when five years ago people analyzed post mortem the face of a chimpanzee, and looked at all the muscles, they found exactly the same number as in humans. As you would expect, chimpanzees are almost identical with us physically. So they have as many expressions of possibilities for expression as we do, and they have a lot of subtle expressions.

它们既有夸张的表情——就像我们哭泣大笑时那样，同时也具备大量细腻微妙的表情。

They have very flamboyant expressions like we also do when we cry or laugh and things like that, but they also have a lot of subtle expressions.

那灵长类的语言能力呢？它们在多大程度上能像人类这样交流？语言似乎确实是人类的专属能力。虽然我知道比如大猩猩可可，还有苏·萨维奇-鲁姆博在TED演讲中展示过黑猩猩打手语的视频。当时所有人都盯着看，明显能看出黑猩猩在比划，但人们还是质疑...

What about language in primates? You think about to what extent they can communicate anything remotely like we can. It does seem to be a thing special to humans. Although I know there's, you know, like, Coco the gorilla, and I think it was one of the TED talks that I think it was Sue Savage Rumbaugh had I think it was her and she had the the video of the chimp signing. And again it was like this, you can clearly see the chimp is signing this and everybody's looking at like, you sure that's

嗯。

Mhmm.

这真的是我看到的东西，还是你在暗示我这就是我应该看到的？

Is that really what I'm looking at or are you priming me telling me this is what I'm supposed to be seeing?

是的，我写了这本书《我们是否足够聪明到能理解动物的智慧》，书中我梳理了所有关于灵长类和人类等的认知研究。我认为人类与其他物种之间唯一可辨识的差异——因为从认知角度我们与许多其他物种非常相似——就是语言。我认为语言非常特别，它是一种后天习得的符号化交流方式，甚至不是与生俱来的。

Yeah, so the, I wrote this book, Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are, in which I go over all the cognitive studies in primates and humans and so on. And the only difference in that book that I recognize between humans and other species, because I think cognitively we are very similar to many other species, is language. I think language is really special. It's a learned symbolic communication. So it's not even, you're not even born with it.

你必须学习语言中的词汇，而且它是符号化的。我在其他物种中没发现这点。例如，一只黑猩猩与同类打架后，第二天遇到同伴时，它无法解释发生了什么、是谁做的、也无法描述任何细节。这与我们人类物种形成巨大反差——我们能谈论视线之外、不在场或不同时空的事物，这赋予了我们难以置信的交流可能性。

You have to learn the words of your language, and it's symbolic. And I don't see that in other species. And so for example, a chimpanzee who has been in a fight with somebody, and the next day he meets his friends, he cannot explain what happened and he cannot explain who did it and what the sir, he cannot explain anything about it. Well, that's a huge difference with our species, we can talk about things that are not in view, that are not here and not at the same time. And so that gives us possibilities for communication that are just incredible.

我甚至不是在讨论诗歌或图书馆，而是最基本的事实：我能向你解释别处发生的事情。语言影响深远，它渗透在我们所有行为中，甚至塑造了我们的思维方式。其他差异我认为都是次要或程度上的区别。

I'm not even talking about poetry or libraries, I'm not talking about those things, I'm talking about the very basic fact that I can explain something to you that happens elsewhere, you know? So I think language is a big deal, and of course it permeates everything we do. Also our thinking, our thinking is shaped to some degree by language. So that's a big difference. All the other differences I consider minor or shades of grey, basically.

关于语言为何或如何进化，你有相关故事或理论吗？是单一基因突变？还是多种因素组合？

Do you have a story or a theory about why or how language evolved? Is it a single genetic mutation? Is there a combination of things?

绝不可能是单一突变导致的，这太复杂了。我们不仅不知道语言如何进化，甚至不清楚其出现时间——虽然可以研究文字语言，但那明显是后期发展。比如我们何时开始说话仍是个谜，有人推测始于手势而非发声，这就是手势语言假说。有趣的是黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩与我们有许多相似手势。

It cannot be just one mutation that does that. It's too big for that. So I don't know how it evolved and we don't even know when it evolved, because of course we may look at written language, but that's clearly a later development, written language. And so, I don't know when we started to speak, for example, and some people have speculated that it started with gestures, it didn't even start with the voice. It's the gestural language hypothesis, and in that regard it's interesting that chimps and bonobos have many similar gestures to us.

例如它们会这样乞食——举起手就像我们饥饿时的动作。它们与我们共有许多手势，因此语言可能始于手势交流，语音能力是很晚才发展出来的。

So for example, they can beg for food like this, they hold up their hand and they beg for food like we do when we're hungry, we hold up the hand. So they have many gestures in common with us. And so maybe it started with gestural language, and and and speech came on much later.

是的，甚至更晚才出现文字。我是说，尼安德特人可能已经有语言了，对吧？那大约是50万到100万年前的事。但文字只有...嗯，公元前3300年左右，所以大约5000年历史。

Yes, and written even later still. I mean, Neanderthals may have had language. Right? So that's half a million to a million years ago. But writing is only, what, 33,000 3,300 BC, so about 5,000 years old.

你知道吗，我正和我儿子经历这个过程。我并没有教他说话，什么都没做。他就是自己学会的，仅仅通过听别人说话。

You know, I'm just going through this with my son. Know, I I didn't teach him to speak. I didn't do anything. He just learned it. Just just listening to people.

但现在他正在学习读写，天啊...这简直是每天数小时的巨大工程，而且要持续好几年。这完全不是自然而然的事。

But now he's learning to write and read and it oh, man. This is, you know, a massive effort every day for hours and this is gonna take years. Like that is not natural.

是啊是啊。关于尼安德特人，我确信他们会说话。尼安德特人总是被污名化，说他们愚蠢而我们聪明。但我们越研究越发现，他们几乎和我们一样，甚至可能...好吧确实和我们通婚了，现在我们知道现代人体内有尼安德特人DNA。所以对我来说，他们不可能没有语言。他们还有艺术，可能还有音乐，他们就像人类一样，与我们非常接近。

Yeah, yeah. So Neanderthals, I'm sure they spoke. So Neanderthals always get a bad rap, you know, the Neanderthals were always stupid, we were so smart and they were stupid and the more we learn about them, they are almost identical to us and they probably inter, well they interbred with us, we know that now, We have Neanderthal DNA in us, so for me that's inconceivable that they would not have language. They had art also, they had probably music, and so, yeah, they were like humans, very close to us.

是啊。弗兰兹，我们聊了快一个半小时了。我想请你做个总结性概述。我很喜欢这本书，时机也完美，因为我们最新一期《怀疑论者》杂志正好是关于跨性别议题的。

Yeah. Well, Franz, we've been going almost an hour and a half here. I wanna give you a chance to kinda give us the big overview. I love the book. It's the perfect timing because, you know, our latest issue of skeptic is on trans matters.

这可是个大话题。跨性别者、性别问题等等。

This is huge. Transgender. Oh. Sex, all this stuff.

好的。

Okay.

这出现在每日新闻中，所以请给我们总结一下核心观点。从你的书中我们将学到什么？关于如何思考这些问题？

It's in the daily daily news and and so so give give us kind of the take home message. What is it we we we are gonna learn from your book and in terms of how to think about these things?

我认为你学到的是不能将生物学从性别问题中剥离。这不是纯粹的文化问题，它有与我们灵长类背景相关的生物学成分。遗憾的是我无法简化这个问题——如果你观察黑猩猩和倭黑猩猩，会发现灵长类背景很复杂，因为我们看到不同的行为模式，既有雌性领导也有雄性领导，性别概念同样适用于它们，它们也像我们一样受到文化影响。因此基于灵长类动物的表现，我无法给出关于性别问题的简单答案，尽管存在某些核心差异——比如雌性对幼崽的兴趣或雄性对争斗的倾向，这些是普遍差异。但我的主要观点是强调性别辩论必须包含生物学视角，当我们讨论性别多样性时，如同性恋取向或跨性别者。

Well, I think what you learn is that you cannot remove biology from the gender question. It is not a purely cultural question, it has a biological component that relates to our primate background. I can unfortunately not simplify things, so the primate background, if you look at chimpanzees and bonobos, is complex, because in the primates we see different behavior, we see female leadership, male leadership, and gender is also applicable to them, they have cultural influences too, like we do. And so I cannot provide a simple answer to the gender question based on what the primates show us, even though there are some core differences that I think we see in all the primates, in us and in them, such as female interest in infants or male interest in combat, know, those are sort of general differences. But my main point is to emphasise that the gender debate needs to include biology, and that when we talk about gender diversity, like homosexual orientation or transgender people.

我们讨论的并非人类独有的现象，我认为同样的多样性也存在于其他物种中。所以虽然没有简单答案，但显然需要将生物学纳入讨论。

We are not talking about a uniquely human phenomenon, I think that same variability can be found elsewhere. And so, there's no simple answer, but clearly biology needs to be put into the debate.

感谢你阐述这些观点。我们确实需要这样的讨论。最后想请问：灵长类学的未来如何？这个领域的资金状况怎样？

Well, you for doing that. We definitely need that. Just to kinda wrap it up and say thank you, for all your your work. What is the future of primatology? How's the funding for it?

这些物种的现状如何？比如倭黑猩猩、黑猩猩、红毛猩猩和大猩猩的野外生存状况？你对它们的未来持乐观态度吗？

What's the status of the species, you know, bonobos, chimps, and orangs in the wild and gorillas? Know, are you hopeful for for that?

年轻科学家们充满热情。有很多优秀的年轻学者希望研究灵长类。资金是有的，但不算充裕，这个领域曾经获得过更多资助。当然存在灵长类从野外消失的隐忧，它们正面临威胁，因此许多野外灵长类学者必须同时开展保护工作，不能只做行为科学研究。

Yeah. Think there's a lot of enthusiasm by young scientists. So we have a lot of good young scientists who want to be involved with the primates. There is funding, but it's not massive, I think funding has been better for that field than it is now. There is of course the worry that many primates will disappear from the wild, they are under threat, and that's why many of the fieldworker primatologists, they need to work on conservation at the same time, they cannot just do their behavioural science, they get involved in conservation also.

未来是存在的，年轻一代的热情显而易见。我认为仍有大量工作要做，希望研究能持续下去。在认知研究方面，许多课题需要结合神经科学，我们需要发展非侵入性神经科学技术。希望我们不会重蹈覆辙进行大脑切除这类实验。我们需要建立像人类研究那样的非侵入性技术——通过扫描仪观察心理过程，这种技术也需要为灵长类开发。

So the future is there, and the enthusiasm of the younger generation is clearly there, and I think there's a lot to do still, so I hope it continues. And then with the cognitive studies, I think many of them need to include a little bit of neuroscience, so we need to develop non invasive neuroscience. I hope we're not going to do the things that we did in the past of cutting out parts of the brain and things like that. We need to have a non invasive neuroscience the way we have that for humans too. We can put humans in a scanner and look at their mental processes that way, and I think we need to develop something like that for the primates as well.

好的，你在埃默里大学那位给狗做脑部扫描的同事叫什么名字？Gregory。

Alright, who's your colleague at Emory that does brain scans on dogs? Gregory.

对，是Greg Burns。Burns。

Yeah, that's Greg Burns. Burns.

Greg Burns。对，Greg Burns。

Greg Burns. Yes, Greg Burns.

是的，他训练狗进入扫描仪，实际上法国等地的一些灵长类研究所也在训练猴子做同样的事。这样就能进行无创神经科学研究了。没错。

Yeah, he trains dogs to be in the scanner and actually there are some primate institutes like in France, know one, where they are training monkeys to be in the scanner. So then you get noninvasive neuroscience going. Yeah.

有意思。那会非常吸引人。是啊。看黑猩猩或倭黑猩猩执行类似任务——比如在小键盘上按键，通过小电视屏幕做选择——然后比较它们和人类的大脑活动，这研究肯定很精彩。虽然训练它们可能有难度，但既然能训练狗，训练倭黑猩猩或黑猩猩应该也没问题。

Interesting. That would be fascinating. Yeah. Would be fascinating to see chimps or bonobos doing those same kind of tasks where they're pressing keys on a little keyboard and they have a, you know, a little TV monitor that they can see choices to see if how their brains compare to ours. I would think that would be difficult to train them, but if you can train a dog, you could certainly train a bonobo or a chimp to do it.

没错，这个领域现在有各种创新。比如眼动追踪技术就很重要，能精准定位黑猩猩或倭黑猩猩在屏幕上的注视点。这些技术目前都在快速发展，相关设备已经完全跟得上研究需求了。

Yeah, there's all sorts of innovations now going on in that field. For example, eye tracking is a very important area now because you know exactly on the screen where the chimp or the bonobo is looking. So all of that is being developed at the moment. The technology is up with that field, yeah.

好的。很棒。那么弗朗兹，我们就到这里结束吧。非常感谢你的著作，感谢你的研究工作，也谢谢你来节目做客交流。

Right. Good. Alright, that's a good place to end it, Franz. Thanks so much for your book, thanks for your work, thanks for coming on the show to talk.

谢谢。多谢。

Thank you. Thanks.