001 Daniel "Oxota" Dvoress - Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客，我是埃利奥特·罗和特里西亚。

Welcome to the mindset advantage podcast with Elliot Rowe and Doctor.

特里西亚·卡纳。

Tricia Cardner.

这是我们第一期节目，先来互相做个介绍吧。

It's the first of our episodes and we'll just start by introducing ourselves.

特里西亚，你先跟大家聊聊你自己吧。

So Tricia, just tell us about yourself.

谢谢，埃利奥特。

Thanks Elliot.

我是医生。

This is Doctor.

我叫特里西亚·卡特，和乔纳森·利特尔合著了《积极扑克》，主要做心理博弈方面的辅导。

Tricia Carter and I'm the author of Positive Poker along with Jonathan Little and I do quite a bit of mental game coaching.

我在Red Chip Poker上做了很多关于心理博弈的视频，也接一些心理辅导的客户，平时不忙的时候就打打扑克。

I make a lot of videos over at Red Chip Poker related to the mental game and I see clients for mental coaching and I play poker when I'm not busy with all that stuff.

听起来很棒，我是一名催眠治疗师，专门帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

Sounds great and I'm a hypnotherapist and I specialize in working with poker players and UFC fighters.

我帮助人们克服在擂台上或牌桌上遇到问题背后的情绪障碍。

I help people overcome the emotional issues that are behind the problems they have in the cage or at the table.

我们这个播客系列会邀请一些成功的运动员和扑克高手，聊聊他们认为让自己成功的因素，分享关于心态、心理技巧以及如何向顶尖选手学习、提升水平的建议。

And what we're gonna do with this podcast series is invite on successful athletes, successful poker players, and talk to them about what they feel made them successful and get any advice, any tips regarding mindset, mental game, and just ways of progressing your game forward learning from the pros.

今天我们的嘉宾是丹·德沃雷斯。

So today's guest is Dan Daniel Dvoress.

他是超新星精英，同时也是Run It Once的教练。

He's a Supernova Elite, and he's also a coach on Run it Once.

丹，欢迎来到节目。

So Dan, welcome to the show.

你可以先做个自我介绍，跟我们说说你是谁，平时在扑克圈都做些什么。

If you'd like to introduce yourself and just give us an idea of who you are and what you've been doing in poker.

当然。

Sure.

我叫丹尼尔，姓德沃雷斯。

My name's Daniel, last name Dvoress.

我在线扑克的昵称是Oxota或者Ahota，大家一般都这么叫我。

My online poker name is Oxota or Ahota, which is what everyone kind of knows me by.

我从事职业扑克已经六年了，玩过各种类型的现金牌局、多桌锦标赛、单桌赛，还有现场比赛。

I've been playing professionally for about six years now, and I've played a very wide variety of cash games, MTTs, sit and goes, live.

只要是高注额、有牌局，我都愿意上桌。

Basically anything that's high stakes and that runs, I'm willing to play.

这就是我的背景。

So that's my background.

目前我也是Run it Once的教练，每隔几周就会录一段视频。

And currently, I'm a coach on Run it Once as well, where I make videos every couple of weeks.

我刚在那边完成了一年的合约，幸运的是，他们给我续了约。

And I just wrapped up one year there, and I got a contract extension there, thankfully.

恭喜你。

Congratulations.

谢谢，我对此非常兴奋。

Thank you, which I'm very excited about that.

所以我会继续和Run it Once合作至少再一年。

So I'll be working with Run it Once for at least one more year.

好的，太棒了。

Okay, awesome.

接下来我们会聊聊心态这个话题，谈谈它对职业扑克有多重要，也会分享一些有趣的故事和经验，告诉你哪些东西帮助我不断进步。

And what we're going to be doing is going through questions regarding mindset, how important you feel it is to professional poker and just some stories and interesting information you can share with our listeners on what you think helps you improve.

那我们先从头开始，是什么样的时刻让你决定成为一名职业扑克选手？

So just starting off from that, what was the moment that made you decide to become a professional poker player?

有没有哪一次赢了比赛或现金局，让你突然觉得：这就是我要走的路，职业生涯就此开启？

You know, when was was there a certain win in a tournament or a cash game where you just thought this is for me and and the career started?

还是说，这个决定是你早就规划好的，慢慢酝酿出来的？

Or was it something that was planned out sort of longer term?

这其实是一个非常缓慢的过程。

It was kind of a really slow progression.

我一开始是朋友转了我4块钱，让我在Stars上玩1分2分的牌。

I literally started by a friend transferring me $4 to play 1¢, 2¢ on stars.

就这么开始的。

That's how it started.

后来我慢慢攒起了一点资金，但那时候我还有很多大学贷款。

And I built a bankroll up and then I was in a lot of university debt at the time.

于是我就越玩越多，心想：嗯，这或许是个还清大学债务的好办法。

So I started playing more and more poker and then it was kind of, Oh, well, this might be a good way to put a dent into the university debt.

之后我一点一点提升级别，玩得越来越勤，最后顺理成章地转成了全职打牌。

Then I started moving up gradually, playing more and more poker and eventually just smoothly transitioned into playing more full time.

哦，我是不是听明白了？

Oh, so did I hear that right?

你真的是从4块钱开始，一路靠自己打上来的？

Did you literally start with $4 in your account and you've ground your way the whole way up?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

这故事可真更让人惊叹了。

Well, that's an even more incredible story.

从朋友转给你的四块钱，一路打到高注额。

So from $4 in your account from a friend all the way up to high stakes.

恭喜你。

So congratulations.

我可不是那种一分钱都不投、完全靠免费筹码起家的人。

It's not a I I haven't been super nitty with, like, the no deposit thing.

后来刚开始玩的时候，平台有存款奖励，我都一一利用了。

After that, what what I did is, like, when I was first playing and they had deposit bonuses and all that, I went through all of those.

所以并不是那种从四块钱开始、从没自己投过一分钱的故事。

So it's not one of those stories where I never put a deposit in and just started with those $4.

但我所有投入扑克的钱，都是从那四块钱开始的。

But all of the money that I have put into poker started with that.

太棒了。

Excellent.

我特别喜欢你的故事，因为你一开始就想，也许能用打扑克的钱还清学生贷款，说实话，在我看来，再没有什么比用扑克赢的钱还贷更让人满足的了。

What I love about your story is how you have this idea that, hey, maybe I can pay off some of my school debt, you know, with poker because there is nothing sweeter than paying off school debt with poker money in my opinion.

没错。

Oh, absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

真的特别有成就感。

It's just it's so gratifying.

从你作为职业玩家的角度来看，你的职业规划是怎样的？你是有固定的作息安排，还是单纯等什么时候有好局就打？

And in terms of you as a professional and sort of how your careers looked, is there sort of any form of scheduling that you follow, or do you just look for the best games at the time?

你是怎么安排这方面的？

How do you have things set up from that side?

对我来说，现在就是看什么时候有最好的牌局，就什么时候打。

So for me, currently, what I do is I look for the best game that runs at whatever time.

但直到最近之前，情况都不是这样的。

But it hasn't been like that up until fairly recently.

我以前是个特别守时的打卡型玩家，那时候必须每周凑够四十个小时，得提前排好时间。

I used to be a very kind of a set schedule grinder and it used to be like I got to play my forty hours a week, I got to schedule it in.

但当我升到更高注额后，发现你得随时待命，等好局出现才行。

But I found that as I moved up to higher and higher stakes, you just have to be around when the games run.

尤其是打现场牌时，有时候遇到特别好的局，一玩就是十六到十八个小时，那时候你就得这么干。

Sometimes, especially with live, there's a really good game that's running and you're gonna be playing sixteen to eighteen hours straight, And that's what you gotta do at that point in time.

有时候又特别冷清，根本没几局可打。

And sometimes it's dead, and there's not very much to play at all.

所以你得灵活调整，没牌打的时候就看看书、复盘一下。

So you kind of adapt to that and maybe study instead or do some review.

现在我的时间安排挺乱的，但该打的小时数，我一点都不会少。

So right now, I'm a little bit all over the place, but I'm still very disciplined in actually getting my hours in.

不过对于那些不打高注额、只是想找好局玩的玩家，我强烈建议你定个固定时间表。

But for anyone that is kind of not playing high stakes where they're trying to find the best possible game that's running at the time, I would definitely recommend a set schedule.

好的。

Okay.

而且，你之前好几次提到，你玩多种类型的游戏。

And, I mean, you said that you've you've mentioned a few times that you play multiple game types.

很多职业选手其实只专注自己最喜欢的类型。

A lot of professionals seem to just stick to their favorites.

所以我跟职业选手聊天时，他们常说：我就是打多桌锦标赛的。

So they'll say you know, when I'm talking to professionals, they'll say, I'm an MTT grinder.

或者我只玩单挑坐忘，诸如此类。

I play heads up sit and goes, or whatever it might be.

你当初是怎么决定玩这么多不同类型的？是什么让你对各种玩法都感到自在？

What made you decide and what makes you comfortable playing in all of the game types?

首先，我觉得不同游戏类型之间其实有很多相通之处，很多人没意识到这一点。

First off, I think there's a lot of crossover that people don't necessarily realize between the different game types.

这听起来可能有点傻，但至少所有德州扑克玩法，都是发两张牌，然后发三张，再一张，再一张。

This sounds a little bit silly, but at least all Hold'em games, you're still dealt two cards and three cards come out, then another one, and another one.

其实说到底，这些都是同一个游戏，核心都是关于权益的计算。

It's all the same game and it's all a game of equities.

所以这些游戏之间的差别真有那么大吗？

So how different are the games really?

我觉得，如果一个人在某一种游戏中真正精通了，那他的能力完全可以迁移到其他类型，也能成为那个领域的高手。

I think that if you if someone is genuinely skilled in one game, then that skill set can be morphed to for them to become a genuinely skilled player in another game type.

那你会不会觉得，玩家最好先专精一种，而不是同时学所有类型？

And would you say it's important for a player to get that speciality skill in one first rather than try and learn them all at the same time?

因为我带的一些初学者，或者说是中级玩家，有时候同时学太多游戏反而会分散注意力，尤其是还没在某一种上真正入门的时候。

Because in in some of the the sort of the beginners, let's say, I guess, intermediate players I work with, sometimes learning multiple games at the same time can turn into a distraction if they haven't really reached that higher level than a first one.

你认同这种说法吗？

Is that something you would sort of agree with?

我完全同意。

That I would agree with completely.

当然。

Yes.

因为如果你刚起步，对很多事情还不确定，又想同时学好几个游戏，那只会让你觉得特别吃力。

Because if you're if you're still starting out and you're not sure of a lot of things and and you try to learn multiple games at the same time, it's just going to become very, very overwhelming.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我想插一个问题。

I love to kinda jump in and ask you a question.

对于那些刚接触这个领域、还在起步阶段的听众，您会建议他们如何制定一个有效的学习计划，先把第一个游戏掌握好？

For our listeners who are maybe newer to the game and just starting out, what would be your advice on how to build a great curriculum so that they can master that first game?

这其实要看具体是哪种游戏。

So it really depends on what that game type is.

这个问题太笼统了，不好直接回答。

It's a little bit too general of a question to try and answer.

如果具体到多表锦标赛，有人想从线上多表锦标赛开始，您会建议他们从哪里入手？

So if you break it down into MTTs, someone wants someone was starting in MTTs, online MTTs, what would you sort of give them as a what would be the starting point?

他们每周的学习安排该是什么样的？

What should their, you know, study or week look like?

你建议找教练吗？

Would you recommend coaching?

是先看视频，再找教练吗？

Should they be doing videos first then moving on to coaching?

如果你从一个完全的新手开始，一步步带他走到高阶水平，你会怎么规划整个学习路径？

Sort of how how would you plan it out for someone else if you were taking someone from relatively, you know, new beginner and trying to teach them the way all the way up to high stakes?

如果我带一个几乎什么都不知道的新手，想教他打在线多桌锦标赛，我第一件事就是花一两周时间，亲手帮他做一套策略图表。

So if I took a player who knew very, very little and they're just starting out and they're trying to learn MTTs, the first thing I would do is literally spend one or two weeks with them where I would build charts for them.

听起来可能很烦、很枯燥，但新手真的需要一个扎实的基础。

And that sounds really, really annoying to do and really boring, but especially beginners, they need a good baseline.

我觉得新手常遇到的问题是，高手教练往往不了解初学者真正卡在哪里，那些对高手来说显而易见的建议，新手根本听不懂。

The problem with, I think, beginners getting a lot of coaching from expert players is that experts don't really get some of the struggles that a beginner may have, and some of the suggestions or recommendations that kind of seem obvious to the expert player and that they would recommend to the beginning player would just go over their head.

你没法教一个连默认开牌范围都没有的人，怎么去利用bubble阶段扩大开牌范围。

So you know, you can't teach a beginning player how to exploit a bubble situation and open up their and widen their opening range if they don't even have a default opening range in the first place.

所以关键是要先打牢基础，然后再一步步往前走。

And so it's all about building the foundation first and then moving forward from there.

没错。

Exactly.

这么说确实很有道理。

Okay, that certainly makes a lot of sense.

说到心态方面，你职业生涯里有没有遇到过情绪失控、心态崩了的时候？那种情况有没有让你在财务上或者心理上吃过大亏？

And in terms of just shifting over to the mindset side of things, in your career, you know, things around tilt, feelings around tilt tilt issues, was there any moment that tilt really cost you a lot, you know, financially or even just, you know, psychologically at the table?

有没有哪一次特别让你印象深刻的？

Any moment really stand out?

要说具体哪一次因为情绪失控而大把输钱，倒没有特别突出的例子。

I would say there's not a moment that stands out in terms of me just going kind of monkey crazy and spewing off a lot of money.

我这个人性格上就不是那种会暴怒乱打的人。

That's just kind of not my personality type.

但另一方面，我在牌桌上因为情绪波动和控制不好心态，确实累计输掉了大量资金。

But on the other hand, I would say that kind of tilt and emotional control at the tables has cost me a lot of a lot a lot of money, but cumulatively.

尤其是我刚起步的时候，经常意识到自己当时情绪状态不适合打牌，而选择不打，其实也损失了不少钱。

Especially when I was starting out, there would be so many times where I would recognize that I'm just not emotionally fit to play at that point in time, and you not playing costs you so much money.

如果这是每天都会遇到的问题——比如你得提前收手、开局拖延，或者因为情绪不稳定而没法投入足够时间，这种累积的损失，远比那种一时冲动、一把牌就输光本金的人还要大。

And that's something that would if it's a daily issue where you have to cut sessions short or you're starting a session late or whatever it is, or you're just not putting the hours in because you don't have the emotional control to do so, that's costing you more money than, you know, someone that goes kind of monkey crazy and tilts off a buying in one hand.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实挺有意思的，大多数人可能根本没意识到这一点。

I mean, that's really interesting, and it's something that probably most people don't realize.

情绪失控不一定是那种疯狂赌博的表现。

Tilt doesn't have to be the crazy gambling.

只要情绪受影响，导致你做出非理性决定，就可能让你亏掉一大笔钱。

You know, just anything that's impacting your emotions and doing making you do something irrational can cost you a fortune.

就像他说的，在扑克里，时间就是金钱。

And, you know, time is money in poker, as he said.

只要学会控制情绪，做出一些调整，就能省下一大笔钱。

And, yeah, just controlling that and making some changes to it can save you an awful lot of money.

我的意思是，对于初学者、中级玩家，甚至那些在心态控制上遇到困难的高注额玩家，你有什么建议吗？

I mean, do you have any advice regarding mindset for for beginner players, for intermediate, or even high stakes players who are struggling controlling their mindset?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得关于正念和情绪失控，我有一个特别有意思的体会：很多情绪失控其实源于基础知识不够扎实。

I think one of the more interesting realizations I've had about kind of just mindfulness and tilt issues is that I think that a lot of tilt issues are linked to not having enough of a solid knowledge base.

以我的经验来看，当我自己或者别人情绪最失控的时候，往往是因为对自己感到失望。

So in my experience, when I've seen myself and other people tilt hardest is when they are upset with themselves.

我相信很多听众都有过这种经历：你做了一个让自己后悔的决定，明明知道这手牌不该这么打，却还是这么做了，就为了证明自己是对的。

And I think that this will be familiar to a lot of listeners, but what sometimes happens is you make a play that you're mad about at yourself and it's a play that you knew was wrong but, you made it to prove yourself right.

就像在河牌圈犯了个错误的跟注。

Kind of like a bad river call.

对手下注，你心里清楚自己已经输了，但为了证明自己有多厉害，想看看对方的手牌，证明自己没猜错，结果一咬牙把钱全推了进去——结果对方果然拿的是更好的牌。

Someone bets out, you know you're beat, but to prove to yourself how good you are and to see their hand and to show yourself that you're right, you throw the money in and sure enough, they've got you.

这种行为最会让人陷入恶性循环，越输越气，越气越输。

And that's the kind of stuff where that perpetuates tilt so much.

但说实话，这些决定之所以会做出来，是因为缺乏足够的知识基础和基本功。

But really those decisions, I think that they're they're made because there's not enough of a kind of a knowledge base and a foundation.

所以你是觉得，缺乏自信才导致了这样的决策？

So you think a lack of confidence is leading to the call?

没错。

Exactly.

如果你对某种情况该怎么做有百分之百的把握，怎么可能因为情绪波动而做出错误的决定呢？既然你知道正确答案。

Because if you know with 100% certainty what to do in a particular situation, how can tilt ever impact you to make a wrong decision in it if you know the answer?

是的。

Yeah.

这确实很有道理。

That is certainly makes sense.

我还想说，对新手来说，更容易因为别人做了什么而情绪失控。

I was just gonna say what's also interesting about it is I think with the newer players, the tendency is to go on tilt because someone did something to you.

比如别人诈唬赢了你，或者类似的情况。

You know, they sucked out on you or whatever.

他们打得很差，管他呢，反正就是那样。

They played bad, whatever, whatever.

但当你升到更高级别时，你生气的不再是别人做了什么，而是自己做错了什么。

But then as you move up stakes, it's that frame of I'm not so much mad about what they did, but I'm angry about what I did.

我确实注意到玩家身上有这种变化。

I definitely see a shift with players.

新玩家特别容易生气，尤其是当他们的A牌被爆掉的时候，总觉得这手牌本该是自己的。

The newer players are definitely more upset when, you know, their aces get cracked because they feel they you know, they're entitled to win the hand.

他们已经把钱全押进去了，牌面占优。

They got their money in good.

怎么可能会被一对四给打败？

And how can somebody beat me with a pair of fours?

他们就这样在MTT里被淘汰，真的让人特别不服气。

It's incredibly upsetting that they went out of their MTT that way.

和高阶玩家打交道时，就像你说的，真正让人难受的往往是自己的失误。

When I'm dealing with higher stakes players, as you said, it's it's much more frequently the mistakes that really hurt.

你知道，真正让这些玩家睡不着觉的，不是那些倒霉的牌，而是他们自己的错误。

You know, it's not the bad beats don't keep up those players and keep don't keep those players up at night, but the mistakes can do.

这确实是我们在训练中特别重视的一点。

And that's definitely something we work on an awful lot.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你们俩说得都非常对。

I think I think you're both very, very right.

我之前还真没从新玩家的角度来想过这个问题。

That's something that I hadn't considered kind of the perspective of a of a new player.

我觉得随着经验积累，这种心态上的波动会慢慢消失，对输牌也会越来越淡定了。

And I think like that kind of tilt goes away with experience, like you kind of just get a thick skin towards beats.

没错。

Right.

那你呢？你经常打高注额的比赛，是不是也这样？

And is that something that you I mean, so you're playing in a lot of these higher stakes games.

你有没有见过一些顶尖常客，因为某些原因情绪失控？

Do you ever see some of the stronger regulars, you know, obviously, going on tilt for a particular reason or not?

你是能从牌桌上或者聊天里察觉出来，还是通常只有水平差的玩家才会这样，而职业选手都能稳得住？

Is it something that you can sense at the table or you see in chat, or is it usually the weaker player at the table who's doing that and the pros keep themselves together pretty well?

说实话，我真没想到，就连最高级别的比赛里，常客们的表现也会这么糟糕，不管是线下还是线上。

I can honestly say that I'm shocked at the behavior that I see from regulars at even the highest stakes games, both live and online.

有时候看到的那些行为，首先就不够专业，我简直无法想象，一个人在这么高的水平上还能处于那种状态。

Some of the behavior I see sometimes, it's just well, it's unprofessional, first of all, but I just can't even imagine kind of being in that state at that level.

对。

Yeah.

每次看到这种情况，我反而特别开心，因为这等于又给了我一个赢钱的机会。

And every time that I see it, it honestly makes me very happy because I just see it as another way to get an edge in the game.

对。

Yeah.

顺带问一下，为了好玩，你平时都看到哪些具体表现？你一般会怎么反应？

And and in what sort of just you know, for fun, what sort of things are you seeing that that you know, your reaction?

是聊天框吗？

Is it chat box?

是情绪化下注吗？

Is it emotional betting?

是频繁全下吗？

Is it going all in very frequently?

你看到哪些行为会觉得替他们尴尬？

What sort of thing really stands out to you where you're just just embarrassed for them?

聊天框是最明显的信号。

The chat box would be kind of the number one giveaway.

因为如果有人在聊天里发脏话，你就知道，聊天里看到的只是冰山一角，屏幕后面还有更大的情绪在爆发。

Especially because you know that if someone is If someone's typing profane things into chat, you know that what you see in chat is just the tip of the iceberg and there's just the rest of the iceberg behind the other computer screen.

你能想象，他们打字的时候，心里肯定已经炸了。

You can only imagine if they're typing that into chat, they must literally be burning inside.

是的。

Yeah.

这不也说明了钱的问题吗？

And I guess that shows you money, doesn't it?

这种情况一发生，你都能闻到钱的味道。

You can you can smell the money when that happens.

没错。

Absolutely.

当然。

Yes.

挺有意思的是，我觉得新手甚至中级玩家都会以为，玩高注额的人一定都特别稳。

It's so interesting that, you know, I think newer players and even intermediate players would think, the high stakes guys must have it all together.

但你却用了‘震惊’这个词。

Yet you use the word shocking.

你见过的有些事情确实让人震惊。

Some of what you've seen is shocking.

你觉得最让你震惊的是什么？

Is the most shocking thing you think you've seen?

我见过最震惊的事发生在一场现场牌局里。

The most shocking thing I've seen is in a live game.

那是一场10/25、5/100的大额牌局。

It was a ten, twenty five, 5,100 game.

有个常客——当然我不能说名字——其实主要是线上玩家，好像根本不适应现场打牌的氛围。

So four blinds, really big game and a regular who has I mean, of course I won't say any names, but this was more of an online player who I guess wasn't really used to playing in the live setting.

他因为一个休闲玩家打错了一手牌还运气好赢了他，当场就冲对方大吼大叫。

And he just legitimately went off on a guy who was a recreational player in that game and he verbally went off on him after the recreational player misplayed a hand and got lucky on him.

我就坐在那儿，心想：你这是在干嘛？

And I'm just sitting there, What are you doing?

从好多方面来看都太离谱了。

Just on so many levels.

首先，你干嘛非得教育他？

First of all, why are you educating this person?

其次，你这样不是要把他吓跑吗？

Second of all, are you doing you're gonna make him leave?

第三，你得先管好自己的情绪。

And third of all, get your own emotional state together.

如果你愿意把我的名片递给他，可能会影响你的收益。

Well, if you want to pass in my business card, it might affect your bottom line.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定是不是真该建议你把名片给他。

Don't know if it's I can really truly recommend you give him my business card further.

那是在私人牌局还是赌场里发生的？

And was that in a home game or a casino game?

因为很明显，职业玩家在私人牌局里还得考虑会不会被以后拒之门外。

Because, obviously, that's another thing pros have to think about if they're in a home game, whether they're gonna get invited back.

那是在赌场里一个比较私密的牌局。

It was a it was kind of a private game in a casino.

所以，那个玩家的行为会不会让他在那个牌局里失去立足之地？

So so there is a chance that that player has then cost himself as heat in that game?

其实我清楚他确实这么做了。

Well, I actually know that he has.

对。

Yeah.

这确实非常专业。

So I mean, and that's incredibly professional.

对职业选手来说，这代价可不低吧？

I'm sorry, expensive for a professional player, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

这么做未来的预期价值，说白了，就是直接往下掉。

I mean, it's just the future EV of doing that is just, you know It just goes

这正好印证了你一开始说的，情绪失控会以你没意识到、甚至当时都察觉不到的方式让你亏钱。

back to what you had said at the top of the show, which is where tilt cost you money in ways that you don't think about or you might not even see at the time.

没错，就是这样。

Right, exactly.

所以那个人可能觉得，好吧，今晚我输了一些钱，但我回家了，不会再这样继续玩了。

So that guy might have felt, okay, I've lost some money tonight, but I'm going home or I'm not going to continue playing this way.

但他没意识到，他已经失去了参赛资格。

But what he's missed is the fact that he's lost his invite.

而这就是一种外部因素，实际代价远比他意识到的要高得多。

And that's one of those external factors that is actually far more expensive than he was probably aware of.

是的。

Yeah.

把一百块烧了，和明天错过在街上捡到一百块的机会，这两者的预期价值是一样的。

I mean, setting $100 on fire and you know, missing an opportunity to pick up a $100 on the street the next day, they have the same EV.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

这纯粹是心理上的控制。

And and that's just purely mental control.

我觉得，一些线上玩家一旦转到线下，会特别不适应。

And I think it is quite difficult for some online players when they do move to life.

打牌的时候，对方直盯着你，感觉完全不一样，对吧？

When there is a difference in play, there's it's different when somebody's looking at you in in the eye as well, isn't it?

当你不再躲在屏幕后面，情绪就会变得不一样。

It creates different emotions when you're not behind the screen anymore.

你有没有注意到这一点？或者你见过其他玩家有这种表现吗？

Is that something you've noticed, or is it something that you see in other players at all?

当然有。

Absolutely.

我确实观察到这一点。

It's something I've noticed.

在真人对局中，人们往往把事情看得太个人化了。

People just take things so much more personally when it's live.

也许是因为他们看不到你的脸，而你却直接坐在他们面前。

Maybe it's the fact that they can't see your face and they're directly sitting in front of you.

也许是因为在线玩的时候，你通常同时打多桌，注意力被分散了。

Maybe it's because online you're usually playing a bunch of tables and your attention is kind of distributed.

我也不太确定具体原因，但确实就是这样。

I don't really know what it is, but that's certainly right.

明白了。

Okay.

那你觉得这是不是因为

And and would you say that's

那种对抗感强太多了。

It's so much more confrontation.

不好意思打断你一下。

Sorry to interrupt you.

没关系。

Oh, no.

不是。

No.

没关系。

No problem.

是我打断你了。

I'm I'm interrupting.

你觉得这是职业选手更明显吗？

Is that more with the professionals, do you think?

还是说那些平时就容易情绪化的休闲玩家更这样？

Or is that with the more recreational players who get really upset on a on a normal basis?

实际上，我觉得确实有一类休闲玩家经常容易发火。

Actually, what I would say is the people who get I mean, there is a category of recreational players who do get upset on a normal basis.

但我认为，那些在实况对局中特别容易崩溃的，更多是平时主要打线上、很少参加现场比赛，但偶尔参加大型赛事的线上职业选手。

But I think that kind of the broader group that really gets upset playing live are your online professionals who don't play that much live but then do play some of the bigger events.

我觉得这跟一种优越感有关。

And I think that has to do with entitlement.

他们在网络上非常成功，可一到线下环境就不适应了，牌运也不顺，可还是觉得自己理所当然该赢，毕竟自己是网络上的名人，线上战绩那么好。

They've been very successful online and then they get brought into this setting where they're not really comfortable anymore, things aren't going their way, but they still feel super entitled because they're this name online or they're successful online.

于是他们的整个世界就在眼前一点点崩塌了。

So their whole world just shatters in front of them a little bit.

你觉得这也跟资金管理有关吗？

And do you think there's much of a bankroll management issue with this as well?

我经常听说有人在线下玩的牌局，注码远远高出他们平时周日或常规线上牌局的水平。

Because I certainly often hear about people playing in games live that that are pretty much quite a lot higher than they would play certainly, you know, on a standard Sunday or or in their normal online games.

他们跳进了一些根本没足够资金支撑的牌局，只因为觉得自己优势太大，结果反而亏得更惨。

So they're jumping into games that perhaps they're not genuinely rolled for because they think they have such a huge edge, then it's hurting them a bit more.

没错，这确实是个资金管理问题。

Yeah, definitely a bankroll issue.

另外我还听过一种说法，好几个职业玩家都提到过：因为线下节奏太慢，一旦手气不好，就觉得再也翻不了身了，要回本得花上无数个小时。

And another one that I've heard related to that is that and I've heard several professionals say this is they feel that because it's live and because everything happens at a kind of a snail's pace, they feel that if they've had a bad day or a bad run that they're never going to get it back because it's going to take forever to put in the volume.

对。

Right.

所以根本就没有免死金牌。

So there's no get out of jail free card.

对。

Yeah.

他们因此感到额外的压力。

So they feel like kind of this added this added pressure almost.

这确实说得通。

Definitely makes sense.

你有没有什么建议，能告诉一个人怎么从一个不错的玩家，成长为顶尖的高注额玩家？

Do you have any I any sort of advice in terms of what someone should be doing to go from being that sort of that good player and then reaching the stage of being a great high stakes player?

你觉得优秀和顶尖之间，到底差在哪儿？能说清楚一点吗？

What's the difference between someone who's good and great, if you can put that into words for us?

这里面差别可多了。

So there's a lot of differences.

我觉得大概可以从两个方向来看。

I think that there's kind of two avenues you could go.

你可以尝试提升自己的技术，比如理论基础知识、读牌能力，还有实际打牌时的熟练度。

You can try to improve your skill and that would be kind of your theoretical knowledge base, your hand breathing abilities, all of that, how skillful you are in actually playing the game.

或者走心理博弈这条路，就是始终保持自己最好的竞技状态。

And then you could go kind of the mental game avenue where you just try to play your A game all the time.

我觉得大家往往会高估不同级别玩家之间的技术差距，比如玩50美元底注的人和玩20美元底注的人。

And I think that people kind of overestimate the gap in skill between, let's say, a guy who plays, I don't know, dollars 50 blinds and the guy who plays 20.

人们总以为中间有个巨大的鸿沟。

People think that there's this huge skill gap.

没错，确实存在巨大的技术差距，但我真心觉得，与其选一个平均水平的25/50级别玩家在他状态最差时硬撑，我宁愿选一个平均水平的一到两美元级别玩家在他状态最好时打球，任何时候我都选后者。

And yeah, there is a huge skill gap, but I can honestly say that I would probably take an average one two grinder playing his a game over an average twenty five fifty grinder playing his c game any day.

听起来就像你在说，呃，艾略特。

It seems like as you're going excuse me, Elliot.

当你从优秀迈向卓越时，虽然你能掌握技术层面的东西，但可能在心理素质上还有所欠缺。

As you're going from good to great, you know, you can get the technical skills down, but you are missing some of the mental skills.

你是这个意思吗？

Is that what you're kinda telling us?

有点儿，但还不止这样。

Kind of, but even more than that.

你这么说，好像心理素质只是锦上添花。

So I think like the way you framed it kind of implies that your mental skills are kind of the icing on the cake.

我的意思是，我根本不觉得那是锦上添花。

What I'm saying is that I actually don't think that they're the icing on the cake.

它不是建立在扎实牌技之上的额外补充。

They're not an add on to solid poker.

它本身就是一个至关重要的组成部分。

They're actually a huge component in themselves.

明白了。

And Got it.

如果要打个比方，你觉得心理因素占多大比重？

Where would you where would you put it in sort of a percentage?

我经常跟人聊这个话题。

Because I I I talk to people a lot about this.

当然了，作为一位心理训练教练，我难免有偏见。

Obviously, you know, I'm biased on a mental game coach.

我真心觉得，心理素质能决定你一年是赚钱还是亏钱。

I really believe that mental game, it can be the difference between, you know, making money in a year and losing money in a year.

我通常说，至少有三成的成功取决于心理层面，但大多数人只愿意花5%的时间和精力去提升它，甚至更少。

I mean, I usually say you've got to be looking at least 30% of your success is mental game, whereas people usually only put about 5%, if that, of their time and investment in trying to improve it.

你觉得30%这个比例合理吗？

Would you say 30% is about right?

你觉得会不会更高一些？

Would you think it's even more Okay.

肯定不止5%。

Well, it's not five.

那简直低得离谱。

I mean, is ridiculously low.

如果排除极端情况，只看那些水平中等、扑克基础扎实的玩家，我觉得心理因素至少占三成。

So I think that you need to if you cut out the extreme cases, so you look at the spectrum of skill and you disregard the really bad end and the really good end, So you cut off the extremes, and so you're if you're only dealing with players who have an acceptable knowledge of poker and who are pretty well developed, I'd say it's at least 30%.

是的。

Yes.

至少是这个数。

At least.

我想知道的是，随着水平提升，你觉得心理因素在其中所占的比例会不会更大？

What I wonder is as you progress up the ranks, do you think it becomes a greater percentage of that pie?

会的，因为我觉得一旦达到某个水平，大家的水平就都差不多了。

Yes, because I think once you hit a certain skill level, everyone is kind of it plateaus a little bit.

明白了。

Okay.

所以你的意思是，谁能更持久地发挥出最佳状态，谁就更容易胜出？

So I mean, you think there's sort of an argument there that it becomes the person who can play their A game longest?

因为大家的巅峰状态其实相差不大。

Because A game is relatively equivalent.

你讨论的其实是每个玩家之间微小的优势差距。

You're you're talking about a tiny percentage edge for each player.

但如果一个人能持续十小时发挥最佳状态，而桌上的另一位职业选手只能撑六小时，那多出来的四小时——也就是用A级表现对抗B级或C级表现——才是赚钱的关键，你知道的，高手对高手。

However, if one person can play his a game for ten hours and another professional at the table can only do it for six, that that four hours of a game versus b or c game is where the money's made, you know, reg versus reg.

对。

Yes.

你刚才说的没错，但我觉得这背后还有更强的指数效应。

And so what you said, but I think it's also there's also more of an exponential effect.

我的意思是，每一局都不是孤立的，它其实是在为未来做投资。

So what I mean by that is every session, it's not an isolated session, it's also an investment in the future.

如果你在某一局里全程发挥A级水平，这不仅提升了当下的收益或期望值，还让你更深入了解了对手，也让你在这一局中发现了新的打法或新的读牌思路。

So if you play your A game for a session, it didn't just improve how much you made or it didn't just improve your EV for that session, it also improved what you learned about your opponents in that session, it also improved new lines or new reads that you came up with during that session.

全神贯注地打一局，就像上课一样，是在为将来再遇到这些对手时打下基础。

Playing your A game and being really mindful, you know, playing a session is like going to class and building a foundation for future sessions that you're going to play against the same opponents.

这可不是考完就完的临时突击。

It's not like writing an exam where it's a one off.

这等于给你积累了更高质量的手牌记录供日后复盘。

So it's giving you improved hand histories to review.

它让你看清自己真正的漏洞，而不是打B级牌时，那些错误看起来更明显。

It's showing you where your true leaks are rather than when you're playing a BLC game, the mistakes might be more obvious.

你可能只是归咎于自己打的是B级牌，我想是这样。

And you just sort of blame it on playing your A, your BLC game, I guess.

没错。

Exactly.

这是一种指数级的增长。

So it's an exponential growth.

对。

Yeah.

所以这极其重要。

So exceptionally important then.

是的，我很喜欢你这样分析这个问题。

Yeah, I love the way you're framing this up.

对听我们讲话的人来说，我特别欣赏你这种长远的眼光，还有你思考问题的方式，因为很少有人会谈到这类具体的话题。

For people who are listening, I just love this long term approach that you take to this and just your whole way of thinking about it, because I just very rarely hear people talking about, you know, these specific types of topics.

我觉得这就是关键所在，维贾亚。

I think this is the difference, Vijaya.

也正因如此，我才希望你来参加这场对谈，真正理解这是一场长期的博弈。

And and this is why I wanted you to come on the showdown is understand it truly is a long term game.

对。

Mhmm.

我接触过的很多选手，最难接受的一点就是：即使你水平更高，也不一定能赢下每一局。

And a huge number of players I talked to, really, that's the that's the most difficult thing for them to accept is that even if they're better, they won't win individual sessions.

我说的可不是只针对低注额的玩家。

And I'm not just talking about people at low stakes.

你知道的，即使是中高注额的玩家，看到一手坏牌或者犯个错误，也照样会很痛苦。

You know, even at the mid and high stakes, it can be very painful for a guy to see a bad beat, to make a mistake.

这中间的差别太大了。

And it is a huge difference.

只要你真正接受了这是一场长期博弈，压力和焦虑就会少很多，也能更频繁地发挥出最佳水平。

As soon as you can really accept it's a long term game, it just seems to remove so much of the stress, so much of the pressure, and allows people to play their A game far more frequently.

是的

Yeah.

你的目标其实应该超越当前的状态，往更远的地方看。

And your goal really becomes to kind of fulfill Well, your goal moves ahead of where you are.

目标要放在未来。

It moves to the future.

所以你要把每一局都看作是通往未来目标的基石，而不是非得这局赢钱、非得赚到多少不可。

So you view every session as a building block to whatever your future goal is rather than I must succeed this session, I must end up money, I must whatever.

对。

Yeah.

这些事情显然都不是你能掌控的。

And those things are obviously out of your control.

没错，就是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

所以你要把那些无法控制的因素剔除掉，别让它们影响你的情绪。

So you get rid of the elements that you can't control and you get rid of kind of them influencing your emotional state.

你是在哪个阶段突然意识到这种思维转变的？那一刻真的让你明白了。

Where was it in your development that you feel like you made this shift in thinking and it just really came home to you?

我觉得当我开始更多地打现场牌局时，才真正意识到心理素质极其重要。

I think I really started thinking that mental game is super, super important as I started playing more live.

这背后有几个原因。

And I think that happened for a couple of reasons.

第一个原因很简单：打现场牌时，你能捕捉到的信息太多了，只要你全神贯注、发挥出最佳状态，就能获得巨大优势。

The first reason is kind of simple and that's because when you're playing live, there's so much information that you could pick up on that being super zoned in and playing your A game just straight up gives you a huge edge.

所以我亲眼看到了心理素质在其中的关键作用。

So I saw the importance of having a strong mental game there.

但我也通过观察一些输钱的玩家，间接地理解了心理基础有多重要。

But I also kind of started to understand how important it is to have a strong mental game base in a roundabout way through observing some of the players who were actually losing money.

我发现，那些在现金局里输掉大笔钱的人，其实当他们状态在线时，并没有那么差。

What I noticed was a lot of the people who dumped a lot of money in live games, when they were playing their a game, they weren't actually that bad.

你可能想不到，但在高注额的现场现金局里，有不少玩家只要认真打，长期来看都能成为赢家。

You would be surprised, but in in high stakes live cash games, a lot of there's quite a few players that will if they're playing their a game, they would actually be a long term winner in a lot of lineups.

但只要他们手气一差，就像有个开关被拨动了，整个人完全变了样。

But as soon as a few hands go wrong for them, it's like a switch flips, and they're a completely different person.

开始不停地往桌面上堆筹码。

They just start shipping stacks in.

简直就像坐在那里的根本不是原来的那个人。

It's literally as though they have been replaced by someone else in their seat.

接着就是一轮又一轮地不断补钱进局。

And they would just proceed to dump buy ins and buy ins and buy ins.

那一刻我简直震惊了。

And that's when I kind of it was kind of like a shock almost.

我才明白，心理状态可能是你扑克游戏中最重要的部分。

I realized that your mental game is potentially the largest component of your poker game.

因为只要心理状态崩了，你再强的技术也发挥不出来。

Because if your mental game is not there, whatever skills you have, you can't apply them.

说到你平时怎么维护心理状态，你都有哪些固定的做法？

I mean, in terms of what you do for your mental game, sort of what's what's your what are your routines?