002 阿德里安·“talonchick”·罗索姆 – 心态优势播客

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客第二集，我是德雷克博士。

Welcome to episode two of the Mindset Advantage podcast with Doctor.

我是特里西亚·卡德纳，还有我，埃利奥特·罗。

Tricia Cardner and me, Elliot Roe.

特里西亚，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

So tell us about yourself, Tricia.

嗨，埃利奥特。

Hey, Elliot.

我是特里西亚·卡特。

It's Tricia Carter.

我写了《积极扑克》这本书，同时也为扑克玩家、体育爱好者和企业高管提供中局策略指导。

I'm the author of Positive Poker and I also do middle game coaching for poker players, sports enthusiasts and business executives.

太好了，我是埃利奥特·罗。

Excellent and I'm Elliot Rowe.

我是一名催眠治疗师，主要帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

I'm a hypnotherapist and I specialize working with poker players and UFC fighters.

今天的节目里，我们稍后会请来阿德里安·罗索姆，她也叫Talonchick。

On today's episode, we've got Adrienne Rowsome coming on later, also known as talonchick.

我们还会聊一聊最近的心理学新闻。

And we're also going to talk a bit about recent psychology news.

特蕾莎，这周有什么最新的消息吗？

What's the latest news this week, Trisha?

我刚读到一篇研究，觉得特别有意思，咱们的听众一定会感兴趣。

Well, I just read a little piece of research and I thought, wow, this could be really interesting to our listeners.

我来给你们简单介绍一下。

So let me set this up for you.

有两位心理学家做了一项研究，你知道的，心理学家总爱找机会折腾人。

Basically, it was a couple of psychologists and as you well know, psychologists love to take any opportunity to torture people.

对。

Right.

他们设计了一个电脑小游戏，规则特别简单。

So what they did was they set up a computer game, and it was a very simple game.

但在屏幕上，你能看到自己在游戏中的进展，他们承诺玩家，只要达到某个阶段，就能赢钱。

But on the screen, you could see, how far you were progressing in the game, and they promised players that when they got to a certain point, they would win money.

但不幸的是，这个游戏的设计让你能看到进度，却永远拿不到奖金。

But unfortunately, the way the game was set up, you could see your progress, but you were never going to get the money.

所以他们故意设置障碍，让你感到挫败。

So they set it up to block you and frustrate you.

这就像很多扑克玩家经历的情况一样。

So the same way lots of poker players feel as well.

没错。

Absolutely.

但真正有趣的是，他们用了脑成像设备，来观察这些玩家在受挫时大脑内部的活动。

But what's really interesting about this is that they were using brain imaging machinery, if you will, to look at what was going on inside of the heads of these players as they were being frustrated.

有趣的是，大脑中有一些特定区域会明显活跃起来，尤其是左杏仁核，以及左脑其他几个部位。

And interestingly enough, there were very specific parts of the brain that would light up, particularly the left amygdala and a few other parts of the brain on primarily the left side.

你可能会想，这有什么特别的呢？

Now we may be thinking, why is this interesting?

有意思的地方在于，这看起来就像大脑里真有一个所谓的‘愤怒回路’，或者说‘情绪失控回路’。

The reason it's interesting is because it looks like there's an actual quote unquote rage circuit or you could even think of it as a tilt circuit in the brain.

哇哦。

Wow.

所以玩家在电子游戏里感受到的挫败，就是在激活这个回路。

So the frustration from the computer games just activating that circuit for people.

没错，正是这个回路被激活了。

Exactly, it's activating the circuit.

在更低等的动物身上，比如老鼠，科学家已经确定存在一个非常明确的愤怒回路。

And in lesser animals, for example rats, they've already determined that there is a very specific rage circuit.

但在人类身上，我们还不能完全确定，因为这些脑区也参与其他情绪反应。

Now we don't have that definitively in humans because some of the circuitry is also involved in other emotional responses.

明白了。

Okay.

但我觉得特别有意思的是，确实有一个具体的神经回路在被激活。

But I just think it's pretty neat to say, hey, there is an actual neural circuit that's firing.

有什么东西被触发了，让你生气。

Something's turning on and making you angry.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我们得帮人们避免走到触发这个电路的那一步。

So it's our job to help people make sure that they don't reach that stage of turning that circuit on.

还有一点挺有意思，你投入的精力越多，就越容易感到挫败，也就是更容易‘爆掉’。

And you know, something that was interesting about it is people are going to be more likely to be frustrated or tilt if you will, the more effort you expend.

这是一个因素。

That's one factor.

另一个因素是你离目标有多近。

And the other factor is how close you are to your target.

真厉害。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

这在职业扑克中也非常适用。

That's very applicable to professional poker then.

没错。

Exactly.

你想想看。

Because think about it.

比如打多桌锦标赛，你一路打下去，结果在刚进奖金圈前被淘汰，这比第一小时就出局要让人气愤得多。

If you've played let's say you're playing an MTT and you played and played and played and then you bubble, that's more frustrating than if you, say, had busted out in the first hour.

是的。

Yeah.

但这确实说得通，对吧？

But I mean, that certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

没错。

Exactly.

所以人们应该意识到，当你情绪失控时，大脑的某些区域会被激活，尤其是杏仁核，它就像一个警报系统。

So people should be aware that certain parts of the brain are lighting up when you go on tilt, and the amygdala is like an alarm response.

所以这种反应发生得特别快，我们通常根本没注意到。

So it's happening very quickly without us even really noticing it usually.

但另一方面，既然知道这些触发点一旦被激活，我们其实可以做一些事来强化其他神经通路，帮助平衡这种反应。

But on the other side of that, knowing that when you do, you know, hit these trigger points, there are things that you can do to strengthen some other circuitry that can help balance that out.

尤其是要强化前额叶皮层。

And in particular, you want to strengthen the prefrontal cortex.

我觉得你做的那些工作，埃利奥特，其实就在这方面很有帮助。

And I think some of the work that you do Elliot actually helps with that.

是的，催眠也非常相似。

Yeah, hypnosis is very, very similar.

它其实是一种冥想形式。

It's a form of meditation.

众所周知，冥想能有效增强大脑这些区域的功能，让人更容易保持冷静。

And as we know, meditation is very good at strengthening those parts of the brain, allowing people to stay calm.

另外，我们还会努力降低情绪反应的强度，让那些触发点没那么容易被点燃。

The other thing that we'd be doing is trying to reduce some of that emotional response so the trigger doesn't go off quite so easily.

我猜如果他们测试了很多人，每个人的耐受度肯定都不一样。

So I'm sure if they're testing a lot of people, there would have been different tolerances.

并不是每个情况都会引发同样的愤怒反应。

It wouldn't be a certain scenario always triggers that level of rage.

不同人反应不同，主要是因为他们的生活观念、情绪状态，还有对游戏的理解这些因素。

And the reason different people would have different responses is because of their views on life, how they feel and sort of their understanding of the game and things like that.

我们确实可以做一些事，来提高自己对压力的耐受度，让那些警报别那么容易被触发。

So there are definitely things we can do to increase the tolerance that you have to stress before those alarm bells start ringing.

没错。

Exactly.

但看到大脑是怎么运作的，真的挺有意思的。

But I think it's pretty cool to see how the brain works.

我们才刚刚开始拥有能一窥内部的工具。

And we're just now getting to the point where we're developing the tools that we can actually have a peek in.

能看清楚里面的情况。

Have a look inside.

看那怒火被点燃了。

Watch the rage lighting up.

没错。

Exactly.

太棒了。

Excellent.

谢谢你的分享。

Well, thanks for that.

这周呢，如我所说，我们请来了Rowsome和talonchick，现在就给她打个电话吧。

And this week, as I said, we've got Rowsome on or talonchick and let's give her a call now.

Adrienne，你最近怎么样？

So Adrienne, how are you doing?

我很好，谢谢。

I'm great, thanks.

你呢？

How are you?

我挺好的。

Yeah, I'm good.

我很好。

I'm good.

我想从心态的角度开始聊，你在职业生涯中有没有经历过情绪失控严重影响你的时刻？

And I guess just starting off on the mindset side of things, when did you notice in your career, have you ever noticed tilt really impacting you?

情绪失控这个话题挺有意思的，对我来说是这样。

Tilt is such a funny subject, I I guess, for me.

我刚开始打扑克的时候，确实有点情绪波动，但那时候根本没太注意到。

When I first started playing poker, I I suppose there was an element to tilt, but it was it was very small or very non apparent to me at the time.

我刚开始打扑克，纯粹是因为觉得好玩。

When I started to play poker, I played purely because it was fun.

那时候我不是为了钱打的。

I wasn't playing for money.

更不是为了谋生或者类似的原因。

I wasn't playing for my livelihood or anything like that.

我只是因为喜欢玩纸牌游戏才打的。

I was just playing because I loved playing card games.

所以让我更烦的不是情绪失控，而是输掉一些牌局。

So what tended to kinda irritate me more than tilt me was losing hands.

如果我感觉本该赢的牌局输了，或者输的次数比我觉得合理的多，现在回头看看，这些反而比输钱更让我情绪波动。

If lost hands where I felt entitled to the pot or I lost more hands that I thought was my fair share, that would kinda make me a little bit tilty as I look back now, more so than losing the money.

这种情绪波动是影响了你的感受，还是真的改变了你打牌的方式？

And was that in terms of tilty in terms of the way that you felt or did it change the way you actually played hands at the table?

我觉得确实有影响，因为我一直玩限注扑克，情绪波动的表现比较隐蔽——比如我会打得更松，做更多三注，或者在河牌圈更轻易跟注，因为当时每注才六块，我玩的注额很低。

I think definitely because I've been always a limit player, the the tilt in my game comes out, and it's it's a little bit more subtle in that I would tend to make looser three bets, or I would pay off more bets on the river because it would just be at the time, it would be just another $6 because I was playing fairly low limit.

但这些六块、三块的，积少成多，最后也是一笔不小的数目。

But those $6 and $3 and all the rest start to add up.

你职业生涯中有没有想办法控制这种情况？

And is that something that you've managed to curtail throughout your career?

现在这种情况有好转吗？

Has it started to reduce now?

现在我更有意识了，能更清楚地察觉到自己什么时候做了那些call，什么时候做了松散的三次下注，以及到底在跟谁跟注、不跟谁跟注。

I think with awareness, I'm definitely able to to see when I'm making those calls and making those three bets and and who I'm paying off and who I'm not paying off quite a bit better.

当我以更专业的态度看待游戏，认真复盘自己的牌局时，就能看出哪些时候我做了错误的跟注，也能回溯到之前那一连串的牌局，发现情绪波动是如何悄悄渗透进我的打法的。

Now that I take a more professional mindset to the game and look at my game and examine my game, I can see the spots where I've made calls, and I can see the sequence of hands, you know, leading up to it where that tilt has just crept into my game.

我能问你个相关的问题吗？

Can I ask you a quick question about that?

当然可以。

Of course.

你刚才说，当你开始以专业心态对待游戏后，这种变化就更明显了。

So as you're you're saying you've noticed that it shifted a little bit more as you took on a professional mindset.

你能说说，你职业生涯中是什么时候开始真正转向专业心态的吗？

Can you talk about where you were at in your career when your more professional mindset started kicking in?

我2002年开始打扑克，2004年或2005年左右开始在线玩。

Well, I started playing poker in 2002 and started playing online in about 2004, 2005.

头四五年，我纯粹是当娱乐来玩的。

For the first four or five years, I played strictly recreationally.

如果赢了钱，我就给自己买点东西，或者去旅行，视赢了多少而定。

You know, if I won money, I would buy myself something or go on a trip or, you know, depending on how much I won.

要是输了，那就当是为娱乐付的钱。

And if I lost, well, that was me paying for my entertainment.

对。

Mhmm.

大概玩了五六年之后，我开始觉得这样太不靠谱了。

So kind of about five or six years in, I started to think like, this is silly.

我为什么不多花点心思呢？

Why am I not putting in a full effort?

这可是真金白银，我本可以赚不少的。

This is real money and I could be making, you know, significant money.

我白天上班，晚上打牌，赚的钱差不多和工资一样多。

I was working my day job and, but was making just about as much in the evening times when I was playing.

所以我慢慢开始更认真地对待了。

So I I started to, you know, pay pay attention a little bit more.

我读了李·琼斯的《限注德州扑克》这本书。

I read Lee Jones' Limit Hold'em book.

是的。

Uh-huh.

很久以前，那时候限注德州扑克特别流行，我就开始主动找更多资料来提升自己的牌技。

Way back way back when that was the prevalent game and started kind of seeking out more information and more resources to improve my game.

那后来PokerStars那边是怎么回事？

And then what happened with PokerStars?

你是怎么成为PokerStars的职业选手的？

How did you become a PokerStars pro?

对。

Yeah.

这说到底是我固执的结果。

It's story of my stubbornness.

2011年初，我联系了一个朋友，他认识PokerStars的一些人，他们跟我说：‘阿德里安，你差点就进线上战队了，但他们觉得你做不到。’

In early twenty eleven, I was in touch with a friend who who knows some people at PokerStars, and they had said that, oh, Adrienne, you had almost made team online, but they didn't think you could do it.

但我根本没去申请。

And I hadn't applied.

所以我的理解是，他们其实考虑过我，但觉得我没法平衡生活、工作、打牌，还要当在线战队成员。

So basically what I took from that is that they were considering me, but that they didn't think that I would be able to manage my life, my job, and playing poker and being a member of team online.

对大多数人，尤其是我来说，你越说我不行，我越要证明给你看。

And for most people and especially for me, if you want me to do something, tell me I can't.

没错。

Right.

于是我决定行动，开始写博客。

So so I set out and I started my blog.

我就这么开起了博客。

I started blogging.

我开始加大打牌的牌桌数量。

I started putting in more volume of the poker tables.

我认真思考，我身上有什么特质能吸引战队？我作为牌手的独特之处在哪？我凭什么算一个职业牌手？

I started to, you know, really try to think, like, what about me would be appealing to team online and what about me would makes me stand out as a poker player and how am I a poker professional?

后来经过几轮沟通和谈判，我在2011年7月正式签约了PokerStars。

And so then through some talks and negotiations then I was signed to PokerStars in July 2011.

现在都四年了，我特别喜欢这份工作。

So we're four years in now, and I love it.

我很好奇，你成为PokerStars职业选手后，别人打你的时候会不一样吗？

And just just out of interest, did people start playing against you differently when you became a PokerStars pro?

我确实发现，在多桌锦标赛里，大家打起来会不一样，因为赢了职业选手总有一种成就感。

I definitely find that in multi table tournaments, people do play differently because there's there's a certain good feeling when you beat the pro.

你知道的。

You know?

所以我经常看到，别人会拿更差的牌来跟我对抗。

Like, you definite so I would notice people would would play worse hands versus me.

明明没道理跟注的牌，他们也会硬着头皮跟，明明赔率根本不划算。

They would maybe draw in spots where a draw isn't warranted or isn't they're not getting the right price for it.

就为了能赢我一局。

Just to be able to to beat me.

我打现场的时候也注意到这一点。

I notice it as well when I've played live.

比如我参加世界系列赛时穿着赞助徽章，总会引起不少关注。

Like, when when I played at the World Series and was wearing my patches, they raise a certain amount of attention.

经常有人会说，哎，PokerStars的职业选手来了。

And and so I would get, you know, kind of comments like, oh, here's the PokerStars pro is here.

有些人会躲着我，也有些人反而更想跟我对局。

And I I there would be some people who would avoid me and then some people who would go after me a little bit more.

作为女性，这种体验是怎样的呢？

What is the experience like as a woman?

因为职业女扑克玩家真的太少了。

Because you just don't see that many professional women poker players.

作为女性，这经历确实挺特别的。

As a woman, it's been certainly interesting.

我从2002年开始打现场，一走进扑克室，不管怎样，所有人的目光都会立刻转向你。

I've started playing live in 2002, and, you know, you would walk into the poker room and all eyes turn to you no matter what.

所以你会特别在意自己每一个举动，赢的每一手牌，输的每一手牌，每次摊牌的时候。

And then so you're a little bit, hyperconscious of every every move everything you do, every pot you win, every pot you lose, every time you show down a hand.

我觉得每个刚玩扑克的人，多少都会有点紧张，怕出错，怕引人注目，怕丢脸。

So every player that starts out playing poker, I think has a certain element of nerves and a certain element of, you know, not wanting to make a mistake or stand out or be embarrassed.

但作为一个女性玩家，尤其是在十二年前，你一进门就已经是焦点了。

But as a woman in the poker room, especially twelve years ago, you were already standing out.

所以你任何一个小失误，都会被放大很多倍。

So it just felt like any misstep you did would stand out that much more.

当女性在牌室里，其实和戴著赞助商徽章的感觉差不多，因为也有不少男玩家不希望我赢牌。

Being a woman in the poker room wasn't that much of a different experience than actually wearing the patch because similarly there were men I would play against who wouldn't want me to win a pot.

但也有一些男玩家会故意让着我，说：‘宝贝，来，这把牌你拿去吧。’

And there were men that I played against who would fall to me and be like, oh sweetheart, oh darling, here you go, you take that pot.

这都是因为他们对女性玩家有某些固有的刻板印象。

Or, you know, for whatever their preconceived notions were of women poker players.

哇，这么说确实差别挺大的。

Wow, so yeah, it's quite a difference.

这十二年来有变化吗？

And has that changed over the twelve years?

我觉得现在打扑克的女性越来越多了。

I think it's it's women are more commonly in the poker room.

我去参加世界扑克系列赛打现场的时候，那是我目前唯一还打现场的地方。

When I go down to the World Series and play live, that's about the only place I play live now.

算是几个主要的扑克赛事之一吧。

It's some of the major poker stops.

我注意到，每张牌桌通常会有一两位女性玩家。

There tends to be, I find, one or two women at at a poker table.

所以有其他女性和我同桌，现在已经不稀奇了，这挺好的。

So it's not unusual for another woman to be at the table with me, which is nice.

你知道的。

You know?

那种彼此之间有种默契和支持的感觉。

Like, there's there's a there's a little bit of solidarity in there.

但显然还有很多障碍需要克服，很多人并没有意识到，或者根本没注意到，扑克桌上存在这样的问题——性别歧视，还有那种刻意放水或者过度打压的情况。

But there are certainly still hurdles to cross, and people don't necessarily realize or give pay attention to the fact that there are these issues that go on, the sexism, but also then the soft playing and the overplaying.

是的，我觉得我们能提起这个话题、认真讨论它很好，因为很多玩家都会说，咱们得扩大玩家群体，而让更多女性加入牌桌，正是个很好的办法。

Yeah, I think it's, I'm glad we're bringing it up and talking about it because, you know, a lot of players will say, hey, we need to increase the player pool in general And a great way to do that would be to have more women coming into the games.

但有时候你会发现，牌桌对女性并不总是那么友好，这真是个挺微妙的问题。

But then sometimes you see it's not always welcoming to women, so it's kind of an interesting problem.

没错。

Mhmm.

当然。

Definitely.

你就是会觉得特别显眼。

I mean, you just feel like you stand out.

人们通常会避开那些让自己感到尴尬或孤立的场合。

And people tend to avoid avoid situations where they feel awkward or where they feel isolated.

不管你是什么性别，第一次进扑克室的时候，多半都会有这种感觉。

And definitely your first few times in a poker room can feel that way regardless of gender.

作为女性，这种感觉更明显。

It just stands out more as a woman.

没错。

Exactly.

回想你刚开始打牌的时候，学到了哪些东西？对于刚入门或者想提升到更高水平、甚至想成为PokerStars线上职业选手的人，你有什么建议？

And then just thinking about as you started out the things that you learned, what sort of advice would you have for someone perhaps a beginner in the game or intermediate player trying to reach the higher levels of the game or wanting to become a PokerStars online pro?

你对这些人有什么建议？

What sort of advice would you have for them?

我觉得对任何新手来说，最重要的是搞清楚自己为什么打扑克。

I think for any new player, the most important thing is establish why you are playing poker.

这一点在我整个职业生涯中都特别真实，因为刚开始的时候，我只是因为觉得好玩才打。

That that's something that's really rang true for me across my career because, you know, in the early days I was playing because it was fun.

那时候就是一种消遣。

It was my recreation.

所以我不需要非得成为牌桌上最厉害的那个人。

So I didn't need to be the best player at the table.

我不需要赢下所有钱，赢下每一 pot。

I didn't need to be win all the money, win all the pots.

我只是想偶尔拿到好牌，赢几把就行，但现在的我已经不一样了。

I just wanted to, you know, hit some rivers and scoop some pots, but that's different than I am now.

我现在打扑克，是为了获得财务自由，能随心所欲地过自己想过的生活。

Now I play poker because I wanna have the financial freedom to do what what I want with my life.

我想成为这项运动的顶尖人物。

I want to be at the very top of the game.

我想在奥马哈玩家群体中、在女性扑克玩家中成为领军人物，同时继续在PokerStars担任我的角色。

I want to be a leader amongst the Omaha community, the female poker community, and do so, continue on in my role with poker stars.

所以设定目标很重要，要清楚自己到底想做什么。

So it's important to set some goals, be clear and focused with what you wanna do.

如果你的目标是每一场都全力以赴，尽可能多赢钱，那就必须有一套固定的流程和行动计划。

You know, if your goal is that you want to play every session at your very best and win as much as possible, you have to have some kind of routine and plan of action to do just that.

我通常会把目标写下来。

What I do most of time is I'll write down objectives.

每年年初，虽然听起来有点老套，像是那种新年决心，但这时候确实是设定目标的好时机——比如今年想在PokerStars拿多少VIP积分，以及打算怎么实现。

So at the beginning of the year, you know, it's a little bit corny necessarily New Year's resolution type things, but the beginning of the year is always a good time to set targets for how many VIP player points I wanna get with poker stars in the year and how I'm gonna do that.

然后把目标拆解到每个月、每周、每天。

And so break it down month by month, week by week, day by day.

我靠固定的流程来推进，埃利奥特，过去一年半我一直在用你的MP3。

Using a routine, you know, Elliot, I've used your m p threes for the last year and a half.

谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

我打现场牌的时候多，线上也打，这个方法能帮我快速理清思路。

When I play live mostly, but also online, you know, it's a quick and easy way to just kinda straighten my head out.

很好。

Perfect.

还有你选的游戏，很多人一想到扑克，第一反应就是无限注，因为那最吸睛。

And and then your choice of games because, you know, a lot of people, obviously, when they think of poker, they're thinking of no limit because that gets the most publicity.

那你现在主要玩什么牌型？

But what games are you playing at the moment?

你刚才提到了限注和奥马哈。

You mentioned limit and then Omaha.

你目前还玩哪些其他牌类游戏？

What what other games are there that you're playing?

我在线上主要玩的是限注奥马哈高低分牌。

The game I primarily play online is limit Omaha high low split.

我喜欢这个游戏，因为能经常看到翻牌，而这正是我偏爱的打法。

So it it appeals to me because it's a game where you get to see a lot of flops, and and that's kind of always the player I like to be.

我喜欢多入池，也不想因为手牌差而被惩罚。

I like to be in lots of pots and I don't want to be punished by playing awful hands.

在奥马哈高低分牌里，各种牌型的胜率差距其实都不大。

So in Omaha high low splits, all the hands kind of play fairly close to each other in terms of equity.

所以不管拿到哪四张牌，你都有机会在翻牌圈有所作为。

So in terms of your chances of hitting a flop, almost any four cards you can go with.

这游戏特别适合喜欢多回合对抗的人，而我恰恰就是这样。

So it's a good game for people who like lots of action, which describes me quite well.

我本来想问你，玩限注奥马哈高低分牌这么久了，刚入门那会儿，根本没什么书啊、视频啊这类学习资料吧？

I was going to ask you, playing Limit Omaha, Hi Lo Split and for as long as you've been playing it, you know back when you started playing there wasn't much available in the way of you know books and videos and things like that.

那你后来是怎么达到现在这个水平的呢？

So how did you get yourself up to the level that you are now?

我有个好朋友给我讲过，教我怎么区分高低牌，还介绍了游戏的基本策略。

You know, one of my good friends explained it to me and explained to me the low and explained to me kind of the basic strategies of the game.

我学东西主要靠试错。

A lot of my learning style is through trial and error.

我大部分本事都是靠实战练出来的。

A lot of my learning is done hands on by practicing.

所以我从低注额开始练，反复练习各种打法，刻意把自己放在能赢下整池的局面里琢磨。

So practicing at lower limits, practicing moves, thinking about putting myself in spots where you can win the whole pot.

其实玩奥马哈高低分牌，很多人都觉得无聊。

Essentially with Omaha high low split, everybody kind of thinks, oh, it's so boring.

老是赢一半底池，一半底池，再一半底池。

You're just always winning half a pot, half a pot, half a pot.

这个游戏的关键是找到那些能赢下整池、或者赢下四分之三池子的机会，最大化这些局面的收益。

The goal behind the game is finding the spots where you can win, where you can scoop the whole pot, or you can win three quarters of the pot and maximizing the pot and in those spots.

这和玩德州扑克的思路确实不太一样。

So it's a little bit of a a different mindset than hold them for sure.

我也挺喜欢德州扑克的。

I do enjoy hold them.

我也会玩一些无限注的。

I play I play some no limit.

我主要打多桌锦标赛，但更偏爱这种变化多端的玩法。

I'm mostly in in the multi table tournaments, but I definitely prefer the variation.

在一些线上赛事里，比如线上扑克世界锦标赛（WCoop）系列，我在八种混合游戏中取得过不错的成绩。

I've had some success in eight game in particular during some of the online, like the world championship of online poker, the WCoop series.

我在八种混合游戏中有过不少好成绩，就是喜欢这种不断变化的感觉。

I've had some good successes in eight game, and I just like the the constant variety.

它能让我保持专注，完全投入进去。

It engages me and keeps me attentive.

你这么一说，我真想马上动手练练我的奥马哈牌技。

I'll tell you the way you're describing it, it makes me wanna jump in and start working on the my Omaha game.

欢迎加入。

Come on in.

你手里的牌多，可选的余地也大。

You get you get lot lots of cards to play with.

是啊。

I know.

听起来比无限制德州扑克有意思多了，那儿我只有两张牌，大部分时候都得弃掉。

It sounds so much more fun than no limit hold them where I only got the two and most of the time I have to fold them.

对。

Yeah.

我真建议大家，哪怕先玩玩免费的也行。

I really encourage people to, you know, even go play play money.

就先玩德州扑克吧。

Just hold them.

一火起来就彻底爆了，简直停不下来。

When it took off, it took off and went crazy, and, like, it really took over.

德州扑克确实是个好游戏。

And hold them is a great game.

我不是瞧不起德州扑克，但玩久了确实有点乏味。

I I'm not trying to put down hold them, but it does become a bit mundane.

你懂的。

You know?

老是那两张牌，永远都是那两张牌。

It just kinda always those two cards two cards.

我喜欢玩别的牌类，比如奥马哈、2-7三抽，低注或免费玩玩这些，又不会亏钱。

And and, you know, like, I I love playing other games like Badougie and, Deuce to Seven Triple Draw and, you know, jumping into into some of those games at a low level or play money, you know, you're not gonna get hurt.

玩得开心，说不定还能重新点燃你对扑克的热情。

You're gonna have some fun and it might renew your vigor for poker.

完全没错。

Absolutely.

我觉得学习所有不同的牌种也很有价值，尤其是当大家都要去参加世界系列赛的时候。

And I think there's also value to learning all of the different games, especially with people heading to the World Series.

我听说去年有选手参加马术锦标赛，桌上就他们一个人懂所有牌种。

I mean, I heard of people in the horse tournament last year, and there were certain games that they were the only person on the table who knew all of the games.

所以说，掌握各种牌类玩法确实有好处，对吧？

So, you know, there's value in learning learning all the different game types, isn't there?

当然了。

Oh, yeah.

你确实能看出来。

You definite you definitely see it.

八种牌型混合赛特别明显，因为这种比赛里既有无限注德州，也有限注奥马哈。

You see it a lot with the eight game tournaments because eight game tournaments have no limit hold them and pot limit Omaha in them as well.

所以在这些赛事里，经常会出现大注底池。

So a lot of big pots happened during those series of games.

但到了其他牌种轮换的时候，你一眼就能看出谁是玩德州的，谁是专攻混合牌型的。

But then when the rest of the games are playing, you definitely see who's the Holden player and who's the mixed game player at the table.

你觉得线上和线下玩的时候，心态上有啥不一样吗？

And do you notice a difference mindset wise between the live and the online?

我是说，从情绪波动或者心理压力的角度来看，你有没有觉得两者有啥区别？

I mean, if we're thinking about perhaps the frustration or sort of the difficulties mindset wise, is there any difference for you?

对我来说，打线上牌的时候，我更容易生气，也更容易装作没事，因为没人盯着你。

For me, you know, I think that when you're playing online, I find it quite a bit easier to get frustrated and ignore it because there's nobody else looking at me.

没人评判你，你也感觉不到自己被盯着看。

There's nobody else judging me or, you know, I don't feel like I'm being watched.

要是我在现场玩时状态崩了，我更可能站起来走一走，而不是像打线上那样继续硬撑。

If I found myself in a live situation where I was really tilted, I'm far more likely to go take a walk than I am if I'm playing online and tilted.

打线上时，如果我烦躁、不爽，真要我停下来歇五分钟，得花好大劲儿才能下定决心。

So if I'm playing online and I'm irritated and I'm not happy with what's going on, it really takes a lot of effort for me to sit out and take take a quick break, take five.

但要是现场玩，我一崩，明显能感觉到别人在看，想装没事都难。

But if if I was playing live and I just I can tell that people notice, it's it's a little bit harder to hide.

对于那些想从休闲玩家往上走的听众来说，你觉得提升心理素质有多重要？

For our listeners who maybe are, you know, more recreational players and they wanna make the leap, can you talk about how important the mental skills development is as you're going up the ranks?

你知道吧，这跟任何事情都一样。

You know, it's it's very much just like anything.

如果你刚入行，不管是换新工作还是打扑克，都得打牢基础。

If if you're starting a new career, a new job, you're playing poker, you need to have a foundation.

扑克这游戏，心理上真的特别折磨人。

And poker is can be a mentally torturous game.

有时候你明明牌面占优，一再全压，结果对方却靠一张河牌翻盘。

There there can be days where you get it in, you put all your chips in over and over, and you have the best hand and the person gets there.

他要么抽到了顺子，要么撞上了边缘搭子，那种感觉真的特别打击人，特别煎熬。

They hit their river, they hit their gut shot, and and it can be really quite emotional and quite torturous.

所以如果你从一开始就建立了稳固的心理基础，之后就能一直靠它撑住。

So if you have started from a strong mental foundation and grow from there, you'll always have that to fall back on.

你总能冷静下来，跟自己说：阿德里安，今天确实不顺。

You'll always be able to rationalize and come back to yourself and say, you know, Adrienne, yes, today was a bad day.

只要对方需要抽牌，好像总能抽中，但这种事不可能天天发生。

Whenever they needed to hit their flush draw, it seemed to come, but that doesn't happen every day.

不是每次牌局都会遇到这种情况。

It's not every session that this happens.

只是运气不好罢了。

It was unlucky.

继续打下去，确保每一分钱都投得值，迟早会有回报的。

Continue, you know, making sure that you're putting in your money good and you will eventually reap the rewards.

而且就算你接连几天状态不好，只要根基在，你就会告诉自己：好了，调整一下。

And even on top of that, you know, if you're having a series of days where things are going bad, you have that foundation and you're going to say to yourself, okay, let's bring it back.

重新看看自己打过的牌。

Let's start looking at the hands I've played.

看看对手都是些什么人。

Let's start looking at who I'm playing against.

我是不是在跟比自己强的人玩？

Am I playing against people who I know are better than me?

也许该换个牌桌了。

Maybe it's time to find a different game to play in.

听起来你讲的其实就是要有纪律、有耐心，保持正确的态度，跟自己对话的方式也要对，设定好目标。

It sounds like what you're talking about is just really having the discipline and the patience and just, you know, having the right attitude, talking to yourself the right way, making those goals.

你讲的其实是一个完整的体系。

You're just talking about like a complete package.

是的，如果你想当职业选手，这确实是必须的。

Yeah, if you wanna be a professional, that's certainly what it takes.

对，很多人低估了这一点的重要性，就像你说的，今天输赢不重要，得看长远。

Yeah, and I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of that, especially as you're saying, you know, today's not important, Think about the long term.

我真的觉得，扑克玩家最该想明白的一点就是，你不可能在一场牌局里看清自己的优势。

I I really think that's that's the most important concept for poker players to to think on if they start to get upset with certain hands is that you really can't see your edge over a session.

一周内也看不出来。

You can't really see it over a week.

真正该看的是几十万手牌之后的表现，而不是某一个下午的输赢。

Really, you should be thinking about your edge over hundreds of thousands of hands rather than these sort of, you know, one one afternoon.

对。

Mhmm.

但那些单个下午确实很难熬，这点毫无疑问。

But the but those one afternoons can can be tough in the moment for sure.

尤其是如果你接连遇到好几个这样的日子。

Especially if you have a few of them in a row.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这些挫折会慢慢累积，这不就是我们为什么要上班的原因吗，特丽莎？

I mean, it starts to accumulate and that's why we have jobs, isn't it Trisha?

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

不过我一直说，我自己也有一份正经工作。

I've always said though, like, I work conventional job too.

而且这确实让打扑克更容易赢一些。

And it certainly makes it a little bit I say it makes it easier to win at poker.

我的意思是，它让你更能扛住输钱的日子，也更容易觉得长远来看自己是在赢的。

But what I mean by that is it makes it easier to handle the losing days, and makes it easier to feel like you win in the long term.

但你其实是在说，你有份正经工作，我不确定你现在还干着那份工作，但我知道在你之前发的PokerStars资料里，你那时候有全职工作，有伴侣，现在又有了孩子，还得打扑克。

But you know, you're kind of saying, hey, I've got the day job and I don't know if you still have your day job, but I know like in your PokerStars material that was out, you had the day job, you have the partner, now you have a baby, you have the poker.

你是怎么平衡这些的？

How do you manage to balance all that?

确实挺难的。

It's been tough.

大家总爱说，哎呀我太忙了。

You know, everybody kind of says, Oh, I'm so busy.

你总觉得你自己特别忙。

And you always think you're so busy.

在遇到瑞安之前，我一个人过日子的时候，也觉得忙得不得了。

Before I met Ryan and, you know, when I was single living the life, I still felt busy.

遇到瑞安之后，我的时间自然就多分了一些给他。

Met Ryan, okay, well now a little bit more of my time goes there.

后来我去医院上班，同时还在为PokerStars做事，干别的事情也多了起来。

Started working at the hospital, working with pokerStars and doing other stuff.

我的时间变得更碎片了，你总觉得自己很忙，但当妈之后，我真得重新审视时间了——我儿子现在九个月大，他一刻都闲不下来。

Okay, well, my time gets little bit more and you always think you're so busy, but this motherhood challenge has really made me have to to look at look at time because my son is nine months old now and he's busy.

整天忙个不停。

It's go, go, go.

我目前从职业治疗师的岗位上请了假，这挺幸运的，但关于扑克，我并没有正式休过假。

And so it is kind of I'm on leave from my job as an occupational therapist, thankfully, but I didn't take any sort of a leave from poker officially.

他出生的前六个月，我几乎没怎么打牌，因为光是学着当妈妈就够我忙的了。

I didn't play a lot in the first six months of his life just because I was busy trying to learn how to be a mother.

现在我们总算找到点节奏了。

And now we've kind of hit our stride a little bit.

我和瑞安之间有了固定的分工，所以现在我才能跟你聊天——瑞安正在给卡里克哄睡呢。

And between Ryan and I, we have have routines, which is why I'm able to talk to you right now because Ryan is putting Carrick to bed.

但这确实让我生活的重心发生了一些变化。

But it has created a little bit of a, a different sort of tilt for me.

‘状态失衡’这词挺有意思的，一提到它，不同人脑子里立马就浮现出各种画面。

Tilt is just such a funny thing because when you you talk about tilt, it gives it conjures up all these mental images for for different people.

有些人一想到情绪失控，就想到迈克·马蒂索张着嘴大喊大叫，冲到这边又冲到那边，或者想到菲尔·赫尔穆特发脾气的样子。

Some people see see, like, Mike the mouth Mattisau just going off and then running up one side to somebody and down the other, or they see Phil Hellmuth having a temper tantrum.

但每个人对情绪失控的理解都不一样。

But tilt is just different for everybody.

现在最让我容易失控的，大概就是时间了。

Probably the thing that tilts me now the most is time.

因为我一旦有时间打牌，就希望每一秒都能充分利用。

Because when I have time to play poker, I want to be able to make sure I'm getting the most of every second I have.

这意味着我得尽量在每一手牌里赢最多的钱，同时多桌并行，尽可能多打牌。

So that means I wanna be making sure I'm winning the most dollars in every pot, and I'm playing the most tables I can and getting as many hands in as I can.

但正因如此，时间紧迫反而让我有时在不该跟的时候也跟了，就怕错过机会。

But it also then causes me the awareness of time causes me to sometimes call in spots just in case.

我老想，哎，说不定这把能偷个底池，或者能捞点什么——这其实也是一种情绪失控。

I'm like, oh, well, maybe I can steal a pot here or maybe I can and and that's kinda tilt in its own right.

我因为时间不够，反而打得更差了。

I'm playing poorly because I'm short on time.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这听起来挺贵的，对吧？

I mean, that sounds pretty that could be pretty expensive, couldn't it?

如果你开始变得更具攻击性，玩的牌桌数量超过了你原本感到舒适的范围。

If you're starting to be more aggressive, starting to play more tables than perhaps you're you're as comfortable with.

对。

Yeah.

基本上，我发现自己开始陷入一些不理想的局面。

And and basically, then I start put I I've noticed that I started putting myself in just into suboptimal spots.

所以我看着牌桌，心想，好吧。

So I I'm looking and okay.

有几个人坐在牌桌旁。

Well, there's a couple people sitting at a table.

我平时不会跟他们玩，但没办法，这是唯一在打的牌局了。

I wouldn't usually play them, but, hey, it's the only game running.

也许当我开始在桌边玩的时候，会有一些休闲玩家凑过来加入。

Maybe maybe a recreational player will come jump in if I start playing at the table too.

所以，我确实把自己逼到了一些挺尴尬的境地。

But, so I put myself into awkward situations a little bit, it would seem.

我觉得每个人都得意识到，这种状况谁都可能遇到，哪怕只是个休闲玩家，下班后时间有限，可能潜意识里也在想类似的事。

I think everybody needs to be aware because anybody could have that situation, you know, even if it's a recreational player and maybe they only have so much time after work and they may be thinking similar type thoughts on an unconscious level.

是的， definitely。

Yeah, definitely.

毕竟，时间对每个人来说都很宝贵。

I mean time is precious for everybody.

看来，有了孩子之后，再把其他事情一并考虑进来，让你特别清楚地意识到了这个问题。

It seems like just having your baby and combining it with everything else just really brought it to the forefront for you.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, certainly.

这几乎完全让我停下了线下扑克的玩法。

It has all but eliminated my live poker playing.

我正想问这个呢。

I mean, was gonna be my next question.

你们今年能去看世界大赛吗？

Are you guys gonna be able to make it to the World Series this year?

还是得再等一年，等他再大一点、能多动一动？

Or is it a year off until the he's he's a bit more mobile or

他是在五月底出生的。

Well, we he was born at the end of May.

所以去年我们就没去看世界大赛。

So we we took last year off the World Series.

到时候再说吧。

We'll see.

他最近可活跃多了。

He's pretty he's pretty upwardly mobile these days.

自打他出生后，我倒是打过几场特别棒的现场牌局。

You know, I have had a couple of great experiences playing live since he was born.