004 Mark "Dipthrong" Herm – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客第四期，嘉宾是特里西亚博士。

Welcome to the Mindset Advantage podcast episode four with Doctor.

特里西亚·卡德纳和埃利奥特·罗。

Tricia Cardner and Elliot Rowe.

特里西亚，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

So Tricia, tell us about yourself.

大家好，我是特里西亚·加德纳博士，《积极扑克》的作者，也是扑克玩家、职业运动员和企业高管的心理教练。

Hey everyone, it's Doctor Tricia Gardner, author of Positive Poker and mental game coach to poker players, professional athletes and business executives.

我是埃利奥特·罗。

And I'm Elliot Rowe.

我是一名催眠治疗师，主要帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

I'm a hypnotherapist and I specialise in working with poker players and UFC fighters.

这周你给我们带来了什么内容，特里西亚？

So what have you got for us this week, Trisha?

我给大家带来了一些实用的心理学新发现。

Well, I've got some psychology news you can use for everybody.

今天我想特别聊聊一项新研究，显示维生素D和Omega-3脂肪酸对大脑的影响。

And specifically today, I just wanted to talk about a new study that came out that shows how vitamin D and omega-three fatty acids affect the brain.

那它们是怎么起作用的呢？

And how does it do that?

我来跟你讲，维生素D和Omega-3脂肪酸会影响大脑中血清素的生成。

Well, let me tell you, vitamin D and omega-three fatty acids, they affect how serotonin is produced in the brain.

血清素是一种神经递质。

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter.

它对很多扑克玩家特别关心的事很有帮助，比如专注力、注意力，还有缓解抑郁，以及我们常聊的ADHD。

And it helps with a lot of things that are going to be really interesting to poker players, like focus, concentration, attention, as well as things like depression and our ever present favorite ADHD.

简单说，如果你体内维生素D和Omega-3脂肪酸不足，血清素水平也会偏低。

So the bottom line is this, If you're low in vitamin D and omega three fatty acids, you're going to be low in serotonin.

这意味着你更容易感到抑郁、注意力不集中，或者出现类似ADHD的问题。

What that functionally means is that you're probably going to experience more depression, lack of focus, perhaps some ADHD problems, things of that nature.

那大家是不是该赶紧去买补充剂了？

So people should be out there buying their supplements then?

不过你最好先咨询一下医生，但至少在北美，大多数人维生素D都不足。

Well, you always wanna check with your physician first, but most people in North America at least are deficient in vitamin D.

你晒太阳的时候，身体通常能合成它，但现在大多数人很少晒太阳。

If you go out in the sun, your body will generally produce it, but most people don't go out in the sun too much.

尤其是打扑克的人，更是这样。

And that's especially true if you play poker.

另一面则是欧米伽三脂肪酸。

And the other side of the coin would be the omega-three fatty acids.

大多数人不吃鱼。

Most people do not eat fish.

当然，获取欧米伽三的方法不止这一种，但吃鱼是最主要的方式之一。

And that's not the only way you can get omega-3s, but it is a primary way.

你可以吃欧米伽三补充剂，也可以在饮食里多加点鱼。

You can take a supplement, an omega-three supplement, or you can add fish to your diet.

顺便说一下，研究显示，鱼得是烤的或者烤制的，不能油炸。

Now, just so everybody knows, the research indicates that the fish needs to be baked or broiled, not fried.

说实话，这有点让人遗憾。

I'm sorry to say.

如果有人在吃这些补充剂，我过去做过不少研究，一定要选高品质的鱼油补充剂。

And if anyone is taking those supplements, I've researched them quite a bit in the past, make sure you buy a high quality fish oil supplement.

网上有些排名和评价，但鱼油产品的质量差异真的很大，贵有贵的道理。

There sort of rankings and things online, but there's quite a large quality difference and you do get what you pay for in fish oil supplements.

你自己也多做点功课，这事儿绝对值得留意。

Just do your own research but it's definitely something to be aware of.

谢谢，这对玩扑克的人来说真是很有意思的信息，还有不少可以做的调整。

Thanks, great very interesting news for the poker players and some things that they can do.

今天我们请到了马克·迪普隆·赫姆，他是一位非常知名的扑克玩家，在多桌锦标赛中成绩斐然，累计奖金已超过六百万美元，最近还连续第二次赢得了FTOPS排行榜冠军。

Today we've got Mark Dipthrong Herm coming on and he's a very well known poker player, he's had a lot of success in MTTs, he's made around $6,000,000 in cashes He's also recently just won his second, his back to back FTOPS leaderboard.

他这个人特别有意思，有太多话题可以聊了。

So a really interesting guy with a lot to talk about.

他在扑克行业已经深耕很多年了。

He's been around the poker industry for years and years.

那我们现在就把他叫进来吧。

So let's give him a call now.

马克，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

Mark, tell us about yourself.

嗨，谢谢邀请我来做客。

Hey, Thanks for having me on.

我是一名职业扑克玩家。

I am a poker professional.

我从事职业扑克已经差不多十年了，一直都在打牌。

I've been playing the game professionally for about ten years along with playing poker.

我也深度参与资金支持这一块。

I also am very involved in the backing scene.

总的来说，我觉得我在MTT圈子里的时间，可能不比任何人短。

And just overall, I think I've been like in the MTT scene fully for probably just about as long as anyone else.

所以我对锦标赛扑克非常投入。

So I'm pretty into tournament poker.

太好了。

Excellent.

这些年你见过不少情绪失控的情况，能讲讲你听过或见过的比较有意思的故事吗？

And in terms of what you've seen over the years in terms of tilt and things like that, what are some of the the better stories that you've heard from that side or seen?

有意思的故事？

Some of the better stories.

我正想找个有趣点的，不过第一反应就是和那些非职业玩家一起打现场赛事的时候。

I'm trying to think of something a bit entertaining, but I don't the first thing that just pops into my head though is is, like, is playing these live events with these people that aren't professional players, so to speak.

真正把职业选手和非职业玩家区分开的，就是那些非职业玩家，说白了，情绪完全写在脸上。

And the thing that really separates, like, the pros apart from the guys that aren't pros It's just that, like, these people that aren't professionals are really, for lack of a better better term, like, midgets.

只要输了一手牌，那沮丧劲儿，一眼就能看出来。

Like, if they lose a hand, you just, like it's written all over their face.

你根本不用猜，就知道他们打得一塌糊涂，就等着往里硬冲。

Like, you can just tell that they're just playing horrifically, and they're just basically, like, waiting to get it in awful.

跟这种人对局的时候，简直太明显了。

And like it's when playing against someone like that, it's just so easy to see.

我觉得职业选手特别不能经常陷入这种心态，因为一旦这样，哪怕你真是世界顶尖高手，如果总是发挥出三四成的水平，那根本算不上顶尖。

And I think it just matters so much for a professional to not be in that state of mind often at least because when you are, even if you are like the best player in the world, if you're playing your c game all of the time because of this emotional problem, obviously, you're not one of the best in the world.

你的底线只会降到B-甚至更低，根本赚不到那些情绪更稳、发挥更稳定的选手那么多钱。

You're just going to your baseline is going to be like a b b minus or something like that and you're just not going make as much as the other guys that are playing a little bit better in terms of emotions and stability.

我有个小问题想接着问你。

Let me ask you a quick follow-up question on that.

你去现场的时候，大概有多少玩家属于你刚才说的这种‘中等水平’的？

When you go into the live arena, what percentage of the players would you say fit into this middle midget category?

这得看具体是什么比赛。

It depends a bit on on the field.

比如我刚在洛杉矶参加完比赛。

Like, I was just in in LA, for example.

我当时打的是LAPC，其中有个一千美元的附加赛，连续打了四天。

I was playing LAPC, and one of the main main events there was a thousand dollar side event with, like, four starting days.

我觉得大概有一半的选手都属于这一类。

And, basically, I would say half of the field.

情况就是这样。

It's just like

哇。

Wow.

你知道，我的意思是，这半数的选手基本上就是业余玩家。

You know, I mean and half of the field is really just like your amateur players.

另外，还有一些水平不错的选手，但可能还没适应现场扑克，或者因为各种原因，目前心理状态不佳，这些人都容易把牌输掉。

And then you also get a combination of your better players, but still maybe not acclimated to live poker or they're for whatever reason, are just not doing well mentally at the moment that are going to be able to to give it away too.

所以人数还挺多的，关键其实不在于打得有多神。

So it's it's quite a few and it's really just about like, it's not even really about playing at a sick level.

而是能够控制好情绪，保持一个稳定、不错的发挥水平。

It's just being able to control your emotions in a way where you're playing, you know, a solid okay game.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这真的非常重要。

I mean, it's really important.

上星期我们请了一位嘉宾，他说，比起一个25/50级别的高手打自己的C级对局，一个1/2级别的常规玩家打自己的A级对局，情绪失控带来的损失更大。

We had another guest on the other week saying that he would take a one two reg playing his a game over a twenty five fifty reg playing his c game in terms of the damage tilt can do.

对，完全同意。

Yeah.

我完全认同这一点。

I fully agree with that.

你过去几年在FTOPS联赛排行榜上表现非常出色，这你有目共睹。

And in terms of you've had some really good success, you know, with the FTOPS league leaderboards over the last couple of years.

你觉得，正是你的心态帮助你在那些时期连续赢得多个比赛吗？

Do you think your mindset played a part in your success of winning those multiple tournaments during those periods?

是的。

Yeah.

我确信心态起了关键作用，因为你天天打牌，就能真正看清，锦标赛里偶尔输个小额其实没那么严重。

I definitely think it did because, you know, when you're playing day in and day out, like, you can really you can really put things in perspective about taking, like, a a small beat here and there in tournaments.

那些长期埋头苦打的人，见过太多离谱的事，久而久之就麻木了，反而变得更坚韧。

Like like, the people that have battled in terms of, like, grinding, they've seen some pretty sick shit, and it and it gets them, you know, it gets them kind of numb to it and just like it it makes them stronger.

通常来说，虽然不是每次都这样，但经历多了确实会让人变得更强大，因为他们见过太多离谱的事，久而久之对这种无厘头的坏牌就麻木了，不管你是谁，这行里这种事都躲不掉。

Usually, not always, but usually it makes them stronger overall to where they've seen so many absurd things happen to where they can really like, they have built up that musculature in terms of being somewhat numb to the ridiculous bad beats that just happened in this industry no matter who you are.

你提到这点挺有意思，最近有项针对扑克玩家的心理学研究发现，经验少的玩家更容易反复琢磨那些坏牌和类似的事。

It's interesting that you bring that up because there's some recent psychological research that was done with poker players And what they found is that less experienced players tend to ruminate over, you know, those bad beats and things like that.

而经验丰富的高手则更倾向于自我反思。

Whereas the more experienced or expert players would do more of a self reflection.

当你反复琢磨时，脑子里会不断回放，情绪容易失控。

So when you ruminate, you know, you're going over it in your mind in sort of a tilty way.

但自我反思不一样，你只是问自己：当时有没有更好的做法？

Whereas when you self reflect, you're just saying, was there anything I could have done?

说白了，就是更理性地看待问题。

You know, just more being black and white about it, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这点说得真好。

That's a great point.

说到底，关键就是保持清醒的头脑。

And really, it's just all about, like, straight sanity.

你可以这么想，比如说：

Like like, the the same thing to think would be like, okay.

在这种情况下，我能掌控什么？

Like, what can I control in this situation?

但很多业余玩家恰恰相反，他们总想控制一些根本控制不了的东西——比如牌运。

But a lot of the people that are, like, more your amateur type player or whatever, they are not they're they're really trying to control something that they can't, which is the luck of the car.

他们心里憋着一股火，就因为想改变那些根本改变不了的事，跟普通人一样。

It's like they're getting so boiled up inside because they're trying to change something that they can't control much like anyone in the world.

比如，要是我对生活现状不满意，又无力改变，还为此莫名其妙地生气，那不就是疯了吗？

Like for instance, if I just didn't like my living situation, I didn't like my life and I couldn't do anything about it and I was really just mad about it for no reason, it's like insanity.

对我来说，虽然不是在所有事情上都能这么清醒，但在打牌这件事上，我确实能冷静地回顾自己的决策，看得清清楚楚。

So like like for me, I mean, I'm definitely not seen in all areas of life, but when it comes to poker, like I definitely can look at what it is that I did and see it in a clear perspective.

我觉得这才是顶尖职业选手和普通玩家之间真正的区别。

And I think that's what is really going to separate the top level pro from the average player.

就是能真正冷静地回头看，自己到底哪里做错了。

Just being able to actually, like, seemingly look at, okay, what it is that I did wrong.

因为你如果看不到自己哪里出了问题，就根本没法进步，连改进的起点都找不到。

Because if you're not if you can't look at what you did wrong, there's no way to actually get better from that point because you don't even see a clear starting point.

说到我自己的失误和人们常找的借口，我经常听到玩家说，哎呀，我输是因为在PokerStars提现了，系统给我降了运气。

And I think with one of the things regarding what I've done wrong and the way people blame things, I hear a lot of players talking about the poker superstitions like, oh, I lost because I cashed out on PokerStars and they doom switch me.

我听到这种说法的频率真的很高。

It's how much of the time I hear that.

你怎么看这种说法？

What are your thoughts on that?

这太荒谬了，也正好反映了扑克吸引来的那类人。

It's crazy and it goes with a lot of the people that poker draws into.

说白了，我本身就有成瘾问题，对这种成瘾行为特别有体会。

Like it's really just that like that I'm an addict so I have a lot of experience with addict like behavior and stuff like that.

但不知为什么，我从来就没有那种沉迷赌博的倾向。

But me for whatever reason, I never had the degenerate streak in me in terms of gambling.

我从赌博里得不到快感，完全不是那种类型，但打扑克的人里有太多人是这样的。

I don't get a high from gambling, nothing like that but there are so many people in poker that do.

我敢说，至少有三分之一的人有这种赌博心态，这让他们在打牌时完全失去理性，某些情况下根本没法冷静思考。

I would literally say that it's got to be over a third that have this gambling streak in them that just makes them crazy in ways that they can't use rationale in their poker play or in certain situations they just can't use it.

这其实和迷信没太大区别，简直是一回事，我见过太多这样的人，他们骨子里太爱赌，根本没法用理性去分析牌局。

I mean, is not exactly the point with the superstitions, it's very close actually because I've seen a lot of these guys that they just have so much gamble in them that it's hard for them to like to like, you know, to like put things into rational thought base.

或者在心里形成某种模式，比如‘我之前一取现就输’，‘这手牌在PokerStars总是赢’之类的。

Or not create a pattern in their mind that they're like, oh, but I yeah.

我之前取现了，或者这手牌在PokerStars总是赢，反正就是这类想法。

I cashed out before or this hand always wins on pokestars or whatever else it'd be.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

而且我最近也看到很多老牌职业选手，他们身上就有这种特质。

And and you see that as I've I've seen that very recently with a lot of with guys that like have been long time pros but they just have this streak in them.

我真的不知道该怎么说，因为我很幸运，自己没有这种倾向，但确实有些人就是天生有。

I really don't know what to say about it because I know I'm blessed to not really have it but I know just certain guys just have it.

我想接着问一下，因为你长期支持玩家，回顾这些经历时，你能看出谁有潜力成为顶尖高手，或者一眼就判断出谁根本成不了气候吗？

Well, I was going to follow-up a little bit and ask you because I know you have a long history of backing players and kind of when you look back on that, are you able to see things that, hey, like this person has the potential to become really great or kind of be able to look at someone and say, yeah, this guy is never going to make it.

是的，这和我们刚才说的完全相关。

Yeah, and a lot of it is relating to exactly what we're talking about.

我见过不少天赋异禀的玩家，但因为情绪失控或心理波动太严重，投资他们根本不值得。

I've seen guys with a lot of really raw potential and a raw talent in terms of poker that have a lot of these tilt issues and life tilting issues that just it doesn't make it worthwhile to back them.

通常来说，这都是高风险、高投入的决定。

It's usually a big like it's a high dollar risk situation.

在投资玩家这件事上，关键就是避开这些坑。

And in terms of backing, it's really all about avoiding those those spots.

你不一定非得去找最顶尖的选手，或者追求最大的利润空间，最重要的是尽量减少亏损。

Like you don't necessarily have to be going for like the absolute best players and the absolute you know, the biggest margins of profit, but it's really about minimizing loss.

因为你如果一次性支持五十个人，你的破产风险会比只支持三个人高出很多倍。

Because if you have a high say you back 50 people, your risk of ruin is going to be exponentially higher than if you back say three people.

一旦你真的撞上破产风险，那就彻底出局了。

And if you ever have the chance of hitting that risk of ruin then you're completely out of the game.

所以在这方面，你必须格外谨慎。

So you have to be super, super cautious when it comes to all that.

说到挑选支持对象，我一开始其实特别不擅长。

And in terms of looking what you're going to look for in terms of bagging people, you really have to and I terrible at this at first.

你要看大局，关注那些难以量化的特质。

Like look at the big picture and look at intangibles in people.

就我们刚才说的这些，你一定要找那些情绪稳定、头脑清醒、能理性思考、心理素质过硬的人，说实话，关键就在这儿。

Like in terms of this whole thing that we're talking about, you definitely want to look for people that have fairly good sanity, fairly good sensibility, you know, can can think about things in a rational way and and have that mental strength, which I found that it's that's that's it, really.

真正心理强大的人，往往才是最出成绩的。

I mean, the the guys that are the most mentally strong are the ones that are crushing.

所以出于好奇，你是更倾向于选技术更扎实的玩家，还是选心态更好、可以培养的玩家？

And so out of interest, would you go for a better technical player as a horse or a player with a better mindset that you can then train?

你能理解我的意思吗？

Do you see where I'm coming from?

我的心态确实没问题。

I've got a mindset for sure.

当然，这要看具体情况，比如他水平有多差，心态又有多好。

Obviously, that matters based on certain things like how bad is he and how good is his mindset.

但总的来说，心态对结果的影响真的大得惊人。

But overall, the mindset thing is it's really crazy how much that plays into things.

我主要是通过观察别人来了解这些的，毕竟从内部审视自己并不容易。

I found out the most information about all that by viewing others because obviously it's not super easy to view myself from the internal level.

不过，看别人的表现，心态确实是最关键的。

But yeah, looking at other people, definitely the mindset thing.

真厉害。

Wow.

你从2004年左右就开始混迹扑克圈了吧？

You know, you've been around the poker world seems like since about 2004.

所以你其实是老一辈的玩家了，尽管你年纪还不算大。

So really you're one of like the old school, even though you're still quite young, players.

对于一些刚接触这游戏的听众，你有什么建议吗？

What advice would you give to some of our listeners who maybe are kind of new to the game?

他们怎样才能从不错提升到顶尖水平？

What can they do to progress from good to great?

从不错到顶尖，关键是要理智，别一股脑儿想干太多事。

From good to great, a lot of it really is about being sensible and not trying to do too many things at once.

很重要的一点是别玩得太冒进，别动不动就拿大笔钱去赌。

A great thing is to really keep yourself in the game in terms of not taking out ridiculously big shots, that kind of stuff.

刚开始想赚钱的话，最重要的一点就是选对桌——我们说的赚钱，指的就是这个。

And the number one thing early on, I think for people is in terms of making money, if we're talking about making money here, it's game selection.

我见过太多人了，回头一看，全是这样的情况。

Because I see so many guys, I see so much in back.

太多人就想着：我要玩，我要打那个超级星期二。

So many guys that just, I want to play, I want to play the Super Tuesday.

我想打现场一万块的赛事。

I want to play live 10 Ks.

我想参加这些 prestigious 的比赛，因为这多少有点虚荣心在里头，我能理解，也不觉得这有什么不对。

I want to play these prestigious events because it's some sort of ego thing, which I understand and I'm not knocking.

但从盈利的角度来看，大家真正该找的是那些对手较弱的平台、小额买入的赛事，那些可能没那么出名、但整体期望值高得多的比赛。

But overall, in terms of profitability, people really are going to want to look for playing on the softer sites, the smaller buy in tournaments, the tournaments that maybe not be quite as prestigious, but just overall, the expected value is much higher in them.

我确实经常跟很多客户就这个问题争论。

I actually have that discussion or argument with a lot of clients regarding this.

赢牌不总是看你能不能赢桌上最强的玩家。

It's not always about playing the best poker player at the table.

真正的高手，是那些在职业生涯中能持续找到最有利牌桌的人。

It's the best poker player is the one who finds the best table to play at in terms of over their career.

所以，当你想升级、想积累资金时，千万别为了虚荣心去硬闯那些胜算极低的高风险局。

So, you know, it's certainly as you're looking to move up, you're looking to build a bankroll, you really don't wanna be putting yourself in really high risk spots where the chance of you having an edge is really, really slim just for the sake of ego.

对有些人来说，这真是个很大的挑战。

It it it's a real battle for some people.

还有，Two Plus Two 论坛上很多人说，你这就是在找软饭吃。

And I think two plus two, the forums, people saying, oh, you're just bomb hunting.

你干嘛非要去挑那些难打的比赛？

Why are you looking for tough tournaments?

事实上，真正赚钱的地方恰恰就在这些赛事里，正是在这些地方积累资金，才能为你的职业生涯打下基础。

The reality is that's that's where a lot of the money is made and that's what can set up your career is building a bankroll in those places.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

如果一个人本身已经有足够的资金，那就要看他的目标是什么了。

I I guess it it and if it comes to someone that already has money, I guess it kinda depends on what your goals are.

我认识一些人，他们的目标纯粹是提升牌技，但这种人真的很少见。

Like, I know some guys that, like, their goals are really just to become a better poker player, but that's, like, very rare.

你说得一点都没错。

Like, if you if you're you're exactly right what you said.

如果你是以赚钱来衡量扑克的话，那确实如此。

If you're scoring poker in terms of money one, then yes.

没错。

Absolutely.

我觉得你可以说，虽然我不太想点名，但加斯·汉森已经持续低迷很久了。

Well, you know, I think you could make the argument and and I hate to call anybody out, but Gus Hansen has been on a huge downswing for quite a while now.

从局外人角度看，他似乎在牌桌选择上做得不太好，这可能确实跟自尊心有关。

And it almost seems to me like as an outsider looking in that he just is not doing a very good job with his game selection, and maybe that does have to do with ego.

是的。

Yeah.

我要是随便猜一下的话，我根本不认识他。

I I think if just say taking a random stab, I don't know him at all.

我觉得更多是因为他太爱赌了。

I would say more has to do with the the gambling aspect of it.

很多这类玩家，说白了，就是赌瘾上头才停不下来。

Like, a lot of these guys, like, you know, they they just it that's what puts it the dozen for them.

这事儿不一定跟钱有关。

It's not necessarily about money.

对很多这类人来说，我真的觉得不是钱的问题。

With a lot of these guys, I really don't think it is.

这种心态，不是赌瘾患者根本没法理解。

It's really something that a nongambling addict couldn't see.

他们就是想要那种刺激感，不管输赢都一样。

Like, it's just they really want that rush whether it's winning or losing.

他们非得玩最高的赌注才行。

They need to playing the the biggest stakes.

我其实能明白，也能理解这种感受。

And I and I do actually get that and I do sympathize with it.

所以我觉得很大一部分原因就在这儿。

So I think a lot of it's that.

明白了。

Okay.

然后你谈到扑克中的心理素质。

And then you're talking about the sort of the mental strength in poker.

你经历过最严重的心态崩溃是在什么时候？

Where have you seen your biggest tilt?

你打了这么多年的牌了。

So you played for all of these years.

有没有哪个瞬间让你觉得，我必须得提升自己的心理状态？

Was there a moment where you thought I have to work on my mental game?

天哪。

Oh, god.

我觉得今年早些时候，我在Full Tilt打比赛，进了决赛圈，还剩二十到二十五人的时候。

I would say earlier earlier this year, I was playing on Full Tilt and I was deep in, like, the F tops main with say twenty, twenty five left.

我当时筹码领先非常多。

And I was, like, massive chip leader.

结果我卷入一手牌，率先加注，大盲位三加注，我四加注，他五加注，最后我拿着对六直接全压了。

And I just got involved in this pot where I opened under the gun, the big blind three bet, I four bet, he five bet, and I six bet shoved with pocket sixes.

那简直糟糕透顶。

And it was just, like, beyond awful.

但正是这件事让我彻底醒悟了，这完全是自尊心在作祟。

But it was the the thing that did it for me though, it was an ego thing.

那个玩家我认识，之前还打过不少交道。

Like, was this guy that I had known, I had history with.

我觉得他当时简直疯了。

I thought he was really crazy.

那一刻，我根本不在乎该怎么正确打了，

And it just really it didn't even become so much about playing the correct way anymore.

我只想着不能输给他，这想法简直荒谬至极。

It just was about not losing this ego battle to this guy, which is completely preposterous.

自从开始跟你一起深入解决这些问题后，这种情况已经少多了。

And I I that stuff still happens to me much less so now since I've been working with you and really getting into the depths of of those problems.

不过说实话，对我而言，通常都是自尊心在作怪。

But, yeah, it's usually something ego related for me.

所以你觉得，过去真正拖你后腿的，主要是这种自尊心的问题吗？

So do you feel that was the it was the ego side in the past that was really the big the big sort of thing holding you back perhaps?

是的。

Yeah.

完全没错。

Absolutely.

我真的觉得这就是关键所在。

I I I really think that's the thing.

我觉得这对很多有天赋的选手来说都是这样。

I think it is for a lot of guys that are that are talented players.

我见过太多这样的选手了，他们聪明得不得了，可偏偏被这些不安全感和自尊心拖垮了，根本发挥不出实力。

I I see a lot of these guys that are just like the some of the the smartest guys in the world, but just like this these insecurities and this ego stuff gets them and they and they can't really perform.

我觉得这里面有一点特别有意思。

And I think something's quite interesting there.

有时候人们一提到状态崩盘，脑子里只想到发脾气那种情况。

Sometimes when you talk about tilt, people are thinking about only the rage tilt.

比如说，我在牌桌上并不会失控，但其实有很多其他情绪性因素都在让你输钱。

So let's say but I don't tilt at the table and there are so many different things which really are costing you money at the table which are emotional.

只要是在牌桌上让你亏钱的非理性行为，都属于失控的表现。

Anything that's costing you money at the table and is irrational is a form of tilt.

不管是自尊心作祟、焦虑、愤怒，甚至缺乏动力，都应该算在内。

So you know whether it's ego, anxiety, anger, even lack of motivation really should be considered that way.

抑郁也算在内。

Depression too.

没错，这点说得很到位。

Yeah, that's a good point.

那在你的职业生涯里，最让你失控的一刻是什么时候？

So what would you say was the most tilting moment you've had in your career?

最失控的一刻。

The most tilting moment.

你看，对于

See, for

对我来说，状态失控往往是因为我打得太差。

me, the the tilting things come when I play bad.

这完全是打得不好直接导致的。

Like, it's a direct result of of playing bad.

就算被逆风翻盘，我通常也不会多想，二十分钟内就放下了。

If I get super bad beat in something, I usually don't think about it for more than twenty minutes after it happened.

对我而言，真正让我失控的，是明明有大优势却主动放弃。

So for me, it's like it's just like punting off in big equity spots.

要说最严重的失控，大概就是那次Full Tilt的事了，真的挺糟糕的。

So I would I would say it was probably like that that Full Tilt thing was was really bad.

但说实话，我经历过无数次，明明深陷牌局，却莫名其妙把整个比赛送了出去。

But there's there's honestly been countless times where I've been deep in things and I've just like gift I just punted the tournament away.

埃利奥特说的那番话，我真的很认同，确实很有道理，因为我从不觉得自己容易失控。

And and what Elliot said really really definitely I think has a lot it's very valid because I don't consider myself a tilter either.

就是，我真的不是那种人。

Like, I I just don't.

但要是我认真想想，你刚才提到的那些事，其实都让我在状态不佳的情况下打球，尽管我并没有气得暴跳如雷。

But if I actually if I look at it though, there's so many things that you just listed that have me playing in a bad state even though I may not be like seething with anger out of my mind.

这是一种心理上的问题，确实影响着我。

You know, it's something mental that is definitely messing with me.

我同意。

So I agree.

你刚才说的另一点，我希望能让很多听众印象深刻：输钱并没有让你感到压力。

And the other thing you said there that, I mean, I'm hoping will really stand out to a lot of the listeners is bad beats aren't stressing you out.

它们并没有让你心态崩掉。

They're not tilting you.

当我们跟那些在高注额中表现优异的玩家交流时，真正让他们懊恼的是自己的失误。

And there's a big difference when we're talking to the guys who are being really successful playing the higher stakes, it's the mistakes that upset them.

但当我们跟一些休闲玩家、新手玩家聊天时，让他们抓狂的往往是输掉的牌局。

And when we talk to, you know, some of the other players, recreational players, people coming up, it's the bad beats that have them seething.

我觉得，这正是那些能登上巅峰的玩家和始终无法发挥潜力的玩家之间最大的区别：输牌其实说明你打得不错。

And I think that's a really huge difference between people reaching the top of the game and people who are struggling to ever reach their full potential is that, you know, it's the bad beats mean you're playing well.

这说明你是个职业选手。

That means you're a professional.

只要你把钱投进去的时候手牌占优，就算被翻盘，你也算尽责了。

You've done your job if there's a bad beat because you've got your money in good.

我觉得这在不同类型的玩家之间是个非常关键的区别。

And I think that's a really huge distinction between the player types.

是的，我完全同意。

Yeah, I totally agree.

这几乎又回到了我之前说的自我纠结和自我觉察的区别——休闲玩家一被逆风翻盘就彻底炸毛。

It almost goes back to where I was talking about the self rumination versus the self awareness because the recreational players go bananas when somebody sucks out on them.

但你根本不会在职业选手身上看到这种反应，因为他们清楚，这正是我想要的局面。

And you would just never see that from a pro player because a pro player knows how to put it into the context of that's what I wanted to happen.

不是他们抽牌翻盘那部分，而是我希望他们不得不进入这种必须靠运气翻盘的境地。

Not the suck out part, but I wanted them to have to be in a situation to suck out.

还有件事，马克，在线上平台，你有没有注意到职业选手和休闲玩家之间在情绪失控、聊天室反应，或者被逆风后那些疯狂操作上的巨大差异？

And another thing, Mark, with the online side, do you notice that big difference between the pros and the and the sort of the recreational players in perhaps the tilt the chat box tilting or just like some crazy plays you see after a bad beat.

线上看出来和现场一样明显吗？

Is it as obvious online as you as you see them live?

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，线上可能更明显，因为这些人根本不在乎别人怎么看他们，不怕显得很丢脸之类的。

It's it's it's actually probably more pronounced online because you these people don't have all of the, you know, the fears about like looking like an asshole to someone or whatever.

所以他们在聊天框里就不停地发泄，那种情况下的情绪波动简直太明显了。

So they're just gonna go off in the chat nonstop and it's obviously it's it's very obvious in in those situations.

不过我觉得，现场打牌带来的压力更大，每件事都显得更重要一些。

But I I would say that like something about the the live arena of things put a lot more pressure and and it makes everything a little bit more significant than playing online.

当然，这跟赛事有关，但总的来说，现场看到的情绪失控要严重得多。

I mean, obviously, it depends on the tournament, but mostly I would say the tilt that you see is much worse live.

一方面，现场的业余玩家更多。

One, because you're dealing with more amateur players.

另一方面，就像我说的，这事儿真的挺重要的。

And two, because like I said, like, this is a big deal.

人们早上醒来，洗个澡，收拾好，就是为了来赢这场比赛。

People woke up in the morning, got a shower, got ready, and they wanna go win this tournament.

可一旦有什么事打乱了计划，一整天就全毁了，输赢的分量也重得多。

Then when something messes that up, their whole day is ruined and there's just a lot more at stake.

芬兰刚出了一项有趣的研究，专门分析扑克玩家，发现当他们遇到让人崩溃的情况时，如果有人盯着看，情绪失控的程度会严重得多。

There was just an interesting study that came out of Finland where they looked at poker players particularly and whenever they were exposed to something tilting, the tilt was much worse if they were being observed.

也就是说，有别人在场和没人注意的时候，反应差别很大。

So if people could see them versus if they were not being observed.

真的吗。

Wow.

这太有意思了。

That's really interesting.

这正好印证了你刚才说的。

And it really goes along with what you're saying right there.

我本来就想问你，你既打现场赛也打线上赛，现在听了这些，你怎么看？

I was actually going to ask you since you are in the live arena as well as the online arena and now that I've told you this, what are your thoughts on that?

你刚说完那番话，我立刻想到，可能是他们输的时候，担心别人怎么看待自己，有种恐惧或不安全感。

My thought they me immediately what I thought when you said that is that there's some sort of, like, fear or insecurity about what other people are are thinking about them when they lose.

我觉得很多非职业玩家会误以为，别人看到他们输牌，就会觉得他们技术差。

And I think a lot of probably nonprofessional type of players will incorrectly assume that other people think that they're bad players if they see them lose.

但作为水平不错的玩家，我从来不会这么看。

And for me as a good player, I would never look at that.

我只会去分析他们牌打得怎么样，或者其他具体细节。

I would look at how did they play their hands or or or whatever.

也可能只是单纯害怕输掉，害怕被人当成失败者。

Or maybe it's just something some sort of interfere about, like, just like losing in general and being viewed as a loser.

我觉得这大概才是背后真正的原因。

I think that's probably what is coming into it.

这么说应该挺有道理的。

And if that makes a lot of sense.

我以前还真没这么想过。

And I I actually never thought about before.

这太有意思了。

That's super interesting.

你觉得，网上桌上有大牌玩家和全是陌生人的时候，差别会很大吗？

Does it become very different, say, online if there are big names on a table compared to if they're absolute randomness on a table, do you think?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得对每个人都不一样，但对我而言确实差别很大。

I think it's different for everyone, but for me absolutely.

如果桌上有我现实中认识的人，事情就会变得特别个人化，尤其是当我跟这个人有矛盾、不喜欢对方，或者对方也不喜欢我的时候。

When there's people that I know in real life, it could become a very personal thing, especially if I have some sort of issue with this person or I just don't like this person or they don't like me.

这时候，事情就变成纯粹负面、个人化、让人不舒服的了。

Then it becomes something that is just negative and personal and bad.

我承认，我确实对某些人有过这种感觉。

I admittedly have had these feelings with people for sure.

但这其实背离了游戏的初衷——无论别人怎样，你都应该专注于做好自己。

It just detracts from the purpose of the game to really to do the best that you can for yourself regardless of what's going on with other people.

你有没有想过，另一边的人会不会也这么想？

Do you ever wonder if it's happening on the other side?

比如你坐在现实的牌桌前，对方突然意识到：天啊，Dipthrong在这儿。

So you're sitting at a live table perhaps and the person realizes, oh, Dipthrong's at the table, oh my God.

你懂我的意思吧？

Do you know what I mean?

你有没有因为自己名气大、赢过很多、玩了很多年，而让对手产生心理压力？

Do have anything that plays to your advantage that you're well known, you've won a lot, you've been around for years and years, that could have an impact on some of your opponents?

当然有。

Yeah, for sure.

我觉得最重要的是，得让自己心里别积攒怨气和恐惧这些东西。

And I think really the most important thing with all of this stuff is making sure that you're keeping your own system clear of resentments and fears and stuff like that.

是的，有时候这确实对我有帮助，特别是当我心态好的时候。

So yeah, it does help me at times, especially if I'm in a good place mentally.

如果我和你对局，或者我状态平静，我肯定能充分利用自己的声誉。

So if I had a session with you or I'm in a place of where I'm calm, definitely I think that I would always be able to just benefit from my image.

但如果别人心理状态不好，就容易被这些传言牵着走，比如觉得‘这人太凶了’。

Whereas if someone else, they weren't in a great place mentally, they could let the stories eat them up like, Oh, this guy is super aggressive.

他一直在压着我啊之类的。

He's running me over blah, blah, blah.

其实实际情况可能没他们想的那么严重，只是他们脑子里声音太大了。

When in reality, maybe that isn't quite as pronounced as they actually think it is and it's just kind of their mind being a little bit too loud.

对，你说的‘脑子里声音太大’这点我特别有共鸣。

Yeah, I love what you're saying about the mind being too loud.

真的说到我心坎里了。

That just really resonates with me.

我觉得桌边很多人都脑子里嗡嗡作响，自己都没意识到，可这些杂念确实在影响我们。

And I'm thinking a lot of us at the table have so much buzzing through our heads and we're not even really aware of it, but that chatter is there and it is affecting us.

那你怎么尽量让这些杂念少一点呢？

So what do you do to keep that chatter to a minimum?

我一般就听从那一刻的直觉，顺其自然去做。

What I try to do is I just try to do what my instincts are telling me in that moment.

我会注意到一个机会。

So I'll see a spot.

看到有人加注，接着又有人再加注，我就觉得这是个绝佳的时机，可以直接加注四倍，或者干脆做个虚张声势的 bluff，看具体情况而定。

I'll see where a spot where someone opened and then someone re raised and I really think it's a great spot to throw in a cold four bedder or make a bluff, whatever the situation may be.

我一有这个念头，脑子里立刻就冒出一堆害怕的声音：你会显得很蠢，这太疯狂了，你绝对不能这么做，诸如此类。

So I'll immediately think that, but along with that thought, it'll be all of these voices of fear like you're going to look stupid, this is outrageous, you should never do this, all this stuff.

这时候，我就得选了：是听从内心的真实想法，还是被恐惧牵着走，放弃这个机会，辜负自己。

And it becomes that moment where I can either choose the root of vulnerability and actually going with what I think or the root of fear and passing on the spot and not honoring myself.

这完全看我当天的状态，是不是够清醒，进步到什么程度了。

It just really comes down to if I have it that day or not, how clear I am and how far along I am.

我觉得扑克其实和一个人内在的成长、精神的修行息息相关。

And I think poker is really so much related to your personal spiritual crossing as a human.

我越有信心，就越能毫不犹豫地做出那个决定，因为根本不在乎别人怎么想，也不被那些恐惧牵制。

And the stronger that I feel like I'm getting in terms of confidence in myself, then I feel like the easier it is for me to go ahead and make that move because I don't necessarily care what it is that people are thinking or about any of the fears.

你平时在牌桌外也做了不少这方面的练习。

And you've done quite a lot of that stuff off the table.

你愿意跟我们的听众聊聊这些吗？比如作为一个人，怎么去提升自己？

Do you want to talk to our listeners about those sorts of things, working on yourself as a person?

对我来说，我正在努力做的，就是保持觉知。

I think in terms of me, what I'm trying to do and working with myself as a person is just kind of be conscious.

我最近想多冥想，但说实话，这个世界就是这样，我们总是被推入各种情境，逼着我们成长。

I'm trying to meditate more, but really I feel like the way the world works is we're just thrust into a lot of situations that are going to work us.

关键是要经历这些时刻，同时清醒地觉察正在发生什么，诚实地面对自己：我真的有错吗？

It's really just about going through those situations and trying to be conscious of what it is that's going on and being real with yourself about what is actually going on here like was I actually at fault?

我是不是太幼稚了？

Am I actually being a baby here?

这真的是我自己的问题，却在怪别人吗？

Is this actually something that I'm doing wrong and I'm trying to blame it on someone else?

我觉得这些才是重点。

Those type of things I think.

不过我觉得，对每个人来说，情况都不太一样。

But I think for everyone it's different.

对我来说，这些变化主要发生在过去五年左右吧。

For me, I think it's a lot of it's happened over the past, I don't know, five years or something like that.

这大概就是我作为一个人的成长方式。

That's just kind of how I've progressed as a human.

我相信每个人的情况都不太一样。

So I'm sure it's different for different people.

听上去你正在走向心理学里说的自我实现。

It sounds like you're on your way to what we in the psychology biz call self actualization.

是的。

Yeah.

但愿如此。

Hopefully.

但愿如此。

Hopefully.

另外，关于即将来临的世界系列赛，给准备参赛的人一些实用建议，比如实际该参加多少赛事、怎么安排生活之类的。

And just in terms of some tips for people heading out to the world series as that's coming up, things like, you know, numbers of events people should realistically be playing, lifestyle, those sorts of things.

对于一个线上打得特别顺、第一次参加世界系列赛的玩家，你有什么建议吗？比如在参赛数量、生活方式这些方面，怎么安排才最稳妥？

What sort of tips would you have for an online player who's had a really successful year, it's their first World Series, what would say, you know, what would be the most successful route for them to take?

我肯定会提醒他们注意预期管理。

I would definitely say something about expectations.

一进世界系列赛，看到一堆比赛，就开始盘算能拿多少条手链，这太容易了。

And, you know, it's so easy to go into the beginning of the world series, look at all these events that we're gonna play, count the amount of bracelets that we're gonna win, you know, before it happens.

关键是得现实一点。

And it's just like being real with it.

你知道吗，那些打很多比赛的人，整个夏天可能要参加四十场左右。

You know, we're playing you know, someone that's playing a ton of tournaments is going to be playing maybe 40 tournaments the whole summer.

你甚至能在一个星期天打完这么多场。

You know, you can play that many on a Sunday.

所以，对自己温柔一点也很重要，得好好想想。

So it's really just about being kind to yourself too, think.

我过去就常犯这个错，总觉得自己非赢不可。

And I think I've struggled with that in the past where I'm like, I should be winning.

我本该做到这些的。

I should be doing this.

你知道的。

You know?

犯错的时候也要对自己温柔一点，因为这种事难免会发生。

And and also being kind with yourself when you make those mistakes because it's just going to happen.

你肯定会犯错的。

You're just going to make the mistake.

你总会遇到状态不在巅峰的时候。

You're going to be in situations where you're not playing your A game.

对我来说，我能从这些错误中学到东西，但有时候也会陷入完全消极的情绪，不但没学到什么，反而一直责怪自己。

And for me, I feel like I can learn from those mistakes but I also can just take the complete negative root and not learn from them and just beat myself up on it.

从实际安排来说，我肯定会像大多数人一样，尽量锻炼身体。

In terms of logistically, would definitely say like everyone probably does, definitely try to work out.

如果你有冥想的习惯，那就继续做下去。

If you meditate, obviously do that.

而且要听从自己的身体，有时候我会强迫自己参加某个比赛，其实内心根本不想打。

And just listen to your body because sometimes I just put myself in a situation where I feel like I should be playing this tournament but I don't really want to.

我从来就没在那种状态下赢过比赛。

And that just never I've never won a tournament that way.

我这么说吧。

I'll put it that way.

是的，伟大的阿尔伯特·埃利斯，他曾经是一位认知行为疗法专家，现在已经不在了。

Yeah, the great Albert Ellis who is or was, he's no longer with us, a cognitive behavioral therapist.

他常说，别对自己说‘我应该’。

But he talked about don't should on me.

你刚才说的，就是这个意思。

And you're talking about that.

当你老想着‘我应该做这个’‘我应该做那个’，事情就该是这样”，

When you're I should do this, I should do this, it should be this way.

这就是在对自己施加‘应该’的压力，只会让你过得特别痛苦。

That's shoulding on yourself and it just makes for a miserable experience.