005 罗伯特·德赖斯代尔——心态优势播客

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客第五集，主持人是埃利奥特·罗和特里西亚·卡德纳医生。

Welcome to episode five of the mindset advantage podcast with Elliot Rowe and doctor Tricia Cardner.

特里西亚，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

So Tricia, tell us about yourself.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是特里西亚·卡德纳医生，著有《积极扑克》一书，同时也是扑克玩家、企业高管以及半职业和职业运动员的心理教练。

It's doctor Trisha Cardner, author of Positive Poker and Mental Game Coach to poker players, business executives and semi professional and professional athletes.

我是埃利奥特·罗，是一名催眠治疗师，主要帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

And I'm Elliot Rowe, I'm a hypnotherapist and I work with poker players and UFC fighters.

今天节目里，我们请来了罗伯特·德里斯代尔。

And today on the show, we've got Robert Drysdale.

他拿过六次巴西柔术世界冠军，也打过UFC。

He's a six time world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and also a UFC fighter.

所以今天这场访谈，跟以往有点不一样。

So a bit of a different interview for you guys today.

不过在那之前，Tricia，你今天想跟我们分享点什么？

But before we go into that, what have you got for us today, Tricia?

今天《心理学实用资讯》里，我有个研究要跟你们说，标题有点长，大家耐心听一下：专业扑克玩家的手部动作能准确反映其牌力。

Well, in today's Psychology News You Can Use, I actually have a study called, this is kind of a long title, so bear with me folks, it's Quality of Professional Poker Player's Hands is Perceived Accurately from Arm Motions.

我之所以注意到这个研究，是因为节目的一位朋友扎卡里·埃尔伍德发给我的，他写了《读扑克故事》和《语言扑克故事》，正打算写一篇长文深入分析这个研究。

The way I actually came by this study is a friend of the show, Zachary Elwood, who's the author of Reading Poker Tales, Verbal Poker Tales, sent it to me because he's actually going to write a whole big article dissecting it.

所以我先给你们简单概括一下重点。

And so I just want to give you the couple second overview.

简单来说，研究人员找了一些人，想看看他们多大程度上能读懂对手的‘牌技’。

The bottom line is that they took people and they wanted to see how well they could read tell.

是看脸最重要吗？

And was it most important to look at a person's face?

还是看整个上半身更关键？

Was it most important to look at say just their whole upper torso?

或者真正关键的信息，其实是来自手臂的动作，尤其是他们把筹码推入彩池的方式？

Or was the most valuable information coming from arm movements and specifically the way they moved chips into the pot?

正如大家可能猜到的，扑克玩家非常擅长隐藏自己的面部表情。

Now, as you might surmise, poker players are really good at hiding their facial expressions.

所以面部表情其实没那么有参考价值。

So that wasn't all that valuable.

事实上，无论是看面部还是看上半身，信息量都不大。

And in fact, that and the upper torso, if you saw the whole upper torso, that was not that valuable.

最有价值的线索在于他们如何把筹码推进底池的动作。

What was the most valuable was focusing on how they move their chips into the pot.

哇，看来比起扑克脸，筹码的动作更重要。

Wow, so less about poker face and more about chip movements.

没错，因为大家都会尽量隐藏面部表情，特别是那些玩牌有一段时间的人。

Exactly, because people, they know to keep their facial expressions hidden as much as possible, especially if you've been around poker a while.

对。

Yeah.

但手臂的动作以及你如何把筹码推进底池，反而更能暴露信息。

But the arm movements and how you move the chips into the pot is far more telling.

所以玩家应该做的是，第一，多留意对手的筹码动作；第二，也注意自己往彩池推筹码的方式。

So what players should do is a, start paying more attention to that in their opponents and b, watch what you're doing your own self with the way you move chips into the pot.

对。

Yeah.

这些信息真有意思。

Really interesting information.

对正在现场打球的听众来说特别实用。

Really useful for our live players who are listening.

接下来我们给罗伯特打个电话。

And now we're going to give Robert a call.

正如我所说，他是六届巴西柔术世界冠军。

As I said, he's a six time world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

他是美国历史上最杰出的巴西柔术选手之一。

He's one of the most accomplished Americans in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that there have ever been.

这会很有意思。

It's going be interesting.

我们会和他聊聊心态在这些运动中的重要性，看看扑克玩家能从这位在其他运动中登顶的人身上学到什么。

We're going to be talking to him about how important mindset is in those sports and we're going to be looking at things that poker players might be able to learn from somebody who's reached the top of another sport.

那我们现在就给罗伯特打电话。

So we'll give Robert a call now.

罗伯特，感谢你来参加我们的节目。

So Robert, thanks for coming on the show.

能不能先跟我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己，你是做什么的？

If you could just tell our listeners who you are and what you do.

谢谢你的邀请，埃利奥特。

Thanks for having me, Elliot.

我叫罗伯特·德里斯代尔。

Well, my name is Robert Drysdale.

我练柔术已经十七年了。

I've I've been training jujitsu for seventeen years.

我最早是在巴西开始练的。

I I started in Brazil.

我大概一半的训练在巴西完成，另一半在美国，总体来说在柔术领域还算比较成功。

I've done about half my training in Brazil, the other half in The United States, and, managed to be mostly successful in the field of jujitsu.

我整个成年生涯几乎全身心投入在训练和参加国内外比赛上。

I pretty much exclusively in my whole adult life just training and competing in the national, international scene.

无论是穿道服还是不穿道服，我都参加过。

Gi and no gi.

大约六年前我转战综合格斗，现在效力于UFC。

Made a transition to MMA about six years ago and I currently fight for the UFC.

太棒了。

Awesome.

显然，我们的节目聚焦于心态，以及它在不同运动和活动中的重要性。

So obviously, our our show's about mindset and the importance of that in different sports and activities.

你认为心态对在巴西柔术中取得成功有多关键？

How important do you think mindset is for someone in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to be successful?

这在很多层面上都很重要。

It's it's it's important on a number of different levels.

我觉得这不仅关乎情绪，也关乎战术层面。

I think not just on the emotional side, but on the on the tactical side too.

柔术是一项非常讲究策略的运动。

Jiu Jitsu is a highly strategical sport.

你每时每刻都在做瞬间的判断。

You make split second decisions all the time.

这些瞬间的决定会极大影响比赛的结果。

And those split second decisions will have a tremendous effect on the outcome of the match.

正因为这么讲究策略，你必须头脑清醒，对任何变化都能快速反应。

Because it's so highly strategical, you really have to have a sharp mind, you have to react quickly to everything.

犹豫不决是你最大的敌人。

Hesitation is your worst enemy.

机会窗口非常小，必须抓住。

You got very small windows, you have to take advantage of them.

如果你还在想怎么抓住机会，等你迈步进去的时候，早就晚了。

And if you're thinking about taking advantage of them walking through that window, yes, you're too late.

另一方面，还有情绪层面的问题，比如焦虑、社交压力，以及你给自己施加的压力。

You know, on other side, there's the emotional side, which, know, the anxiety and the social pressure, the pressure you put on yourself.

这完全是另一个维度的挑战。

And that's a whole another dimension.

这两方面都非常复杂。

And they're both very, very complex.

你不可能完全掌控它们，但随着经验积累，你会处理得越来越好。

And it's not something you ever fully mastered, but you get better about it as you go.

你知道的，就像其他事情一样，多练练就好。虽然这个问题可能永远没法彻底根除，但你会越来越熟练，水平也会一步步提高。我觉得柔术最吸引我的地方，就在于它的心理层面，因为这项运动在心理博弈上非常丰富。

You know, it's like anything else, lots of practice, and you never really fully get rid of the problem, you know, but you get better, you get better as you go, and you know, I think that's probably the most exciting thing about Jiu Jitsu to me personally is, it is a psychological aspect because it's such a psychologically rich sport.

我觉得这也是最吸引我的地方。

I think that's probably the thing that attracts me the most.

你说柔术在心理层面非常丰富，这点很有意思。我理解你的意思，就是得预判对手的动作，还得提前制定计划之类的。这其实跟扑克很像，而扑克正好是我的专长领域。

That's very interesting that you say that it's a psychologically rich sport because I kind of think about what you're saying in terms of having to anticipate what your opponent's going to do and having to make plans and things of that nature and it really relates over to poker, which is kind of my area.

所以，你觉得扑克选手去研究一下武术，会不会有什么益处呢？

So having said that, would you see any benefit to poker players perhaps studying the martial arts?

抛开身体层面不说，从心理角度来讲，我经常遇到这种情况，尤其是旅行或者社交互动的时候。

I mean, leaving aside that the physical aspects, I think psychologically, a lot of times I'll tell you one thing that happens a lot with me when I travel or when I just, you know, interact socially.

别人一看你是练格斗的，立马就觉得你是个野蛮人，随时可能扑上去把人撂倒、揍得满脸开花。

People immediately look at you, a fighter, and they assume that you're some caveman who at any moment is gonna, you know, start taking people down and punching them in the face.

他们觉得你完全控制不住自己，对吧？

They assume you're this out of control individual, right?

没错。

Right.

我说真的，有时候我坐飞机，有人看到我就不愿意坐我旁边。

Like I kid you not sometimes I'm flying dark people that won't they won't sit next to me.

真事儿。

True story.

这种事发生过不止一次了。

This has happened to me more than once.

人们会找空乘人员，要求换座位，只要看到旁边坐的是我，你就懂的。

People ask the flight attendant to change like if they can see someone else, know?

而且，是的，这确实让我有些困扰。

And and yeah, it it does have thrust me.

这种事经常发生。

Happens.

但其实，运动员可能是你见过情绪最稳定的一群人。

But in fact, think fighters are some of the most emotionally stable people you ever meet.

他们必须得这样。

Have to be.

你绝不能表现出那种情绪失控的样子，得学会像打扑克那样面无表情。我认识的一些世界顶尖拳手都告诉我，他们其实特别害怕。

You couldn't be that that that individual who's not in control of his emotions and you have to have that you know use an expression of your poker face like you know and I've had some of the most accomplished fighters in the world tell me that they're terrified.

但就是绝不能表现出来。

Just never show it.

就像……怎么说呢，真的，就是要完全活在当下，别去想什么‘哎呀我可能会输’或者‘万一发生这种事怎么办’。别瞎想，就专注当下，让身体自动反应，进入那种忘我的状态。

It's like in like addition oh really, like, just kind of, like, really stay in the moment and not think about the fact of well, you can't think about, oh, I might lose, this might happen, and just not thinking about just not thinking, just being in the moment and kind of going on autopilot and being in the zone.

那种状态下，你根本感觉不到时间的流逝。

It's a zone where you're not really aware of time.

这种状态挺特别的。

It's an interesting place to be in.

我觉得这可能是最极致的冥想方式了。

This I think is the ultimate form of meditation, you know.

你根本感觉不到周围的一切，也不去想别的，整个人就完全沉浸进去了。

You're in a place not really, you're not really aware of your surroundings, you're not really thinking about, it's just, you're just gone.

一眨眼十分钟就过去了，你还会纳闷：才十分钟？

Know, like ten minutes go by and you seem like, what else, ten minutes?

你根本感觉不到时间的流逝。

You're not even aware of time.

是啊，拳手经历的这种心理过程确实很惊人，对吧？

Yeah, it's an incredible process, psychological process that fighters go through, isn't it?

从赛前准备，到赛周，再到像你说的，在垫子上或笼子里，面对观众打比赛，压力会引发一些奇特的反应，比如时间感扭曲。

Sort of the preparation leading up to it, the fight week, and then as you say, the sort of the bizarre circumstances of you're fighting on the mats or in a cage in front of a crowd and as you say, the sort of the stress creates strange things like the time distortion.

对。

Yeah.

但我觉得有意思的是，在心理学里，我们把这种专注到忘我、时间飞逝的状态叫做‘心流’。

But you know, what I think is interesting is in psychology, we we call that when you get in the zone and time seems to fly by like that.

我们管这叫心流。

We call that being in flow.

哦，是吗。

Okay.

我以前听说过这个词。

I I actually heard the expression before.

对。

Mhmm.

我听过这个说法。

I've heard that.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Awesome.

不是。

No.

有意思。

Interesting.

我经常把他们那种状态称为自动驾驶。

I I I call out a lot of from them refer to as auto pilot.

对。

Mhmm.

你知道，确实如此。

You know, it's it's yeah.

你完全进入状态了，根本不在现场。

You're really you're you're you're you're gone.

你根本不是在主动思考，只是在被动回应对手的动作。

You're not really you're just reacting to what your opponent does.

所以，回到你最初的问题，我觉得柔术对任何扑克玩家都会有帮助。

And so, yeah, going back to your original question, think that I I can see jujitsu being of help to any poker player.

任何对心理层面感兴趣的人，其实这更像是一场与自己的较量。

Anyone who's just really interested in the psychological aspect of things, you know, and it's it's really a battle against yourself.

你总以为自己在和对手对抗，但说到底，真正重要的还是你自己。

You you think of yourself, I'm battling my opponent, and, you know, it it it really is more again, more about yourself.

只要你能掌控情绪，坚持自己的策略，始终保持冷静，对手就变得微不足道了。

Because once you're in control of your emotions and you can stick to your game plan, you can stay cool at all moments, your opponent becomes like a very small problem.

说到底，对手其实只是你众多问题里最小的一个。

You know, it really is a small of your problems.

我觉得如果牌桌上，玩家能把对手看成一个小问题，而把自己当成更重要的部分，那会很有帮助。

I think that would benefit poker players if at the table they could look at their opponents as just a small problem and see themselves as like the more important component.

没错，我完全同意。

Yeah, I could see that, absolutely.

关于准备方面，我们确实一直注重心理层面的训练，比如为比赛做准备。

And in terms of sort of the preparation, obviously we've we've worked in terms of mental preparation and things for fights.

你觉得想象比赛场景、制定策略有多重要？又该怎么在实际比赛中把计划落实下来？

How important do you do you find it going through that process of visualising the fight, having that game plan, and then how do you then sort of make that game plan happen in the cage?

我一直都是这样，或多或少算是本能吧，特别喜欢在脑子里预演各种场景。

You know, it's something I've always done, more or less, I guess, instinctively, but I've always visualized a lot.

我喜欢提前做好准备，因为关键时刻的那些瞬间决策，我可不想犹豫。

Like, I like to be ready because when those those split second decisions come, I don't wanna hesitate.

我不希望真到那时候还得琢磨该做什么。

I don't wanna have to think about what I'm gonna do when that happens.

我希望能提前准备好应对方案，随时能直接使出来。

I like to have an answer ready to fire.

虽然我不太懂背后的神经科学原理，不知道大脑里具体怎么运作，但我已经在脑子里反复演练过无数次了。

So, you know, I don't fully understand the neurological aspect of it and what's happening in my brain, but I go through the motions a million times in my head.

我会想象自己的打法，哪些能做、哪些不能做，再看看对手，心里自然就清楚接下来会发生什么。

You know, I imagine, I look at my game and what I can and can't do, and I look at my opponent, and there's like a silent understanding of what's gonna happen.

我知道他想怎么打。

Like, I know what he's gonna try.

他也知道我打算怎么出招，咱们俩都清楚哪儿是危险地带。

He knows what I'm gonna try, and we know where no man's land is.

所以我清楚自己的阵地在哪。

So I know where my trench is.

我知道阵地在哪，也知道无人区会在哪儿。

I know where trench is, and I know where no man's land is gonna be.

所以我明白战斗会在哪里打响。

So I know where the battle's gonna take place.

双方都心知肚明。

We both know that.

基于这一点，我们都制定了策略，我也大概能猜到他会怎么出手，对吧？

And based off of that, we have our strategies and I have an idea of what he's gonna try to do, right?

所以我会在各种可能的情境里预演，想象自己在每一种情况下都能成功。

So I'm considering a number of different situations within that scenario, and I put myself being successful in every single one of those situations.

所以没有固定的战术，因为你根本没法定死一套计划，一出状况就全得推翻。

So there's no fixed game plan because you can't have a fixed game plan because it's gonna go out the window as soon as something goes wrong.

你不可能只靠一个计划打天下。

So you can't have one game plan.

你要做的，是准备好几套方案，同时心里清楚这场较量大概会在哪儿展开。

What you have is a series of game plans with an idea of where the fight's gonna take place.

柔术和综合格斗也是一样的道理吗？

Is that the same for Jiu Jitsu as well as MMA?

因为很明显，在综合格斗里，双方的优缺点都挺明显的，对吧？

Because obviously, in an MMA, the strengths and weaknesses are quite obvious, aren't they?

但在柔术里，情况也一样吗？你能清楚地知道对手的长处和短处吗？

But is it the same so you know what a guy in Jiu Jitsu, what his strengths and weaknesses are as well?

你知道怎么讲吗？

You know what?

说实话，有些人听到这话会有点不高兴，尤其是跟一些MMA粉丝说的时候，但我认为柔术在策略性上要强得多。

I I like, some people like that you get almost mad at when when you say this to some MMA fans, but I think Jiu Jitsu is far more strategical.

在智力和心理层面，柔术的战术内涵远比MMA丰富。

When it comes to the intellectual side and the psychological the the the tactical aspect of Jiu Jitsu is far richer than than the one in MMA.

MMA在战术上其实没那么复杂。

MMA tactically is very it's not that complicated.

很多时候我听到别人说某个人是位出色的战略家，我听着他们的策略分析，心想：这些我在柔术蓝带时期就全懂了。

Like a lot of times when I hear people talking about how that guy's a brilliant strategist and I'm listening to the strategies, I'm like, I know that stuff when I was a blue belt in Jiu Jitsu.

真的没那么复杂。

Like it's not it really isn't that complicated.

我觉得可能是因为柔术里有得分和优势的概念，这给比赛增加了一层 MMA 所缺乏的策略维度。

I think that perhaps because there's there are points and advantages involved in Jiu Jitsu, It adds a new element of strategy that lacks in MMA.

回到可视化训练这个话题，我特别喜欢做的一件事，而且一直都有在做——你也帮过我很多——就是闭上眼睛，有时候也睁着眼，在脑海里过一遍动作流程。

But going back to visualization thing, one thing I like to do a lot, and I've always done this, I've worked with you and you've helped me a lot with this, has been just like, I'll I'll close my eyes, sometimes with my eyes open, and I'm just going through the motions.

我会在脑子里反复推演那个动作，考虑所有可能出现的情况，并且为每一种情况都准备好应对方案。

I think about that move over and over my head, all the possible scenarios, and I have good answer for every single one of those scenarios.

所以当那种情况真的发生时——而且通常都会发生，那些可能的场景大多会出现——我早就有现成的对策了。

So when that situation does occur, and it normally does go, it normally happens, the likely scenarios normally do occur, I have an answer ready.

我不是说，哎呀，我现在该怎么办？

I'm not saying, Oh, what am I gonna do now?

你知道的，那种犹豫不决的情况是不会出现的。

You know, there's no that hesitation can't be either.

我知道自己接下来该怎么做。

I know exactly what I'm gonna do.

因为这种情形我经历过无数次了。

Because I've been there a million times.

我早就反复琢磨过这种情况了。

I've thought about that situation so many times.

所以我强烈建议所有人都这么做，无论从事什么运动或竞技项目。

So that means I highly recommend that to people in general, I think in all sports and all competitive endeavors.

我会教我的学生这么做。

I teach this to my students.

我告诉他们一定要去练习。

I tell them to do it.

我发现有些人做起来比别人更容易。

I noticed that some people have an easier time than others doing this.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得确实是这样。

I think that's really true.

有些人想象起来会更容易一些。

Some people, the visualization comes more easily.

我从运动心理学的角度补充一点，当我们想象肌肉运动时，大脑的神经回路其实真的会活跃起来。

I just, you know, make a comment on that from a sports psychology standpoint, we know that when you are visualizing those muscle movements, the brain circuitry actually fires.

所以哪怕你只是在脑海里想象，并没有真正去练，大脑的反应就像你真的在做那个动作一样。

So even though you're imagining it and you're not doing it, the brain fires as if you were physically doing it.

我一直以来都是这么想的。

That's exactly how I always felt about it.

就像很多人一样，他们特别喜欢反复练习。

Like a lot of people, they've always liked to drill.

他们会把一个动作重复上千遍，但我从来都没这么干过。

Like, they'll repeat a move like a thousand times, and I've never done any of that.

说真的，我这一生都没反复练习过任何一个动作。

Like, I literally never drilled a single move in my life.

但我一直做的，就是在脑子里把动作重复上百万遍。

But one thing I've always done was repeat the move in my head a million times.

比如练完回家开车时，就在脑子里一遍又一遍地过那个动作。

Like, I'd be driving home after practice and just going through the move, like, and over and over and over.

第二天一上场，就能直接用出来了。

And next thing the next day, I'd be using it.

我觉得我能体会到这一点。

I feel like I could see that.

其实有个练习我一直做，也教给我的学生。

Like, my nervous system is ready for that part to take it because I I well, there's one exercise I do, and and and I teach this to my students.

我觉得很多人在这方面挺难理解的。

I think that, you know, and then I see some people have a hard time to know this.

但我喜欢做的，就是想象自己在做这些动作。

But one thing I like to do is I like to see myself doing them.

我会想想那些我特别拿手的动作。

I'll think about a move that I'm good at.

每次我闭上眼睛，想象自己做那个动作，我都能在脑子里完美地完成它。

And every time I close my eyes and I see myself doing that move, I can execute it in my mind no problem.

对吧？

Right?

然后我会想一个我不擅长的动作。

And then I say about a move that I'm not good at.

比如有些动作，从我开始训练以来就一直很难掌握。

For example, something there are moves that I've had a hard time with since I started training.

它们就是怎么都学不会。

It just don't come easily to me.

我闭上眼睛，试着想象自己在做那个动作。

And I close my eyes and I try to see myself doing it.

但我根本想象不出来。

I have a very hard time visualizing it.

我在脑子里就是看不到那个画面。

Like I can't see it in my mind.

就像我试图在脑海里重现那个动作，但就是卡住了。

Like I'm trying to make it happen in my mind and there's just a block.

对吧？

Right?

有些动作确实会这样。

And that happens with some moves.

我也不明白为什么有些动作我学起来很轻松，而有些却特别难。

And I don't know why some moves come easy, some others, you know, I have a hard time with.

但就像我常说的，如果你能在脑海里清晰地看到整个过程，你就能在实战中做到。

But like I normally say, if you can see it in your mind and you can see the entire sequence in your mind, you can do it live.

我完全同意。

I agree with you a 100%.

不过，我能再问你个问题吗？

But you know, can I ask you something else?

对于那些对柔术不太熟悉的听众，据我了解，柔术的黑带是最难拿到的。

Just for our listeners who are not as familiar with Jiu Jitsu, my understanding is that it's the most difficult black belt to get.

你能说说一个人要怎么才能拿到柔术的黑带吗？

Can you just talk about like the process that someone would go through to earn a black belt in jujitsu?

我觉得其中一部分可能确实如此。

I think that maybe some of it has.

首先，腰带这东西是西方的发明。

First of all, belts are a Western thing.

它并不是源自亚洲的，你知道的。

They're not an Asian You know?

我们总觉得它是亚洲的，其实根本不是。

We we think of them as being Asians, but they're really not.

它是地地道道的西方产物。

They're they're Western.

当年武术传到西方的时候，人们就想：这东西怎么才能赚钱？

Like, when when martial arts were brought to the West, they we thought, how can we make money with this?

于是我们就想出了这个办法。

And we went, okay.

腰带是个赚钱的好办法，因为人们喜欢那种‘我在进步’的感觉，腰带就是这种进步的标志。

Belts are a great way of making money because it gives people people like to feel that, oh, I'm making progress, and the belt is a symbol of that.

对吧？

Right?

问题在于，这行当已经变得商业化得很厉害了。

And the problem is that a lot of it has become commercialized.

在武术界，原本的核心内容越来越被稀释，标准也越来越低了。

It's about at martial arts, the original product has become more and more diluted, and the standards would lower.

这是泛指所有的武术。

And this is martial arts in general.

我说的就是柔术。

I'm talking to Jiu Jitsu.

我是说所有这类武术。

I'm talking to all of them.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know?

因为人们只想听他们想听的话。

Because people want to hear what they want to hear.

他们不想听他们真正需要听的内容。

They don't want to hear what they need to hear.

所以学生们不愿意听到你说，你还没准备好。

So students don't want to hear, oh, you're not ready.

还得再等一年。

You got to wait another year.

他们不想听这些。

They don't want to hear that.

他们只想听你说，你做得很好。

They want to say, you're doing great.

你太棒了，伙计。

You're awesome, buddy.

给你，约翰尼。

Here you go, Johnny.

有黑带，你知道吧？

There's a black belt, you know?

然后，然后，然后，这有点像马歇尔的精神。

And then and and and that's kind of like the spirit of Marshall.

不幸的是，这就是那种精神。

Unfortunately, that's the spirit.

所以很多纪律和刻苦努力都丢了，取而代之的是，我不想失去一个学生。

So a lot of the discipline and the hard work's been lost in favor of, I don't wanna lose a student.

说实话，这事儿我本来该收你钱的，但我现在给你打个电话。

In fact, I'll just charge you money for this, but I'll now give you a bell.

柔术主要是在巴西发展起来的，它从来就不是个商业项目。

Jiu Jitsu because Jiu Jitsu evolved in largely in Brazil and it was never a commercial enterprise.

它从来没让任何人赚过钱。

It was never profitable for anyone.

练柔术的人，纯粹是出于热爱。

Anyone who was doing Jiu Jitsu was doing it for love.

现在那边倒是能赚钱了，但跟这边完全没法比。

Now it's sort of profitable over there, but it's nothing like over here.

所以某种程度上，正是因为练柔术能赚钱，反而让这项运动保持了纯粹。

So in a way, the fact that you can make money from Jiu Jitsu kept the sport pure.

因为如果学员想离开馆子，对你来说也没多大影响。

Because if your student wanted to leave the gym, it really didn't make that big of a difference.

那时候你根本不会为了腰带收钱，反正他也不会掏。

Because then you would never charge him for belts because he would never pay.

你懂的。

You know?

所以它保持了纯粹，只有真正练到那个份上的人，才会被升段。

So it kinda kept it pure in the sense where people only got promoted when they really, really earned it.

有时候，拿到黑带花上十年都很正常。

Like, some times, like, it's normal to take ten years to get a black owned Jiu Jitsu.

这一点都不稀奇。

It's not unusual.

我练了十五年。

I know fifteen years.

你知道，有些人花的时间更短，而且情况变得越来越水，尤其是因为柔术作为一项运动发展起来了，商业化也越来越严重。

You know, some people get it in less time and it's becoming more and more diluted, but especially because Jiu Jitsu has grown as a sport, it's become commercialized.

所以就像我刚才说的，大家特别怕流失学员，于是就把人升得越来越快。

So people are like I said, people they they're terrified of losing students, so they keep promoting people faster and faster.

不过我觉得这跟技术层面没什么关系，难度并没有因此增加。

But I don't think it's harder because there's anything it's nothing I don't think there's anything to do with the technical side of things.

我觉得任何武术都可以非常复杂。

Think that any any martial art can be extremely complex.

我认为柔术因为主要在巴西发展，而且从来都不是盈利的，所以这项运动保持了纯粹性。

I think that Jiu Jitsu because it developed largely in Brazil and it was never financially profitable, it kept the sport pure.

我觉得这也是让标准保持较高的原因。

And I think that's the one thing that kept standards higher.

你知道，很多练柔术的人来自那个柔术还不赚钱的年代。

You know, I think a lot of people that train Jiu Jitsu and they they come from that generation where Jiu Jitsu wasn't profitable.

他们对柔术抱有非常理想化的看法。

They're very idealistic about Jiu Jitsu.

他们不会随便给人升段。

They don't promote people like they don't.

他们会故意压着不升。

They hold them back.

我可以这么说，我就是这种人。

I'm I I can say I'm one of those.

我会故意不给我的学生升段。

Like, I hold my students back.

他们有时候会生气。

I get they get mad.

也有学生因此离开了健身房。

I have students to leave the gym.

他们还是会来参加我的腰带考核。

They come to my belt test.

他们考不过，就离开道馆了。

They fail and they leave the gym.

他们还会生气。

They get angry.

这确实让我在经济上受了损失，但我总觉得柔术就该有它应有的样子，而不是看隔壁邻居会怎么做。

And it hurts me financially, but I guess I have that idealistic view of what it ought to be and not what it not the not what my next door neighbor's gonna do.

比如，哦，他是那种人，会很快给人升级。

Like, oh, he's that guy's gonna promote him really quick.

你知道的，其实很多人跟我看法一样。

I you know, and there are a lot of people that feel the same way I do about it.

说实话，我不敢说这是大多数教练的想法，但可能接近一半吧。

A fact, I'd say, I wouldn't say it's the majority of instructors, but maybe close to half.

我觉得正是这一点，让这项运动保持了纯粹。

And I think it's the one thing that keeps the sport sort of, you know, pure.

那达到黑带水平之后，再往上走到像你这样参加世界级比赛并赢得黑带组冠军的阶段，这两者之间有什么区别呢？

And and what's the difference between someone who does achieve that black belt level and then the next stage up to someone who competes on the world level like you do and wins the competitions of the black belts?

你觉得是什么让人能达到那个水平？

What do you think sets someone apart to to reach that level?

区别就在于，有些人拿了黑带，但能拿冠军的黑带，那是不一样的。

Well, difference between just the price, someone who gets a black with who's gonna win titles with the black

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

这很难说，我以前总觉得没有差学生，只有差教练。

It's it's hard I used to believe that there were no bad students, there were only bad teachers.

我觉得这种心态很好，因为它逼着你成为最好的教练。

And I think that's a good mindset to have because it really pushes you to be the best instructor you can be.

不过话说回来，我不确定这完全对。

With that being said, I I'm not sure that's entirely true.

在先天和后天的争论中，我一向更偏向先天因素。

I think that on the whole nature nurture debate, I've always leaned towards, you know, nature.

我觉得吧，你看那些很小就开始练的孩子，有些小孩天生就带点天赋。

I think, you know, I see students that walk at a young age, from a young age, you see some kids, they just have it.

他们身上有种别的孩子没有的东西。

They just got something the other kids don't.

那就是心态，还有运动能力，他们眼里总带着一种‘我就是要赢’的劲头，不过这通常得过了某个年龄阶段才能看出来。

It's the mindset, the athletic ability, it's they just got this I'm gonna win look in there, you know, and it's normally after certain age.

年纪太小的话，还真看不出来。

Really young, you don't see that.

我总觉得，小孩子在很小的时候，脑子里就被灌输了要竞争、要赢的观念。

I always think that kids at a very young age, they kind of have it hammered into their heads to be competitive and win.

其实小时候他们就是图个开心。

At a young age, they're just having fun.

但有些人确实有天赋，学东西比别人快。

But some people just have that talent for learning things a faster rate than others.

挺可惜的，我觉得这就是体育运动的本质。接下来孩子怎么利用这份天赋，就看他们自己的选择了。成年人也是一样的道理。

And it's unfortunate, I think it's the nature of sports, you know, and then it depends on what the kid is gonna do with his palate, you know, and and you see this with adults, of course, it's the same thing.

有经验的教练通常心里已经有数，知道谁有潜力，谁不行。

And any any experienced instructor kinda has has a good idea already who's gonna go for and who isn't.

不过话说回来，偶尔也会有意外惊喜。

Well, that being said, you get surprised every now and then.

时不时就会碰到那种你一看就觉得没戏的孩子，结果完全颠覆了你的判断。

Every now and then, you'll see someone you look at them, there's this kid's not going anywhere, and, you know, your whole theory is about, okay.

你自以为看准了谁能走多远，结果却弄巧成拙。

I know who's gonna go far and who's not, and it backfires.

你懂的？

You know?

偶尔也会有那种让人惊喜的例子，比如他虽然没天赋，但靠极强的自律把短板补回来了。

Every now and then, there's that that surprise case, and it's, like, true Like, he'll make up for the fact he has no talent with outstanding discipline.

这种情况确实存在。

That does happen.

这种故事挺励志的，我们也爱讲，虽然只是少数情况，但确实有。

Like, those it's it's a good story, you know, and we like to tell well, it's a minority of cases, but they do happen.

你懂的。

You know?

就是那种明明没天赋，却每天去健身房练两次，坚持了十年，结果一下子爆发的人。

You got that guy has no talent, but he's in the gym every day twice a day, ten years later, boom.

最后确实变得很厉害。

We got good.

不过我觉得，真正能取得成功的根本区别在于，这些人对自己并不满足。我觉得这在生活的方方面面都是如此。

But, you know, I think that the fundamental difference is, I think the people that go on to be successful, I think this goes for anything in life in general, is that people don't they're not really content with themselves.

有一种近乎执念的东西，我说不准是不是该叫执念，但确实有一种深深的、对现状和所知感到不满的感觉。

There's something that's almost borders on, there's this obsession, I don't if obsession is the word, but there's this profound feeling of being unhappy with where you are and what you know.

你知道，总觉得不够。

You know, there's like, it's not enough.

总觉得不够。

It's not enough.

我觉得有些人会想，好吧，我心里有个填不满的黑洞。

I think some people go, okay, I got a black hole.

我现在能喘口气了。

I can breathe now.

我没事了。

I'm good.

但还有另一类人，觉得这还不够。

And then there are other people like, that's not enough.

这还不够。

It's not enough.

总觉得还不够。

It's not enough.

有时候我跟别人这么说，他们可能觉得我在吹牛，但我确实觉得自己懂得不多，总觉得知道的还是不够。

And you know, sometimes I tell people this and they think I'm full of it when I say it, but I don't feel like I'm very knowledgeable and just I don't feel like I know enough.

我觉得正是这种心态让我每天都坚持去健身房。

And I think that's what keeps me in the gym every day.

你知道的，就是每次练完回家，我都觉得自己练得还不够狠。

You know the fact that when I go back home I don't feel like I train hard enough.

有时候我就想，天啊，我本可以再打一轮的，或者我知道刚才那个回合我输了，被摔倒了，诸如此类的事。

Sometimes it's like man I didn't I could have done another round or I know I lost that exchange and I got taken down or whatever.

有些人天生就有这种好胜心，有些人却没有，我觉得这可能才是关键。

Like some people have that competitiveness in them and some people don't and I think that's probably the main thing.

我想用‘自尊’这个词，但不是那种负面的、傲慢的意思。

I want to use the word ego but not ego in a bad sense, not in the sense where you're arrogant.

我说的自尊，是指一种指向自己的内在驱动力。

When I say ego I mean in the sense where you're not really there's this drive aimed at yourself.

这种驱动力指向你自己，脑子里总有个声音在说：还不够好，你还不够拼命。

Aimed at yourself and there's a little voice inside your head telling you it's not good enough, you're not trying hard enough.

是啊，你这么说特别有意思，因为我对专家级表现的研究文献很熟悉，真正让人卓越的核心因素，就是你讲的这个。

Yeah, that's just so interesting that you say that because I'm real versed in the research literature on expertise and basically what makes somebody great at whatever the endeavor and it's just what you're talking about.

就是那种近乎执念的状态，总想着再往前多走一点，再往上多爬一点。

It's having almost that obsession where you just always reaching for just a little bit more and a little bit higher.

这完全就是你描述的那种状态。

And that sounds exactly like what you're saying.

对。

Yeah.

我在想，这其中有多少是出于自由意志？这个问题一直困扰着我。

Wonder how much of that is, like this is the question that gets me, how much of that is free will?

又有多少是天生的性格使然呢？

How much of that is just the way you are?

你知道的，这就是我想问的。有些人天生就有这种特质，而有些人则不然。我在想，是不是对某些人来说，这种特质更容易培养或显现出来。

You know, like how much of that is, like that's the question, it's, you some people just have it, you know, and some people, I wonder if it comes easier to some people than others.

我觉得这是个很有意思的话题，而且我确实在我的学生身上看到了这一点。

And I think it's a fascinating topic, but I definitely see that in my students.

我也在其他职业运动员身上看到过这种情况。

I see with other professional athletes I've done this.

我觉得至少对我自己来说，心里总有个声音在说：还不够好，还不够好，还不够好。

There was that, I think there was like some, there's a little theme, at least with myself speaking for myself, is in the back of my mind, there was a little voice telling me not good enough, not good enough, not good enough.

那确实能一直激励着你前进。

Well that'll sure keep you going.

对，我就喜欢这样。

Yeah and I like it like that.

其实我心里也有点难过，因为人永远没法真正满足。

There's a part of me like it's sad in a way too because you're never really content.

这事儿挺让人感慨的，因为总觉得还没到‘我现在挺好了’那种状态。

There's something sad about it because there's never like, okay, I'm good now.

你很难获得真正的成就感，因为总觉得还不够好。

You don't really get satisfaction of anything because it's not good enough.

今天拿了金牌，第二天又怎样？接着去比下一场呗。

You win a gold medal today on the next day like big deal, walk to the next one.

其实你也享受不到什么乐趣。

You don't really enjoy anything.

我心里总有个声音，希望自己能像别人那样喜欢这些。

There's something that that's very, there's a part of me that wish I would like this.

我也希望能更享受自己的成就，但现实是，心里总有个声音在说，你得再多做一点，再更努力一点。

I'm be able to enjoy accomplishments more but like this, this is just constant feeling of like you have to do a little bit more, you gotta try a little bit harder.

听起来这对你来说是一辈子的执念，短期内是放不下了。

Well, it sounds like this is a lifetime obsession for you that's not going to go away anytime soon.

我很享受，说来有点讽刺，我整个成年生活都在做这件事，而且我根本不想做别的。

I enjoy, it's ironic that been doing this my entire adult life and there's nothing I'd rather do.

有时候我回想起过去，我的青春并不普通，没怎么出去玩过。

Sometimes I look back and I didn't have a normal youth like I didn't go out and part.

我整个青春都在训练，你知道的，整天泡在健身房里。

I spent my entire youth training, you know, I was inside the gym.

有时候我回头想想，要是当初选别的路，也许会不一样。

Sometimes I look back, I wonder, I could have done this, could have done that.

但一想，没什么比柔术更值得的了。

And I'm like, there's no way none of that is better than Jiu Jitsu.

柔术是人生中最酷的事之一，当然我有偏见，但我真想不出还有什么比这更值得花时间的。

Jiu Jitsu is about the coolest thing you can do in life, know, and of course of course I'm biased, but I can't think of anything better to do with my time.

从这方面来说，你现在也开始教别人训练了。

And, you know, from that side of things, you've you've now started training people as well.