007 Zach Elwood – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《思维优势》播客第七期，嘉宾是特里西亚·卡德纳医生和埃利奥特·罗斯。

Welcome to episode seven of the Mindset Advantage podcast with Doctor Tricia Cardner and Elliot Rose.

特里西亚，这周你又带来一个新发现吧？

So Tricia, you've got another fact for us this week.

是什么样的发现？

What have you got?

我有个小心理学消息，对大家都实用，而且特别有意思。

I've got a little psychology news we can all use, and this one is a tasty little bit.

最近，《营养、健康与衰老杂志》发表了一项研究，发现每天吃一小把核桃，能提升记忆力、专注力，还能加快大脑处理信息的速度。

Recently, a study was published in the Journal of Nutrition, Health and Aging, and they found that if you eat a handful of walnuts each day, it improves memory, concentration, and the speed at which the brain processes information.

哇，这成本也太低了吧。

Wow, that sounds like quite a cheap fix.

确实便宜得离谱。

It's a very cheap fix.

这项研究特别有意思的地方在于，他们调查了各个年龄段的人。

And what was interesting about this study is they looked at all age groups.

他们研究的对象从20岁到90岁都有。

They had people from age 20 to age 90.

各个年龄段都有效果。

And it was across the board.

每天吃核桃的人，认知能力都有所提升。

People who ate the walnuts had improved cognitive performance.

目前我们还不完全清楚具体原因，但可能性很多，因为核桃富含抗氧化物，含有大量ALA——也就是α-亚麻酸，还有多种维生素和营养成分。

So we don't exactly know why they're beneficial as yet, but there's a lot of possibilities because they're high in antioxidants, they're high in ALA which is alpha linolenic acid and then they have a ton of other vitamins and nutrients.

说到底，如果扑克玩家想找点小零食帮大脑更灵光一点，核桃大概就是最佳选择了。

But at the end of the day, if poker players are looking for a good little snack that might help their brain work a little better, walnuts seem to be the answer.

太棒了。

Excellent.

所以别再吃糖果棒了，去买点核桃吧，赢钱的机会都多了。

So put down the candy bars out there and go and get some walnuts and you'll win more money.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

没错，今天节目的嘉宾是扎克·埃尔伍德。

Right, so on today's show, we've got Zach Elwood.

他写了《解读扑克表情》和《解读语言信号》这两本书。

He's coming on, he's the writer of ReadingPokerTells and ReadingVerbalTells.

我们请他来，是想从另一个角度聊聊扑克中这个小众但非常关键的领域——只要掌握一点点信息，就能帮你减少自己暴露的信号，或者更幸运的话，看穿对手的破绽，从而在整场比赛中赢钱。

And we thought we'd have him on the show just to give another side of one of these niche parts of poker where people can really improve their game by just learning a small amount of information that might allow them to reduce any tells that they're giving or perhaps, if you're lucky enough, see or tell an opponent that might print you some money over the series.

那我们现在就给扎克打个电话。

So here we'll just give Zach a call.

扎克，谢谢你来参加我们的节目。

So Zach, thanks for coming on the show.

能不能先向我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己？

If you could just introduce yourself to our listeners.

我是扎克·埃尔伍德，写过几本关于扑克信号的书。

I'm Zach Elwood, and I wrote a couple of books on poker tells.

我写了《解读扑克表情》，2012年出版的，后来在去年，也就是2014年，又出了《语言信号》这本书。

I wrote ReadingPokerTells, which was released in 2012, and then Verbal PokerTells, was released last year in 2014.

我还在 readingpokertells.com 上坚持写了几年博客，也给《Bluff》杂志写过文章。

And I've kept a blog for a few years at readingpokertells.com and I wrote for a Bluff Magazine.

以前我每个月都写专栏，现在他们转成线上了，更新没那么频繁，但我还是在给他们写关于扑克微表情的专栏。

I write a monthly column a little bit less now, less frequently now that they're only online, but I write a poker tells column for them.

是的。

Yeah.

差不多就是这些了。

So that's pretty much it.

我以前是职业牌手。

And I used to play professionally.

现在不打了，但曾经连续打了三年职业比赛，而且

I don't I don't do so anymore, but I played professionally for three years and

那你是怎么决定转去做扑克微表情研究的呢？

that's And pretty much where did the decision to move into poker tales come from?

毕竟这领域太小众了。

Because it's obviously a very niche market.

我觉得主要原因在于，我看了市面上那些书，比如卡罗斯和纳瓦罗的著作，总觉得关于扑克读心术的研究还没达到我心目中应有的水平。

I think mainly it was because out of the for the reason that when I looked at the books that were out there, the books that I had read, you know, Caros and Navaros, Mainly, it was it was a reaction to feeling like the work that was being done on poker tells wasn't living up to what I thought it could be.

我打职业 poker 的那几年，大概是 2003 到 2006 年，就一直觉得这方面的研究还能做得更多。我脑子里有很多想法，一些我跟人讨论过的技巧，还有一些我自己知道但从来没人写过的东西。

And back when I played for a living, was around 2,003 to 2,006, I was always thinking, you know, there could be more done on poker tells, and I had planned I had ideas of, you know, things I'd use and things that I talked to people about, and some things that I knew about that I'd never seen written about.

所以我一直有个念头，也许哪天我可以写本书，但又总想着，肯定会有更资深的人先写出来吧。

So I'd always had kind of had this idea in my mind, you know, maybe maybe I could write a book, but I I was always thinking, oh, somebody else somebody else more experienced is gonna write it, you know?

结果几年过去了，居然没人写过这样的书。

And so then, you know, a few years later, nobody had written such a book.

我就想，行吧，那我来试试看。

And so I was like, okay, I guess I guess I'll try doing it.

所以，这基本上就是我写这本书的由来。

So that's pretty much what led to it.

我可没觉得自己在扑克读心术上有多天才。

And it wasn't like I thought I was a genius at pokerTells or anything.

我只是觉得，我能写一些别人从来没写过的内容。

Was more like, you know, I I I thought that I would be able to write about some things that nobody had ever written about before.

我并不是觉得我写的这些东西是前所未有的，毕竟凭我的经验，我知道很多人都会想到这些，我只是想试着把这些东西传达给更多人。

And it wasn't like I thought that I was writing about things that nobody ever thought about before because I know from experience that people think about these things, but it was more like, I guess I'll be the guy to try to communicate this to the masses.

你观察扑克微表情的经验真的太丰富了。

So you've had so much experience just looking at poker tells.

在你见过的那些微表情里，哪些最让你感到意外？

What kind of tells just surprise you the most when you see them?

说实话，那些特别明显的信号反而最让人惊讶，因为有时候你会想，真有人会这么直白地表现出来吗？

I guess, you know, I mean, you know, the really obvious tells are always surprising because some of the really obvious ones you're kind of like, wow, are people really going to be this obvious about it?

比如说，有人在考虑跟注的时候，会下意识地摆弄筹码，做出一副要跟的样子。

Sometimes you see, like, I guess an example would be defensively playing with your chips, like you're going to call a bet or something.

这种行为在低注额的牌局里特别常见，当你准备下注时，对方一做出这种动作，基本就说明他手牌很弱。

That's one major one you see at a lot of one-two games as somebody threatens to put the call in when you're thinking of betting and that's just always going to be weak.

当然，他们最后也可能真的跟了，这种情况也不是没有。

They might still end up calling you, of course, which sometimes they do.

每次看到两五块或更高注额的牌局里有人这么做，我都觉得挺意外的，而且我在更高 stakes 的牌桌上也确实见过不少。

It's always surprising you see a two five game or higher and you're like and then I've definitely seen it at significantly higher stakes.

你心里难免会想，天啊，这人真的在玩这么高的注码吗？

And you're kind of thinking like, wow, is this person really playing at these stakes?

看着像个老手，却还犯这种错误，真是让人纳闷。

It seems to be a regular player and is still doing this, you know?

对我来说，最让人意外的就是这种事了。

So I'd say like that kind of thing is is most surprising, you know, to me.

我知道你后来跟十一月九号那天的一位选手合作了，是吧？

I know you ended up working with one of the players for November 9, didn't you?

如果你能跟我们说说

If you could tell us

关于阿米尔·拉哈特，他参加过2013年的WSOP主赛事。

about Amir Lhavat, he was in the twenty thirteen WSOP main event.

就在十一月九号决赛桌开始前不久，他给我打了个电话，我特别荣幸。

I was very flattered to get a call from him right before the not long before the November 9 was taking place, the final table.

他读过我的书，大概是为决赛桌做准备，想请我当他的扑克读牌顾问，帮他分析对手和他自己。

And he had read my book, I guess, in preparation for the final table, and he wanted me to act as a poker tells consultant basically and study his his opponents and himself.

你知道吗，决赛桌前那些现有的录像素材，对大多数选手来说其实并不多。

You know, the existing footage leading up to the final table that was that existed, wasn't that much for for most of the players.

决赛桌期间，我还建了个Skype群，时不时把我的想法发过去。

And also during the during the final table to, you know, wait a Skype group that I would Skype my thoughts to every once in a while.

那一定是个特别激动人心的夜晚。

That must have a pretty exciting night.

是啊，确实如此。

Yeah, it was.

我当时不在现场，也没在礼堂里，就在酒店房间里看着比赛，偶尔通过Skype发点我的看法。

I'm not at the place, not at the auditorium, but I was in a hotel room watching and I was just Skyping my thoughts occasionally.

不过，那晚确实很精彩，能参与其中真是太棒了。

But yeah, was exciting and it was great to be a part of it.

他是个非常出色的选手。

And he's a great player.

可以说，那天晚上他是桌面上最强的 tournament 玩家。

Arguably, was the best tournament player at that table that night.

他线上和现场比赛的经验都很丰富。

He had a lot of experience online and live.

他邀请我做这件事，我真的很受宠若惊，因为据我所知，这还是头一回有人被专门请来这么做。

And it was just really flattering to be asked by him to do that because, as far as I know, that was the only time anyone's ever been asked to specifically do that, you know, as far as I know.

那你有没有听到什么特别劲爆、能跟我们分享的内幕？

So did you pick up anything like super juicy that you can tell us about?

确实有一些我觉得可能相关的细节。

There was, you know, there were things that I thought were probably relevant.

问题是，样本量太小了，这才是主要的困难。

The thing is, you know, it was such a small sample size that, you know, that was the main problem.

我们手头只有几手之前WSOP的录像片段。

It's like we had a few hands, you know, from the from the previous WSOP footage.

你懂的。

You know?

我主要关注那些我认为最可能展现关键、实用模式的玩家。

And I focused on the the players that I thought would be likely to have the most relevant or the most the most meaningful and and practical patterns.

你知道的。

You know?

我重点关注了那些线下经验最少、牌技最生疏的玩家，因为我觉得从他们身上最容易找到突破。

I focused on the players that were least experienced live and least experienced playing wise because I thought that would be the biggest payoff.

有几套模式我觉得挺靠谱的，还专门写了两篇博客文章分享过。

And there were a few there were a few patterns I thought were reliable, and I actually wrote a couple blog posts about it.

但说实话，我和阿米尔都清楚，能找到什么颠覆性发现的可能性微乎其微。

But, you know, the problem was, you know, and Amir and I both agreed it was a long shot that we'd find anything, you know, that would be a big game changer.

他主要是想把这方面的可能性查一查，因为他之前确实见过一些东西——具体是什么我现在有点记不清了。

It was more like he wanted to cover that base, you know, because he had actually seen a I think he had seen I can't remember now.

他见过我几年前对上一届WSOP冠军皮乌斯·海恩斯做的分析，我从他身上发现了一个相当稳定的信号。

He had seen an analysis I did of a previous WSOP champ, Pius Hines, where I found a pretty reliable behavior from him, you know, a couple years before.

大概是2011年吧，我注意到他有个特别稳定的眼神小动作。

I think that was 2011, I think, where I found a pretty reliable eye contact tell from him.

所以当时的想法是，如果我能找到类似那种程度的线索，只要他运气好碰上合适的局面，就有可能带来重大突破。

And so, you know, I think the thought was if I found anything remotely similar similar to that, it could be a, you know, significant game changer if he got in the right position.

可惜的是，阿米尔在决赛桌的大部分时间里筹码都很少。

Unfortunately, Amir was pretty short stacked for most of the final table.

他早期拿到一手牌就彻底崩了，之后几乎整个比赛都只能选择全压或弃牌。

He got one hand early on that crippled him, so he was basically in shove or fold mode, pre flop for most of the game.

就算我真的有特别可靠的读牌信号——其实我也没有，这些信号根本没机会派上用场。

Even if I had a super reliable tell, which I didn't really it wouldn't have a chance to come into play.

你有没有遇到过这种情况？你发了一篇文章指出某人的习惯性动作，对方事后是感谢你帮他们发现错误，还是特别生气，觉得你把他们的老底都抖给了全世界？

Do you get those players, so you release an article like that showing someone's tell, do they thank you afterwards for pointing a mistake out that they were making, or are they really angry that you've just informed the whole world what they do wrong?

我从来没听说谁因此对我有意见。

Well, I've never really had anybody say anything bad about it.

我发过不少对玩家的分析。

I've posted quite a few analysis of people.

我觉得，我提到的那些东西，他们自己多半早就意识到了。

My thought is most of the time, the things I'm talking about, they probably already figure out on their You know?

比如，我写过一篇关于西尔万·卢西的博客，他是2013年WSOP决赛桌上的法国选手。

Like, for example, I wrote a blog post about Sylvain Lucely, who was the French player at the two thousand thirteen WSOP final table.

我写过一篇博客，分析了我觉得他可能有的几个行为习惯，当时我对这些观察还挺有把握的。

I wrote a blog post about some potential tells for him that I thought, you know, I had a good I had I had pretty good confidence were behavioral patterns for him.

我还给他发了条推特，他回我说：‘谢谢你的分析。’

And I tweeted at him and he was like, Oh, thanks for the write up.

我不确定那是不是他本人回复的，不过听说他之后一下子火了起来。

I don't know if that was even actually him, but I think he said he was kind of popular immediately after that.

但我从来没人跟我说过任何负面的话。

But I've never had anybody say anything bad to me.

我觉得相反，他们反而会感谢，毕竟这些毛病其实并不难改。

I think if anything, they would appreciate it because it's not like these things are really that hard to fix.

很多时候，他们只是没意识到自己有这些盲点。

I think a lot of times they're just blind spots.

比如那个P。

For example, the P.

还有那个S。

S.

我写过关于眼神交流的那篇关于海因茨的事。

Heinz thing I wrote about the eye contact.

我感觉，他可能在我注意到之前就已经知道了。

It's like, I have a feeling like he either was aware of that before I noticed it.

有人告诉了他，比如朋友提醒他，或者他看了我的文章，然后说，哦，原来如此。

Somebody told him, you know, a friend told him or something, you know, or he saw mine and he was like, oh, okay.

我以后不会再这样了。

I won't do that anymore.

关键是要意识到这些细节，因为很多玩家其实都有盲点。

And, you know, it's just a matter of being aware of these things because I think a lot of times players have a blind spot, you know.

要时刻留意自己所有的行为表现，真的很难。

It's like, it's really hard to keep track of all your behavioral stuff.

毕竟，场上发生的事情太多了。

I mean, there's a lot of things going on, you know.

你得下注，还得观察对手，同时盯着牌面。

It's like betting, you're trying to observe your opponent a little bit, you're watching the board.

这么多因素同时在起作用。

You got all these factors going on.

扑克牌局本身就很复杂，这么多细节，很容易让人出现盲点，就算是老手也一样。

Mean, poker hand's pretty complex with all these points of that that could, you know, easily lead to somebody having a blind spot, even an experienced player, you know.

但我觉得这没什么好丢脸的。

But I think it's, you know, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

一旦你意识到这一点，其实就很容易堵住那个漏洞了，不管它是什么。

I think once you realize that, it's like it's pretty easy to shut that down wherever whatever that leak is, you know.

我觉得可能就是这个原因，从来没人对我发过火，他们大概只会说，哦，明白了。

I think anybody that's probably the reason why nobody has ever gotten mad at me because I think they would just be like, Oh, okay.

我从中学到了教训，以后不会再这样了。

Well, I learned from that and I won't do that anymore.

对手要是以为还能拿这个套路来对付我，那可就真被我耍了，因为我早把这漏洞补上了，对吧？

An opponent thinks they're going to do that, then the joke would be on them because they probably fixed that leak, right?

对。

Yeah.

所以

So

你知道吗，扑克里最让人烦的一件事，就是有那么几个玩家，每次行动前都要拖很久。

You know, one of the most irritating things in poker is there are certain few players who tank for a really long time before acting.

我觉得这很大程度上是为了不暴露任何小动作，比如时间上的线索之类的。

And I think a lot of that does have to do with not giving away any tells, know, maybe timing tells or whatever.

他们每次推筹码的动作，都一模一样，一点变化都没有。

And they'll move their chips in, you know, the exact same way every time.

现在都快成这样了，就那么几个人，动不动就磨上半天。

It's almost gotten to the point where there's just a few certain players who just tank for ever.

你对这个有什么看法吗？

Do you have any thoughts on that?

除了觉得看着特别难受，我也同意。

Other than finding it really hard to watch, I agree.

我觉得部分原因是为了避免暴露时间上的线索，因为如果你做决定的速度比别人快或慢，理论上就可能被利用，别人能从中看出点门道。

I think part of it's an effort to limit the bed timing tells because once you make a decision more immediately than another decision, it can theoretically be exploitable because somebody could theoretically find some information on that.

因为立刻跟注和立刻下注是两种最关键的延迟模式。

Because immediate calls and immediate bets are two of the most important bed timing patterns.

你明白吧？

You know?

当有人立刻下注或立刻跟注时，最容易从中获取信息。

That they're where the most information can be drawn from when somebody makes an immediate bet or an immediate call.

所以，对于一个认真打球、面对顶尖对手的玩家来说，不想让自己暴露在这种可被利用的漏洞里，这完全可以理解。

So, you know, it's understandable that that somebody, you know, a really serious player playing against really serious competition, he doesn't wanna open himself up to that exploitation.

他们的想法就是：好吧，我干脆让每个决定都花上我最长的那个决定所需要的时间，这就是他们的心态。

You know, it's kind of like, well, I'm going make every decision take as long as my longest longest decision needs to be, you know, that's kind of what what the mindset they're in.

我以前也这样过。

And I've been there before too.

就是觉得，我不想仓促做决定，那样容易泄露信息，让人觉得我的选择很明显什么的，不管我最后选了什么。

It's kind like, I'm like, you know, I don't want to potentially rush the decision and give away information that way by making it seem like it was obvious or whatever, you know, that whatever my decision was.

所以，动机就在这里：尽量花上和我最长决策一样多的时间。

So it's like, the motivation is there to take as long as as as your longest decision needs to be.

但事情发展到后来，就像我们看到的那样，简直有点荒唐了。

But then it gets, you know, it gets to be pretty ridiculous as as we've seen.

对吧？

You know?

所以我觉得确实需要某种方式来限制每手牌的思考时间，毕竟我最近刚参加了一个300美元的赛事，那是我一年半以来打的第二场牌局，每手牌拖的时间实在太离谱了。

It's like that's why, you know, I I'm fully behind some way to limit that amount of time because it's just I mean, I I even playing in these I just played in the $300 tournament the other day and it was like the second tournament I've played in a year and a half and it was just ridiculous how long every hand took.

这些玩家其实水平都挺普通的，但我猜他们是模仿了那些电视转播里的职业比赛，对吧？

These are just pretty amateur players too, but I think it's kinda like they're emulating what they see, you know, in in a lot of these televised tournaments, you know?

特里莎上周提到了一篇你发给她的文章，讲的是玩家推筹码的方式比面部表情更能透露信息。

Trisha actually mentioned an article the other week that I think you'd sent her regarding the importance of how people push the chips in rather than how people look on their faces in terms of tells.

你对这个观点有什么看法？

Do you have any comments on that one?

是的，那是斯坦福大学做过的一项研究。

Yeah, that was a study that they did at Stanford.

我觉得从玩家下注的方式里，确实能获取到可靠且有意义的信息。

I think there are reliable, meaningful information you can gain from the way people bet.

总的来说，这种趋势的参考价值其实挺有限的，平均来看，信息量也不大。

I think in general, it's a pretty weakly reliable tendency or the information isn't that great, you know, on average.

但我认为还是能捕捉到一些信息的，尤其是针对每个玩家自身的独特习惯。

But there I think there is information there, and there can definitely be information, you know, per player player specific information.

我觉得这也是为什么很多玩家做事都特别谨慎的原因之一。

But I think, yeah, I think that's another reason you see players being very deliberate with their actions.

你知道的，他们花的时间特别长。

You know, they take a long time.

他们下注时动作特别慢、特别有条理，就是怕不小心泄露了什么信息。

They are very slow and methodical with how they put the chips in the pot because they don't want to potentially give away any information.

其实我之前合作过一位玩家，名字我就不说了，我注意到他有个小动作——他往池里推筹码的方式，是唯一一个我能察觉到他有变化的地方。

And actually, I'll say I worked with one player who I won't name, but, one of the things I noticed on him was something he did where he, you know, he the way he was putting his chips in the pot, it was the only thing I can notice on him where I felt like there was variance in what he was doing.

这其实和那项研究挺吻合的，因为他动作不够流畅。

And it kind of fit actually with that study because it was a more non smooth movement.

他动作不流畅的时候，往往对应的是诈唬或者弱牌。

The unsmooth movements were more correlated to bluffs or weak hands, when he bet.

这跟那项研究说的内容还挺吻合的。

So it was kind of related to what that study was saying.

对那个玩家来说，这可是我唯一发现的线索。

And for that player, that was the only thing I was able to find.

我跟他提了这事，他说：哦，确实如此。

And when I brought it up to him, he said, oh, yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

我以为自己在行为上已经做到很均衡了，但从来没想过，自己放筹码的动作其实有规律可循。

You know, I I I thought I was really balanced with how I behaved, but I never really thought about, like, the actual movement and how I put the chips into the pot.

你明白吧？

You know?

这就像个盲区，他平时在其他方面都特别注意保持均衡，唯独这个动作，他根本没怎么留意，也没花时间去调整。

That was one it was kinda like a blind spot kinda thing again where he it was it was one area where he really had focused on a lot of other areas and trying to remain balanced, but that was one area where he hadn't really thought about that much at all and hadn't spent time focusing on keeping that balanced.

所以在家庭牌局里，这点可能特别关键。

So for home games, this could be really, really important.

如果你每周都跟同一群人玩，一旦发现某个人的小动作或弱点，很可能就决定了他是赚还是赔。

And if you're playing the same guys every week and you pick up a tell on somebody or someone has a weakness like that, it could really be the difference between them having a profitable and unprofitable year.

那当然了。

Oh, for sure.

我平时玩的是两五块的牌局，还有强制加注，所以有时候注码会比较大。

I mean, I play in this regular two five game, has a straddle so it plays a bit bigger sometimes.

不过呢，我跟这些常客玩了挺久的，差不多快两年了吧，一直都在记他们的习惯。

But, you know, I play with a lot of regular players and I've been taking notes on them, you know, for the last year or two, almost two years, I think.

有些人吧。

Some of them.

我收集到的这些小动作，真的特别准，特别管用。

And, yeah, I mean, like some of the tells I've collected on these guys are, you know, really reliable and really powerful.

这些细节经常让我决定要不要跟大注，或者干脆弃牌。

I mean, like, they make the difference for me, like making a big call or folding, you know, in a lot of spots.

当然了，对有些玩家来说，这些信息的重要性远超过其他人。

And, you know, for obviously, for some players, it's much more meaningful than others.

那些最明显的玩家，他们的习惯简直太外露了，简直难以想象他们还是常客。

Like, the players that it's the most meaningful for are just, like, way more obvious than they should be, you know, considering that they're regular players.

不过，这确实能带来巨大优势。

But yeah, it can make a big difference.

我记了很多笔记，这些细节直接影响我的决定——是跟注、弃牌还是加注，全看这些线索。

I've got many notes I've taken where these kinds of things play into my decision, and I either call or fold or raise or whatever based on those things.

在世界系列赛期间，我经常参加一些业余玩家比例很高的赛事。

A lot of times during the World Series, I'll play events where it'll have a very high proportion of, you know, amateur or more recreational players.

一旦你抓住他们的习惯，那绝对是百分之百可靠，稳赚不赔。

And when you get a good tell on them, I mean, it's 100%, you can take it to the bank.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

我觉得，那种感觉特别棒，可以说是最好的体验之一。

I mean, that's the greatest feeling, I think, one of the best feelings.

当然，和强手过招并赢下来，也一样很有成就感。

I mean, it's good to play strong competition too and beat them.

但当你能准确看透一个人，觉得自己在偷偷占便宜的时候，那种感觉真的很棒，让整个牌局都变得特别刺激——你心里清楚，这种信息本不该你知道，可现在你却能用它来获利。

But it's definitely enjoyable to have a really nice read on someone where you just feel like you're getting away with something and it makes the game so much more exciting where you're like, Oh, that's information I should never have had, but now I can use it.

有很多玩家平时主要在线上打牌，但也会专门跑来参加世界系列赛。

And there'll be a lot of guys out there who play pretty much just online, but then they travel to the World Series.

他们真该好好看看你的分析，仔细想想这些细节，因为如果你没打过现场牌局，肯定缺乏相应的本事，对吧？

And it's really worthwhile them looking at your work and thinking over this, because if you're not used to playing live, you're definitely not going to have the skill set, are you?

比如P.就是其中一个例子。

That was one of the things with, for example, P.

S.

S.

海恩斯，我研究过他的行为。

Hynes, when I studied his behavior.

我之所以特别关注他，甚至专门花时间去研究他，是因为我知道他在线上经验丰富，但几乎没怎么打过现场比赛。

The reason I focused so much on him, and I actually went on my way to study him, I knew he was an experienced online player, but that he hadn't played much live hardly at all.

正因如此，我才很有把握，觉得一定能从他身上发现一些破绽。

That was the reason I kind of felt confident that I would find something on him.

我找到他的破绽时并不觉得意外，毕竟我早就知道他的背景。

And I wasn't too surprised when I found something on him because I knew he had that background.

确实，很多线上玩家常常低估了这些细节的重要性。

Yeah, think it's a lot of online players sometimes underestimate the importance of these things.

能不能看出扑克中的微表情，其实没那么关键。

I don't think it's super valuable to be able to spot poker tells even necessarily.

真正有价值的是意识到这些细节可能重要，并且能控制好自己的小动作。

Think the main value comes in just being aware that it can be important and being able to limit your own tells.

很多线上玩家，哪怕技术再高，也容易忽略这一点，因为他们根本没养成这方面的意识。

Because I think a lot of online players, as skilled as some of them are, that can be a blind spot for them where they're just not used to thinking about that stuff.

他们在策略上当然很厉害，但完全没意识到自己在无意中泄露了那么多信息。

They're very skilled in the strategy, obviously, but they're just not aware of all the many ways they could potentially be leaking information.

而如果对方是像菲尔·艾维那样的线下高手，情况就完全不同了——他们能捕捉到线上玩家自己都察觉不到的破绽，而这恰恰是线上玩家的盲区。

And then, you know, if somebody's super skilled live wise, you know, like Phil Ivy or somebody, even if, you know or or some other player, it's like that can make a big difference because they could be spotting something that the one you know, the online only player, it just doesn't know that he's giving away, it's just a blind spot, you know.

从防守的角度来看，与其费力去读懂别人，不如先搞清楚自己不该做什么，尤其是在你缺乏线下经验的情况下。

And I guess that's something in terms of defensive strategy, it's probably going to be easier to know what you shouldn't do yourself than necessarily pick up enough of that information from other people, if you're in experience life.

确实，对于刚从线上转到现场的玩家来说，更重要的是防守，也就是尽量减少自己的小动作。

Yeah, would definitely, I would think for an online focused player who's new to live, the much more important thing is defensive, is eliminating your own tells, reducing them as much as possible.

等你更适应了，再开始留意别人的信号。

Once you get more comfortable, you can start looking for tells.

但我觉得那只是锦上添花。

But I would say that's kind of like the icing on the cake.

相比之下，不了解自己的小动作会让你更容易被利用，风险也大得多，远胜于去研究别人的行为。

But I think not being aware of your own tells opens you up to exploitation a lot more and has a much bigger potential downside you know, studying other people's tells.

说到这个，比如玩家往池子里推筹码的方式，如果你想找一个每次动作都一模一样的例子，可以看看大卫·多克·桑兹的视频，他推筹码的样子特别像起重机在动。

Yeah, I think speaking of like, you know, going back to the way people move their chips in the pot, if people want to see somebody who I feel like moves the chips the exact same way every time, they should check out maybe some videos of David Doc Sands because he has this like almost crane looking movement he does with his chips.

你有没有注意到这个细节？或者有什么看法？反正他就是这么做的。

I don't know if you've noticed that or if you have any thoughts on it, but seems like that's what he does.

我会去看看。

I'll check that out.

对。

Yeah.

我最近没看过他的比赛。

I haven't watched him recently.

我没看过任何他出镜的视频。

I haven't seen any video with him.

这倒是挺有意思的。

That's a good

如果你看他打球，就会发现他有个特别的习惯。

you Well, if you watch him, you're gonna see that he has this certain way.

我听说有人讲，光是看他这样动筹码，就已经是他们见过最让人崩溃的画面了。

And I actually heard somebody say that just watching him do that was the most tilt inducing thing they'd ever seen.

那他等于双倍占便宜了。

He's got a double strength from it then.

他既在平衡自己的牌力，又在扰乱对手的心态。

He's balancing his range and upsetting his opponents.

现在我真得去看看了，不过我可不会学他那样。

Now I gotta see this, I wouldn't incorporate it.

可能跟我不小心看过的一个场景挺像的。

Maybe it's similar to something I saw.

我见过一次，是在EPT锦标赛上。

I I saw this, it was somebody in an EPT tournament.

他就是那样做的。

He had this.

我从没见过有人这么往底池里放筹码的，太奇怪了。

It was the weirdest way of setting chips in the pot I've ever seen.

我还发了条推特提到这事。

And I tweeted about it.

我当时就想，这到底是什么操作？

I was like, what is this?

他整个人特别夸张，把手伸得老长，越过桌子，啪地一下把筹码全扔进去。

And he was just making this big like, he would set his hand out like, yeah, I think maybe it is the same thing because he, like, extended his arm out over the table and just released his chips with a big plop.

对。

Yep.

就是他。

That's him.

而且当时那样子真是……

And and it was like was

手伸得离桌子有一脚那么远。

like a foot over the table.

对，当时他在一列火车上。

Yeah, was in a train.

然后他就这么一松手，啪嗒一声全撒进去了。

And then he just released it with a plop.

肯定是同一个人，因为我看过，当时我就想，她这是在干嘛？

Must be the same thing because I saw it, I was like, what the hell is she doing?

但他确实是个厉害的玩家。

But he was a really good player.

现在想不起他叫什么了，但那场面实在太滑稽了。

Can't remember who it was now, but it was just so silly.

我当时就想，这是新潮流吗？

Was like, is this the new thing?

或者可能还真是。

Or maybe it is.

我觉得我们说的肯定是同一个人。

I feel confident we're talking about the same person.

没错，他技术上确实厉害，但老是故意输，还老玩那个吊 crane 的把戏。

And yeah, he's a great player technically, but he tanks a lot, and he does the crane thing.

所以他特别擅长把人气得失去理智。

So he he's definitely gifted at putting people on tilt.

你是不是说，我觉得可能是大卫·基塔伊？

Are you it was I think it was it might have been Davidi Kitai.

可能是他。

It might have been him.

他在推特上的名字叫 Kipbull。

The he's Kipbull on Twitter.

我觉得可能就是他吧。

I think it might have been yeah.

我之前根本没见过有人能一直这么干，这简直成了他的标志，太奇怪了。

I was just I hit I'd I'd never seen anybody do that consistently where that seemed to be a thing he was doing that is just so weird.

对我来说，这感觉就像故意逗人笑、引人注意的那种表演。

It was almost like it was almost like to me, would I would use that if I was, like, trying to make somebody laugh and get a reaction or something.

其实我好一阵子没想这事儿了，不过也许我下次打球时也试试。

I kind of I of I hadn't thought about in a while, actually, but maybe I'll try to do that next to my play.

看你回看那些视频，能说说你是怎么找到这些资料的吗？数据库、花的时间，还有写这些书你到底做了哪些工作？

Thinking about the watching the videos, if you could talk through how you found this information, the database, the hours, what sort of work did you put in for these books?

是的，投入了大量时间。

Yeah, I put in a large amount.

第一本书更多是靠经验积累，那时候我还没系统整理过。

On the first book, it was much more my first book was much more experience driven.

更像是把这些年来我一直在思考和记录的东西汇总起来。

It was more like a culmination of things I'd thought about and taken notes about over the past years.

但第二本书《言语扑克信号》我花的时间长得多，花了大量精力搜集手牌记录，连续几个月观看电视转播的扑克节目，专门挑那些有业余玩家的节目来收集素材。

But the, the second book Verbal Poker Tells, I spent a lot a much longer time researching that and collecting the hand histories in that one and I and I watched you know for for months I watched probably like hundreds of hours of televised footage just collecting with a focus on poker shows that had amateur players in it.

我花了很长时间收集这些言语行为的实例，就是为了建立一个丰富的数据库，方便后续分析。在整理过程中，我还自己设计了一套分类系统，用来区分不同类型的言语行为及其背后的原因。

I spent a long time collecting all these instances of verbal behavior just so I would have a good database of verbal behavior and and things to talk about, And while I was logging them, I came up with a system of categorizing verbal behavior and a system for why I was doing it.

同时，我也顺手记录了一些肢体行为，一并存进数据库里。

I was categorizing some physical behavior as I went just to have in the database.

我自创了一套编码体系，对应各种不同的言语表达、肢体动作和行为模式。

So it was like these codes I created just on my own that would, correspond to different behaviors, different verbal behaviors, different statements, and different physical behaviors.

这样以后再翻看表格时，就能快速找到我想查的任何行为。

So then it would make it easier to go back and go through this spreadsheet and, you know, kind of find any behavior I look for.

可以轻松定位到这些行为出现的具体案例和场景。

I could find examples of it and find, you know, where it occurred.

如果需要，我还能进一步深入研究这些行为是如何呈现的。

And, you know, if I wanted to, I could do a more in-depth study of of how these things were showing up.

这真的帮了大忙。

So that was really helpful.

花了不少时间才建起来。

It took a long time to build.

我连续八个月都在做《言语扑克信号》这本书。

Like, I I worked on Verbal Poker Tells for eight months straight.

那段时间我每周差不多都投入四五十个小时，就干这一件事。

Like that was all I was working on for like, you know, forty to fifty hours a week.

确实费了不少劲。

It was a lot of work.

现在我觉得这事儿值了，因为我开始想到其他能用这个数据库的地方，毕竟我有这么多录像记录，正琢磨怎么更好地利用它。

I think it's paying off now because I'm starting to think of other uses for building this database, you know, just because I have all this footage log and trying to think of other ways to make use of it.

确实费了不少劲。

It was a lot of work.

我不确定从经济上讲划不划算，但过程很有趣，也学到了很多东西。

I'm not really sure if was really worth it financially, but it was fun and I learned a lot.

但对于那些玩扑克的人来说，扎克已经替你们把活儿干完了。

But for the poker players out there, you know, Zach's done the work for you already.

你们没必要花几百个小时看视频、读一堆书，直接走捷径吧，我觉得这是最好的建议。

You don't have to watch those hundreds of hours, read the books and take the shortcut, I guess, is the advice.

是的，写这本书的过程中我学到了很多，这点值得说一下。

Yeah, I learned a lot writing it, for what it's worth.

说实话，我没想到光是收集资料、写东西就能学到这么多，但确实收获很大。

I mean, didn't think I would learn as much as I did just collecting information and writing about it, but I learned a lot.

你现在还有一章内容会收录在乔纳森·利特尔的《精通无限制德州扑克》里，这本书六月就要出版了。

Now, you also have a chapter that's going to be in Jonathan Little's Excelling at No Limit Hold'em book, is coming out in June.

能简单给我们讲讲你那章写的是什么内容吗？

Can you just give us a little summary of what you wrote about in that chapter?

当然，你们也都各写了一章。

Sure, as do you guys.

每个人都有自己的章节。

Everyone's got a chapter.

对，我写的是个概览性的内容。

Yeah, I wrote about, it was just kind of a an overview.

就是简要总结了一下我觉得在牌桌上最值得关注的几个关键点。

It was kind of a short overview of everything I felt were the most important things to look for at the table.

就是综合考虑各种情况，不管是高手还是新手，全都涵盖进去了。

You know, it was kind of like taking everything into account across the board, like skilled players, inexperienced players, whatever.

基本上就是把我认为最重要的那些信号和观察要点做了一个概览。

It was kind of just an overview of the things I felt were the most important tells basically and things to look for.

所以这算是

So it's kind of

一个

a

对于

For

打算去参加系列赛的人，拿这本书看看，至少能有个快速参考指南。

people going out to the series, they can pick up this and that'll give them at least a little bit of a cheat sheet, it sounds like.

没错， definitely。

Yeah, for sure.

我觉得这很好地总结了哪些信息重要、哪些行为信号关键，以及为什么它们重要——虽然这么说有点自夸，但确实如此。

Think it's, to toot my own horn too much, I thought it was a really good overview of what information is important, what behavioral information is important and why it's important.

它让人理解了这些点为什么重要，而不仅仅是告诉你是重要的。

Kind of an understanding of the little bit, you know, why is this important, not just this is important.

所以我觉得，在这么短的时间内，把所有这些内容讲得清晰又到位，真的很不错。

So I thought it was a good brief explanation of all those things in a pretty short span of time.

而且相比我第一本书，这部分内容可能更有帮助，因为自2012年写第一本书以来，我对一些行为的理解已经有了一些变化。

It also was, kind of more probably helpful than even maybe my first book because I think some of my thoughts on some of the behavior has evolved a bit since I wrote my first book in 2012.

这更像是对那些内容的更新版本。

It's kind of like a more up to date version of some of those things.

我觉得我对某些问题的表述方式也略有不同，毕竟最近我对这些问题有了新的思考。

I think I talk about some of the things a little bit differently just because I've thought about things differently recently.

我觉得这确实是关于扑克微表情的一个非常好的总体介绍。

I think it's a good, definitely a good overview of Poker Tells in general.

如果线上玩家打算去参加现场赛事，我记得我们之前聊天时你提到，你还在制作一些视频，直接展示这些行为表现。

And then if online players are thinking of going out the series, I know we were speaking before the show, you mentioned that you've got videos that you're making as well that are actually showing the behaviours.

你能给我们讲讲这些吗？

Can you explain to us about those?

对，我有几个免费的YouTube视频，任何人都可以看。

Right, well I've got a few free YouTube videos on YouTube channel that anybody can watch.

大概有十二个左右，不算多。

I think I've got like 12 or something, not too many.

里面有些是世界扑克系列赛的实拍片段。

You know, some of it's including WSOP footage.

很多人可能会觉得挺有意思。

People might find it interesting.

这些视频都发布在我的YouTube频道，应该是youtube.com/readingpokertells。

And that's just on my YouTube channel, which is like youtube.com/readingpokertells I think.

我现在正在做的是。

And then I'm working now.

我网站上已经上传了几份PDF指南，是配合一些电视转播的扑克赛事片段做的，你可以一边看在线视频一边读这些指南，我会帮你留意那些值得关注的行为细节和关键场景。

I've got a couple guides up that are PDF guides on my site that actually are accompaniments to some televised tournament some tournament footage that the guides are basically like you can read them as you watch the online footage and I bring your attention, I bring the reader's attention to interesting behavioral spots and situations.

所以我已经上传了几个，接下来可能还会再做几个。

So I got a couple of those up and I may make some more soon.

不过我觉得这些指南挺独特又实用的，可能比我还写过的其他东西都更实用，因为它们特别聚焦在真实玩家和真实行为上，你能亲眼看到这些行为，也能读到我为什么觉得它们重要，就算你不认同我，也能自己得出结论。

But yeah, thought those guides were pretty unique and practical, think, like probably more practical than a lot of other stuff I've written just because they're focused so much more on real players and real behavior and you can see for yourself the behavior and you can read my thoughts anyway on why I think it's important and you can reach your own conclusions too if disagree with me or whatever.

所有内容都摆在那儿让你看，我还会具体说明这些行为出现的场景，如果你当时是对手，这些信息可能会对你有帮助。

It's all just there for you to see and I also talk about the specific situation where the behavior is showing up and it might be useful if you were maybe the opponent in that hand or something like that.

所以，我最近的工作重心都放在了更注重实用性的内容上。

So yeah, my more recent work has been on making stuff that's much more practically focused.

打现场牌的时候，我也会记笔记，记录哪些行为对我有实际帮助，为什么这些行为影响了我的决策。

And when I'm playing live too, I take notes on things on like why why was that behavior, practically useful for me and why did it help sway a decision I was making.

最近我还和一个人合作，拿到了一些扑克比赛的录像，打算基于这些素材制作一些扑克教学视频。

And I've also recently partnered with somebody with some poker footage and I'm going to be making some poker videos out of that, some instructional poker videos.

这算是个长期项目。

That's kind of a long term thing.

制作起来可能要花不少时间，所以我现在不太想多谈。

Might take me a while to get them out, so I don't want to talk too much about them.

不过呢，那得等以后再说。

But yeah, that'll be down the line a bit.

大家都知道，现在网上信息多的是。

So there's information out there everybody.

如果你在世界系列赛之前都没看过这些内容，那赢了也不冤。

So if you haven't looked at that before the World Series, you don't deserve to win.

这些都是免费的信息。

It's free information.

该做的功课得做足。

Do your homework.

没错，确实没理由不去做，我也觉得是这样。

Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no reason not to, you know, and I I don't.

我不喜欢把这些问题想得太复杂。

I don't like to overestimate these things.

一旦你了解了这些，其实要避免暴露小动作并不难。

It's like if once you know about it, it's pretty easy to to prevent giving away tells and stuff.

既然有这信息，没理由不去看看。

Know, there's no reason to not look into it.

想想看。

Think

这游戏靠的是细微优势，就像我和特里西亚做的那些工作一样。心态是一种优势，读出对手的微表情是另一种优势，很多人其实都想利用这些，毕竟这些加起来最后真的能决定胜负，对吧？

it's a game of small edges and this is just another just like the work me and Tricia do, you know, the mindset is an edge in the game, tells her another edge in the game that people really want to be taking advantage of because it does all add up in the end, doesn't it?

对，我也这么觉得。

Yeah, think so.

每个小细节都很重要，认真的玩家都在找这些细微的优势。而很多优势其实来自对手经验不足——尤其是那些容易暴露的小动作，我觉得这才是读牌信号最有用的地方。

Every little, you know, I think serious players are looking for every little small edge, you know, and lot of that edge comes, you know, comes against your stems from, you know, your more inexperienced competition, you know, and so that's where Tells can play the most part, I think.

那对于想持续关注你、了解你发布的资料和内容的人，他们该去哪里找你呢？

So for people who want to keep up with you and they want to, you know, find out about your materials and things that you have available, where should they go to find you?

直接上我的网站 readingpokertells.com 就行。

Oh, just at my site readingpokertells.com.

顺便提一下，我网站上有一篇博客，记录了我和埃利奥特你一起做的那次催眠治疗实录。

And it might be a good place to mention that I've got that blog post on there with a session I did with you, Elliot, where I did a little hypnotherapy session.

去年我在拉斯维加斯和你做了一次单独的 session，还是前年？

One single session with you when I was in Vegas last year, or was it a year before?

是去年。

Oh, last year.

对。

Yeah.

应该是去年吧。

Last year, I think.

没错。

Yeah.

那次其实特别深入。

So it was really in-depth, actually.

我对你的总结印象特别深。

I was really impressed with your write up.

我觉得你讲得比我清楚多了。

I think you explained it better than I do.

真的很感谢那次分享。

Really appreciated that one.

说得有点多啦，吉恩。

Oversharing, Gene.

我们可不能让你就这么走了，你得跟我们说说。

And then we can't let you go without you telling us.

你看过的职业扑克视频，可能比谁都多。

So you've probably seen more video poker footage than anyone else.

我们是个心态类播客。

We're a mindset podcast.

你见过最崩溃的案例是什么？有没有哪个特别让你震惊的玩家行为？

What's the worst tilt you've seen or one that really stands out in your mind where someone's behavior is just shocking?

天哪。

Oh, geez.

要说印象深刻的，我第一个想到的就是WSOP主赛事最后剩几个人的时候，那次大爆发。

Well, one of the major ones that come to mind is just that huge blow up from, like, the WSFP when they're all the the main event where there are only a few players left.